From a Crafter's PoV - LU24 IS A MASSIVE NERF

[Maroger]

<DIV>Crafting is really being nerfed out of existence in this LU24. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the things that made crafting specifal was the sub combines -- it stopped people from flooding the market with junk as they wouldn't waste the time on it. Now everything we make will be totally worthless. We can't even make a few silver from selling to an NPC. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really would like to know how developers could ever think they were improving the game when all they are doing is dealing a death of a thousand cuts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The obviously want to kill crafting and makie sure it is unprofitable FOR EVERYONE. We can no longer make legendary items. That is reserved for adventuring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why the push for adventurers??? People who craft pay the same money as adventurers to play this game, why does the whole game have to be geared to adventurers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see some of the crafting changes ROLLED BACK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could see maybe puting the WORTS on NPC vendors -- but I can't see doing away with the subcombines. True crafters really like them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think developerment should give some serious thought to NOT IMPLEMENTING all the crafting changes.</DIV>

[Bayler_x]

<blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote: ...  <div>The obviously want to kill crafting and makie sure it is unprofitable FOR EVERYONE. We can no longer make legendary items. That is reserved for adventuring.</div> <div>...</div><hr></blockquote>You forgot to mention the part about them sitting in their smoking jackets at SOE headquarters, cackling and twisting the ends of their mustaches between their fingers.<div></div>

[valkyrja]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div>Crafting is really being nerfed out of existence in this LU24. </div> <div> </div> <div>One of the things that made crafting specifal was the sub combines -- it stopped people from flooding the market with junk as they wouldn't waste the time on it. Now everything we make will be totally worthless. We can't even make a few silver from selling to an NPC. </div> <div> </div> <div>I really would like to know how developers could ever think they were improving the game when all they are doing is dealing a death of a thousand cuts.</div> <div> </div> <div>The obviously want to kill crafting and makie sure it is unprofitable FOR EVERYONE. We can no longer make legendary items. That is reserved for adventuring.</div> <div> </div> <div>Why the push for adventurers??? People who craft pay the same money as adventurers to play this game, why does the whole game have to be geared to adventurers.<font color="#ff0000">When you use the "I pay as much as they do" argument, you immediately lose any legit argument you may have. </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I would like to see some of the crafting changes ROLLED BACK.</div> <div> </div> <div>I could see maybe puting the WORTS on NPC vendors -- but I can't see doing away with the subcombines. True crafters really like them.<font color="#ff0000">What is a true crafter?  I have 3 crafting toons over level 50 and I hate subs.  I can't wait for the changes to take place, as now when someone asks me to make them some low level stuff I won't turn them down because I don't want to waste time making all the subs.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>I think developerment should give some serious thought to NOT IMPLEMENTING all the crafting changes.</div><hr></blockquote>I really think people need to calm down about this.  Sure some new people will begin crafting when the changes come up, but the bulk of them will still not like the new system and after a short while, will stop crafting.  So there might be a short influx in the market, but it will go back to normal.</div><p>Message Edited by sparql on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Krieg]

Dead horse.  Beaten and bloody.

[Finora]

<P>Double post opps.</P> <P>Message Edited by Calendri on <SPAN class=date_text>06-12-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:29 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 PM</span>

[Finora]

<P>Can we say bit of an overreaction?</P> <P>I've 3 lvl 70 crafters, a couple 40-50s, and a multitude of teens and 20s. I spend most of my time crafting and harvesting so I can craft. I am looking forward to subs being gone.  I didn't like the idea at first (because of how t7 was in the begining of KOS beta) but they improved upon it and now it will work out well in my opinion.</P> <P>The people who hate TS ing will still hate TSing. It will still take a lot of time (perhaps even more ) to level up. Some of the broker crafters will likely lose some money because they won't be able to get away with charging 4 pp for something that costs under 4 gold to combine if you find your own rare and less than 1.5 pp if you buy one. The rest of us might see more business as the combines won't take as long so we will be able to do combine while you wait business instead of mostly mail order. I know my sage is making even more money these days with t7 combines being so fast. I'm able to make 5 spells in the time it used to take me to make one.</P> <P>Don't knock the changes before you really give them a chance.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:29 PM</span>

[BWLeeEllison]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>It's always refreshing to see what new heights idiocy can acheive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>Crafting isn't being nerfed out of existance.  It is being given new life.  With subcombines going away, the "casual" crafter now has a chance to REALLY get into making things, opening up the market to competition from all sides.  It could be this is where most of the angst is coming from, in regards to major craftsmen in the game to date.  Let us not forget competition is good for business, so please stop the whining now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>Additionally, those who enjoy crafting will now be able to come out of the shops and actually experience some of the world's rich and diverse content.  Mayhaps Sony should offer sunglasses for those who spend so much time in the dungeons called crafting instances, so they don't go blind upon coming into the light for a change.  There are plenty of adventurers who could use the assistance of those who constantly chain themselves to a work bench.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>The changes to harvesting and crafting will only make it so that you do not have to suffer financial [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at the hands of ruthless crafters/brokers who currently hoard resources and drive prices up.  I personally can't wait to take advantage of the white sales that will spring up on all servers as of Wednesday 8P.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>If you are harvesting now, you should stop.  If you are tradeskilling now, you should stop.  Get out and enjoy the game for a couple of days then go back to your harvesting and skilling when the PITA factors in both activities have been removed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>RAGE ON</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>Kidknie Rippender of Nagafen</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>Kidknee Rippender of Crushbone</FONT></DIV>

[Pumarah]

Think I'll have to disagree in part her with the part about the sub-combines do they make it take longer, yes it does, but my real issue here is what is being offered in its place is the item at third level of quality, where as we for the most part as crafters willing to do that extra work can take it to the fourth/top level and that can be the little extra difference between getting a third or top quality item created, whethers it's armor and weapos, woodworking items, alchemy, scrolls and food/drink. I would have to say leave the subcombines in for those of us who want to make them, make it so we as crafters have the option of taking the new 'easier' For those with beavis and butthead intellects) route or the old fashioned and a bit more challanging method.

[Shadus]

Shrug, the crafting changes are about the only thing in LU24 i *do* like.<div></div>

[Impost]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pumarah wrote:<BR> Think I'll have to disagree in part her with the part about the sub-combines do they make it take longer, yes it does, but my real issue here is what is being offered in its place is the item at third level of quality, where as we for the most part as crafters willing to do that extra work can take it to the fourth/top level and that can be the little extra difference between getting a third or top quality item created, whethers it's armor and weapos, woodworking items, alchemy, scrolls and food/drink. I would have to say leave the subcombines in for those of us who want to make them, make it so we as crafters have the option of taking the new 'easier' For those with beavis and butthead intellects) route or the old fashioned and a bit more challanging method.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I love these kind of comments.  I have been playing this game since day one. I'm not a dedicated crafter or adventure.  I'm more of the ADHD kinda player.  Just do whatever gets my attention at that moment.  But to call someone stupid or as u put it "Beavis and butthead intellects" for wanting to get more faster in the same about of time just goes to show ur lack on intellect.  Every successful business in the world was built on the foundation of someone who found a way to do it faster and better.  So I'm all for letting u do it the old way.  When u come back and post in a month "Cry i can't make any money cause the market is flooded, ppl have twice as much stuff on there as me."  I will just laugh at u.

[MadLordOfMilk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Imposter wrote:<div></div>...as u put it "Beavis and butthead intellects" for wanting to get more <font color="#ff3300">faster in the same about of time</font> just goes to show ur lack on intellect.  Every...<hr></blockquote>Just a side-note, you contradicted yourself there <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[redlance68]

<P>Actually i feel this LU is a boon to crafting as a whole.. yeah some gear is getting downgraded. especially hard hit will be armor and weapons. However, I feel the loss of subcombines is AWESOME!</P> <P>I craft for my guilies and myself. I dont think that a legendary rock/root/gem should be so high on the scale either.. they are relatively easy to get. One thing that people are whining about is it took alot of mining or harvesting or whatever to get such and such. Well this live update makes it easier to get that. </P> <P> </P> <P>So we have simplified crafting check. easier harvesting check. harvesting skill helps check. harvesting tools to reduce time spent check. downgrade of some things to compensate how rediculously easy harvest is gonna be check. more legendaries in market. most probably. more desperately needed fighter loams.. god i hope so for the fighters. </P> <P> </P> <P>For me this update means 1. my level 70 crafters will be used more but spend less time doing it.</P> <P>I get to play in the game more.</P> <P>No more people being soaked as bad.. (still will be soaked free market and at all)</P> <P>and crafted gear will be relegated as gear to wear till you earn better set. but still gear that has a purpose. As for the doom and gloom peeps.. well you can feel doom and gloom. but people actually do buy apprentice spells.. and they upgrade later.. they will buy common crafted armor. just upgrade.. and they will buy a cheap legendary if thier whim hits.. and get an armor made.. but there is always better.</P>

[Rast]

<P>In many ways I agree with the OP here.  LU 24 will herald a downward slide in crafting unless major modifications are made.</P> <P>In LU24 we lose subcombines, but to compensate for the 'simplicity' and 'speed' of creation we also get a reitemization nerf which really hurts anyone crafting weapons or armor.  We also get a sell to vendor nerf, where all you will get is the fuel costs back.  Not the small profit (and I do mean small) we get now for vendoring all the crap we make to be able to make the rares, not that rares will be worth making after the LU.</P> <P>This isn't the death knell of crafting, but it is certainly getting a crudgel upside the head and the burlap sack (which was ironically made by crafters) is about to be put over their heads for easy transport.  They have truly taken it from a playstyle to a sideline, and that make me sad.</P>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<blockquote><hr>BWLeeEllison schrieb:<div></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">It's always refreshing to see what new heights idiocy can acheive.</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Crafting isn't being nerfed out of existance.  It is being given new life.  <b>With subcombines going away, the "casual" crafter now has a chance to REALLY get into making things</b>, opening up the market to competition from all sides.  It could be this is where most of the angst is coming from, in regards to major craftsmen in the game to date.  Let us not forget competition is good for business, so please stop the whining now.</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"><b>Additionally, those who enjoy crafting will now be able to come out of the shops and actually experience some of the world's rich and diverse content.</b>  Mayhaps Sony should offer sunglasses for those who spend so much time in the dungeons called crafting instances, so they don't go blind upon coming into the light for a change.  There are plenty of adventurers who could use the assistance of those who constantly chain themselves to a work bench.</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">The changes to harvesting and crafting will only make it so that you do not have to suffer financial [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at the hands of ruthless crafters/brokers who currently hoard resources and drive prices up.  I personally can't wait to take advantage of the white sales that will spring up on all servers as of Wednesday 8P.</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">If you are harvesting now, you should stop.  If you are tradeskilling now, you should stop.  Get out and enjoy the game for a couple of days then go back to your harvesting and skilling when the PITA factors in both activities have been removed.</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">RAGE ON</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Kidknie Rippender of Nagafen</font></div> <div><font color="#3399cc" face="Comic Sans MS" size="3">Kidknee Rippender of Crushbone</font></div><hr></blockquote>you said all which is needed. The summary is good. But this is the mistake. SOE announced that the players may decide wether they want to do tradeskill or adventuring and that both ways will be interessting to do. you said correctly that crafting is now for casuals and that the "real" crafters have to go out to find something interessting. My summary is: it is a kick for all old crafters and a bonus to all hardcore adventurers. It is because of the whining off the masses that they had to pay for crafted stuff. Like the one who ask me to craft him a t6 rare buckler with imbue. He ask me if the lambent was in the price of 15 gold because he thoughts this was too expensive. My result after LU24 will be, that i will only craft for friends. Everybody else i will tell to do it himeself.<div></div>

[Rast]

I know for me, I am simply looking at getting my crafters into their 60s and then probably walking away...

[SwissArmySh]

<P>I'm one of the "Crafting drives me nuts with the amount of subcombines" crowd.</P> <P>I for one will be happy to see the subcombines go, I might actualy put the time and effort in to level up past lvl 30 without wanting to strangle myself. </P>

[Jerr]

<DIV>Looks like the WOW(instant gratification) crowd is out in force.  From the very beginning SOE has started crafting down that slippery slope of making it easier for those not willing to take the time and effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You love the no sub-combines because now it fits your "get it on demand" lifestyle.  Face it-a lot of people of come to expect things right away  and are unwilling and lose interest if something takes a time commitment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason I liked crafting was because it too longer and you actually had to make the various pieces a real craftsman would have to make in order to fashion an item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we have entered the arena of Harry Potter potions class--a rock-a piece of wood-a gem and some fuel-throw it all into the cauldron and viola--a apell pops out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quite a few people enjoyed the process of actually making each piece-the ink-the quill-the paper.... and seeing your crafting come actually somewhat mimick how it is actually done in real life. For you flamers I said "somewhat"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the ADHD crowd gets to throw it all into one part-say a magic word-and out pops a spell..or whatever your crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just sad SOE is taking the complexity and effort out of this game. I don't want another WOW-I picked EQ2 specifically because its harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sad,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerril</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rast]

I know Jerril,  been trying to fight it for a while now, but it was a lost cause then, it is a lost cause now.

