The Bards List: Bugs and Issues.

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>    Dont you think it is time Bards got some lovin SoE?If a dev looks at this, below my fellow bards and i have listed some issues with certian CA's and buffs.  Please let us know what you think.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class="date_text">07-12-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:16 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

[Killerbee3000]

<P>i want it, i want it, i want it, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was only dream, lol after almost 2 years of constant nerfs for bards i dont really expect them to change their mind now.</P> <P>but anyway, bring on instruments for bards, our runspeed buff should stack with mounts, we need more dps, we need more diversity in our buffs.</P>

[TalanRM]

IMHO I don't actually think that bards are in that bad a place. Instruments are long overdue and would make a nice and fun addition and Dirges and Troubs each have a couple of buffs that are so weak (50+) that no-one uses them. Beyond that it is really just a few bugs (stealth breaking upon group procs, Zander's allegedly increasing rather than decreasing mobs resistance 50+ etc) that need fixing. So long as EoF introduces a few diverse abilities to keep the class fun - and to make up for the comparative reduction in DPS each tier - I think we will be OK.

[Pik'ee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Killerbee3000 wrote:<div></div><p>our runspeed buff should stack with mounts, we need more dps, we need more diversity in our buffs.</p><hr></blockquote>Runspeed stacking with mounts? Absolutely not - if you're on a mount, you're not running. However an actual upgrade to the lv 41 runspeed buff would be nice. With the AA line and jboots, we still run faster than any mount out there.Our dps is pretty low admittedly, can't argue that.Diversity in buffs? We have diversity. What we don't have is many useful buffs. Dove Song? Never used. RoF? Words don't begin to describe how useless that is. Balletic avoidance? Vaguely useful if soloing, although the haste song is probably better for this. Dirge +parry is so much better than this song. I still keep putting up Aria, although it seems to not do very much any more. Health regen? Vaguely useful when solo. Mana song, flower song, str/sta song all pretty useful.But yes, improvements would be nice, but I don't think we're unplayable or useless.<p>Message Edited by Pik'ee on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 PM</span>

[Kyrsten]

<DIV>I'm actually pretty happy overall with my dirge.</DIV>

[Egeis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>   Dont you think it is time Bards got some lovin SoE?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please Leave us alone, ive already been through enough SoE revamps.  Im Survivor from NGE on SWG. Dirges are fine, my only complant are that the Masters on the market are way to high in price since very few drop.  I can afford a 20 plat Master I.  My only dirge change would be to increase drop rates of Dirge adepts and take a look at the master drop rates.</P> <P>Other than that, <STRONG>PLEASE STOP NERFING US!!!!</STRONG></P> <P>The only patch notes ive seen for the last few months about the dirges are nerfs, please stop.  Thank you so much Assassins for the wonderful Cheap shot nerf.  Now I cant get behind the target fast enough to use my Backstap.  Thank you so much.</P>

[Egeis]

<DIV>Another bug for the list reading above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beserker - Beserk ablities that buff DPS for the group over writes the dirges DPS buff.  This is bad since my DPS buffs are higher.</DIV>

[thorvang]

there's not much diversity in the troub class. str/sta + deaggro + mana, these buffs are nearly always up. then there's haste, self int buff and aria, the proc buff. ok, and two buffs for some resistances, but those are rarely needed.so the "great diversity" is to decide, whether to throw in haste or buff yourself some int. woohoo.those "utility" buffs like health regen, avoidance, +skill, reflect etc. sound great and neat, but due to the game mechanics some of them are completely useless and others very questionable.to make them useful and more diverse they could be changed as this:hp regen - direct healavoidance - raise the avoidance cap by some %+skill - raise the skill cap by some pointsreflect - direct buff that absorps the next melee hitthe last thing would be nice cause the troub has something to do while fighting other than inflicting some damage. the troub has just one single target buff (recast reduction) thus THE buffing class, the support class, has an extremely passive role. that's boring.<p>Message Edited by thorvang on <span class=date_text>07-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 AM</span>

[andersonim]

The one thinh i would like see done to my dirge as of now, is to give us our self Int/Agi buff no conc. its like other scout other classes get self buffs the require no conc. why cant we?

[Lordviperscorpian]

To the top!<div></div>

[Egeis]

<blockquote><hr>andersonim wrote:The one thinh i would like see done to my dirge as of now, is to give us our self Int/Agi buff no conc. its like other scout other classes get self buffs the require no conc. why cant we?<hr></blockquote>You have a good point. Why do other scout classes get this and not us?

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Egeis wrote:<blockquote><hr>andersonim wrote:<div></div>The one thinh i would like see done to my dirge as of now, is to give us our self Int/Agi buff no conc. its like other scout other classes get self buffs the require no conc. why cant we?<hr></blockquote>You have a good point. Why do other scout classes get this and not us?<hr></blockquote>Because SoE let a fool design the bard class.  Alot of our buffs need s serious overhaul, Agil/str buff....never use it, not worth the Consentration cost in most cases as people usaully have htis maxed.Tombs aka proc buff...as of LU13 definatly not worth the Conc cost for a 12% proc thats damage is laughable.PR/DR buff, Situational at best, also needs the conc cost removed.Self buff, if anything should have its cost removed. They need to do some serious work to bards.</div>

[Reptilianb]

<P>From what i've seen Dirges are fine as they are,</P> <P> </P> <P>it is Troubs that need fixing, GIVE US CC, what we have no shouldn't even be called CC</P>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Reptilianboy wrote:<BR> <P>From what i've seen Dirges are fine as they are,</P> <P> </P> <P>it is Troubs that need fixing, GIVE US CC, what we have no shouldn't even be called CC</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would agree with that.  Our Troub brothers are DEFINATLY in need of a little love.<BR>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Reptilianboy wrote:<div></div> <p>From what i've seen Dirges are fine as they are,</p> <p>it is Troubs that need fixing, GIVE US CC, what we have no shouldn't even be called CC</p><hr></blockquote>We have the same problems you guys do...Concentration costs on some buffs making them useless.Improper scaling on Debuffs and buffs that deal with %.Being able to cast some spells on the run while others you cannot...this includes AA's as well.Horrible AA choices such as Harmonizing shot and Alegro.  Basically 2 abilities that suck up 4 AA points each just so i can get DkTM.Dirges are in need of lovin just as much as troubs are.  Now lets work togather to get this stuff fixed.</div>

[Jal]

Having played both sides of the bard fence i can definitely say Troubs need more love but dirges could definitely use tweaks themselves.

[Raveller]

Merge Troubs and Dirges into one non-gimped Bard class.

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Raveller wrote:Merge Troubs and Dirges into one non-gimped Bard class.<hr></blockquote>Not the answer, fix both to be better.

[Raveller]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raveller wrote:<BR> Merge Troubs and Dirges into one non-gimped Bard class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Not the answer, fix both to be better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That would fix both to be better. As it is, they're both gimped and will continue to be gimped as long as this single class is split in two due to raiding dev mentalities.

[Trie]

<div></div> Agree 100% needs a revamp or something. Im gonna go out on a limb for a few of these but just suggestions: Im a 70 troub btw and I have almost all masters 55-70.  1) Increase our DPS by a solid 10% - 15% more, or enough so that we can make parsers in raid guilds. 2) Useful buffs, Dirges have more i feel than troubs as it stands but our buffs just arent so good compared to other class buffs. Examples quirons the health regen does oh say 70ish i forgot, well make it regen like 200/tick or something useful.(And keep in mind zerkers can do 90 something a tick they arent pure buff classes) Thats not game breaking when you think about it, Bards already are weak soloers and 200 health regen on group isnt over balanced. Dove song to 30 something increase, group haste or dps song to 35%, run speed to 45%, balletic avoidance to 30 defense. Less diversity for once due to dirges have alot of good stuff for melee and troubs just for casters. This is too restticting and I am sometimes(often) useless in a group with no casters. Let our buffs songs buff more than str/sta, or str/agi for each class. 3)Remove stonesong and Requiem and combine them into a multiclass song both get, Or oh i dunno just remove requiem and let both have stoneskin proc cause its absolutly worthless, but SS is still useful at 70. Change it to song of deflection or something. 4) Charm and mez, meh i can live without but maybe add a group aoe stun or something that lasts like 6 seconds or so that stuns everything even epic, 3 min recast 5) Take away alot of the conc slot restrictions. Let us have like 8 buffs up at once crap they so weak now wont make any difference if we have 1 or 10 up. 6) Add instruments we can use in charm slots, that provide good bonuses for our diff songs. 7) Perhaps beef up our debuffs only good ones are demorlizing profession and our class snare spells which at master debuffs either mental or poison/disease by 2000. Stat debuffs like debuffing str and wis are useless unless increased to something higher than what they do currently.  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Give us something unique like absoribing a mobs aoe once every 10 mins and it turns into mana shoot im just making stuff up now. 

