LU 24 - Where are the Assassin/Ranger/Fury/Alchemist/Jeweler comments?

[Squirrelbite]

<DIV>Hey All</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I'm reading up on LU 24 and I'm having trouble weeding through the TROUBADOR this and TROUBADOR that and COERCER this, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As one who only plays assassin/ranger/fury classes, I'd like to get input from the more experienced players on the upcoming changes.  As far as I can tell, there are no "I'm quitting because you guys are changing (x) class" comments.  Do you more experienced players think that the changes are overwhelming?  Hey thanks for your links/input.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[massem]

I have an assassin, jeweller and alchemist (and a Wizard) and the changes look good to these classes. As far as crafting is concerned the new changes seem great, less harvesting and no subcombines - yay <span>:smileyhappy: The assassin gets a tiny nerf to a stun, but that is nothing serious - assassins/rangers fare much better than most other classes and are barely affected by the control changes that will nerf some other classes very hard. </span>

[Lady Dee]

<P>Well on the fury side the sun is still shining.</P> <P>Our Cheetah run buff is being improved to cancel hostile roots</P> <P>Our Call of Storms is gonna hit more often now</P> <P>Our Maddening swarm debuff is loosing its power drain (lol who cares about that) and is becoming an encounter debuff instead of single target.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only nerf we are getting is to our Ring of Fire is having its recast time double from 30s to 1minute.  Kinda sucks but its nothing to massive.  All in all furys are coming out on the plus side of the changes.</P>

[Rijacki]

Alchemists are getting... umm... a major change to potions and poisons (which also affects -all- adventures since anyone can use potions and -all- rogues and predators since they can use poisons).  The changes aren't.. umm.. many of the changes are rather horrid.  - The overall number of potions and poisons is dropping.  - Most of the ones which are popular now are being eliminated.  Those types which are being kept are.. umm.. changed to deliver less "effect" than similar ones now.  - The number of procs per dose for poisons is being slashed in half for damage poisons.  - The maximum number of procs per combine is being reduced approximately 2/3 for rare poisons.  - The maximum number of doses per combine for both poisons and potions is being reduced.  - The intrinsic cost (fuel and harvest) is actually about the same pre and post for commons and less for rares.  - The ability to make rares has been reduced significantly (but partly because of the source of the rare component relies a lot more heavily on other crafters making adept IIIs to "pristine" and then not simply tossing the "dust" like trash).- All potions and poisons will follow the same naming scheme with a prefix indicative of level range for both the common and rare (while this does make it easier to know what one item is vs another tier to teir, it also takes away a lot of the "flavour" and eliminates all the "special named" from T6).- Harvested rare loam is the most rare of all the rare spell/CA harvests in T7 which is likely to be repeated for the other level teirs.- Essences and potions/poisons, rare and common, will require new harvests (meaning all alchemists will be required to harvest before they craft at any level, on the 14th, since all current stockpiles of harvests will be.. umm.. moot).- Alchemists are losing extracts (which was, for some alchemists, their best selling product).- Alchemists are losing inks (yes, all classes can use the cross crafting books to make ink, but some alchemists were still making their income from common and rare ink).<div></div>Not all of the changes for potions and poisons are on Test (hopefully), so there -may- be improvements to the system before it goes Live.  But, overall..- Alchemists are gaining no-sub essences which could make leveling easier for those seeking just to level.- Alchemists are losing a significant number of poisons and potions which were desirable to other players.- Alchemists are losing 2 income producing subs, one of which was alchemist crafted only.- Alchemists have to compete for the rarest spell/CA rare which won't even be harvestable until the change goes Live (meaning no stockpiles).In otherwords, alchemists who XP grind are getting a benefit.  Alchemists who craft for the market or guilds are taking a considerable hit.

[Cuz]

Resists potions are going poof aren't they?

