Re: 5/25/2006 Mage Changes on Test [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

curtlewis

05-26-2006, 02:15 AM

Mage changes: - Warlock: Curse of Darkness: Now affects the entire encounter. - Warlock: Interference: Daze effect targets the encounter. - Warlock: Null Caress: Reduces hate in AoE, removed stun component, increased teleport radius, and lowered the snare break chances. Epics are unaffected by the teleport/snare component. - Warlock: Dark Infestation: Increased duration to 24 seconds, increased proc chance of broodlings from 25% to 35%. Broodlings can only trigger once per Dark Infestation cast. Broodlings now cast on the run--they shouldn't stay at their owner's feet immediately after they are cast. Reduced Broodling area effect damage. - Wizard: Forge of Ro: Has a minute recast, and no longer toggles recast timer. - Wizard: Boreal: Reduced mesmerization duration and power cost. - Wizard: Numbing Cold: Increased targets from 6 to 8 and added 5% break chance to root effect. The root proc does not affect Epic targets. Warlocks already own Wizards in AOE. These two classes are supposed to be neck and neck in DPS. These changes enhance a Warlock's AOE and nerf a Wizard's even more. Ok, fine, you want Warlocks to be even more AOE focused and Wizards to suck even more at AOE. Highly misguided design goals, but whatever. That will just pidgeon hole us into uselessness... But Warlocks are virtually even with Wizards in DD. Where's the huge boost to Wizards DD so that we're properly balanced? And the aggro control to go with it... (which warlocks also need) I hope this is just Part 1 of 2... Huge Nerf #24 is already going to far with the massive root durations. But increasing the recast 600% on Forge of Ro? Come on... We ARE masters of Fire... remember? Well, we're SUPPOSED to be... I don't expect to be 3x as powerful as everyone else. That would also be unbalanced. But I do expect that I should rock at what I'm supposedly designed for. I don't. Using exclusively DDs results in mediocre dps. Our AoEs are massively inefficient and limited, but we have to throw them in to do the kind of damage we're supposed to do. That's why we have serious power management issues. AoE on just 1 or 2 targets is seriously inefficient with power. But we have no choice because our tools are poorly designed. <div></div>

Xarov

05-26-2006, 02:26 AM

<DIV>Talk to my main guild wizard and ask him what his AE dmg is on raids ( he has the master to Forge of Ro and seeing its dmg output, i wasn't surprised they nerfed the recast on it&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then again your numbing cold line has had its targets increased so you win some , you lose some </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Message Edited by Xarovix on 05-25-2006 03:28 PM

foulpla

05-26-2006, 03:43 AM

As if my guild needed another thing to consider if they even need wizards in the guild...<div></div>

Ever-Befallen

05-26-2006, 04:08 AM

Sweet, no nerfs to conjs this time.

Inchid

05-26-2006, 04:12 AM

NO NERFING TO CONJ??? I take it you ahve not done your reserch on conj. Conj is getting nerfed big time. I agree that our pets needed their dps lowered but the conj iteself had crap for dps. They are nerfing both our pets and our toons themselves. I know we are sapposed to be t2 dps but i think these changes will put us closer to t3 dps.. not good

BtilTheMage

05-26-2006, 04:16 AM

I think you might have missed the point of that post.

hellfire

05-26-2006, 04:21 AM

clearly

Inchid

05-26-2006, 04:24 AM

how can i mistake Sweet, no nerfs to conjs this time. Unles she was being funny. Im not complaining at all.. i know other mage classes are gatting hit as well. THEY ARE needed changes!Message Edited by Inchidar on 05-25-2006 05:25 PM

BtilTheMage

05-26-2006, 04:32 AM

She/He meant there are no Summoner nerfs in the part of the update that went in 5/25/06, not the whole thing. It was a joke :smileywink:

Inchid

05-26-2006, 04:46 AM

Ah ok.. I do not come here to bash peopel in any way.. just wanted to make sure he/she was not dissapointed when the conj nerf does come.