[Lordviperscorpian]

Im a level 54 dirge. I still use the level 30 master 1 version of Daro's.  Not even the master 2 choice at level 44 was good enough for me to stop using the level 30 version.  I also used the level 12 DPS master 2 until 44 when i was able to Master 2 it agian.  It went from 16% to 24%.  All the other upgrades inbetween were just a waste of a spell upgrade.  Thats just stupid.  Who ever made the Dirge/troub spells did NOT put alot of thought into them.  Some of complete trash.  A fix id like to see is to combine the Proc spells we get into one of our other buffs...ex:Dirge Tomb line + Dirge combat buff line = Buff that raises Combat skills + 12% chance to proc.  Now id use that!  As they stand now...nope.  Will never use them.  Will a developer ever comment on either of the bard classes? No, probably becuase they dont want to admit they exist.<div></div>

[Kreat]

Aye, Troubs and Dirges aren't anywhere near where they should be. I raid 6 days a week, t7 content, and quite frankly, I find myself rather bored at times, and useless for anything except my hate decreaser.Our dps is sub-par, only way I get past 5-600 is if I actually get the benefit of other classes procs since ours are useless, I'm fine with playing a utility class and having sub-par dps compared to other classes, but our buffs atm just don't make up for it, anything we do, another class can do better. Hell, even some priest classes do more damage then us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />All I want is something unique (and casting Jester's Cap on someone every 30 secs isn't), and something useful that actually makes me feel needed and useful, only people that appreciate me is my dps group.Even questing and doing things, it's a pain to get invites as a bard, whereas my 64 brig gets invites tossed after it constantly ....

[Lordviperscorpian]

They need to change our AA's around and give us proc's that effect the group.  I recently saw the new bard only dagger that heals your group everytime it procs.  I say it's more things like the dagger proc that bards need.  Procs that will help the group out by increases a stat or dmg for a short period of time.  You know your AA's are bad when the very first point you spend is a complete waste.<div></div>

[Reptilianb]

<P>Trieze,,,</P> <P> </P> <P>The number 4 (do without charm and mez)...</P> <P>Thats the reason i made a troub for those spells.</P> <P>if they aren't going to be fixed, i'd rather have FEAR and REZ instead.</P>

[Chefren]

Fear is the ugly fat [Removed for Content] neighbours dogs rotten buried bone of real CC in this game. Feared mobs come back with friends. So much for helping the group..<div></div>

[Jal]

On my necro i use fear alot for CC.On my Dirge its seems highly ineffective.

[Gall]

An easy fix for our dps would be to give us posions, They don't proc alot now, and half our attacks are spells which wouldn't triger it, but it could be a nice bump for some fights, less for others. It wouldn't change what we could solo because you can't count on the proc, so it would be a chance to solo higher at best. This seems to fit in best with something SOE would give us, though it's still unlikely.

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallor wrote:<BR> An easy fix for our dps would be to give us posions, They don't proc alot now, and half our attacks are spells which wouldn't triger it, but it could be a nice bump for some fights, less for others. It wouldn't change what we could solo because you can't count on the proc, so it would be a chance to solo higher at best. This seems to fit in best with something SOE would give us, though it's still unlikely.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Man my poison concoction from the AA line procs every single fight.  In epic fights I can parse in the 900's.  Were not meant to be tier one DPS nore should we be anywhere near it.  Allowing store bought posions to be used by dirges wont solve anything.  It will simply turned us into a watered down predator and have the assasins and Rangers calling for more utility because we can use poisons now.

[Dizank]

<P>Requiem needs to be changed to flat out have a 11% chance to absorb a spell, I also agree that our self only buff shouldnt take a conc. </P> <P>I would really like to see instruments for our charm slot to allow us to raise the stats on different buffs. And I also tend to agree my usual raid set up is this - self buff, mana regen, str/sta, deagro and then either haste/proc song depending if im in melee or caster group.</P> <P>The other buffs are under powered when given only 5 conc slots to choose from</P>

[Shadowinajar]

<P>ay its sad some of our songs are so useless they cant find their way to the hotbar.</P> <P> </P> <P>Was it ment this way so it is easier to handle the conc sots?:smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>No realy.. fear wouldnt be so bad if it  haddnt a 2 sec cast time, at this time</P> <P>the add i try to fear of got hit by any of my group members in the heat of th battle:womansad:</P> <P> ya ya i know should make a macro out of it :womanvery-happy:</P>

[Mulilla]

<P>Although i think the bard classes need a bit of lovin i am completely against a total revamp.  We have been through 2 revamps and i dind't like what we have became, so i would prefer fine tuning than a huge revamp.</P> <P>As a troub I learned to live with the new CC spells, charm time is minimal, but ocasional efective.  Anyway it shouldnt be game breaking if its duration increased a couple of secs (be reallistic, i would like its duration increased in one minute, but that is not gonna happen).  We cant mezz multiple mobs now, but it works the same, so i just adjusted my gameplay,  now i mez 2 instead 4.</P> <P>Without being game breaking, i really think some of the buffs and debufs need a little tweaking, increasing its numbers just a bit.  I dont want to be overpowered, but i want to be usefull to the group.  Some of them will still be a little useless, but every class has its own crappy buffs/debufs.</P> <P>I can live with low DPS, but i think the utility has to be acording to that:  Low DPS-High Utility or viceversa (i prefer utility over DPS, thats why i choosed a troub)</P> <P>Note for the devs:  I really liked the approach you made with Lore's Euphuistic Romp dealing dmg while the mob use his power, but again, i think the numbers must be tweaked.  Even if the dmg was 100% of power cost it wouldnt be game breaking... what is the most power consumed by a spell? little, so little, less than the damage that a lvl 20 spell deals.  ATM it deals the astounding number of 25-30 dmg... multiply that by 100 and it still wouldn't be game breaking... im not asking for 100, just 10.</P> <P> </P> <P>Excuse fellow dirges to hijiack this bard thread with troub issues, i know you too need some love, but i don't know your class as much as i know mine (although i will, leveling a dirge alt ATM <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> yep, i am a bit sadistic)</P> <P> </P> <P>PS: No, i will never trade my charm and mezz (even at their current status) for rezz and fear.  I almost quitted when i read LU24 CC changes, if i ever loose the little bit of CC we have left, there will be no reason to keep playing</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Well a total revamp isnt what were after.  We just want our utility to be up to par with the rest of the game.  Every LU they come out with toub/dirge utility becomes less and less effective.  Our buffs need tweaking thats all im after, i could really care less about our poor DPS at this point.  I just want our buffs looked at...because quite franklly some of them are completely useless.Id also like to get the scaling fixed on buffs/debuffs that deal with %.  Its stupid that Master 1 level 30 daro's is better than level 44 master 2 version of daro's.  I think the increase % on the debuff is 3 whole %.  The mana cost per tick goes up MORE than the % does.  Thats just sad.  Thats how much thought the devs put into our spells.  Its rediculous.<div></div>

[Kreat]

<blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:Well a total revamp isnt what were after.  We just want our utility to be up to par with the rest of the game.  Every LU they come out with toub/dirge utility becomes less and less effective.  Our buffs need tweaking thats all im after, i could really care less about our poor DPS at this point.  I just want our buffs looked at...because quite franklly some of them are completely useless.Id also like to get the scaling fixed on buffs/debuffs that deal with %.  Its stupid that Master 1 level 30 daro's is better than level 44 master 2 version of daro's.  I think the increase % on the debuff is 3 whole %.  The mana cost per tick goes up MORE than the % does.  Thats just sad.  Thats how much thought the devs put into our spells.  Its rediculous.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Agreed!

