The real reason they are nerfing everybody in LU24 [Archive]

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Jooneau

05-27-2006, 03:21 AM

They are nerfing everybody so that they can give us back some of the power they took away in the new Echoes of Faydwer Achievements. That is my prediction for EQ2. They did this A LOT in EQ1 with AA's.Example: Nerf duration and recast timers to almost unusable times. Then itemize with +duration, -recast items and make new Achievement skills that do the same. The end result is that you will be back close to, but not quite, where you started pre-nerf, except that you had to pay for the next expansion or two, camp these "focus items" for (SOE billable) months, and spend (SOE billable) hours grinding Achievement experience to get there.All that stuff in the past about them designing the game for 200 levels of advancement is poppycock. They've already admitted to running into percentage caps at some buff spells, and we're not even past level 70 yet. It'a only a matter of time before they start putting in "mitigation" to compensate for their inability to design a game to scale up properly.Message Edited by Jooneau on 05-26-2006 07:25 PM

MadLordOfMilk

05-27-2006, 05:04 AM

<div></div>Yeah, 'cuz obviously, whenever classes are nerfed in this game (see: virtually every other patch, to some extent), it's all about how much money they can make.(end sarcasm)

Maroger

05-27-2006, 07:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote: They are nerfing everybody so that they can give us back some of the power they took away in the new Echoes of Faydwer Achievements. That is my prediction for EQ2. They did this A LOT in EQ1 with AA's. Example: Nerf duration and recast timers to almost unusable times. Then itemize with +duration, -recast items and make new Achievement skills that do the same. The end result is that you will be back close to, but not quite, where you started pre-nerf, except that you had to pay for the next expansion or two, camp these "focus items" for (SOE billable) months, and spend (SOE billable) hours grinding Achievement experience to get there. All that stuff in the past about them designing the game for 200 levels of advancement is poppycock. They've already admitted to running into percentage caps at some buff spells, and we're not even past level 70 yet. It'a only a matter of time before they start putting in "mitigation" to compensate for their inability to design a game to scale up properly. Message Edited by Jooneau on 05-26-2006 07:25 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I do agree with your point about the similarity with EQ1 AA's -- I never liked that duplicity on the part of the developers and I see that happening with this LU24. I honestly don't believe in their reasons and I think they merely represent the best they could think up to give as an excuse for all the nerfs to all the classes. There is really no way they can explain the gratuitous nerfs no matter how hard they try -- there are cases where it is better for the financial health of game to let some imbalance occur. If you make your player base too made they will up and leave and LOTRO will be out this fall.

MadLordOfMilk

05-27-2006, 09:44 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>...There is really no way they can explain the gratuitous nerfs no matter how hard they try -- there are cases where it is better for the financial health of game to let some imbalance occur...<hr></blockquote>SOE balances by lowering numbers, not raising them... it's easier, and it keeps numbers from spiraling out of control.Uhh... so, it's annoying that they make changes "to make money"... yet... they should leave imbalance... to make money? Which is it, changes or no changes? :smileytongue:

Maroger

05-27-2006, 07:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadLordOfMilk wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: ... There is really no way they can explain the gratuitous nerfs no matter how hard they try -- there are cases where it is better for the financial health of game to let some imbalance occur... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>SOE balances by lowering numbers, not raising them... it's easier, and it keeps numbers from spiraling out of control. Uhh... so, it's annoying that they make changes "to make money"... yet... they should leave imbalance... to make money? Which is it, changes or no changes? :smileytongue: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Some nerfs are better left undone -- so one class has tons of DPS -- do you really want to make everyone who plays that class so mad they leave the game? If you nerf a players ability to play a class ( especially one they have been developing for more than a year) you are going to have a player that will be really angry and probably quit. Is that really worth nerfing a class to lose money? It is much smarter to raise the MOB AI and toughen them up than to nerf the players -- you are mad about a class stunning mobs -- make the more more resistable to stuns -- don't nerf the players ability. SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!!

Kasandria

05-27-2006, 07:45 PM

I have said for a long time now that they raise the level caps then nerf your abilities to the point that the content really doesn't have to be any better/harder/higher level. By the time they are done, your new capped level is pretty much the same as your old capped level and they can then say.. hey look you can advance ten more levels!

enc

05-27-2006, 10:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's where you're wrong. Nerfing is not the easy way for a gaming company, it's the hard way. You know people are gonna be upset, people are gonna leave, etc... But you think it needs to be done for the game's future. That's a very dangerous bet, and it is in NO WAY the easy way.