Mastire

05-26-2006, 05:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote: Mage changes: - Warlock: Curse of Darkness: Now affects the entire encounter. - Warlock: Interference: Daze effect targets the encounter. - Warlock: Null Caress: Reduces hate in AoE, removed stun component, increased teleport radius, and lowered the snare break chances. Epics are unaffected by the teleport/snare component. - Warlock: Dark Infestation: Increased duration to 24 seconds, increased proc chance of broodlings from 25% to 35%. Broodlings can only trigger once per Dark Infestation cast. Broodlings now cast on the run--they shouldn't stay at their owner's feet immediately after they are cast. Reduced Broodling area effect damage. - Wizard: Forge of Ro: Has a minute recast, and no longer toggles recast timer. - Wizard: Boreal: Reduced mesmerization duration and power cost. - Wizard: Numbing Cold: Increased targets from 6 to 8 and added 5% break chance to root effect. The root proc does not affect Epic targets. Warlocks already own Wizards in AOE. These two classes are supposed to be neck and neck in DPS. These changes enhance a Warlock's AOE and nerf a Wizard's even more. Ok, fine, you want Warlocks to be even more AOE focused and Wizards to suck even more at AOE. Highly misguided design goals, but whatever. That will just pidgeon hole us into uselessness... But Warlocks are virtually even with Wizards in DD. Where's the huge boost to Wizards DD so that we're properly balanced? And the aggro control to go with it... (which warlocks also need) I hope this is just Part 1 of 2... Huge Nerf #24 is already going to far with the massive root durations. But increasing the recast 600% on Forge of Ro? Come on... We ARE masters of Fire... remember? Well, we're SUPPOSED to be... I don't expect to be 3x as powerful as everyone else. That would also be unbalanced. But I do expect that I should rock at what I'm supposedly designed for. I don't. Using exclusively DDs results in mediocre dps. Our AoEs are massively inefficient and limited, but we have to throw them in to do the kind of damage we're supposed to do. That's why we have serious power management issues. AoE on just 1 or 2 targets is seriously inefficient with power. But we have no choice because our tools are poorly designed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Warlock Changes This Patch <OL> <LI>How do those changes increase a Warlocks DPS, do you know what spells were changed. Null Cares is out levle 55 spell, what it curently does is teleports mobs arround and stuns them. It's only use was in a rare situation when I was about to die to a group of mobs while soloing I could teleport them in a random direction up to 20m away from me, and stun them for a breif second. </LI> <LI>Curse of Darkness is a useless spell. All this change will do is make it easyer for us to get Nul cristals. </LI> <LI>Change to inerference Line is Daze hits AE no effect changing our DPS whatso ever just a change due to losing basicaly both of our AE stuns</LI> <LI>Broodlings have been bugged since day 1, they have been fixed and bugged, repedadly. This change is long overdue for that spell. And they also nerfed the damage this spell does, it now Procs instantly and every 4 secs rather then every 3 secs.</LI></OL> Wizzard ChangesThis Patch <OL> <LI>Forge of Ro Spell can still be used for 36 seconds every minute. That is still quite nice</LI> <LI>Mez, With control changes this is the 1st one to effect you. And its a spell I rarly see wizzards use so no big loss</LI> <LI>Numbing cold: spell looks kinda crappy but its still getting a boost</LI></OL> Other Changes in LU 24 <OL> <LI>Basic Way roots are handled. Nerf to warlocks Bost to Wizzards. Wizzards are King of DD, warlocks are extremly good at Dots, and Average at DD<Furys get a harder hitting DD then warlocks> So instead of when we cast Apoc it having a 8% hostile spell + 8%x5 / tick = 48% chance of breaking we now have a 5x15% = 75% chance of breaking while wizzards cast ther most powerfull spell Ice Nova, before 16% chance to break. Now 20% chance.</LI> <LI>"Warlock: Devastation: Removed stun component <Was a 3 second stun PreLU22 was a 4 second stun>, Warlock: Gas Cloud: Reduced stun duration to 1.5s<Was a 4 Second Stun>. Lowered reuse timer from 15s to 9s,Warlock: Freeze: Reduced stun duration from 4 to 3 seconds. Power cost reduced slightly." That is 4 stuns that have been removed or lessed compared to what stun changes for the wizzard?</LI> <LI>Previous Wizzard nerf ???? </LI></OL> One last thing on Roots being totaly unbalenced: <OL> <LI>Cower= 15% chance to dispell when target takes damage, resulting in a fear/snare. lats for 5 secs 30% chance to dispell when target takes Damage</LI> <LI>Truss = 15% chance to dispell when target Takes damage, rusulting in a snare. Lasts for 10 secs 5% chance to break on hostile action 5% chance to break when target receives damage.</LI> <LI>Fear normaly haves the mobs running towards the warlock to begin with them able to attack us or has them fleeing through walls. As well as our root effect has a 3X greater chance to break over yours,as well as lasing for 1/2 the length. That is totaly unbalened giving the wizzard a much better survivability while soloing over the warlock.</LI></OL> Warlocks have already been hit by the nerf bat destroying the utility they had. When one nerf comes in your direction, the same day they fix some severly broken warlock spells don't be crying foul. Basicaly what I'm saying is both classes have there +'s and -'s get over them. As a warlock I will never be able to nuke for 16k damage. And as a wizzard u will never be able to do 50k damage in AE. Live with your class and don't ry to get one another nerfed. Put all your anger when it belongs and get the necro's/conj's nerfed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dejah