[Lordviperscorpian]

Bump for justice!<div></div>

[K3mik4l]

Percussion of Stone and skills with damage on termination still break stealth! I know PoS is a good spell and all... still gets on my nerves for a surprising amount <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Krooner]

<DIV>With the next level increase not till next year, and an expansion just months away, the question is what will bards need to stay effective for the next 6 months.</DIV> <DIV>Some have suggested taking the conc slot off our personal buff.  That might be a start.</DIV> <DIV>I would really like to see our Crypt line turned into a group damage shield that procs on AOE's as well.  The damage would add up quick when a mob boss or heroic AOE's or Barrages a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shadowinajar]

<P>Ay pos!</P> <P> </P> <P>how anoying in silent city  , if you try to scout and your tank far behind you decides to fight something while youre next to</P> <P>the 1000*channel cleaners*</P> <P>sneaking up to do your stealth attacks to just pop up with you dagger between thee teeth:womansad:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>i would like to see tombs do either proc on all attacks or to have an higher damage</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>PLEASE do something about it</P><p>Message Edited by Shadowinajar on <span class=date_text>07-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shadowinajar wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Ay pos!</p> <p>how anoying in silent city  , if you try to scout and your tank far behind you decides to fight something while youre next to</p> <p>the 1000*channel cleaners*</p> <p>sneaking up to do your stealth attacks to just pop up with you dagger between thee teeth:womansad:</p> <p>i would like to see tombs do either proc on all attacks or to have an higher damage</p> <p>PLEASE do something about it</p><p>Message Edited by Shadowinajar on <span class="date_text">07-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:59 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If they removed the Concentration cost on tombs id take it the way it is now.  If they keep the cost then i want higher dmg and higher proc rate.  And FIX POS BREAKING STEALTH.  Its so hard to get off Scream of death now.</div>

[Cyanbane]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:Id also like to get the scaling fixed on buffs/debuffs that deal with %.  Its stupid that Master 1 level 30 daro's is better than level 44 master 2 version of daro's.  I think the increase % on the debuff is 3 whole %.  The mana cost per tick goes up MORE than the % does.  Thats just sad.  Thats how much thought the devs put into our spells.  Its rediculous.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree on this.  I just hit 42 and have not used any of my newer spells except for Selo's because they are all nowhere near the stats my older ones.  I also think the self buff should lose the concentration slot.</div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Nothing in LU25 for for us.  Looks like the enchanters got lanets nerfed/fixed, what ever you want to call it.Maybe LU26 will have something for bards...then agian...probably not.<div></div>

[Tuna]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyanbane wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR><BR>Id also like to get the scaling fixed on buffs/debuffs that deal with %.  Its stupid that Master 1 level 30 daro's is better than level 44 master 2 version of daro's.  I think the increase % on the debuff is 3 whole %.  The mana cost per tick goes up MORE than the % does.  Thats just sad.  Thats how much thought the devs put into our spells.  Its rediculous.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I agree on this.  I just hit 42 and have not used any of my newer spells except for Selo's because they are all nowhere near the stats my older ones.  I also think the self buff should lose the concentration slot.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Improving how spells scale in terms of power cost is a great idea.  It is a minor change that clears up tangible inconsistencies and imho is an appropriate level of fine tuning given the issues I experience playing my Dirge.  The benefit of such a change would be better power efficiency so that I can maintain more debuffs throughout long fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only other suggestion mentioned that I like would be to make slight increases in the usefulness of 2-3 spells that are largely seen to be non-options under any circumstance, i.e. the tombs group proc, or the skill increase buff.  I wouldn't expect the increase to be so significant that it made the spells regular options... just something a little more then what they are now.  As it stands, I have to agree that bards (at least Dirges) hang their hats on a couple of powerful abilities. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sounds to me that bards in this thread percieve much larger imbalances.  I am not sure I agree with that.  Imho the devs are pretty close to achieving a genuine utility class with a plethora of meaningful options for varied situations (at least with the dirge--the class I play)--one that relies on enhancing the abilities of others to have maximum impact.  I enjoy the class now, but with a little tweaking would be a happy clam.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw I play a lvl 70 Dirge with all but 9 masters... I raid, I group, I quest... sig shows alts.</DIV>

[Reptilianb]

<DIV>I'd like to have mez at lower lvls and a longer lasting charm <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> edit::: or putt he reuse timer to 5seconds instead of FOURTY FKNG FIVE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also.. Devs... try to think about pvp... i wish i made a dirge now.. fearing off the docks and griff towers ... well,. i suppose i can charm them, make them stay, and run away, gives me about 5 seconds head start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allow us to cast all our songs while moving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us a group 5+ second invulnerability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group FD</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make us Twist songs like on EQ1, so we have to be fast and good to play.. make it harder to play a bard, but in turn if u r good u r harder <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Double the Haste our haste songs give.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give us more solo power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE mez around the bard which mezzes with each tick, but roots and stops other abilties of the bard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AoE Fear (dirge) -- Fear and Mez should be the opposite spells for troub/dirge ---- i think it would be easier to mez someone than charm someone, so why is mez lvl50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snare spells that are continuous but drain power (of the bard) and stop other abilties from being used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>bigger Power Draining spells that work</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bigger health regens</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more DOTs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and more....... Bring back the EQ1 BARD</DIV><p>Message Edited by Reptilianboy on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 PM</span>

[Jaimster]

Please please please please keep seperate the ideas for PvP and PvE bards. Not that they are necessarily going to be different, or even that what is good for one won't be good for the other, but sometimes that is the case...

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div></div>Please please please please keep seperate the ideas for PvP and PvE bards. Not that they are necessarily going to be different, or even that what is good for one won't be good for the other, but sometimes that is the case...<hr></blockquote>As stated many times before, they can change the way a spell works in pvp and leave it the way it is in PvE.  Thats not an issue.</div>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaimster wrote:<BR> Please please please please keep seperate the ideas for PvP and PvE bards. Not that they are necessarily going to be different, or even that what is good for one won't be good for the other, but sometimes that is the case...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As stated many times before, they can change the way a spell works in pvp and leave it the way it is in PvE.  Thats not an issue.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh I know - I just meant that certain functions that someone may really like in PvE might not work the same in PvP, therefore changes about them asked for that wouldn't necessarily be something PvE'rs want changed at all =)

[Despak]

<P>I wonder if dumping the self buff conc. slot and giving us Stances would do the trick. </P> <UL> <LI>Offensive - increased dps, spell damage and offensive buff power,</LI> <LI>Mid - small overall increase and defensive increase </LI> <LI>Defensive stance - increased defensive buff power, increased pos procs and so on with reduced offensive spell damage and song power.</LI></UL>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Still waiting on some developer's insight...Still waiting...<div></div>

[Calman]

Some great ideas here, now only if the dev's could help us out and put a few into game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that would be nice. Might even make my troub feel more fun and usefull in none caster groups. Wooot now that would be nice. I will even eat my hat feather and all.  But bet we see another nerf before any love. LOL <div></div>

[Drakaran]

