Reduce Root Usage

[Maroger]

<DIV>This is insane!!! Just about every recipe in every tradeskill <FONT color=#ffcc00>NOW USES ROOTS</FONT>!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is up with this -- for provisioners no more packages of spice, no more eggs etc -- nothing but these *&$#^%( roots. I think this demonstrates a <FONT color=#ff0000>TOTAL LACK</FONT> of effort, coupled with laziness and a get-it-done- quick attitude  to design a decent tradeskill  on the part of the designers. This crap came in with the tradeskill revamp and needs to go out on the dustbin of failed ideas!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get rid of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] roots -- there are plenty of other things that you can use -- look at all the soft metal that gets harvested and deleted -- do you make much use of that except for Sages -- NO - but you have<FONT color=#ff9900> ROOTS EVERYWHERE</FONT>!!!</DIV>

[Calthine]

<P>Jewelers use soft metals and gems too.</P> <P>Personally, I don't have any problem getting roots at any Tier.  There are plenty of spawns.  Scads.</P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <P>Jewelers use soft metals and gems too.</P> <P>Personally, I don't have any problem getting roots at any Tier.  There are plenty of spawns.  Scads.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know they have increased the amount of roots in a tier but it is still a (*&^& nuisance to have to keep so many roots on hand. I was cooking with my provision and I ran out of Belladonna roots. </P> <P>I just find the root usage excessive and unimaginative -- why can't we have packets of spice and eggs and all the stuff we used to use instead of <FONT color=#ff9900>ROOTS</FONT>!!</P> <P>PS - I can't give silver away it is so useless and most soft metals sell for just a few coppers whereas in Freeport roots up there at like 25S.</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Maroger on <span class=date_text>07-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 PM</span>

[ironman2000]

Not to mention 8 roots for the new dresses and suits.  its 8 roots and 1 pelt.  I can understand it being a larger number to make them, but something more in like of 4 or 5 roots would be good enough.

[Lilj]

<P>I don't have problems with finding roots either in any tier (T1-T7), it's the hard ore that is my biggest problem and where I can find myself lacking raws.  Besides I don't mind the provisioner needs raws from more than 2 nodes now, and that is my own lvl 49 provisioner speaking. It would be way too easy if I could just buy half of my resources on the wholesaler <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Edit: Soft metals/gems are used by Sages, Jewelers (and lots of it) and Carpenters. Not sure if there are more, but I wouldn't be surprised. </P> <P>Message Edited by Liljna on <SPAN class=date_text>07-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Liljna on <span class=date_text>07-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

Alchies also use them meaning soft metald and jewels.

[ukjay]

Surely roots replace the old systems alchy part, well thats gone now, no more subs, So why do we have to replace it!Why not make it follow more along the lines that make sense for each TSArmorer - Metal and peltsAlchie - Loams and gemsTailor - Metal and rootsCarpenter - Wood and metalTry to mix it up so for each raw there is an equal number of tradeskills using those raws. Provisioners are kinda seperate anyway and im sure would have no problems with the changes.<div></div>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ukjay wrote:<BR>Surely roots replace the old systems alchy part, well thats gone now, no more subs, So why do we have to replace it!<BR>Why not make it follow more along the lines that make sense for each TS<BR><BR>Armorer - Metal and pelts<BR>Alchie - Loams and gems<BR>Tailor - Metal and roots<BR>Carpenter - Wood and metal<BR><BR>Try to mix it up so for each raw there is an equal number of tradeskills using those raws. Provisioners are kinda seperate anyway and im sure would have no problems with the changes.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually from a provisioners point of view the change sucks -- now insteads of eggs to make out omelets we have roots, instead of spices for our grilled chops we now have roots. Some of our drink were we used liquids now have Roots. Basically they took a lot of stuff off the TS merchant and replaced them in the recipes with roots. </P> <P>Also since roots are in such high demand due to high usage, you now have to go out and spend a lot of time harvesting these roots. The price of roots on the brokers are out of sight whereas the soft metals are selling for coppers as they are unwanted.</P> <P>I really think they should reduce the root usage in the recipes!!<BR></P>

[Gorhauth]

Roots are a lot easier to get than the provisioning raws you need.  Every root node you see has roots in it.  Every bush you see might or might not have the raw you need in it.  I run out of the other stuff long before I come close to running out of roots.  Even right now, I have over four stacks of roots in my inventory and like five total (not stacks) of food raws.Complaining about roots is the least of your worries as a provisioner.<div></div>

