Buzz Kill results in cancellation

[SonicSorce]

I read all the so-called ins and outs of the TS mods. As they stand, they have ruined my game, I cancelled. Randomly making TS harder for lower levels in order to make it easier for higher levels...I guess...whatever..very bad choices here...this is NOT the path for TS <div></div>

[DeathRider69]

<font color="#ffcc00">Well I must say to not let the proverbial virtual door hit you on your rear on the way out.</font><div></div>

[ximo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SonicSorcery wrote:<BR>I <FONT size=5><STRONG>read</STRONG> </FONT>all the so-called ins and outs of the TS mods. As they stand, they have ruined my game, I cancelled. Randomly making TS harder for lower levels in order to make it easier for higher levels...I guess...whatever..very bad choices here...this is NOT the path for TS <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What he said above :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P>Personally I'd prefer to make a decision on trying for myself when they go live to see the final result  - rather than reading posts. <BR>But as they say each to their own!</P>

[Saihung23]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ximo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SonicSorcery wrote:<BR>I <FONT size=5><STRONG>read</STRONG> </FONT>all the so-called ins and outs of the TS mods. As they stand, they have ruined my game, I cancelled. Randomly making TS harder for lower levels in order to make it easier for higher levels...I guess...whatever..very bad choices here...this is NOT the path for TS<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What he said above :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><FONT color=#99ffcc>Personally I'd prefer to make a decision on trying for myself when they go live to see the final result  - rather than reading posts.<BR>But as they say each to their own!</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Quoted for emphasis, experience is everything.  Reading about something and actually delving into it is 1000x's more credible, more illuminating and allows you to make judgements based on fact and not fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the update comes out, I will make my decisions on how good or bad I think they are.  I will certainly not write posts that attempt to blackmail SOE's Dev's into removing a change.  If I dont like what they did for a legitimate reason (not some selfish one) then I will make appropriate posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey...cancel, but I suggest that you keep your over reacting to the virtual world.  Over react like this in real life and you will inevitably hurt yourself or someone else at some point...especially when it involves just reading something....I can think of quite a few things that people just read about or heard second or third hand and acted upon only to find out that the original information was entirely fictional or not based on facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good Luck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung<BR></DIV>

[l_doggy_l]

<div><blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ximo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SonicSorcery wrote:I <font size="5"><strong>read</strong> </font>all the so-called ins and outs of the TS mods. As they stand, they have ruined my game, I cancelled. Randomly making TS harder for lower levels in order to make it easier for higher levels...I guess...whatever..very bad choices here...this is NOT the path for TS <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>What he said above :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p><font color="#99ffcc">Personally I'd prefer to make a decision on trying for myself when they go live to see the final result  - rather than reading posts.But as they say each to their own!</font></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Quoted for emphasis, experience is everything.  Reading about something and actually delving into it is 1000x's more credible, more illuminating and allows you to make judgements based on fact and not fiction.</div> <div> </div> <div>When the update comes out, I will make my decisions on how good or bad I think they are.  I will certainly not write posts that attempt to blackmail SOE's Dev's into removing a change.  If I dont like what they did for a legitimate reason (not some selfish one) then I will make appropriate posts.</div> <div> </div> <div>But hey...cancel, but I suggest that you keep your over reacting to the virtual world.  Over react like this in real life and you will inevitably hurt yourself or someone else at some point...especially when it involves just reading something....I can think of quite a few things that people just read about or heard second or third hand and acted upon only to find out that the original information was entirely fictional or not based on facts.</div> <div> </div> <div>Good Luck</div> <div> </div> <div>Saihung</div><hr></blockquote>Very well said.::applaud::</div>

[Rast]

Even I, who is not enthused about the changes, am willing to wait until they are implemented to make my decision...  To leave without trying the changes out is not the right way to go, but hey, to each their own.

[skidmark]

I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test.

[Etherium]

<P>I have done quite a bit of crafting with the new system and with a few different classes.  For the most part, it is a positive change.  Now I have to confess that from just reading about it, I was against the idea.  There are some problems with recipes and such yet... but it is still being tested and finalized.  I encourage everyone to give the changes a chance and not to cut and run before they see for themselves what is coming.  That goes for a lot of test content.  Some does not go live as it is first announced or at all.  If you are playing this game because you are enjoying yourself, then perhaps you owe yourself a chance to decide whether you like the new changes or not.  If you are not enjoying the game, why are you still here?</P>

[GCT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> skidmark wrote:<BR>I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them, leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</P> <P>Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.</P>

[standupwookie]

I tradeskill just to equip my alts and such.  This update is good for me in that respect.  I never sell anything anyways. But, they are taking a lot of flair and originality out of the Alchemist profession (my current TS) and that really annoys me.  Making things easier or harder is one thing.  Dumbing down the game is another thing.  But taking out the creativity is the first sign of a game going out to pasture. I honestly think this update will irrevocably chang EQ2 for the worse.  A few years fown the road, people will point to this update as the straw that broke the vulrich;s back. suw