[DataOutlaw]

<P>I levelled a swashbuckler to test the changes being concerend about how they would affect my Rangers ability to solo.</P> <P>With the new cheap shot I was still able to get off a flanking attack and a rear attack before the 2s stun wore off from a green 3-up arrow heroic MoB. It wasn't easy but solo-ing a 3-up heroic should never be easy even if they are a green con. </P>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>Resists potions are going poof aren't they?<hr></blockquote>long answer: In T7 there are ward potions instead of resist potions giving a higher amount which is "warded".  This means the damage is totally blocked until the damage amount exceeds the ward's absobtion at which time the ward drops completely.   short answer: yesadditional answer: not all tiers are even going to get the wards.</div>

[Cuz]

So the tiers that don't get the wards don't get any form of "resist" potions?

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>So the tiers that don't get the wards don't get any form of "resist" potions?<hr></blockquote>No tier will get "resist" potions, though all teirs will have the "cure" potions.I have LU#24 previews broken down by tiers and potions/poisons on <a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com" target=_blank>EQ2Alchemy</a>.</div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> So the tiers that don't get the wards don't get any form of "resist" potions?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No tier will get "resist" potions, though all teirs will have the "cure" potions.<BR><BR>I have LU#24 previews broken down by tiers and potions/poisons on <A href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/" target=_blank>EQ2Alchemy</A>.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry by "resist" I meant resist/ward.

[dubbs]

<DIV>You are not seeing any Ranger comments because they all have already quit.</DIV><p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 PM</span>

[Squirrelbite]