[Ebjelen]

<P></P> <HR> Gorhauth wrote:<BR>Roots are a lot easier to get than the provisioning raws you need.  Every root node you see has roots in it.  Every bush you see might or might not have the raw you need in it.  <BR> <HR> <BR> <P>The problem with that idea is that only provisioners need the plant nodes. All of the other professions are harvesting the roots, wood, and traps, leaving harvest tables full of nothing but plant nodes. I've seen it too many times. Harvest items from the plant nodes are about the only common items that sell above a silver because there is so little of it on the broker.</P> <P>Provisioner was always the easiest tradeskill because you used a single station and a single skill. However, I always considered provisioner one of the more elegant tradeskills because it seemed so life like. Maybe we in the west don't enjoy batwing cruchies, but some cultures might. Having to use bread to make a sandwhich made sense.</P> <P>I know you can make potato bread, but rudebega(sp?) bread? ok, maybe zucchini bread. hmmm Eggplant just doesn't seem like eggs.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Here's an idea how about harvesting eggs from trapping nodes instead of things like elephant meat.</FONT></STRONG> That idea leaves room for 7 different kinds of eggs. <FONT color=#ffff00>How about a grain node for harvesting cereal and herb type plants while the fruits and berries stay on the shrubs. Also, maybe add some of the veggies to the root nodes, like squash, those are vine plants.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>The trick here is to replace the system you don't like with something do-able. Complain yes, but how about some ideas on how to fix the problem. I'm still waiting to see more harvest nodes in the water. I could never fathom why the rivers and oceans were so barren in EQ2. Must have been al the shaking from the rending.</FONT></P>

[Simon Snowlock]

They had to counter the lack of subcombines with something. Increasing demand for roots seems like a great deal if I don't have to make subcombines anymore. Like Calthine I've never had an issue with not finding enough roots.

[Madmoon]

<P>The OP is right.  They use roots EVERYWHERE, and in ridiculous quantities.  Every other tradeskill ingredient sells for 1 cp (2, with the broker charge) and roots sell for 12-30 silver, depending on the Tier.  That's 1,000 to 3,000 times the expense for other ingredients.  That kind of imbalance alone demonstrates how out-of-whack the roots usage is.  Some server may have one tier in a more normal range (though even if the root sold for 1 silver, that's still a hundred times more than the other ingredients,) but another server could probably give even more extreme examples than I did.</P> <P>I have a tailor and and alchemist, and the root's problem is a huge issue.  Crafting is mostly a timesink, even now, but the requirements for roots is a real depressant on an already questionable activity.</P>

[Druzgotek]

<DIV>I have level 40+ jeweler, armorer, sage, alchemist and tailor. Roots are the sole reason why my harvesting is two times longer than it would normally be.</DIV> <DIV>But oh well.</DIV>

[Geekyone]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <P>Jewelers use soft metals and gems too.</P> <P>Personally, I don't have any problem getting roots at any Tier.  There are plenty of spawns.  Scads.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know they have increased the amount of roots in a tier but it is still a (*&^& nuisance to have to keep so many roots on hand. I was cooking with my provision and I ran out of Belladonna roots. </P> <P>I just find the root usage excessive and unimaginative -- why can't we have packets of spice and eggs and all the stuff we used to use instead of <FONT color=#ff9900>ROOTS</FONT>!!</P> <P>PS - I can't give silver away it is so useless and most soft metals sell for just a few coppers whereas in Freeport roots up there at like 25S.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I searched the broker on my sever in FP for all tiers of roots and came up empty.<BR>

[TaleraRis]

It is rather excessive. The one component I always seem to run out of when crafting is roots. Some recipes can use a single hard metal, or a single pelt, and then use 5, 6,7 roots, especially in tailoring. Their usage in comparison to other raws could definitely use some adjustment. I've gotten into the habit when I go out of making sure I have about 8 stacks of roots, and only 2 or so of the other components, because I know those 2 stacks of other materials will take me as far as that many stacks of roots. <div></div>

[Ebarel]