[Weizen Heimer]

Since no one has beaten me to it, Can I have your stuff?<p>Message Edited by Weizen Heimer on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Kraven Coldblade]

<DIV>Well... uhm.. you may have typed it b4 me but I thought of it first!  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zmobie]

<blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>skidmark wrote:<BR>I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test.<BR><BR><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them, leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</P><hr></blockquote>What possible reason would I have to make <i>N</i> low level scrolls, where I could make, at best, a few silver profit, when I could spend the exact same time to make <i>N</i> high level scrolls, where I could make a few gold profit?The only thing this does is make it so that when I want to outfit a low level alt, or a RL friend, I can do so without spending hours in the TS society grinding out grey subs to make grey scrolls.Right now, if someone asks me to make a T1-T4 scroll, I suggest the find a T1-T4 sage who can still get xp on the scrolls. This won't change just because those tiers are going to no-sub.--Plague

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>skidmark wrote:<BR>I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><BR>Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them, leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>What possible reason would I have to make <I>N</I> low level scrolls, where I could make, at best, a few silver profit, when I could spend the exact same time to make <I>N</I> high level scrolls, where I could make a few gold profit?<BR><BR>The only thing this does is make it so that when I want to outfit a low level alt, or a RL friend, I can do so without spending hours in the TS society grinding out grey subs to make grey scrolls.<BR><BR>Right now, if someone asks me to make a T1-T4 scroll, I suggest the find a T1-T4 sage who can still get xp on the scrolls. This won't change just because those tiers are going to no-sub.<BR><BR>--Plague<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because it would take you no time at all to do it.  I can tell you that after this change if I have the resources (and I usually keep soem extra around, with these changes it will be easier too as well since there won't be as many) if someone requests for me to make a t2 set of chain, I'd do it without any thought.

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <BR>Because it would take you no time at all to do it.  I can tell you that after this change if I have the resources (and I usually keep soem extra around, with these changes it will be easier too as well since there won't be as many) <STRONG>if someone requests for me to make a t2 set of chain, I'd do it without any thought.<BR></STRONG> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is not quite the same thing as 'flooding the broker' with lower level items. If a friend or guildie asks I'll do so, but then Id have done so even when subs were a factor. Unless it takes me markedly less time to make a T3 combine vs a T7 combine and Im talking more that a few seconds..I'll focus on T7. T7 sales = gold/plat...T3 sales = silver/gold...hmm tough choice I know. </P> <P>Unless someone is seriously bored I just dont see any high level crafter wasting their time making lower tiered stuff in bulk to sell on the broker..you still have to have the raws for that tier whether you have to make subs or not. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[mylin1]

/shrugI craft for the level that hasn’t got a flood of items on it - my 46 smith often builds lvl 20 and lvl 30 stuff - same time and at least they sell unlike the lvl 40 gear.  Sure I'm selling mostly rares but without the pain of making chain ill also be making commons if there is a gap in the market.The most unpredictable thing about this change is the people who play the game, no one can predict what people are going to do so its all a matter of wait and see. I have heaps of old raws to burn through that I haven’t bothered with because of the effort to make grey armor wasn’t worth my time - you can bet that ill be using it all post revamp. The other thing that makes the lower tiers appealing is that the mobs around nodes are all grey to me and my 240+ skills will allow me to harvest more for less time - so its easy to build & easy to harvest & sells just as well - so why not target these lvls?who knows..Mylin

[apotv]

<DIV>WHile there are good things coming for the tradeskillers, I canceled my account as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I played test, yes I know whats on its way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my problems lay in the simple fact that legendary crafter, master crafted whatever... is useless in T7, yes i know you can sell it.  but that armor can be replaced for free if the purchasers just trolled instanced zones such as cazels mesa, poets palace etc.  my guardian had a full set of fabled<now legendary> from doing just that.  remember when people who had a full set of ebon, or even more rare rubicite were concidered the best equiped?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Baring fabled X4 raid gear you couldnt find any better than rare crafted gear.  Unless you were reallly lucky, i remember the day i got the soul harvester off of shakey in RV I didn't ditch that untill it went grey, and only saw afew people that had the same weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They made a mistake in seperating resist gear with regular gear, that made my life hard as a tank... should I have to fill my bags with a significant variaty of gear so i can change it around if the curcumstances are needed? well yes and no.  but 2 or 3 differant sets of jewelery is dumb... plain and simple.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i can max my stats with this gear... hey where did my resisits go? ah crap.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So basically I was a avid crafter, and avid adventurer.  when i saw what pieces of crap the rare crafted gear was in T7 I was bummed, adventured a little and it lost its touch.</DIV> <DIV>Butcherblock</DIV> <DIV>68 guardian 69 weaponsmith</DIV> <DIV>56 inquisitor 70 provisioner</DIV> <DIV>38 wizard     34 jeweler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nagafen</DIV> <DIV>51 dirge     42 armorer</DIV> <DIV>10 wizzy    45 woodworker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RETIRED</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no you cant have my stuff I already gave it away</DIV>

[Brigh]

Funny all these people (threatening to) cancelling when the devs have said they will look at the T7 armors' resists over stats issue.Cancelling is different than deleting (but you can still beg to restore deleted characters too).