<P>Thanks all for your comments.</P> <P>lol well... no ranger comments because they have quit... mmmm well I haven't (yet).  Thinking, tho.</P> <P>Times like this I wish I had a direct Batphone to Rijacki.  </P> <P>If I burn every loam I have into bottles - Burn every bottle I have into some potion / poison, will this stockpile of potions and poisons exist afterwards in some sort of new form, or will they go *poof* into nothingness?  Maybe I'm not reading between the lines, I think I did notice she said that stockpile of loams is worthless.  so mathmatically, if L is loams and B is bottles and P is potions/poisons am I correct in writing -</P> <P>L=B=P=0</P> <P>or correct my math one of you guys, I failed.  :smileysurprised:</P> <P>Thanks for all yer inputs.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Slinkie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Squirrelbite wrote:<div></div> <p>Thanks all for your comments.</p> <p>lol well... no ranger comments because they have quit... mmmm well I haven't (yet).  Thinking, tho.</p> <p>Times like this I wish I had a direct Batphone to Rijacki.  </p> <p>If I burn every loam I have into bottles - Burn every bottle I have into some potion / poison, will this stockpile of potions and poisons exist afterwards in some sort of new form, or will they go *poof* into nothingness?  Maybe I'm not reading between the lines, I think I did notice she said that stockpile of loams is worthless.  so mathmatically, if L is loams and B is bottles and P is potions/poisons am I correct in writing -</p> <p>L=B=P=0</p> <p>or correct my math one of you guys, I failed.  :smileysurprised:</p> <p>Thanks for all yer inputs.</p> <hr></blockquote>My understanding is this:- All potions/poisons made prior to LU24 will remain as-is.- All components made prior to LU24 (such as glassware) will be usable in the new recipes.  An example of this is a rare vial that you have made prior to LU24 will substitute for the (adept iii) by-product dust  (in T7, it's scintillating dust) for making a rare potion/poison.- What HAS been said in the alchy boards is that, after LU24 is released, the number of charges you can make per loam will decrease.  So, it would be best to make your potions and poisons now so that you have more charges per raw.</div>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Slinkie wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Squirrelbite wrote:<div></div> <p>Thanks all for your comments.</p> <p>lol well... no ranger comments because they have quit... mmmm well I haven't (yet).  Thinking, tho.</p> <p>Times like this I wish I had a direct Batphone to Rijacki.  </p> <p>If I burn every loam I have into bottles - Burn every bottle I have into some potion / poison, will this stockpile of potions and poisons exist afterwards in some sort of new form, or will they go *poof* into nothingness?  Maybe I'm not reading between the lines, I think I did notice she said that stockpile of loams is worthless.  so mathmatically, if L is loams and B is bottles and P is potions/poisons am I correct in writing -</p> <p>L=B=P=0</p> <p>or correct my math one of you guys, I failed.  :smileysurprised:</p> <p>Thanks for all yer inputs.</p> <hr></blockquote>My understanding is this:- All potions/poisons made prior to LU24 will remain as-is.- All components made prior to LU24 (such as glassware) will be usable in the new recipes.  An example of this is a rare vial that you have made prior to LU24 will substitute for the (adept iii) by-product dust  (in T7, it's scintillating dust) for making a rare potion/poison.- What HAS been said in the alchy boards is that, after LU24 is released,<font color="#ffff00"> the number of charges you can make per loam will decrease.</font>  <font color="#ff0000">So, it would be best to make your potions and poisons now so that you have more charges per raw.</font></div><hr></blockquote>Plus, since certain effects will be completely removed after LU#24, if you want a specific effect (such as a mitigation potion or a DD+DoT poison), make it before 6/14.</div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> Resists potions are going poof aren't they?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>long answer: In T7 there are ward potions instead of resist potions giving a higher amount which is "warded".  This means the damage is totally blocked until the damage amount exceeds the ward's absobtion at which time the ward drops completely.   <BR><BR>short answer: yes<BR><BR>additional answer: not all tiers are even going to get the wards.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I still use T6 resist potions at raids, instead of T7 ward potions.  The T6 resist potions and T7 ward potions do not stack with each other.</P> <P>So the question is, which is better, a ward potion that will ward against ~1k damage, one time, or a resist potion that will increase two different resist types by ~600 for a half hour?</P> <P>The resist potion, of course.  The ward potions aren't even worth using for practical reasons at raids, in my opinion.  Raid mobs don't AE once, and that's it.  They AE continously until killed, usually at least 3 to 12 times during a fight.  The amount warded by a ward potion is nominal when compared to a players total health (a tank in my guild will have ~13k health raid buffed, I'll have between 9k and 10k as a shaman).</P> <P>The bottom line is, I can switch out gear and such to increase my resists for a particular encounter.  It was nice to increase my resists a bit more for an encounter with a potion, because the potion would last the duration of the encounter.  It's not worth the trouble to use ward potions, since they only prevent a tiny amount of damage, one time.</P> <P>On the subject of major nerfs to alchemists, let's not forget that rare cold/heat and disease/poison resist potions were the top sellers, along with rare STA potions, during the DoF expansion.  At least they were my top sellers, and by far, not just by a little bit.  All those three potion types are deleted by LU 24 for all tiers.  </P> <P>This really does kill the market for many alchemists, like myself, who made their living with potions, which was my specialty during the DoF expansion until KoS was released.  Beginning in KoS, the primary component needed to make potions became so hard to get that it is no longer feasible for an alchemist to specialize in rare potions.  The real problem is not that we lost the best selling potion types from earlier tiers, IMO.  Many of the new rare potions are very good, and are highly valued and desired by players.  The real problem is the rarity of dust, and that most of our consumers have become educated to ask for their dust back when we make spells now, since the dust is very hard to get and has a high resale value on the market.  </P> <P>It's hard to get dust to make rare potions in resale quantities now even by advertising that you will make free spells for players if they let you keep the dust, and that is for several reasons.  </P> <P>First, as Rijacki points out, Spongy Loam is too rare, and people just aren't getting as many fighter spells and ca's made in KoS as they did in DoF because of this rarity.  When the average Spongy Loam sells for 4 plat, and the average corresponding Master 1 spell sells for 8 plat, I think most players will wait and try to buy the master so they don't waste what they spent on the Adept III.  </P> <P>Second, the maximum potion charges you can get by making a spell now is ten, down from 21 total potion charges before. </P> <P>Third, to get ANY business, ALL the high level alchemists I see offer to make spells FREE if they can keep the dust.  It's hard to compete with free.  </P> <P>IMO, based on this rarity, if only 2 or 3 alchemists were making all the fighter spells and ca's on a server, they would still have trouble getting enough dust to fully stock a trader with a full selection of all available potions and poisons in reasonable quantities.</P> <P>So the upcoming changes are a big nerf to the lower tiers for lower level alchemists, make no mistake about that.<BR></P>