<DIV>plese dont forget HARD ORE in that discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As there is only 50% supply in harde ore due to the loam and there are 2 classes (armorer/weaponsmith) with HUGE need (compared to only 1 -tailor- for roots) and most other classes also need good amounts (tailors/bags, jewelers, woodworker, carpenter -not sure on alchi)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>of course i fully agree that the roots used are way too high. The simple copy/paste for all recipes made it simple to manage but the imbalance in needed raws and supply in general never was as bad as now. The higher output of one node compensates partially but in my experience the average still is around 2 per pull. More than half pulls are 1, some 3s, an occasional 5 and the 10 only happens with the rare (but not all rares).</DIV> <DIV>As stated and calculated before by couple other ppl the ressource useage went up WAY more than 2 times!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And worst of all is, with the "NEW" system you cant lvl at all if you dont have ore/roots. With subcombines i could at least lvl on interims or worts - maybe  slow xp but needed anyway later and at least some progress. I could use all the cheap or surplus on broker to get SOME xp </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so it was:  no ore/roots = slower (but cheap) xp on interims/worts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- now it is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO ORE/ROOT = no crafting</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[graxnip]

Gotta agree on the last post there.I've started my carpenter up again a few days ago - I left off with him at lvl 53 ish several months ago when they first announced the TS changes.Nowadays as a carpenter I tend to use 3 of any given raw in my recipes. So not as bad as needing 8 roots to make a robe from what I saw above. the material usage is fairly evenly spread out with a slight emphasis on wood which sounds logical.When I go harvesting I tend to harvest everything in sight, food raws I post off to my guild provisioner. At the end of any harvesting session, I tend to have huge amounts of wood and roots, since those nodes only give 1 type of raw. The soft metal nodes are not an issue for me as I tend to have tons built up in my bank across all tiers since I harvest every one I see for adept 3s. My personal bottleneck at the moment is with the hard metals like indium. I cant get enough of them, in most carpenter recipes now i use 4 or 5 wood ,3 roots, and 3 indium, toss in the occasional soft metal. The problem is now that I am 59 I literally have a 18 slot pack filled with sandalwood. I have roughly 2 stacks of indium.   Like one of the previous posters mentioned, I used to have the ability to take this lumber and just grind out planks to  just make it to my next tier.  now its just silly how many extra materials i have in my bank now that are useless without having a somewhat equal amount of indium.plus Ive been having lousy luck with the harvests.. you have harvested 5 loams, you have harvested 3 loam, you have harvested 1 indium...off the topic though, I am digging these changes overall - was leveling up my jeweler alt yesterday when I received a tell asking if I could make 2 T3 imbued rings - I sort of froze a second thinking uhh oh man what is involved with that and at first my first instinct was to reply 'no', but actually took me 5 mins to crank them out - no figuring out what wort I needed- etc.. so nice to be able to fulfill an order and help the person out like that.the bad side of the ts changes imo - is that I get insanely bored making the same recipe OVER AND OVER .. the earlier system at least gave some mental diversions in terms of ok i need 20 planks, so thats 40 resins.. 20 studs.. 40 tempers.. ok go to the forge - make the bars, make the studs.. go to the wood station crank out what i need here.. etc..now that I am at 1 station, i find myself nodding off faster these days <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ShonT]

<DIV>When my provisioner hit 58 I went to buy succulent roots to make the prickly pear cookies. Cheapest was something like 80s each and there were only about 50 of them, all the rest over 1g on the broker. I've been keeping an eye on it since, and over half the nights since then the cheapest succulent roots are over 1g each. Sometimes they get more reasonable, I now buy whenever I see any under 30s, but thats few and far between. I'm dreading the expense of levelling my carpenter through tier 6.</DIV>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebarel wrote:<BR> <DIV>plese dont forget HARD ORE in that discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As there is only 50% supply in harde ore due to the loam and there are 2 classes (armorer/weaponsmith) with HUGE need (compared to only 1 -tailor- for roots) and most other classes also need good amounts (tailors/bags, jewelers, woodworker, carpenter -not sure on alchi)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>of course i fully agree that the roots used are way too high. The simple copy/paste for all recipes made it simple to manage but the imbalance in needed raws and supply in general never was as bad as now. The higher output of one node compensates partially but in my experience the average still is around 2 per pull. More than half pulls are 1, some 3s, an occasional 5 and the 10 only happens with the rare (but not all rares).</DIV> <DIV>As stated and calculated before by couple other ppl the ressource useage went up WAY more than 2 times!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And worst of all is, with the "NEW" system you cant lvl at all if you dont have ore/roots. With subcombines i could at least lvl on interims or worts - maybe  slow xp but needed anyway later and at least some progress. I could use all the cheap or surplus on broker to get SOME xp </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so it was:  no ore/roots = slower (but cheap) xp on interims/worts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- now it is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO ORE/ROOT = no crafting</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.</P> <P>I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.</P> <P> </P>