05-26-2006, 06:16 AM

As Mastire pointed out, you're misunderstood the change to Forge of Ro. Currently, Forge of Ro lasts for 36 sec, with a 9 sec recast. Since it's a toggle ability, the recast timer begins when the Forge of Ro expires after 36 seconds. So you could cast it once every 45 seconds. After the change, Forge of Ro will still last for 36 sec, but the recast will be 1 min. However, since they are removing the toggle portion of it, the recast timer will start right away. So you'll be able to cast it once every minute. 15 second difference? Not that big of a deal. What I'm more conerned about is being able to cancel the forge early like we could before. I don't recall it showing up in either my maintained or effects window. Forge of Ro sometimes goes a little crazy attacking random things through walls and such after it's initial targets die, so I've gotten quite used to canceling as soon as combat is finished and before it can get me into trouble. The only reason I can think of for them removing the toggle is because it forces the entire recast time on the Wizard. I guess they don't want wizards that were in a group killing stuff real fast to be able to just cancel after combat so that the recast timer would be up by the next pull.

Xarov

05-26-2006, 06:21 AM

<DIV>Mastire the changes made with warlocks out weighs the nerfs we are taking period... Did you also know that on test even after a mob dies your spell cast on an ae will still complete now and hit the rest of the encounter ? That right there is huge for warlocks... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah been along time since SoE showed some Warlock Love, im glad im still around for it </DIV>

Mastire

05-26-2006, 07:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xarovix wrote: <DIV>Mastire the changes made with warlocks out weighs the nerfs we are taking period... Did you also know that on test even after a mob dies your spell cast on an ae will still complete now and hit the rest of the encounter ? That right there is huge for warlocks... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah been along time since SoE showed some Warlock Love, im glad im still around for it </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That Change is purly for groups. Raid mobs have alot more HP as it is. If the mobs are dieng in the 4 secs it takes to cast a spell then your raiding single group stuff <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Most warlocks will switch off the MA to cast an AE spell if a mob is near death on a raid. This is accualy just making the warlock class more [Removed for Content] to play. I won't complain about it, but it dumbs down the warlock class some. Biggest change to warlocks is the way Root breaks now. You thaught they broke alot before. they will break 2x as ofen now on damage spells. And the loss of our stuning power has hurt our utility greatly. Dark infestation Damage was nerfed... No other spells were increased. Only positives I see is that we get 2 AE deagro spells now and a way to generate nil crysals fast. So to make a long post short. The changes in whole are a nerf of the warlock & wizzard class not a blessing.Message Edited by Mastire on 05-25-2006 08:07 PM

Ever-Befallen

05-26-2006, 09:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BtilTheMage wrote: She/He meant there are no Summoner nerfs in the part of the update that went in 5/25/06, not the whole thing. It was a joke :smileywink: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, glad someone understood it.

