Why another poison nerf?

[chrno01]

<font color="FF6600"><b>Poisons were fine before the change, why did you completly take away stifle and stun poisons post Tier 7? Also before poisons were either High dmg - low dot, High dot - low dmg, a balance between both or ranging from medium. Now its just a single attack which means less damage because of no dot  or no direct damage. Why was this even changed?</b></font> <div></div>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

They nerfed all handcrafted items- meaning this if they didn't nerf poisons alchys would vge much more profitale. Unfortunately, they've gone and nerfed Pred and Rougue DPS, soloaility and utility in the course of it. I can't see a workaround either....Only possile thing is that Preds and Rogues make their own poisons which is, of course, undesierable to those that don't like tradeskills. I feel your pain, I really do <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xaldo]

They "must" nerf alchys?  So are you trying to say that less people will be using handcrafted poison now because of it? <div></div>

[Severed Ha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chrystolred wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ff6600><B>Poisons were fine before the change, why did you completly take away stifle and stun poisons post Tier 7? Also before poisons were either High dmg - low dot, High dot - low dmg, a balance between both or ranging from medium. Now its just a single attack which means less damage because of no dot  or no direct damage. Why was this even changed?</B></FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Stuns and Stifles where being used to much to Stun lock an encounter.  If you had enough poison users in a group you could perma stun a mob and have no problem defeating it.  This was part of there rebalancing to remove the over use of this tactic by people and to then try to bring mobs back inline to where they should be anyways.  Basically since Stuns/stifles where so plentiful they would dish out large amonts of Spike damage when they could to overcompensate.</P> <P>From what I can see for the Rare T7 Stun poison it has also had its stun time reduced.  Also I believe before it was only 4 Stuns you could get per poison.. Im not to sure what it is now though.</P> <P>As for the Variety of Poisons you use to be able to get.. Well.. To be honest not all that many people used the variety.  Most in general used the High Dmg Low Dot.  This is pretty much still the case in  the point of what people use now.. DD over DoT.  DoT's wouldnt be so bad if they where allowed to run there course but 9 times outta 10 you are wasting a tic or 2 on it if not more sometimes.</P> <P>Overall the poisons did take a small hit to there damage.  But you also over time get a much greater varity.  DD, DoT, Lifetap, Powertap.  Also debuffs to casters or melee types depending on what one you chose to use if any at all.  Also the abiltiy to put a poison on that actually acts like a Detaunt for ya also so that you can dish out more damage with out fear of getting aggro.</P> <P>To me.. Its fine how it is atm.  I wouldnt mind it though if all levels had equivalent poisons though.  Thats about it though.</P>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xaldore wrote:<BR>They "must" nerf alchys?  So are you trying to say that less people will be using handcrafted poison now because of it?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that Alchys would be able to sell items for <STRONG>more</STRONG> money because they're better. You seem to have misinterpreted my post. While I'm at it, can I just ask what the point of your post was? Was it to cause conflict by automatically gamesaying what I post? To be fair, looking at your other posts you don't seem to do this kind of thing regularlly. <BR><BR>In the end, this is what it comes down to: SoE like gamewide nerfs. If they nerf something, they can't help nerfing everything associated so in this respect, I suppose that it is actually the case that they "must" nerf Alchys.</DIV>

[Ama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadly Nightshadow wrote:<BR> They nerfed all handcrafted items- meaning this if they didn't nerf poisons alchys would vge much more profitale. Unfortunately, they've gone and nerfed Pred and Rougue DPS, soloaility and utility in the course of it. I can't see a workaround either....Only possile thing is that Preds and Rogues make their own poisons which is, of course, undesierable to those that don't like tradeskills. I feel your pain, I really do <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>People best be liking tradeskilling they nerfed the snot outta it so much that its garbage right now imho.  You go in get 4 resources and instantly make an items instead of having to sit there putting actual "work" into that item. </P> <P>Right now it feels the devs are on another one of their nerfing tirads and to me it will only be a matter of time before we have a 2nd CU revamp alongside a game revamp like SWG endured.  I must say i'm getting a little bit sick and tired of these nerfs and I mean come on was that stun crap nerf enough of a change.  :smileysad:</P>

[chrno01]

