Guild Raid, Rewards for 50, 60 70?

[Ogrebe]

In the update note it said that the boss of the 5 guild raid zone would drop Mold that can be turned in for arrmor..What type of arrmor are we talking about. You know if it is tressuesd arrmor, the guild raid zones are going zones are going to be empty. The arrmor from the boss mobs would have to be high end Legndary or higher to get much interest.If the rewards is less than the 1 group instances rewards then most guilds, won't use these zones. Even new guilds becasue they can get better rewards with 1 group in the instance zones. Not saying that these zone have to deop the best loot, just have to be slightly better than what 1 single group can get from an instance.<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

I'm guess it will be around relic stats and effects.

[EQ2Playa432]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div>I'm guess it will be around relic stats and effects.<hr></blockquote>No way...it's only a grp x2 zone. I'm guessing better then treasured lower then legendary.</div>

[Kleev]

what does it being 2x have to do with anything?  you can easily go into any of the x4 zones right now with 2 groups and farm for relic drops.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Playa432 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> I'm guess it will be around relic stats and effects.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No way...it's only a grp x2 zone. I'm guessing better then treasured lower then legendary.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hah, Since when did Grpx2 have anything to do with it. Crab and Bird are Grp x2 and drop some of the best items in the game.</P> <P>If their was some semblence of proper itemization in this game I would agree, but their isn't. I doubt this will be any different.</P>

[EQ2Playa432]

It's meant for training for guild raids....either they will put a long lockout and give nice rewards, or keep it short and have not-so-good ones.<div></div>

[Pins]

<DIV>Supposedly Legendary rewards that are a bit lower than relic.  Sure they're meant as training, but honestly what training is needed for raiding that you can't do off trash in Labs or Lyceum?</DIV>

[EQ2Playa432]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div><strike>Supposedly Legendary rewards that are a bit lower than relic.  Sure they're meant as training, but </strike>honestly what training is needed for raiding that you can't do off trash in Labs or Lyceum?</div><hr></blockquote>Well if you are a t5 or t6 raiding guild coming up in the ranks you wouldn;t be able to do Labs.</div>

[Ogrebe]

<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Playa432 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div><strike>Supposedly Legendary rewards that are a bit lower than relic.  Sure they're meant as training, but </strike>honestly what training is needed for raiding that you can't do off trash in Labs or Lyceum?</div><hr></blockquote>Well if you are a t5 or t6 raiding guild coming up in the ranks you wouldn;t be able to do Labs.</div><hr></blockquote>I under stand that it is for training guilds.. .But if you know your class well and have grouped before, a raid isn't much differnce. Ya theres a few thing differnet, but it dosn't take more than 1 or 2 raids tell the person know what he should be doing.Now if the loot isn't great though most new raid guild will probably train in another raid zone that does give them good raid gear. While it is hard and they might take more deaths if it there first time raiding, once they get past that they'll have better rewards.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Playa432 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRIKE>Supposedly Legendary rewards that are a bit lower than relic.  Sure they're meant as training, but </STRIKE>honestly what training is needed for raiding that you can't do off trash in Labs or Lyceum?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well if you are a t5 or t6 raiding guild coming up in the ranks you wouldn;t be able to do Labs.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If your a t5 or t6 raid guild, then your a raid guild and thus should already be trained.

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>I also find it funny that they posted the Spoiler/Trick to every fight right off the bat. Kinda ruins it a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since when do any raids have Charm AE's? Knockback, and or a Combo mob with all the ones proceeding would have been better.</DIV>

[EQ2Playa432]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>I also find it funny that they posted the Spoiler/Trick to every fight right off the bat. Kinda ruins it a bit.</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>I thought that was funny as well.</div>

[MrMartin]

<P>OMG, finally they change this! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>My guild have been waiting for this since they started to scale the raids more then 6 months ago.</P> <P>This is perfect for the smaller guilds that have a huge lvl range (30-70) that want to do something together<BR>and actually get something other then lvl 20 treasured gear. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>Right now you wont even see a rare drop. So even that is a big boost.</P> <P>Very very good SOE.<BR>Lets just hope that you fix the status reward thing for end boss in zone too. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SeregWethrin]

<DIV>This is a big help on the PVP servers as contested mobs are much harder to do and the qeynos guilds dont have all the needed classes so it allows us to practice tactics on these types of mobs to find ways around our weakness of not having every class type availible.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>SeregWethrin wrote:<div>This is a big help on the PVP servers as contested mobs are much harder to do and the qeynos guilds dont have all the needed classes so it allows us to practice tactics on these types of mobs to find ways around our weakness of not having every class type availible.</div><hr></blockquote>There are some guilds on non-PvP servers (and even on servers other than the 2 RP preferred, but moreso on the RP ones) that only raid with one city's classes.  You might want to seek some of them to find out what they do for tactics.  (hint: Legion of the White Rose on Guk only has Qeynos based characters and raids rather successfully with that challenge)<div></div>

[Riversideblues]

you know what's sadill be 10p(toanyone on nek) that these raids are not only going to look better, but are going to be way more fun than ANY raid we have in t7 period.  i'm all down with sony helping out the casual raider, that's all well and goodbut we've been done the raiding content for a very long time and all we have left is a very bugged mob, we could really use some high end content...<div></div>

[Vorlak]

<DIV>I didnt see a mob that mem wipes in there or teleports tank around...</DIV>

[Sirlutt]

i am hoping it serves as a stepping stone for guilds to get into some raiding.. right now its difficult to get geared up to raid T7 without being able to raid T6 and some of the easier T7 stuff effectively.. this should bridge that gap a little.Its also going to be good for those guilds who just want to raid a little, casually.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

Oh .. I'd like to add that I am REALLY hoping these raids give guild status.<div></div>

[Bunion]

<DIV> I am wondering how this is going to work for guilds with good and evil characters (most guilds). Do you have to have everyone near the NPC when you talk to him or can others go to the specific zone and then zone in?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bunion</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bunion wrote:<BR> <DIV> I am wondering how this is going to work for guilds with good and evil characters (most guilds). Do you have to have everyone near the NPC when you talk to him or can others go to the specific zone and then zone in?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bunion</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It'll work exactly how guild raids work right now for zoning in I bet.

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Playa432 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRIKE>Supposedly Legendary rewards that are a bit lower than relic.  Sure they're meant as training, but </STRIKE>honestly what training is needed for raiding that you can't do off trash in Labs or Lyceum?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well if you are a t5 or t6 raiding guild coming up in the ranks you wouldn;t be able to do Labs.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Instead, you'd be doing Zalak, the first encounters in Antonica, and all the other raid instanced encounters!  Same with T6.  T6 progressively got harder as you went into the zone.  There's honestly already training instances, sure they're x4, but they're still instances you can train on.