Xarov

05-26-2006, 12:11 PM

Mastire do you raid? Mainly for groups eh ? you know how many extra AE's i will be able to land on raids now because they will no longer be interrupted ? ( i know a lot more then i do now ) Do you know how often i use dark infestation ? ( take a guess its never up its always either casted or about to be casted ) . All you look at is the roots being nerfed , stuns either being taken away or being reduced... 2 extra deagro spells, quicker casting nebula, potentially lesser agro drawing apocalypse, being able to farm nil crystals ALOT faster for our spells ( yes i use my netherlord, rift and soon null caress ) often. So lets see, intial look at LU 24, i hated it.... Then SoE thru us a fast ball and for once gave Warlocks some major love .... enough said

SmEaGoLLuM

05-26-2006, 12:36 PM

<div></div>[Removed for Content] @ OP. Keep living on these forums and complaining about wizards until you are no 1 dps in every single situation no questions asked. Same goes for some other wizards who regularly post on the boards complaining. Funny how it's always the same people. It was hardly a nerf, more of a fix since it has a long duration and is toggable anyway. Being able to parse higher on singles all the time and multis some of the time is just not enough, you need to be able to parse higher all the time, not only that, way higher :smileyvery-happy: as you said with singles. You don't expect to be 3x more powerful than anyone else, just 2x more :smileyhappy: Whine on.<div></div>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on 05-26-2006 07:38 PM

enrique_to

05-26-2006, 12:39 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>curtlewis wrote: Warlocks already own Wizards in AOE. That's trueThese two classes are supposed to be neck and neck in DPS. AgreeThese changes enhance a Warlock's AOE and nerf a Wizard's even more. Ok, fine, you want Warlocks to be even more AOE focused and Wizards to suck even more at AOE. Highly misguided design goals, but whatever. That will just pidgeon hole us into uselessness... But Warlocks are virtually even with Wizards in DD. Where's the huge boost to Wizards DD so that we're properly balanced? And the aggro control to go with it... (which warlocks also need) What?!? LOLWarlock are NOT even with Wizards in DD, may be you are forgeting your SIGNATURE spell called Ice comet? I hope this is just Part 1 of 2... Huge Nerf #24 is already going to far with the massive root durations. But increasing the recast 600% on Forge of Ro? Come on... We ARE masters of Fire... remember? Well, we're SUPPOSED to be... I don't expect to be 3x as powerful as everyone else. That would also be unbalanced. But I do expect that I should rock at what I'm supposedly designed for. I don't. Using exclusively DDs results in mediocre dps. You also have DoT like we have. Use them. You do not need AoE damage on Single target situation and you get only nerf in ONE of you AE damage spell spells What a HUGE AE Nerf!!!. Sorry about the root nerf. Our AoEs are massively inefficient and limited, but we have to throw them in to do the kind of damage we're supposed to do. That's why we have serious power management issues. AoE on just 1 or 2 targets is seriously inefficient with power. But we have no choice because our tools are poorly designed. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Come on...I do not like other classes being nerf... But do not compare Warlocks and Wizards DPS cause it do not make sense. We are AE specialist. You are Single target specialist. We must overdamage you at AE encounters and you must overdamage us at Single target encounters. And that's the fact. Do not forget you still having Ice comet (your signature spell) and this spell did not loose the stun compontent like our signature spell (Devastation) does.Wizards overdamage a Warlock at single target with ease and Warlocks overdamage a Wizards at multiple target. That's true and that's will alwais be true.Do you want to speak about Fusion? Did not fusion make you overdamage warlocks in a AoE sitiuation. Did not? Fusion does a GREAT amount of damage. Warlock class had some great unsolved issues and now they are being fixed. So please cause your class is being nerf do not ask the nerf of another classes. That's a pointless and even stupid argument. I love these new LU changes. They are great for warlock. But LU24 started nerfing warlock stronger that wizards. Now it's more balanced. Both classes are nerfed and both class get some good things. May be we get some more good fix. But most people belive warlocks needed fixes and looks like now we are having them.Just remember most combat situation are single target in EQ2. So you are more qualified than us. </div>Message Edited by enrique_tome on 05-26-2006 01:50 AM

Magus_Bl

05-26-2006, 06:46 PM

These are minor changes and nothing to get all worked up over. It is hardly a nerf/boost for either class. Just tweaks.