[Ebarel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Liljna wrote:</P> <P><BR>If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.</P> <P>I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes.  "IF YOU HAD to use oil or washes"  but the point you didnt seem to understand is: YOU DIDNT HAVE TO use oil or washes and COULD do at least something (as i posted). </P> <P>Fact: Pre-LU you COULD level (slowly) i.e. as a tailor or weaponsmith making tempers (on soft ores) resins (on wood) or on interims (there were some which didnt use oil or washes! As i posted, slow xp, but at least something. You could even produce vendor-trash making stuff with the crossoverskills and make a little bit of profit selling to vendor and using 0 of the "hard-to-get-raws" and save those for the products you wanted to make. Now all non-rare product i make as a tailor (except bags) are vendortrash, with 0 profit (or a loss if your are a prov), with all the precious roots/ore wasted</P> <P> </P> <P>Fact: Post-LU as all recipes for a tailor or armorer use either hard ore or roots (most use both for armorers and bags for tailors)</P> <P>NO ROOT = no crafting = NO XP (just tell me 1 thing you can craft now as a tailor without roots)</P> <P> </P> <P>and even for recipes that needed washes (1 wash/oil, where 4 washes came from 1 root) i.e. for a bag you needed</P> <P>Pre-LU: 2 wash for pelt to leather, 1 oil for hide plate = 3/4 root  and only 1 hard ore for the buckle, the tempers could be made from soft ore</P> <P>Post-LU: i.e.  horned leather backpack (i know T7 wasnt changed, just for the max numbers - lower tiers need less raws, just as an example) 5 pelt, 4 roots, 2 hard ore</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[graxnip]

<div><blockquote><hr>Liljna wrote:<div></div> <p>If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.</p> <p>I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.</p> <hr></blockquote>true, but it helped that you would get 4 worts from a single raw.The only way I see this as an issue is with people who are a lvl 10 adventurer/60 tradeskiller who have no choice but to buy ingredients. Especially in less than lucrative professions.</div>

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebarel wrote:<BR> <DIV>plese dont forget HARD ORE in that discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As there is only 50% supply in harde ore due to the loam and there are 2 classes (armorer/weaponsmith) with HUGE need (compared to only 1 -tailor- for roots) and most other classes also need good amounts (tailors/bags, jewelers, woodworker, carpenter -not sure on alchi)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>of course i fully agree that the roots used are way too high. The simple copy/paste for all recipes made it simple to manage but the imbalance in needed raws and supply in general never was as bad as now. The higher output of one node compensates partially but in my experience the average still is around 2 per pull. More than half pulls are 1, some 3s, an occasional 5 and the 10 only happens with the rare (but not all rares).</DIV> <DIV>As stated and calculated before by couple other ppl the ressource useage went up WAY more than 2 times!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And worst of all is, with the "NEW" system you cant lvl at all if you dont have ore/roots. With subcombines i could at least lvl on interims or worts - maybe  slow xp but needed anyway later and at least some progress. I could use all the cheap or surplus on broker to get SOME xp </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so it was:  no ore/roots = slower (but cheap) xp on interims/worts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- now it is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO ORE/ROOT = no crafting</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.</P> <P>I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A single root meant you had 4 combines, though. In this system, a single root is most likely not even going to get you a single combine, unless it's in the lower tiers where less resources are used. Even classes that don't use roots as their main component, for example I'm a weaponsmith on my main, use more than 1 in their combines. So the return is much less and the usage is much much higher than it was before, creating the stumbling block of not being able to xp without this one component that is out of whack with the requirements of the other components.

[Rastaah]

Gives whole new meaning to the word "Rootbeer' har har.

[Rast]

I honestly believe my effective usage of roots has gone up by a factor of 10 or more since the LU.  But the other issue is, you lost flexibility too.  Now I am forced to use three comps for everything I make (ever recipe I have is ore/pelts/roots).  Where as before, I could make tempers out of the soft metals/gems.  I could make wood planks out of nothing but wood, etc.