Cynto

05-27-2006, 10:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's where you're wrong. Nerfing is not the easy way for a gaming company, it's the hard way. You know people are gonna be upset, people are gonna leave, etc... But you think it needs to be done for the game's future. That's a very dangerous bet, and it is in NO WAY the easy way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think he meant that it was the "easy way" from a coding/developers standpoint, since it is likely easier to nerf players and change a few numbers than it is to code some new AI for all the mobs in an expansion or the game.

graxnip

05-27-2006, 11:02 PM

sheesh already..the devs are building upon years of experience with eq1, that game is a classic example of how out of control things can get if you balance upward. the planes of power expansion made raid guilds insanely powerful (between outrageously sick gear and AA's) it lead to the gates of discord expansion ... people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed then that the whole expansion was made for raiders/elementally geared folk. that the mobs in that expansion did insane damage and that the whole expansion was worthless to the casual player. (imo that was BS my non elemental guild there had np in those zones) but they created a huge rift between a raid geared toon and a casual geared toon. they know what mistakes were made in that game - they see the same issues arising here and I think they are handling it the best way that they can atm. I play a warlock, I am happy and also ticked at some of my class changes in the upcoming LU. I do not play on test, as I dont have the time to play more than my 2 mains. but I have already started to adapt on my loss of stuns on live, and I dont have as much of an issue soloing as it sounded on paper. ( i have changed my tactics, it took me a whole 5 minutes to figure out a new strategy for pulling blue to yellow solo grouped mobs encounters- and i do not have any raid gear and at best adept 3 spells) and with the introduction of 2 aoe deaggro spells, I actually am liking what i am seeing. the only people who have a right to REALLY complain about this LU as I read it are Troubadours, but hopefully the devs will rebalance them as they did with warlocks from 24a to 24c. look overall they are constantly in a lose lose situation. half the people will be [Removed for Content], half the people can accept the changes - you can never make everyone happy. should SOE have thought of this in the years that eq2 was in development prior to its 2004 launch - yes - they tried to at least but obviously failed given the class changes that have been put in since launch.. but there is no way to anticipate the entire future of the game while they are making it.<div></div>

Ebjelen

05-27-2006, 11:23 PM

SoE does not bill by the hour, it's a flat monthly rate with several discount options available. If you don't want your arguments picked apart, don't exaggerate.

enc

05-28-2006, 05:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's where you're wrong. Nerfing is not the easy way for a gaming company, it's the hard way. You know people are gonna be upset, people are gonna leave, etc... But you think it needs to be done for the game's future. That's a very dangerous bet, and it is in NO WAY the easy way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think he meant that it was the "easy way" from a coding/developers standpoint, since it is likely easier to nerf players and change a few numbers than it is to code some new AI for all the mobs in an expansion or the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Then, maybe it is the easiest way, but it's not the right one. You can't change mob's AI and expect them to be better against group almost PERMA stunning them. If you let groups have that ability, the only thing you can do is make the mobs immune, or introduce immunity timers even for heroics. And that's really unhealthy for a game to have immunities against player abilities, it gives no place to strategy: you just can't use your spell. It's always better to nerf that ability and therefor still let the players use it, but more intelligently, at critical times.

Sir Blig

05-28-2006, 05:44 AM

there are nice ways of doing things and there are SOE ways if they did by weekly updates and kept each class change to just a few few abilitys max 3 and changes to and 1% to 5% max and from the get go said the system as with any system has to be tuned then they could at least ween skills away and chances are far fewer would car as each set of changes would be small and hardly effect and this would be re-infoced bu playing over time and seing that each update actualy was not earth shaking, and so trust would be earned yada yada, but op has a point i have seen it in my time here, a month of two before any $$ release they beat things down and release a uber update only to within a month or two beat it down because it is too powerefull

