Bruiser feedback on test changes... UPDATED.. New Issues

[Gungo]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Test 06/08/06- All hostile spells and arts that stun, mesmerize, root, fear, daze or<BR>stifle their targets will become increasingly more resistible when you<BR>are 20 levels above the spell level.</FONT></P> <P>Ok new issue the Brawler mezz is on a 20 lvl upgrade. We got one at lvl 30 one at 50 but never got one at 70.</P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG>BOOYAH</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Bruiser changes:<BR></STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>- The damage changes to the Savage Blows, Burn Through, and Sucker Punch lines have been reverted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>FEAR AND MEZZ NO LONGER ON SAME TIMER</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Changes:  <FONT color=#ff0000>TEST NOTES IN RED,  </FONT><FONT color=#33ccff>ACTUAL TEST SEVER RESULTS IN BLUE, </FONT>OBSERVATIONS IN WHITE, <FONT color=#33cc00>GREEN REMOVED</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Lowered damage on highest 3 attacks</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>- Bruiser: Savage Blows: Reduced damage.<BR>- Bruiser: Sucker Punch: Reduced damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Savage blows</STRONG>-7.5% reduction</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Kidney Punch</STRONG>- 10% reduction</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00><STRONG>Flaming Lunge</STRONG>- 22.5% reduction</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>-Bruiser: Burn Through: The damage done by the initial hit in the Burn Through line (i.e. Blazing Lunge, Flaming Lunge) has been reduced.<BR>Result:<BR>Old = Initial Hit of 3x the DoT, 1 instant DoT tick, 4 ticks of DoT = 8 x DoT damage<BR>New = Initial Hit of 2.2x the DoT, 0 instant DoT ticks, 4 ticks of DoT = 6.2 x DoT damage<BR>Damage loss = 22.5% minimum, more if you fail to get the full duration (45% if you get no DoT ticks).<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Brawler: Instill Doubt: Reduced fear duration, reduced power cost. Increased Resistibility. Lowered overall break chances.<BR>- Bruiser: Intimidate: Increased Reuse timer to 60 seconds. Increased Resistibility. Reduced Mesmerize duration and power cost.</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Instill Doubt</STRONG>- <FONT color=#33ccff>changed from 15 sec fear 30 sec recast to 6 sec fear 60 sec recast</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Scared Still</STRONG>- <FONT color=#33ccff>changed from 25 sec mezz 30 sec recast to 10 sec mezz 60 sec recast</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>AND SHARES THE SAME TIMER AS INSTILL DOUBT LINE</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>ONLY CLASS IN GAME WITH 2 SEPERATE SPELL LINES ON 1 TIMER.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Monk: Instill Doubt - Changed from a Bruiser to a Brawler ability.<BR></FONT><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>- Bruiser: Intimidate - This combat art line now shares its reuse timer with Instill Doubt.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Instill Doubt line given to monks because of lack of CC skills and bruisers having 1 more spell in total (as in amount of spells, but 2 Bruiser spells are NOW ON SAME TIMER)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Mez resistability is now "8% easier" at Adept1.<BR>Mez duration/powercost is now: Intimidate 5.5s/35p, Strong Arm 7.0s/53p, Unnerve 8.5s/71p, Scared Still 10.0s/89p.  Recast is 1m.<BR>Instill Doubt duration/powercost is now 6s/43p.</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Brawler AA: Eagle's Fury: Reduced melee critical chance.</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Eagle's Fury</STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff>- Previously rank 8 was 22% New possible max obtainable 8th rank ~18%</FONT>. <FONT color=#33ccff>Now 2.3% at Rank 1.</FONT>  No idea how it scales: knowing how a particular aa abilitiy scales would actually be useful before I spend aa points on it>.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> - All short knockdowns and many short stuns that were 2s in duration have been changed to a 1.5s duration.<BR>- All knockdowns and many short stuns that were 3-4s in duration have been changed to a 2.5s duration.</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> <BR><FONT color=#ff0000>-Bruiser: The Sucker Punch line now dazes opponents instead of knocking them down.<BR>-Brawler: Eagle Spin: Root Effect added to Change Direction.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Sucker Punch</STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff> changed from 4 sec <STRONG>STUN</STRONG> to 2.5 sec <STRONG>DAZE</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Callous stomp </STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff>changed from 2 sec stun to 1.5 sec stun</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Uppercut</STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff> changed from 4 sec stun to 2.5 sec stun</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff>Steel Fist</FONT></STRONG> changed from 4 sec stun to 2.5 sec stun</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Eagle spin- </STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff>AA changed from 3 sec stun to 2 sec Root/hold direction</FONT></P> <P>The feedback-</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Seriously if bruiser dps was comparable to monks and already situational. WHY ARE THEY SPECIFICALLY TARGETING BRUISERS. No problem with them lowering brawler DPS overall. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Post by Moorgard who stated bruiser and monk had similar DPS with situational high dps marks. -</FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=17046#M17046" target=_blank><FONT color=#33cc00>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=17046#M17046</FONT></A></P> <P>You give us only offensive AA's then when we do to much DPS. You nerf our DPS down. BUT you gave us no DEFENSIVE options. Dont get me started on te utter uselessness of the Defensive skill increaser. And the minimal gains from parry/deflection. They are good, but really not comparable to many other defensive options given to other classes like +mitigation.. </P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>If they continue to nerf our DPS 2 things are needed. 1 our hate proc made into 50% proc rate like monks. 2 Both brawlers to have +mitigation instead of the easily capped defnesive skill. Our aoe agro was already lacking. Nerfing savage blows is a kick to an already dismal area. You will only further reduce our AoE Agro.</FONT>  </P> <P>Nerfing stuns is fine, But stuns are what made us comparable tanks in heroic groups and powerful soloers. WE will need the mitgation AA to be comparable tanks at least in groups again in ordeer to compensate for being hit more often. </P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>You balance CC all around then state well bruisers have 1 more spell then monks and monks lack a CC skill. Ok i have no problem with them giving monks fear. BUt then you place fear and mezz on same timer Effecitvly removing 1 spell from ever being used. WHAT OTHER CLASS HAS 2 SEPERATE SPELL LINES ON THE SAME TIMER. You effectivly removed 1 of our spells from use. When will a bruiser EVER use a 6 sec fear over a 10 sec mezz with the same recast. Please provide soem answers to these questions. Which you have obviosuly never thought through. REMOVE OUR FEAR COMPLETELY and give us a group fake death or tsunami type skill if you dotn want us having 2 CC skills. Heck i would be happy with a 3 hit stone skin proc instead of fear Or a 100 hp damage shield to help hold multi mob agro that you are now slowly screwing away.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>- Fixed an issue that caused damage transferred by interpose spells to not be affected by wards, mitigation, stoneskin or pool conversions.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Out of all the changes in LU24 this is the only positive change to look forward to an unavoidable 1 time 30 sec recast intercede that now takes into account mitigation. BTW Brawlers are the lowest mitigation tank. Think its about time to give brawlers and crusaders a mitigation AA option like warriors?</P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Comments-</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#33cc00>Is there some internal parses showing bruisers being higher then monks? Because oddly enough the developers who posted prior have said the opposite. That each class was doing similar DPS with situaltionally high DPS.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>They also said they are balancing spells by amount of spells and fail to address the spells on the same recast timer issue. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>If these changes are made in the name of balance. [Removed for Content] is the balance of the issues i am bringing up. An answer would suffice, but i don't expect one because issues like these which have a valid POINT are never addressed. Only the issues they can answer easily w/o rocking the boat are ever addressed. The problem is I don't expect an answer from SOE, because they don't have one.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>THE BEST THING ABOUT LU24 IS I CAN NOW BETRAY TO MONK AT LEAST THEY HAVENT TARGETED MONKS INDIVIDUAL COMBAT ARTS AND DPS. BUT THEY ARE EVEN GETTING HIT WITH THE NERF BAT REGARDING STUNS AND TANKING HEROIC CONTENT. </FONT> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>I have no problems with the stun nerf. I don't, but if developers said and parses show brawlers are doing comparable DPS [Removed for Content] is bruisers getting the individual targeted and unfairly balanced nerfs. How is it fair to say we had the same amount of spells as another yet soem of those spells are unusable. Its like including the illusions an illusionist gets as benefical spells to thier total. It doesnt make any sense. The developers are not creating balance these changes actually created more imbalances between the brawler classes then there was prior. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Just for reference there is over a dozen individually targeted bruiser changes. People complain we are overpowered or that we are the most fun tank. The funniest thing is we are also the least played tank and the least effective tank. We have the poorest agro control especially regarding Aoe Agro. Were also the poorest in regardest to tanking harder (Epic, High physical dam heroic) content. And now our DPS is bound to be worse then monks and possibly Bezerkers. Where is the balance? Where is the reasoning? If i am wrong on any of these parts tell me because afaik prior statements made weaks before these changes show otherwise.. </FONT></P> <P><STRONG>SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS-</STRONG></P> <P>Here are my suggestions to fix bruisers that will currently be unbalanced after the proposed changes on test. There are 3 issues I see hurting bruisers.</P> <P>1) Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf...I recommend a significant brawler mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Replace defensive AA in the AGI Tree.<BR><BR>2) <FONT color=#33cc00>complete uselessness of fear as a spell line.... i recommend they remove fear and</FONT> give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>3) <FONT color=#33cc00>Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of AoE agro.....</FONT> I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU w/o overpowering in solo, group or raid content.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 AM</span>