[Hukklebuk]

I thought I was going to hate the change coming in LU24, so I broke out a character I had sitting on Test for crafting purposes and I like it a lot better.I harvested and adventured for about 8 hours and got to lvl 18 adventure...  hit the crafting station and made lvl 18 sage in about 2 hours.  (no not all in one day).  The only thing I did was make the spells I needed.. I in no way crafted everything in the recipe books.Now keep in mind on Test there is a permanent bonus to XP of both types, and the character had full vitatlity from sitting around on test under a name and only a newbie island log in.I think folks will be making things they would avoid in the past, be more willing to help others out accross all tiers, and overall I think it will be more enjoyable.And believe me I was a staunch supporter and flag waver for not changing the crafting process  or if they did to simply allow stacks to be made.  After seeing it and using it,  I like it...There are a few minor issues with names of items etc.. but a job well done I think.<div></div>

[Terabethia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerril wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just sad SOE is taking the complexity and effort out of this game. I don't want another WOW-I picked EQ2 specifically because its harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sad,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerril</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#33ccff>What's sad is, the game you picked is not the most popular of them. Wow has 3 times, if not more, players than EQ2. There are several reasons behind this, but either way, SoE is missing out of a lot of customers who are picking WoW instead of EQ2. One huge factor that people like about WoW is that it is, for lack of a better word, easier. You do not have to spend as much time in the game to get to the end, and it is less effort there to be "uber". Other factor's include less expensive hareware requirements which allow more people to be able to afford to play, their outstanding and award-winning customer service, and the long following that WarCraft has in general.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Don't get me wrong, I love EQ2 and I got bored of WoW after 4 days (co-workers made me try it out! :smileytongue: ). But in the end, SoE is running a business, and it is very clear right now that the majority of MMO players, EQ2 ones included, want it this way. Sadly, you are in the minority. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Note: To the person here who mentioned it, and all the others that have said it, there is no way to make it so that you can craft combines and everyone else can choose the "easy" way. That would require making and creating two sets of recipies for everything, as well as maintaining those recipies. And don't get me started on the balance issue of it. </FONT></P>

[Dasein]

Crafting is pathetically easy, with our without subcombines. Crafting consists of pressing one or two buttons over and over again for hours on end. There is virutally no skill involved. As a crafter, I have 3 total abilities I use, ever. As an adventurer, I have over 30 that I use for different situations.

[Raveller]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pumarah wrote:<BR> Think I'll have to disagree in part her with the part about the sub-combines do they make it take longer, yes it does, <FONT color=#ffcc00>but my real issue here is what is being offered in its place is the item at third level of quality, where as we for the most part as crafters willing to do that extra work can take it to the fourth/top level and that can be the little extra difference between getting a third or top quality item created,</FONT> whethers it's armor and weapos, woodworking items, alchemy, scrolls and food/drink. I would have to say leave the subcombines in for those of us who want to make them, make it so we as crafters have the option of taking the new 'easier' For those with beavis and butthead intellects) route or the old fashioned and a bit more challanging method.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?</P> <P>If you mean to say that somehow your pristine items are better than anyone else's pristine items, then you have no experience with EQ2 crafting and you're whining for the sake of whining.</P> <P>If you mean to say that player crafted items are getting nerfed in LU24, then you are correct. But then again, player crafted gear has always been the poor cousin to common looted and quested gear.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Raveller on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 AM</span>

[ornack]

<DIV>I, too, am part of the "subcombines suck [Removed for Content]" contingent.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After reading a few posts, I realize that my input is going to be instantly discounted by most as I have only been playing the game for 2 mos.  I was not around for "walking up of the hills both ways" days of adventuring and TS'ing.  That being said... this is my, a true newb, perspective...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><STRONG>"Quite a few people enjoyed the process of actually making each piece-the ink-the quill-the paper.... "</STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I agree.  when I first started the game, I thought "Wow, this is pretty clever, so you have to make everything... each component!  Very realistic.  I likes"</DIV> <DIV>Two months in, now I think "Wow, this eff'n sux, so you have to make everything... each component!  Too realistic. Far too much work for something I'm paying *real* money for"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enter CraftingBots - While I refuse to use one myself because I'm a cheap [Removed for Content], with the umpteen subs that must be created, if one were offered for free I might have to reconsider.  Thank gawd for LU#24... now I no longer have to be tempted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM>"Crafting is pathetically easy"</EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Agreed, which contributes to the boring factor.  Making subcombines might be fun if it were challenging.  I can honestly say I've never dozed during an Adventure... but cannot say the same re: TS'ing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"<STRONG>want to kill crafting and makie sure it is unprofitable FOR EVERYONE"</STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV>If I had a job where I was making 10x more than what I was worth, I'd complain if I got a severe pay-cut... regardless of how justifiable it was.  </DIV> <DIV>Again, Newb perspective... but not having a level 70 toon to feed me plat for gear and spell upgrades, the current economy is completly jacked and is very evident with the amounts TS'ers are able to charge for their wares. Tradeskilling pays much better than Adventuring.  A Sage being to charge 15gp for a Tier 4 Adept III... only if you have the rare? A Jeweler being able to charge over a plat for a lvl 40 ring? (realizing prices vary)  Playing the game the way it's designed to be played (i.e. not farming named and/or instances, completeing quests in timely manner, doing the long fed-ex HQs) There's no way I could make that in a night with a group and sho-nuff not gonna get there soloing.  I would love to have a utility that shows how much coin has flowed through my char, b/c I would argue that I've only made about 2p in total since starting 2 months ago.     </DIV>

[Vorlak]

<P>I am not a tradeskiller by anymeans, I am an adventure but from my perspective the OP is correct this is going to screw up the market.</P> <P>Why dont people tradeskill now, because the subcombines take forever. Removing them will cause people to make more items on the market bringing down the prices. This might seem like a good thing to some but bad for others. In either case without the subcombines I will be making my tailor and sage so I no longer need to pay for those services. </P> <P>I dont know if its a nerf, but it definitly makes bot/macroing alot easier.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sony really should have just made it to where you could make stacks of 5, 10, 15, 20 from raws refines, and 5 stacks per subcomine. All this patch does is make the world of everquest2 more in the line of everquest1 in reguard to tradeskills except we dont get to carry around a tailorkit (yet)</P>

[Hukklebuk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div></div>Crafting is pathetically easy, with our without subcombines. Crafting consists of pressing one or two buttons over and over again for hours on end. There is virutally no skill involved. As a crafter, I have 3 total abilities I use, ever. As an adventurer, I have over 30 that I use for different situations.<hr></blockquote>it's nearly the same now as it was in EQ1, except it's not portable and you still have to counter 3 things...  /shrughardest thing about tailoring in EQ1 was farming the [Removed for Content] silks......hardest thing here is going to be harvesting the [Removed for Content] roots....</div>

[Rast]

<P>The real issue isn't subs vs no subs...  I admit that the no subs has a distinct advantange expecially in regards to lower tier creation and simplicity.  But there is a price paid for that simplicity and it is one I didn't want to see us paid, but people kept shouting, be quiet or argue about the reitemization...</P> <P>The problem being is, they are connected.  The Devs apparent dislike of crafter, the simplification into a sideline and the nerfing of most, if not all products either by terms of true nerfs (making an item weaker) or by psuedo nerfs (making all the drop items around the item better).  There is only one crafting profession that escapes this and that is the provie who has no rares to start with and has a natural advantage in that very few quests give food and it doesn't drop as loot.</P> <P>We are getting nerfed, and the sad thing is people can't or refuse to see why.   We aren't wanted.  We just dig in the dirt.  We take no risks.  They are all just greedy profiteers.  All you do is press buttons.  All of these have been slurs used against us by players and by developers.  They blame crafters for rare goods being so expensive, but then set their rare prices though the roof forcing us to charge that, and yet it is our fault.  We don't go 'kill' everything in sight, so therefore we have no risk...  Tell that to the poor soul trying to harvest T7 rares in his underwear because he knows his is going to die 30 times.  We just dig in the dirt...  That one has kept me ticked ever since I heard it...  Yes and magically we get rares every bloody time we do it, NOT!  All we do is press buttons...  and all the raider does is press buttons too, that is all ANY of us do.  I can tell you right now, the most complex toon I've ever played is a ranger, but even that strategy can be boiled down to a sequence of button presses.  As can the Paladin, the Guardian, the Monk, Any Scout, Fighter or Mage...  The only class that has to really think is the healers and that is because their job is the only unscripted one.</P> <P>It just disgusts me really...  I'm already looking at losing two members of my guild over various nerfs in this LU...  Several others are talking about leaving as well...</P> <P><shakes head></P> <P>This game had huge potential...  Had the ability to become a game I could have probably enjoyed for a very, very long time even with the clumsy graphics and poorly designed zones.  It had the potential of being a game where adventurers and crafters could exist side by side, both play styles being supported, but that wasn't acceptable to certain play styles who wanted the instant gratification or the me now syndrome.  I am someone who wouldn't care if I could only physically craft 3-5 things a WEEK and couldn't adventure with that character at all.</P> <P>Why, tell me, does crafting HAVE to be a sideline?  Why does everyone out there discount that crafters are those who CHOOSE to play a game a certain way.  If I wanted to adventure more, then I would build bloody adventurers.  I like to craft, and specifically craft things that are useful to the game...  Unfortunately, that is being taken away from me and anyone else who enjoys this underappreciated and often critized playstyle.</P> <P>I hope you all are happy, because many of us are not.</P>

[Raveller]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorlak wrote:<BR> <P>I am not a tradeskiller by anymeans, I am an adventure but from my perspective the OP is correct this is going to screw up the market.</P> <P>Why dont people tradeskill now, because the subcombines take forever. Removing them will cause people to make more items on the market bringing down the prices. This might seem like a good thing to some but bad for others. In either case without the subcombines I will be making my tailor and sage so I no longer need to pay for those services. </P> <P>I dont know if its a nerf, but it definitly makes bot/macroing alot easier.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sony really should have just made it to where you could make stacks of 5, 10, 15, 20 from raws refines, and 5 stacks per subcomine. All this patch does is make the world of everquest2 more in the line of everquest1 in reguard to tradeskills except we dont get to carry around a tailorkit (yet)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The market will not get flooded, except by players like myself who will be giddy at not have to suffer through the mindless factory-drone work of making subs. Even we won't flood the market, but just increase production beyond our personal needs. The net effect will be that, with any luck, items will sell at a tier appropriate price instead of being jacked out of reality. The only people who are complaining about possible market flooding are those who price gouging anyway.</P> <P>There may be a short term increase in player crafted goods in T1 or even T2, but for the most part that will be players experimenting with the new crafting system. It still takes time to level up a crafter and most players just won't take the time to do so.</P> <P>Don't panic, the sky is not falling.<BR></P>

[Raveller]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>They blame crafters for rare goods being so expensive, but then set their rare prices though the roof forcing us to charge that, and yet it is our fault. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great, big, fat hole in your arguement there. As a crafter, you should never, under any circumstances, provide the rare raw to your customer. Always, always, always require your customer to supply his own rare raw. That way, you only have to charge for your skill, and you are immune to the market prices of rares.<BR>

[MRRX]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P> We also get a sell to vendor nerf, where all you will get is the fuel costs back.  Not the small profit (and I do mean small) we get now for vendoring all the crap we make</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yikes.      There goes the last thing my alchemist actually "sold".     If by some miracle I can actually broker common potions after the update, I may progress, otherwise level 44 will be my alkie's cap.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That change just makes no sense at all.   </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://mrrx.wordpress.com/" target=_blank>MrrX's Character Journal</A></DIV>

[Rast]

<DIV>I agree, the market will not get flooded with weapons or armor because after the nerf, they are going to be completely worthless and unsellable.  You will not see an increase in appIV skills, because again, they are worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might see more rares in various teirs being sold, but again, since they are relatively worthless compared to the cost of the rares involved, you likely will not even see that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This LU will only cause crafted goods to become less valuable and even if it does flood the market, no one will care other than having to weed though more trash to find the ledgendary/fabled gear to buy...  oh wait, they don't even have to do that, they can simply filter it out.</DIV>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raveller wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>They blame crafters for rare goods being so expensive, but then set their rare prices though the roof forcing us to charge that, and yet it is our fault. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great, big, fat hole in your arguement there. As a crafter, you should never, under any circumstances, provide the rare raw to your customer. Always, always, always require your customer to supply his own rare raw. That way, you only have to charge for your skill, and you are immune to the market prices of rares.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm an armorer, of course I buy rares to make armors out of to sell on a broker.  I agree, that is how scholars work and special requests work, but I can't sit around waiting on someone to need an ebon bp or a cobalt one, I make them and broker them off, so no, I am not insulated from the market.<BR>

[Rashaak]