<blockquote><hr>Severed Hand wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Chrystolred wrote:<font color="#ff6600"><b>Poisons were fine before the change, why did you completly take away stifle and stun poisons post Tier 7? Also before poisons were either High dmg - low dot, High dot - low dmg, a balance between both or ranging from medium. Now its just a single attack which means less damage because of no dot  or no direct damage. Why was this even changed?</b></font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Stuns and Stifles where being used to much to Stun lock an encounter.  If you had enough poison users in a group you could perma stun a mob and have no problem defeating it.  This was part of there rebalancing to remove the over use of this tactic by people and to then try to bring mobs back inline to where they should be anyways.  Basically since Stuns/stifles where so plentiful they would dish out large amonts of Spike damage when they could to overcompensate.</p> <p>From what I can see for the Rare T7 Stun poison it has also had its stun time reduced.  Also I believe before it was only 4 Stuns you could get per poison.. Im not to sure what it is now though.</p> <p>As for the Variety of Poisons you use to be able to get.. Well.. To be honest not all that many people used the variety.  Most in general used the High Dmg Low Dot.  This is pretty much still the case in  the point of what people use now.. DD over DoT.  DoT's wouldnt be so bad if they where allowed to run there course but 9 times outta 10 you are wasting a tic or 2 on it if not more sometimes.</p> <p>Overall the poisons did take a small hit to there damage.  But you also over time get a much greater varity.  DD, DoT, Lifetap, Powertap.  Also debuffs to casters or melee types depending on what one you chose to use if any at all.  Also the abiltiy to put a poison on that actually acts like a Detaunt for ya also so that you can dish out more damage with out fear of getting aggro.</p> <p>To me.. Its fine how it is atm.  I wouldnt mind it though if all levels had equivalent poisons though.  Thats about it though.</p><hr></blockquote><font color="FF6600"><b>Your forgetting one thing, the pvp server. You can't chain stun players because they have a immunity after the first stun. Same with stifle, now were left handicaped there. And what kind of type of change is this, its to powerful so instead of scaling it down they just get rid of them? Way to keep ruining a class.</b></font><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<P>So what kind of poisons do you want? How much DPS on average was lost? </P> <P>Bring facts and recommendations to the table or stop whining. You are not helping with the situation.</P>

[Rijacki]

I am not saying I agree with it (in fact I vehemently don't), but I believe the "intent" behind the potion/poison line-up (and "missing" recipes in nearly all crafting classes) was some sort of progression. When we had the archetype -> class -> subclass adventure class progression, it would have made sense to restrict what the player can use at lower levels since they're "learning" their class as it expands. BUT, since you can choose a class at level 1 and actually have all the core abilities and spell/CA lines established by level 14, it is LUDICROUS that there is a lack of certain usable items until level 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 (in the pattern of the OLD adventure progression).  That counts for weapons and armor as well as poison/potions. In the realm of poisons, it is possible to apply 3 poisons at the same time, one each of the 3 categories.  However, you only have 1 category until level 20 and then don't get to even try the 3rd category until level 50.  This is in addition to the fact that stun potions can't be used until level 62 (rare T7).  There was the "intent" to streamline poison and make it easier to use and so reduce the plethora of types in any category so it would be less ambigious which would be the one to use.  In addition the names were standardised to make it easy to know what to use (well, if you have it available to use).  But... NPC poison was unchanged and still has the 5 damage categories (and the gap between NPC sold vs crafted has been decreased again making it even more questionable which is cheaper/better per dose, even when only considering the fuel costs of the crafted). Several alchemists started bringing this up when #24 potions and posions first appeared on Test (less than a week before the LU went Live, of course) and haven't stopped bringing it up. Do -I- think there is any change on the horizon?  Pessimistically.. no.  I don't think they really care about it.  It doesn't matter to the devs that, as far as anything crafted (other than provisioning and carpentry) the game doesn't even start until level 50 or 60.  The rest is now just to "grind" through.  And... for many crafting classes it is arguable that there isn't really anything worth much crafting then. <div></div>

[chrno01]

<font color="FF6600"><b>Cowdenicus you don't even play a scout, and no I don't consider your lvl 16 swashbuckler playing a scout. You ask for facts and not whining yet you try to post a flame  you stupid loser get off the thread. As for comparison thats the new poison. I can't find a picture of torrent of the ages which was 387 dmg and 56 dot. Not only is this less direct damage it has not dot effect, and these poisons only have 100 charges, poisons before were 200 maybe more. And thats the only stun poison now available.</b></font>  <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/T5/CausticPoison-Apothecary.jpg"> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/T7/StupefyingPoison-GrandMaster.jpg"> <font color="FF6600"><b>It's simple to bring back stuns, stifles. Have them become higher in resistability every 10 levels. IE a lvl 20 stun poison would work up until lvl 30. After 30 it becomes more and more easier to resist for your opponent. Sure you should still use them at higher levels but if your 70 using a lvl 20 poison it'll be resisted 100% of the time.</b></font> <div></div>