I really like these suggestions. I'm not even sure what suggestions to make myself as I gave up playing my troub some 4 or so LUs ago. I really loved the Bard class in EQ1, even if I didnt' twist that well, I could see how the bard added a lot to a group (heck! they were about par for buffs and crowd control as were Enchie... and having one of each in a group was pretty hellatiously sweet!) The regen buffs are way too weak (as they are on the enchanter class as well). I'm really tired of trying to 2nd.. or 3rd guess the devs, so I just don't play.  Guess that's more for you guys then.<div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Drakaran wrote:I really like these suggestions. I'm not even sure what suggestions to make myself as I gave up playing my troub some 4 or so LUs ago. I really loved the Bard class in EQ1, even if I didnt' twist that well, I could see how the bard added a lot to a group (heck! they were about par for buffs and crowd control as were Enchie... and having one of each in a group was pretty hellatiously sweet!) The regen buffs are way too weak (as they are on the enchanter class as well). I'm really tired of trying to 2nd.. or 3rd guess the devs, so I just don't play.  Guess that's more for you guys then.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yea twisting in EQ1 was fun.  I really wish they would have kept it the same.  The bard in EQ2 feels like it's missing something.  Spliting the class was the first real mistake imo.  Since they did it, its time to give us some real class defining stuff.  Bump in hopes of a dev reading this.</div>

[Shadowinajar]

<DIV>no bumps please:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i think long..i dont realy whish they make us bards any better, that would mean</DIV> <DIV>people would love to have a troub in a group instead of just filling the group up with us cause nothing else is available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 2. people would start playing more bards..hate to be in the majority :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV>i want to stay a *seldom seen* </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*i wanna be the minoríty*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all spells on the run would be a lovely thing...as we run fast and much..in pvp/pve and inmy eyes not</DIV> <DIV>overpowering us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Shadowinajar on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 PM</span>

[HeadImp]

<P>My only addition thought on this, having played EQ1 as a bard main and now playing an EQ2 dirge, is maybe some of the buffs, instead of being 'always on' be increased and have short duration so we actually get to twist them again.  In EQ1, it took talent, dedication, and a whole lot of paying attention to play a bard; here in EQ2 you can have a dirge or troub as a 'bot and still get most of the effects, and any 9 year old with an account can be just as good a dirge in battle as they could be with a guardian, or a cleric, for that matter.</P> <P>The things I miss most about EQ1 bards are the instruments, twisting songs, and my AoE songs (both beneficial and hostile).  Oh, and lullaby.  Oh, yeah, Selo's Song of Travel (runspeed increase / group invis / levitation).  Most of the good stuff about EQ1 bards never made it here, and if they ever got the EQ2 quest journal in EQ1 (and the way quests work here) I'd be back there in a heartbeat.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Which brings up another point...Where are the instruments?<div></div>

[Mirander_1]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:Which brings up another point...Where are the instruments?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I recall the devs making mention of instruments before, but there hasn't been any further news in quite some time</div>

[firza]

<P>Twisting was fun, and yes...being a bard, or a good bard in EQ1 was not for everyone, and asked for constant concentration.</P> <P>I looked for the diversity to EQ2 bards and rolled a dirge, and loved it more then my EQ1 bard.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thank you devs for having the insight not to make a new armtwisting toon, but a very playable toon that even if played correctly needs constant attention. Any toon can be bottet. Only a few people know how to get the max from their characters.</P> <P>Instruments I could love. Course, only with better macroing, or better switching of gear. I however think that we will never see them in EQ2 as they used to be.</P> <P>1 Songs scale differently, you can't just add % to them.</P> <P>2 AOE increase effect would be higher then in EQ1 due to system of scaliing songs from app to master. To overpowered probably.</P> <P>So if we ever see instruments I expect them to be a cloack item (have your mini piano), a glove item (your guitar in your hand) or any other same idea.</P> <P>Don't get your hopes up on instruments, they will be different then in EQ1.</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>firza wrote:<div></div> <p>Twisting was fun, and yes...being a bard, or a good bard in EQ1 was not for everyone, and asked for constant concentration.</p> <p>I looked for the diversity to EQ2 bards and rolled a dirge, and loved it more then my EQ1 bard.</p> <p>Thank you devs for having the insight not to make a new armtwisting toon, but a very playable toon that even if played correctly needs constant attention. Any toon can be bottet. Only a few people know how to get the max from their characters.</p> <p>Instruments I could love. Course, only with better macroing, or better switching of gear. I however think that we will never see them in EQ2 as they used to be.</p> <p>1 Songs scale differently, you can't just add % to them.</p> <p>2 AOE increase effect would be higher then in EQ1 due to system of scaliing songs from app to master. To overpowered probably.</p> <p>So if we ever see instruments I expect them to be a cloack item (have your mini piano), a glove item (your guitar in your hand) or any other same idea.</p> <p>Don't get your hopes up on instruments, they will be different then in EQ1.</p><hr></blockquote>At this point id be happy if a developer even mentioned the bard classes, let alone instruments.  </div>

[K3mik4l]

<blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:Which brings up another point...Where are the instruments?<hr></blockquote>There's a really cool animation when you blow the dogwhistle while betraying from Qeynos to Freeport. Think it had a sound to it aswell. That would be an awesome start <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Although, instead of dogwhistle we should have a flute or something <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One can only hope <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Reptilianb]

<P>Although twisting songs again would be cool, giving them a shorter duration for buffs so we need to keep them up... please don't just make us twist songs without making the buffs twice as powerful. -- i just had a preminition of them making us twist songs with the buffs we have got, so basically making us even worse lol.</P> <P>I'm not to bothered about instruments myself.. but from a Troub point of view, a flute allowing us to charm for a long long time but not have melee abiltiies would work for me. Or.. not actualling having a flute (in inventory) but just disbale melee abiltiies and have a flute visible instead of weapons.. like when u buffs and it shows lute or drums. Same with mez. But allow us to cast our songs too.</P> <P>I think putting instruments into the game might be to much work for them (SOE) if they haven't already started working on it.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Krooner]

<DIV>I dont think it would make us overpowered to have an instrument that icreased AOE range for the type of instrument used to cast the buff or art.</DIV> <DIV>You could keep it low like 5m.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would give us a little more range for our nukes and our important buffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just brainstorming here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div> <div>I dont think it would make us overpowered to have an instrument that icreased AOE range for the type of instrument used to cast the buff or art.</div> <div>You could keep it low like 5m.</div> <div> </div> <div>This would give us a little more range for our nukes and our important buffs.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Just brainstorming here.</div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">07-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think we need more procs that are group based.  Like a proc that adds DPS, or heals a little bit.  Just throwing out some ideas.  But we definatly need more than we we have.Tombs, and the STR/AGIL buff need a serious revamp.  Please fix.</div>

[Tandellia]

<DIV>There are a lot of changes that can be implemented. Being the only bard class currently in my guild Silver Faith, its hard to do both aspects of the troub/dirge combo when I dont have a dirge to pair off with. It's great being put into a caster group when I can use Aria at all times and use Precision of the Maestro in those long fights with Hate reducer activated at all times. My casters go crazy with extra damage and they really love it. Just wish precision lasted longer than 20seconds and didnt have a 1.5min recast but we make due. Also Jesters Cap the dps and tanks love for the extra recast decrease for the 30seconds, can really help the main tank in a big raid. The problem I had at first was that I was placed in group one with the main tank. Dont get me wrong, I love being in group one but I wasnt as beneficial in the raid as I am now with my caster team. If I had a dirge I would definitely want to be in group one to help out the tank. </DIV> <DIV>I see all the arguments everyones bringing out, I agree with many of them. I would love some of our songs to be tweaked to be better. And for those who referred to Requiem of Reflection, I use that song all the time, solo, group, and raid. It DOES work against epics casting spells, used it against the dragon for MOA4 when I was in group one and my main tank kept getting it procced and no dot on him <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So dont knock it completely, it does work to your advantage if you are lucky. </DIV> <DIV>I am rather upset with the fact that master spells from 60-70 are way overpriced, hard to be a raiding bard when you cant even afford your new spells (even spongy loams are over 2p a piece) Soloing I can not always make that kinda money, I mean 20p for my longrange damage song? Geez! Must be nice to be rich, because I sure am not lol. Maybe someday we'll get some of our abilities back to where we think they should be. I feel bad for those who are "buff bots" because it shouldn't be that way, you should be able to enjoy your toon at all times. I enjoy my troubador a lot, but I still wish I could be more useful in raids, trust me seeing the DPS parser and never seeing my name is a little disappointing, but when I see my casters on that list, I feel a little better knowing I helped.</DIV>