<DIV>Some of the same things were said when the combat changes came out. Same thing was said when the servers merged. Same thing was said when they changed guild leveling. Same thing was even said when the made the cross skill books for crafters. Everyone say's it's a nerf, it'll ruin the game, it's killing the game, etc etc etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is...we are all still here playing. We've adapted to the changes and our character's still progress, make coin, and still have good functionality within groups. We may not all like the changes that occur, and that is mainly because when one gets used to a certain way of having things, they don't want to see it being changed. Thinking it'll ruin the game, or kill a class/craft, even that EQ2 is dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafters have been asking for a change to the current system for a long time. Where adventuring has taken the lime light for a long time in changes to balance the system out (which if you have half a brain will know that there never truly will be a balance), its about time tradeskills got some looking into.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You ask why are legendary crafted items are being taken away? Well...they are not. They are being changed to Master-Crafted. Personally I think that adds a bit more diversity to us as crafters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why the push for adventurers? It's not that there is a push, but it has been made known quite extensively that there isn't enough legendary/fabled drops out there, and that the crafted items are better than most loot drops, but the prices are outlandish. Which...they are, since the raw's needed to make the items are priced well above where they should be. So a crafter has to get their money back if they purchase from the broker, so prices go up. Those that harvest see prices go up, so they raise the prices. It's a never ending economical nightmare. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people wish nothing more than to craft, and to spend hours making a bunch of components that will do nothing for them financially it's just a simple burden. For me, as a casual gamer who trys to not only adventure but craft it's tedious and annoying. My hour or two I spend that day playing I don't want to spend it making a bunch of WORT's or Leather Straps, Hilts, Refined wood, staves, bars, edges, crossguards, pommels, studs, spikes, or hammer heads JUST to get to my final product. Logically it makes sense that each product would have to be made if it were reality...but it's not. It doesn't give any sense of immersion into the game, and becomes more work than fun. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adventurer's will always get top billing, they have multiple staff's working on the overall playability and immersion of the game and it's mechanics. Tradeskills there is only Beghn, and his small team of developers. Crafting only really makes up a small percentage of what EQ2 has to offer, so TS/Harvesting will get looked at, but not at the same level as adventuring. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting will be getting more love in the EoF expansion with the ability to enhance certain items with runes and such, so...expect several changes with crafting within the next 6 months. Believe me...its more than crafting has gotten since launch, so be happy, and adapt!!</DIV>

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting will be getting more love in the EoF expansion with the ability to enhance certain items with runes and such, so...expect several changes with crafting within the next 6 months. Believe me...its more than crafting has gotten since launch, so be happy, and adapt!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I hope so.  I want to have hope.  There is little detail and much confusion on the adornment topic, but I've gotten the impression that it's a distinct possibility that crafters might be out of the loop entirely in the adornment system.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Some of the same things were said when the combat changes came out. Same thing was said when the servers merged. Same thing was said when they changed guild leveling. Same thing was even said when the made the cross skill books for crafters. Everyone say's it's a nerf, it'll ruin the game, it's killing the game, etc etc etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is...we are all still here playing. We've adapted to the changes and our character's still progress, make coin, and still have good functionality within groups. We may not all like the changes that occur, and that is mainly because when one gets used to a certain way of having things, they don't want to see it being changed. Thinking it'll ruin the game, or kill a class/craft, even that EQ2 is dying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafters have been asking for a change to the current system for a long time. Where adventuring has taken the lime light for a long time in changes to balance the system out (which if you have half a brain will know that there never truly will be a balance), its about time tradeskills got some looking into.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You ask why are legendary crafted items are being taken away? Well...they are not. They are being changed to Master-Crafted. Personally I think that adds a bit more diversity to us as crafters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why the push for adventurers? It's not that there is a push, but it has been made known quite extensively that there isn't enough legendary/fabled drops out there, and that the crafted items are better than most loot drops, but the prices are outlandish. Which...they are, since the raw's needed to make the items are priced well above where they should be. So a crafter has to get their money back if they purchase from the broker, so prices go up. Those that harvest see prices go up, so they raise the prices. It's a never ending economical nightmare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people wish nothing more than to craft, and to spend hours making a bunch of components that will do nothing for them financially it's just a simple burden. For me, as a casual gamer who trys to not only adventure but craft it's tedious and annoying. My hour or two I spend that day playing I don't want to spend it making a bunch of WORT's or Leather Straps, Hilts, Refined wood, staves, bars, edges, crossguards, pommels, studs, spikes, or hammer heads JUST to get to my final product. Logically it makes sense that each product would have to be made if it were reality...but it's not. It doesn't give any sense of immersion into the game, and becomes more work than fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adventurer's will always get top billing, they have multiple staff's working on the overall playability and immersion of the game and it's mechanics. Tradeskills there is only Beghn, and his small team of developers. Crafting only really makes up a small percentage of what EQ2 has to offer, so TS/Harvesting will get looked at, but not at the same level as adventuring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crafting will be getting more love in the EoF expansion with the ability to enhance certain items with runes and such, so...expect several changes with crafting within the next 6 months. Believe me...its more than crafting has gotten since launch, so be happy, and adapt!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'd like to know what game you are playing because it doesn't seem to match the one I am...  Crafted better than dropped?  Only cobalt and that is being nerfed back to t5 range (on test is is no better mit wise than ebon).  We are not 'gaining' mastercrafted, we are being dropped to it...  OUR LEDGENDARY STUFF IS GETTING NERFED (for those who don't seem to get that fact), it was going to be considered TREASURED, you know...  common drop range here...</P> <P>Our gear is sub par to what can be gotten on solo common drops, our 'master crafted' (which is a joke and makes it easier to filter out in the broker) will be less than rare drop goods at all times and less than some common group drops.  Forget selling stuff, it will be crap.  Forget selling it to a vendor, because all you'll get is fuel.</P> <P>Open your eyes people, look at this for what it is.  It is the continuation of a stupid choice made 6 months after release when they removed interdependency.  It is a cave in to raiders who can't accept that someone who doesn't waste their bloody life away in some pathetic instance in some super guild can get respectable gear.  It is a complete and total thumb to the nose for anyone who wants to be a honest and dedicated crafter.  It is the apex of the dirt digger comment.  Only problem is, apparently some of you have your heads so far in the sand that you can't see it for digging in the dirt.</P> <P>pathetic.</P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Jooneau]

No subcombines is good; I disagree with the OP about that. However, nerfing tradeskill products is bad. As it is, common tradeskill items are garbage only suitable for tradeskill level grinding, and rare ones are barely comparable to common treasured loot.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>No subcombines is good; I disagree with the OP about that. However, nerfing tradeskill products is bad. As it is, common tradeskill items are garbage only suitable for tradeskill level grinding, and rare ones are barely comparable to common treasured loot.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Problem is Jooneau, they are linked.  You can't have quality goods that are easy to produce.  This isn't a have your cake and eat it too, there has to be a give point and thanks to those who want it, we got what we bloody deserved.</P> <P>Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.</P> <P>(and yes, I am beginning to really become...  cynical about this)</P>

[Rashaak]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'd like to know what game you are playing because it doesn't seem to match the one I am...  Crafted better than dropped?  Only cobalt and that is being nerfed back to t5 range (on test is is no better mit wise than ebon).  We are not 'gaining' mastercrafted, we are being dropped to it...  OUR LEDGENDARY STUFF IS GETTING NERFED (for those who don't seem to get that fact), it was going to be considered TREASURED, you know...  common drop range here...</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our gear is sub par to what can be gotten on solo common drops, our 'master crafted' (which is a joke and makes it easier to filter out in the broker) will be less than rare drop goods at all times and less than some common group drops.  Forget selling stuff, it will be crap.  Forget selling it to a vendor, because all you'll get is fuel.</P> <P>Open your eyes people, look at this for what it is.  It is the continuation of a stupid choice made 6 months after release when they removed interdependency.  It is a cave in to raiders who can't accept that someone who doesn't waste their bloody life away in some pathetic instance in some super guild can get respectable gear.  It is a complete and total thumb to the nose for anyone who wants to be a honest and dedicated crafter.  It is the apex of the dirt digger comment.  Only problem is, apparently some of you have your heads so far in the sand that you can't see it for digging in the dirt.</P> <P>pathetic.</P> <P>Message Edited by Raston on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:06 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>All I have to say is look in the mirror when you say pathetic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You were obviously around when the cross-skill books were made. I bet you ANYTHING you still made coin. When the combat changes were done, you were probably one screaming that this is the end! This is the END! Your still here! Still gaining levels...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I'll say this from the cheap seats newb "IF YOU THINK YOU CAN DO BETTER...GO AND DO IT!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People like you who flame other's because of your own ignorance, can't see past the tunnel vision you created for yourself. All you see is nerf nerf nerf. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game has gone through so many changes since launch, and each time a major change came up, people like you cryed it's going to ruin the game, they are caving into raiders, they are giving into the soler's, blah blah blah.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can see past your ignorance, you see this game is in fact STILL here!! Even with these changes where it was predicted by our elostrious and all knowing gamers (<sarcasm). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm tired of all this cry wolf crap from people like you. The game hasn't ended, it's still here, and will be long after you give yourself a heart attack for jumping to conclusions before updates has even been put in to play. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sounds to me you have alot of anomisty for those who succeed where you don't or are to ignorant to learn. Talking about super guilds and how their changing things just for raiders. *rolls eyes*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all i get is blah blah blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>go cry to momma not here on the boards when you obviously don't have a clue!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'd like to know what game you are playing because it doesn't seem to match the one I am...  Crafted better than dropped?  Only cobalt and that is being nerfed back to t5 range (on test is is no better mit wise than ebon).  We are not 'gaining' mastercrafted, we are being dropped to it...  OUR LEDGENDARY STUFF IS GETTING NERFED (for those who don't seem to get that fact), it was going to be considered TREASURED, you know...  common drop range here...</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our gear is sub par to what can be gotten on solo common drops, our 'master crafted' (which is a joke and makes it easier to filter out in the broker) will be less than rare drop goods at all times and less than some common group drops.  Forget selling stuff, it will be crap.  Forget selling it to a vendor, because all you'll get is fuel.</P> <P>Open your eyes people, look at this for what it is.  It is the continuation of a stupid choice made 6 months after release when they removed interdependency.  It is a cave in to raiders who can't accept that someone who doesn't waste their bloody life away in some pathetic instance in some super guild can get respectable gear.  It is a complete and total thumb to the nose for anyone who wants to be a honest and dedicated crafter.  It is the apex of the dirt digger comment.  Only problem is, apparently some of you have your heads so far in the sand that you can't see it for digging in the dirt.</P> <P>pathetic.</P> <P>Message Edited by Raston on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:06 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>All I have to say is look in the mirror when you say pathetic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You were obviously around when the cross-skill books were made. I bet you ANYTHING you still made coin. When the combat changes were done, you were probably one screaming that this is the end! This is the END! Your still here! Still gaining levels...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I'll say this from the cheap seats newb "IF YOU THINK YOU CAN DO BETTER...GO AND DO IT!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People like you who flame other's because of your own ignorance, can't see past the tunnel vision you created for yourself. All you see is nerf nerf nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game has gone through so many changes since launch, and each time a major change came up, people like you cryed it's going to ruin the game, they are caving into raiders, they are giving into the soler's, blah blah blah.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you can see past your ignorance, you see this game is in fact STILL here!! Even with these changes where it was predicted by our elostrious and all knowing gamers (<sarcasm).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm tired of all this cry wolf crap from people like you. The game hasn't ended, it's still here, and will be long after you give yourself a heart attack for jumping to conclusions before updates has even been put in to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sounds to me you have alot of anomisty for those who succeed where you don't or are to ignorant to learn. Talking about super guilds and how their changing things just for raiders. *rolls eyes*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all i get is blah blah blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>go cry to momma not here on the boards when you obviously don't have a clue!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh, I have a clue the writing is very plain.  I'm sorry you refuse to read it.  I dont' think this will be the end of EQ, most likely the end of my enjoyment of the game though.  I do believe they intend to 'eliminate meaningful crafting' from the game.  I do believe this is the continuation of what I consider an idiot change back when they removed sub combines and to answer your obvious know it all mentality, no, I have not ever previously complained that anything was the end of the game and this wont be either.</P> <P>I started at release, but due to some IRL issues I had to leave for a bit.  I missed the combat revamp, but to be honest, I don't have much issue with it, it was relatively minor and addressed some much needed bugs/issues.  I came back this past december to play again.  I was most disappointed in the removal of interdependency, but I didn't let it stop me from enjoying the game because I could still make some gear that was at least desirable.</P> <P>No, I've never made mega coin, I prefer to price my stuff reasonably and I charge respectfully with what I'm making, hell I've had people tell me I don't charge enough and over pay me and refuse to take it back!  I've never been a crafter to make coin (as you so obviously believe) I am a crafter to make gear that people WANT to use and after this LU, I will not be able to do that any more because nothing I can make will be worth the time and effort of the NEW system to make.  Hell, I can't even vendor it for a small (2-5%) profit anymore.</P> <P>And yes, cobalt is being nerfed because the raiders complained that their people actually wanted to buy cobalt over staying in their T5 fabled...  they were upset because they wanted to move UP a tier in gear and that a tier lower should have been better than the best crafted gear in the game...  welp, guess they got it, now didn't they?</P> <P>We got what many of us asked for, it just had a cost that only a few were bright enough to see.  Like I said, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.<BR></P>

[JamesRay]

<P>You all should consider carefully tossing around the word "idiot" when responding to a person's opinion that you happen to disagree with.  Sometimes they have an idea that is valid, sometimes they don't, and other times they simply are failing to illustrate it appropriately.  In this case I believe the latter of the three.  While I agree the result of these changes will adversely affect values in the marketplace, I disagree that the changes should be rolled back.</P> <P>"<FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3399cc size=3>Let us not forget competition is good for business, so please stop the whining now."</FONT></P>A flood of new competition is good for *consumers*, not necessarily for business.  If a corner of the market is currently being pushed about by 6-7 players, with, lets say, a 2 silver markup on an item, and suddenly the market triples and there are multiple persons selling their items for just above vendor price (which is common for a person trying to power through levels), *business* is not necessarily good for those who are actually trying to "eke out a living" so to speak (IE tradeskilling is their primary source of income).  You want a good example of this already in place? On my server T7 alchemists appear to be in great supply.  Since T7 potions are so easy to craft, they sell for next to nothing compared to the cost to create them, simply because everybody is making them and want to get them sold.  Wow, business is real great there.  Spend a few minutes of your time as a T7 crafter to rake in that silver! Of course persons who whine about markups typically don't give your TS skill level or time committed to crafting any monetary value at all.<BR><BR>Now, in cases where you're dealing with specialized items such as a specific adept 3 spell, etc, you may see lower profit margins due to more players deciding to craft them on their own (and typically spells due better with profit margins in general because there are so many different ones to choose from).  Again, the winner here is the consumer.  Just because there are two to three times more people producing items does not suddenly "force" demand to grow...the overall value of items simply declines, and while more of them may end up being sold, they are being sold for less, and the demand will be met faster. <BR><BR>In my opinion, this is simply SOE's way of saying "tradeskilling was never intended to be a primary source of entertainment or income, so we're going to nerf your products, making them less valueable, while at the same time, making them *MUCH* easier to produce by the common player."<BR><BR>In the end, they are playing to their majority of subscribers, IE Joe Q. Adventurer who thinks paying a few gold over cost for a level 50-something spell is highway robbery.  I would imagine there will still be those too lazy to TS even after the LU.  But typically those will be the ones that are too busy making money adventuring to care about a markup that can be paid for in a few minutes of fighting.<BR><BR>In the end, though I have a couple of 70 crafters myself, I'm very thankful I have a lvl 70 adventurer, because I predict there will consistently be persons at all levels wanting to unload items near cost for the sake of moving on or making space in their overstocked vaults amongst the plethora of competition, especially now that the items are much easier to create.<BR><BR>Cheers to the adventurers, you've got a win-win here.  Pick up TSing yourself if you'd like, it's easier than ever!<BR>Or not, because the deflated markup you'll end up paying is in no way near equal to the amount of effort you'd make doing it yourself!