[Outerspace]

If you have enough poison users to stun lock an encounter, I daresay the encounter would have been defeated whether there were stun poisons or not. Chain cheap shot or something.I used to use the T6 stun poison all the time and I do have a stack of the T7 rare one, but I really don't find any use for it in any groups any more. Essence of Turgur is much better.As for DPS I have been alternating between Adeste's and Grandmaster Caustic on raids lately and the DPS results are pretty much the same. Adeste's has a lower DD but obviously you get the DoT as well. Caustic can rack up a lot higher if you get a larger than normal number of procs, though.<div></div>

[blutste]

<div><blockquote><hr>Chrystolred wrote:<font color="#ff6600"><b><font color="#ff99ff">Cowdenicus you don't even play a scout, and no I don't consider your lvl 16 swashbuckler playing a scout. You ask for facts and not whining yet you try to post a flame  you stupid loser get off the thread.</font> As for comparison thats the new poison. I can't find a picture of torrent of the ages which was 387 dmg and 56 dot. Not only is this less direct damage it has not dot effect, and these poisons only have 100 charges, poisons before were 200 maybe more. And thats the only stun poison now available.</b></font>  <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/T5/CausticPoison-Apothecary.jpg"> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/T7/StupefyingPoison-GrandMaster.jpg"> <font color="#ff6600"><b>It's simple to bring back stuns, stifles. Have them become higher in resistability every 10 levels. IE a lvl 20 stun poison would work up until lvl 30. After 30 it becomes more and more easier to resist for your opponent. Sure you should still use them at higher levels but if your 70 using a lvl 20 poison it'll be resisted 100% of the time.</b></font> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Whining about <b>"RUIN A CLASS" </b>because of a little poison nerfs shows whos the stupid looser. Ridiculous.Wanna Cheese to the whine?</div>

[Xaldo]

My point is that they should have left poisons alone and they are not nerfing alchy profits since everyone needs poisons still the same.  In fact I find myself wasting even more money then before because now poisons have 1 charge when they had 5-7 charges before that and now they also proc like 50-100 times as before it goes up to about 200 times.  One vial of old poison dmg poison(7 charges with 200 procs) is equal to about 14 vials of the new poison(1 charge with 100 procs), not to mention dmg is less.  Alchys making less money?  I dont know about that but I do know that I'm spending more money. <div></div>

[MaeveFedlech]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR><BR>Do -I- think there is any change on the horizon?  Pessimistically.. no.  I don't think they really care about it.  It doesn't matter to the devs that, as far as anything crafted (other than provisioning and carpentry) the game doesn't even start until level 50 or 60.  The rest is now just to "grind" through.  And... for many crafting classes it is arguable that there isn't really anything worth much crafting then.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The sad truth is that they <EM><U>don't</U></EM> care as long as we keep coming back paying our subscriptions and they keep making more and more money off us poor addicted gamers. Sure they may listen public outcry now and again because they want the general population to be happy enough to keep renewing their sub, but that's about it.</P> <P>Really I can't see the point of most of the recent changes, I think it's just another case of SOE fixing what isn't broke to begin with. Ever heard of not rocking the boat Sony?! Not only should the poison have been left alone but jewelry, armor, etc. were fine as well. Nothing wrong with any of them.</P> <P>Just IMHO.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Xaldore wrote:My point is that they should have left poisons alone and they are not nerfing alchy profits since everyone needs poisons still the same.  In fact I find myself wasting even more money then before because now poisons have 1 charge when they had 5-7 charges before that and now they also proc like 50-100 times as before it goes up to about 200 times.  One vial of old poison dmg poison(7 charges with 200 procs) is equal to about 14 vials of the new poison(1 charge with 100 procs), not to mention dmg is less.  Alchys making less money?  I dont know about that but I do know that I'm spending more money. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Except an alchemist can craft 10 vials at once, which means you get 1000 charges for the same combine, and in theory, the same price as the old 7-charge poison. Plus if you need to switch to powertap poisons mid-fight you won't waste as many charges as well, which is a new bonus.