[Magic]

<P>Let me support the usage of roots in food.  Consider ginger, onions, and the various other flavorful roots used in cooking in real life.  Just because a raw in your inventory says roots, it doesn't mean that it is woody and useless.  Roots have a wonderful flavor in food and, as an added bonus, contain oils, resins, and fibers that can be used in multiple crafts!  We should rejoice rather than complain.</P> <P>What a joy there is in cooking!!!</P>

[Ebjelen]

<div></div><div></div> <p>The problem is not that roots are being used for cooking, although my previous suggestions may have led others to infer that logic.</p> <p>The problem is not enough roots. this relates to the original problem of using chaos machines to randomly ditribute harvest nodes. Fishing, Traping, ore mine, mineral mine, food and roots; that's only 5 node types. Previously we had 6. Even with the six, we saw what would happen when people shunned the fungus nodes. With only 5 types, we can manipulate the chaos machines more easily. The evidence of this is the plethora of food nodes in a lot of common harvest spawn tables.</p> <p>Test this your self. Go find a good harvest spot and harvest everything but food. Each node that respawns has a 1 in 5 chance of being food. That means more food will spawn over several iterations. Eventually there will be nothing but food nodes.</p> <p>Go find a book on chaos math, or fractals, and stuidy both chaos machines and error propagation. Until the chaos machines become more intelligent, the root problem will persist. [pun intended]</p><p>Message Edited by Ebjelen on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[HazlenutElf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aljola wrote:<BR> <P>Let me support the usage of roots in food.  Consider ginger, onions, and the various other flavorful roots used in cooking in real life.  Just because a raw in your inventory says roots, it doesn't mean that it is woody and useless.  Roots have a wonderful flavor in food and, as an added bonus, contain oils, resins, and fibers that can be used in multiple crafts!  We should rejoice rather than complain.</P> <P>What a joy there is in cooking!!!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Huh? This makes no sense to me. This post has nothing to do with if roots in food makes sense from an RP standpoint. The issue is that roots (and ore) are needed way to much in these new recipes when you factor in how much they are used by all trade skills and in what quantities. The broker prices atest to this. While other raws get deleted, given away, or put on the broker for 1c roots (and ore) are consistantly expensive. What is there to rejoice in about that (unless your a plat selling harvester).

[Sadaro]

The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest.  In either case, very few roots get put on the market.I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?Sadaram<div></div>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sadaro wrote:<BR>The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.<BR><BR>This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest.  <BR><BR>In either case, very few roots get put on the market.<BR><BR>I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:<BR>- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)<BR>- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.<BR><BR>Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.<BR><BR>Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?<BR><BR>Sadaram<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My armorer doing T4 used 2 roots a recipe -- that is obscene. Why does an armorer needs roots!!<BR>

[flemer]

<DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> searched the broker on my sever in FP for all tiers of roots and came up empty.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try checking under 'root' instead.  I had a saved search set up on the broker for 'roots', then it took me a while to notice that they'd changed the name on one of the recent updates and removed the s.  Some mad hope that it would help with the naming of them in recipes where more than one is required.  I mean rooties instead of rootsies of course....</P> <P>Usually loads of rootsies on the broker / fence here on Runnyeye, apart from succulant ones, and I'm having a hard time finding them while harvesting.  Anyone who's gone past this tier fancy sharing their secret hiding place.</P> <P> </P>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebarel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Liljna wrote:</P> <P><BR>If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.</P> <P>I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes.  "IF YOU HAD to use oil or washes"  but the point you didnt seem to understand is: YOU DIDNT HAVE TO use oil or washes and COULD do at least something (as i posted).</P> <P>Fact: Pre-LU you COULD level (slowly) i.e. as a tailor or weaponsmith making tempers (on soft ores) resins (on wood) or on interims (there were some which didnt use oil or washes! As i posted, slow xp, but at least something. You could even produce vendor-trash making stuff with the crossoverskills and make a little bit of profit selling to vendor and using 0 of the "hard-to-get-raws" and save those for the products you wanted to make. Now all non-rare product i make as a tailor (except bags) are vendortrash, with 0 profit (or a loss if your are a prov), with all the precious roots/ore wasted</P> <P> </P> <P>Fact: Post-LU as all recipes for a tailor or armorer use either hard ore or roots (most use both for armorers and bags for tailors)</P> <P>NO ROOT = no crafting = NO XP (just tell me 1 thing you can craft now as a tailor without roots)</P> <P> </P> <P>and even for recipes that needed washes (1 wash/oil, where 4 washes came from 1 root) i.e. for a bag you needed</P> <P>Pre-LU: 2 wash for pelt to leather, 1 oil for hide plate = 3/4 root  and only 1 hard ore for the buckle, the tempers could be made from soft ore</P> <P>Post-LU: i.e.  horned leather backpack (i know T7 wasnt changed, just for the max numbers - lower tiers need less raws, just as an example) 5 pelt, 4 roots, 2 hard ore</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm, I did get your point. That pre-lu you could in fact lvl up on something you didn't use. I just see it as EXTREMELY silly to level up on things I shouldn't use, so I never did it, and I never considered it (it would be faster to go out and harvest what I needed and then use it to make something worthwhile).</P> <P>But yes, I guess you are right. Anyone with the apothecary books could make some kind of wort to get xp, even if they didn't need it. I just find this such an extreme and theorical situation, that I'm tempted to call your argument bogus <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Edit: I deleted some angry stuff I wrote, I'm regretting saying it even if I meant it. No need to get the flames going.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Liljna on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:38 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Liljna on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sadaro wrote:<BR>The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.<BR><BR>This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest.  <BR><BR>In either case, very few roots get put on the market.<BR><BR>I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:<BR>- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)<BR>- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.<BR><BR>Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.<BR><BR>Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?<BR><BR>Sadaram<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My armorer doing T4 used 2 roots a recipe -- that is obscene. Why does an armorer needs roots!!<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.</P> <P>Hmm, I'm not sure if there is any point in using logic when we talk about what raws are used for what. The balance for the game outweights the logic, and I have a feeling I prefer the balance instead of the logic. But else you are probably right, a smith in the real world probably don't use any roots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sadaro wrote:<BR>The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.<BR><BR>This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest.  <BR><BR>In either case, very few roots get put on the market.<BR><BR>I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:<BR>- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)<BR>- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells<BR>- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.<BR><BR>Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.<BR><BR>Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?<BR><BR>Sadaram<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My armorer doing T4 used 2 roots a recipe -- that is obscene. Why does an armorer needs roots!!<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.</P> <P>Hmm, I'm not sure if there is any point in using logic when we talk about what raws are used for what. The balance for the game outweights the logic, and I have a feeling I prefer the balance instead of the logic. But else you are probably right, a smith in the real world probably don't use any roots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My SK wears plate so I always did the plate recipes and when I did the TS writs I would take the one for plate -- so I never used roots. Was shocked to find them in the plate recipes. </P> <P>In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern. <BR></P>

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

<blockquote>Maroger wrote:In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern.</blockquote>You used one wood and one resin (for the paper for the pattern) per chainmail piece, where you could use roots instead, so on a full set, you could "save" nine roots by using wood for the resins and paper. (I say "save" because I see using wood as the default - you could spend nine roots to save the wood, but why would one do that?) That still left 33 roots for a chainmail set (vs. 21 now).Actually, the number of roots you <em>could</em> use for a set of chain (42) is exactly double the number you use now for chain and for plate, so you could say they have been evened out across recipies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm a dirge and armorer, and I used to make mostly chain armors (primarily because there was less competition on the broker because other armorers preferred to make plate, while there are more classes using chain)./RS

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ronin SpoilSpot wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maroger wrote:<BR>In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You used one wood and one resin (for the paper for the pattern) per chainmail piece, where you could use roots instead, so on a full set, you could "save" nine roots by using wood for the resins and paper. (I say "save" because I see using wood as the default - you could spend nine roots to save the wood, but why would one do that?) <BR>That still left 33 roots for a chainmail set (vs. 21 now).<BR><BR>Actually, the number of roots you <EM>could</EM> use for a set of chain (42) is exactly double the number you use now for chain and for plate, so you could say they have been evened out across recipies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR>I'm a dirge and armorer, and I used to make mostly chain armors (primarily because there was less competition on the broker because other armorers preferred to make plate, while there are more classes using chain).<BR><BR>/RS<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I primarily crafted for my toons - but with the nerf to stats -- it is no longer worthwhile. Now I craft to level and without TS writs it is a chore. I really miss the separate components and the WORTS -- it certainly made making armor less tedious when you get so few recipes per level.</P> <P>I leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.<BR></P>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>II leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Was that from lvl 1? Because that's darned impressive and fast especially because you didn't have any vitality. Most impressive.</P> <P> </P>

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

While an armorer might have fewer recipies now, without the cross-class recipies, the addition of up to 41 more armor recipies per tier, spread out in levels instead of clumped at x0, will probably give more discovery xp in the long run. I don't have a plate tank, so I haven't been able to check out the new tank plate armors. I can see that the priest-armors (Plate and Devout) do sell. Chain armors have, arguably, better stats now than before. They just have lower mitigation. And with four suits to make from, there's something for everybody.At first I also thought the cross-class recipies helped break monotony while grinding, but they also meant that it was absolutely horrible to make anything from earlier tiers where you don't get XP, because all that extra work was really for nothing. And even if it wasn't gray, it's not that level x0 recipies give that much xp anyway. It's not something I would like to do the main grinding on, even if I could avoid using roots./RS - Armorer 62 and never did a tradeskill writ.