[Hukklebuk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:No subcombines is good; I disagree with the OP about that. However, nerfing tradeskill products is bad. As it is, common tradeskill items are garbage only suitable for tradeskill level grinding, and rare ones are barely comparable to common treasured loot.<hr></blockquote>I agree JooneauI like no subcombines... is it really going to lead to a flooded market as some are worried?  Not by a long shot, and why, because the crafted gear isn't going to be worth making a lot of.   People will still get orders when folks crack a new tier, but that will probably be it, if it's even that.So let's break it down and see who's going to have what left to sell:  (keep in mind a fair profit, not gouging or 5cp)Tailor :         hex dolls Alchemist :  Fighter CA's of adept III only, Poisons and Potions Provisioner:  Everything that sold beforeWoodwooker: TotemsCarpenter: BoxesArmorsmith: Imbued rare BP's and legsWeaponsmith: Imbued rare weaponsSage: Caster adept III'sJeweler: rare jewelry and Scout adept III'sforgive me if I mixed up woodworker and carpenter, I never bothered making one of either..... yet.So all told, that looks like about it that will remain mildly profitable...Now keep in mind, I really like the no subcombine stuff, but nerfing the crafted gear/items is a garbage move imo.Raid gear and rare loot should always be better than crafted?  mmm not *all* the time but 95% of the time yes.  Case in point - Grandmaster crafted gear from EQ1 DoN Expansion.  Better than some raid gear at the level, but  there was a lot more raid targets available to that level than there is here.  so  /shrug   why not let someone have an incredibly long shot at harvesting something that could be made into something dang good.  I don't care if it's a rare fish sandwhich.  Crafting needs to have a purpose and a chance to be able to make something folks will <b>want to buy</b>.  Or at least look at and say wow that's nearly as good as my raid gear.Now ... easy raiders, I'm one of you...  I'm not calling for a mass influx of items.  I say make the harvest that could be used much rarer than rares were at launch... AND make the recipe a long quest, soloable by any class, but long..... very very long.  That way when we all see that fantastic crafted item we can all go... 'dang man someone actually did the quest and found the rare.... sweet!'Crafting isn't going to die, but man the itemization nerf stinks.but I digress....so, thoughts on what's going to be left to sell?</div>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div>Problem is Jooneau, they are linked.  You can't have quality goods that are easy to produce.  This isn't a have your cake and eat it too, there has to be a give point and thanks to those who want it, we got what we bloody deserved.</div><div>Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.</div><div>(and yes, I am beginning to really become...  cynical about this)</div><hr></blockquote>I don't think they are connected in the way that you think.Subcombines made sense in a tradeskill system with artisan class interdependency; it's how they made interdependency happen. It makes no sense when everything is being done by one crafter unless those subcombines are useful products in their own right, like for some provisioner recipes. Since they have gotten rid of interdependency, getting rid of subcombines is the right thing to do.The reduction in quality of tradeskill goods has little to do with the difficulty of the artisan leveling and production process, aka getting rid of subcombines. It has to do with rare tradeskill products being (a) tradeable and (b) made from easily acquired ingredients. By easily acquired, I meant that it didn't require you to do anything more difficult than visit a broker and buy the rare harvest from somebody.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 PM</span>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Problem is Jooneau, they are linked.  You can't have quality goods that are easy to produce.  This isn't a have your cake and eat it too, there has to be a give point and thanks to those who want it, we got what we bloody deserved.</DIV><BR> <DIV>Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.</DIV><BR> <DIV>(and yes, I am beginning to really become...  cynical about this)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I don't think they are connected in the way that you think.<BR><BR>Subcombines made sense in a tradeskill system with artisan class interdependency; it's how they made interdependency happen. It makes no sense when everything is being done by one crafter unless those subcombines are useful products in their own right, like for some provisioner recipes. Since they have gotten rid of interdependency, getting rid of subcombines is the right thing to do.<BR><BR>The reduction in quality of tradeskill goods has little to do with the difficulty of the artisan leveling and production process, aka getting rid of subcombines. It has to do with rare tradeskill products being (a) tradeable and (b) made from easily acquired ingredients. By easily acquired, I meant that it didn't require you to do anything more difficult than visit a broker and buy the rare harvest from somebody. <P>Message Edited by Jooneau on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:55 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And I believe that this going to no subcombines is the result of having (what I consider to be an idiotic decision by the devs) removed interdependency.  I will agree that the speed of leveling is a factor, but I disagree with teh purchase part, you had to 'earn' the money somewhere to buy the rare in the first place, so you were taking risks in even purchasing it.  So I wouldn't put that at easily aquired, I was well into my 40s before I even bought my first rare from the broker and that was because I had gotten the money with an adventurer character of mine that that could make the money to do that.</P> <P>I think they took the removal of subcombines too far, some where flat out atroucious...  but the removal of interdependency was the first step to the march we have taken and in my opinion, it was the wrong step.</P>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Hukklebuk wrote:Crafting isn't going to die, but man the itemization nerf stinks.but I digress....so, thoughts on what's going to be left to sell?<hr></blockquote>The problem with legendary and fabled tradeskill products isn't with how difficult you make it to obtain the recipe or ingredients. It's that once you've made it, anybody can buy it. I don't think the raiders would be upset if their guild's artisans were able to craft useful items out of raid drops, but they have a legitimate problem with casuals being able to get gear comparable to the items they worked hard to get while raiding.I like the idea of putting in quests to reward adventurers who also practiced tradeskills. They did this with a couple heritage quests this expansion pack. However, it will have a backlash of angering adventurers who don't practice tradeskills and who will feel cheated out of being able to do these quests. Sony's mistake here wasn't in putting these quests in but in making them heritage quests, especially considering that they made the tradeskill requirements on the original set of heritage quests trivial (level 9).

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hukklebuk wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>No subcombines is good; I disagree with the OP about that. However, nerfing tradeskill products is bad. As it is, common tradeskill items are garbage only suitable for tradeskill level grinding, and rare ones are barely comparable to common treasured loot.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree Jooneau<BR><BR>I like no subcombines... is it really going to lead to a flooded market as some are worried?  Not by a long shot, and why, because the crafted gear isn't going to be worth making a lot of.   People will still get orders when folks crack a new tier, but that will probably be it, if it's even that.<BR><BR>So let's break it down and see who's going to have what left to sell:  (keep in mind a fair profit, not gouging or 5cp)<BR><BR>Tailor :         hex dolls <BR>Alchemist :  Fighter CA's of adept III only, Poisons and Potions <BR>Provisioner:  Everything that sold before<BR>Woodwooker: Totems<BR>Carpenter: Boxes<BR>Armorsmith: Imbued rare BP's and legs<BR>Weaponsmith: Imbued rare weapons<BR>Sage: Caster adept III's<BR>Jeweler: rare jewelry and Scout adept III's<BR><BR><BR><BR>forgive me if I mixed up woodworker and carpenter, I never bothered making one of either..... yet.<BR><BR>So all told, that looks like about it that will remain mildly profitable...<BR><BR>Now keep in mind, I really like the no subcombine stuff, but nerfing the crafted gear/items is a garbage move imo.<BR><BR>Raid gear and rare loot should always be better than crafted?  mmm not *all* the time but 95% of the time yes.  Case in point - Grandmaster crafted gear from EQ1 DoN Expansion.  Better than some raid gear at the level, but  there was a lot more raid targets available to that level than there is here.  so  /shrug   why not let someone have an incredibly long shot at harvesting something that could be made into something dang good.  I don't care if it's a rare fish sandwhich.  Crafting needs to have a purpose and a chance to be able to make something folks will <B>want to buy</B>.  Or at least look at and say wow that's nearly as good as my raid gear.<BR><BR>Now ... easy raiders, I'm one of you...  I'm not calling for a mass influx of items.  I say make the harvest that could be used much rarer than rares were at launch... AND make the recipe a long quest, soloable by any class, but long..... very very long.  That way when we all see that fantastic crafted item we can all go... 'dang man someone actually did the quest and found the rare.... sweet!'<BR><BR>Crafting isn't going to die, but man the itemization nerf stinks.<BR><BR>but I digress....<BR><BR>so, thoughts on what's going to be left to sell?<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Armorer isn't going to have much to sell...  even the rare imbued bps and legs are hardly worth the cost (which won't change much) to make compared to what you can get hunting now.  And as they continue to revamp the zones and increase the quality of the drops as they go, there will be less and less need for armorers.  Weaponsmiths too (they even lost their arrows and throwing weapons in this)</P> <P>As far as those believing that EoF will be the 'god send' of crafting, I have this to say.  I'll believe it when I see it.  This dev team doesn't like crafters, they short change the style with a single dev who is running so far behind that he finally released recipes that were due 9 months ago.  They are systematically destroying this part of the game and you believe they are looking to save it in an expansion? <rolls eyes>  Really think about it before you answer.</P>

[Rashaak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh, I have a clue the writing is very plain.  I'm sorry you refuse to read it.  I dont' think this will be the end of EQ, most likely the end of my enjoyment of the game though.  I do believe they intend to 'eliminate meaningful crafting' from the game.  I do believe this is the continuation of what I consider an idiot change back when they removed sub combines and to answer your obvious know it all mentality, no, I have not ever previously complained that anything was the end of the game and this wont be either.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I started at release, but due to some IRL issues I had to leave for a bit.  I missed the combat revamp, but to be honest, I don't have much issue with it, it was relatively minor and addressed some much needed bugs/issues.  I came back this past december to play again.  I was most disappointed in the removal of interdependency, but I didn't let it stop me from enjoying the game because I could still make some gear that was at least desirable.</P> <P>No, I've never made mega coin, I prefer to price my stuff reasonably and I charge respectfully with what I'm making, hell I've had people tell me I don't charge enough and over pay me and refuse to take it back!  I've never been a crafter to make coin (as you so obviously believe) I am a crafter to make gear that people WANT to use and after this LU, I will not be able to do that any more because nothing I can make will be worth the time and effort of the NEW system to make.  Hell, I can't even vendor it for a small (2-5%) profit anymore.</P> <P>And yes, cobalt is being nerfed because the raiders complained that their people actually wanted to buy cobalt over staying in their T5 fabled...  they were upset because they wanted to move UP a tier in gear and that a tier lower should have been better than the best crafted gear in the game...  welp, guess they got it, now didn't they?</P> <P>We got what many of us asked for, it just had a cost that only a few were bright enough to see.  Like I said, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay...if you took a break from the game, then you really have no voice. I'm sorry to say it, but you simply don't understand at all.</P> <P><BR>I'm not a raider, i'm not a full time gamer, i'm casual and only afford a few hours per week to this game, so I obviously am not in it for the mass amount of coin you can get. I make a decent living at my craft, but by no means am I the greatest at it. </P> <P><BR>Interpendency was a pain...when someone would charge you 20 flippin gold for a Resin! Yes a simple Resin!! The way interpendency was exploited it had to be changed (or in a word you can understand 'nerfed'). </P> <P><BR>I really want to try to understand your logic? Someone goes and kills an EPIC dragon and recieves an item from that dragons treasure cove, your telling me that item can not POSSiBLY be better than something you are able to craft?! What are you? A god?? Epics are epics for a reason! If a group kills this named giant in the Thunderring Steppes...the item dropped from that named shouldn't be better than what you can craft? Seriosly? </P> <P><BR>There's still going to be a market for crafted/master crafted items. Some won't be able to afford that 'legendary' or 'fabled' item, or even that 'treasured' item. Some will still rather be wearing a uniformed appearance rather than be mismatched. There will still be a market, whether it grows larger or smaller. </P> <P><BR>You were gone for atleast a good 9 months of changes, the game you came back to was not the game you started playing. It's okay to voice your opinion, but when you openly flame people for their opinion then you really have no flippin clue. If you don't have a toon on test, testing these apparent drastic and class/craft killing changes then you have no way...i'll repeat from the cheap seats again "NO WAY!" of knowing how this will affect (whether negative or positive) the market for crafters.</P> <P><BR>You can not put raiders into the same category as a casual gamer. A casual gamer will have to play four times as long before being able to dress up in all Fabled gear. The common adventurer will always be one level below that of raider. They are completely TWO different animals, and it even show's in their overall play style. </P> <P><BR>But even raiders need crafters. They still need some one to make their adept 3's, poisons, potions, repair kits, food/drink, and accesories (rings, hex dolls) to name a few. <BR></P>