[DmZB]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Pinski wrote:</DIV> <DIV>Except an alchemist can craft 10 vials at once, which means you get <FONT color=#ff0000>1000 charges</FONT> for the same combine, and in theory, the same price as the old 7-charge poison. Plus if you need to switch to powertap poisons mid-fight you won't waste as many charges as well, which is a new bonus. <HR> </DIV> <P>Uhm...i think you mean 1000 procs.</P> <P>10 vials x 1 charge x 100 <EM>procs</EM> = 1000 procs.</P> <P>Old system was 1 vial x 7 charges x 200 procs = 1400 procs</P> <P><EM>And</EM> 1 adept III combine now yields 2 dusts = 2000 procs</P> <P>Old system adept III combine yielded 1 loam = 3 vials = 4200 procs</P> <P>I agree if you switch poisons mid-charge you lose less procs, and since the cost per proc is about the same this is a benefit, albeit small (depending on how much you do this, i typically don't).</P> <P>1 GM poison today @ 1G per vial = 1G/100procs = .01G per proc</P> <P>1 Legendary poison before @ 12G per vial = 12G/7charges/200procs = .008G per proc</P>

[Kodros]

<div><blockquote><hr>MaeveFedlech wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rijacki wrote:Do -I- think there is any change on the horizon?  Pessimistically.. no.  I don't think they really care about it.  It doesn't matter to the devs that, as far as anything crafted (other than provisioning and carpentry) the game doesn't even start until level 50 or 60.  The rest is now just to "grind" through.  And... for many crafting classes it is arguable that there isn't really anything worth much crafting then. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The sad truth is that they <em><u>don't</u></em> care as long as we keep coming back paying our subscriptions and they keep making more and more money off us poor addicted gamers. Sure they may listen public outcry now and again because they want the general population to be happy enough to keep renewing their sub, but that's about it.</p> <p>Really I can't see the point of most of the recent changes, I think it's just another case of SOE fixing what isn't broke to begin with. Ever heard of not rocking the boat Sony?! Not only should the poison have been left alone but jewelry, armor, etc. were fine as well. Nothing wrong with any of them.</p> <p>Just IMHO.</p><hr></blockquote>Ugh...another "SOE doesn't love us" post.  What do you mean they don't care?  If they didn't care, people would quit, SOE loses money...not a very good buisiness plan.  So, yes, they do care about their customers.  When you work on something for 40-80 hours a week, you want the people that use your product to enjoy it.  Now, after saying that, "caring about their customers" doesn't mean "let the customers produce the game".  They will listen to feedback and I'm sure that it helps in making the final decision, but there is also a lot of info that us customers don't have that they do.  It's pretty easy to decide whats good and bad for the game when you don't have all of the raw info.  I like the changes that were done to poisons.  What SOE fixed maybe wasn't "broken" to begin with but it wasn't a very good design.  At least now everything seems to be more clear.  I can easily see what the poison is, how many charges it has, and what it stacks with.</div>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>Kodros wrote:<div>I like the changes that were done to poisons.  What SOE fixed maybe wasn't "broken" to begin with but it wasn't a very good design.  At least now everything seems to be more clear.  I can easily see what the poison is, how many charges it has, and what it stacks with.</div><hr></blockquote>There is no doubt -that- part is better.  I am guessing that your poison user is at least level 40 or perhaps is over level 60.  The main problem is that there are virtually no poisons at all until you get to 50+ and only 20+ has anything other than damage poisons (and then -only- a resistance debuff is added).  That they have the same main name is not a bad thing and -is- easier to find, but.. as a new player, until you hit 40, you would have no clue that you could debuff a target's resistance, slow his attack speed, -and- do damage by having 3 poisons applied.  You also would have no concept of how to have two poison users in a group using different debuffs and effects to maximise potential since you would only have the option of damage poisons to 20 and then ONLY a resist buff available that wasn't damage.  THAT is the problem.  THAT is the "nerf". 60+ poison line-up is fine and has many sought after poisons, the problem is that it seems even the devs don't care much about the game before that point since the same things are not available in any of the tiers before.  It's not the alchemists who suffer, it's those who use poisons.  The poison users were nerfed, not the poison makers.<div></div>

[Thicket Tundrabog]