[Hukklebuk]

<div><blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> skidmark wrote:I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test. <hr> </blockquote> <p><font color="#ffff00">Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them,</font> leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</p> <p>Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.</p><hr></blockquote>very very good point.   and umm *ahem* ahh yes, I was going to try that... maybe....  I can't confirm nor deny....</div>

[Celestian_]

<div><blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<div></div>Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.<hr></blockquote>I was never able to support myself selling items I made leveling up before, how will this be different.</div>

[Ebjelen]

<P>Gah! All these abbreviations, implications, innuendos, and general implications. I thought TS meant Thundering Steppes.</P> <P>We're not only talking in code, everyone has their own code :smileysad: I'm so confused.</P>

[Braw]

<DIV>9 out of 10 people who say they are cancelling after a nerf never really do</DIV>

[Lydiae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Celestian_GC wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote:<BR> Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was never able to support myself selling items I made leveling up before, how will this be different.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Plus you can sell your finished goods to an NPC vendor for a small profit (if you harvest your own rares) and they're adding the capability to sell to the city factions for coin and status.  99% of the common crafted items I made were vendored before, and it will be the same after.

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> skidmark wrote:I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them, leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</p> <p>Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.</p><hr></blockquote>You mean the low level tradeskillers that rarely if EVER broker any items?  You mean the ones that are going to be screwed by me begging the guild sages to make me spells for 1-20 because there isn't more than 3-5 adept1s (for 30g each) and no app4s on the market?  Really.  How nice, i hope they DO flood the low level market, at least i could find a spell for my alts on occasion... oh my god, maybe... just maybe I could find some craft armor and weapons under 20g too, that'd be a nice change. Jesh.</div>

[SonicSorce]

<div></div>Threatening cancell--loo, No, tis done...delete, no, I cancell and remove a month or two of payment as a reasonable form of protest. The prostest is not willie-nillie, Im not flying off at the handle. I have  6 chars who are all TradeSkillers, and who exhance items for personal use. If it is a market then, someother solution should be found. As it stands, I, and pretty much any serious lower level TS'r on Test has been complaining of missing books, missing ingredients, impossible recipies. My chars are all mid level, and do TS at lower to Mid level, and focus on rares. This is apparently exactly the people DEV intends to affect...and the effect is making any kind of soloTS overly cumbersome, or downright un-doable, since items are literally missing from the wholesalers. As far as the door hitting my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], your comments are exactly useless. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SonicSorcery on <span class=date_text>06-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 AM</span>

[Loura]

<DIV>I like the changes. I love EQ2. This does not mean I think it is perfect, nothing is. But if I didn't like the game or couldn't deal with the changes there are at least a dozen other games out there for me to try (and I have actually tried a few). Bottom line is that no one game works for everyone or there would only be one. Find the one you like and don't whine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Constructive suggestions and legitimate feedback is requested by EQ2 and can be sent by anyone at any time using the /feedback command. THAT is where to tell Sony how you feel about things. Warning, whinning there probably won't do anything either but well thought out suggestions may well do a lot of good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2cp worth <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Erurat]

<DIV>Good riddance.  Are you on Crushbone?  If so then less lag for me now; thanks for leaving.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Erurat on <span class=date_text>06-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

[GCT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> skidmark wrote:<BR>I am confused by his statement "randomly making it harder on lower levels", what? TS is much easier on test.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe because right now the subcombine system is the only thing keeping advanced tradeskillers from making gobs of pristine low level stuff and spamming the market with them, leaving the low level crafters to suffer by not making any money.</P> <P>Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You mean the low level tradeskillers that rarely if EVER broker any items?  You mean the ones that are going to be screwed by me begging the guild sages to make me spells for 1-20 because there isn't more than 3-5 adept1s (for 30g each) and no app4s on the market?  Really.  How nice, i hope they DO flood the low level market, at least i could find a spell for my alts on occasion... oh my god, maybe... just maybe I could find some craft armor and weapons under 20g too, that'd be a nice change. Jesh.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I put everything I make on the broker.  Armor flies off and I can't make enough, while weapons sit there forever.</P> <P>I do not go out and harvest my own raws because I'd rather craft than adventure most of the time.  See my main character above -- 20ish paladin, 30ish weaponcrafter.  And she's the only one I take outside the city at all.</P> <P>I am glad that you will be able to turn in crafted items for status, however, my main point remains.  Crafting will no longer be viable as a primary way of playing this game.</P>

[Pullo]