-Aonein-

05-28-2006, 06:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That's where you're wrong. Nerfing is not the easy way for a gaming company, it's the hard way. You know people are gonna be upset, people are gonna leave, etc... But you think it needs to be done for the game's future. That's a very dangerous bet, and it is in NO WAY the easy way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think he meant that it was the "easy way" from a coding/developers standpoint, since it is likely easier to nerf players and change a few numbers than it is to code some new AI for all the mobs in an expansion or the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Then, maybe it is the easiest way, but it's not the right one. You can't change mob's AI and expect them to be better against group almost PERMA stunning them. If you let groups have that ability, the only thing you can do is make the mobs immune, or introduce immunity timers even for heroics. And that's really unhealthy for a game to have immunities against player abilities, it gives no place to strategy: you just can't use your spell. It's always better to nerf that ability and therefor still let the players use it, but more intelligently, at critical times. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Huh? SO you cant improve a mobs resistability vs mental effects? Or you cant increase the resistability per quaility increase of the Spell / CA itself? ie: Adept III = 30%, make it 20% or hell even 15%. I want you to stop and think about how many mobs are in the game compaired to characters, 24 charcters vs hundreds of mobs, what do you think is easier to do in any sort of decent time frame? Nerf characters. There simply is no need for a game breaking change like this when they can put some more effort into changing the AI or the way resists work. Hell they could even leave things like they are, increase the resistability rates on the mobs and decrease the success rates on the spells / CA's and still make Enchanters spells effect Epics and nothing would be overpowered, it would just mean no one would have to go through all the trouble of yet another core mechanic game change. I dont know about you, but if i had a choice where i could spend more time improving something without the need to nerf everyone in the entire game to keep players and keep them happy, i would, i wouldnt go out of my way to make my job easier to make players unhappy, what sort of business plan is that? In SoE's *vision*, this is better for the overall health of the game, and the players they constantly drive away with each and every LU, they will make up over time because they are doing these changes for the health of the game right? That explains why they had to merge servers, right? For the health of the game?

Iseabeil

05-28-2006, 06:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sir Blight wrote: there are nice ways of doing things and there are SOE ways if they did by weekly updates and kept each class change to just a few few abilitys max 3 and changes to and 1% to 5% max and from the get go said the system as with any system has to be tuned then they could at least ween skills away and chances are far fewer would car as each set of changes would be small and hardly effect and this would be re-infoced bu playing over time and seing that each update actualy was not earth shaking, and so trust would be earned yada yada, but op has a point i have seen it in my time here, a month of two before any $$ release they beat things down and release a uber update only to within a month or two beat it down because it is too powerefull <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Im sorry but I couldnt disagree more. The playerbase hates what they percive as nerfs and having pre-planned weekly nerfs would even <beep> *me* off, somethin they havent quite managed to do after me playing EQ2 since 5 months before original launch. Having to make minor adjustments to gameplay every week would loose much more customers then bringing out the sledgehammer once in a while.

Sir Blig

05-28-2006, 08:07 AM

<DIV>Well the change some of us are facing ant no sledgehammer it's a nuclear warhead that is targeted to go off directly on a major part of what is class defining in the class I play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We didn't even care about the tiny change to another spell,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But how can SOE fix something with LU13 then with KoS provide a higher level of the spell based on the same rules then come along in LU24 and nuke that spell leaving it just over 98% less that it was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And most if not all chose that class because the very spells they are using warheads on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey maybe if SOE had waited another year before releasing the game all this would have been mute anyway maybe then they would not have had to make such sweeping changes.. </DIV>

Kasar

05-28-2006, 10:15 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div> </div> <div>But how can SOE fix something with LU13 then with KoS provide a higher level of the spell based on the same rules then come along in LU24 and nuke that spell leaving it just over 98% less that it was.</div><hr></blockquote>If history repeats itself, troubs might have some modicum of CC by LU 27, if they were supposed to in the first place. It seems to take three or four more "adjustments" to make some classes playable again. After the bard changes in LU 13, I'm not sure anyone knows what the class is supposed to be able to do now.I'm just looking for the classes that're being left alone, I figure it's the only way to play their game, bounce from one class to another as they [Removed for Content] one for a few months while leaving others alone or perhaps even overpowered by comparison for a few months.</div>

Sir Blig

05-28-2006, 05:30 PM

<DIV>yup just a pain as that is what test servers are for and what they should be doing on their test servers and one can laugh at how many times they have been told what the outcome would be and they still release it to the public.</DIV>

Carna

05-29-2006, 03:19 AM

The simple fact is there is no point in rolling in AA abilities if you're then going to nerf everybody because we're all "overpowerd". If most classes have reached the full potential that current game content will support without trivialising it, stop introducing AAs. They have the same thing lined up for the new expansion. I like AAs. I'd just prefer a stable class to develop given the choice.... Here's some AAs... oh you're too powerful, gotta nerf you... eh? Why bother?