I agree that poison-makers haven't suffered. I entered the T7 potion and poison market in a big way about a week ago. I made 40 of each common Tier VII potion and poison. Sales have been brisk, but on a limited number of items. For me, my poisons outsell my potions by about 4 to 1.  I nightly have to renew my inventory of Turgur, Hemotoxin, Enfeebling Poison, Fettering Poison, Caustic Poison, Warding Ebb and Ignorant Bliss. The only high selling potions I have are Health and Constitution.I identically price all Tier VII common poisons/potions at 20 silver.<div></div>

[Kodros]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:There is no doubt -that- part is better.  I am guessing that your poison user is at least level 40 or perhaps is over level 60.  The main problem is that there are virtually no poisons at all until you get to 50+ and only 20+ has anything other than damage poisons (and then -only- a resistance debuff is added).  That they have the same main name is not a bad thing and -is- easier to find, but.. as a new player, until you hit 40, you would have no clue that you could debuff a target's resistance, slow his attack speed, -and- do damage by having 3 poisons applied.  You also would have no concept of how to have two poison users in a group using different debuffs and effects to maximise potential since you would only have the option of damage poisons to 20 and then ONLY a resist buff available that wasn't damage.  THAT is the problem.  THAT is the "nerf". 60+ poison line-up is fine and has many sought after poisons, the problem is that it seems even the devs don't care much about the game before that point since the same things are not available in any of the tiers before.  It's not the alchemists who suffer, it's those who use poisons.  The poison users were nerfed, not the poison makers.<div></div><hr></blockquote>70 poison user, 36 Alchemist =)  Oh, I agree with you that the poisons that you can use at different levels is messed up. Thats either a bad design or broken...both are really unacceptable.  </div>

[chrno01]

<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kodros wrote:<div>I like the changes that were done to poisons.  What SOE fixed maybe wasn't "broken" to begin with but it wasn't a very good design.  At least now everything seems to be more clear.  I can easily see what the poison is, how many charges it has, and what it stacks with.</div><hr></blockquote>There is no doubt -that- part is better.  I am guessing that your poison user is at least level 40 or perhaps is over level 60.  The main problem is that there are virtually no poisons at all until you get to 50+ and only 20+ has anything other than damage poisons (and then -only- a resistance debuff is added).  That they have the same main name is not a bad thing and -is- easier to find, but.. as a new player, until you hit 40, you would have no clue that you could debuff a target's resistance, slow his attack speed, -and- do damage by having 3 poisons applied.  You also would have no concept of how to have two poison users in a group using different debuffs and effects to maximise potential since you would only have the option of damage poisons to 20 and then ONLY a resist buff available that wasn't damage.  THAT is the problem.  THAT is the "nerf". 60+ poison line-up is fine and has many sought after poisons, the problem is that it seems even the devs don't care much about the game before that point since the same things are not available in any of the tiers before.  It's not the alchemists who suffer, it's those who use poisons.  The poison users were nerfed, not the poison makers.<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="FF6600"><b>Yes exactly, I thought it was clear that was what I was talking about, I labled off the poisons they took away as well the changes. Personal I have no problem with the change of alchemist however like Rijacki said it was a nerf to us scouts. 62+ has a plentiful supply of poisons ranging from damage, to dots and even life taps and power taps. They have debuffs, stuns and stifles. All which are great. Before that though you have just your damage poisons, lousy snare which any scout which is using a corresponding tier snare poison has already a better snare. And lousy debuffs that really don't do all that good against heroics....as for pvp well I can tell you I would take stuns and stifles over crappy subjugation debuffs any day. The problem is why are these poisons only in a certain tier?! I'll admit that the stun poison might of been a little off being lvl 20 and used up towards 70. However that can easily be solved by making poisons that scale to tier, a level 20 poison will be resisted the more you level forcing you to buy more higher up poisons. There is absolutely no need to throw such a awful nerf out at the already nerfed and renerfed scout classes, especially rangers.</b></font><div></div>

[TeflonS7]