<P>There will be some impact on the various server economies after this goes live.  For a brief period it may be a bit ugly... expect prices to drop for a bit.</P> <P><BR>Overall though, the new system is a very nice system.  Harvesting is pretty fun and the crafting keeps what was good in the current system while dropping a lot of the tedium.  More people will dabble in crafting, so yes low level crafting will have a harder time making money (this in itself is a good reason why high level crafters wont spend much time in the low level crafting levels, prices will get diluted pretty fast).  I haven't seen the T7 stuff, so I'm not qualified to discuss that.</P> <P> </P> <P>I've played around with a couple of crafting builds on test since this patch went in and I enjoy them immensely more than my Alchemist on Mistmoore.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm more curious right now on how the new Broker system changes will impact the market.  As it stands right now (unless I'm completely daft and haven't figured the whole process out), it seems that it'll be quite hard to flood the market with anything as a single crafter.</P>

[Inchid]

I swear people will complain about anything. Next thing you know people will be complaining that DWB Req 10 wood and ore!!! im sure many of you remember looking for 100 of each and each nobe only gave 3 pulls no matter if you get a raw or not... AH the good ole days. Crap is almost too easy anymore. OK but back on topic. SOE can not please everyone. As for me I love the changes. If i make an alt and want to make a full set of armor for him/her it will take maybe 10 min instead of well over an hour will all the sub combines. and THANK GOD for the harvesting changes!!!<p>Message Edited by Inchidar on <span class=date_text>06-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 AM</span>

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Shadus wrote: <div>You mean the low level tradeskillers that rarely if EVER broker any items?  You mean the ones that are going to be screwed by me begging the guild sages to make me spells for 1-20 because there isn't more than 3-5 adept1s (for 30g each) and no app4s on the market?  Really.  How nice, i hope they DO flood the low level market, at least i could find a spell for my alts on occasion... oh my god, maybe... just maybe I could find some craft armor and weapons under 20g too, that'd be a nice change. Jesh.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I put everything I make on the broker.  Armor flies off and I can't make enough, while weapons sit there forever.</p> <p>I do not go out and harvest my own raws because I'd rather craft than adventure most of the time.  See my main character above -- 20ish paladin, 30ish weaponcrafter.  And she's the only one I take outside the city at all.</p> <p>I am glad that you will be able to turn in crafted items for status, however, my main point remains.  Crafting will no longer be viable as a primary way of playing this game.</p><hr></blockquote>If only 600-700 other people across all the server did the same we might have a functional economy.  This isn't going to hurt the economy it will help it in the long run maybe get rid of some of hte low level price gouging by creating competition.</div>

[Mishkel]

<DIV>I play on Antonia Bayle myself and I would think we could use a bit more low level market saturation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't really see a need for Steel weapons to be priced at 1 plat + or Blackened Iron at 1 plat.  This isn't something that would inspire new players to want to come to the world.  There is usually no "basic" weapons/armor for sale.. tho when there is they usually are priced decently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again that's just this one server.  I'd never see this trade skill change as something to point at and say it ruined the game or started it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That happened a long time ago and prices have been like this for a long time.  Which goes back to a point in time where we got this great thing called "attunement".  Remember how that was going to save the crafter market?  All it did was allow the current price gouging.. mostly due to the fact that many crafters either vanished or just stopped crafting for public consumption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted the price of rares is pretty much on the stupid side as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every MMO I've played talks about saving the crafter market.  I have yet to see one that makes sure anyone or enough are even crafting to begin with.</DIV>

[Rast]

The price of the rare market is out of touch with the purchability of a character at that level, but that is because alot of times, you are forced to buy the rare to craft it and then you have to price off of your cost, not the cost you would have liked to have charged.  This won't change that at all, rares will still be rare.  You won't see any more adept IIIs on the market than you do now and they won't be priced any lower (or at least it is unlikely).  You might see more 'common' things though.  More app IVs and such, but with a game balanced around adept Is, what is the point?

[purplepalad]

<P>  I have never understood when people say this new system is dumbing down.  There is no thinking involved in crafting here.  Just time spent to achieve the product.  The ingredients are set.  As long as you dont mess up on the counters the product will be the same.  Use rares for better items is the only difference, and again if you dont messup on counters the product is the same.</P> <P>  When I played Star Wars Galaxies ( when I played been a while and am not commenting on curent crafting system there) it made a difference what items you made in the crafting.  You also had to choose where to put points during the crafting for best results in different stats.  </P> <P>  Even if you had it all figured out, when you finally ran out of a current resources and new ones popped you had to refugure it all over again.  There is no such resource variance here.  The recipes remain the same and so do the ingredients.</P> <P>  This change simply makes it easier for me to craft in less time.  Same process just less repetitous.  I am a level 51 armorer and a level 27 alchemist. I have done a fair share of crafting, some have done much more, but enough to know the over all ins and outs of crafting here.  Now instead of crafting 26 metal bars so I can make 12 studs, 7 sheets and 7 plates.... Just so I can make seven pices of armor I can craft seven times and be done.  </P> <P>  When a friend asks for armor, especially lower tier I can make it then and now.  Instead of saying get back with me in an hour or two Ill have it done.  So I see this as a positive change.  Less time spent to craft the same products.  Now if they would just allow me to stack all the armor Ill be able to make faster now Id actually be able to stock my vendor errr broker.</P> <P>                                                   Faade</P>