[Pouncer74]

<P>You give us aa to increase our dps....then nerf our dps.  After the UI, I wonder if Bruisers were better off before the AA at all.  How about you just take away all of our AA and leave everything else the way it was.  </P> <P>Brawlers are the worst raid tank class.  We should be the best dps tank class.  On raids before any nerfs brawlers seem to consistantly parse below all the wiz/war/necro/conj/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/rang.  Often other dps classes parse above us as well.  To parse above anyone else we go offensive and die quickly if we get agro on raids.  </P> <P>The stun nerfs along with with giving monks our fear line was enough.  This nerf to our dps is a bit much I think.</P>

[Allowin]

you are simply drunk if you dont think bruisers needed a nerf. you guys have been 100% overpowered since lu13. and as the lu kept rolling in, it just got worse. brawlers do as much dps as most T1 classes, and yet you want to whine and cry that you should be able to tank better, or have better defensive AA's?want your cake and eat it too?moornoob loved the uberness of the bruiser class. and i guess since he plays a bruiser thats why you guys have went so overpowered for so long. heck, even with the way rangers were dps gods, they didnt last as long as you guys have.make your mind up. bruisers cried that you couldnt tank well. so they gave you better tanking ability, you whined that you needed this and that. so you got more. now your dang near a T1 dps class, who can tank also.but your still crying that you cant chain stun/stifle/fear a mob that you should have no business being able to solo.imo you guys are getting less nerfs than you should. you should have long ago been nerfed.but that goes back to my statement about moornoob playing a bruiser. i just wish somebody who had any say so with sony would have chosen a troubador. then maybe we would be worth something. other than a AF buff bot with dps that makes guardians look like gods<div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Allowin wrote:<BR>you are simply drunk if you dont think bruisers needed a nerf. you guys have been 100% overpowered since lu13. and as the lu kept rolling in, it just got worse. brawlers do as much dps as most T1 classes, and yet you want to whine and cry that you should be able to tank better, or have better defensive AA's?<BR><BR>want your cake and eat it too?<BR><BR>moornoob loved the uberness of the bruiser class. and i guess since he plays a bruiser thats why you guys have went so overpowered for so long. heck, even with the way rangers were dps gods, they didnt last as long as you guys have.<BR><BR>make your mind up. bruisers cried that you couldnt tank well. so they gave you better tanking ability, you whined that you needed this and that. so you got more. now your dang near a T1 dps class, who can tank also.<BR><BR>but your still crying that you cant chain stun/stifle/fear a mob that you should have no business being able to solo.<BR><BR><BR>imo you guys are getting less nerfs than you should. you should have long ago been nerfed.<BR><BR>but that goes back to my statement about moornoob playing a bruiser. i just wish somebody who had any say so with sony would have chosen a troubador. then maybe we would be worth something. other than a AF buff bot with dps that makes guardians look like gods<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Read before you stick your foot in your mouth. I Dont mind them reducing our DPS or reducing stuns as stated in the above thread.</P> <P>I am complainign that bruiser and monks do the same DPS. As stated and linked prior by a developer. Yet they reduced ONLY BRUISER DPS.</P> <P>I am complaining Because they gave monks our CC fear. Because monks lacked CC and had 1 less spell then us. BUT THEY PUT FEAR AND MEZZ ON SAME TIMER MAKING FEAR UNUSABLE EVER. Effectivly giving bruiser 1 less spells then monks.</P> <P>I am Complaining they are reducing Buiser DPS, because they raised our DPS w ONLY DPS OREINTED AA"S . Yet they Never provided DEFENSIVE AA's. </P> <P>I even stated soloing was ovrpowered with stuns, but it made brawlers comparable to plates in heroic fights, not even close in epic fights since stuns are immune with the lack of ANY DEFENSIVE AA's thsi issue will be more pronounced. </P> <P>MY point they raised our DPS with Soley DPS oreinted AA's to both bralwer classes and then specifically targeted BRUISER DPS only becuase of the increased DPS from AA's. </P> <P> </P> <P>Get soem facts instead of spewing more unsubstantiated opinions and completely wrong assumptions. Here is your troubador coorespondent at SoE. So before you go about insulting people. Learn not to post drunk yourself. That way people don't think your the  town idiot posting crap onto forums using you library card to get access to a computer. <P>" The team does not ignore Troubadors.  They ignore me, as I play a Troubador and you folks feel the tail end of their wrath towards me.  =) " <P>Brenlo Bixiebopper<BR>Director of Community Relations<BR><BR>---------------------------------------------<BR>It's a rough life but someone has to live it. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[masakre]

<DIV>heh, some people just shouldn't post if they don't play the class. This is one of those threads, that unless you play the class, and have any idea what Gungo is stating, should just keep your comments to yourself since you obviousely don't understand the valid points he has brought up. I completely agree with the OP. As stated in many posts of mine the monks have the advantage over any bruiser. SOE states dps is relative between the two classes, then nerfs the bruiser dps, and gives the monk the skills the bruiser has that set them apart.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <P>Here are my suggestions to fix bruisers that will currently be unbalanced after the proposed changes on test. There are 3 issues i see hurting bruisers.</P> <P>1) Harder to tank heroic content due to stuns nerf.....I recommend a significant mitigation AA (aprox 600 miti at rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR><BR>2) complete uselessness of fear as a spell line.... i recommend they remove fear and give us a 3 hit stone skin on seperate timer. 1 min duration  3 min recast. (non toggleable, so that the recast starts in beginning)</P> <P>3) Loss of agro due to reduced DPS..additional loss of AoE agro..... I recommend making the bruiser hate proc into 50% proc chance, like the monk proc has.</P> <P>Those 3 changes will fix the 3 issues i see them causing in this LU w/o overpowering in solo, group or raid content. </P></DIV>

[Signal9]

<DIV>My primary alt is a Bruiser, and I have to agree with Gungo 110%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

Yeah and the funny thing about my proposed fixes. It still reduces bruisers DPS, It still removes stun locks (while reducing our strong soloing skills), and it does so w/o nerfing any other classes in the process. But will SOE put those reccomendations into effect. Nope my bet they will nerf monks instead. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV> Just a question:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Does the mez line duration increase from Adept to master?</DIV>

[Gungo]

Yes and there is overlap between tiers. The main reason to upgrade to master is they increased ressit though so mezzing w adept or lesser quality is unreliable at best.

[Bewts]

<font color="#ff3333" size="5">Development team make up your minds. </font> Brawlers give up 1500 mitigation on plate classes in exchange for a non normalized but higher avoidance.  That tradeoff gives plate tanks about a 30% advantage in damage taken over a brawler.  That means brawlers are 30% less effective tanks in extended fights (those over 2 minutes). Because we are 30% less effective at taking damage, we see an increase in our damage outputs.  This is entirely evident in our AA tree options.  The only real defensive skills we got to choose from were minimal upgrades to Defense, Riposte, Parry, and Deflection.  At best we can get 2 of those maximized for a 6% increase in avoidance? Now we see the Bruisers get a damage decrease in combat arts, Monks now have a crowd control skill (WHY?!?!), and all crowd control stuns have been cut by 40% for their duration, exposing us further to the randomness of our avoidance. I've said it all along that grouping Crusaders into the same AA tree, Brawlers into another one and Zerkers/Guards into a third was foolish.  The classes are entirely different and you cannot throw enough skills into one tree to balance both classes of an archetype and give them diverse options.  An entire revamp of the AA trees is needed.  A perfect example is Monks have self FD and group FD with an option via AA's to FD a single target.  Why?  Thats beating a dead horse.  Monks get an AA skill to add 50% haste and 50% DPS for a short period but self buffed a monk is already at 100% haste.  Why why why would they spend half their AA skills for 50% DPS that a coercer or inquisitor could provide? If you really want to look at DPS tiers, I've always wondered why exactly fighters could not be tier 1 DPS.  Wizards and Warlocks should be the representatives from the mages, Assassins, Rangers from the scouts with Monks and Bruisers coming from the Fighters.  Granted a more casual or less developed or badly played Brawler could easily fit into Tier 2 DPS just as a well played Tier 2 DPS could replace a brawler in the bottom of Tier 1.  AA trees would allow these classes to jump tiers easily or to maintain their position due to lack of gear.  As it stands, the ONLY option brawlers had in the endgame was to focus on DPS, hence why we sit amongst the top DPS classes.  We weren't provided with a valid option to develop a defensive monk or bruiser that lessened the 30% advantage plate classes had.  Especially when the top plate tank, guardians got an AA choice to further extend that 30% advantage. <div></div>

[RallyVale]

Would've been a lot better if you were complaining about your own nerfs, even if there wasn't any good reason to. Don't understand why you went and researched, then wrote 3 pages of crap to try and get another class nerfed. That's pretty dumb. <div></div>