[Xarov]

hmm they are finally getting around to fixing guild raids, too bad i havent logged in for over a month now lol. at least there will be more instances to farm now lol

[Zabjade]

<font color="#66ff00"><font size="2"><font face="Comic Sans MS">I am curious about one thing on the new guild raids, I'm on a PvE server and we have members of both city in our guild, how would those in freeport get Qeynos quest etc. The reason I even ask I I have heard an unconfirmed rumor that once you get the quest you are zoned immediatly upon getting the quest. If that is not so I will appreciate if someone would clarify it for me. </font></font></font><div></div>

[Bunion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bunion wrote:<BR> <DIV> I am wondering how this is going to work for guilds with good and evil characters (most guilds). Do you have to have everyone near the NPC when you talk to him or can others go to the specific zone and then zone in?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bunion</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It'll work exactly how guild raids work right now for zoning in I bet.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How exactly does it work now? I haven't tried a guild raid since they changed it to where you are ported to the zone</P> <P> </P> <P>Bunion</P>

[Colin MacLaren]

I have waited for something like this since I hit 50 with my first toon. Smaller guilds on less populated servers tend to have problems to field a full 24 man raid on regular basis, especialy since those few players of the so called key classes are often already integrated into the higher end guilds. Now they have finally something to do if they can only field three healers on a specific evening.The drops don't have to be uber, if they drop some rare harvesables or gear compareable to post-nerf mastercrafted armor I'm fine with that. It gives smaller guilds something to do and to train on.<p>Message Edited by Colin MacLaren on <span class=date_text>07-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ogrebear wrote:<BR><BR>What type of arrmor are we talking about. You know if it is tressuesd arrmor, the guild raid zones are going zones are going to be empty. The arrmor from the boss mobs would have to be high end Legndary or higher to get much interest. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me clarify what's in the notes a bit. We'll make sure the final notes for the Game Update spell things out a bit more clearly.</P> <P>Below level 50, the bosses will drop rare harvest items.</P> <P>There are two tiers of molds: 50 to 59, and 60 to 70. These come from the bosses in the revamped guild writ raid zones.</P> <P>At each level range, there are two types of molds each for cloth, leather, chain, and plate. One type of mold can be made into gloves, boots, or helm, while the somewhat rarer one can make legs or chest.</P> <P>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid. The pieces don't have effects, but rather focus on nice stats, resists, and extra mitigation on the fighter pieces.</P> <P>These aren't relic and they aren't meant to be on par with fabled gear. Their purpose is to give beginning raiders the stats and resists to be successful as they progress to harder targets. While even some seasoned raiders may seek out certain pieces for resist gear, that's not for whom this armor is intended.</P> <P>You will be able to find fancier stuff with effects and various do-dads from group instances. We're not saying that this new gear will be the best option in every situation, especially for those who have done group instances a lot. Our intent is that it helps folks take the next step if they want to get into raiding but feel like they haven't had a good place to start.</P>

[EQ2Playa432]

Thanks for the clarification Moorgard, I hope these instances are fun! They sure sound like it.<div></div>

[Siufu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Oh .. I'd like to add that I am REALLY hoping these raids give guild status.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes please.</div>

[Ogrebe]

<div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ogrebear wrote:What type of arrmor are we talking about. You know if it is tressuesd arrmor, the guild raid zones are going zones are going to be empty. The arrmor from the boss mobs would have to be high end Legndary or higher to get much interest. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Let me clarify what's in the notes a bit. We'll make sure the final notes for the Game Update spell things out a bit more clearly.</p> <p>Below level 50, the bosses will drop rare harvest items.</p> <p>There are two tiers of molds: 50 to 59, and 60 to 70. These come from the bosses in the revamped guild writ raid zones.</p> <p>At each level range, there are two types of molds each for cloth, leather, chain, and plate. One type of mold can be made into gloves, boots, or helm, while the somewhat rarer one can make legs or chest.</p> <p>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid. The pieces don't have effects, but rather focus on nice stats, resists, and extra mitigation on the fighter pieces.</p> <p>These aren't relic and they aren't meant to be on par with fabled gear. Their purpose is to give beginning raiders the stats and resists to be successful as they progress to harder targets. While even some seasoned raiders may seek out certain pieces for resist gear, that's not for whom this armor is intended.</p> <p>You will be able to find fancier stuff with effects and various do-dads from group instances. We're not saying that this new gear will be the best option in every situation, especially for those who have done group instances a lot. Our intent is that it helps folks take the next step if they want to get into raiding but feel like they haven't had a good place to start.</p><hr></blockquote>Hmmm that about what i was thinking.. Though was worryed that you guys might have just put some tressured gear. I remeber maybe 8 or 9 month back try out though zone with my guild and we allwasy got treassured items from thouse mobs.But since it legenday i think it will be worth while now!!! thanks for Clarifing Moorgard</div>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ogrebear wrote:What type of arrmor are we talking about. You know if it is tressuesd arrmor, the guild raid zones are going zones are going to be empty. The arrmor from the boss mobs would have to be high end Legndary or higher to get much interest. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Let me clarify what's in the notes a bit. We'll make sure the final notes for the Game Update spell things out a bit more clearly.</p> <p>Below level 50, the bosses will drop rare harvest items.</p> <p>There are two tiers of molds: 50 to 59, and 60 to 70. These come from the bosses in the revamped guild writ raid zones.</p> <p>At each level range, there are two types of molds each for cloth, leather, chain, and plate. One type of mold can be made into gloves, boots, or helm, while the somewhat rarer one can make legs or chest.</p> <p>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid. The pieces don't have effects, but rather focus on nice stats, resists, and extra mitigation on the fighter pieces.</p> <p>These aren't relic and they aren't meant to be on par with fabled gear. Their purpose is to give beginning raiders the stats and resists to be successful as they progress to harder targets. While even some seasoned raiders may seek out certain pieces for resist gear, that's not for whom this armor is intended.</p> <p>You will be able to find fancier stuff with effects and various do-dads from group instances. We're not saying that this new gear will be the best option in every situation, especially for those who have done group instances a lot. Our intent is that it helps folks take the next step if they want to get into raiding but feel like they haven't had a good place to start.</p><hr></blockquote>Isn't that what the old Ebon/Cobalt was meant for?  Gear people could use to do the lower end raids and so on?  Since the semingly killing off of rare crafted armor (T7 rare crafted anyone? no I didn't think so) as a base for people starting to raid, it sounds to me like this armor has now been put on the guild writ raids.  I can see the crafters crying in their sleep over this.  The progression from T5 to T6 was a disaster no doubt.  Whole sets of T5 Fabled made worthless.  T7 seemed to go in the opposite direction though and made crafted armor utterly invisible to anyone but twinks.Why are only 5 pieces of armor made available in this raid writ system?  Why not make items for all 7 slots, or is that where the crafters now come in, to make items just for bracers and shoulders.</div>

[n0kn0k]

Since the semingly killing off of rare crafted armor (T7 rare crafted anyone? no I didn't think so) as a base for people starting to raid, it sounds to me like this armor has now been put on the guild writ raids.  I can see the crafters crying in their sleep over this.I doubt they will cry over a few pieces of "worse then relic armour" ruining their market each week.I'm sure they would have cried all the time during the ever continuing "relic farming".Relic armour already destroyed their market, no need to cry anymore. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

How many guilds are there that are just starting up compared to already raid ready guilds, that are going to do these zones ?Are there really that many guilds that are geared up in a mix of treasured and legendary ? It's a serious question.We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.I'm just thinking the number of people these zones would benefit (loot wise) would be minimal best.On the other hand practicing the strats would be nice.Theres no doubt it will be fun, but imo, designing zones and events that have longevity (such as scaleable zones)should be more important<p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 AM</span>

[Purg]

<P>i hope people remember not all guilds have 12/24+ lv 50 people. many have none over level 50</P> <P>many guilds have lot lower level players, and could old ever dream of raising at raid at lv 30 for example, and this will help hugely, i rememebr when i started in this game, i was consistantly the highest level person in my guild at lv 30 something, </P> <P>this will be brilliant introduction for smaller, newer guilds.</P> <P>Remember not every one has a huge  guild, not every one has 24 lv 70s. </P> <P>Guilds could choose to lead an alt raid, and break out all those secondary lv 30 chars. </P>

[Gobbwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:<BR>How many guilds are there that are just starting up compared to already raid ready guilds, that are going to do these zones ?<BR><BR>Are there really that many guilds that are geared up in a mix of treasured and legendary ? It's a serious question.<BR><BR>We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.<BR><BR>I'm just thinking the number of people these zones would benefit (loot wise) would be minimal best.<BR><BR>On the other hand practicing the strats would be nice.<BR><BR>Theres no doubt it will be fun, but imo, designing zones and events that have longevity (such as scaleable zones)should be more important <P>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:17 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do a quick search on the number of topics where people are requesting more Group X2 and X3 raids, you'd be suprised.  Now for my personal perspective: </P> <P>I'm in a rather large guild, so it isn't a problem for us to field full raids and have fun in T6/T7, but that is NOT the norm.  You'd be suprised at the number of guilds who have less than 50 actual people in the guild (many have lots of alts that inflate their numbers a bit).  I often play at odd hours, so I often group w/ non-guildies during these times, I've grouped with a lot of people who are in this exact position.  I am in no way tweaked out, but upon inspecting some of these people, the differences in our gear was the same as me compairing myself to a hardcore raider in all relic and M1 spells.  It wasn't like they didn't know their class, most played acceptionally well, but you can't get the better gear if your guild can't field more than a group or two.  </P> <P>Yea, it could be argued that you should just go single group "instance hopping" and get gear that is likely better than what these raids will drop, but some people just don't have that much time to play.  Also, there are others who are 'anti-master chest warders' just like me, where on the rare occasion that something nice does drop that I can use, I lotto roll some rediculously tiny number.  "Awww, Snap!  Congratz dude...*sighs*"  Then its a dozen or so instance runs prior to something else dropping that I can use.</P> <P>If this does scale appropiately, I for one, will applaud this.  These raids won't penalize raiders by providing comperable gear to much more difficult raids, but it will give "the little guys" a little something to work for.</P>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ogrebear wrote:<BR><BR>What type of arrmor are we talking about. You know if it is tressuesd arrmor, the guild raid zones are going zones are going to be empty. The arrmor from the boss mobs would have to be high end Legndary or higher to get much interest. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me clarify what's in the notes a bit. We'll make sure the final notes for the Game Update spell things out a bit more clearly.</P> <P>Below level 50, the bosses will drop rare harvest items.</P> <P>There are two tiers of molds: 50 to 59, and 60 to 70. These come from the bosses in the revamped guild writ raid zones.</P> <P>At each level range, there are two types of molds each for cloth, leather, chain, and plate. One type of mold can be made into gloves, boots, or helm, while the somewhat rarer one can make legs or chest.</P> <P>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid. The pieces don't have effects, but rather focus on nice stats, resists, and extra mitigation on the fighter pieces.</P> <P>These aren't relic and they aren't meant to be on par with fabled gear. Their purpose is to give beginning raiders the stats and resists to be successful as they progress to harder targets. While even some seasoned raiders may seek out certain pieces for resist gear, that's not for whom this armor is intended.</P> <P>You will be able to find fancier stuff with effects and various do-dads from group instances. We're not saying that this new gear will be the best option in every situation, especially for those who have done group instances a lot. Our intent is that it helps folks take the next step if they want to get into raiding but feel like they haven't had a good place to start.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which just totally leaves out those that have relic or higher gear.  Guild content should be for all guilds regardless of what stage in the game they're in.

[madha]

Will the zones drop master cheasts? or will they all just be HOF pre nerf groupX2 with smaller loot tables.  I realy see no point in doing these for legendary gear unless they have a better chance to drop master spells that are the lvl of the zone.  Our guild was happy about these new raids becasue sometimes we have to many people that want to raid and have to refuse them, but a little extra group2 content seems nice unless all they drop is crap, but status might make up for it.

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:How many guilds are there that are just starting up compared to already raid ready guilds, that are going to do these zones ?Are there really that many guilds that are geared up in a mix of treasured and legendary ? It's a serious question.We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.I'm just thinking the number of people these zones would benefit (loot wise) would be minimal best.On the other hand practicing the strats would be nice.Theres no doubt it will be fun, but imo, designing zones and events that have longevity (such as scaleable zones)should be more important<p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 AM</span><hr></blockquote>If you want a idea of how much x2 raid zones are needed in this game I suggest you check your lvl 60-69 channel and see exactly how many lab trash runs are setup daily.x2 zones are VITAL for this game imho, hardcore raiders may object but I think the popularity of the lab trash runs shows exactly what people want from raids. Yes the hardcore raiders can just breeze by the labs but for those that arnt on 24/7 or who are not in uber raids guilds x2 zones provide a very nice distraction once you hit lvl 70.

[Xelephe]

<DIV>I just want to take a moment to thank SOE for once again giving their Armor Smiths the shaft!  Looks like I should have rolled up a provisioner so at least I could use the items I make, lord knows that no one on my server wants my armor since T6!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinon you broke crafted armor when you put Cobalt into the game and made it that T6 Fabled a joke of an upgrade from it.  So to fix this gross oversite you made T7 crafted armor just about worthless and made new relic gear so easy to get that a non-skilled 12 person pick up raid can farm it off trash mobs in Vyemms every day.  Not to mention that the Fabled drops off mobs like Lord Vyemm are hardly worth the upgrade. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly the loot that mobs like Hurricans & Taranix provide as supposed "upgrades" for plate classes are laughable compared to Relic.  If it weren't for the effects on select peices I would never spend DKP on them. IMO you should fix the T7 crafted armor to reflect what you intend for this armor and this zone should drop crafting rares and enough cash to cover the fuels costs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks once again for nothing SOE,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Xelephere on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[Kokus]

<DIV>Good job staying on topic...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> Which just totally leaves out those that have relic or higher gear.  Guild content should be for all guilds regardless of what stage in the game they're in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would guilds that farm all the hard x4 instances (laugh, hard) and contested content need newbie raid gear anyway?  It doesn't make sense.<BR>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> Which just totally leaves out those that have relic or higher gear.  Guild content should be for all guilds regardless of what stage in the game they're in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would guilds that farm all the hard x4 instances (laugh, hard) and contested content need newbie raid gear anyway?  It doesn't make sense.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactly. And actually, our guild doesn't have a level limit. We field full guild 68+ (usually pretty much all 70's) x4 raids twice a week, but we're not a hardcore raid guild. We also run a Tier 6 raid once a week, but a lot of the Tier 7 raiders go on that. We have a LOT of lower level people who have been wistfully commenting about how we are not running lower level raids, but the lack of raids with clear rewards at those levels has made it unattractive. We were just about to start up a Tier 5 raid night, with the possibility of adding a Tier 4 occasionally when we heard about this. And here we go!</P> <P>I suspect we'll be running raids in every tier as long as we can find people willing to run them, because we have the numbers to fill the raids, between alts and actual new players. It's surprising how many people we have in the 20's and 30's who are new to EQ2, because it's developing some good word of mouth again, after a bad initial reaction. The changes in the last six months have been very good for the game as a whole, and people are coming back to it, or coming to it for the first time. We're seeing quite a few returning or new players, and they want to do more than grind to 70. Cheers to the devs on this one. </P>

[DMIstar]

<DIV>I apprieciate the thought and plans on this, For I think it could help alot out in this game.. My only Concern is, With the gear being ready for ppl to get into the "Raid Zones" Will these Writ zones be able to actually Gear people, Or more or less Eye Candy ?. Aka go in Complete it and get 1-3 Pieces at best and rinse and repeat 50 some times...  And if its going to repetitive like that, how many different zones/instance will there be to keep interest ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know, I still like the keal/ToV type molds idea to help out smaller guilds to have a direction. </DIV>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> Which just totally leaves out those that have relic or higher gear.  Guild content should be for all guilds regardless of what stage in the game they're in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would guilds that farm all the hard x4 instances (laugh, hard) and contested content need newbie raid gear anyway?  It doesn't make sense.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First of all......why should they cater to those that don't?</P> <P>Secondly.............</P> <P>I'd be happy if they just instituted some sort of throphy to hang on a wall as long as it was something that <EM>EVERYONE</EM> can use.</P>

[Steelheart]