Tro

05-26-2006, 07:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote: Mage changes: - Warlock: Curse of Darkness: Now affects the entire encounter. - Warlock: Interference: Daze effect targets the encounter. - Warlock: Null Caress: Reduces hate in AoE, removed stun component, increased teleport radius, and lowered the snare break chances. Epics are unaffected by the teleport/snare component. - Warlock: Dark Infestation: Increased duration to 24 seconds, increased proc chance of broodlings from 25% to 35%. Broodlings can only trigger once per Dark Infestation cast. Broodlings now cast on the run--they shouldn't stay at their owner's feet immediately after they are cast. Reduced Broodling area effect damage. - Wizard: Forge of Ro: Has a minute recast, and no longer toggles recast timer. - Wizard: Boreal: Reduced mesmerization duration and power cost. - Wizard: Numbing Cold: Increased targets from 6 to 8 and added 5% break chance to root effect. The root proc does not affect Epic targets. Warlocks already own Wizards in AOE. These two classes are supposed to be neck and neck in DPS. These changes enhance a Warlock's AOE and nerf a Wizard's even more. Ok, fine, you want Warlocks to be even more AOE focused and Wizards to suck even more at AOE. Highly misguided design goals, but whatever. That will just pidgeon hole us into uselessness... But Warlocks are virtually even with Wizards in DD. Where's the huge boost to Wizards DD so that we're properly balanced? And the aggro control to go with it... (which warlocks also need) I hope this is just Part 1 of 2... Huge Nerf #24 is already going to far with the massive root durations. But increasing the recast 600% on Forge of Ro? Come on... We ARE masters of Fire... remember? Well, we're SUPPOSED to be... I don't expect to be 3x as powerful as everyone else. That would also be unbalanced. But I do expect that I should rock at what I'm supposedly designed for. I don't. Using exclusively DDs results in mediocre dps. Our AoEs are massively inefficient and limited, but we have to throw them in to do the kind of damage we're supposed to do. That's why we have serious power management issues. AoE on just 1 or 2 targets is seriously inefficient with power. But we have no choice because our tools are poorly designed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Comparing the two, I thought Warlocks were superior in AE encounters and Wizards were superior in Single target encounters. Am I mistaken? If not then I don't understand your complaint..

Murazor_AB

05-26-2006, 09:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Inchidar wrote: NO NERFING TO CONJ??? I take it you ahve not done your reserch on conj. Conj is getting nerfed big time. I agree that our pets needed their dps lowered but the conj iteself had crap for dps. They are nerfing both our pets and our toons themselves. I know we are sapposed to be t2 dps but i think these changes will put us closer to t3 dps.. not good <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Conjurers are supposed to be t3 dps with tank pet and t2 with assasin pet

heleni

05-26-2006, 11:17 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mastire wrote:<div></div>Live with your class and don't ry to get one another nerfed.Put all your anger when it belongs and get the necro's/conj's nerfed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>/boggle ............ hehebsides, since we all know wizards are the biggest babies in eq2, highly doubt they will ever be able to live with their class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Cuz

05-26-2006, 11:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> helenius wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mastire wrote: Live with your class and don't ry to get one another nerfed. Put all your anger when it belongs and get the necro's/conj's nerfed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> /boggle ............ hehe bsides, since we all know wizards are the biggest babies in eq2, highly doubt they will ever be able to live with their class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Your post doesn't show a great deal of maturity either.

DobyMT

05-26-2006, 11:36 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> helenius wrote: <div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Mastire wrote: <div></div> Live with your class and don't ry to get one another nerfed. Put all your anger when it belongs and get the necro's/conj's nerfed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>/boggle ............ hehebsides, since we all know wizards are the biggest babies in eq2, highly doubt they will ever be able to live with their class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <hr> </blockquote>Your post doesn't show a great deal of maturity either.<hr></blockquote>umm if you are a class that wizards have begged and pleaded with to get nerfed, you would agree with that statement. every summoner that is worth their salt would probably agree.</div>

Cuz

05-27-2006, 01:38 AM

I play 10 classes, so pretty much all my classes have tried to nerf another of my classe.