[Jerr]

<P>I don't play a Bruiser, but my friend/guildie does and we Duo together often.</P> <P>I play a Necro.</P> <P>Two comments</P> <P>1.  Don't see why they are messing with your DPS.  I beat my friends DPS always and never thought his was too much.  I do have to heal him quite a bit (necro 52), so I have a player heal.  When he gets hit it takes a big chunk out of his HP.  I see no reason why they would lower your DPS-if he was close to me, which he isn't, then maybe-but his DPS is not high enough to worry about.</P> <P>2.  Allowin needs to troll somewhere else-maybe the local refuse disposal site.  His post was completely inflammatory and worthless.</P> <P>Hope they see the light and remove your DPS Nerf before going live.</P> <P>Cheers,</P> <P>Jerril</P> <P> </P>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerril wrote:<BR> <P>I don't play a Bruiser, but my friend/guildie does and we Duo together often.</P> <P>I play a Necro.</P> <P>Two comments</P> <P>1.  Don't see why they are messing with your DPS.  I beat my friends DPS always and never thought his was too much.  I do have to heal him quite a bit (necro 52), so I have a player heal.  When he gets hit it takes a big chunk out of his HP.  <FONT color=#ff6600>I see no reason why they would lower your DPS-if he was close to me, which he isn't, then maybe-but his DPS is not high enough to worry abo</FONT>ut.</P> <P>2.  Allowin needs to troll somewhere else-maybe the local refuse disposal site.  His post was completely inflammatory and worthless.</P> <P>Hope they see the light and remove your DPS Nerf before going live.</P> <P>Cheers,</P> <P>Jerril</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If bruiser DPS was left unchanged in LU24, would you still say the same ? Or did you miss that necro DPS is getting nerfed ?</P>

[TheSummoned]

What you guys that don't play a bruiser have to ask yourself, what do bruisers offer a raid that they shine in? <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>What you guys don't understand is I Don't care that they are lowering our stuns, our DPS, and our CC. I am [Removed for Content] they are gutting the MEAT of my class. FIGHTER. In specific. AGRO CONTROL, PREVENTION/ABSORBING DAMAGE, AND PUTTIGN 2 SPELLS 1 TIMER. Thats it</P> <P>Bruisers are already dismal at agro control, severe DPS reduction= NO AGRO. It a challange atm to hold agro in groups, especially vs multi mobs.</P> <P>Damage prevention/absorbtion. Brawlers are notoriously the worse at absorbing damage... stuns would allow bralwers to tank well in groups. CLEARLY evident in the fact that vs epics brawlers are a poor tank, but vs heorics we are generally decent. WHY BEcause epics were immune to stuns and had hard hitting physical damage. </P> <P>and finally i am [Removed for Content] by a developers comment that they are balancing spells by the amount of spells each class had then screw BRUISERS as the ONLY class in game with 2 spells on seperate lines on the SAME timer.</P> <P>I AM NOT CALLING FOR ANY NERFS to ANY class.</P> <P>I alreayd suggested Proposed fixes not involving screwing over everyone. I want them to fix a class they intend to effectivly break. These changes will make bruisers worse DPS then Monks and possible zerkers. AND these changes will further make brawlers worse tanks in groups compared to other fighters. SO tell me where is the Balance.</P> <P>This is the IN TESTING FEEDBACK FORUM. These are the Results i SEE on TEST. </P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RallyVale wrote:<BR>Would've been a lot better if you were complaining about your own nerfs, even if there wasn't any good reason to. Don't understand why you went and researched, then wrote 3 pages of crap to try and get another class nerfed. That's pretty dumb.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um Seems you didn't read the thread since it only related to BRUISER changes. Were there overlaps into BRAWLER skills? YES. BUT i Specifically then said i dont want them nerfing MONKS. I Even offered suggestions to fix what SOE is deciding to BREAK on Bruisers.

[Gungo]

<P>Let me explain the issue of agro control as simply as i can. 1 point of hate equals 1 point of damage. In order for a fighter to hold agro his +hate and +damage must equal other classes + hate and +Damage. Now hate is derived from several abilities taunts, heals, damage basically. Soem spells like mezz have an innate and unseen +hate modifier. This is why you sometimes see in patch notes things liek reduced hate on coercer charm. Or something similar. All fighters whether they be gaurd paladin or bruiser had the exact same group taunt and single target taunt in regards to hate points. Now a bruiser <STRONG>had </STRONG>good single target agro, because of the single target DPS. A bruiser had poor aoe agro because he had 2 aoe's and 1 aoe taunt. 1 aoe atk was a variable attack that did from ~200-1600 damage at master 1/ 90 sec recast (is getting nerfed in lu24). and we had another aoe atk that did ~200-700 dam and master 1/60 sec recast. Brawlers get no buffs and 1 90sec heal to generate addtional agro. How will it ever be possible for a brawler with reduced DPS to hodl agro on a wizard with 15k ice comets or 20 k fusions. Or warlocks w thier aoe dps. </P> <P>Is there reasoning behind reducing bruisers aoe dps that is already dismal. we cant syphon hae like paladins we cant reduce hate liek guard.we dotn have the gaurds defensive hate proc on all mobs hitting us.  We cant put out aoe dps liek zerkers. we dont have the fire breath like monks or have the 50% hate proc. we dont consecrate like paladins or have the aoe spells of SK's. Do you see where i am getting at? Because they are reducing our dps (which was our hate) because we did to much DPS. But failed to raise our taunts or agro.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 AM</span>

[Zigmun]

<P>Agree 100%</P> <P>Are we supposed to be similar to Monks? We have similar dps (as admitted by developers) so then why do we not have the same group and raid utility?</P> <P>Are we supposed to be similar yet " different" from Monks? Then what do we as a class "get" to compensate us for the fact that Monks have better raid and group utility over Bruisers?</P> <P>Dev's why all the hate for the Bruiser class? What is your vision for us in relation to the Monk class, because right now I don't see it.</P> <P> </P>

[Quicksilver74]

<DIV>I hope the people who made these changes die.  painfully. </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Is there reasoning behind reducing bruisers aoe dps that is already dismal. we cant syphon hae like paladins we cant reduce hate liek guard.we dotn have the gaurds defensive hate proc on all mobs hitting us.  We cant put out aoe dps liek zerkers. we dont have the fire breath like monks <FONT color=#ffff00>or have the 50% hate proc.</FONT> we dont consecrate like paladins or have the aoe spells of SK's. Do you see where i am getting at? Because they are reducing our dps (which was our hate) because we did to much DPS. But failed to raise our taunts or agro.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Correct me if I am wrong.  But Bruisers do have a hate proc that is 25% (with an extra thrown into the proc, damage I believe).

[Bewts]

Yes, they do.  Monks have a similar one that is all hate, no damage.  Thing is that it is only versus one target so in order to maintain hate you have to cycle through all the mobs of an encounter to establish enough hate that anyone AEing doesn't take aggro. <div></div>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Chogar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gungo wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Is there reasoning behind reducing bruisers aoe dps that is already dismal. we cant syphon hae like paladins we cant reduce hate liek guard.we dotn have the gaurds defensive hate proc on all mobs hitting us.  We cant put out aoe dps liek zerkers. we dont have the fire breath like monks <font color="#ffff00">or have the 50% hate proc.</font> we dont consecrate like paladins or have the aoe spells of SK's. Do you see where i am getting at? Because they are reducing our dps (which was our hate) because we did to much DPS. But failed to raise our taunts or agro.</p> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:32 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Correct me if I am wrong.  But Bruisers do have a hate proc that is 25% (with an extra thrown into the proc, damage I believe).<hr></blockquote>Exactly, monks master proc is 450ish hate at 50%, bruiser master proc is 420ish with 120-150dmg (1dmg = 1 hate) at 25% and our DPS is being nerfed, even though monks already hold aggro better and have very simular DPS to bruisers. That's where the problem lies and what Gungo is trying to point out. Now, I don't think any bruiser would like to see monks nerfed, so Gungo is trying to come up with a sollution to raise our aggro managment without breaking the game mechanics or summoning a nerf upon other classes. But I do agree that 50% is a bit overboard, raise it like to 38% or so.<div></div>

[Bewts]

For a monk: 100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate For a brusier: 100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate The problem is that because they get 3000 damage from the procs out of every 100 swings they skew their DPS numbers.  I do think many of the changes to bruiser are unwarranted and I'm not clearly sold that this change is necessary.  There are better options to adjust the Bruiser/Monk balance than sharing a fear/mezz skill and changing what timers are shared <div></div>

[J4k]