[Rast]

<DIV>They have been dumbing down the system since they released the game.  Always making it easier and easier to craft.  It used to be a complex and innovative system that required a community to be successful, but that was too difficult for some people I guess and they began the process of destroying every innovative part to make it what we will have in a couple weeks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shame really, but not suprising.</DIV>

[purplepalad]

<P>  Well what you speak of ( to my understanding ) is interdependency.  Which requires community.  This change doesnt "dumb" the system down.  It doesnt require mroe or less thought.  Less time yes.  but I do agree it takes less cooperation.  Thats good for people who cant play as much and bad for people who liked the community feel and working together that was previously required.</P> <P>  Personally with my schedule I am glad for the removal of interdependency.  But come to think of it the reason crafting has "so many" sub combines is because of the removal of interdependencies.  Not in a true fashion but in actual process.  See when you had interdependencies some people did part of the crafting and then you bought those already made subs ( unless you just had a ton of alts lol ).</P> <P>  So in some ways the process to make things is now being balanced by the loss of the group manufacturing that went on before the removal of the interdepencies.  Thats justa  thought anyway.  I appreciate others not likeing the change. I just feel this is better for me and makes it more fun for me.</P>

[Rast]

<P>dumbing down, to make easier, to require less thought.</P> <P>The current system and even more so the upcoming system will require less thought.  And while I'll admit it didn't require a whole lot to begin with, it did require some form of planning.  You needed to know how many materials you would need, how many chemicals and what type, you had to know which tables you needed and in which order and plan out your process.  In the early days, you needed to find those who could do certain things for you (heaven forbid someone has to talk to someone in a MMO)</P> <P>I too am a casual player, and I loved interdependency and I do not see this change as a balance, I see it as the natural progression of a bad decision made about 6 months after release.  They caved into those who whined and cried that interdependency was just too hard, and now they are caving to those who believe the current system is too tedious.</P> <P>It is a real shame that they keep bring the system down and down to fit the lowest common denominator of whiner rather than actually looking to make a rewarding, complex and difficult system.</P>

[Plague Mast]

<DIV>I consider myself primarily as a crafter first (or i did before junky tier 7 armor came out).  I would love to see a poll of serious crafters, light crafters, and non-crafters and see what each think about it.  I think you'd see more dissenting remarks as you talked to people who where more serious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, I originally hated the no sub idea.  Then, I got KoS and started doing tier 7 with no subs.  It sucked.  It was so hard to level an outfitter.  The time would have been fine, if I didnt have to harvest five times as much as I crafted.  I could see making a crafter spend maybe 20% of his time harvesting and 80% crafting, but as it is, it takes 10-12 raws per item (sold to broker after gaining my 1% xp).  This is in the ballpark of 1000 raws per level.  Thats alot.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leveling up now takes a ton of time, if you harvest all the raws needed.  (this may be different for spell making classes, and the lucky dogs get so many recipies per level)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The system really shines once leveled though.  I constanly have guildies asking me to make lower tier things, and I feel like they get annoyed when I refuse.  A suit of armor from scratch can take upward of 2 hours to round up all the raws, make all the subs, etc.  Now I'll be able to do them in 10 minutes as long as I keep a few stacks of the raws on hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once leveled, the new system rocks.  </DIV>

[Nainitsuj]

For a stack of 100 fuel, from lvl 1 to 20, I think it was less than 20 silver.  From that stack of 100 I have enough fuel to make 16 spells (with some fuel left over)  Four app4 spells sold to the vendor made back the cost of fuel.  I'm not sure how someone flooding the market with crap gear is going to bankrupt the up and coming crafters.  Could someone explain that part to me?

[SonicSorce]

As far as upper level impact, etc. I have no idea or interest. I am strictly speaking to the screw up of the lower level rare recipies that make creating numerous items impossible. No one sells, drops, or makes the required items any longer. Thus, they are excertped from the game. This is no way to keep a loyal fan base of craftspersons. Apparently, we are dispensible. As far as, hmm, lemme pick one at random, the comments like "are you from Crushbone? Then good riddence!"  Well, we can see these folks are not exactly the bightest bulb in the discussion. Either way, a 2 month protest penalty will be enforced. Lots of Traders are turning to protest penalties of quitting for 1-2 months here and there to disrupt and wake up the taken-for-granted greed mentality running rampant in the "Gosh, We Gotta Copy WoW" club currently running the assylum. This allows us to keep showing our basic love and support of EQ2, while still removing important and targeted revenus until we are attened and shown so consideration. Best. KT <div></div>