IllusiveThoughts

05-27-2006, 01:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote: I play 10 classes, so pretty much all my classes have tried to nerf another of my classe. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I find fighting with myself most humerous as well. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Asterra

05-27-2006, 11:53 AM

<blockquote><hr>Comparing the two, I thought Warlocks were superior in AE encounters and Wizards were superior in Single target encounters. Am I mistaken? If not then I don't understand your complaint..<hr></blockquote>I think I can help you out here. All you need is the refreshing perspective of the sort of player who raids every day, at every opportunity, with nothing but the best fellow players to compare onesself against.Here are some enlightening figures: In AE encounters, our Warlock does anywhere from two to three times the DPS of our Wizards. Think about that. The Wizards can pump out a good 1500 DPS in such encounters but the Warlock is always doing 3000 to 4500 unless he gets a nasty agro infection. On single targets, our Warlock is neck-and-neck with our Wizards, and in fact averages ever so slightly higher on a full-raid parse.Starting to have a better understanding of the complaint?This has nothing to do with any class being "overpowered". Far from it. It has everything to do with the traditionally underpowered Wizard. Everything. By rights, Wizards should be regularly capable of 3000 to 4500 DPS on single targets. It goes without saying that Wizards do not even come close.

sk1llfatal

05-27-2006, 02:23 PM

What on earth are you talking about, quite easy to do 3k dps for Wizards on a 6 mob encounter, and 1.5k single target dps.

Emerix

05-27-2006, 02:33 PM

<DIV>For the OP</DIV> <DIV>You are aware that wizzards outdamage Warlocks in single mob encounters VERY easily ?Get your facts straight . its good wizzards suck at AOE because warlocks suck and single mobs . and most encounters are single mobs .</DIV>

Asterra

05-28-2006, 08:30 PM

<blockquote><hr>You are aware that wizzards outdamage Warlocks in single mob encounters VERY easily ?<hr></blockquote>You are incorrect. It would be accurate to say that Wizards are supposed to outdamage Warlocks on a single target by a factor of two or three, based on how Warlocks outdamage Wizards to such a degree on multiple targets. It is hideously inaccurate to suggest that Wizards actually do have an easy time of outdamaging Warlocks on a single target. Indeed, it's such a close race at this time that any small advantage tends to tip the balance in one or the other's favor. Speaking of the endgame, at any rate.

Worrick

05-28-2006, 09:43 PM

When comparing wizard and warlock single target DPS you have to remember wizards have soem damage that doesn't get parsed to them. Ice shield for example, does about 1k per hit for 3 hits every 20 seconds or so. Thats 3k damage that a wizard does that they don't get parse credit for that the tank does which helps them hold agro. Also they have a short duration spell that adds a very nice proc to every spell caster in their group, i don't know the numbers for that but it is pretty nice and wizards don't get parse credit for it. On the other hand Warlocks get credit on parses for every spell we have. One of the reasons we often get agro. One of the ways warlocks do good single target damage is useing soem of our AE stuff on singles along with our single nukes. I see very few wizards who remember to use Forge of Ro. It is effective even on raids in AE or single target. In a situation where there are too many AEs to use Dark Infestation, the warlock pet from ancient teachings in DoF, then our single target DPS is very low. If afetr comparing a wizard useing all of his tools and remembering to add the extra stuff into his damge, like ice shield. To a warlock, you will see a wizard easily beats out a warlock's DPS on single targets. Single target encounter are the majority of the encounters on raids and exping. Aside from DoF which seemed to have a 50/50 mix of group or single.