I'm not really sure what the big deal is.  At lvl 20, what do you need other than dmg poisons anyway?  Rangers don't need a stun poison either.  Waste of a poison slot if you ask me.  I have 2 poison users, a 22 Assassin and a 63 Ranger.  Both do a CRAPLOAD of damage and the poisons hit pretty often.  I think a lot of people just need to stop playing the numbers game, i.e. paying much more attention to their numbers (stats, dps, etc.) than they are to their class as a whole.  I've had my ranger since before LU13 and have been through many changes since.  NONE of which were game-breaking in any way.  He was fun to play then, he's fun to play now. <div></div>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:I'm not really sure what the big deal is.  At lvl 20, what do you need other than dmg poisons anyway?  Rangers don't need a stun poison either.  <font color="#ffff00">Waste of a poison slot if you ask me.  </font>I have 2 poison users, a 22 Assassin and a 63 Ranger.  Both do a CRAPLOAD of damage and the poisons hit pretty often.  I think a lot of people just need to stop playing the numbers game, i.e. paying much more attention to their numbers (stats, dps, etc.) than they are to their class as a whole.  I've had my ranger since before LU13 and have been through many changes since.  NONE of which were game-breaking in any way.  He was fun to play then, he's fun to play now. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you can use 3 types of poisons at the same time.  Damage is one of the three types.  Debuffs and stuns are the other 2 types.  Thus you can use, at the same time, a damage poisons, a debuff poison, and a stun (or other "special effect") poison. But only have ONE type to use, you are WASTING the ability to use 3 types of poisons similtaneously.  Which you obviously don't understand because all that you can use is the only ONE type currently available to you at 22 (but why you don't know that at 63 is baffling, did you ever use more than a single poison?  you've been able to use 3 concurrently for a very very long time, pre-LU#13 even). Or were referring to inventory space?<div></div>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kodros wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR><BR>There is no doubt -that- part is better.  I am guessing that your poison user is at least level 40 or perhaps is over level 60.  The main problem is that there are virtually no poisons at all until you get to 50+ and only 20+ has anything other than damage poisons (and then -only- a resistance debuff is added).  That they have the same main name is not a bad thing and -is- easier to find, but.. as a new player, until you hit 40, you would have no clue that you could debuff a target's resistance, slow his attack speed, -and- do damage by having 3 poisons applied.  You also would have no concept of how to have two poison users in a group using different debuffs and effects to maximise potential since you would only have the option of damage poisons to 20 and then ONLY a resist buff available that wasn't damage.  THAT is the problem.  THAT is the "nerf".<BR><BR>60+ poison line-up is fine and has many sought after poisons, the problem is that it seems even the devs don't care much about the game before that point since the same things are not available in any of the tiers before.  <BR><BR>It's not the alchemists who suffer, it's those who use poisons.  The poison users were nerfed, not the poison makers.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>70 poison user, 36 Alchemist =)  <BR><BR>Oh, I agree with you that the poisons that you can use at different levels is messed up. Thats either a bad design or broken...both are really unacceptable.  <BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would go with bad design because this pattern of 'missing recipes' is pretty much the same for most professions. I'm not sure if I can find a good reason for it either <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[TeflonS7]