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div>They have been dumbing down the system since they released the game.  Always making it easier and easier to craft.  It used to be a complex and innovative system that required a community to be successful, but that was too difficult for some people I guess and they began the process of destroying every innovative part to make it what we will have in a couple weeks.</div> <div> </div> <div>Shame really, but not suprising.</div><hr></blockquote>EQ2's craft system from day 1 was dumbed to the point of extinction.  So was EQ1.  There have been very very few decent crafting systems ever done in a MMO period and the everquest crafting systems were never one of those very few.  Easier != Dumbing it down.  Crafting in galaxies was "easy", but several dozen levels deeper than EQ2.  Making someone go through 10 combines for sub parts is silly.  Not having variable quality of materials, skill of crafter, etc not part of the equation is dumbing it down. </div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <DIV>They have been dumbing down the system since they released the game.  Always making it easier and easier to craft.  It used to be a complex and innovative system that required a community to be successful, but that was too difficult for some people I guess and they began the process of destroying every innovative part to make it what we will have in a couple weeks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shame really, but not suprising.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>EQ2's craft system from day 1 was dumbed to the point of extinction.  So was EQ1.  There have been very very few decent crafting systems ever done in a MMO period and the everquest crafting systems were never one of those very few.  Easier != Dumbing it down.  Crafting in galaxies was "easy", but several dozen levels deeper than EQ2.  Making someone go through 10 combines for sub parts is silly.  Not having variable quality of materials, skill of crafter, etc not part of the equation is dumbing it down. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I won't say that the system is rocket science by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly requires less thought now than at day 1.  There is less planning, it is easier to get pristine (less thought on reactives).  Before you had to understand how many widgets and wouzels (gnome speak for you...  and trust me, that is hard coming from a Kerra <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) to make what you were setting out to make.  Now you just need to have stacks of raw materials and fuel and you can make anything you want from the tier...  There is NO thought in that at all.</P> <P>I'm not saying that the original system was perfect (far from it in fact), but to say that the upcoming system uses as much thought and planning as the original system is simply delusional.</P>