<P>I wanna expand on your comment Guage..........</P> <P>Now don't get me wrong.  We are in T7 raid zones, but only because that's all that's left to do.  Most of my guild only plays 10-20 hrs a week (occasionaly 25).  Our average age is early 30s and most of us do indeed have RL outside of this game.  The prob is that we haven't rushed 1 bit and are nearing the top end of this expansion.  Furthermore we only hit the Lab and or Lycium maybe once every week and a half so if that's considered farming then so be it.</P> <P>My major complaint is that there's been really no reason to do guild writ raids.  The end reward isn't even extra status nor has it ever been.  It's usually something that doesn't even compare with crafted items (sorry crafters.......you kinda got dunked in this expansion :smileysad: ).  </P> <P>Why not make guild writ raids guild reward oriented.  For example status items. status points, and/or throphies.  What the Devs have done to fix this is almost an insult and has little to do with guild oriented rewards in my opinion.</P><p>Message Edited by Steelheart on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> <P>First of all......why should they cater to those that don't?  <FONT color=#ffff00>They try to cater to everyone.  I didn't hear you complaining when Chel'Drak was implemented.  Chel'Drak is content for the other minority.  What is wrong with having some for the casual raiders, especially those who want to raid and gear up.  The ones showing intiative to maybe raid the harder stuff.  More people raiding harder stuff, means more hardcore content.  Yay!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh and before you say "well they can raid Chel'Drak" sure, they can.  You can also do the guild raids.</FONT></P> <P>Secondly.............</P> <P>I'd be happy if they just instituted some sort of throphy to hang on a wall as long as it was something that <EM>EVERYONE</EM> can use.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Everyone can use the armor, the fact is that most hardcore raiders won't.  But you still <EM>can.</EM></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:<BR>We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The loot isn't a step backwards from legendary; it <EM>is</EM> legendary. My previous post described the way we designed the gear and allocated its stat points and such.</P> <P>If you're already in fabled, then you aren't the target market for these armor sets.</P> <P>These raids will work well for players in situations like these:</P> <UL> <LI>Guilds with a number of lower-level players who want to take on event-based challenges you don't see in typical single groups</LI> <LI>Smaller guilds who can't field a full raid force of 24 but want to try raiding</LI> <LI>Higher-level characters who didn't raid at level 50 or 60 and feel like they don't have the gear or knowledge to jump in at 70</LI> <LI>Those who haven't raided before and aren't sure if they'd like it</LI> <LI>Guilds that want an additional means of earning status</LI> <LI>Guilds looking for events that a couple groups can do together and have fun</LI></UL> <P>Acquiring loot is not the main purpose for these raids. The loot is added as a useful side benefit intended for a very specific segment of the player population. The main purpose of these raids is to provide fun two-group events that serve as a learning tool while providing the means to earn guild status.</P> <P>Again, if you can look at the loot and say "That doesn't benefit me," then chances are you weren't the type of player this gear was meant for.</P>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> <P>First of all......why should they cater to those that don't?  <FONT color=#ffff00>They try to cater to everyone.  I didn't hear you complaining when Chel'Drak was implemented.  Chel'Drak is content for the other minority.  What is wrong with having some for the casual raiders, especially those who want to raid and gear up.  The ones showing intiative to maybe raid the harder stuff.  More people raiding harder stuff, means more hardcore content.  Yay!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh and before you say "well they can raid Chel'Drak" sure, they can.  You can also do the guild raids.</FONT></P> <P>Secondly.............</P> <P>I'd be happy if they just instituted some sort of throphy to hang on a wall as long as it was something that <EM>EVERYONE</EM> can use.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Everyone can use the armor, the fact is that most hardcore raiders won't.  But you still <EM>can.</EM></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let's see if we can push you to a 10k post count........</P> <P>Quoted from Moorgard's post.......</P> <P><EM>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid</EM></P> <P>How is this fair to people that are already raiding?  How is this "guild" oriented anymore than raiding the lab with your guild for relic?  This is not a guild oriented reward worthy of a city issued guild raid.  This is more like a lesser version of a lab raid where relic armor drops.  There's no forethought in this.  This is a fix to help players start raiding, which isn't neccessarly a bad thing, but the guise is all wrong.  City oriented guild raids should have guild oriented rewards, not relictype (or close) armor.  Mine as well put that on the city vendor and sell it for status.  Heck..........What about giving status for completing guild raids (novel idea).</P><p>Message Edited by Steelheart on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Steelheart wrote:<div></div><p>Let's see if we can push you to a 10k post count........</p><p>Quoted from Moorgard's post.......</p><p><em>The items made are legendary. They are intended to be no-nonsense gear to be of use to people who are starting to raid</em></p><p>How is this fair to people that are already raiding?  How is this "guild" oriented anymore than raiding the lab with your guild for relic?  This is not a guild oriented reward worthy of a city issued guild raid.  This is more like a lesser version of a lab raid where relic armor drops.  There's no forethough in this.  This is a quick fix to help players start raiding, which isn't neccessarly a bad thing, but the guise is all wrong.  City oriented guild raids should have guild oriented rewards, not relictype (or close) armor.  Mine as well put that on the city vendor and sell it for status.  Heck..........What about giving status for completing guild raids (novel idea).</p><hr></blockquote>Because they're designed around starter raiders! They aren't meant for the hardcore. And they obviously will give status, which anyway Moorgard just said that. They're meant for people who haven't raided yet. If you're already raiding Labs, Lyceum, and Halls of Seeing then you've already got raiding under your belt. Maybe those could use it if you're in a casual raid guild that's raiding but have some new members or people who don't always get to go on raids. You could instead of making them just sit out, you could have them go off and do the guild raids instead! *gasp* I think the guild raids revamp is a good idea.

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:<BR>We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The loot isn't a step backwards from legendary; it <EM>is</EM> legendary. My previous post described the way we designed the gear and allocated its stat points and such.</P> <P>If you're already in fabled, then you aren't the target market for these armor sets.</P> <P>These raids will work well for players in situations like these:</P> <UL> <LI>Guilds with a number of lower-level players who want to take on event-based challenges you don't see in typical single groups</LI> <LI>Smaller guilds who can't field a full raid force of 24 but want to try raiding</LI> <LI>Higher-level characters who didn't raid at level 50 or 60 and feel like they don't have the gear or knowledge to jump in at 70</LI> <LI>Those who haven't raided before and aren't sure if they'd like it</LI> <LI>Guilds that want an additional means of earning status</LI> <LI>Guilds looking for events that a couple groups can do together and have fun</LI></UL> <P>Acquiring loot is not the main purpose for these raids. The loot is added as a useful side benefit intended for a very specific segment of the player population. The main purpose of these raids is to provide fun two-group events that serve as a learning tool while providing the means to earn guild status.</P> <P>Again, if you can look at the loot and say "That doesn't benefit me," then chances are you weren't the type of player this gear was meant for.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I understand the purpose, just disagree with the way it's being implimented.</P> <P>I don't currently have a single piece of relic and i think my class helm is my only fabled armor piece. </P> <P>City guild raids should have more guild oriented rewards.  Since this game launched many of us really wanted guild writ raids to mean something.</P> <P>Message Edited by Steelheart on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:44 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Steelheart on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>How is this fair to people that are already raiding?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Fair?  Well maybe its fair because the guilds already raiding are getting rewarded by the raids they are already doing?  Maybe its fair because the guilds already raiding can do these city raids for status if they feel like it, or do them with their alts, or whatever.  The point is its fair because it is.  Not all newly implemented content is for everyone, sometimes content (and its rewards) are targetted to a specific playstyle, playerbase or what have you.</FONT></P> <P>How is this "guild" oriented anymore than raiding the lab with your guild for relic?  <FONT color=#ffff00>City raids reward status, which increases guild level, which unlocks more guild rewards.</FONT></P> <P>This is not a guild oriented reward worthy of a city issued guild raid.  This is more like a lesser version of a lab raid where relic armor drops.  There's no forethough in this.  This is a quick fix to help players start raiding, which isn't neccessarly a bad thing, but the guise is all wrong.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That is your opinion.  However I disagree.  Besides I'm usually right and my opinion always prevails.  The point is it *is* a guild oriented reward worty of a city issued raid because it scales with level, is doable by most guilds since the raids are x2 and they reward status.  Its *also* a building block for guilds who want to start raiding but feel blocked for whatever reason:  gear, time, guild size, etc.</FONT></P> <P>City oriented guild raids should have guild oriented rewards, not relictype (or close) armor.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Says you.  By awarding status city raids are awarding the guild, anything else (relic light) is above and beyond rewarding the guild and should be looked at as icing, not the cake.</FONT></P> <P>Mine as well put that on the city vendor and sell it for status.  Heck..........What about giving status for completing guild raids (novel idea).  <FONT color=#ffff00>They are!  Way to be uninformed during your rant, awesome!</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>How is this fair to people that are already raiding?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Fair?  Well maybe its fair because the guilds already raiding are getting rewarded by the raids they are already doing?  Maybe its fair because the guilds already raiding can do these city raids for status if they feel like it, or do them with their alts, or whatever.  The point is its fair because it is.  Not all newly implemented content is for everyone, sometimes content (and its rewards) are targetted to a specific playstyle, playerbase or what have you.</FONT></P> <P>How is this "guild" oriented anymore than raiding the lab with your guild for relic?  <FONT color=#ffff00>City raids reward status, which increases guild level, which unlocks more guild rewards.</FONT></P> <P>This is not a guild oriented reward worthy of a city issued guild raid.  This is more like a lesser version of a lab raid where relic armor drops.  There's no forethough in this.  This is a quick fix to help players start raiding, which isn't neccessarly a bad thing, but the guise is all wrong.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That is your opinion.  However I disagree.  Besides I'm usually right and my opinion always prevails.  The point is it *is* a guild oriented reward worty of a city issued raid because it scales with level, is doable by most guilds since the raids are x2 and they reward status.  Its *also* a building block for guilds who want to start raiding but feel blocked for whatever reason:  gear, time, guild size, etc.</FONT></P> <P>City oriented guild raids should have guild oriented rewards, not relictype (or close) armor.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Says you.  By awarding status city raids are awarding the guild, anything else (relic light) is above and beyond rewarding the guild and should be looked at as icing, not the cake.</FONT></P> <P>Mine as well put that on the city vendor and sell it for status.  Heck..........What about giving status for completing guild raids (novel idea).  <FONT color=#ffff00>They are!  Way to be uninformed during your rant, awesome!</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I disagree Guage, but you can post what you wish.  Maybe if you played as much as you posted you would feel the same way.