[Canlocu]

<DIV>"My only addition thought on this, having played EQ1 as a bard main and now playing an EQ2 dirge, is maybe some of the buffs, instead of being 'always on' be increased and have short duration so we actually get to twist them again." - Headimp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you nuts, as a dirge I got alot going on in raids, Having to twist songs again would make so down time I dont have. I like things as they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would like to see some Items like drums, flutes, etc. With con slots so we can have more songs playing. Cause right now I am MT dirge, and have to drop all my self buffs for MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>70 Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Unrest Vagabonds</DIV><p>Message Edited by Canlocu on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<DIV>Twisting songs = Carpotunnel syndrome.  :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div></div>At this point id really like them to just fix the scaling on our buffs....still no developer insight.  What i want to know is who the hell created the bard spells?  I mean i find it hard to believe someone sat down and made this much of a blunder.  FIX BARDS BUFF SCALING SOE. and while your at it make CoB castable on the run.  We are bards for god sake.And im still using my level 30 master 1 daro's debuff at 59.  How stupid that a level 30 master 1 still beats a level 58 adept 3.  TERRIBLE SCALING FTW.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lordviperscorpian on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

[djwoolf]

We might bve able to get some tweaks if we complain loudly enough.  A while back there was a rendering problem with the 6800 series GeForce cards. The game was playable but you had to  jerry-rig your graphics settings each time before you played, a real pain to be sure.  The forum regarding this issue grew long, and the issue wasn't addressed by any SOE rep.  Eventually i started posting "Fix this bug" in LARGE <font color="#ff0000">RED </font>letters everytime I posted, others started doing the same as well.  Sometimes I'd just post "fix this bug"  and nothing else, others did as well.  Eventually the board was littered with replies of the same note, and SOE did finally fix it.  It just took a while.  What i propose is the same:  Every post put <font color="#ff0000"><font size="7">"Give Bards some LOVE!"</font></font> . Maybe it will work this time too.  THe theme of the thread is intended to galvanize our discontent for our class's treatment.  Let work as a team to get it done.  That said here are my tweaks. 1. Instruments Perhaps some instruments that have stats like our self buffs that we can equip in the charm, ranged, or 2nd Hand slot.  Have the instruments scale WELL with our levels.  Then eliminate the self buff spells, thereby eliminating the need for another conc slot.  Call it something like an Enchanted Lute, a Harmonious fife, a Singing Sackbut (yes thats a real instrument), or a Venomus Viol.  It could be called a Stinking Mouth-Harp for all I care as long as it's an instrument that adds some functionlity.  Other things that would work well on instruments: damage procs, Recast timer procs, and/or DOT or HOT procs.  2. Casting in motion please. IRL I am a proffesional musician.  In that fashoin, I need to be able to sing and follow my stage directions or I am no good to the opera company.  Why then, does it make sense for a bard to not be able to play a song on the run? 3. CA and Spell scaling There has been enough discussion on this in above posts, but I wanted to cast my lot in with the rest of you.  4.  <font size="4">DPS <font size="3">There has to be some sort of trade off for the low DPS our class.  Our stuns used to be able to help us while soloing, but they are ineffective now.  To that end add some buffs/debuffs</font> <font size="3">that make us more effective in raid, large, and small groups.  Also some better life and power drains would make us valuable in these situations in this manner,  We might not put out as much DPS but we can outlast others and do as much in the long run.  Or we could buff/debff a little longer.  <font size="2">5.  Clearer definition of the Bard class by SOE What exactly are bards supposed to do?  THe manual for the game isn't valid anymore.  We are an weak utility class as a whole.  Whe are the least DPS of the scout archeytypes.  Our Stealthed attacks are mediocre,and the flanks aren't any better.  So SOE what is our purpose?  A clear role definition from you will make our roles easier to play. That about sums me up.  Before the flame lights up,  I'd like to add I am a dirge.  I play a bard because I love being a musician IRl and in Norrath.  My protests nailed on the church door are ment to be a unifying force for fellow musicians of Norrath. Maybe SOE will take note, respond, offer a solution, and <font color="#ff0000"><font size="7">GIVE OUR BARDS SOME LOVE!</font></font> </font></font><font size="1"></font></font> <div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>djwoolf wrote:We might bve able to get some tweaks if we complain loudly enough.  A while back there was a rendering problem with the 6800 series GeForce cards. The game was playable but you had to  jerry-rig your graphics settings each time before you played, a real pain to be sure.  The forum regarding this issue grew long, and the issue wasn't addressed by any SOE rep.  Eventually i started posting "Fix this bug" in LARGE <font color="#ff0000">RED </font>letters everytime I posted, others started doing the same as well.  Sometimes I'd just post "fix this bug"  and nothing else, others did as well.  Eventually the board was littered with replies of the same note, and SOE did finally fix it.  It just took a while.  What i propose is the same:  Every post put <font color="#ff0000"><font size="7">"Give Bards some LOVE!"</font></font> . Maybe it will work this time too.  THe theme of the thread is intended to galvanize our discontent for our class's treatment.  Let work as a team to get it done.  That said here are my tweaks. 1. Instruments Perhaps some instruments that have stats like our self buffs that we can equip in the charm, ranged, or 2nd Hand slot.  Have the instruments scale WELL with our levels.  Then eliminate the self buff spells, thereby eliminating the need for another conc slot.  Call it something like an Enchanted Lute, a Harmonious fife, a Singing Sackbut (yes thats a real instrument), or a Venomus Viol.  It could be called a Stinking Mouth-Harp for all I care as long as it's an instrument that adds some functionlity.  Other things that would work well on instruments: damage procs, Recast timer procs, and/or DOT or HOT procs.  2. Casting in motion please. IRL I am a proffesional musician.  In that fashoin, I need to be able to sing and follow my stage directions or I am no good to the opera company.  Why then, does it make sense for a bard to not be able to play a song on the run? 3. CA and Spell scaling There has been enough discussion on this in above posts, but I wanted to cast my lot in with the rest of you.  4.  <font size="4">DPS <font size="3">There has to be some sort of trade off for the low DPS our class.  Our stuns used to be able to help us while soloing, but they are ineffective now.  To that end add some buffs/debuffs</font> <font size="3">that make us more effective in raid, large, and small groups.  Also some better life and power drains would make us valuable in these situations in this manner,  We might not put out as much DPS but we can outlast others and do as much in the long run.  Or we could buff/debff a little longer.  <font size="2">5.  Clearer definition of the Bard class by SOE What exactly are bards supposed to do?  THe manual for the game isn't valid anymore.  We are an weak utility class as a whole.  Whe are the least DPS of the scout archeytypes.  Our Stealthed attacks are mediocre,and the flanks aren't any better.  So SOE what is our purpose?  A clear role definition from you will make our roles easier to play. That about sums me up.  Before the flame lights up,  I'd like to add I am a dirge.  I play a bard because I love being a musician IRl and in Norrath.  My protests nailed on the church door are ment to be a unifying force for fellow musicians of Norrath. Maybe SOE will take note, respond, offer a solution, and <font color="#ff0000"><font size="7">GIVE OUR BARDS SOME LOVE!</font></font> </font></font><font size="1"></font></font> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Indeed!  I think one of the main problems we have is that they tailored bard skills around the other scout classes.  EX.  They give us a stealth attack that does dmg and lowers wisdom.  Why do we need this?  I think i used this skill until level 20.  We dont need a stealth attack that lowers wisdom, and whats worse is that at 55 we no longer even have it on the hotbar for those "just in case" moments, as we have Scream of death.  Our backstab does dmg and lowers DPS.  Why?  Last i checked this didnt do much anyway.  Both are truley terrible skills that seem like fillers becuase they based our spell skills around the other scout classes.  It makes no sense to do this as bards are completly different.  These are some of the skills/buffs/debuffs i think need major improvments:1. Stealthed Attack that does DMG and lowers Wisdom.2.  Positional backstab that lowers DPS.  3. STR/AGIL buff- People usually have these maxed anyway, no need for this.  Keep it as is and remove the concentration cost, or change it.4. Tombs proc line.  Dmg to low, doesnt proc enough....good thought made terrible by nerfing how procs work.  Agian a simple fix would be to remove the concentration cost and leave as is, or change this significantly.  I have the master of this spell and ive only used it one time.  5. Boon line(+combat skills)- Another buff that just doesnt scale properly and isnt needed at later levels do to people's Offensive stances and other buffs that are significantly more powerful(the warden line).  This one definatly needs some work.  6. DPS line scaling.  Has SoE acually take the time to review the spells they make?  This spell line tells me no.  I used the level 12 master 2 DPS buff until 44 where agian i master 2'd it.  The level 12 master 2 was a woping 16% DPS.  The level 44 master 2 is 24%.  All the fillers inbtween dont even come close.  Its sad really.  Whats truley sad about this is that i will use this version even at 70 becuase the level 70 version adept 3 is only 26% DPS.  The level 56 master 1 is also 26% DPS.  WOW GREAT SCALING SOE.  7. Daros debuff line(snare/decrease attack speed)- This line is a good debuff.  When i first got this spell at level 30 i was truley amazed by it.  I was lucky enough to find a master 1 spell.  Little did i know id be using this master 1 spell even at level 59.  Master 1 at level 30 is 29% snare 21% decrease attack speed)  The next master 1 version of this spell gives a whole 2% increase to both.  The master 2 at 44 gives 3%.  Amazing scalimg ftw.  Lets see yea im going to spend 2plat+ on a master 1 spell that gives me 2% more and costs more mana to keep up.  NO THANKS.8. The -mit debuff- Great debuff, i love it.  Why cant we cast this while moving like the other 2 group debuffs? This is exactly the same type of spell type as the other 2.  Makes no sense why this one cant be cast on the run, and the others can.  9. Cocaphony of blades- Another great spell but you cant cast it while moving? One of our best buffs dumbed down becuase of a long casting time.  WERE BARDS. Casting while moving is what we do.  10. Dont even get me started on the AA's.  You got alot of work to do before we even touch base there, but just to let you know...they are pretty much terrible and lack thought.  Any AA tree that opens with a useless skill is doomed. Who cares about making my HO button refresh faster!?  Give me something useful.  I cant believe you took away giving us more parry for this useless skill.  Id rather have the parry thanks.Thats just a FEW bard issues.  </div>