enrique_to

05-30-2006, 12:39 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Asterra wrote:<blockquote><hr>Comparing the two, I thought Warlocks were superior in AE encounters and Wizards were superior in Single target encounters. Am I mistaken? If not then I don't understand your complaint..<hr></blockquote>I think I can help you out here. All you need is the refreshing perspective of the sort of player who raids every day, at every opportunity, with nothing but the best fellow players to compare onesself against.Here are some enlightening figures: In AE encounters, our Warlock does anywhere from two to three times the DPS of our Wizards. Think about that. The Wizards can pump out a good 1500 DPS in such encounters but the Warlock is always doing 3000 to 4500 unless he gets a nasty agro infection. On single targets, our Warlock is neck-and-neck with our Wizards, and in fact averages ever so slightly higher on a full-raid parse.Starting to have a better understanding of the complaint?This has nothing to do with any class being "overpowered". Far from it. It has everything to do with the traditionally underpowered Wizard. Everything. By rights, Wizards should be regularly capable of 3000 to 4500 DPS on single targets. It goes without saying that Wizards do not even come close.<hr></blockquote>I do not undestand your complaint and I think you are wrong and malicious...On AE encounters Warlocks rules and on Single encounter Wizards rules, that's the fact. Raid situations are specials. Cause agroo control. On RAID situation both classes are neck-and-neck cause agroo limitations. You can't employ your full DPS potential as I can't. Why? Agroo. If we try to do as much damage as we can... We'll die. It's ease no? Now another point of view... How many raids are AE situations? And best of all. How many AE Raids a Warlock can employ AE spells without fear? Facts:Solo:Wizards Solo better than warlocks.Group: Wizards rules over warlock on single target spells and Warlocks rules over wizards on AE situarions.Raids: Wizards and Warlocks are neck-and-neck on DPS... It's fair. I do not see why a Wizard should overdamage a Warlock on raid situations if a Warlock can't employ it's full damage potential on Raids cause agroo...There are few AE Raids and there are very very few Raid situations where a warlock can employ it's AE potential. Cause tanks can't hold the warlocks agroo. So stop complaining cause these arguments are not valid. Raids are special situations. My personal experience is that the longer the encounter is, the hardest the tank hold my agroo. Even in single target situations. That's cause Raids are too special situations. Just try to keep you power and do not gain too much agroo.

Suraklin

05-30-2006, 01:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trook wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote: Mage changes: - Warlock: Curse of Darkness: Now affects the entire encounter. - Warlock: Interference: Daze effect targets the encounter. - Warlock: Null Caress: Reduces hate in AoE, removed stun component, increased teleport radius, and lowered the snare break chances. Epics are unaffected by the teleport/snare component. - Warlock: Dark Infestation: Increased duration to 24 seconds, increased proc chance of broodlings from 25% to 35%. Broodlings can only trigger once per Dark Infestation cast. Broodlings now cast on the run--they shouldn't stay at their owner's feet immediately after they are cast. Reduced Broodling area effect damage. - Wizard: Forge of Ro: Has a minute recast, and no longer toggles recast timer. - Wizard: Boreal: Reduced mesmerization duration and power cost. - Wizard: Numbing Cold: Increased targets from 6 to 8 and added 5% break chance to root effect. The root proc does not affect Epic targets. Warlocks already own Wizards in AOE. These two classes are supposed to be neck and neck in DPS. These changes enhance a Warlock's AOE and nerf a Wizard's even more. Ok, fine, you want Warlocks to be even more AOE focused and Wizards to suck even more at AOE. Highly misguided design goals, but whatever. That will just pidgeon hole us into uselessness... But Warlocks are virtually even with Wizards in DD. Where's the huge boost to Wizards DD so that we're properly balanced? And the aggro control to go with it... (which warlocks also need) I hope this is just Part 1 of 2... Huge Nerf #24 is already going to far with the massive root durations. But increasing the recast 600% on Forge of Ro? Come on... We ARE masters of Fire... remember? Well, we're SUPPOSED to be... I don't expect to be 3x as powerful as everyone else. That would also be unbalanced. But I do expect that I should rock at what I'm supposedly designed for. I don't. Using exclusively DDs results in mediocre dps. Our AoEs are massively inefficient and limited, but we have to throw them in to do the kind of damage we're supposed to do. That's why we have serious power management issues. AoE on just 1 or 2 targets is seriously inefficient with power. But we have no choice because our tools are poorly designed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Comparing the two, I thought Warlocks were superior in AE encounters and Wizards were superior in Single target encounters. Am I mistaken? If not then I don't understand your complaint.. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Wizards just like to gripe. Biggest whiners I've ever seen in any MMO.