[Shadus]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div>While I won't say that the system is rocket science by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly requires less thought now than at day 1.  There is less planning, it is easier to get pristine (less thought on reactives).  Before you had to understand how many widgets and wouzels (gnome speak for you...  and trust me, that is hard coming from a Kerra <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) to make what you were setting out to make.  Now you just need to have stacks of raw materials and fuel and you can make anything you want from the tier...  There is NO thought in that at all. <p>I'm not saying that the original system was perfect (far from it in fact), but to say that the upcoming system uses as much thought and planning as the original system is simply delusional.</p><hr></blockquote>heh, you're confusing TIME CONSUMPTION with REQUIRING THOUGHT.  They are unrelated... you can have an extremely simple system that is massively time consuming and an extremely complex system that is massively time consuming.  Everquest2's crafting system from day 1 and even after the upcoming changes is *pathetically simplistic*, event, react, wait.  End of story, it doesn't matter if you do that 40 times or 1 time... it's still stupid easy.  In the current system lets say i have an item that needs a "Bobble", a "Gidget", and a "Cognogger" and then the "Final Combine".  I mindlessly make a bobble with raws, I mindlessly make a gidget with theraws, i mindlessly make a cognogger with the raws, then I mindlessly do the final combine.  Simple.  No thought, no effort, my skills make no real functional difference, no personal skin and what ive harvested or how high my harvesting makes no difference, nothing does, this is a recipe for x and it'll be x no matter if im a [Removed for Content] (who can play "match the icon") or a god of crafting.  There is no thought involved.  Absolutely mindless.  If i do one part better does it make a difference? No.  So after the changes, I do 1 combine.  Is it faster? absolutely.  Is it easier? Absolutely.  Is it any dumber? No, i'm still mindlessly pushing the same buttons over and over.Edit: if you played galaxies originally they had an interesting crafting system, qualities of materials effected end outcome of the item.  Was alot of fun and required you to think and plan things out based on things you knew... like x effects durability, y effects damage, z effects whatever... you could min max to get the stats the way you wanted on the end item, taking your time and finding a good harvesting location made a difference too... alot of things really made a big difference, like oh yer characters skill at what you were making?! *shock*.  EQ1/EQ2 just have crap [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tradeskill systems, they're absolutely mindless at best and this change keeps them just as mindless but less time consuming.  Shrug... zero sum no matter how you look at it.</div><p>Message Edited by Shadus on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[Kegofbud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Celestian_GC wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote:<BR> Whew, long sentence.  Mark my words, this new system will be the death of primary tradeskillers (probably including myself).  They will be unable to support their craft simply by selling items as they level up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was never able to support myself selling items I made leveling up before, how will this be different.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You haven't crafted on a PVP server I see. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Everything on there sells at a huge profit, even early levels. </P> <P>  The issue is going to be that some people will flood the low level markets. Sure, most of us won't do it because it won't be worth while.  There will be some people who do though. It doesn't take everyone, just some to hurt the low level crafters. I don't worry so much about this, because on my alts I've had problems getting low level rare gear made unless I do it or know someone else who will. right now, anyone /LFW is looking for their current tier only. This change will enable people to fill the holes in the market for lower levels. The problem with idea is going to be that the goods wll likely be overpriced for people of that early tier. People can drive that back down by flooding the market. </P> <P>  I think it will go in cycles. Prices will be up when someone sees a niche in the market. Other people will pick up on that and it will end up flooded. People will stop makign that product and search for another niche. The original one becomes empty again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> While I won't say that the system is rocket science by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly requires less thought now than at day 1.  There is less planning, it is easier to get pristine (less thought on reactives).  Before you had to understand how many widgets and wouzels (gnome speak for you...  and trust me, that is hard coming from a Kerra <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) to make what you were setting out to make.  Now you just need to have stacks of raw materials and fuel and you can make anything you want from the tier...  There is NO thought in that at all. <P>I'm not saying that the original system was perfect (far from it in fact), but to say that the upcoming system uses as much thought and planning as the original system is simply delusional.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>heh, you're confusing TIME CONSUMPTION with REQUIRING THOUGHT.  They are unrelated... you can have an extremely simple system that is massively time consuming and an extremely complex system that is massively time consuming.  Everquest2's crafting system from day 1 and even after the upcoming changes is *pathetically simplistic*, event, react, wait.  End of story, it doesn't matter if you do that 40 times or 1 time... it's still stupid easy.  In the current system lets say i have an item that needs a "Bobble", a "Gidget", and a "Cognogger" and then the "Final Combine".  I mindlessly make a bobble with raws, I mindlessly make a gidget with theraws, i mindlessly make a cognogger with the raws, then I mindlessly do the final combine.  Simple.  No thought, no effort, my skills make no real functional difference, no personal skin and what ive harvested or how high my harvesting makes no difference, nothing does, this is a recipe for x and it'll be x no matter if im a [Removed for Content] (who can play "match the icon") or a god of crafting.  There is no thought involved.  Absolutely mindless.  If i do one part better does it make a difference? No.  So after the changes, I do 1 combine.  Is it faster? absolutely.  Is it easier? Absolutely.  Is it any dumber? No, i'm still mindlessly pushing the same buttons over and over.<BR><BR>Edit: if you played galaxies originally they had an interesting crafting system, qualities of materials effected end outcome of the item.  Was alot of fun and required you to think and plan things out based on things you knew... like x effects durability, y effects damage, z effects whatever... you could min max to get the stats the way you wanted on the end item, taking your time and finding a good harvesting location made a difference too... alot of things really made a big difference, like oh yer characters skill at what you were making?! *shock*.  EQ1/EQ2 just have crap [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tradeskill systems, they're absolutely mindless at best and this change keeps them just as mindless but less time consuming.  Shrug... zero sum no matter how you look at it.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Shadus on <SPAN class=date_text>06-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No I'm not.</P> <P>It took some level of planning to know which widgets and fluzals you would need for a crafting session, that means less planning therefore less thought involved.  I won't deny that it has never been high on the thought list though, but it does require less thought now then it did then.</P> <P>Before:  You had to either know someone who could make the item and know how many you were going to need and work out the cost with the individual as well as what you would sell the item for or work the broker over to find the items.  This require some intelligence to determine whether the other person was trying to rip you off or not.  You had to understand costs alot more under the original system.  Yes, the process is as brain numbing boring now as it was then, but there was more to the process than just the buttons.  It required more inventory management, more process management and in general more knowledge of the system than you have now.</P> <P>Now:  You still have more inventory management (how many widgets and woozels you need), but most of the cost issues have been taken out of your hands since it costs you little more than it does anyone else to make that item.  There was a lot of the process lost in this 'dumbing down' decision.  To me, that was the nerf that shouldn't have happened, that was the dumb decision 6 months after release.  Instead of fixing the problems at hand (alchemists had too much power over the other professions) they the best part of the system out with the bath water.</P> <P>Future:  Now even the inventory management part of the process is gone.  To me, this is the final step of the stupid decision made 6 months after release.  This is where it all led to.  Now the process is the button mashing and the stuff we make is going to be worthless becuase it is so easy.  The only game left now is how much can I get for vendoring and how much status can I get for turning them in and where do I get the money to do the latter.  Not much of a game if you ask me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So yes, I do see it as a dumbing down of the process, while the core is the same (something that I would argue should have undergone the revamp, not the recipes) the rest of the process that existed around that required thought is now gone, thus dumbing down.<BR></P> <P>PS:  I did play SWG, but I didn't really like everything outside of the crafting and my guild wasn't much into the resource allocation game and at that particular time I didn't have enough time to really delve into it due to a recent addition to the Raston family <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:18 AM</span>

