I understand the reasons but i think it was overboard

[SeregWethrin]

I understand the reasons for the changes and i am sickened by some of the responses from people complaining.  I read earlier about necros and conjururs complaining about no longer being able to dou triple up blue heroics.  This is the reasons for the nerf you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idiots.  You are not supposed to be able to dou a triple up heroic especially with a pet tank.   I am a troubador and am getting hit unreasonably hard by this change but i do understand why.  They do not want a troub using their mezzes in these heroic dous and trios to be able to wait on timers but i do think it is unreasonable to indirectly nerf an already underpowered class because of a possible exploit.   I understand not wanting people to be able to dou and trio triple up heroic but when you inadvertantly nerf a classes ability to solo a green non heroic with a reasonable risk this is unreasonable.  Without charm or mez for regen it is difficult for a troubador to solo white con mobs without having a 50% risk of something going wrong.   This really doesnt affect our raid ability much other than mezzing the non epic adds in an encounter to help with croud control.  The biggest hit is in the group senario as this was one of our main functions that made us wanted in a instance group was croud control.  I think the charm could have used a nerf as it was a little on the long side but the nerf that was put on charm is a little overdone 8 sec duration with a minuet recast is just plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and whoever came up with this crap needs a pinapple shoved up their rectum.   I can see a reasonable nerf to charm such as a minuet duration with a 20 second recast.  This means a resist means we still have the ability to mez the mob.  I think that the mez nerf was a little harsh and that mez could have used a nerf but what was done to it was excessive as well.   I think that 30 seconds with a 5 second recast is reasonable for a mez it allows about 4 mobs to be mezzed with a reasonable amount of risk while allowing 3 mobs to be mezzed.     This allows us to perform the function of croud control while not being overpowered.     I think that instead of doing such game altering nerfs why not add a timer such as pvp uses.   Such as for every second of stun the mob must remain unstunned for 3 seconds so a 5 second stun keeps it from being stunned for about 15 seconds .  This easily stops people from chain stunning but allows those who use stuns to solo white/yellow no arrow non heroic con mobs to still be able to solo.   Its not like troubs were able to solo a heroic encounter so why the drastic nerfs to a major part of our abilities.   <div></div>

[Jida]

*im blind*Formatting is your friend<div></div>

[saotome0]

<DIV>Interesting, a troubador posting that the nerfs to conji's and necros were needed, but the nerfs to troubadors were over the line.  Must of never played a conji or necro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off your statement</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <EM>I read earlier about necros and conjururs complaining about no longer being able to dou triple up blue heroics.  This is the reasons for the nerf you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idiots.  You are not supposed to be able to dou a triple up heroic especially with a pet tank</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is an unfair statement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ANY tank with ANY healer can duo blue con triple ups..  ANY scout with a tank who can stun can duo blue con triples.  2 scouts can duo blue con triples up, yet if a conji or necro duo a blue con triple up then we are over powered?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The statement about pet tanks as well is so beyond false it is not even funny.  Post live update13 (i do not speak for necros, i do not play one) but conji tank pets got a major nerf bat.   Our tank pet cannot tank green con triple ups without the use of a healer and status effects (stuns stifles, etc) while on a daily basis i see monks, bruisers, shadowknights and berzerkers solo green, blue, and even white(depending on skill of player) con triple up heroics, yet everyone says the conji and necro are overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I again do not speak for necros, but as a conji the only heroics i can solo are grouped, green, due to the nature of group encounters being flat out easier, and the aoe damage conji's do.  how different is this tactic from anyone else able to solo single triple ups?  Or warlocks soloing group encounters as well?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Akito 70 Conjurer - Mistmoore</DIV> <P>- Edited for spelling and formatting</P><p>Message Edited by saotome007 on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<blockquote><hr>saotome007 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> Stuff + <div> </div> <div>...ANY tank with ANY healer can duo blue con triple ups..  ANY scout with a tank who can stun can duo blue con triples.  2 scouts can duo blue con triples up, yet if a conji or necro duo a blue con triple up then we are over powered?</div> <div> </div> <div>I again do not speak for necros, but as a conji the only heroics i can solo are grouped, green, due to the nature of group encounters being flat out easier, and the aoe damage conji's do.  how different is this tactic from anyone else able to solo single triple ups?  Or warlocks soloing group encounters as well?  </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff6600">Wether you meant to or not, you clearly stated the reason why the changes are taking place, and why they are to all classes.  It's not just 2 Necros, its 2 scouts, its 2 bruisers, its the fact that there are too many cases where heroic encounters can be trivialized... I look forward to the changes...   ...will I be "nerfed"?  ...yes, everyone will be.  But I'm going to enjoy the new challenges. </font><div></div>