<P>< votes make monks and bruiser dps and throw away tanking. 6 different types of tanking classes is just dumb and has always been dumb specially with the size of raids being 24. maybes in EQ1 with a 72 person raid it would have made a little more sense. Bruisers WERE advertised as dps  when the game was released despite what you may think and what the devs posted a few months later. Monks were advertised more toward tanking</P> <P>Bruiser - Bruisers are powerful thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents. They have transformed their bodies into <STRONG>BRUTAL DAMAGING WEAPONS - </STRONG>attribute bonuse = 5str and 2agi</P> <P>Monks - Monks are discipled combatants who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and deliver a clean and efficient counterattack- Attribute bonuse = 5agi 2str.</P> <P>That is what soes OFFICIAL little book said along with there website and everything else describing the class at the release of the game. They then a while later decide lets change there little desciptions and have devs post. nono they are fighters so they have to be tanks. They then take away subcllasses etc so in my eyes we woudnt fall under being a  "Fighter" anymore and have to follow this little rule that all fighters must be a tank. There new description of the classes now read.</P> <P>Bruiser - Bruisers are relentless juggernauts of strength and intimidation who have transformed their bodies into vicious weapons to inflict pain and suffering upon their enemies. Masters of physical combat, bruisers rely upon deflection and agility to avoid attacks as they brutalize their foes.</P> <P>Monk - The monk is a spiritual combatant who believes in philosophy of mind-over-bodie. This mastery of physical prowness allows Monks to hasten their formidable attacks, Purge their bodies of ailments, Move invisibly past there enemies and even fool opponents into believing them to be dead.</P> <P>Now both these new descriptions of the class lean them towards dps more so then before. Bruiser - vicious weapons to inflicty pain and suffering upon their enemies. Now sure how that gets turned into a tank. Sure we can deflect and avoid useing agility but that to me comes off as more of a If you pull aggro situation then pure tanking especially since our only form  of deagro comes from guardians and paladins. Monks hasten themselves and what not also pointing them toward more of the dps then a tank. I Will admit that tanking can be fun every so often but if i and i know alot of other people had to pick between one or the other id go for dps over tanking any day. Like i said 6 different types of tanks is really silly specially in this game and especially for monks/brawlers when a plate tank can have double our mit and get there avoidance [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near close to ours. sometimes 5 - 10% difference in avoidacne and a 1 -2k difference in mitigation. As far as nerfing out dps i really dont understand this. Bruisers are no where near the best dps. We are good depending on gear and if the player is competant but if you stick a competant person infront of many other classes including berserkers they can do much more dps. Heck put a berserker on more then 1 mob ive seen them outdps a summoner. But hey lets nerf a bruiser instead of berserkers. Lets nerf bruisers AA's even then Guardians and berserkers get better dps ones then us! Ive seen guardians showing up on parses with certain AA set ups. And when i say showing up im saying over 1k dps for a guardian. i see berserkers parseing 2k dps but hey watch out for the bruisers whos AE dps doesnt even compare to berserkers and single target isnt a whole lot better to compensate.</P> <P>Ive heared talk of alot of bruisers thinkin about quitting due to the nerfage kinda like a ranger 2.0 or something not sure how many really will but its really sad when 1 patch can make so many people in a certain class angry enough to threaten that. It was pathetic when you nerfed rangers down to pile of crap status but we didnt learn there lets nerf some other classes dps. I honestly think the goal is to slowing kill off certain classes by nerfing so they have a legit reason to just take the class out of the game due to so many people not wanting to play it. Now I will continue playigna  bruiser no matter what the nerfages are no matter how far down the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hole we go but just hope they think before putting in some of the changes.</P>

[Gungo]

Please do not derail my thread into tank vs dps debate. WE ARE FIGHTERS LIVE WITH IT. YOU CHOOSE A FIGHTER CLASS. If you dont see the value in an avoidance tank then you obviously never did raids liek 3 princes, gornaire, taranix, terrrorantula etc. Reroll a scout and leave my class alone. Take your personal opinions and why you want L33t dps out of this thread and go make another one with facts to support your claims other then the, but the FLAVOR text says i am ubber strong. Thank you for your feedback. Now go away.<p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[J4k]

<DIV>out of all those raids you just listed one 1 needs a brawler to tank it and thats the princes for obvious reason. and since when did a brawler become your class? Im sure ive been playing the class alot longer then you so i dont see where you get the right to sit here and act like your the bruiser god. I stand by my belives that we should be more of a dps class. Even entertaining the idea of tanking our majority of aggro comes from our dps. Nerfing that = less aggro for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the "FLAVOR" text that stated us being a dps class. Well if you even played the class in T5 thats what we were. DPS. Then soe got the oo ima fighter crap and started pushing tanking on us. Oh and by the way my avoidance tank. When a guardian can get within 10% of a brawlers avoidance but doublet he mitigation then throw a brawler in that group with his 80+ % avoidance with shake off on the guardian. He will most likly be avoidng much more then you would be. Ive played a bruiser since beta. Ill play a bruiser through the nerfs through the transitions from dps to tank and back again what ever but my opinion is and always will be we should be more of a dps class then tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dragorn - Nektulos</DIV><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 PM</span>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div><blockquote><hr>J4kik wrote:<div></div> <div>out of all those raids you just listed one 1 needs a brawler to tank it and thats the princes for obvious reason. and since when did a brawler become your class? Im sure ive been playing the class alot longer then you so i dont see where you get the right to sit here and act like your the bruiser god. I stand by my belives that we should be more of a dps class. Even entertaining the idea of tanking our majority of aggro comes from our dps. Nerfing that = less aggro for us.</div> <div> </div> <div>And the "FLAVOR" text that stated us being a dps class. Well if you even played the class in T5 thats what we were. DPS. Then soe got the oo ima fighter crap and started pushing tanking on us. Oh and by the way my avoidance tank. <font color="#ffff00">When a guardian can get within 10% of a brawlers avoidance</font> but doublet he mitigation then throw a brawler in that group with his 80+ % avoidance with shake off on the guardian. He will most likly be avoidng much more then you would be. Ive played a bruiser since beta. Ill play a bruiser through the nerfs through the transitions from dps to tank and back again what ever but my opinion is and always will be we should be more of a dps class then tank.</div> <div> </div> <div>Dragorn - Nektulos</div><p>Message Edited by J4kik on <span class="date_text">05-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:40 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Avoidance for a Guardian compared to a Bruiser/Monk is an entirely different animal.  Guardians and the other plate tanks have no 360 degree avoidance so any mob behind us and often to our sides will essentially slap us around like a b***h.  Not only do we lack avoidance checks for any mobs behind us, but we take dmg that's essentially unmitigated as well if a mob is slapping our behinds.  So apples don't equal apples when you're talking about avoidance of Guardians vs Bruisers.  You'd be a fool to have mobs behind you on a regular basis, but often with encounters that have many adds, it's not something that can be remedied as when you try to position the mob, the adds just re-adjust and are behind you again.</div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <DIV>out of all those raids you just listed one 1 needs a brawler to tank it and thats the princes for obvious reason. and since when did a brawler become your class? Im sure ive been playing the class alot longer then you so i dont see where you get the right to sit here and act like your the bruiser god. I stand by my belives that we should be more of a dps class. Even entertaining the idea of tanking our majority of aggro comes from our dps. Nerfing that = less aggro for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the "FLAVOR" text that stated us being a dps class. Well if you even played the class in T5 thats what we were. DPS. Then soe got the oo ima fighter crap and started pushing tanking on us. Oh and by the way my avoidance tank. When a guardian can get within 10% of a brawlers avoidance but doublet he mitigation then throw a brawler in that group with his 80+ % avoidance with shake off on the guardian. He will most likly be avoidng much more then you would be. Ive played a bruiser since beta. Ill play a bruiser through the nerfs through the transitions from dps to tank and back again what ever but my opinion is and always will be we should be more of a dps class then tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dragorn - Nektulos</DIV> <P>Message Edited by J4kik on <SPAN class=date_text>05-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The bruiser is my class as I played a bruiser SINCE BETA as well. I even started gungo when eq2 first came out. But enough about me. I already psoted about DPS and HATE and how it relates in this thread. I told you to leave the dps vs figher crap out of this thread because it does nto relate to the topic. about "BRUISER FEEDBACK ON TEST CHANGES" which is a fairly clear topic. And has nothign to do with the same rehashed DPS vs fighter threads we had in the brawler forums before. SO i requested you make your own post about that becuase it has nothing to do with the topic. I am happy you have an opinion which alreayd has been addressed by the develpers maybe you failed to read it the 10 other times the developers told you. YOU ARE A FIGHTER CLASS. Do we need to rehash these over and over again. Is it that difficult to understand when the developers already told you. YOU ARE A TANK.  But Your opinion has nothign to do with this topic nor does it serve any relevance to the topic. Its rehashing crap already discussed a milion times. So i request instead of derailing a legitimate topic. Go make your own thread provide your own facts. And maybe people will stay on topic of your thread and not post other irrelevant B.S.