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> I disagree Guage, but you can post what you wish.  Maybe if you played as much as you posted you would feel the same way.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Its an I not a U and it follows the A.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've got me there though, I mean I never play!  Ever.  Just ask my guildies.<BR></DIV>

[Ishbu]

Think of it this way:You have your guild raids that will be x2 and of legendary quality rewardsNext are the x2 raids in the fallen dynastyThen comes all of KoS raidingThe x4 raids from the APHOPEFULLY EoF raiding will come next and be a step above the rest.Clearly there is enough content that will be easy enough and farmed enough when EoF is released that we need to raise the bar again. It would be foolish to think that they can raise the bar without implementing starter raids to get even more people into the raid scene. I hope the idea here is to start to form some raid progression as I outlined above. A guild learns on the guild stuff, tries their hand on the x2 instances, moves on the x4 instances in KoS, gets to the harder x4 encounters in the AP and now they are ready to raid EoF. All these fall in the same tier (t7) so its perfectly acceptable and then, whenever t8 comes out we start all over again.Or I could be way off base and EoF will be a bunch of newb raids like KoS and anyone looking for some real raid content that has already raided KoS may as well just cancel their accounts. Here's hoping though.

[Ktok]

<DIV>Steel,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what path you personally took to be geared up for raiding, but it's not an easy path for most people, especially if your guild isn't already at x4 raiding level. Sure, if the guild is already doing raids, one or two under-geared people can tag along and get geared up. However... imagine this... not every guild is like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild is full of skilled people, and when we raid or take part in raid with our alliance we are very, very good... but *most* of us are low level or only moderately equipped. In fact I think there may only be 4 or 5 people in guild who even own a piece of Fabled gear. We want to raid more, and we are the people this change is targetted toward. This will help us a great deal, not only with better gear, but also by providing a sandbox to train the raid virgins in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that you, from your perspective, have opinions counter to this. However, as the leader and founder of a guild in which every member would welcome these changes and enjoy them a great deal, I think you're being a bit elitist. But, that's my opinion... you're entitles to yours and I'm entitled to mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorguard and the devs,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THANK YOU for these changes! You're giving my guild a whole new area of activity to do together, from the high level folks all the way down to the lowbies we can mentor and guide through these events. I'm thrilled and cannot wait to get my hands on this Game Update. I've been telling my guild about what's coming, and they are stoked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One question... just to be sure. We have members from both cities. Currently, Freeport folks and Qeynosians can go on the same guild raid even though it's a different quest name, because they are located in the same instance and are in fact the same raid in spite of differing names. Will we still be able to do this? It would be *very* important to continued harmony in my guild that no division between the members be introduced by keeping Freeport characters from joining a guild raid when the guild is based in Qeynos.</DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Think of it this way:<BR><BR>You have your guild raids that will be x2 and of legendary quality rewards<BR>Next are the x2 raids in the fallen dynasty<BR>Then comes all of KoS raiding<BR>The x4 raids from the AP<BR>HOPEFULLY EoF raiding will come next and be a step above the rest.<BR><BR>Clearly there is enough content that will be easy enough and farmed enough when EoF is released that we need to raise the bar again. It would be foolish to think that they can raise the bar without implementing starter raids to get even more people into the raid scene. <BR><BR>I hope the idea here is to start to form some raid progression as I outlined above. A guild learns on the guild stuff, tries their hand on the x2 instances, moves on the x4 instances in KoS, gets to the harder x4 encounters in the AP and now they are ready to raid EoF. All these fall in the same tier (t7) so its perfectly acceptable and then, whenever t8 comes out we start all over again.<BR><BR>Or I could be way off base and EoF will be a bunch of newb raids like KoS and anyone looking for some real raid content that has already raided KoS may as well just cancel their accounts. Here's hoping though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'll be dissapointed if the raids in EoF aren't all orange and super hard.

[Wilin]

I think it's an excellent idea. I think alot of newer guilds are moving through T5-6-7 without actually taking the time to gear up in T5 or T6. So when they get to T7 and march into Labs with their T7 crafted gear, they are getting reamed. This gives them an option without having to go back and play through content that is 1 tier lower (and sometimes greyed out so no loot) just to get to the current tier stuff.

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Wilin wrote:I think it's an excellent idea. I think alot of newer guilds are moving through T5-6-7 without actually taking the time to gear up in T5 or T6. So when they get to T7 and march into Labs with their T7 crafted gear, they are getting reamed. This gives them an option without having to go back and play through content that is 1 tier lower (and sometimes greyed out so no loot) just to get to the current tier stuff.<hr></blockquote>Nobody would raid T7 with crafted gear. They always try and get the minimium dropped gear to go and raid now, specially since there's so many options out there in dropped gear now.