[Hukklebuk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:<blockquote><hr>Hukklebuk wrote:Crafting isn't going to die, but man the itemization nerf stinks.but I digress....so, thoughts on what's going to be left to sell?<hr></blockquote>The problem with legendary and fabled tradeskill products isn't with how difficult you make it to obtain the recipe or ingredients. It's that once you've made it, anybody can buy it. I don't think the raiders would be upset if their guild's artisans were able to craft useful items out of raid drops, but they have a legitimate problem with casuals being able to get gear comparable to the items they worked hard to get while raiding.<hr></blockquote>Well, I do agree but only to a point.  I do raid, and no I don't think crafted should be as good, but it can be close and it wouldn't bother me.  Why not let each crafting class get one thing they can make from a super rare harvest?  The item doesn't have to be raid quality, and the recipe could even be for a previous tier item, but require the current tier skills to make.  (just throwing out ideas here)And believe me when I say make the quest to get the recipe very very long, I'm thinking along the lines of Claymore done four times over.  And the rare item harvest, how about 1/1000 or even 1/10000 the chance of a regular rare.  Crafters need something to look to, and right now there isn't much.  EoF,  doubt it brings much either.But Jooneau if you raid t7 would it bother you that much if someone had one piece of something that came close to a t6 raid drop that took someone an incredible amount of time to be able to make just one of?  I don't see it bothering me, I think it would be nice to see items like that.I can't believve they put all of this on one person's shoulders to figure out.... I'd get a new job if I were him.</div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh, I have a clue the writing is very plain.  I'm sorry you refuse to read it.  I dont' think this will be the end of EQ, most likely the end of my enjoyment of the game though.  I do believe they intend to 'eliminate meaningful crafting' from the game.  I do believe this is the continuation of what I consider an idiot change back when they removed sub combines and to answer your obvious know it all mentality, no, I have not ever previously complained that anything was the end of the game and this wont be either.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I started at release, but due to some IRL issues I had to leave for a bit.  I missed the combat revamp, but to be honest, I don't have much issue with it, it was relatively minor and addressed some much needed bugs/issues.  I came back this past december to play again.  I was most disappointed in the removal of interdependency, but I didn't let it stop me from enjoying the game because I could still make some gear that was at least desirable.</P> <P>No, I've never made mega coin, I prefer to price my stuff reasonably and I charge respectfully with what I'm making, hell I've had people tell me I don't charge enough and over pay me and refuse to take it back!  I've never been a crafter to make coin (as you so obviously believe) I am a crafter to make gear that people WANT to use and after this LU, I will not be able to do that any more because nothing I can make will be worth the time and effort of the NEW system to make.  Hell, I can't even vendor it for a small (2-5%) profit anymore.</P> <P>And yes, cobalt is being nerfed because the raiders complained that their people actually wanted to buy cobalt over staying in their T5 fabled...  they were upset because they wanted to move UP a tier in gear and that a tier lower should have been better than the best crafted gear in the game...  welp, guess they got it, now didn't they?</P> <P>We got what many of us asked for, it just had a cost that only a few were bright enough to see.  Like I said, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay...if you took a break from the game, then you really have no voice. I'm sorry to say it, but you simply don't understand at all.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So over a year in game doesn't entitle me to a voice?  Sorry, wrong.  I leveled as a crafter back then and I'm still playing that same crafter and he is only 55, I'm not a power gamer by any stretch of the imagination either, I still prefer interdependency.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I'm not a raider, i'm not a full time gamer, i'm casual and only afford a few hours per week to this game, so I obviously am not in it for the mass amount of coin you can get. I make a decent living at my craft, but by no means am I the greatest at it. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Neither am I.  I play maybe 15-20 hours a week, including weekend, some days I dont' log in at all.  That was one of the reasons I had to take some time off.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Interpendency was a pain...when someone would charge you 20 flippin gold for a Resin! Yes a simple Resin!! The way interpendency was exploited it had to be changed (or in a word you can understand 'nerfed'). </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I will admit that there was far too much emphasis put on the alchemist, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water either.  A few tweaks and it could have been a great system.  Throw in some consumables that could be used to level that needed noone else and bam, you're set.  Add a quest system that would have provided materials for a 'special' recipe that was needed for your town and bam, you're still set.  It was doable, they just took the easy road.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I really want to try to understand your logic? Someone goes and kills an EPIC dragon and recieves an item from that dragons treasure cove, your telling me that item can not POSSiBLY be better than something you are able to craft?! What are you? A god?? Epics are epics for a reason! If a group kills this named giant in the Thunderring Steppes...the item dropped from that named shouldn't be better than what you can craft? Seriosly? </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And I supposed that epic piece of armor is just so naturally going to fit you?  The sword is going to be the perfect length, the book written in a language you can understand?  I've always believe there should be dependence both ways.  People want the best gear, they should have to work with ALL aspects of the game, not just be good at one.</FONT></P> <P><BR>There's still going to be a market for crafted/master crafted items. Some won't be able to afford that 'legendary' or 'fabled' item, or even that 'treasured' item. Some will still rather be wearing a uniformed appearance rather than be mismatched. There will still be a market, whether it grows larger or smaller. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Nope, no market.  Gear is going to be basically worthless.  Who is going to want to spend 1-2 plat for a piece of armor they can camp common spawns to get better for free?  Hell, I don't even want to do that and I make the stuff.</FONT></P> <P><BR>You were gone for atleast a good 9 months of changes, the game you came back to was not the game you started playing. It's okay to voice your opinion, but when you openly flame people for their opinion then you really have no flippin clue. If you don't have a toon on test, testing these apparent drastic and class/craft killing changes then you have no way...i'll repeat from the cheap seats again "NO WAY!" of knowing how this will affect (whether negative or positive) the market for crafters.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I do have a toon on test, not a high one, but I do have one.  I've been reading stuff from a large number of posters and just happen to be the tradeskill officer from my guild.  Yes, I was gone for 8 months, but I've also played a year as well.  I have experience all three versions now, I think that puts me in a pretty good position to make said argument.  Probably better since I'm not bitter over any other changes that might have happened while I was gone.  I've been following this since I heard about it, as I said, I'm the tradeskill officer of my guild, I am the one who has to stay informed to recommend to others what they should do.</FONT></P> <P><BR>You can not put raiders into the same category as a casual gamer. A casual gamer will have to play four times as long before being able to dress up in all Fabled gear. The common adventurer will always be one level below that of raider. They are completely TWO different animals, and it even show's in their overall play style. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>except that it is being sold on the broker for cheaper than rares.  I've seen master Is cheaper than adept IIIs.  And I've done both raids and casual, and I prefer casual, but even then, the common drop stuff in KoS is better than the rare Xegonite armor and it doesn't take a raid to get.  Tell me again how crafting is to remain a valid playstyle?</FONT></P> <P><BR>But even raiders need crafters. They still need some one to make their adept 3's, poisons, potions, repair kits, food/drink, and accesories (rings, hex dolls) to name a few. <BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why, master Is are dropping like wild fire and adept Is are just as good for many and a good deal cheaper too.  I'll agree on the poisons, foods, hex dolls, but weaponsmiths, armorers are going to be out in the cold.  There will be little point in being one.  Carpenters get a small boost with some new recipes.  Weaponsmiths are losing recipes (their consumables) and armorers will have little reason to make anything other than to get the bloody "I leveled to 70 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"...  Oh wait, the nerfed teh shirt too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[IpigPiachoep]

<DIV>I'm excited for the no subcombines, now I'll have more room in my bank! This morning I sold all my hilts, edges, pommels, spikes and  crossguards for all tiers and i'm almost 10 plat richer because of it. I'm still not gonna sell any weapons but now i'm going to dust of my Woodworker Jeweler and Scholar and level them up, all due to the simple fact that I don't have to make subcombines.  This will drive down prices and balance the economy more imho. I think people are upset is because they won't have the market cornered anymore and that can't charge the exhorbent prices like in the past. Saying that people who are for the no subcombines aren't really crafters are being elitest. Who are you to say who is a real crafter and who isn't? I thought this game was supposed to be fun? Well let me tell you that subcombines however cool they appear in the begining  get old real fast and like someone mentioned before this is the only part of LU 24 I support.</DIV>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IpigPiachoep wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm excited for the no subcombines, now I'll have more room in my bank! This morning I sold all my hilts, edges, pommels, spikes and  crossguards for all tiers and i'm almost 10 plat richer because of it. I'm still not gonna sell any weapons but now i'm going to dust of my Woodworker Jeweler and Scholar and level them up, all due to the simple fact that I don't have to make subcombines.  This will drive down prices and balance the economy more imho. I think people are upset is because they won't have the market cornered anymore and that can't charge the exhorbent prices like in the past. Saying that people who are for the no subcombines aren't really crafters are being elitest. Who are you to say who is a real crafter and who isn't? I thought this game was supposed to be fun? Well let me tell you that subcombines however cool they appear in the begining  get old real fast and like someone mentioned before this is the only part of LU 24 I support.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I never looked to corner the market, I could care less really on that side...  My level 55 armor has less than a plat to his name.  I DO NOT SELL FOR PROFIT (for any who missed it the first time).  I sell to get enjoyment out of others using my gear, needing my gear and wanting my gear.  I enjoy believing that my gear might have helped them survive an encounter they wouldn't have in their old gear.  I don't enjoy knowing that any random drop will turn it into vendor fodder.  If I had wanted that, I would have sold it to the vendor in the first place.

[Obadiah]

<DIV>I ask again . . . which do you prefer for your 30-something Swashbuckler:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center>+14 Str, +14 Agi, +10 Health, +5 Power, 20.2 Damage Rating</DIV> <P align=center>or</P> <P align=center>+10 Str, +4 Agi, +24 Health, +28 Power, 21.3 Damage Rating</P> <P>It's not a massive nerf. It's a massive realignment that makes a lot of crafted items make a lot more sense. My 40-something Tailor and Carpenter have been waiting for this change for a long time. </P> <P>The revamped armor with reduced mitigation (but a lot more Stamina) doesn't totally suck for tanks even. Is it the best armor you can get in the tier - <STRONG>no</STRONG>! I for one found it somewhat anticlimactic hiting 30, putting on full feysteel . . . and then never having a drop that was better than my armor. Repeat for t5. Repeat for t6 until some of the later instances. That's the problem they're addressing. </P> <P>Is it worthless? <STRONG>Of course not</STRONG>. As has already been stated elsewhere, non-tank armor/robes are <STRONG>all improved</STRONG>. I would opine that anything you could tank in today's cobalt you can tank in tomorrow's. I'll let someone else invest the ore in proving or disproving that. :smileytongue:</P> <P>I'll say this again too. As a crafter (and a Necro, which is another story) I think this change rocks. </P>

[Rast]

<P>I'd prefer the second one myself...  more health, more power, more damage...  but then, I play a tank, so I need though...  Agi does me little good <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I can tell you that rare armor is taking a major hit and that can't be denied...  And that was the only thing we had that even remotely compared to rare drops...</P> <P>Now tell me something?  Would you rather pay 4 plat for a piece of xegonite or just camp until you got the awakened armor?  I think you will find that the awakened armor will win every time.</P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 PM</span>

[Obadiah]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Raston wrote:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>"armorers will have little reason to make anything other than to get the bloody "I leveled to 70 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"..."</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I've asked my guild's Armorer to make me a full suit of non-rare armor for my 32 Defiler, some feyiron pieces for my 30 Troubador and some cobalt pieces for my 54 Swashie. I specifically asked him to wait until AFTER the change to do so since the post-LU24 items are now <STRONG>better</STRONG> suited for those classes.</FONT></P> <P>I have similar requests for some tier 5 cloth pieces from my Tailor. </P>

[Rast]

<DIV>I will not disagree that current rare chain is better than future rare chain, but it will still be worse than drops at t7.  Xegonite armor sucks, sorry, but it does.  It is exceptionally expensive and is not even as good as the awakened set, why would anyone pay 4pp for it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would anyone go and get a t3 set of armor when they have the AQs?  Why would they get a T4 set of leather or plate when you have the two leather quests and orcs that drop plate left and right.  Again, the common gear that we have to level on is crap.  The rares will not be worth anything compared to drops.</DIV>

[Rast]