[Ep]

I'm pretty sure it's a slow update, but won't have to worry about mez+fear sharing the same timer, i'm pretty sure Bruiser mez will be gone by next LU, not flames or whatever but Lockeye said this in regards to troubs"Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature."So i'm guessing mez gone from bruisers and brawlers can only fear.<div></div>

[MokiCh]

I play a monk on a blue server and a bruiser on PvP, and I agree that this change doesn't seem warranted at all. I don't see why they are giving monks the fear skill. Because we get one less skill than bruisers? I'm perfectly happy with my monk, I dont need fear and I don't want it. Another problem with the reduced stun durations is that now it will be much harder to get behind or flanking a mob to use the sucker punch line. With only a 1.5s stun to work with you have to be very quick to get it off. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>I'm pretty sure it's a slow update, but won't have to worry about mez+fear sharing the same timer, i'm pretty sure Bruiser mez will be gone by next LU, not flames or whatever but Lockeye said this in regards to troubs<BR><BR>"Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature."<BR><BR>So i'm guessing mez gone from bruisers and brawlers can only fear.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I do not claim to know lockeye's future intentions, but i can tell you whts on test right now.</P> <P>Both the bruiser mezz and the wizard mezz are still in game on test as of yesterday.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:23 AM</span>

[J4k]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MokiChan wrote:<BR>I play a monk on a blue server and a bruiser on PvP, and I agree that this change doesn't seem warranted at all. I don't see why they are giving monks the fear skill. Because we get one less skill than bruisers? I'm perfectly happy with my monk, I dont need fear and I don't want it. Another problem with the reduced stun durations is that now it will be much harder to get behind or flanking a mob to use the sucker punch line. With only a 1.5s stun to work with you have to be very quick to get it off.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They are giving monks a new skill ( fear ) and bruisers are basically loseing a skill. Putting mezz and fear on the same reuse timer is pretty silly imo. Why would you fear a mob for 7seconds when you could mezz it for 10? Im not as much upset about the reduction to stuns as i am the reduction to damage of half our combat arts. Blazing lung is completly [Removed for Content] now. Im failing to see the point really. Our 30 second mit buff was gimped down to 10second IF the target is epic .... So basically a class that is OK at dps and OK at tanking is being nerfed down to not even ok at either while bersekers run around still doing more dps then us and tanking better.

[Landiin]

This is so funny, Stop whinning and learn to play your new class. After all thats what you all told us <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> J4kik wrote:<BR> <P>< votes make monks and bruiser dps and throw away tanking. 6 different types of tanking classes is just dumb and has always been dumb specially with the size of raids being 24. maybes in EQ1 with a 72 person raid it would have made a little more sense. Bruisers WERE advertised as dps  when the game was released despite what you may think and what the devs posted a few months later. Monks were advertised more toward tanking</P> <P>Bruiser - Bruisers are powerful thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents. They have transformed their bodies into <STRONG>BRUTAL DAMAGING WEAPONS - </STRONG>attribute bonuse = 5str and 2agi</P> <P>Monks - Monks are discipled combatants who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and deliver a clean and efficient counterattack- Attribute bonuse = 5agi 2str.</P> <P>That is what soes OFFICIAL little book said along with there website and everything else describing the class at the release of the game. They then a while later decide lets change there little desciptions and have devs post. nono they are fighters so they have to be tanks. They then take away subcllasses etc so in my eyes we woudnt fall under being a  "Fighter" anymore and have to follow this little rule that all fighters must be a tank. There new description of the classes now read.</P> <P>Bruiser - Bruisers are relentless juggernauts of strength and intimidation who have transformed their bodies into vicious weapons to inflict pain and suffering upon their enemies. Masters of physical combat, bruisers rely upon deflection and agility to avoid attacks as they brutalize their foes.</P> <P>Monk - The monk is a spiritual combatant who believes in philosophy of mind-over-bodie. This mastery of physical prowness allows Monks to hasten their formidable attacks, Purge their bodies of ailments, Move invisibly past there enemies and even fool opponents into believing them to be dead.</P> <P>Now both these new descriptions of the class lean them towards dps more so then before. Bruiser - vicious weapons to inflicty pain and suffering upon their enemies. Now sure how that gets turned into a tank. Sure we can deflect and avoid useing agility but that to me comes off as more of a If you pull aggro situation then pure tanking especially since our only form  of deagro comes from guardians and paladins. Monks hasten themselves and what not also pointing them toward more of the dps then a tank. I Will admit that tanking can be fun every so often but if i and i know alot of other people had to pick between one or the other id go for dps over tanking any day. Like i said 6 different types of tanks is really silly specially in this game and especially for monks/brawlers when a plate tank can have double our mit and get there avoidance [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near close to ours. sometimes 5 - 10% difference in avoidacne and a 1 -2k difference in mitigation. As far as nerfing out dps i really dont understand this. Bruisers are no where near the best dps. We are good depending on gear and if the player is competant but if you stick a competant person infront of many other classes including berserkers they can do much more dps. Heck put a berserker on more then 1 mob ive seen them outdps a summoner. But hey lets nerf a bruiser instead of berserkers. Lets nerf bruisers AA's even then Guardians and berserkers get better dps ones then us! Ive seen guardians showing up on parses with certain AA set ups. And when i say showing up im saying over 1k dps for a guardian. i see berserkers parseing 2k dps but hey watch out for the bruisers whos AE dps doesnt even compare to berserkers and single target isnt a whole lot better to compensate.</P> <P>Ive heared talk of alot of bruisers thinkin about quitting due to the nerfage kinda like a ranger 2.0 or something not sure how many really will but its really sad when 1 patch can make so many people in a certain class angry enough to threaten that. It was pathetic when you nerfed rangers down to pile of crap status but we didnt learn there lets nerf some other classes dps. I honestly think the goal is to slowing kill off certain classes by nerfing so they have a legit reason to just take the class out of the game due to so many people not wanting to play it. Now I will continue playigna  bruiser no matter what the nerfages are no matter how far down the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hole we go but just hope they think before putting in some of the changes.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agree 100%. Was weird coming from EQOA and seeing Monk as a tank class when they were melee dps in that game. Never really got into playing my monk whole heartedly in EQ2 because of that. I would rather play tank on my SK. I'd rather just beat the crap out of stuff on my Monk and not have to worry about keeping aggro off nuke happy mages.<p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 AM</span>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewts wrote:<BR>For a monk:<BR><BR>100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate<BR><BR>For a brusier:<BR><BR>100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate<BR><BR>The problem is that because they get 3000 damage from the procs out of every 100 swings they skew their DPS numbers.  I do think many of the changes to bruiser are unwarranted and I'm not clearly sold that this change is necessary.  There are better options to adjust the Bruiser/Monk balance than sharing a fear/mezz skill and changing what timers are shared<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Damage : Hate = 1:1 ratio so please consider that in numbers as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk DPS is countered by Bruiser CA damage in numbers and according Moorgard, bruiser auto-attack does more damage compared to monk Auto-attack even monks swing more with less damage so that balances it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't you worry about hate generation.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[djinnz]

<DIV>i dont agree with gungo's suggestions, good dps with mediocre tanking works better for me in my duo set up than good tanking and mediocre dps. but cant argue with the guys logic and id certainly rather have gungo's suggestions then mediocre tanking and mediocre  dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have seen it typed so many times, "bruiser is a fun class, wont be long b4 they nerf us", how about just once soe u prove us wrong, go fix a class instead of breaking one?</DIV>

[Druzgotek]

Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids, and are supposed to be tier 3. It is amazing you only are getting nerfed by such a small amount. Soe must love bruisers. I wonder why? (Not)

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druzgotek wrote:<BR> Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If that's the case, your guild's DPS'ers really <EM>do</EM> suck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RyanTSi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druzgotek wrote:<BR> Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If that's the case, your guild's DPS'ers really <EM>do</EM> suck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yeah what he said, no way brawlers can hit t1 dps....if your seeing your brawlers at the top of your parse then you have some lazy dpsers. </P> <P>while all nerfs suck, i think the dps hit will only make a small difference, on test my bruiser is still averging about 100 more dps then my monk in solo and groups. The fear/mez nerf is really what sucks imo, i think they should relook that.</P> <P>also the brawler stunned mitigation line appears to be nerfed pretty hard on test, but it looks like it could just be a display error...looks like the description for an enchanter stun was slapped on at the bottom. </P><p>Message Edited by RyanTSi on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[Xarov]

 I can partially see the dps nerf for bruisers in groups, i cant see why there is no direct tanking compensation for them ............ Its SoE playing that game again , dont worry thou i see them giving it back to bruisers in the form of class specific AAs lol in the next expansion

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewts wrote:<BR>For a monk:<BR><BR>100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate<BR><BR>For a brusier:<BR><BR>100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate<BR><BR>The problem is that because they get 3000 damage from the procs out of every 100 swings they skew their DPS numbers.  I do think many of the changes to bruiser are unwarranted and I'm not clearly sold that this change is necessary.  There are better options to adjust the Bruiser/Monk balance than sharing a fear/mezz skill and changing what timers are shared<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Damage : Hate = 1:1 ratio so please consider that in numbers as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk DPS is countered by Bruiser CA damage in numbers and according Moorgard, bruiser auto-attack does more damage compared to monk Auto-attack even monks swing more with less damage so that balances it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't you worry about hate generation.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your exactly right thats the point they lowered most of the bruisers combat arts. Hence the original post.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RyanTSi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druzgotek wrote:<BR> Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If that's the case, your guild's DPS'ers really <EM>do</EM> suck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yeah what he said, no way brawlers can hit t1 dps....if your seeing your brawlers at the top of your parse then you have some lazy dpsers. </P> <P>while all nerfs suck, i think the dps hit will only make a small difference, on test my bruiser is still averging about 100 more dps then my monk in solo and groups. The fear/mez nerf is really what sucks imo, i think they should relook that.</P> <P>also the brawler stunned mitigation line appears to be nerfed pretty hard on test, but it looks like it could just be a display error...looks like the description for an enchanter stun was slapped on at the bottom. </P> <P>Message Edited by RyanTSi on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its odd i havent tested it. It basically says does not effect epics. What they did was anything with stun o it even stuns on themselves had that code put in. Since i havent been able to run into any epics i can't say if its just display or really bad move. Just for info it also says that on several other classes stun abilities.