[SeregWethrin]

<div></div>I never said that it was not overboard on those classes.  There shouldnt be any classes in the game that can dou a triple up heroic or a named and thats what sony is trying to fix.   Your pets are where they should be honestly they were not built to tank heroic encounters but to tank for solo purposes.  Most of the classes affected  still have the ability to solo white non heroics while a troubador will now have trouble with this. Most classes also still retain all their main purposes in a group troubs lost one of our main group purposes.  I wouldnt mind this if they gave us some utility spell lines to make up for these nerfs we have had indirectly lately but as it is now the troubador population is at dangerously low levels because of the serious issue this class has.  These changes are making it worse and many troubadors are seriously concidering quitting the game.  There is a reason that there are not many troubadors left anymore.      Part of it is that it is very difficult to solo and we dont see to be that desireable in groups anymore.  In raids thats another story we could use more utility but i am somewhat happy with our raid situation.   The fact is that these changes were put in to stop any dous or trios from killing heroic triple up mobs.  The only problem is that they have not thought about how these changes effect other aspects of gameplay such as solo and normal group play.  They have taken away the main solo tool for troubadors for even con mobs and then taken away a major aspect of our group gameplay because a few people exploit the abilities in 2 and 3 man groups to take down named and triple up heroics.   I just find it stupid people have been complaining that they are having the ability to two and three man triple up heroics and nameds taken away when other people have had the ability to even solo and a major group ability taken away.       I am not saying that other classes didnt get shafted in important tools but many people are complaining about justified changes to the game because it stops them from douing and trioing triple up heroics and named.  The problem is that this is causing the devs to ignore everyone including those who do have serious issues effecting their main roles in group and solo content or in a raid senario such as enchanters.    <font color="#ff0000" size="6">If you are complaining about not being able to dou or trio a triple up heroic and thats your main complaint with the changes is that it effects your dous and trios on triple up heroics and named stop complaining you are only making it harder to get feedback for people who have legitimate issues.</font>Sorry about the formatting earlier and not dividing up the paragraphs I was on a laptop and am running on low batteries so I was frantically typing before i run out of juice.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 PM</span>

[saotome0]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by saotome007 on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[saotome0]

<DIV>So, from what i see in your logic is,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White con heroics are built for a group of 3 or more, yet douing blue or green con heroics is out of line?  So what exactly am i missing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or are the lowest possible green con heroics built for a group of 6, and white con heroics take a raid to kill?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you post, seriously...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by saotome007 on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 PM</span>

[Leawyn]

<P>I still fail to see why DUOING <FONT color=#ff99ff>(for the love of all things good, SPELL IT RIGHT!)</FONT> heroics is an issue. A healer with a tank should be able to duo a heroic. It might take all their power and alot of time, but they can do it. I, as a pally, can duo really well with just about anyone, because I am a versitle tank who can overcome things like lack of dps or lack of healing. I can't effectively duo yellow triple up heroics, but blue ones, i can do with a good pace (not fast, just a steady pace) and I don't have that many stuns.</P> <P>I do have issues with people being able to solo heroics (higher than green con) at a good pace wtih little downtime. But duoing is a whole different ballgame, and I would hate to see it eliminated as a viable way to complete quests and get experience if you are short on time. I don't duo alot, just occasionally when I am looking for a quick quest update, but I would hate to see heroics made impossible for duoers.</P> <P>They have always said they encourage small groups and soloing in this game. Yes, they don't want you soloing heroics, but I still don't see the issue with duoing or trioing heroic encounters, especially if they are a few levels lower than you.</P>

[Gwide]

<DIV>As a conjurer I was able to solo green heroics most of the time (it was challenging, and yes I died sometimes).  I was not successful in soloing blue or higher heroics most of the time.  I am not raid equipped, but I buy the adept 3 or masters as I level.  From what I gathered from Moorgard's statements around LU13, this was intentional.  It was why I rerolled as a conjurer.  If that changes as a result of LU24, I'm done.  LU13 was overboard, this is over-the-top.  I'll have no patience for a group that has to re-vamp combat every year and changes its mind on 'whats intended'.</DIV>

[SeregWethrin]