<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:I'm not really sure what the big deal is.  At lvl 20, what do you need other than dmg poisons anyway?  Rangers don't need a stun poison either.  <font color="#ffff00">Waste of a poison slot if you ask me.  </font>I have 2 poison users, a 22 Assassin and a 63 Ranger.  Both do a CRAPLOAD of damage and the poisons hit pretty often.  I think a lot of people just need to stop playing the numbers game, i.e. paying much more attention to their numbers (stats, dps, etc.) than they are to their class as a whole.  I've had my ranger since before LU13 and have been through many changes since.  NONE of which were game-breaking in any way.  He was fun to play then, he's fun to play now. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you can use 3 types of poisons at the same time.  Damage is one of the three types.  Debuffs and stuns are the other 2 types.  Thus you can use, at the same time, a damage poisons, a debuff poison, and a stun (or other "special effect") poison. But only have ONE type to use, you are WASTING the ability to use 3 types of poisons similtaneously.  Which you obviously don't understand because all that you can use is the only ONE type currently available to you at 22 (but why you don't know that at 63 is baffling, did you ever use more than a single poison?  you've been able to use 3 concurrently for a very very long time, pre-LU#13 even). Or were referring to inventory space?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm aware of how poisons work.  What I'm saying is that it is no huge loss to not be able to use a stun poison at lvl 22.  I always used multiple poisons when I could.  If all I can use at 22 is a dmg poison, then so be it.  And how is my opinion that a stun poison is a waste of 1 of 3 slots indicative of me not knowing how poisons work?  On my ranger I use a DD, debuff Wis, and decrease att speed poison.  The 3 of those are just fine for my needs; I don't feel I need a stun poison.  Hence my comment about wasting a slot.<div></div>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:I'm not really sure what the big deal is.  At lvl 20, what do you need other than dmg poisons anyway?  Rangers don't need a stun poison either.  <font color="#ffff00">Waste of a poison slot if you ask me.  </font>I have 2 poison users, a 22 Assassin and a 63 Ranger.  Both do a CRAPLOAD of damage and the poisons hit pretty often.  I think a lot of people just need to stop playing the numbers game, i.e. paying much more attention to their numbers (stats, dps, etc.) than they are to their class as a whole.  I've had my ranger since before LU13 and have been through many changes since.  NONE of which were game-breaking in any way.  He was fun to play then, he's fun to play now. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you can use 3 types of poisons at the same time.  Damage is one of the three types.  Debuffs and stuns are the other 2 types.  Thus you can use, at the same time, a damage poisons, a debuff poison, and a stun (or other "special effect") poison. But only have ONE type to use, you are WASTING the ability to use 3 types of poisons similtaneously.  Which you obviously don't understand because all that you can use is the only ONE type currently available to you at 22 (but why you don't know that at 63 is baffling, did you ever use more than a single poison?  you've been able to use 3 concurrently for a very very long time, pre-LU#13 even). Or were referring to inventory space?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm aware of how poisons work.  What I'm saying is that it is no huge loss to not be able to use a stun poison at lvl 22.  I always used multiple poisons when I could.  If all I can use at 22 is a dmg poison, then so be it.  And how is my opinion that a stun poison is a waste of 1 of 3 slots indicative of me not knowing how poisons work?  On my ranger I use a DD, debuff Wis, and decrease att speed poison.  The 3 of those are just fine for my needs; I don't feel I need a stun poison.  Hence my comment about wasting a slot.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Simple, you are not using the capability to the fullest, therefore you are wasting part of the capability.  Unless you are saying that poison users  should only be able to use 1 poison at any time, i.e. only have one poison "slot" because anything more is a waste. Whether someone at 22 were to use a stun or not is actually not the point.  Yes, the low level stun poisons which some players were using is gone, removed, no longer available in any form in the game.  But.. there are other poisons that fit in the "effect" category: turgers (attack speed debuff), ignorant bliss (de-aggro), and fettering (snare).  NONE of those are available for use until level 40.  So, that capacity for being able to use three poisons at the same time is WASTED since there is no effect poison they can use for a 3rd.  Not having every poison available for every level isn't even the problem, actually, but not having at least one or two of every category available for every level IS hamstringing poison users and WASTING their potential ability to use poisons. Let me put it another way... At 50+ you -can- use 3 poisons (dd, wis debuff, and decrease attack speed), so why can't a level 20 poisoner also use 3?  You can choose to be an assassin at level 1, but you can't really play an assassin fully with full use of poisons until level 50+.<div></div>

[tricksyO]

<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<blockquote><hr>TeflonS7 wrote:I'm not really sure what the big deal is.  At lvl 20, what do youneed other than dmg poisons anyway?  Rangers don't need a stunpoison either.  <font color="#ffff00">Waste of a poison slot if you ask me.  </font>I have2 poison users, a 22 Assassin and a 63 Ranger.  Both do a CRAPLOADof damage and the poisons hit pretty often.  I think a lot ofpeople just need to stop playing the numbers game, i.e. paying muchmore attention to their numbers (stats, dps, etc.) than they are totheir class as a whole.  I've had my ranger since before LU13 andhave been through many changes since.  NONE of which weregame-breaking in any way.  He was fun to play then, he's fun toplay now.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you can use 3 types of poisons atthe same time.  Damage is one of the three types.  Debuffsand stuns are the other 2 types.  Thus you can use, at the sametime, a damage poisons, a debuff poison, and a stun (or other "specialeffect") poison.But only have ONE type to use, you are WASTING the ability to use 3types of poisons similtaneously.  Which you obviously don'tunderstand because all that you can use is the only ONE type currentlyavailable to you at 22 (but why you don't know that at 63 is baffling,did you ever use more than a single poison?  you've been able touse 3 concurrently for a very very long time, pre-LU#13 even).Or were referring to inventory space?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'maware of how poisons work.  What I'm saying is that it is no hugeloss to not be able to use a stun poison at lvl 22.  I always usedmultiple poisons when I could.  If all I can use at 22 is a dmgpoison, then so be it.  And how is my opinion that a stun poisonis a waste of 1 of 3 slots indicative of me not knowing how poisonswork?  On my ranger I use a DD, debuff Wis, and decrease att speedpoison.  The 3 of those are just fine for my needs; I don't feel Ineed a stun poison.  Hence my comment about wasting a slot.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're happy with your poison layout and thats cool, but alot of other poison users would like the option of stun/stifle poisons at all levels. Stun poison is in the game but only in the highest of tiers. I'd very much like to see it in various scaled down forms across all tiers down to 20, along with the other poisons/potions that only appear int he highest of tiers.