[J4k]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druzgotek wrote:<BR> Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids, and are supposed to be tier 3. It is amazing you only are getting nerfed by such a small amount. Soe must love bruisers. I wonder why? (Not)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The only way i see a bruiser parsing that high is if a group is set up just focused on buffing the bruiser ie. 100% haste buffs 100% dps buffs procs etc all for the bruiser then he would probably be parsing pretty high. BUT if you put a zerker in the same position he will parse higher. Put alot of  other classes in that position they will parse higher. Our dps right now really isnt over powered or under powered its perfect where it is.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just really hope these new AA's let you actually focus on one thing like just dps or just tanking instead of a mixture of dps and tanking combined into one aa line.</DIV>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Honestly guys i dont really think SoE knew how powerful the bruiser class was until they opened a pvp server.  Even with a seperate pvp system the CA's/abilities the bruiser has makes them one of the hardest class's to kill.  I dont think SOE quite realized this until pvp opened.  Reguardless rather this change was brought by pvp or simply SoE finnally coming to its senses this class needed to be toned down.  I can see why bruiser's are geting upset about monks geting fear, but you have to remember your not the only class geting it's abilities taken away/changed.  Bards, and other class's will be hit by this update just as much as you guys.<div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Druzgotek wrote:<BR> Well, bruisers reportedly parsed at tier 1 in raids, and are supposed to be tier 3. It is amazing you only are getting nerfed by such a small amount. Soe must love bruisers. I wonder why? (Not)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>brawlers can be tier1 or tier 2 dps? Yes, but it requires full offensive buffs. 100% dps + 100% haste + melee proc + mitigation debuff, I did 1400 dps. However, when self buffed, my dps is about 500-600 in a long fight - which is tier 3 dps.<BR>

[Bewts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bewts wrote:<BR>For a monk:<BR><BR>100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate<BR><BR>For a brusier:<BR><BR>100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate<BR><BR>The problem is that because they get 3000 damage from the procs out of every 100 swings they skew their DPS numbers.  I do think many of the changes to bruiser are unwarranted and I'm not clearly sold that this change is necessary.  There are better options to adjust the Bruiser/Monk balance than sharing a fear/mezz skill and changing what timers are shared<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Damage : Hate = 1:1 ratio so please consider that in numbers as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk DPS is countered by Bruiser CA damage in numbers and according Moorgard, bruiser auto-attack does more damage compared to monk Auto-attack even monks swing more with less damage so that balances it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So don't you worry about hate generation.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by selch on <SPAN class=date_text>05-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I should have been clearer that I was only comparing hate generated from the hate buff proc both classes have (where the bruiser hate is the hate + damage on the skill but not shown in my quick math)</P> <P>I'm not worried about hate generation for either class, but I think that with the damage effect on the proc, that the bruisers appear they would have higher DPS because they need the damage to manage the hate due to the 25% compared to the monk 50% chance to proc.  Even with that, the bruiser falls short of generating hate just from the proc.  Although the larger damage combat arts they 'had' hopefully made up the difference in the short term.  Development team apparantly believes that some of those arts generate too much hate or too much DPS though.</P>

[Bewts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>Honestly guys i dont really think SoE knew how powerful the bruiser class was until they opened a pvp server.  Even with a seperate pvp system the CA's/abilities the bruiser has makes them one of the hardest class's to kill.  I dont think SOE quite realized this until pvp opened.  Reguardless rather this change was brought by pvp or simply SoE finnally coming to its senses this class needed to be toned down.  <BR><BR>I can see why bruiser's are geting upset about monks geting fear, but you have to remember your not the only class geting it's abilities taken away/changed.  Bards, and other class's will be hit by this update just as much as you guys.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If thats the case, fix the PvP numbers, not the green PvE ones.

[sick720]

<P>This thread amuses me, especially the comments on the lines "people who dont play bruisers should keep thier opinions to themselves" after the hate campaign waged on the guardians that lead up to and after LU13 where a bunch bruisers and monks spent a lot of time in guardian threads arguing why guardians should be nerfed so that they could tank also.</P> <P>Personally i quit eq2 not long after and have been enjoying eqlive again since, tho i still troll the boards from time to time. I saw this thread and couldnt help laughing that the situation seems to be somewhat reversed now. what goes around comes around or so they say. enjoy nerfage.</P>

[Raahl]

<P>Well the nerf bat swings both ways.  </P> <P>I wish you luck Gungo in obtaining Monk/Bruiser equality.   It's always sad to see the nerf bat swing.</P>

[Pouncer74]

<P>We raid a lot....BRUISERS DO NOT PARSE AT TIER 1 dps.  </P> <P>Top parses...tier 1 are assassins, wizards, conjurers and necros.  We dont have an active warlock but I would assume theyd be up there or close.  Tier 1 dps btw does 50 percent more dps than anyone in tier 2.</P> <P>Tier 2 dps, from what I've seen consistantly on raids are enchanters, brawlers, rogues, and rangers *need to fix*.  </P> <P>This is fine since rogues have major debuffs and enchanters have major buffs.  Brawlers rarely tank in raids and really add nothing to a raid except for tsunami pulls...not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  </P> <P>Life is all about balance....if you feel the need to nerf brawler dps then feel free to improve avoidance tanking vs orange con mobs.  At the moment its silly.</P> <P>Personally I feel there are way too many nerfs for 1 class in 1 update.  From memory all of this is going to happen to a bruiser at once:</P> <P>1) Our AA crit chance is going from 22 percent to 16 percent at level 8.....OUCH</P> <P>2) Our direct damage and aoe damage combat arts are getting nerfed as much as 22 percent ....OUCH</P> <P>3) Our stuns are getting nerfed by half and one of them one even stun anymore ...OMG OUCH...thisll hurt group tanking a lot.</P> <P>4)Our fear and mez spells will no longer work at the same time....OUCH...no need to ever use fear again...OUCH</P> <P>Now as a bruiser, I'm still reeling from the proc changes we got a couple months back.  This very much reduced my dps, but even more VERY MUCH reduced my hate agro control since our hate ago proc is a large factor in that.</P> <P>I won't be quitting bruiser after this update.  I wont be quitting the game after this update.  I will however be walking a less effective group tank and less effective dps on raids....and we'll thats basically all I do.</P><p>Message Edited by Pouncer74 on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pouncer74 wrote:<BR> <P>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game.</FONT></P> <P>Personally I feel there are way too many nerfs for 1 class in 1 update.  From memory all of this is going to happen to a bruiser at once:</P> <P>1) Our AA crit chance is going from 22 percent to 16 percent at level 8.....OUCH  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its 18% I think Krutt.</FONT></P> <P>2) Our direct damage and aoe damage combat arts are getting nerfed as much as 22 percent ....OUCH</P> <P>3) Our stuns are getting nerfed by half and one of them one even stun anymore ...OMG OUCH...thisll hurt group tanking a lot.</P> <P>4)Our fear and mez spells will no longer work at the same time....OUCH...no need to ever use fear again...OUCH</P> <P>Now as a bruiser, I'm still reeling from the proc changes we got a couple months back.  This very much reduced my dps, but even more VERY MUCH reduced my hate agro control since our hate ago proc is a large factor in that.</P> <P>I won't be quitting bruiser after this update.  I wont be quitting the game after this update.  I will however be walking a less effective group tank and less effective dps on raids....and we'll thats basically all I do.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lordviperscorpian wrote:<BR>Honestly guys i dont really think SoE knew how powerful the bruiser class was until they opened a pvp server.  Even with a seperate pvp system the CA's/abilities the bruiser has makes them one of the hardest class's to kill.  I dont think SOE quite realized this until pvp opened.  Reguardless rather this change was brought by pvp or simply SoE finnally coming to its senses this class needed to be toned down.  <BR><BR>I can see why bruiser's are geting upset about monks geting fear, but you have to remember your not the only class geting it's abilities taken away/changed.  Bards, and other class's will be hit by this update just as much as you guys.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry I didnt mean to spit coffee at you (well my monitor) but a Warden saying bruisers are a hard class to kill in PvP was funny as hell. Thanks I needed a great laugh on this fine tuesday morning.