<div></div>The previous posters comments prove exactly why this nerf is being done.   Nobody should be able to solo a heroic encounter unless it is grey especially not a blue or white one which currently main conjurers and the other classes getting hit heavy with the nerf can do.  The same thing is with the dous who can take on heroics.  ITS NOT [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING MEANT TO BE DONE THATS WHY THEY ARE NERFING IT HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND.taking out a three up arrow blue or white or yellow heroic encounters  was content designed for a full group.  They dont want to trivilize having a group just because a few twinks can dou and trio content designed for a full group.   Heroic encounters of any kind were never intended to be soloed or doued which is the main reasoins for these changes as it was said  Trioing a two up or single up encounter would not be so bad but these people taking out groups of triple up encounters are over powered thats the reason for this nerf yes most of us arent exploiting this but because of those who are we are getting nerfed.  I think instead of complaining we need to help try to find alternative solutions for SOE to do instead rather that just complain.  Yeah I know SOE's track record about listening to the playerbase  but who knows we all know its to late for troubs there still has not been a dev post on troub boards since release.A heroic encounter of any kind is designed for a minimum of three players so why do people keep trying to justify needing to be able to solo and dou these encounters.  Whats worse is that alot of people are douing and trioing triple up heroic named taking loot away from full groups because they are douing content they should not be able to take without a group of at least 3.  I dont mind the trios much because that is the minimum of what the content should be taken with but killing a named with three people should be very risky with a good chance of death and right now it isnt for people who know how to use stun lock.  This is trivilizing alot of loot and content and is giving a big incentive to dual box which is something they want to stop.   I just dont understand how people can justify being able to solo heroic greens and blues or douing heroic encounters.  I know that the nerfs were unfairly leveled as alot of people who got hit hard by this done dou or solo heroic encounters but it is something that does need to be rectified.   I think that they could have done this in a better way to stop people from douing the heroics but i dont fault SOE for trying I only fault them for not being open minded to the many suggestions by the playerbase that would solve the problem of soloing and douing heroic encounters.Sorry was rambling and dont feel well lately.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[Gwide]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> The previous posters comments prove exactly why this nerf is being done.   Nobody should be able to solo a heroic encounter unless it is grey especially not a blue or white one which currently main conjurers and the other classes getting hit heavy with the nerf can do.  The same thing is with the dous who can take on heroics.  ITS NOT [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING MEANT TO BE DONE THATS WHY THEY ARE NERFING IT HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND.<BR><BR>taking out a three up arrow blue or white or yellow heroic encounters  was content designed for a full group.  They dont want to trivilize having a group just because a few twinks can dou and trio content designed for a full group.   Heroic encounters of any kind were never intended to be soloed or doued which is the main reasoins for these changes as it was said  Trioing a two up or single up encounter would not be so bad but these people taking out groups of triple up encounters are over powered thats the reason for this nerf yes most of us arent exploiting this but because of those who are we are getting nerfed.  I think instead of complaining we need to help try to find alternative solutions for SOE to do instead rather that just complain.  Yeah I know SOE's track record about listening to the playerbase  but who knows we all know its to late for troubs there still has not been a dev post on troub boards since release.<BR><BR>A heroic encounter of any kind is designed for a minimum of three players so why do people keep trying to justify needing to be able to solo and dou these encounters.  Whats worse is that alot of people are douing and trioing triple up heroic named taking loot away from full groups because they are douing content they should not be able to take without a group of at least 3.  I dont mind the trios much because that is the minimum of what the content should be taken with but killing a named with three people should be very risky with a good chance of death and right now it isnt for people who know how to use stun lock.  This is trivilizing alot of loot and content and is giving a big incentive to dual box which is something they want to stop.  <BR><BR>I just dont understand how people can justify being able to solo heroic greens and blues or douing heroic encounters.  I know that the nerfs were unfairly leveled as alot of people who got hit hard by this done dou or solo heroic encounters but it is something that does need to be rectified.   I think that they could have done this in a better way to stop people from douing the heroics but i dont fault SOE for trying I only fault them for not being open minded to the many suggestions by the playerbase that would solve the problem of soloing and douing heroic encounters.<BR><BR><BR>Sorry was rambling and dont feel well lately.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You sir, do not know what in the heck you are talking about.  At least know about which you rant about, so you don't embarrass yourself:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Moorgard wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>We're changing con color to be 4 levels per color instead of 5 at level 40 and higher. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meant to respond to this sooner, but got sidetracked. Sorry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The info above was posted before the mechanics folks clarified that they were only reducing the number of levels per con for orange, yellow, and blue. Green is intended to extend just as far as it did before, meaning that it actually gained a level: green is 6 levels instead of 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, a level 50 player would see:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Red = 59+</LI> <LI>Orange = 55 to 58</LI> <LI>Yellow = 51 to 54</LI> <LI>White = 50</LI> <LI>Blue = 46 to 49</LI> <LI>Green = 40 to 45</LI></UL> <P>Why make things stay green longer? A few reasons. It gives people more places to hunt. It makes quests stay rewarding longer. <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>For those who want to challenge themselves against green heroics, it allows them to do so.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Yes, it makes some locations tougher to get to. We'll look at that on a population basis and will adjust where necessary. In some cases it's intentional, in others we might want to tweak things a bit.</P> <P>And yes, it makes harvesting riskier. It was a bit too safe in some areas, which facilitated bot harvesting. Now harvesting should keep folks on their toes a bit more.</P> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>I've stated before that some solo players will be able to take out heroic encounters if they have the proper gear, spells, and tactics.</FONT></STRONG> It's simply a general rule that, for the average player, it will take a group to defeat most heroic encounters. This is especially true of higher-con heroic fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nowhere have we carved on a stone tablet "Thou shalt not solo heroics." The <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>only </FONT></STRONG>proviso we've given is that soloing heroics shouldn't be the most efficient way to earn experience for any class. If you can solo a blue or higher heroic, it should take you a long time and a lot of resources. If you solo green heroics, the XP gained will be minimal. For pure advancement, soloers are better off soloing solo content.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Some people didn't really understand what the bug was, as not everyone encountered it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was not just about epic mobs being harder. Anything that was named was getting way more bonuses than it should have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo named and group named were most visibly affected, especially at lower levels. While named are intended to be tougher than a normal mob of their level, they aren't meant to be invincible powerhouses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are named mobs that are intended for soloers and named mobs that are intended for groups,<STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00> but if well-geared and skilled solo players can take out a heroic named in a risky fight, more power to them.</FONT></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>*hint* *hint* <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes it was intended. In fact it is part of the reason they extended the green con range!</FONT></STRONG>