[TalanRM]

<P>Whilst I agree with a number of the above points, especially regarding the lack of usefulness of Boon and Tombs surely a -32% DPS flank attack (at Adept III) is useful? If a raid mob is hitting for 2-4K autoattack surely taking 1K damage of each hit is worth it. Similarly, although not great lowering a heroic mobs autoattack by -32% is still far from useless.</P> <P>Boon and Tombs could easily be incorporated into a single spell forming a dirge group offensive stance (similarly for the Troubabor equivilents). They may then occaisonally make the list.</P> <P>Personally, I think Dirges only need a few, mainly minor or bug correction, tweaks (not played a Troub):-</P> <P>1. Being able to cast all spells on the move - as a bard distinguishing feature</P> <P>2. Boon and Tombs need radically upgrading or overhauling, I don't know a dirge that ever uses them anymore</P> <P>3. Fix our stealth breaking when out procs trigger off another group player (and keep checking this every LU as this bug constantly comes up every time spells are updated)</P> <P>4. Allow ressurection to work on people out of our group or raid, the same as a priest can. Let's encourage more social play in the game. The same for Oration of Sacrifice.</P> <P>5. Enable us to turn-off auto facing everytime we cast spells. I truly hate the fact that my avatar gets spun randomly around when pulling. It is irritating and breaks immersion.</P> <P>6. Instruments equippable by bards in charm slots as part of new EoF crafting recipes - instruments could have stats, special effects or even enable bards to play music SWG style - but it would be awesome to actually be able to use them.</P> <P>7. A number of AAs need re-looking at *cough Allegro having no difference between 1 and 8 ranks spent*, but it is really the few fixes above that seem most important to me - provided we get some fresh and funky (even if not powerful) spells to learn with EoF [summoning the spirits of the dead to fight or re-occuring noxious wards (weaker than priest versions) would be cool].</P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>TalanRM wrote:<div></div> <p>Whilst I agree with a number of the above points, especially regarding the lack of usefulness of Boon and Tombs surely a -32% DPS flank attack (at Adept III) is useful? If a raid mob is hitting for 2-4K autoattack surely taking 1K damage of each hit is worth it. Similarly, although not great lowering a heroic mobs autoattack by -32% is still far from useless.</p> <p>Boon and Tombs could easily be incorporated into a single spell forming a dirge group offensive stance (similarly for the Troubabor equivilents). They may then occaisonally make the list.</p> <p>Personally, I think Dirges only need a few, mainly minor or bug correction, tweaks (not played a Troub):-</p> <p>1. Being able to cast all spells on the move - as a bard distinguishing feature</p> <p>2. Boon and Tombs need radically upgrading or overhauling, I don't know a dirge that ever uses them anymore</p> <p>3. Fix our stealth breaking when out procs trigger off another group player (and keep checking this every LU as this bug constantly comes up every time spells are updated)</p> <p>4. Allow ressurection to work on people out of our group or raid, the same as a priest can. Let's encourage more social play in the game. The same for Oration of Sacrifice.</p> <p>5. Enable us to turn-off auto facing everytime we cast spells. I truly hate the fact that my avatar gets spun randomly around when pulling. It is irritating and breaks immersion.</p> <p>6. Instruments equippable by bards in charm slots as part of new EoF crafting recipes - instruments could have stats, special effects or even enable bards to play music SWG style - but it would be awesome to actually be able to use them.</p> <p>7. A number of AAs need re-looking at *cough Allegro having no difference between 1 and 8 ranks spent*, but it is really the few fixes above that seem most important to me - provided we get some fresh and funky (even if not powerful) spells to learn with EoF [summoning the spirits of the dead to fight or re-occuring noxious wards (weaker than priest versions) would be cool].</p><hr></blockquote>You know you can turn off auto facing in options.  I did this at level 4 when i realized what a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it was going to be.  If i remember correctly its in camera options or something like that.  </div>

[Emerix]

<DIV>Overall i think bard could need some love but certainly not too much . were ok . were usefull . too much love would make us worth nerfing again . some things what can be changed can be seen in the 'how to improve troubadors topic in the classs forum .</DIV> <DIV>Some things id like to see personally would be :</DIV> <DIV>Instruments that are usable like the new harvesting tools . id even pay 5 plat if my rebuffing and casting would go 10 % faster due to an instrument .</DIV> <DIV>Some balancing for the buffs would be nice . the defence and parry songs should buff for the same values in my oppinion . IF i use the balletic avoidance i use it to help the tank . Noone cares that defense song helps every class and parry song only half of them since its only used for fighters or scouts anyway .</DIV> <DIV>Also the precision of the maestro should interupt the mob too . dirges get interups why dont troubys get it ? . </DIV> <DIV>and again : i really dont see a reason why a dirge master nuke does 20 % more damage than the trouby equivalent . no sorry thats just not right .</DIV>

[Seiden]

Yea! and fix brigands band if thugs while you are at it! You changed it from normal to useless. you should of just nerfed it instead of making it a poo fluff... wait.. where am I?<div></div>

[smtj]