[Hukklebuk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Slinkie wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Squirrelbite wrote:<div></div> <p>Thanks all for your comments.</p> <p>lol well... no ranger comments because they have quit... mmmm well I haven't (yet).  Thinking, tho.</p> <p>Times like this I wish I had a direct Batphone to Rijacki.  </p> <p>If I burn every loam I have into bottles - Burn every bottle I have into some potion / poison, will this stockpile of potions and poisons exist afterwards in some sort of new form, or will they go *poof* into nothingness?  Maybe I'm not reading between the lines, I think I did notice she said that stockpile of loams is worthless.  so mathmatically, if L is loams and B is bottles and P is potions/poisons am I correct in writing -</p> <p>L=B=P=0</p> <p>or correct my math one of you guys, I failed.  :smileysurprised:</p> <p>Thanks for all yer inputs.</p> <hr></blockquote>My understanding is this:- All potions/poisons made prior to LU24 will remain as-is.- All components made prior to LU24 (such as glassware) will be usable in the new recipes.  An example of this is a rare vial that you have made prior to LU24 will substitute for the (adept iii) by-product dust  (in T7, it's scintillating dust) for making a rare potion/poison.- What HAS been said in the alchy boards is that, after LU24 is released,<font color="#ffff00"> the number of charges you can make per loam will decrease.</font>  <font color="#ff0000">So, it would be best to make your potions and poisons now so that you have more charges per raw.</font></div><hr></blockquote>Plus, since certain effects will be completely removed after LU#24, if you want a specific effect (such as a mitigation potion or a DD+DoT poison), make it before 6/14.</div><hr></blockquote>well at least a pebble of good news in this puddle of mud for Alchemist's...  my alchy would like to say "Thank you SOE, may I have another!"  <span>:smileymad:</span></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>So what your all saying here is:  It's going to cost even more money to play a predator or rouge.</P> <P>This blows.</P> <P> </P>

[Keldo]