[kenji]

<DIV>sorry, a <U>group</U> of 2 3 4 5 6 is still a group, no 1 ever said every single heroic encounter need to defeat with 6 men group</DIV>

[Gwide]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>I've stated before that some solo players will be able to take out heroic encounters if they have the proper gear, spells, and tactics.</FONT></STRONG> It's simply a general rule that, for the average player, it will take a group to defeat most heroic encounters. This is especially true of higher-con heroic fights.</DIV> <DIV> <FONT color=#ff0000>You prove my point here where he said in the second part of this It will take a group to defeat MOST heroic encounter.  This is especially true of higher-con heroic fights ie 60 plus fights.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Most meaning not all, and not by all players.  Some heroic encounters are soloable and that is okay (i.e. the game design was not made to prevent it).  Higher con means relative level to you, not the level of the mob.  Mobs that con white, yellow, orange and red are much much more difficult to solo which I find to be absolutely true in today's game design even before LU24.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></STRONG>Nowhere have we carved on a stone tablet "Thou shalt not solo heroics." The <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>only </FONT></STRONG>proviso we've given is that soloing heroics shouldn't be the most efficient way to earn experience for any class. If you can solo a blue or higher heroic, it should take you a long time and a lot of resources. If you solo green heroics, the XP gained will be minimal. For pure advancement, soloers are better off soloing solo content.<FONT color=#ff0000><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>This paragraph is where the problem comes from currently those who can dou and solo heroics do it because it does not take a long time or a lot of resources the XP is not minimal or people would not be soloing and douing heroics FOR XP.  he specifically said </FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It does take longer,  more power, and give much less experience than soloing solo mobs of your own level (as intended) today.  Maybe if I could solo higher con heroic mobs without dieing it might not be true.  But, like I said, I have died to green heroics and even when successful the experience bar does not move significantly.  I am not soloing heroics for experience.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#00cc00>For pure advancement, soloers are better off soloing solo content.  You prove your own point wrong by saying you can solo blue and white heroics sometimes something that was never intended and i would be willing you solo your green  heroics for xp most of the time.  You may not be soloing green heroics for xp but many conjurers are soloing them and blue and white heroics.   Soloing green heroics should be availible for some but not as a method for xp as he himself said.  And douing the blue and white triple up heroics is out of the question on should being able to be done.  </FONT></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, I said I was not successful soloing blue con heroics most of the time (i.e. I get experience debt).  I never said I soloed white con heroics.  Even if I could eek out a win, it wouldn't be worth it for experience sake.  Moorgard said it should be difficult for higher con mobs, he did not say impossible (he even specifically mentioned blue cons).  The people who can do it are probably heavy players with excellent equipment and tactics.  I don't really care, as I mind my own side of the fence and am not always pointing at someone else to nerf. <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#00cc00> <FONT color=#0033ff>Mainly I think they want to stop the farmers who are soloing green heroics faster than groups can for who the content is designed for and this is the main problems is that we see people soloing named group content that is green to them farming these xp zones and they are faster than the groups and dont have to worry agrooing the non named as they will usually be greyed out if they are the right level to farm the green named.  It is unfortunate that because a few people exploit this it is ruined for everyone but i do think they are trying to help the health of the game as a whole however misguided their attempts may be.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, they are performing class balance again.  This has nothing to do with farmers.  In fact the quote we are refering to was about named encounters that were made overly hard accidentally and then returned back to soloable when green (notice from the prior quote where he said named heroics can sometimes be soloed - so it is intentional)<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Yes lots of colors go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are entitled to your opinion, even if it is not what the game designer said.</P>