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ktok wrote:<BR> <DIV>Steel,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what path you personally took to be geared up for raiding, but it's not an easy path for most people, especially if your guild isn't already at x4 raiding level. Sure, if the guild is already doing raids, one or two under-geared people can tag along and get geared up. However... imagine this... not every guild is like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild is full of skilled people, and when we raid or take part in raid with our alliance we are very, very good... but *most* of us are low level or only moderately equipped. In fact I think there may only be 4 or 5 people in guild who even own a piece of Fabled gear. We want to raid more, and we are the people this change is targetted toward. This will help us a great deal, not only with better gear, but also by providing a sandbox to train the raid virgins in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that you, from your perspective, have opinions counter to this. However, as the leader and founder of a guild in which every member would welcome these changes and enjoy them a great deal, I think you're being a bit elitist. But, that's my opinion... you're entitles to yours and I'm entitled to mine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorguard and the devs,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THANK YOU for these changes! You're giving my guild a whole new area of activity to do together, from the high level folks all the way down to the lowbies we can mentor and guide through these events. I'm thrilled and cannot wait to get my hands on this Game Update. I've been telling my guild about what's coming, and they are stoked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One question... just to be sure. We have members from both cities. Currently, Freeport folks and Qeynosians can go on the same guild raid even though it's a different quest name, because they are located in the same instance and are in fact the same raid in spite of differing names. Will we still be able to do this? It would be *very* important to continued harmony in my guild that no division between the members be introduced by keeping Freeport characters from joining a guild raid when the guild is based in Qeynos.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe i'm not coming across clearly here........</P> <P>This doesn't have anything to do with Elitist, casual, or any type of playstyle.  It's about "guild" oriented rewards.  Rewards that are guild oriented like throphies for completion of such raids or titles etc........  </P> <P>and Ktok.............you're being a bit condesending for someone who doesn't know me, but that's my opinion............ </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Ughhhh....isp probs, forgive the edit mistakes</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Steelheart on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[Lindar Phamoncry]

<DIV>All I can say is thank you! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Long have I awaited to be able to have something fun to do with some of the lower members within my guild. This is something that can help us as a family grow stronger and give those lowbies a reason to want to be in our guild. We can give them a reason to keep driving towards our levels to continue these events and eventually the better T7 X2's!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Steelheart... sorry bud... your just not getting it. you have the fortune of having the ability to experience the T7 raid content already and should appreciate that luxury... you have something you can do with your guild for fun and status, Al'Afaz and HoS will never be able to be done unless we can get our lower members up and raiding with us.... and its not just about raiding... its about having something to do as a guild. A way to help our lower members learn the game with OUR help and not having to rely on shady out of guild pickup groups... something to keep them from being so frustrated... something to bring the guild together! who knows... once others see that we are willing to help our lower members they might be tempted to join as well... and the guild grows more healthy until we are all having fun together raiding in T7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE you have just made my day!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: forgot to include... <STRONG><U>STATUS</U></STRONG> is the reward for these... for us in T7 this is more then enough of a reason... the gear would be going to those we were mentoring and would just be the the "Icing on the cake"... if thats not enough for you then dont do these... its seeming to me these are events to help guild health... if you can already get a T7 X4 raid together you have other means of accomplising the very same effect... these arent for you </DIV><p>Message Edited by Lindar Phamoncry on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 PM</span>

[Kunathar]

<blockquote><hr>Steelheart <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div><p>Maybe i'm not coming across clearly here........</p> <p>This doesn't have anything to do with Elitist, casual, or any type of playstyle.  It's about "guild" oriented rewards.  Rewards that are guild oriented like throphies for completion of such raids or titles etc........  </p><hr></blockquote> From someone who used to be a part of leading a small Guild to someone who is now a member of the small Guild, just having these Raids as an option is a reward in and of itself.  It builds a Guild's character, defines members who otherwise wouldn't get a chance to shine outside of a small party, provides a training ground for Guilds to help growing members adjust to raiding concepts, creates opprotunities for small Guilds to collaborate on a slightly broader scale, invokes more member involvement and last but not least it provides another method for smaller guild's to earn "Guild Experience".   All of these are the "Guild" oriented rewards that I see as a result of this upcoming change.  Anything that creates excitement, adventure and most importantly memories is a heck of a reward for any Guild especially for ones which otherwise cannot experience higher-end raid content. <div></div>

[Tallika_Runwithbears]

My guild too has been eagerly awaiting x2 content at all tiers.  we are small and casual guild but some members have been wanting to dip their feet into some raiding to check it out, and x2 trash mobs just doesnt quite cut it.  We clear entry areas and then can't go farther cause it all turns x4.  Can't wait for this to go live!!!<div></div>

[Oakum]

<P>I think the new guild raids are actually a well thought out plan to get more people into raiding and therefore keep people around longer while they are waiting for the next lvl raise like me. 2 groups is perfect for smaller guilds and with the ability to get status from them they are much more meaningful and legendary/rares droping can help them with both equip and spell lvls. </P> <P>Its a smart move. Its not for hardcore raid guilds. That seems pretty clear from what I read. Basically if you are a hardcore raider this is like crafting changes to a pure adventure. It should hold no interest unless you are afraid of getting more competition down the line. lol. I hope no ones that immature.  </P> <P>Edit. The tradeskill example is not that good of a one since adventurers did lose a tradeskill made rare armor and weapons as a something worthwhile to get until they got better drops from groups mobs.  A better example is of a change to a freeport quest that to someone who doesnt want an evil character to play. </P><p>Message Edited by Oakum on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>I love this idea. Now can we have guild rewards for guild levels. here is an idea to get you started</P> <P>DISCOUNT MENDERS. Guild level reward bought mender % discount. depending on the raid matron/cheldrak some people can spend up to a plat a night trying this stuff out. </P> <P>Guild lvl 60 rewards-<BR>-Discount menders 10% something raid guilds and casual guilds would both enjoy.  <BR>-Guild hall floorplan A<BR>-Druid ring for our guild hall to port us around norrath's druid rings. <BR>- new mount<BR>- Recipe to make a special geomancy tradeskill machine- that uses raid drops to make special raid items. Such as select master 3 spells 1 for each subclass, such as special class specific items or adornments.</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones. <hr> </blockquote> <p>The loot isn't a step backwards from legendary; it <em>is</em> legendary. My previous post described the way we designed the gear and allocated its stat points and such.</p> <p>If you're already in fabled, then you aren't the target market for these armor sets.</p> <p>These raids will work well for players in situations like these:</p> <ul> <li>Guilds with a number of lower-level players who want to take on event-based challenges you don't see in typical single groups</li> <li>Smaller guilds who can't field a full raid force of 24 but want to try raiding</li> <li>Higher-level characters who didn't raid at level 50 or 60 and feel like they don't have the gear or knowledge to jump in at 70</li> <li>Those who haven't raided before and aren't sure if they'd like it</li> <li>Guilds that want an additional means of earning status</li> <li>Guilds looking for events that a couple groups can do together and have fun</li></ul> <p>Acquiring loot is not the main purpose for these raids. The loot is added as a useful side benefit intended for a very specific segment of the player population. The main purpose of these raids is to provide fun two-group events that serve as a learning tool while providing the means to earn guild status.</p> <p>Again, if you can look at the loot and say "That doesn't benefit me," then chances are you weren't the type of player this gear was meant for.</p><hr></blockquote>and thats definately a good thing.its tough to get geared up to raid and this shoudl help guilds who are just starting to raid T6 and T7 .. it wont interest the ones who can raid already.</div><p>Message Edited by Sirlutt on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:37 PM</span>