<P>btw, did you even see the images of what they did to the cobalt vanguard???  the chest piece was just 4 mit over my current ebon vanguard piece...  I think it was figured that a tank buying their cobalt now, would save themselves almost 350 points in mitigation over the new armor...  That is a BIG change...</P> <P>Oh, and you are paying for those stat increases in more than mitigation, you are losing resists as well.  It is going to be the perfect inline to t7...  Again, it isn't suitable for tanking.</P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[Annis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would anyone go and get a t3 set of armor when they have the AQs? <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Not everyone does the AQs.  I have an armorcrafter who currently makes (when I can be bothered to actually craft with her) T3 plate and chainmail armor.  My sets (non-rare, mind you) are completely sold out within a day or two.  Will this change after the update?  Maybe, but it's doubtful it will be to doomsday extremes.  But perhaps (you never know) I will never sell a single piece of armor again.  Personally, I'll wait until that actually happens before I scream bloody murder on the boards.<BR>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Here's what I see from the whole change:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pros:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Crafters can just make the finalize product now, enabling them a faster chance to sell them on the market and sell it.</LI> <LI>Casual crafters can make things faster. Most of the time spent crafting now is spent on making sub-combines more than making the finalized product.</LI> <LI>Fuel costs: Final combines are being given an increased fuel cost, the number relative to the tier. For the first 4-5 tiers, this means spending less money to make the final product on fuels compaired to what it is now. For example, in carpentry, EVERY PIECE OF FURNITURE requires an absolute bare minimum of 9 fuels to make the subcombines and then the final product itself.</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>Cons:</P> <OL> <LI>Stuff costs more. By removing the subcombines, they are putting more fuel requirements onto the final products. The amount of fuel needed is relative to the tier, so Tier 7 requires more fuel than tier 4. For Tier 6 and 7, this means sometimes spending more money on fuel than currently needed to make all the subcombines and the final product.</LI> <LI> <P>Sub-combines are easier to make than the final product. In relation to number 2, It's a faster process and more beneficial way of gaining experience by grinding out sub-combines in a matter of seconds, compaired to spending minutes and lots of power trying to make a much more difficult final product.</P></LI> <LI> <P>By letting players spend more time making the final products, this lets players flood the market with useless, lesser used, and undesired weapons, spells, furnitures, armors, etc, on the market. Supply starts to outweigh demand. Prices start dropping drastically, as players only choose to buy this or that when they want, and for the most part, not everyone is going to want that item.</P></LI> <LI> <P>Removing sub-combines removes the chance for crafters to take advantage of leveling and benefiting from the XP Bonus recieved from the first time you make a Pristine combine.</P></LI></OL> <P>As a carpenter, I was always able to make my way through the first 2-3 levels after reaching the next tier just by benefiting off the XP bonus for making Pristine Wood Dowels, Lumber, Planed Lumber, Staves, Paper, Metal Studs, Bars, Struts, Spikes, Hooks, Plates, Sheets, Rings, Arrows, Pommels, Hammer Heads, Edges, Buckles, Chain Links, Shods, Crossguards, Gem Ornaments, Gem Sheets, Gem Settings, Faceted Gems, Fletchings, Threads, Patterns, Padding, Bowstrings, Leather Bindings, Hide Plates, Leather Cords, Leather Straps, Leather Harnesses, Hilts, Cloths, Quills, Turned Lumber, Dyes, Oils, Resins, Washes, Tempers, Reagants, Glass, Poison Vials, Inks and other various things from using Thaumateurgy, Geomancy, Woodcraft, Weaving, and even my own Carpentry skills.</P> <P>THAT IS A LOT OF BONUS XP TO LEVEL OFF OF! That is a lot of potential bonus XP being removed from the game.</P> <P> </P>

[Calthine]

Att he time I did the AQ's, T3 rare crafted was better.  And even given the extreme rarity of the rares, it was easier to obtain in my playtime.

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Annis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would anyone go and get a t3 set of armor when they have the AQs? <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Not everyone does the AQs.  I have an armorcrafter who currently makes (when I can be bothered to actually craft with her) T3 plate and chainmail armor.  My sets (non-rare, mind you) are completely sold out within a day or two.  Will this change after the update?  Maybe, but it's doubtful it will be to doomsday extremes.  But perhaps (you never know) I will never sell a single piece of armor again.  Personally, I'll wait until that actually happens before I scream bloody murder on the boards.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is a rare person who doesn't do the AQs though...  Personally, I can't stand the AQs either, but being an armorer, I can make my own too...  After this change, I don't know if I will though, the armor simply will not be 'worth it' anymore...  Why would someone pay large money to buy feysteel, when they can get silviril for less?  Why would they buy xegonite when they can get the awakened armor? (short of the fact that a male barb should NEVER be caught in pink <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  Fulginate was a decent seller, but without the resists, why would someone want it?</P> <P>One fortunate thing is, on the common armors, mit is not taking a hit.<BR></P>

[Pullo]

<DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Annis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would anyone go and get a t3 set of armor when they have the AQs? <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Not everyone does the AQs.  I have an armorcrafter who currently makes (when I can be bothered to actually craft with her) T3 plate and chainmail armor.  My sets (non-rare, mind you) are completely sold out within a day or two.  Will this change after the update?  Maybe, but it's doubtful it will be to doomsday extremes.  But perhaps (you never know) I will never sell a single piece of armor again.  Personally, I'll wait until that actually happens before I scream bloody murder on the boards.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Agreeing with Annis and responding to Raston,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can buy your way into a full set of AQ right at 20th level, no waiting to finish the quests.  You can wear regular T3 while doing the quests which makes the quests easier.  Some of the AQ pieces you're not likely to get into until a bit into the 20-29 range (specifically the last two pieces for heavy armor) which is particulalry true for the classes most dependent upon keeping their mitigation up to speed with mob damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, there is a market for T3 while not negating the value of AQ.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, the new system will have an impact on the crafting and economy, but overall it'll be good.  I've messed around with the new system quite a bit on Test (four mid-20's crafters and climbing).  On live servers my tolerance for crafting has been limited (low 30's Alchemist), it's never been a 'hard' system just a tedious one.  The tedium is gone in LU24.  It's going to be an interesting, and probably bumpy week or two for server economies, but the net change looks very promising.<BR></DIV></DIV>

[Rast]

<P>I do hope you are right, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it.</P> <P>I've made my own armor like that, but I can tell you that if I didn't have an armorer, I wouldn't go find one to make it myself...  I make it out of convience (I'm pretty convient to myself I hope <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), but that is the only reason (I didn't go looking for pieces for my first person who is the armorer when he couldn't make the armor yet.)</P>

[tbotus]

I am much more in love with the idea of a game that requires you to hunt for the good stuff, rather than one that requires you to farm rares and money to buy it from someone that lies incessantly about the cost of fuel.That and maybe the Asian plat farming community will dissipate a little bit when rares quit being so lucrative. Not trying to be controversial, but it's a huge problem on Mistmoore and Crushbone, to name a couple.--Raygo<div></div>

[Obadiah]

<P>Are you referring to Awakened Scaleguard? That doesn't touch Xegonite. Not even close. Sure, Awakened Scale<STRONG>lord</STRONG> stuff does for tanks, but  you aren't getting that at 62. And, uh, even if you do somehow you can't use it for several levels. :smileytongue: On my server Xegonite is 1P a cluster, sometimes a little less. I don't think I'd pay 4PP for it. That's crazy steep - particularly when the Cuirass of Protection can usually be had for 5 - 7. </P> <P>Last time I did the 20s - about a month ago - I couldn't find people working on the AQs. I did them all with my first toon, then no more than 3 or 4 with the rest. They aren't worth it by the time you're done, IMO. Especially since the 20s go by so much faster than in those days.</P> <P>Orc Marauder and that leather crap (Emerald Hide?) from the quests is comparable to non-rare crafted. Very similar in mitigation and stats. So . . . it would seem safe to assume the rare will still be better. </P> <P>I'll make up my resists with crafted Jewelry. And I have to by more than one piece for specific slots in order to do so. :smileysurprised: Darn crafters trying to rule the world again! Just go dig some dirt, will ya? :smileytongue:</P> <P>Going back to my feysteel leafblade comparison ... you chose the old version because you were a tank even though I asked the question as a Swashbuckler, since it's a scout-oriented weapon. :smileytongue: And honestly I can see arguments either way - which just means that neither version is crap. I don't see any appropriate feysteel screenies, but for a 1-hander I looked at the feyiron Battle Axe:</P> <P>Old: +3 Agi, +4 Wis, +3 Int, +16 Health, +21 Power, 20.3 Damage Rating</P> <P>New: +4 Str, +4 Agi, +5 Sta, 20.3 Damage Rating</P> <P>/shrug. It's again not a huge difference, but I'm going to lean toward the new version. </P> <P> </P>

[Rast]

<P>I'll have to check out the xegonite when I can craft it, I just know that too many others refuse to use it because the drops in KoS are better.  Our main tank wouldn't get Xegonite and is using the awakened stuff and trust me, he could have afforded the Xegonite (he was the only one in our guild to have full cobalt <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  What can I say, we are a small group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The other thing is, there have been several debates on t7 armor and for every 1 person who said it was better/cheaper, there were three or four with proof they were wrong...  It seems t7 armor drops like candy or something <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

<P>yes you will see more crafters.  i like to craft but the subcombines were killing me.  its not like the item im making is an artifact or anything.  it hsouldnt be this tedious for what you get.  ill craft alot more with this change.</P> <P>yes you will see more for sale.  this is a good thing.  variety is good.  go ahead..say it...variety is good.  very nice.  next time i go looking for imbued ebon sai's, i might actually find them instead of having to find a weaponsmith to make them.  there are alot of items no one makes, therefore making it appear no one wants them, again inforcing no one uses them so why make them.  its vicious, i know.  all that vendor trash might actually go to vendors now since good quality items will be plentiful on the broker.</P> <P>yes prices will fall....alot.  cry for me argentina.  price gouging is whats killing crafting.  how do you people sleep at night?  you finger the queen with your prices and have enough money to make solomon blush.  shame on you.</P> <P>cant wait for the change.</P>

[Finora]

<P>Xegonite goes both ways. I've gotten quite a few orders for xegonite pieces.  Some people use it as filler, some people use it to boost certain stats ( I did that myself, made 3 pieces for my mystic to boost wisdom because honestly cobalt sucked for a mystic). Recently made a full set for a paladin, a nice mix of vanguard and plate. I make a lot for scouts. I 've made quite a few pieces for berserkers and guardians as well, usually not full sets, but multiple pieces per order. A lot of these people were REPLACING KOS dropped armor with the xegonite. Xegonite was far superior to the scaleguard junk that drops in TT and sanctum for my class I know. It wasn't until I started doing some of the harder instances that I found some things that were good enough to replace it (Halls of Fate, Vaults).</P> <P>The real problem with xegonite is the rarity of it (just like spongy loams). It's pretty difficult to come buy unless you spend many hours harvesting (I've spend untold hours harvesting ore for my armorer and have harvested 1 xegonite ever), get lucky in a chest from an instance or farm collection pieces to get one. People charge ridiculous prices for it on the broker, and obviously someone's paying because they keep selling them for that price. A side note, whomever it was that said the 'just dig in the dirt' comment can bite me, they need to try it for a while.</P> <P>I imagine the same sort of thing will happen in other tiers as well. Some pieces of armor will sell better than others. Some (like boots in t5 because of Jboots/Eboots) will rarely sell at all. Some pieces will be quickly replaced with dropped armor, some will hang around longer. Something that would greatly help really would be for them to let us imbue all the chests and legs (still begging for that in feedbacks). </P> <P>The common armors, I can't say I'm a fan of some of the changes they've made to them, the dropping of resists in particular annoys me to no end, never have seen a good explaination for it. (the raiders need resists normal groupers don't thing is untrue). I don't know how many people will still want them, but I'm sure in lower levels people will be looking for something to get them through to the next, so with quick making I am sure I'll still be making some.</P> <P>As I said before, I'm still looking forward to the no subs.  My armorer will still have just as much business as I did before. I'm sure my other crafters will have even more since I'll be able to get their orders done faster. It's not the deathknell for crafting. Not even for weaponsmiths and armorers. Certainly not for the other classes. </P>

[Cynto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>btw, did you even see the images of what they did to the cobalt vanguard???  the chest piece was just 4 mit over my current ebon vanguard piece...  I think it was figured that a tank buying their cobalt now, would save themselves almost 350 points in mitigation over the new armor...  That is a BIG change...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Actually Raston, from my estimation (i reiterate, ESTIMATION, because I havn't seen all the screenshots and am going from what people said was on test at the time) Cobalt Vanguard plate is losing around 500 - 550 mitigation. The BP and Leggings alone are losing 97 mitigation EACH.</FONT></P> <P>Oh, and you are paying for those stat increases in more than mitigation, you are losing resists as well.  It is going to be the perfect inline to t7...  Again, it isn't suitable for tanking.</P> <P>Message Edited by Raston on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for the person saying that crafted legendary outclassed Fabled, I don't know what you're smoking, unless you mean that the Legendary crafted Cobalt from A FULL TEIR ABOVE the T5 Fabled was better. Which, if you ask me, SHOULD be the case, why in the holy heck should armor from the teir below be better than Legendary or higher ranked armor? Its level 40 equipable for crying out loud! And if you meant that Legendary crafted was better than armor in teirs 2 to 4, then i've got to ask you to point out all the raid mobs that would drop fabled. The problem in those teirs is not the armor, its the lack of raid mobs and Fabled gear, and, from all the revamps of the dungeons there was already Legendary/Fabled dropping that was better than our crafted now anyway.<BR></P>