[SeregWethrin]

<div></div>It may be that you can not solo white heroics but some people are.  I have seen dous take out encounters of triple up yellow heroic mobs and this should not be possible.  I have also seen conjurers and a few other classes solo white heroic encounters faster than i could hope to solo a regular white encounter.  (now i am a bard and probably one of the slowest killers in the game but still this is bs)I am not saying that conjurers need nerfs like they god hell I got huge nerfs that majorly effect my ability to solo even easier mobs and a large part of my point in a group taken away completly.    I am just saying these huge nerfs are do to a small percentage of the population who have found out how to charm mobs that do insane dps to take content they shouldnt be able to.   People have also found out how in dous with some classes they can take out yellow triple up heroic encounters by stun locking the mob.  It is unfortunate these nerfs have to be applied I just hope sony has the insight to balance the changes properly  I think some classes got nerfed to bring them down to the level of those who were nerfed and that may be where some of the unfair nerfing came in and this is the wrong way to go about things but it is their game to balance as they please.    We know they dont want to hurt the game as a whole they just are really bad at balancing and content they always have been since they took over verant and destroyed their work with releases such as luclin and the following expansions.   Obviously the devs are pressured by the people higher up who only want to make more more who tell the devs they have to release more expansions to get more players and to get more money.  Its the price that comes with having a dev team that works under a huge corperation.  They may generally care about the game but cant do anything about it.          Then again troubs have not had any dev responses to our changes so at least be proud you get responses to your problems.   We just get continually it by indirect nerfage while our population sinks farther and farther down.  Already there are massive amounts of quitting messages on the troub forums because sony has not even bothered to explain why our charm and mezzes were nerfed so badly just an explaination to why an 8 second charm with a min recast at level 70 a 3 second as our first i believe.  At least the spells you have left are still useable for the main purpose they were intended what am i going to do with an 8 second charm other than pull agro and die off a caster granting them 8 seconds plus however long i live.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 AM</span>

[Krieg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes lots of colors go [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great comeback.  You've lost all credibilty with that.  Not that you had much in your previous arguments anyway.  But it was still a credible debate until that one, Socrates.<BR>

[Leawyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SeregWethrin wrote:<div></div> dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... dous ... <hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000" size="4">IT IS SPELLED DUO! D-U-O! My god you're driving me crazy with that typo, besides the fact that your argument is weak and lame.</font> Two people should be able to take out a blue heroic, triple up or a group of single ups, or whatever. "Higher con" does not mean "higher level." It means a higher con. Meaning that one person can probably kill a green heroic encounter solo, especially if its 8 or 9 levels lower than that person. It may take all their tricks and will be a slow way to make experience, but it is doable for quest updates or whatever. 2 people can effectively kill blue heroics, maybe even a white now and then, but again, it won't be a very efficient way of making experience as it will be slow and the risk is very high. Making BLUE (aka LOWER LEVEL) heroics unkillable by a skilled duo would make the balance of this game difficult. People would have to duo or trio to get some of the solo mobs killed. That would kind of defeat the purpose of solo mobs..... There should not be such a HUGE gap between a mob labled solo and a mob labled heroic. Yes, I can solo a blue heroic encounter, and if I really really really tried, I <b>MIGHT </b>be able to solo a white one. It has to be *JUST* right (4 or more mobs are best), and I will probably die more than live, but I have done it when I absolutely had to. I have to have all my spells up, and I actually have to pray that I get debuffed/dotted enough so I can fire off one of my spells that does damage for each dot/debuff that is cured, so I can tell you straight up that I can probably do it once a day successfully, and fail the rest of the time.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Leawyn on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 AM</span>

[SeregWethrin]