[Madmoon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not whether this class or that class uses more roots or less... root consumption is way out of line.  By any metric you want to use.. number of roots required to get through a Tier, number of times you are required to harvest, quantity of roots to move through a crafting level, availability of roots on the broker, price of roots on the broker... macro or micro, the roots requirement is w-a-a-a-a-y out of whack.  Anyone who feels otherwise, please, let us know - in detail - where you get your roots, so we can all bask in your brilliance, worship you as you deserve, and join you in the harmony of root surplus.  Until then, the machine's broke, and no amount of quarters is going to fix it.

[ximo]

I agree to some extent that roots might have been seen as quick fix, but its the Raw Meat as the main ingredient in some provisioner drinks that worries me! hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by ximo on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 PM</span>

[Oogiboogifroo]

<DIV>Someone has to tell me the secret to harvesting roots in T6, I can go out harvesting for 2 hours and get 200 sandalwood, 200 indium, 200 beryllium and in that same time on average get 50 roots. Is there some secret place in Sinking Sands or Pillar of Flames that I am missing?</DIV>

[Rast]

I normally harvest just off of the docks there.  There are nodes on each side, though the one side you will have to fight to get them (45 to 46^ mobs).  But I tend to get more food and wood than roots.

[HazlenutElf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madmoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not whether this class or that class uses more roots or less... root consumption is way out of line.  By any metric you want to use.. number of roots required to get through a Tier, number of times you are required to harvest, quantity of roots to move through a crafting level, availability of roots on the broker, price of roots on the broker... macro or micro, the roots requirement is w-a-a-a-a-y out of whack.  Anyone who feels otherwise, please, let us know - in detail - where you get your roots, so we can all bask in your brilliance, worship you as you deserve, and join you in the harmony of root surplus.  Until then, the machine's broke, and no amount of quarters is going to fix it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed!  There a multiple threads on this and on the overuse of ore issue, would be nice to get some kind of official respons on if this is getting looked into, or if they want it this way for some reason.<BR>

[grymmstone]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aljola wrote:<BR> <P>Let me support the usage of roots in food.  Consider ginger, onions, and the various other flavorful roots used in cooking in real life.  Just because a raw in your inventory says roots, it doesn't mean that it is woody and useless.  Roots have a wonderful flavor in food and, as an added bonus, contain oils, resins, and fibers that can be used in multiple crafts!  We should rejoice rather than complain.</P> <P>What a joy there is in cooking!!!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay, Fine fine roots for flavor, but (gulp) it takes more roots than any other raw to get through a tier as a provisioner. (WAY MORE) and yeah I will give in on them being easy to gather, well at least until I started my heavy tier 5 harvesting, root nodes are being cherry picked by the bushel. So I harvest all shrubs in a region get a root node to pop only to lose the footrace for it, to some guy on a (ferrari) carpet. :o Oh well, cie la vie.

[Magic]

<P>Ohhh!  I now understand what you meant.  Dang!  That's a bummer!</P> <P>In the lower tiers, where I am now, the root nodes are uncontested so I haven't experienced your problem.</P> <P>Maybe you'll get lucky and find roots for your tier on the broker for a fair price.</P> <P>I wonder if we can get more nodes scattered in the zones?  Remember the starter island?  The nodes there were always of the same types.  You could hang out in the mining area, for example, and be sure to see only mining nodes spawn there.  If they could do something like that every zone, I wonder if that would help the problem that you're having?</P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>II leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Was that from lvl 1? Because that's darned impressive and fast especially because you didn't have any vitality. Most impressive.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No that was the sage going from level 38 to 39 and the armorer from 34 to 35 -- gives you an idea how much you get penalized if you don't have a lot of new recipes each level. Not many new recipes = grind!!<BR>

[neofit]