<DIV>As a pvp Troub I dont want any big changes but here are a couple things that would make a difference</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs- all need to be looked at, sad that every bard uses the same 5-6 and never uses the other 5, make them all useful or let us use a bunch without costing conc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Self Buff- This should require no conc same as all the other scouts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS- Not sure here but we need a bit more to be effective, maybe just an upward increase in a couple spells, also our main nuke should do the same as dirges, why the ugly step child</DIV><p>Message Edited by smtjoy on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR>Having played both sides of the bard fence i can definitely say Troubs need more love but dirges could definitely use tweaks themselves.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Same and agree.</P> <P>Troubs need something more.</P> <P>Edit - Problem with making the self buff zero conc is that then effectively it wouldn't be a buff would it ? Since it would always be on (except on those very rare occasions that a mob debuffs) </P> <P>Some one already suggested a stance as other scouts get which to my view is what this self buff should be except it shouldn't be offence/defence it should be solo or group stance. </P> <P>So for solo stance the buff remains as is - then if it's a group stance it amplifies the bards other group buffs set percentage depending upon tier (off the top of my head maybe 12% per tier)</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Meadsong on <SPAN class=date_text>07-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:58 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Meadsong on <span class=date_text>07-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> <DIV> i really dont see a reason why a dirge master nuke does 20 % more damage than the trouby equivalent . no sorry thats just not right .</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because Dirges are considered the offensive side of the bard archtype while Troubadours are the defensive side. Ergo a troubadour should take less damage, but a dirge should do more. Thats the whole point of having two bard classes. Choices. </P> <P>I agree that a self buff shouldnt take concentration. No other classes have self buffs that take a concentration slot, why should bards?</P> <P> </P>

[Lindar Phamoncry]

<DIV>FYI there is already a Consolodated Dirge issue thread here: (Dev's will probably never look there I know)</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=7704" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=7704</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cant really speak for Troubs with enough of a broad knowledge to consider my suggestions valid so I wont go there</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as far as Dirges go I think that many are trying to get the class's direction in one it shouldnt go. We do not need more personal DPS... the only problem with our dps was in soloing... Root/Daze/Reactive proc on self buff have fixed that (tyvm Devs). Want to show up in the top ten in parses while raiding(? YOU ALREADY ARE! the aditional dammage a.) being directly influenced by you onto other melee dps'ers and b.) the additional dammage being done raid-wide due to your hate buff on the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to be on the poisons bandwagon... not for the damage but for the additional debuffs, I have since agreed however that it would simply cause too much whining amongst those that already do use poisons (even though a large amount of them still think we can already)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree we need some tweaking though. My solution... give us instruments that affect either the dammage or duration of specific lines of songs of ours. For example a Lute that adds an additional 50% to the duration of fear, or a drum that adds an additional chance for Tombs to proc(which still hasn't been worth hardly anything since LU13), it would give us something to make one of our existing skills shine. make these instruments take up our Ranged slot and weigh the stats of it against the effect it would have on our songs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*tosses the bartender a few silver for some more quality whine* =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lindar Phamoncry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Tomanak wrote:</P> <P>Because Dirges are considered the offensive side of the bard archtype while Troubadours are the defensive side. Ergo a troubadour should take less damage, but a dirge should do more. Thats the whole point of having two bard classes. Choices.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not quite the case... both classes have both an offensive as well as a defensive group of songs... Dirges for example can run their Parry/stoneskin buff or change them when needed to a dps/noxious proc buff.</P> <P>The difference between the two is that Dirges are more melee oriented while Troubs are more caster oriented.</P> <P>That still does not explain why the Dirge nuke does more than the troub nuke, though I have not tested this myself to see the difference as well as the comparison of INT between the classes which would affect it greatly. I know a guildy of mine has the Master 1 Troub nuke and as I recall it does more than my AD1 Nuke</P>

[Krooner]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lindar Phamoncry wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Tomanak wrote:</P> <P>Because Dirges are considered the offensive side of the bard archtype while Troubadours are the defensive side. Ergo a troubadour should take less damage, but a dirge should do more. Thats the whole point of having two bard classes. Choices.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not quite the case... both classes have both an offensive as well as a defensive group of songs... Dirges for example can run their Parry/stoneskin buff or change them when needed to a dps/noxious proc buff.</P> <P>The difference between the two is that Dirges are more melee oriented while Troubs are more caster oriented.</P> <P>That still does not explain why the Dirge nuke does more than the troub nuke, though I have not tested this myself to see the difference as well as the comparison of INT between the classes which would affect it greatly. I know a guildy of mine has the Master 1 Troub nuke and as I recall it does more than my AD1 Nuke</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I totally agree that the Troubs need some loving.  I dont think it was fair to have their charm nerfed to the level that they did.   Some would say that their charm has the potential of doing more damage than a dirge nuke.  A few nerfed ago I would have said that was the case.  But last time I saw it was nerfed to like 8 seconds.  With server lag and such thats not much help.  It should at least have the same duration as our fear ( 16 seconds.)</DIV> <DIV>As for us:</DIV> <DIV>personal buff with no conc slot?  sure might be nice.</DIV> <DIV>redo tombs line to be a group wide desease damage shield that procs off AOE's as well?  That would rock and the troubs could get something similar.</DIV> <DIV>CoB increased duration?  YEP need it because it has been nerfed more than twice.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Killerbee3000]

<P>ok, right away, i dont solo a lot with my troubadour, biut what a troubadour brings to groups and raids are buffs, however, playerskills dont affect the quality of the buffs at all. </P> <P>take a ranger as an example, his job is dps (and avoid steling aggro), through learning his class he can increase his dps while stealing aggro less often.</P> <P>or a defiler as another example, his job is to keep the group alive, howver, if he starts healing too early or too late it leads to a wipe, i.e. his playerskills determine if the group survives or not. </P> <P>or take a guardian as a last example, his skills are improtant because he has to keep aggro, decide what mob to pull when and how and so on. </P> <P>but the problem with bards is that buffing is their job (atleast in groups/raids) and for that the skills of the player dont matter at all. casting a buff and recasting it (if fighting mobs like haraghur that dispells some of the buffs) is way too easy and doesnt have any room for variety that comes from playerskills. </P> <P>basically what i say is a tank can tank better by learning how to play his class better, but a bard cant increase the quality of his buffs through learning how to play the class.</P>

[K3mik4l]

<blockquote><hr>Emerix wrote:i really dont see a reason why a dirge master nuke does 20% more damage than the trouby equivalent . no sorry thats just not right .<hr></blockquote>The recast of dirge nuke is 5 seconds longer...or did someone already point that out? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by K3mik4l on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[Lindar Phamoncry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> K3mik4l wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR>i really dont see a reason why a dirge master nuke does 20% more damage than the trouby equivalent . no sorry thats just not right . <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The recast of dirge nuke is 5 seconds longer.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>seems like a pretty good explanation to me... nice catch K3mik4l

[Godzmodi]

selos - no upgrade since what 42? dove song - useless, never play it RoR - completely useless, takes 2 spells hits to proc? comon... change to be just liek dirges, cept from spells... health regen - i use only when dueling or soloing (when i need to mez), group situations its pathetic. other spells supercede it self buff - dear god make it no conc str/sta - (awsome spell, always have it up) mana regen - (obv good) flower power - (dehate is all i feel i am there for on raids, dehate and regen.) haste - (not as effective as DPS, scales really low....) aria - (procs are always nice, though the proc isnt 30% anymore due to the revamp on procs, its a whole lot less it seems) balatic - (defense is easily capped for those who acutally need defense, parry is insanely better) i always have mana regen, str/sta, dehate, and any of the 3, self buff/haste/aria (depends on group set up) our soloing abilities is very weak. we cannot take hits like other classes, nor can we root, nor can we put up the dmg, nor can we heal. we get hit hard, have to stand our ground and overall are some of the worst soloers. raids? there is no skill difference between a newly raiding troub and a veteren raider (if they play the same songs) except the damage (although crappy) they put on the board, sides knowing when to throw PoM in at the best spot. cookie cutter class, we can be boxed and almost reach the same level of expectance we would get. our AAs are subpar. we have what? 1, 1 and half good AAs. a bowshot with dehate HAAAA! taht suits me nicely, and goes along with the DM bard DW that decreased hate. LOLOL. DKTM is a great AA line, too bad its the only really good one. poision? ....crappy damage, it just didnt add up to enough damage. bladedance is nice although 10 min recast hurts it alot.and allegro is too little, it lessened most of my spells by .1 seconds... yay... bards need a WHOLE lot of attention... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty dps combined with mostly useless/broken/not effective enough  buffs, o and CC was totally nerfed, which i went from using it a whole lot everyday to i moved it on my hot bar so its next to call of the overlord, its there, i use it sometimes, but i never really use it often. and charm... 7 secs? ahaha [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you gonna do for 7 secs... lets see charm a mob, by the time you click on another mob and send it in you have 5 secs, and then you have 2 mobs to fight. bards are def one the most underpowered/underapprecipated/overlooked class type in the game. i just dont think the desigeners totally thought this class through. plz buff us. i am becoming increasingly bored.... <div></div>