05-29-2006, 05:34 AM

Most of the changesThey are 'TWEAKS'Necros and Conjurer are too good, they are nerfed.Enchanters don't have enough to do because other classes can stun/stifle etc. too easily, all stuns/stifles etc. except enchanter's are tweaked.The TROUB changes i'm not too sure about, they seem a lil' extreme to me.People get waaaaaay over the top when something changes don't they.Omgz! I'm no longer easily out doing EVERYONE..Also, tell me how a Defiler is being 'nerfed'?<div></div>

05-29-2006, 05:39 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> enc wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Cynto wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> enc wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Maroger wrote: <div></div> SOE has always taken the easy way out - to nerf players -- I expect those numbers are in some sort of table that is easier to change than the mob behavious so they take the easy way out. I really find their reason for doing this PATHETIC and I absolutely don't believe a word they say. They are just lame excuses!! <hr> </blockquote> That's where you're wrong. Nerfing is not the easy way for a gaming company, it's the hard way. You know people are gonna be upset, people are gonna leave, etc... But you think it needs to be done for the game's future. That's a very dangerous bet, and it is in NO WAY the easy way. <hr> </blockquote>I think he meant that it was the "easy way" from a coding/developers standpoint, since it is likely easier to nerf players and change a few numbers than it is to code some new AI for all the mobs in an expansion or the game. <hr> </blockquote> Then, maybe it is the easiest way, but it's not the right one. You can't change mob's AI and expect them to be better against group almost PERMA stunning them. If you let groups have that ability, the only thing you can do is make the mobs immune, or introduce immunity timers even for heroics. And that's really unhealthy for a game to have immunities against player abilities, it gives no place to strategy: you just can't use your spell. It's always better to nerf that ability and therefor still let the players use it, but more intelligently, at critical times. <hr> </blockquote> Huh? SO you cant improve a mobs resistability vs mental effects? Or you cant increase the resistability per quaility increase of the Spell / CA itself? ie: Adept III = 30%, make it 20% or hell even 15%. I want you to stop and think about how many mobs are in the game compaired to characters, 24 charcters vs hundreds of mobs, what do you think is easier to do in any sort of decent time frame? Nerf characters. There simply is no need for a game breaking change like this when they can put some more effort into changing the AI or the way resists work. Hell they could even leave things like they are, increase the resistability rates on the mobs and decrease the success rates on the spells / CA's and still make Enchanters spells effect Epics and nothing would be overpowered, it would just mean no one would have to go through all the trouble of yet another core mechanic game change. I dont know about you, but if i had a choice where i could spend more time improving something without the need to nerf everyone in the entire game to keep players and keep them happy, i would, i wouldnt go out of my way to make my job easier to make players unhappy, what sort of business plan is that? In SoE's *vision*, this is better for the overall health of the game, and the players they constantly drive away with each and every LU, they will make up over time because they are doing these changes for the health of the game right? That explains why they had to merge servers, right? For the health of the game?<hr></blockquote>AI is not statistical data.AI would be making the NPC players more intelligent.Upgrading their resistance to disease is nothing to do with Artificial Intelligence *The key is within the name*The fact here is simple.You don't LOSE enough in this game</div>

Kurg

05-29-2006, 10:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xaor wrote: Most of the changes They are 'TWEAKS' Enchanters don't have enough to do because other classes can stun/stifle etc. too easily, all stuns/stifles etc. except enchanter's are tweaked. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> And thats not true ... Maybe that would make some sense, but SOE didn´t it that way. :smileymad: ALL mezzes/stuns/stifles from Illusionists and Coecerers are gettin nerfed too. All we Chanters can do now is mezz and stun epics now as well, but all our spells have been made worse against heroics and solo mobs. So... for the possibility to do a little bit against epic´s ("a little bit" = mezz a epic for 12 sec. and after that he is immune for 2 min.) we pay the price of being much worse in groups and solo. I think the price is much to high... :smileymad:

Cynto

05-29-2006, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xaor wrote: Most of the changes They are 'TWEAKS' Necros and Conjurer are too good, they are nerfed. Enchanters don't have enough to do because other classes can stun/stifle etc. too easily, all stuns/stifles etc. except enchanter's are tweaked. The TROUB changes i'm not too sure about, they seem a lil' extreme to me. People get waaaaaay over the top when something changes don't they. Omgz! I'm no longer easily out doing EVERYONE.. Also, tell me how a Defiler is being 'nerfed'? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, individually, all the changes might just be "tweaks". But when they do it all at once like this its what I like to call a "revamp" of the entire charm/mez/stun system. Tweaks are ok, and are expected in an MMO every once in a while, to balance classes, however, a lot of the changes in LU 24 nerf the respective abilities by 50% or more, and in some cases all but remove the ability. If you ask me, that goes above and beyond a tweak. Its almost as if the Devs came out of the back room swinging the biggest nerf bat at anything that looked at them funny with the intent of sorting it all out after the fact. Combine that with the fact that they're doing it to just about every class, if not every class, all at once, and you've got a complete redo of the entire system, which is far more than just tweaking a few things here or there.