[lyonel]

<P>They are missing 1 important nerf in this patch...they need to nerf your feign death ability..they nerfed Invis cause it allowed people to bypass content...brawler fd does the samething except it also puts others at risk cause of the training monks and bruisers...Nerf fiegn death please soe..</P>

[Dart]

<DIV>Rofl, good stuff! All kinds of comedians out today O.o</DIV>

[Kainsei]

<div><blockquote><hr>lyonel wrote:<p>They are missing 1 important nerf in this patch...they need to nerf your feign death ability..they nerfed Invis cause it allowed people to bypass content...brawler fd does the samething except it also puts others at risk cause of the training monks and bruisers...Nerf fiegn death please soe..</p><hr></blockquote>Yes my friend, you're right !!Nerf fd !!!Btw we can also nerf hp, mitigation, avoidance, and defensive stances when people are running, since most players doesn't need to fd to train half of the sanctum and "put others at risk".../sarcasm off</div>

[Pouncer74]

<DIV>Gaige, yer right its 18 percent not 16 percent.... its still gonna hurt</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the bruiser debuff being the best avoidance debuff ingame.....we debuff slash/crush/peirce/ranged as our one debuff....from what I've read on other posts about the use of slash/crush/peirce/ranged debuff modifiers as well as slash/crush/peirce/ranged buff modifiers....sounds like they don't do as much as you'd think from reading the descriptions.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is at what point will bruisers be "balanced enough"  In the update after this one will be only be able to use 1handed weopons and be forced to walk with a limp?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Pouncer74 on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>Well the nerf bat swings both ways.  </P> <P>I wish you luck Gungo in obtaining Monk/Bruiser equality.   It's always sad to see the nerf bat swing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Het raahl whats up bud. Funny thing is most of the changes i wanted to have done for guards have came to pass. Finally w the fix to intercepts.  All except increasing the off stance. I would go looking for the thread for the fixes to guard class, but its irrelevant now. Guards are pretty much what should be expected from them now. Brawlers although i do contend can do tremendous dps in raids i saw a dps nerf coming. But what i did not want is unbalance between both brawlers and 2 underpowered brawlers from this nerf. Dps = the brawler hate agro. If they intend to reduce brawler DPS they need to integrate more hate in soem form. As well as the other fixes to areas they intend to break brawlers in. Its all explained in the original thread.

[masakre]

<DIV>heh, nerf fd..... Why doesn't Sony just remove the crappy training they implemented with the release of KoS? This would remove the whole monk fd and train thing, and be more like the rest of the game. But, for some reason, Sony thought they needed to implement one of the crappiest controls brought over from eq1 to intrigue more EQ1'ers to join EQ2, as it is turning into EQ1 with  better graphics.</DIV><p>Message Edited by masakre on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 PM</span>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Pouncer74 wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <font color="#ffff00">Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game.  <font color="#ff3300">Actually, the swashbucklers Lung Puncutre is the best c/s/p/r debuff ingame with -56 skill to em (+ a few others) at Master 1 with 30 second duration and 30 second recast.</font> </font></p> <p>Personally I feel there are way too many nerfs for 1 class in 1 update.  From memory all of this is going to happen to a bruiser at once:</p> <p>1) Our AA crit chance is going from 22 percent to 16 percent at level 8.....OUCH  <font color="#ffff00">Its 18% I think Krutt.</font></p> <p>2) Our direct damage and aoe damage combat arts are getting nerfed as much as 22 percent ....OUCH</p> <p>3) Our stuns are getting nerfed by half and one of them one even stun anymore ...OMG OUCH...thisll hurt group tanking a lot.</p> <p>4)Our fear and mez spells will no longer work at the same time....OUCH...no need to ever use fear again...OUCH</p> <p>Now as a bruiser, I'm still reeling from the proc changes we got a couple months back.  This very much reduced my dps, but even more VERY MUCH reduced my hate agro control since our hate ago proc is a large factor in that.</p> <p>I won't be quitting bruiser after this update.  I wont be quitting the game after this update.  I will however be walking a less effective group tank and less effective dps on raids....and we'll thats basically all I do.</p> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Gungo]

<HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pouncer74 wrote:<BR> <P>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game.<BR> <FONT color=#ff3300>Actually, the swashbucklers Lung Puncutre is the best c/s/p/r debuff ingame with -56 skill to em (+ a few others) at Master 1 with 30 second duration and 30 second recast. </FONT><FONT color=#33cc00>I prefer clara's master 1 (dirge) its encounter based as well.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>Personally I feel there are way too many nerfs for 1 class in 1 update.  From memory all of this is going to happen to a bruiser at once:</P> <P>1) Our AA crit chance is going from 22 percent to 16 percent at level 8.....OUCH  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its 18% I think Krutt. </FONT><FONT color=#33cc00>Its unconfirmed max of 18%, (may actually be less) Testign every aa to max gets expensive on test.</FONT></P> <P>2) Our direct damage and aoe damage combat arts are getting nerfed as much as 22 percent ....OUCH</P> <P>3) Our stuns are getting nerfed by half and one of them one even stun anymore ...OMG OUCH...thisll hurt group tanking a lot.</P> <P>4)Our fear and mez spells will no longer work at the same time....OUCH...no need to ever use fear again...OUCH</P> <P>Now as a bruiser, I'm still reeling from the proc changes we got a couple months back.  This very much reduced my dps, but even more VERY MUCH reduced my hate agro control since our hate ago proc is a large factor in that.</P> <P>I won't be quitting bruiser after this update.  I wont be quitting the game after this update.  I will however be walking a less effective group tank and less effective dps on raids....and we'll thats basically all I do.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:08 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <hr> Gaige wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Pouncer74 wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <font color="#ffff00">Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game. <font color="#ff3300">Actually, the swashbucklers Lung Puncutre is the best c/s/p/r debuff ingame with -56 skill to em (+ a few others) at Master 1 with 30 second duration and 30 second recast. </font><font color="#33cc00">I prefer clara's master 1 (dirge) its encounter based as well. <font color="#ff9900">Apart from my bruiser, my "second main" is a dirge and dirges don't debuff C/S/P/R. Clara's is an encounter based mitigation debuff. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></font></font></p> <p>Personally I feel there are way too many nerfs for 1 class in 1 update.  From memory all of this is going to happen to a bruiser at once:</p> <p>1) Our AA crit chance is going from 22 percent to 16 percent at level 8.....OUCH  <font color="#ffff00">Its 18% I think Krutt. </font><font color="#33cc00">Its unconfirmed max of 18%, (may actually be less) Testign every aa to max gets expensive on test.</font></p> <p>2) Our direct damage and aoe damage combat arts are getting nerfed as much as 22 percent ....OUCH</p> <p>3) Our stuns are getting nerfed by half and one of them one even stun anymore ...OMG OUCH...thisll hurt group tanking a lot.</p> <p>4)Our fear and mez spells will no longer work at the same time....OUCH...no need to ever use fear again...OUCH</p> <p>Now as a bruiser, I'm still reeling from the proc changes we got a couple months back.  This very much reduced my dps, but even more VERY MUCH reduced my hate agro control since our hate ago proc is a large factor in that.</p> <p>I won't be quitting bruiser after this update.  I wont be quitting the game after this update.  I will however be walking a less effective group tank and less effective dps on raids....and we'll thats basically all I do.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:08 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:11 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pouncer74 wrote:<BR> <P>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game.<BR> <FONT color=#ff3300>Actually, the swashbucklers Lung Puncutre is the best c/s/p/r debuff ingame with -56 skill to em (+ a few others) at Master 1 with 30 second duration and 30 second recast.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Bruiser is 55 last I checked and with relic pants the recast is shorter than the duration.</FONT><BR></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[TheSummoned]

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TheSummoned wrote: <blockquote> <blockquote> <hr> Pouncer74 wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>not bruisers...feigns if you wipe, and 1 mediocre buff and 1 mediocre debuff.  <font color="#ffff00">Its the best accuracy (c/s/p) debuff in the game. <font color="#ff3300">Actually, the swashbucklers Lung Puncutre is the best c/s/p/r debuff ingame with -56 skill to em (+ a few others) at Master 1 with 30 second duration and 30 second recast.  </font><font color="#ffff00">Bruiser is 55 last I checked and with relic pants the recast is shorter than the duration.  <font color="#cc0066">No, it's 50 at master and 44 at ad3.</font></font></font></p></blockquote></blockquote> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR>Het raahl whats up bud. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just returning from a long break.  It's too early for me to comment on the Guardian class.  I have a decent amount of catching up to do.   It appears that the AA's, may make up for a large amount of the issues the guardians were having.   Now the tough part is deciding where I want to take my guardian. 

[Aaliel Stonefists]

I would also like to see the changes Gungo has suggested go into effect, especially an improvement to our hate proc line, if the changes on test make it to live servers.