Not really, actually in reality it should be cheaper.  Here is an overview of what is gained and lost from a normal adventurer point of view. Gained (poison): - Power Tap + Power drain - Health Tap + Damage - Threat reduction poison - Direct damage poisons with no dot component - STR with melee skills debuff - AGI with defensive skills debuff - INT with casting skills debuff - WIS with all magical resist debuff Gained (potion): - Crit increase % potions - Ward potions (debateable usefuless) - Cure potions that actually cure raid mobs effects on teir Gained (overall) - More charges / duration per inventory slot (stack to 20) Lost (poison) - Adeste's Distruption (cheap, effective damage poison compared to T7 rare) - Strike of Glox (crush, pierce resist debuf) - Curse of the Djinn (slash resist debuff) - Phantasmic Visions (stun poison, made into a rare) - Lots of other worthless stuff that no one really used anyway - Mez poison (lol) note that all poisons listed as lost are T6 ONLY and don't exist in previous teirs Lost (potion) - Mitigation buffs of all types - Dual Stat buffs - Sta buffs That's the basic idea of it.  Overall what is being lost is easy access to rare poisons and potions.  They will actually be rare now.  Common poisons now will not only be viable, they will be less expensive, more useful and take up less inventory space.  So from a poison user perspective you gain a lot from this patch.  The people that lose are the people that 'forget' to give an Ad3 loam to the customer then turn around and mark it up 3000% when they make a rare poison/potion out of it. <div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Fury reporting:</P> <P> </P> <P>- Call of storms: got a nice fix it now does actually good dmg in some situations</P> <P>-Ring of fire: got a nerf its recast is doubled, good and bad change is it now aggroes mobs on caster not on the ring, still dies in ae in 1 shot, stacks with forge of ro.</P> <P>-Irritating/maddenin swarm: this useless debuff was even made more useless, the manad drain was taken away and now it debuffs casting skills by about 30 but after parsing fights using this spell there was no difference in how many times a mob hit/missed me with spells. My bet is this spell will only be useful to cast on green/grey mobs which this spell will make them see me as red/orange but then again who needs to debuff green/grey mobs?Against blues it did nothing so yeah maybe against green mobs.</P> <P> </P> <P>So we gained 1 we got shafted on 2 tho one of those 2 already was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Please give us back our stiffle instead of maddening swarm this spell is so useless it isnt even funny.</P>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR>The people that lose are the people that 'forget' to give an Ad3 loam to the customer then turn around and mark it up 3000% when they make a rare poison/potion out of it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes my friend, the alchemist loses.  </P> <P>It has been longstanding tradition, since the beginning of EQ2, for alchemists to retain the loam (now dust) as part of the fee for the service provided when making a fighter spell.  There was never any "forgetting" about this, except with respect to many fighters, who somehow now "forget" that many alchemists never charged fighters to make spells, we did it free, kept the loam, and made our money that way.</P> <P>So there was never anything approaching a 3000% markup, at least not from anyone I knew selling T6 rare potions for 8 g for a 7 charge potion, which was always the going price on Blackburrow.  Add up all the fuel costs, PLUS the fair market value of all the raws needed to make both an AD3 AND a potion - I don't believe that will approach anywhere near 3000% markup per potion, when the potion is sold for 8 g.</P> <P>But in the future, I'll be sure not to forget to charge 30 g to make AD3s, then I'll never need to forget who the dust belongs to.  </P> <P>I very much agree with what you say about potions as a whole being better now than before, and your comments about them now being truly rare, whereas before they were fairly common and used by most high end raiders like standard equipment.</P> <P>But this completely destroys the market for Alchemists.  Who cares if we can make better stuff, if we have no customers and nothing to sell.<BR></P>

[Keldo]

Well, not everyone was as ethical as you were about it.  Some of them just kept the loam and the customer was ignorant to the fact that it existed as a byproduct. And I spent 16-21g on average for a T6 rare potion during T6, yours were cheaper, but not always the ones I was after, and others were much higher in price. Either way, problem is solved for me because I can make my own (thanks wurmslayer!). <div></div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keldoth wrote:<BR>Well, not everyone was as ethical as you were about it.  Some of them just kept the loam and the customer was ignorant to the fact that it existed as a byproduct.<BR><BR>And I spent 16-21g on average for a T6 rare potion during T6, yours were cheaper, but not always the ones I was after, and others were much higher in price.<BR><BR>Either way, problem is solved for me because I can make my own (thanks wurmslayer!).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ya, I was thinking that sages and jewelers kept them too.  And dang, you should told me if you wanted different ones, too late now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Bi]

furies are already the [Removed for Content] of the healer classes.Dont get me wrong, I love my fury, and his heals are great being so fast; but compared to other healers; we lost the dps advantage, and our buffs/debuffs are sorely lacking - added to the fact that our 'elite' ancient spells arent really that great. RoF being nerfed, call of stuns being awful(tho at least thats being buffed)tbh when I look at what I bring to a group, I dont see much that another class cant bring and more. its just sad that without max int line (and no raiding fury will have max int line) a cleric does comparable dps, I miss the level 22-24 days when our nuke went off and everyone went 'woah'tbh I'm having more fun with my wiz atm; the fury just doesnt do it for me anymoreto the point tho: furies arent being nerfed, and being buffed slightly, but by no means being brought up to par. I think it's sad that after the massive 'class balancing' of LU13 they brought in AAs which completely negated many of the changes.<div></div>