There is another problem that adds to the T6 roots rarity, haven't seen it mentioned here. Up to to T5 included, bushes have a chance of spawning a root replacement harvest, like wormwood or corn for T5. During all of my levelling through T5 I never had to use a single T5 ashen root with my provisioner. Now this 'root replacement' harvests disappear in T6. My provisioner is using all the roots I manage to harvest. My carpenter is almost at T6, I have a whole box of sandalwood ready for him, half a box of Indium, but not a single available succulent root. So, between my two crafters, I may have used the T6 equivalent of wormwood for a full T6 for my provisioner if it were available and then use a full T6 worth of succulent roots with my carpenter. Instead I am using twice a T6 worth of roots, effectively removing succulent roots for a whole T6 from other people. Not to mention the extra boring time it will take me to harvest one single resource. I did plan, at one time, these two crafters so that they don't use each other's harvests, and so I can supply them both within the same harvesting session. Worked OK 'till T6.<div></div>

[Lakaah]

I agree with the others saying that the roots are a big problem. Tier 3 roots are about 12 silver and up on my server at the broker, which is way too much to spend for a new player like myself whose tradeskill is about equal to his adventure level. I see people on horseback and flying carpets zooming around the zone collecting nothing but roots and maybe ores. This, of course, winds up leaving the person who is trying to harvest for his own use, out of luck, as the landscape is left littered with many shrubs, and some wood and dens. Very rarely can I find roots without first clearing an area completely and letting the nodes respawn. On a side note, I think it would be a good change to put some sort of valuable rare on the shrubbery nodes. People ignore these nodes completely, and as a result, they dominate the landscape. <div></div>

[Kine]

I dont know what the root harvesting is like in lower tiers since I havent harvested below T7 in a long while, but in T7, roots are plentiful. There are several spots with high concentrations of roots that only repop as roots. Even with a couple other people harvesting in the same area I can get hundreds of roots in an hour. So I hope they fix lower tiers for any of you having problems, but know that it is much better T7.<div></div>

[Magic]

<P>In one of the lower tiers, the bushes, roots, and trees can drop a glowing flower.  I hope that this continues into the higher tiers.  </P> <P>If there are areas that spawn mostly roots, I'd like to know where they for each tier.  But that might be a trade secret.  :smileywink:</P>

[lilmohi]

<DIV>I think it is pretty clear that roots are way over used in recipes, and soft metals are way under used across the board.  Even as a jeweler i still blow through roots faster than soft metals.  I don't think they need to make sweeping changes but armorers could from a roleplay perspective use soft metal for gilding.  Weaponsmiths could use gems for pomels etc.  Even tailors could use a few glittery items.  If you across the board for just those three classes you replaced one of the root requirements with a soft metal/gem requirement in the recipe, you would make a significant change on the demand for these products.  That might drive the price of soft metals up to a whopping 10cp and might even drop the price of roots by a third.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw i think they should make it so the bushes have a chance of dropping a random rare from one of the other nodes.  That way people will have a reason to clear them out and will let other nodes spawn more.</DIV>

[Wrapye]

I just finished leveling a tailor from level 42 shortly after LU24 hit to level 70 a couple days ago.T6 was virtual root hell, needing so many to create items.  T6 cloth armor uses 8-10 roots per recipe.T7 cloth robes and the new dresses/suits use 11 roots each, in addition to a pelt and a wood.  Roots are easier to get in T7 than T6, but pelts are often highly contested given all the classes that use them.  T7 leather armor is something like 6 pelts and 5 roots.For T6 I would run around PoF and harvest with my 70 coercer, as everything was grey to me and far fewer people were competing for the harvests.  In SS I had started harvesting bushes just to clear them for other nodes to spawn.  My provisioner has lots of artichokes on hand to make into... well, some rather unappetizing items.  Those Maj Dul residents really like dirt (loam) in their drinks...<div></div>

[neofit]

<div><blockquote><hr>sacremon wrote:Those Maj Dul residents really like dirt (loam) in their drinks...<div></div><hr></blockquote>I wish it were loam, everyone has a few reserves of this stuff. IMHO too many drinks use roots, as it is right now I have a whole level of drinks/foods that all use roots. They might replace the root by a loam for instance, or, as I said in an earlier post, make T6 bushes spawn a replacement for the root as Wormwood and Corn were in T5. This would all reduce requirements on roots.And yes, as you rightly say, the demand on soft metals is low. My carpenter had a few recipes that used them a couple of tiers ago IIRC, since then - nothing, only the regular wood/metal/roots in the same proportion. A few non-root recipes each level would reduce the level. I find it hard to believe that a table uses for instance 3 wood/2 metal/2 roots, and then a painting uses 2 wood/2 metal/3 roots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sometimes I hate the guy who invented the copy/paste feature <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>