[Cynto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarkin-Wretched wrote:<BR> <P>yes you will see more crafters.  i like to craft but the subcombines were killing me.  its not like the item im making is an artifact or anything.  it hsouldnt be this tedious for what you get.  ill craft alot more with this change.</P> <P>yes you will see more for sale.  this is a good thing.  variety is good.  go ahead..say it...variety is good.  very nice.  next time i go looking for imbued ebon sai's, i might actually find them instead of having to find a weaponsmith to make them.  there are alot of items no one makes, therefore making it appear no one wants them, again inforcing no one uses them so why make them.  its vicious, i know.  all that vendor trash might actually go to vendors now since good quality items will be plentiful on the broker.</P> <P>yes prices will fall....alot.  cry for me argentina.  price gouging is whats killing crafting.  how do you people sleep at night?  you finger the queen with your prices and have enough money to make solomon blush.  shame on you.</P> <P>cant wait for the change.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I swear, the next time someone tries to insinuate that ALL crafters are rich beyond belief without having ever crafted past level 20 or 30 is losing a limb or two. It infuriates me that just because a few crafters on SOME servers MIGHT have made some decent money, or because someone got screwed by a high level crafter at some point, that all of a sudden we're ALL the devil and trying to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you while stealing all your money.</P> <P>The fact remains, that as a crafter *I* personally never had more than 4 pp even in my richest Cobalt crafting heyday, and most of my friends who were crafters first, adventurers second were in the same position. Now that i've stopped crafting at around level 66 and just started adventuring, you would be amazed to know just how lucrative it is just dungeon crawling. I never crested 4pp as a crafter, but now I have well over 30 pp just from farming dungeon and instance mobs. I think you non crafters might be surprised at just how many of us have less money than you, and in many cases are darn near broke.</P> <P>It also amazes me how its all the crafters fault that armor prices on broker are out of control, when in fact most crafters only mark up what they bought and then made into armor by about 30g or less. Why don't you take a look at all those non crafters that are selling the rare harvests for 3pp + and THEN tell me my armor is overpriced at 3.3pp.</P> <P>Oh, and finally for whoever it was that said that crafting is going to be less tedious now and more people will craft... I'll believe that when I see it. Sure, for the first month they will, but you all seem to think that no subs = fun. Are you all on crack? They havn't sped up crafting, they just took out all the bonus exp and made it so you only have the long duration crafted items left. No one can skill up on quick, 30 sec or less to craft subs, its all 2+ minute items now, have fun.</P>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>btw, did you even see the images of what they did to the cobalt vanguard???  the chest piece was just 4 mit over my current ebon vanguard piece...  I think it was figured that a tank buying their cobalt now, would save themselves almost 350 points in mitigation over the new armor...  That is a BIG change...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Actually Raston, from my estimation (i reiterate, ESTIMATION, because I havn't seen all the screenshots and am going from what people said was on test at the time) Cobalt Vanguard plate is losing around 500 - 550 mitigation. The BP and Leggings alone are losing 97 mitigation EACH.</FONT></P> <P>Oh, and you are paying for those stat increases in more than mitigation, you are losing resists as well.  It is going to be the perfect inline to t7...  Again, it isn't suitable for tanking.</P> <P>Message Edited by Raston on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for the person saying that crafted legendary outclassed Fabled, I don't know what you're smoking, unless you mean that the Legendary crafted Cobalt from A FULL TEIR ABOVE the T5 Fabled was better. Which, if you ask me, SHOULD be the case, why in the holy heck should armor from the teir below be better than Legendary or higher ranked armor? Its level 40 equipable for crying out loud! And if you meant that Legendary crafted was better than armor in teirs 2 to 4, then i've got to ask you to point out all the raid mobs that would drop fabled. The problem in those teirs is not the armor, its the lack of raid mobs and Fabled gear, and, from all the revamps of the dungeons there was already Legendary/Fabled dropping that was better than our crafted now anyway.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is correct, I was thinking of the difference I was going to have on my pally as I had two of the pieces (chest and legs) already...  Fortunately, I found someone selling cobalt cheap about a week ago and managed to craft 2 more pieces for him <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>And no, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination...  My main crafter has all of 90g to his name and my adventurer about the same...  most of my money came from an investment in ebon my adventurer made in my crafter...  Even then, I managed to get 3 pieces of ebon for my Pally and 2 pieces of cobalt (the first two were a gift from teh guild leader)</P>

[Laralma]

<P>I don't play on Test, so the only information I have is what I have seen people post.  However, I think there is a chance that this isn't as big a nerf as people think it is.  Yes, T6 armor is getting nerfed because it is out-of-line with the publicly stated, desired progression, which is:  Fabled > Legendary > Rare Crafted > Treasured.  Other crafted items which are out-of-line with this progression may also get nerfed.  I am not positive what those items are, possibly some weapons?  Rings?</P> <P>For the lower tiers, it is not clear to me that there is much actual nerfing going on.  They are lowering resists on the lower tier armor, for example, but they are increasing stats.  People talk about how important resists are, but lots of legendary gear doesn't have as many resists as the rare crafted.  Furthermore, at the lower levels, resists may actually be less useful than stats, at least for most classes.</P> <P>In terms of whether tradeskilling is going to be a viable "profession" in the future, I personally think this has much less to do with how tedious the process of making something is, and much more to do with how valuable the items are that tradeskillers make.  If they are noticeably better than Treasured gear, then at least for the lower tiers, people will want it.  </P> <P>For T6 and T7, I do think there could be a problem.  It is possible that there are more Legendary and almost-Legendary treasured dropping, so people are not willing to pay a high price for crafted gear when other gear is so much easier to get.  The only solution I can think of to this is to make sure that rare crafted really is better than Treasured.</P> <P>Another possibility is that the desire for Adept III spells is driving up the market for rares.  In the lower tiers, almost no one bothers with Adept III spells, but in the upper tiers, they buy them.  The high price of spell rares makes other items that use these rares be more expensive.  That probably mostly affects jewelry, but I'm not certain.  Anyway, the way to solve that is to have different rares for spells and for other TS professions.  That way, the market for the spells will not drive the market for TS professions out of reach.</P> <P>Anyway, the bottom line is, don't panic.  Wait until the changes go live.  Then wait another month or two to let the market adjust to the changes.  Then, if there is still a problem, complain.  Hard as it is for some people to believe it's possible that SOE isn't out to "get" anyone... they actually think this will improve the game, which will make it more popular.  And who knows, maybe they are right.</P><p>Message Edited by Laralma on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 PM</span>

[Cynto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Laralma wrote:<BR> <P>I don't play on Test, so the only information I have is what I have seen people post.  However, I think there is a chance that this isn't as big a nerf as people think it is.  Yes, T6 armor is getting nerfed because it is out-of-line with the publicly stated, desired progression, which is:  Fabled > Legendary > Rare Crafted > Treasured.  Other crafted items which are out-of-line with this progression may also get nerfed.  I am not positive what those items are, possibly some weapons?  Rings?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Don't even get me started on the "rare" rings. I am soooo glad i'm not a Jeweler at the moment. The SSes i've seen for T2 to T4 or T5 rings do not give me any sort of hope that SoE cares about us. Unless they've changed them again, the last stats I saw for the rings they had SSes of showed stats so bad I wouldn't even let a swarm pet wear it. (For those not in the know, swarm pets only last for a max of one encounter, unless they're dispatched with a single AE)</FONT></P> <P>For the lower tiers, it is not clear to me that there is much actual nerfing going on.  They are lowering resists on the lower tier armor, for example, but they are increasing stats.  People talk about how important resists are, but lots of legendary gear doesn't have as many resists as the rare crafted.  Furthermore, at the lower levels, resists may actually be less useful than stats, at least for most classes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>The best way to put it is this. Crafted may have had more resists that it added to, but Legendary and Fabled dropped gear added MORE to the resists they gave bonuses to. For example, (these are not real number btw) I have a Cobalt BP that adds 500 to Fire resist, Mental resist and Magic resist. My Fabled dropped BP gives 700 to Fire resist and Cold resist. I am fighting a mob that does Fire damage. Which piece of armor do you think I am going to wear?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs typically only do 1 or if they're really mean 2 types of "spell" damage. They are taking all crafted and droping them from resists like +300 to fire and cold, to +100 to fire, cold and mental. That is a nerf. People who raid have specific types of armor for specific mobs. If you could inspect their bags you would see at least 2 if not 3 or 4 sets of armor for each slot for different resist types. Basicly this is saying "If you don't raid, you don't need resists, have fun taking more damage from Heroic mobs." Don't delude yourself, It is a nerf.</FONT></P> <P>In terms of whether tradeskilling is going to be a viable "profession" in the future, I personally think this has much less to do with how tedious the process of making something is, and much more to do with how valuable the items are that tradeskillers make.  If they are noticeably better than Treasured gear, then at least for the lower tiers, people will want it.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>With the recent dungeon revamps to FG, RoV, RE, Sol Eye, CT, Perma, etc, people are not going to want crafted as much as they did in the past. They have made Legendary gear drop like candy from zones that I don't think ever had any legendary drop at all, or if it did it was a 1 in 1,000,000 chance. Basicly they've made those zones like T6/T7 zones for how often Legendary drops, and then they nerfed crafted. I'm not counting on much of a market among people who used to need crafted, they can get drops much easier now.</FONT></P> <P>For T6 and T7, I do think there could be a problem.  It is possible that there are more Legendary and almost-Legendary treasured dropping, so people are not willing to pay a high price for crafted gear when other gear is so much easier to get.  The only solution I can think of to this is to make sure that rare crafted really is better than Treasured.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Not even touching this one, SoE is nerfing all other teirs to match this one, its pretty obvious how they feel about crafted gear nowadays.</FONT></P> <P>Another possibility is that the desire for Adept III spells is driving up the market for rares.  In the lower tiers, almost no one bothers with Adept III spells, but in the upper tiers, they buy them.  The high price of spell rares makes other items that use these rares be more expensive.  That probably mostly affects jewelry, but I'm not certain.  Anyway, the way to solve that is to have different rares for spells and for other TS professions.  That way, the market for the spells will not drive the market for TS professions out of reach.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Ore, Roots, and Wood have always been expensive as well, and they are not used for Adept III's. Rares get priced at where they are because crafters and people that want gear will pay it, its a demand driven area of the market. People will pay outrageous prices, so thats what the rares cost. Look back at T5 now, stuff sells for 50g or so even though there is probably about the same number of people in that level range as there was when T5 was the cap. People however don't view as much of a need to get Adept III's or rare gear at those levels because they will pass the point at which it is usefull and all that stuff will get replaced. Hence why it no longer commands a 3pp price tag.</FONT></P> <P>Anyway, the bottom line is, don't panic.  Wait until the changes go live.  Then wait another month or two to let the market adjust to the changes.  Then, if there is still a problem, complain.  Hard as it is for some people to believe it's possible that SOE isn't out to "get" anyone... they actually think this will improve the game, which will make it more popular.  And who knows, maybe they are right.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I'm not panicing so much as just being generally peeved at the way this game is going. I paid for a mostly finished product that would "evolve" not a product that would be almost 100% different from when I bought it less than 1.5 years from its release.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>(Please btw, don't give me the "But all MMO's change n00b!" Yes, they do change, but no MMO that I have ever seen or played has changed this much in as little a time frame, many never even changed this much. The only one that ever changed more than this product has is another SoE game, SWG, and its lost all its playerbase at this point)</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Laralma on <SPAN class=date_text>06-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:15 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Cynto on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:38 PM</span>

[IpigPiachoep]

<DIV>For a Bard I don't think anything beats Xegonite Melodic Chain and I wish I had access to melodic when I was leveling up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too am not in it for profit however when I have almost 10 plat in subcombines to make a weapon for anywhere between 1 gold and 25 gold, something nedded to be done and I'm glad that it is. I'm in it for the name recognition, when I examine a player and I read a weapon was made by me, it brings a big smile to my face. The only way I supported my grind to 70 was adventuring and I don't think it should be that way. </DIV>