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV> after further review regarding roughhousing and balance. I would think</DIV> <DIV>Previously for monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings, 50 for 420 hate = 21,000 hate<BR><BR>For a brusier:<BR><BR>100 swings, 25 for 540 hate = 13,500 hate                        (combined hate + damage)<BR></DIV> <DIV>so if they changed the % for bruisers from 25% to 39%. It will even out at about 39%. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings for monk at 50% for 420 = 21,000</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 swings for bruiser at 39% for 540 = 21,060</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a bit more equal then 25% was for hate generation. Not to mention haste at 100% still gives monks a more chances to proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my recommendation is a 39-40% proc rate on the hate proc.</DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>generally speaking the problem i have with them reducing our dps is because they gave us only offensive AA's</P> <P>lets look at the general AA tree</P> <P>tier 1 -is all stats</P> <P>tier 2 -is an extra atk =more dps</P> <P>tier 3 -an extra proc = more dps</P> <P>tier 4 -is suppose to be defensive= riposte (more dps), defense (useless capped), parry (more riposte), hp's, and deflection</P> <P>tier 5 -faster recast, cast, and haste dps= more dps, fakedeath agro skill, extra atk+crit= more dps, super dps buff, and mitigation crit buff = more dps</P> <P>so we get mainly dps oriented aa's, they raise our dps then say whoops u do to much dps time to reduce you to pre aa lvl. Ok so basically they gave us aa's then require aa's to get back to the lvl we were before aa's.  My suggestion is give the fighters classes a mix fo dps and def aa's don't pigeon hole us w offesnive aa's then screw us when we do to much dps.</P>

[Gungo]

Some stuff has changed ill update the orginal post later on today. Particularly mezz/fear timer

[Elephant]

Please update already, we are all ears :smileyindifferent:

[Zarafein]

looks like fear and mezz no longer share the same reuse timer on test.

[Elephant]

hmm I was expecting something like recast changed to 15 mins :smileyvery-happy:

[RanmaBoyType]

<P>I am curious as to how these changes affect actual grouping game play.  I ask specifically for group based exp hunting with a bruiser as MT, since we all know brawlers are "never" the tank of choice vs 99% of epic encounters.</P> <P>My main alt is a 54 bruiser, and i am curious if anyone on test can verify if they are having difficulties holding aggro in group situations.  As it stands now the only time on live server that i have difficulty holding aggro is in group encounters, due to a huge lack in group hate, and only 2 AoE attacks (one of which is on a long timer)  On single mobs i usually have no problems holding aggro at all vs equally equipped ranger, whom i group with often.  Can anyone specify if there is a major problem holding aggro for bruisers on test?</P> <P>I agree 50000% that if they reduce the damage of from what it looks like, ALL of our high damage attacks, then they need to make up some hate somewhere else.  </P> <P>In general i disagree with the big old nerfbat to the damage in general.  Yes it may have been high on raid situation, however what else are brawlers supposed to do on raids?  I have never seen any brawler on any of our raids hit higher dps than conji, necro, wiza, warlock, ranger or assasin, unless said player was just not paying attention, however i HAVE seen guardians buffed as MT, with extra procs for aggro/damage hit up to 900 dps on raids.</P> <P>If they are nerfing the bruisers because we do too much damage, then i really have to ask what else is it we do, because as a fighter class we really do not tank anything outside of general group exp.  If we are not supposed to be a fighter class, then [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are we supposed to be?  Sorry but pulling in eq2 is just not the same as fd pulling in eq1, which was hella fun</P>

[wayfaerer]

It's unbelievable that they've absolutely gutted the class and still have offered no explanation as to why.Also, what the heck is the point of having two seperate CA lines on the same reuse timer? Who is ever going to use fear now with a shorter duration than mez on the same recast timer? The only possible use for fear now is for sending people off the pier in PvP to make it harder for them to bell away.Not only have they nerfed our AE damage (which was already very mediocre), nerfed our AE aggro generation (which is already abysmal), nerfed our single target dps (2 of our 4 top DPS single target lines), and nerfed our CC durations, but they've also effectively removed an entire CA line. Incredible.I have no issue with the stun nerfs. It's the DPS and CC nerfs that I don't get. At least explain yourselves for christ sake.<div></div>

[selch]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wayfaerer wrote:<BR>It's unbelievable that they've absolutely gutted the class and still have offered no explanation as to why.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Also, what the heck is the point of having two seperate CA lines on the same reuse timer?</FONT> Who is ever going to use fear now with a shorter duration than mez on the same recast timer? The only possible use for fear now is for sending people off the pier in PvP to make it harder for them to bell away.<BR><BR>Not only have they nerfed our AE damage (which was already very mediocre), nerfed our AE aggro generation (which is already abysmal), nerfed our single target dps (2 of our 4 top DPS single target lines), and nerfed our CC durations, but they've also effectively removed an entire CA line. Incredible.<BR><BR>I have no issue with the stun nerfs. It's the DPS and CC nerfs that I don't get. At least explain yourselves for christ sake.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They changed it. So let's stop telling opposite right? </DIV>

[Gravve]

<DIV>I really hate to open this can of worms again BUT where do we really fit in after this LU goes through ?  Please someone tell me because I'm lost and confused and just want to go home .   Lets see , First they call us DPS , then were Tanks , Now were DPS Tanks that have low dps and cant take hits ?  well after the LU that is .  Seriously think about it ?  When will SoE stop changing their mind and just leave things be ?  And I dont just say that for me and my fellow Bruisers I'm Speaking on behalf of ALL classes I feel ,  that will be getting nerfed in one way or another from this LU.  And just because your class isnt getting messed with this update according to the notes you think your free ? Think again ! whatever happens to one of the classes will eventually affect all in some shape way or another .  For example ,  On raids , Your tanks getting the heck beat out of him ,  the healers are screaming for more mana to keep the tank up cause the tank is just getting hit way to hard ,  (I'll use bruiser for example since thats what I play )  here comes the bruiser with a few knockdown stuns ,  buying the healers more time to heal the tank without the tank getting hit more . Just an example rant and rave if ya like but hopefully you see my point .  This will hit everyone in some way or another !  As to the whole monk and bruiser arguement , personally and i have no hard feelings towards monks much luv to my good counter parts BUT .... ok heres the way I see it ,  They gave the monks one of our abilities because we supposably had one more then them ,  However I fail to see it that way ,  Lets see they can invis , Bruisers cant . They can be invinicible for a short period of time,  Bruisers cant .  They get group fd , and  can patch heal someone in group , Bruisers get self only fd .  We both get  Fear now after the update .  They can buff Haste to groups , Bruisers can buff dps mod to group.  BUT fear and mezz on same cast timer so .... Heres the way i see it after the patch...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks-                          Bruisers -</DIV> <DIV>Group FD                      Self FD</DIV> <DIV>Self Invis                       Fear / Mezz (on same cast timer)</DIV> <DIV>Self Heal                       Self Heal</DIV> <DIV>Fear                              Avoid AE for 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Haste Buff                     Dps Mod Buff</DIV> <DIV>Invincible                       Self mit buff</DIV> <DIV>Patch Heal                  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all I can say is  Now whos got the extra spell / skill ? Personally I think we should ALL ask SoE to seriously think about LU #24 and tell them that no one wants it ! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[selch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gravve wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks-                          Bruisers -</DIV> <DIV>Group FD                      Self FD</DIV> <DIV>Self Invis                       Fear / Mezz (on same cast timer)</DIV> <DIV>Self Heal                       Self Heal</DIV> <DIV>Fear                              Avoid AE for 30 secs</DIV> <DIV>Haste Buff                     Dps Mod Buff</DIV> <DIV>Invincible                       Self mit buff</DIV> <DIV>Patch Heal                  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all I can say is  Now whos got the extra spell / skill ? Personally I think we should ALL ask SoE to seriously think about LU #24 and tell them that no one wants it ! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1. Fear & Mez is NOT on same timer ANYMORE.</P> <P>2. There is not 2 different heals of Monks they are one ability, Monk can use it on self or another per 3 minutes, bruisers 1.5 minutes. So basically they are trading "healing other" to 50% less heal than you in 3 minutes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P><STRONG><FONT size=5>booyah</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Bruiser changes:<BR></STRONG>- The damage changes to the Savage Blows, Burn Through, and Sucker Punch lines have been reverted.</P> <P>MEZZ AND FEAR NO LONGER ON SAME TIMER</P> <P> </P> <P>crits still has ~4% nerf for both brawlers. </P> <P>would still like a 38-40% bruiser roughhousing hate proc and defensie aa changed to +mitgation and a 3 proc stone skin buff.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>O_o</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>o_O</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O_O</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>o_o</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>06-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 PM</span>

[Elephant]

Hope they will increase mezz duration by a little bit too... not as long as currently (now it is insanely long), but I would really like final T6 ability to last for at least 15 seconds after revamp.

[Pouncer74]

Thank you devs!  *breaths a sigh of relief*

[Owa]

<FONT face=Garamond size=4>Thanks lads.</FONT>

[TheSummoned]

THANK YOU!!! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Ralg]

<P>This is really discouraging news considering I just started a bruiser after a 7 month hiatus from the game.</P> <P>Maybe I should have waited until after the LU24 went live.</P>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Ok Gungo who did you bribe or blackmail to get things reversed?  :smileytongue: j/k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Congrats. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[DarkMirrax]

<P>hehe devs saw sence then :smileywink:</P> <P>They knew them changes wouldnt just hurt us they would totally kill the class off</P> <P>:smileymad:</P> <P>Thanks Guys </P> <P>p.s gaige dont be mad you know you want to betray a brusier</P>