<DIV>It may not be that slow for you but for the main people that this nerf targeted which is a very small percentage their duo is faster xp killing the white triple up heroics than a full groups xp.  This is what SOE is having a problem with is people being able to do stuff better than full groups with really effiecient duos and in some cases solos.  You may not be able to solo a yellow triple up heroic or white but their are those who have figured out tactics to do this and do it quickly enough to make it very very profitable in loot and xp to them to warrent a group being pointless.  They dont want certain duo combos to be able to kill just about any non epic in the game provided it does not resist every spell they cast.   I honestly wouldnt mind a duo killing a low blue heroic mob but even these encounters were designed for at least three people.  Its when duos are killing yellow heroics that many groups would have difficulty with that they are having problems.  Its even worse when people are soloing heroic encounters for the purpose of xp and loot because they charmed the right mob that enables them to kill very very fast hence the coercer and troubador nerfs although with the troub charm we have to tank so its not really possible to kill a heroic encounter like that for us without all fabled gear.   They do have legitimate issues that they are trying to fix with the nerfs even if they did go about the way of fixing by nerfing everyone poorly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW I am sorry about the poor spelling earlier I have not been able to sleep well the last week so I am sleep deprived and grumpy with the changes to my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say you should be able to duo a white con triple up heroic encounter but on all heroic encounters it says it was designed for a group of three or more.  I honestly dont have a problem with people soloing green heroics and douing blue heroics.  The problem is that to many people are exploiting this and soloing white heroics and farming blue heroic named solo in instances denying groups that content.   This is worse on the newer servers where prices on many named mob drops are still very high and profitable to farm.   I am not saying you shouldnt be able to solo green heroics but you shouldnt be able to run through an area solo or duo like OB killing all of the named on the first level and many on the second level without having to go through all the trash mobs because they wont agro you, stealing all the loot from the groups legitimately trying to xp in these zones.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[Leawyn]

<blockquote><hr>SeregWethrin wrote:  <div>You say you should be able to duo a white con triple up heroic encounter but on all heroic encounters it says it was designed for a group of three or more. <hr size="2" width="100%"></div></blockquote>I never said that. I said you should be able to duo a blue heroic, and possibly a white if the circumstances are right and all the long recast, high damage/heal spells are up and waiting. <div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <hr size="2" width="100%">   I honestly dont have a problem with people soloing green heroics and douing blue heroics.  The problem is that to many people are exploiting this and soloing white heroics and<font color="#ff0000"> farming blue heroic named solo in instances</font> denying groups that content.   This is worse on the newer servers where prices on many named mob drops are still very high and profitable to farm.   I am not saying you shouldnt be able to solo green heroics but you shouldnt be able to run through an area solo or duo like OB killing all of the named on the first level and many on the second level without having to go through all the trash mobs because they wont agro you, stealing all the loot from the groups legitimately trying to xp in these zones.  </div> <p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class="date_text">05-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:13 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I'm sorry, but until they invent a game that prevents people from killing lower level nameds, this will happen. It doesn't matter the con/exp/loot, there will <b>ALWAYS</b> be people who go kill mobs that are signficantly lower level than them for loot. Sorry if this ruins your day, but get used to it. Its a part of MMOs, as much as a corporation stomping out start up entreprenuers is part of RL. As for the highlighted statement... how does one killing a named mob in an instance deny anyone else that content? its an instance for a reason, everyone gets their own zone.<div></div>

[Jaimster]

<P>I don't think it's an issue that other classes can duo those things. At lower levels, my troubador could tank white and yellow heroics with my templar husband healing.  I don't care what other classes can do.  I really don't. I care what my Troubador can NO LONGER do... the nice reasonable amount of DPS my troub had at lower levels diminishes greatly until we feel like we're hitting dragons with a fly swatter by level 70.  I don't know whether other classes also experience this, because I have thus far only gotten my Troub to 70. I'm working on a Conj and Brigand next</P> <P>I think the biggest issue is that as the levels increase, each class can do less and less what they could at the lower levels. I think a lot of people crying that other classes can do "such and such" are often times comparing these classes at the lower end. Or, specifically in the case of summoners, there isn't the understanding that you sort of have to choose which direction you want to take your conj or necro (either group oriented or solo oriented). Because summoners are capable of soloing quite well, those are the classes that people choose as a solo class, and spend their money on majorly buffing their tank pet instead of, say, buying awesome armor or weapons. There are others who love to mainly group who spend their money on their mage pet and it does fabulous damage.</P> <P>One of the reasons I believe that many summoners appear to be so fantastic is because their spells sell for obscene amounts on the broker and what you have to pay for them, you might as well get the rare to make adept 3's.  This is not something that most other classes HAVE to do. Summoner types on the other hand generally either have to get really lucky and have their adepts drop for them, or they have a combination of app2 spells and adept3/master spells because why pay 59gp for a level 35 adept 1 when you can pay less to buy the rare and make an adept 3.</P> <P>Just because Troubadors are being gutted as a class, does not mean that summoner types do not also have legitimate claims to the reduction of their abilities... I believe they do. I have no idea if I will even notice the changes, not having yet hit even 50 on my Conj so it's hard to compare my two favorite toons and how their abilities may or may not suffer comparatively. Yes, Troubs are getting completely beaten down, but it is really annoying to hear people say that other classes don't also have reasons for complaint.</P>