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>No I'm not.</p> <p>It took some level of planning to know which widgets and fluzals you would need for a crafting session, that means less planning therefore less thought involved.  I won't deny that it has never been high on the thought list though, but it does require less thought now then it did then.</p><font color="#ffff00">How does it take less now?  You still need x of this, y of that, z of this.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Before you opened the item you were going to make and add comps to the list, fuel, x, y, z.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Open x, add comps to list.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Open y, add comps to list.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Open z, add comps to list.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Get those materials and start combining mindlessly.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Now you open item you want to make, it's all on one page.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Get those materials and start combining mindlessly.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">SSDD.</font> <p>Before:  You had to either know someone who could make the item and know how many you were going to need and work out the cost with the individual as well as what you would sell the item for or work the broker over to find the items.  This require some intelligence to determine whether the other person was trying to rip you off or not.  You had to understand costs alot more under the original system.  Yes, the process is as brain numbing boring now as it was then, but there was more to the process than just the buttons.  It required more inventory management, more process management and in general more knowledge of the system than you have now.</p><font color="#ffff00">Cost != Requireing Thought</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Interaction != Requiring Thought</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Time != Requiring Thought</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">You can either get the components or you can't... that simple.  It doesn't require thought to get the components in the old system requires money (cost) or alternately an alt (time).  </font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Even in the new system you STILL have to have some intelligence to determine if the other person was trying to rip you off or not... on raws.  You can compare the raw costs to the market, you can compare the bought items from other crafters to the market, then you know if yer getting ripped or not.  It's no different, its SSDD.  You're just making the same evaluation at an earlier point in teh process.  There was nothing more to process. It still requires inventory management. No knowledge at all in either system... its pathetic both ways.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><p><font color="#ffff00">It's still mindless, mindless is mindless is mindless.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font></p>Now:  You still have more inventory management (how many widgets and woozels you need), but most of the cost issues have been taken out of your hands since it costs you little more than it does anyone else to make that item.  There was a lot of the process lost in this 'dumbing down' decision.  To me, that was the nerf that shouldn't have happened, that was the dumb decision 6 months after release.  Instead of fixing the problems at hand (alchemists had too much power over the other professions) they the best part of the system out with the bath water.<font color="#ffff00">Cost != Requireing Thought</font> <p>Future:  Now even the inventory management part of the process is gone.  To me, this is the final step of the stupid decision made 6 months after release.  This is where it all led to.  Now the process is the button mashing and the stuff we make is going to be worthless becuase it is so easy.  The only game left now is how much can I get for vendoring and how much status can I get for turning them in and where do I get the money to do the latter.  Not much of a game if you ask me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>So yes, I do see it as a dumbing down of the process, while the core is the same (something that I would argue should have undergone the revamp, not the recipes) the rest of the process that existed around that required thought is now gone, thus dumbing down.</p> <p>PS:  I did play SWG, but I didn't really like everything outside of the crafting and my guild wasn't much into the resource allocation game and at that particular time I didn't have enough time to really delve into it due to a recent addition to the Raston family <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><font color="#ffff00">It's really no different, they've just moved the processes up the list a bit, rather than doing them on subobjects you now do them on raws and finals.  Inventory management was never an issue for most people... with a bit of strength 6 boxes is pretty easy to manage and even without alot of strength you can easily manage large backpacks and never run into an inventory issue that would require thought... "durr, inventory full, dump in house vault."  It's still that way.  They've massively changed the efficiency of things, ill agree to that but its not a change in IQ required or thought required.Nod, I was only a crafter, in the end after hte nge its why i deleted my char.  No point any longer... just sucked.</font><hr></blockquote></div>

[Rast]

<P>Guess we are just going to have to disagree Shadus because I disagree with your assessment as you do with mine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Just want to comment on one of your comments though</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Cost != Requireing Thought<BR>Interaction != Requiring Thought<BR>Time != Requiring Thought<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>You are correct, those do not require thought.  What require thought was determining your costs and your potential profit and was only relevant to the original system (pre self sub combines).  You had to figure out what your costs really were and determine if it was worth it.  It doesn't really work when compared to raws because you can get those for free without much effort (at least pre t7).  The interaction didn't require thought, but you better know how many widgets you needed person A to make before you request them, especially if you are a class than needed multiple widgets from several different classes.  And I agree, time does not require thought, but you still had to be intelligent enough to walk away from a deal because you knew it was bad.  And because you had to do these things so much more, you had to keep much better tabs on what you were spending to make anything.</FONT></FONT></P> <P>Now, I really don't consider anything in my pricing other than the vendor buyback rate because everything in my product I made therefore only have the cost of time and the fuels in them.  (exception rares)  And therefore the thought on pricing my products went from having to calculate costs from other players to a simple 150% to 200% of the vendor buyback rate.<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Raston on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:56 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Raston on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 AM</span>

[skidmark]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by skidmark on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>