[Aeldritch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Regarding subcombines, or the lack thereof - meh. It's not that big of a deal. I do really appreciate the thought and 'realism' of the subcombine system. The interdependencies at launch were a pain, and honestly, I didn't mourn their passing. As a TS-XPer, I appreciated the 'off-skill' books as a way to build a ton of xp quickly. For example, I took a carpenter from 20-25.5 solely by doing the thaumaturgy, geomancy, weaving, and timbercraft books. I like that easy xp. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />OTOH, as someone with 6 crafters at various stages in their careers (70 WW, 64 Armorer, 60 Tailor, 58 Alchy, 49 Sage, 26 Carpenter), I agree that <b><i>improvements</i></b> to tradeskills are badly needed.For a long time, I've lamented to friends that there aren't tradeskill quests. (No, workshop tasks and writs are NOT quests.) When the artisan's vest line was introduced, I was quite pleased. Sure, it was disappointing that it was only for the first tier, but it was nice. You got to sample the various trades and you got a niftly little reward. You could 'self-fund' your way through the first 10 levels and get a tier-suitable reward.Sure, the 'Secrets of the (insert trade here)' lines are there, but those aren't feasible for the pure crafter, nor even to most players, since, if done at a level-appropriate time, they're high-end, even raid-level events.Unfortunately, that's pretty much it-until KoS.In KoS two high-level quests were added that require high-level crafting skills. I appreciated that, and am glad that they haven't caved on the TS requirement for those quests. There's also the line in the Nest, which I was glad to see. But they *also* require high level adventuring, and don't grant 'TS-Quest-XP'. So 'pure' crafters are again out in the cold.There are also some interesting rewards for the collection quests that give crafter bonuses. These were surprising, and I hope to find more of these. Again, you're not gonna get too many shinies as a level 9 wizard out in Bonemire, though. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Did I appreciate the lack of subcombines in  T7? Like I said -- meh. What I found was that I was even more bored than before. You can't stage your crafting. For example, you might have a ton of metal on hand, but not many roots / hides / wood. So, crank out the tempers, bars, and metal subs that you'll need later. Bank those and find an area rich in the resource you need and you can prep the next part next week. Now, you need ALL of the various resources immediately at hand.As a woodworker, T7 was ... odd. Getting the ammo recipes and losing the shields seemed arbitrary and a bit nonsensical. I was happy that my guildies really liked the arrows and shuriken, etc. But crikey! Try making 1000 arrows. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (as if it wasn't bad enough already). That lasts for part of 1 raid. Multiply that by 3 rangers or so and a few monks. Aaaarrrrgggh! And I consider WWs to be pretty lucky. At least I've got some things that are in demand.The news that there will be no profit to be made on vendor sellbacks whatsoever is unfortunate, and, I hope, temporary. I liked the challenge of 'self-funding' my crafters. Because of the way offline selling worked, the only reliable means of income was to dump things on the vendor and do tasks/writs. With all of those options gone, I'll end up just siphoning money off my main. Now, I haven't read how the consigment / broker changes work, so perhaps that will help. But in order for that to work, you need products that people want.The crafted T7 armor / weapons / jewlery are pretty much a joke. I don't think I've ever sold a 'common' weapon / shield / armor, despite pricing it *barely* above the current vendor buy-back, or, if imbued, AT the price I paid for the imbue element! If you can get better gear killing flies in TT than what a crafter can give you, what's the point of crafting it?Ultimately, like most other changes in this game, much noise will be made, many threats uttered, and histrionics emoted. Will it be as bad as that? No. We tend to fear change, is all. Will some things really suck? Yes. Other parts will rock. For example, from what I read, there really are TS questlines! W00t! There will be patches to the fixes to the updates to repair the bugs to the changes to the revamps.In the end, if you don't like it, don't do it. Provide <b><i>reasoned</i></b> feedback, suggestions, and ideas. Your awesome idea may never make it into the game, but it could be the spark to some other improvement -- you never know.Just trying to temper the sour mood with a bit of optimism and a dose of calm. Ride the storm!My 3cp. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Aeldritch on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 PM</span>

[Maroger]

<P>SOE has never respected crafting and tradeskills very much. They are now doing in EQ2 just what they did in EQ1. Basically they are turning into a hobby not an alternative career to adventuring.</P> <P>In EQ1 they nerfed the output stats a lot, thus ensuring no one would buy it. Then they nerfed the price you could sell it to an NPC vendors so that you would lose money by making the item.</P> <P>They basically are repeating the same patterns in EQ2 (Maybe the same mindless designer who hates tradeskills came over from EQ1 to help).  No one will want your output and you can no longer sell it to a vendor to cover costs and make a small profit. Basically they have made sure that crafing is not worth doing any more. This is especially true for Armor and Weaponsmith -- same pattern in EQ1 is being repeated here in EQ2.</P>

[Yadylia]

<DIV>I generally agree with the OP, it is a big nerf, it will make tradeskills less complicated in a way but also more boring then they already were, not to mention that it will take longer to level (because, unless I misunderstood, items will give about the same amount of exp as a subs do right now, and you won't have all the exp bonus from all the subs) and you will also need a lot more raws.  I have never seen a game where they make so many changes and nerfs to tradeskills (and I don't mean adding new cool stuff and recipes, that would be more then fine), its just upsetting, just like any nerf to adv classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I liked them the way they were to start with, when the game went live, when we needed each other for subs even if sometimes you had to wait until someone could make the subs you needed.</DIV>

[TheRealMo]

<div><blockquote><hr>SwissArmyShoe wrote:<div></div> <p>I'm one of the "Crafting drives me nuts with the amount of subcombines" crowd.</p> <p>I for one will be happy to see the subcombines go, I might actualy put the time and effort in to level up past lvl 30 without wanting to strangle myself. </p><hr></blockquote>Mega Ditto!<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></div>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hukklebuk schrieb:<div><blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:No subcombines is good; I disagree with the OP about that. However, nerfing tradeskill products is bad. As it is, common tradeskill items are garbage only suitable for tradeskill level grinding, and rare ones are barely comparable to common treasured loot.<hr></blockquote>I agree JooneauI like no subcombines... is it really going to lead to a flooded market as some are worried?  Not by a long shot, and why, because the crafted gear isn't going to be worth making a lot of.   People will still get orders when folks crack a new tier, but that will probably be it, if it's even that.So let's break it down and see who's going to have what left to sell:  (keep in mind a fair profit, not gouging or 5cp)Tailor :         hex dolls Alchemist :  Fighter CA's of adept III only, Poisons and Potions Provisioner:  Everything that sold beforeWoodwooker: TotemsCarpenter: BoxesArmorsmith: Imbued rare BP's and legsWeaponsmith: Imbued rare weaponsSage: Caster adept III's<b>Jeweler: rare jewelry and Scout adept III's</b>forgive me if I mixed up woodworker and carpenter, I never bothered making one of either..... yet.So all told, that looks like about it that will remain mildly profitable...Now keep in mind, I really like the no subcombine stuff, but nerfing the crafted gear/items is a garbage move imo.Raid gear and rare loot should always be better than crafted?  mmm not *all* the time but 95% of the time yes.  Case in point - Grandmaster crafted gear from EQ1 DoN Expansion.  Better than some raid gear at the level, but  there was a lot more raid targets available to that level than there is here.  so  /shrug   why not let someone have an incredibly long shot at harvesting something that could be made into something dang good.  I don't care if it's a rare fish sandwhich.  Crafting needs to have a purpose and a chance to be able to make something folks will <b>want to buy</b>.  Or at least look at and say wow that's nearly as good as my raid gear.Now ... easy raiders, I'm one of you...  I'm not calling for a mass influx of items.  I say make the harvest that could be used much rarer than rares were at launch... AND make the recipe a long quest, soloable by any class, but long..... very very long.  That way when we all see that fantastic crafted item we can all go... 'dang man someone actually did the quest and found the rare.... sweet!'Crafting isn't going to die, but man the itemization nerf stinks.but I digress....so, thoughts on what's going to be left to sell?</div><hr></blockquote>The T7 Rare jewelery is not existent. Things you get from picking up questionmarks are better. Nobody would wear acrylia or moonstone jewelery because it is beter sold to priests and mages for adept 3 spells. An amorer friend wasflooded with 10 jobs per day to make t6 rare complete armors. From the beginning of KoS he has made 2 or 3 rare t7 pieces. But not per day. The whole time. My warden is also a jeweler and i made an acrylia symbol which i now can wear (lvl67), but i won´t because i have better stuff since lvl 64.<div></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von sAs-Bartleby am <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 AM</span>

[Nervaaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>An amorer friend wasflooded with 10 jobs per day to make t6 rare complete armors.<BR>From the beginning of KoS he has made 2 or 3 rare t7 pieces. But not per day. The whole time.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0033>My armorer is constantly making T7 armor .. all pieces not just imbued BP and Legs ... and it sells constantly.  My problem has not been sales, but being able to buy up enough raw xeg at good prices.  Does it sell?  Last Saturday I put 35 pieces of Xeg Vanguard on the broker, and by Monday it was all gone except for 2 helms.  Chain sells slower, but I think that is due to scouts being not as "armor" fixated as are tank types.  </FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rast]

<P>Different servers have different mileage I guess...</P> <P>Regardless, it is going live and there is little to nothing we can do about it anyways <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[DeathRider69]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jerril wrote:<div>Looks like the WOW(instant gratification) crowd is out in force.  From the very beginning SOE has started crafting down that slippery slope of making it easier for those not willing to take the time and effort.</div> <div> </div> <div>You love the no sub-combines because now it fits your "get it on demand" lifestyle.  Face it-a lot of people of come to expect things right away  and are unwilling and lose interest if something takes a time commitment.</div> <div> </div> <div>The reason I liked crafting was because it too longer and you actually had to make the various pieces a real craftsman would have to make in order to fashion an item.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now we have entered the arena of Harry Potter potions class--a rock-a piece of wood-a gem and some fuel-throw it all into the cauldron and viola--a apell pops out.</div> <div> </div> <div>Quite a few people enjoyed the process of actually making each piece-the ink-the quill-the paper.... and seeing your crafting come actually somewhat mimick how it is actually done in real life. For you flamers I said "somewhat"</div> <div> </div> <div>Now the ADHD crowd gets to throw it all into one part-say a magic word-and out pops a spell..or whatever your crafting.</div> <div> </div> <div>Just sad SOE is taking the complexity and effort out of this game. I don't want another WOW-I picked EQ2 specifically because its harder.</div> <div> </div> <div>Sad,</div> <div> </div> <div>Jerril</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Well I prefer both sides here in the argument.  First off, I do like the subs to some degree.  It did make crafting a challenge.  I know I spent 75% of my first 6 months crafting on 5 toons until I had to level again to be able to harvest higher tiers.  After spending 2 months leveling my toon to 55, I went to craft some AD3 for my Wife's toon.  It took 1 hour just to make all rare ink, quills, paper, and WORTs for 6 spells. with only the ink being pristine.  If it was in tier then it would have been XP but lower tier it just became tedious.  Personally I would have like to see a more mixed no-sub/sub system.  This would still require final subs but not the tedium of WORTs and baby-refines.  <font color="#ff9900">Example:  Arrows</font>.     <font color="#99ff00">These buggers are a real pain to make with all of the WORTs required and multiple baby subs.  In a mixed system I would just pop to the forge and crank out arrow heads, clothing table to pop out fletching, wood to pop shafts.  Then I would sub the whole set.</font><font color="#99ff00"></font>But that is not what SOE has chosen to do...On the other side of the argument, I am also partial to no-subs.  I have a woodworker, carpenter, armorer, alchemist, and sage.  For me to make a batch of spells, I have to first make a batch of 20 inks (60 subs) combined with the associated WORTs (15 subs).  Then I have to make 20 paper (20 subs) plus WORTs (5 subs) and quills (40 subs) plus WORTs (10 subs).  Even with crude paper and quills and average about 45 secs per prisitine subs, it takes me 1 1/2 - 2 hours just to do prep.   Since all of the inks, paper, and quills are x0 or x1 level subs, I am getting < 1% per sub.   So I am making around 150 subs and getting maybe 90% XP for the subs.   At this point the only thing I have work sale is the ink and while partially marketable, it is difficult to get back the associated time to cost for me.Then I have to spend another 2-5 mins per recipe making the final subs.Now with no subs in the same period I can crank out all of the same-level or higher recipes and get the XP buff.  Then if I have the rares or get orders, I can crank out the AD3 and get that XP buff.   I then chose if I want to grind on the recipes or just pack back up and go harvesting or adventure grinding.  Subcombines are why my armorer has not gotten out of the low 30s.  The Vanguard armor needs only 1 table + WORTs.  If I make chain, I have to spend all of that time make multiple WORTs, thread, padding, this and that...   It finally got to the point that it was not worth the effort.  Especially when normal made armor will not even sell at fuel costs as 95% of the solo mob drops are better.  The same goes for player made arrows.  When I was trying to make arrows for sale, I just stopped bothering.  It cost me more to make them for sale in terms of time and fuel that I could not even sell them and make any proffit.  To sell them they had to cost less than the Bower's arrows and selling below Bower was making so little proffit (on feyiron bodkin I was getting 2s proffit per 25 arrows) that I stopped.  I could make a batch of wolf totems and get 3g appiece for those.  Even selling at 1g on the totems I was still making a huge proffit.  While subs keep the ADHD crowd out of working to high-level crafting, the no-subs are going to expand product availability and pricing.  Plus if people flood the market and start selling below vendor trash + broker commission, I will buy them up just to vendor trash them and make a proffit!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div>

[GCT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DeathRider69 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Plus if people flood the market and start selling below vendor trash + broker commission, I will buy them up just to vendor trash them and make a proffit!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wrong.  This is the real nerf.</P> <P>Vendors only give you fuel cost when you sell an item to them now.</P>

[Rast]

<P>that isn't listed in the tradeskill notes, so we'll have to wait to see if it is a stealth thing, or something that was just on test due to some issues there.</P> <P>Me, I've got my fingers crossed.</P>

[masakre]

<DIV>With the patch notes and the new broker system, it looks like you will know exactly how much a vendor will give you for the item and price the item with this as your base selling price. You then have to put the item up on the market for sale, and in this process can change the price in which you want to sell it for. This will remove the likeliness of seeing an item up for sale that can be sold to a vendor for a profit.</DIV>

[Rast]

that wasn't the issue.  The issue was that on test you only got fuel costs for selling back to the vendor.  Not the fuel + a small profit that was normally obtained from that procedure.  This forces us to have to support the tradeskiller from either selling sub quality goods (ie, our common crafted crap) on the market (yah right...) or support the crafter though forced adventuring of some toon.

[Killerbee3000]

<P>here come my 2 cents on the new crafting system, if your happy with it plz dont read the rest of my post,</P> <P> </P> <P>plz bring back crafting like it was in the good old days with interdependancy, subcombines and the crafted goods should be of a quality that someone alteast considers wearing them.</P>

[Rast]

<P>KB,</P> <P>Sorry, that is never going to happen unfortunately...  This is the wave of Norrath's future and it is looking bleaker and bleaker to me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>