[SeregWethrin]

<div></div>I am sorry I said instance I meant zone like OB.  I am not really complaining about that they are doing it thats just the main reason is that a few people are trivilizing (ie making pointless to do if it can be soloed) group content making people feel like their is no point in grouping if someone else can solo the same mobs the group is killing.  I am not saying it is a correct view just one of the main reasons they are nerfing peoples ability to solo heroics is that other people are complaining about people running named in xp zones  and since they dont have to go through all the mobs in the way and only care about the named loot they can do it faster than the groups can.  Personally I could care less about this as long as they dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with my class but they did they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up alot of classes but at least you can solo a heroic most troubs will have problems with a white non heroic no up arrow after these changes o be thankful for what you have.I never said other classes didnt have valid complains but the people who are complaining about not being able to solo blue heroics as their ONLY complaint should not be complaining or to be able to kill a heroic named group solo.  I dont mind people soloing heroic greens and douing blues but to solo a named heroic is a little unbalanced and does need to be looked at.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:02 PM</span>

[defect9]

<DIV>okay, after reading a lot of back and forth arguements, i have this to say:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"this heroic encounter is well-matched to a group of 3 or more"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the fact that some people KNOW their class better means they can do it with a duo (and/or the fact that some people spend lots of plat on master/adept3 CAs, and either buy or win drops for better gear).  they made this game for the average player, last i checked.  and if you're using SOE approved average gear, you will probably need to trio most heroic encounters.  if you have reasonably better than average gear/CAs, you can duo most even-con ^^^ heroics, though sometimes the nameds will get me (zerker-fury combo).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/lawnchair /popcorn /beer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> saotome007 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Interesting, a troubador posting that the nerfs to conji's and necros were needed, but the nerfs to troubadors were over the line.  Must of never played a conji or necro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off your statement</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <EM>I read earlier about necros and conjururs complaining about no longer being able to dou triple up blue heroics.  This is the reasons for the nerf you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idiots.  You are not supposed to be able to dou a triple up heroic especially with a pet tank</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is an unfair statement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ANY tank with ANY healer can duo blue con triple ups..  ANY scout with a tank who can stun can duo blue con triples.  2 scouts can duo blue con triples up, yet if a conji or necro duo a blue con triple up then we are over powered?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The statement about pet tanks as well is so beyond false it is not even funny.  Post live update13 (i do not speak for necros, i do not play one) but conji tank pets got a major nerf bat.   Our tank pet cannot tank green con triple ups without the use of a healer and status effects (stuns stifles, etc) while on a daily basis i see monks, bruisers, shadowknights and berzerkers solo green, blue, and even white(depending on skill of player) con triple up heroics, yet everyone says the conji and necro are overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I again do not speak for necros, but as a conji the only heroics i can solo are grouped, green, due to the nature of group encounters being flat out easier, and the aoe damage conji's do.  how different is this tactic from anyone else able to solo single triple ups?  Or warlocks soloing group encounters as well?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Akito 70 Conjurer - Mistmoore</DIV> <P>- Edited for spelling and formatting</P> <P>Message Edited by saotome007 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:33 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>To the OP.. You are a clueless f'ing idiot. Suggestion: KNOW YOUR FACTS B 4 U Post.. UN-[Removed for Content] Believable.. <BR>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> The previous posters comments prove exactly why this nerf is being done.   Nobody should be able to solo a heroic encounter unless it is grey especially not a blue or white one which currently main conjurers and the other classes getting hit heavy with the nerf can do.  The same thing is with the dous who can take on heroics.  ITS NOT [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING MEANT TO BE DONE THATS WHY THEY ARE NERFING IT HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND.<BR><BR>taking out a three up arrow blue or white or yellow heroic encounters  was content designed for a full group.  They dont want to trivilize having a group just because a few twinks can dou and trio content designed for a full group.   Heroic encounters of any kind were never intended to be soloed or doued which is the main reasoins for these changes as it was said  Trioing a two up or single up encounter would not be so bad but these people taking out groups of triple up encounters are over powered thats the reason for this nerf yes most of us arent exploiting this but because of those who are we are getting nerfed.  I think instead of complaining we need to help try to find alternative solutions for SOE to do instead rather that just complain.  Yeah I know SOE's track record about listening to the playerbase  but who knows we all know its to late for troubs there still has not been a dev post on troub boards since release.<BR><BR>A heroic encounter of any kind is designed for a minimum of three players so why do people keep trying to justify needing to be able to solo and dou these encounters.  Whats worse is that alot of people are douing and trioing triple up heroic named taking loot away from full groups because they are douing content they should not be able to take without a group of at least 3.  I dont mind the trios much because that is the minimum of what the content should be taken with but killing a named with three people should be very risky with a good chance of death and right now it isnt for people who know how to use stun lock.  This is trivilizing alot of loot and content and is giving a big incentive to dual box which is something they want to stop.   <BR><BR>I just dont understand how people can justify being able to solo heroic greens and blues or douing heroic encounters.  I know that the nerfs were unfairly leveled as alot of people who got hit hard by this done dou or solo heroic encounters but it is something that does need to be rectified.   I think that they could have done this in a better way to stop people from douing the heroics but i dont fault SOE for trying I only fault them for not being open minded to the many suggestions by the playerbase that would solve the problem of soloing and douing heroic encounters.<BR><BR><BR>Sorry was rambling and dont feel well lately.<BR> <P>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <SPAN class=date_text>05-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The dev's have stated many times that "Some" classes can solo better than others (To include) higher level content. It involves using the "Toolset" the devs have given a particular class to its fullest and knowing how to play your class. </P> <P>They went on to say that, although sometimes deadly, with the proper strategy, it can be done.. It's called "risk vs Reward" <BR></P>