[Ballads]

<div><blockquote><hr>Godzmodiar wrote:selos - no upgrade since what 42?<font color="#ffff00"> Mounts continued to get faster during this time. I can understand not wanting to overpower it but shouldnt i have got an upgrade to atleast match the fastest horse?</font> dove song - useless, never play it <font color="#ffff00">Problem with the game as a whole. Melee skills or casting skills have  little affect if any .They only seem to do any good really if someone isnt at there lvl cap in that skill.(Fighters like melee to counter the peaniltys of def stances.) but  beond lvl cap they do squat.  They definitly dont make you attack or cast like you were  a lvl higher for every 5 points in it. </font> RoR - completely useless, takes 2 spells hits to proc? comon... change to be just liek dirges, cept from spells...     <font color="#ffff00">Useless except fp pvp</font> health regen - i use only when dueling or soloing (when i need to mez), group situations its pathetic. other spells supercede it <font color="#ffff00">Is usfull when you have to mezz, never use it in a raid or group with a healer.Like to see it atleast match the zerkers.</font> self buff - dear god make it no conc <font color="#ffff00">Or maybe just give us stances</font> str/sta - (awsome spell, always have it up) mana regen - (obv good) flower power - (dehate is all i feel i am there for on raids, dehate and regen.) <font color="#ffff00">Same</font> haste - (not as effective as DPS, scales really low....) <font color="#ffff00">Scaling Blows 6% since lvl 42 alomost everyone has a good haste item. there are what 2-3 dps items in game and 0 scout usable t7</font> aria - (procs are always nice, though the proc isnt 30% anymore due to the revamp on procs, its a whole lot less it seems) balatic - (defense is easily capped for those who acutally need defense, parry is insanely better) <font color="#ffff00">Ok, ok,ok, swan's song affect on def before combat revamp made tanks unhitable and broke the combat system. Quit punishing us for PLZ!!!</font> i always have mana regen, str/sta, dehate, and any of the 3, self buff/haste/aria (depends on group set up) our soloing abilities is very weak. we cannot take hits like other classes, nor can we root, nor can we put up the dmg, nor can we heal. we get hit hard, have to stand our ground and overall are some of the worst soloers.<font color="#ffff00"> Well it takes alot of work and way to much time but with mezz i can solo decently. Some classes have it worse. But before we get mezz idk what ppl do.</font> raids? there is no skill difference between a newly raiding troub and a veteren raider (if they play the same songs) except the damage (although crappy) they put on the board, sides knowing when to throw PoM in at the best spot. cookie cutter class, we can be boxed and almost reach the same level of expectance we would get. <font color="#ffff00">Thanks for the bone you threw us in LU24 . We can beat healers now, woot! Now fix are buffs, we are a utility class.</font> our AAs are subpar. we have what? 1, 1 and half good AAs. a bowshot with dehate HAAAA! taht suits me nicely, and goes along with the DM bard DW that decreased hate. LOLOL. DKTM is a great AA line, too bad its the only really good one. poision? ....crappy damage, it just didnt add up to enough damage. bladedance is nice although 10 min recast hurts it alot.and allegro is too little, it lessened most of my spells by .1 seconds... yay...<font color="#ffff00">Well I'm actually fairly happy with are AA's but they suffer the same problem most classes do. You are forced into a linier progression. You end up spending 24 points to get 1 skill you want. I think i heard EoF's AA lines will not be linier and offer you more choices instead of being stuck in a line to get 1 or 2 skills.</font> bards need a WHOLE lot of attention... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty dps combined with mostly useless/broken/not effective enough  buffs, o and CC was totally nerfed, which i went from using it a whole lot everyday to i moved it on my hot bar so its next to call of the overlord, its there, i use it sometimes, but i never really use it often. and charm... 7 secs? ahaha [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you gonna do for 7 secs... lets see charm a mob, by the time you click on another mob and send it in you have 5 secs, and then you have 2 mobs to fight. bards are def one the most underpowered/underapprecipated/overlooked class type in the game. i just dont think the desigeners totally thought this class through. plz buff us. i am becoming increasingly bored.... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Godzmodiar Hits most the key points about are buffs we were asking for when you increased are dps. You did half the job and forgot the most important part. YOU DIDNT FIX ARE UTILITY   !! One last point to be over looked by Lockeye or whichever dev ignores this post. Dirges have both in combat res and group res. Please show me what spell in my spell book equals that kind of utility , i'd love to put it on my hotbars. Ballads NPU-Guk</div>

[Spiritunico]

<P>All we need is love...</P> <P><A href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z05zPJKasDw" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z05zPJKasDw</A></P> <P>Sorry, this thread really makes me think of this song for some reason. ^_^</P> <P>Hopefully one day the devs will come round to fixing our class, or at least stop nerfing for abit.</P> <P>Oh, maybe we could have some fun in our fun spells while your at it.</P> <P>I would like to be able to play my instruments at roleplay events and maybe even dance without having to use that dreadful /dance emote.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[StarryEyedElf]

<P>Per the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>forum rules of conduct</A> (ya know, those crazy things you agree to follow when posting here), devs will never respond to a post that calls them out.</P> <P>Hint hint.**</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>**That hint would be editing out all the demands for devs to respond and changing your title... hint hint</FONT></P>

[GegolianBadbain]

All of these amazing ideas, and ruined from the title? So lame. I don't even play these classes and I can easily say they are in desperate need of fixing.

[K3mik4l]

<blockquote><hr>Godzmodiar wrote:RoR - completely useless, takes 2 spells hits to proc? comon... change to be just liek dirges, cept from spells...<hr></blockquote>Percussion of Stone also takes 2 hits to be useful <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Needs to proc from one to absorb the next.Oh, and thread starter, change the title of the thread! Erase the portion between ( ) and tis all good <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote><hr>Spiritunicorn wrote:<a target="_blank" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z05zPJKasDw">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z05zPJKasDw</a><hr></blockquote><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by K3mik4l on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Yea i think they should change PoS to proc off the initial hit.  They also need to fix it from locking us in combat in pvp when we arnt enganged like the other proc spell/buff/items.  <div></div>

[Lordviperscorpian]

<div><blockquote><hr>StarryEyedElf wrote:<div></div> <p>Per the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">forum rules of conduct</a> (ya know, those crazy things you agree to follow when posting here), devs will never respond to a post that calls them out.</p> <p>Hint hint.**</p> <p><font size="1">**That hint would be editing out all the demands for devs to respond and changing your title... hint hint</font></p><hr></blockquote>Go troll on another board.  Were dealing with real issues about the bard class not just trolling.  Be gone useless mod.</div>

[K3mik4l]

<blockquote><hr>Lordviperscorpian wrote:Go troll on another board. Were dealing with real issues about the bard class not just trolling. Be gone useless mod.<hr></blockquote>Better delete this before someone sees...And there goes this thread <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by K3mik4l on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:32 AM</span>

[StarryEyedElf]

<P>Pretty much. I could have flat out locked the thread, but chose not to. I guess I'll make myself "useful" now and lock it.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>From the forum <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>rules of conduct</A>:</P> <P><STRONG>Things the Community Team and Development Team WILL MOST LIKELY NOT Respond To</STRONG></P> <UL> <LI><STRONG>Threads addressed to a “Red Name” or "devs."</STRONG> If we responded to them, then you would see hundreds of posts trying to get our attention this way. Threads with a name in the title will almost never see an official response.</LI></UL> <P>My not locking this thread was an attempt to be nice. But since the OP saw fit to name call the person trying to give him a hand, I must close this thread. Sorry folks.</P> <P>In the future, I don't reccomend biting the hand of the person trying to feed you.</P>