[Wilin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wilin wrote:<BR>I think it's an excellent idea. I think alot of newer guilds are moving through T5-6-7 without actually taking the time to gear up in T5 or T6. So when they get to T7 and march into Labs with their T7 crafted gear, they are getting reamed. This gives them an option without having to go back and play through content that is 1 tier lower (and sometimes greyed out so no loot) just to get to the current tier stuff.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Nobody would raid T7 with crafted gear. They always try and get the minimium dropped gear to go and raid now, specially since there's so many options out there in dropped gear now.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nobody would raid T7 with crafted gear SUCCESSFULLY, but they will try. I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere. I know of at least one guild that is doing it...and failing I might add. The MT is rolling into Labs with a full suit of xegonite. Just because we know better doesn't mean that everyone does. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kendricke]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Think of it this way:<BR><BR>You have your guild raids that will be x2 and of legendary quality rewards<BR>Next are the x2 raids in the fallen dynasty<BR>Then comes all of KoS raiding<BR>The x4 raids from the AP<BR>HOPEFULLY EoF raiding will come next and be a step above the rest.<BR><BR>Clearly there is enough content that will be easy enough and farmed enough when EoF is released that we need to raise the bar again. It would be foolish to think that they can raise the bar without implementing starter raids to get even more people into the raid scene. <BR><BR>I hope the idea here is to start to form some raid progression as I outlined above. A guild learns on the guild stuff, tries their hand on the x2 instances, moves on the x4 instances in KoS, gets to the harder x4 encounters in the AP and now they are ready to raid EoF. All these fall in the same tier (t7) so its perfectly acceptable and then, whenever t8 comes out we start all over again.<BR><BR>Or I could be way off base and EoF will be a bunch of newb raids like KoS and anyone looking for some real raid content that has already raided KoS may as well just cancel their accounts. Here's hoping though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'll be dissapointed if the raids in EoF aren't all orange and super hard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...with biofeedback!  I mean when you fail and wipe, a boot should physically manifest below your desk and then kick you right in the stomach!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> n0kn0k wrote:<BR>Since the semingly killing off of rare crafted armor (T7 rare crafted anyone? no I didn't think so) as a base for people starting to raid, it sounds to me like this armor has now been put on the guild writ raids.  I can see the crafters crying in their sleep over this.<BR><BR>I doubt they will cry over a few pieces of "worse then relic armour" ruining their market each week.<BR>I'm sure they would have cried all the time during the ever continuing "relic farming".<BR><BR>Relic armour already destroyed their market, no need to cry anymore. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why would they cry over relic which are rare drops when uncommon treasured is equitable to most rare crafted?

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>Think of it this way:<BR><BR>You have your guild raids that will be x2 and of legendary quality rewards<BR>Next are the x2 raids in the fallen dynasty<BR>Then comes all of KoS raiding<BR>The x4 raids from the AP<BR>HOPEFULLY EoF raiding will come next and be a step above the rest.<BR><BR>Clearly there is enough content that will be easy enough and farmed enough when EoF is released that we need to raise the bar again. It would be foolish to think that they can raise the bar without implementing starter raids to get even more people into the raid scene. <BR><BR>I hope the idea here is to start to form some raid progression as I outlined above. A guild learns on the guild stuff, tries their hand on the x2 instances, moves on the x4 instances in KoS, gets to the harder x4 encounters in the AP and now they are ready to raid EoF. All these fall in the same tier (t7) so its perfectly acceptable and then, whenever t8 comes out we start all over again.<BR><BR>Or I could be way off base and EoF will be a bunch of newb raids like KoS and anyone looking for some real raid content that has already raided KoS may as well just cancel their accounts. Here's hoping though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'll be dissapointed if the raids in EoF aren't all orange and super hard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...with biofeedback!  I mean when you fail and wipe, a boot should physically manifest below your desk and then kick you right in the stomach!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:54 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Only if we're awarded Ice Cream if we win.

[mayhem111]

As long as mentoring actually works cause atm mentoring doesn't work.  You still get the mobs at a lvl of the high people in the raid.  As long as mobs are the lvl of the mentored raid I'll be happy.

[Shakir10]

<DIV>This is just wrong. Some of you people are making me agree with Gaige. But in this case I do. I think the devs made an excelet move with these new raids. They look like they will be perfect for helping a new guild or an existing guild that hasn't done much raiding get a good feel for what it's like. These raids look like they are perfect for helping members learn how to work together in a 2 or 4 group setting so that they can have an idea where to start when they want to start taking on the harder stuff. They would be a very good launch pad to get a guild that doesn't really raid much into starting stuff like Lyceum for example. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>I love this idea. Now can we have guild rewards for guild levels. here is an idea to get you started</P> <P>DISCOUNT MENDERS. Guild level reward bought mender % discount. depending on the raid matron/cheldrak some people can spend up to a plat a night trying this stuff out. </P> <P>Guild lvl 60 rewards-<BR>-Discount menders 10% something raid guilds and casual guilds would both enjoy.  <BR>-Guild hall floorplan A<BR>-Druid ring for our guild hall to port us around norrath's druid rings. <BR>- new mount<BR>- Recipe to make a special geomancy tradeskill machine- that uses raid drops to make special raid items. Such as select master 3 spells 1 for each subclass, such as special class specific items or adornments.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How about the ability to just click on the spire and insta port so as dont have to wait 5 Min?    LOL :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>This along with taking out the devout essense requirement makes me believe this will be the "GOOD" patch i have been waiting for...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  No matter what your guild is(Hardcore vs Casual or somewhere in between) this is a major plus for all.  It REPLACES a BROKEN GUILD RAID system that nobody tried twice before and gives guilds tools to help train their guildees.  It also gives status and legendary drops and the raid progression unlocking the next is a great idea.  Small and casual guilds will gain a big benefit from this to help get the basics down and have those guild levels rise.  More intense guilds can use it as training grounds when their roster suffers from attrition and they want to train new guildees.  Any guild that has limited time to play as a raid can whip thru these, pending whatever lockout timers are enforced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It comes down to this, you can use these new working guild raid writs and help yourself and the guild out or ignore them and work on other content in the game.  If it scales properly and and the status is decent, this is a win win situation for the all of us...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[BooDon]