[Steven9]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>SeregWethrin wrote:<div></div>I never said that it was not overboard on those classes.  <b>There shouldnt be any classes in the game that can dou a triple up heroic or a named and thats what sony is trying to fix.</b>   Your pets are where they should be honestly they were not built to tank heroic encounters but to tank for solo purposes.  <font color="#ff0033">I guess you never played a conj or nec before.  What you guys who dont play summoners dont understand that a summoner is 3classes in one.  They are dps a healer and a tank.  So is it unfair for a grp of 3ppl dps, tank, and healer to kill a ^^^ heroic?  I solo ^^^ heroics so much  easier on my monk then my conj yet no1 talks about monks at all.  I dont understand the hatred you guys have for summoners like omg just make me and see all the problems we have like any other class.  I have a 60conj and 55nec and as a pet class i know i will be the best soloer class in the game.Personally i wish the summoners were different like in eqoa where necs didnt get tank pets and caster pets only mages did and they got all kinds of pets tank, dps, caster, and healer.Also i think having mobs designed for grp encounters and some for solo is stupid and has always been one of my most hated features in this game.  Im not sure how it will work in this game yet in eqoa there were no mobs designed for grps only you would kill mobs that were like red to you for xp was ALOT more challenging and fun.  If mobs designed for grp were taking out then ppl can stop whining that there toon cant solo like summoners can.  Lastly soe should understand why ppl solo/duo these heroic mobs because killing solo mobs gives like .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 1% a kill and its pretty hard to find a full grp since most of the ppl gave up on soe a long time ago and quit.  What to discourage soloing/duo heroic mobs soe? Make solo mobs give more xp no one wants to kill solo mobs for 3hours while lfg to get like 8% its happened to me alot on my conj and nec.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by SeregWethrin on <span class="date_text">05-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:13 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Why shouldnt there be any classes in this game that can duo ^^^heroics? You keep saying there shouldnt be but give no reasons to back in up.  ^^^Heroics mobs are designed for grps 2conjs or 2necs or whatever is a group isnt it?  I really what to know why some many ppl care about this.  I mean like it doesnt affect you at all who cares if John doe and his friend is in living tombs duoing heroics how does that affect you?</div><p>Message Edited by Steven987 on <span class="date_text">05-29-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:29 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Steven987 on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[katalmach]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SeregWethrin wrote:<BR> The same thing is with the dous who can take on heroics.  ITS NOT [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING MEANT TO BE DONE THATS WHY THEY ARE NERFING IT HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Show me where it says that in game. OR where a developer said it.</P> <P>And learn to spell. The word is "DUO".</P> <P> </P> <P>However, the changes in LU24 seem to be aimed directly at the ability of high-level duos to take on any type of heroic encounter. Until the developers come on here and STATE categorically that duos cannot engage heroics, I will believe that it is our RIGHT as paying customers to enjoy ourselves playing the game as we see fit. If that right is impeded in any way, such as the nerfs in LU24, my partner and I reserve the ultimate right to withdraw our patronage from EQ2.</P> <P>My boyfriend has already done so.</P> <P align=center><IMG src="http://www.gaiateam.dsl.pipex.com/Photos/snap081.jpg"></P> <P align=left>My account expires shortly.</P> <P align=left>Snooze and you lose, SOE.</P> <P align=left> </P>