[Cowdenic]

<P>no stun poisons for lowbies</P> <P> </P>

[mayhem111]

Also it would be nice when you apply a poison it would actually overwrite the one there instead of doing nothing.  I've lost a charge of adeste's and a few others cause I forgot to delete the previous one first.

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thicket Tundrabog wrote:<BR>I agree that poison-makers haven't suffered. I entered the T7 potion and poison market in a big way about a week ago. I made 40 of each common Tier VII potion and poison. Sales have been brisk, but on a limited number of items. For me, my poisons outsell my potions by about 4 to 1.  I nightly have to renew my inventory of Turgur, Hemotoxin, Enfeebling Poison, Fettering Poison, Caustic Poison, Warding Ebb and Ignorant Bliss. The only high selling potions I have are Health and Constitution.<BR><BR>I identically price all Tier VII common poisons/potions at 20 silver.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You would be undersold on befallen. I have mine at 20 silver too but that is fine. I dont have to stand at the assembly line as long when I finally decide to refill my 5 t7 potion cabinets and the T7 sales crate that I use for the non standard items like legendary and masters I sell as well as poison/potions.  There are 3 or 5 people underselling me. lol<BR>

[BedlamX]

<div><blockquote><hr>MaeveFedlech wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rijacki wrote:Do -I- think there is any change on the horizon?  Pessimistically.. no.  I don't think they really care about it.  It doesn't matter to the devs that, as far as anything crafted (other than provisioning and carpentry) the game doesn't even start until level 50 or 60.  The rest is now just to "grind" through.  And... for many crafting classes it is arguable that there isn't really anything worth much crafting then. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The sad truth is that they <em><u>don't</u></em> care as long as we keep coming back paying our subscriptions and they keep making more and more money off us poor addicted gamers. Sure they may listen public outcry now and again because they want the general population to be happy enough to keep renewing their sub, but that's about it.</p> <p>Really I can't see the point of most of the recent changes, I think it's just another case of SOE fixing what isn't broke to begin with. Ever heard of not rocking the boat Sony?! Not only should the poison have been left alone but jewelry, armor, etc. were fine as well. Nothing wrong with any of them.</p> <p>Just IMHO.</p><hr></blockquote>/agree with one addition PVP servers are now the priority for SOE so I believe anything they do these days are directed toward tthat and the rest be dammed.</div>

[Rijacki]

<blockquote><hr>BedlamX wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MaeveFedlech wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rijacki wrote:Do -I- think there is any change on the horizon?  Pessimistically.. no.  I don't think they really care about it.  It doesn't matter to the devs that, as far as anything crafted (other than provisioning and carpentry) the game doesn't even start until level 50 or 60.  The rest is now just to "grind" through.  And... for many crafting classes it is arguable that there isn't really anything worth much crafting then. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The sad truth is that they <em><u>don't</u></em> care as long as we keep coming back paying our subscriptions and they keep making more and more money off us poor addicted gamers. Sure they may listen public outcry now and again because they want the general population to be happy enough to keep renewing their sub, but that's about it.</p> <p>Really I can't see the point of most of the recent changes, I think it's just another case of SOE fixing what isn't broke to begin with. Ever heard of not rocking the boat Sony?! Not only should the poison have been left alone but jewelry, armor, etc. were fine as well. Nothing wrong with any of them.</p> <p>Just IMHO.</p><hr></blockquote>/agree with one addition PVP servers are now the priority for SOE so I believe anything they do these days are directed toward tthat and the rest be dammed.</div><hr></blockquote>If that were true, then the poisons would get the additional types through the tiers, specifically stuptefy earlier than 62 (use level, not crafting level).<div></div>

[BedlamX]

All I am saying is that you get a bunch of cryers on the forums about scouts and pvp so one easy solution is to remove and nerf the poisons to make the scout less powerfull.  It wont make everyone happy but whatever it takes to keep the subs rolling in. PVP is SOE new baby all changes are geared toward that end. Just look at Jewelery and Armor Resists removed in my opinion to help casters hit their target with little resist.  Same goes true for potions and poisons nerfed to accomidate PVP.