<P>I agree with alot of what Gaige is saying.  TFD provided alot of nice high end stuff like Chel Drak and the crab.  Now some of the smaller guilds have something.  As far as the loot not being worth it for you larger guilds that have great fabled would you prefer these new instances to drop fabled gear equal to yours?  I didn't think so, we have alot of people already complaining that Labs is dropping some of the best gear in the game.  Farm it for guild status and to say you did it in a challenging way (we 4 manned that raid, we are 1337), that should be rewarding enough.</P> <P>You can also do what I'm gonna do and gear up my 3 t6 alts because I still can't find legendary to save my life in DoF zones.  It will also be nice to be able to raid with those toons.  I always wanted to try being a raid healer.  I suggest you get your alts in some decent legendary gear too.  No more crafted cobalt.</P> <P>These are starter raids, thats why they reward starter loot.  I think thats a reason there is no Talendor add spawning AE or a Vyemm turn on the raid and energy vortex them memwipe.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>At each level range, there are two types of molds each for cloth, leather, chain, and plate. One type of mold can be made into gloves, boots, or helm, while the somewhat rarer one can make legs or chest.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>what about forearms and shoulder slots?</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Killebr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe i'm not coming across clearly here........ <P>This doesn't have anything to do with Elitist, casual, or any type of playstyle.  It's about "guild" oriented rewards.  Rewards that are guild oriented like throphies for completion of such raids or titles etc........  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is not specifically directed at Steelheart or anyone else but this quote provides a good starting place.<BR><BR>I just cannot comprehend why this whole concept is difficult to understand.  These raids are NOT targeted for end-game guilds.  They are not targeted towards players that will only do something for a loot based reward.  Didn't you read what the initial description said?  These are meant to help smaller and less experienced guilds grab the basics of raiding.  For bigger, more experienced, higher level, better equiped guilds, these provide a fun thing to do on an off night when you've got a few people that feel like doing something.<BR>Some people find rewards outside of loot or other tangible benefits.  I, for one, and really looking forward to doing these raids as a way to strengthen relationships in my guild, build trust between members, and for a way to challenge ourselves.  Maybe take one group in to one of these and see if you can find a way to win.  Or have 13 people between 50 and 55 and one person level 48 and have everyone mentor the 48 once you get in.<BR>This is also a way to work on guild status with a larger number than strictly doing writs, especially for guilds in different level ranges.  They've also provided a fairly decent tangible reward for completing these raids.  FAIRLY DECENT.  This is not for the top of the game guilds who killed everything and want more loot so their numbers go up.  These are not designed to make you feel better about yourself when you press P and look at your stats.  These are character and relationship building tools that I am VERY excited about.<BR><BR>Moorguard, I do have idea for a change that I think would really add a spark to these.  Again, I am VERY excited about these raids being fixed and cannot wait to try them out with my guild.  However, there, one small change in the loot tables would make them perfect in my eye.  I think that if there was a chance, however small, of fabled loot dropping, that it would provide a much larger demand for these.  Once they have been mastered and interest starts to dwindle, regardless of the guild doing them, if there was even a 2% chance that a really nice fabled item balanced for the level of the instance, I think guild members could be further motivated to continue these.  As a guild leader, I see these raids as an exceptional way to work on GSP as a guild.<BR><BR>Also, for the pre-50 instances, you mention rares, spells and recipes (I think?.)  Will this include Master 1 scrolls? <BR><BR><BR>Thanks very much for implementing these.  My final request is that you move them through test as quickly as possible and onto the live servers =)  I can't wait.<BR><BR></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Killebrew wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe i'm not coming across clearly here........ <P>This doesn't have anything to do with Elitist, casual, or any type of playstyle.  It's about "guild" oriented rewards.  Rewards that are guild oriented like throphies for completion of such raids or titles etc........  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is not specifically directed at Steelheart or anyone else but this quote provides a good starting place.<BR><BR>I just cannot comprehend why this whole concept is difficult to understand.  These raids are NOT targeted for end-game guilds.  They are not targeted towards players that will only do something for a loot based reward.  Didn't you read what the initial description said?  These are meant to help smaller and less experienced guilds grab the basics of raiding.  For bigger, more experienced, higher level, better equiped guilds, these provide a fun thing to do on an off night when you've got a few people that feel like doing something.<BR>Some people find rewards outside of loot or other tangible benefits.  I, for one, and really looking forward to doing these raids as a way to strengthen relationships in my guild, build trust between members, and for a way to challenge ourselves.  Maybe take one group in to one of these and see if you can find a way to win.  Or have 13 people between 50 and 55 and one person level 48 and have everyone mentor the 48 once you get in.<BR>This is also a way to work on guild status with a larger number than strictly doing writs, especially for guilds in different level ranges.  They've also provided a fairly decent tangible reward for completing these raids.  FAIRLY DECENT.  This is not for the top of the game guilds who killed everything and want more loot so their numbers go up.  These are not designed to make you feel better about yourself when you press P and look at your stats.  These are character and relationship building tools that I am VERY excited about.<BR><BR>Moorguard, I do have idea for a change that I think would really add a spark to these.  Again, I am VERY excited about these raids being fixed and cannot wait to try them out with my guild.  However, there, one small change in the loot tables would make them perfect in my eye.  I think that if there was a chance, however small, of fabled loot dropping, that it would provide a much larger demand for these.  Once they have been mastered and interest starts to dwindle, regardless of the guild doing them, if there was even a 2% chance that a really nice fabled item balanced for the level of the instance, I think guild members could be further motivated to continue these.  As a guild leader, I see these raids as an exceptional way to work on GSP as a guild.<BR><BR>Also, for the pre-50 instances, you mention rares, spells and recipes (I think?.)  Will this include Master 1 scrolls? <BR><BR><BR>Thanks very much for implementing these.  My final request is that you move them through test as quickly as possible and onto the live servers =)  I can't wait.<BR><BR></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What you are mentioning about fabled is basically the first version of drayek in T5 he had about a 5% fabled drop rate initially. That ring was godly to people for a very long time.

[frisco4]

LOL yes, I love watching raiders whine, Heres some cheese!!!!!<div></div>

[ca]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> frisco444 wrote:<BR>LOL yes, I love watching raiders whine, Heres some cheese!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>^ family matters reference?</P> <P>I love the sound of this, the only thing that worries me is if they are finally going to fix the raid scaling issues, can we all mentor down to a certain level and expect the mobs to be that level or will it randomly stay at the highest level member even if they are mentored?</P> <P>oh and someone said they didn't see the memory wiping raid mob but in the notes I see one that shuffles aggro, same thing if you ask me, maybe even worse if it randomly shuffles to a healer instead of the person bashing out damage.</P>

[Sah'Tzik]

This is an excellent way to draw in the smaller guilds that don't have the numbers to field 24 people.  Also keep in mind that as the game levels increase and the high end raids become more difficult, it will require the better gear from previous high end raids just to have a chance.  If a guild forms with some friends that are all level 70 but in mixed crafted and legendary gear, they will not be able to simply jump in to the raids for their level because the raid difficulty is based so much on gear, stats, resists. These new guild writ raids will provide a fun place to do stuff as a guild while not requiring the prerequisites of constant farming group instances or prior raids.  There are quite a lot of guilds with players that enjoy the social and gaming aspect and may only meet all together once/twice a week(or less).<div></div>

[electricninjasex]

I always think about my younger cousin in situations like this.  Back in the day my aunt kept buying him toy toolsets to keep him occupied.  But sure enough, those toys would would end up busted or neglected around the yard or in the corner. And we'd be hearing the clang of metal shelves in the garage as he'd be reaching for the real deal, no matter how often his mom scolded him. <div></div>

[Magic]

Speaking of raids, I'm going to want to join one someday.  What is the lowest level raid in the game, where is i, and how would I start it or join a group that will be doing it?  Thanks in advance.

[ca]

Unfortunatly pick up raids in any tier are hard as heck to get, unless its for a quest, any sort of contested you are rarely going to be invited in because most raiding guilds use a point system to divy loot and an outsider can't really work in that setup, I have been lucky enough to get into lots of raids outside my guild but I always have to go lootless, works for me since I enjoy the raid atmosphere more than loot, though I have seen loot pass me by that I have had dreams about, your best bet is just to get into a large guild and see if anyone wants to mentor or hit 50 and go along on these new raids or maybe even start an alt guild, advertise it as such and work on al raid tiers.

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wilin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nobody would raid T7 with crafted gear SUCCESSFULLY, but they will try. I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere. I know of at least one guild that is doing it...and failing I might add. The MT is rolling into Labs with a full suit of xegonite. Just because we know better doesn't mean that everyone does. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LoL. They probably read the pre KoS dev notes that said that Rare crafted were supposed to be a stepping stone to low tier raid gear. 

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:We will do them anyway, but yeah if the loot is a step backwards from fabled and legendary, i cant see any longevity or point to these zones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The loot isn't a step backwards from legendary; it <EM>is</EM> legendary. My previous post described the way we designed the gear and allocated its stat points and such.</P><P>If you're already in fabled, then you aren't the target market for these armor sets.</P><P>These raids will work well for players in situations like these:</P><UL><LI>Guilds with a number of lower-level players who want to take on event-based challenges you don't see in typical single groups</LI><LI>Smaller guilds who can't field a full raid force of 24 but want to try raiding</LI><LI>Higher-level characters who didn't raid at level 50 or 60 and feel like they don't have the gear or knowledge to jump in at 70</LI><LI>Those who haven't raided before and aren't sure if they'd like it</LI><LI>Guilds that want an additional means of earning status</LI><LI>Guilds looking for events that a couple groups can do together and have fun</LI></UL><P>Acquiring loot is not the main purpose for these raids. The loot is added as a useful side benefit intended for a very specific segment of the player population. The main purpose of these raids is to provide fun two-group events that serve as a learning tool while providing the means to earn guild status.</P><P>Again, if you can look at the loot and say "That doesn't benefit me," then chances are you weren't the type of player this gear was meant for.</P><hr></blockquote>Thats fair enoughIm sure you have loads of experts telling you theres a fine line between a zone being empty and being farmed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I glady welcome any new content you guys bring to the table, as do many others im sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />as a side note, i managed to scrape together 6 lvl 70 guildies tonight and we did all the guild raid zones from lvl 10 - 50, was a decent challenge, but the loot table was horrific, i really think some itemization is in needWhat is the purpose of these zones ? i didnt notice any status apart from 1 mob in the lvl 4th zone that gave 2k<p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 AM</span>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:<BR><BR>What is the purpose of these zones ? i didnt notice any status apart from 1 mob in the lvl 4th zone that gave 2k <P>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <SPAN class=date_text>08-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Uh didn't you read, their all getting revamped in LU26.