emagine

05-31-2006, 08:57 AM

You know, playing several classes and raiding for quite some time... you come to the classes, and everyone has gripes about there classes, but now how in the hell can a wizard complain about his dps vs a warlock... grouping within instances, its a toss up really cant compare the two... the fights are to quick, and depends on who has what nuke up.... now when your talkin about raid... (lets say the mob isnt poison/dis res, or heat/cold res) group encounter, the warlock should come up on top of the wizard... not by much but enought for a differance to be seen.... and single targets a wizard should be above a warlock... if you dont see those outcomes... do yourself a favor... buy some master spells, parse yourself so you know your best possible combination of spells to maximise you dps.... if your warlock is beating your wizard on single encounters, get rid of your wiz... or if your wizard is beating your warlock in group encounters get rid of the warlock... better yet why embarass the classes anymore and make yourself a petcaster.<div></div>

Gorhauth

05-31-2006, 11:56 PM

<blockquote><hr>emagine wrote:You know, playing several classes and raiding for quite some time... you come to the classes, and everyone has gripes about there classes, but now how in the hell can a wizard complain about his dps vs a warlock... ...better yet why embarass the classes anymore and make yourself a petcaster.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Find one post by curt that isn't whining about how [Removed for Content] wizards are when they should be the top in every DPS parse ever. I bet you can't do it. I believe he is the person in most dire need of a reroll ever.<div></div>

foulpla

06-01-2006, 01:08 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<blockquote><hr>emagine wrote:You know, playing several classes and raiding for quite some time... you come to the classes, and everyone has gripes about there classes, but now how in the hell can a wizard complain about his dps vs a warlock... ...better yet why embarass the classes anymore and make yourself a petcaster.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Find one post by curt that isn't whining about how [Removed for Content] wizards are when they should be the top in every DPS parse ever. I bet you can't do it. I believe he is the person in most dire need of a reroll ever.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Or he could do like I'm doing and go<strike>ing</strike> warlock in LU24.Edit: Fixed, didn't sound right.</div>Message Edited by foulplay2 on 05-31-2006 02:08 PM

Asterra

06-01-2006, 03:15 AM

<blockquote><hr>On AE encounters Warlocks rules and on Single encounter Wizards rules, that's the fact.<hr></blockquote>No, this is patently wrong. Right now, things are precisely as I have said they are. Warlocks achieve multiples of a Wizard's DPS in AE encounters, and are neck and neck on single targets. In fact, if you're familiar with the upcoming changes to both classes, soon even the single targets will be easily won by Warlocks, for they are receiving upgrades and Wizards are scheduled to endure some significant nerfs.<blockquote><hr>On RAID situation both classes are neck-and-neck cause agroo limitations. You can't employ your full DPS potential as I can't. Why? Agroo. If we try to do as much damage as we can... We'll die. It's ease no?<hr></blockquote>If you are talking about AE encounters, then it's very true that neither class can utilize their full output all of the time. With that said, good Wizards and Warlocks have a pretty good idea of how much is "too much" and they can ride that fine line to maximize DPS, and achieve the figures I have already submitted: Wizards average 1500 and Warlocks average 3000 to 4500.On single targets, both classes can chain everything in their arsenal as quickly as the spells will let them, and never get agro. If you're experiencing things differently, I can only suggest that you might want to rearrange things in your raid. In any event, with both classes chaining as many nukes as possible, it's anyone's guess as to who ends up doing the most DPS.Of course my point in underscoring these facts is that Wizards have no advantages over Warlocks, while Warlocks very definitely have major advantages over Wizards, and it's highly curious that the upcoming changes seem destined to worsen the problem.

silentpsycho

06-01-2006, 03:50 AM

In my experience, Wizards who don't out parse Warlocks on single target encounters are either lazy or incompetent. I've played both, I've parsed both.

Gungo

06-01-2006, 04:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> On AE encounters Warlocks rules and on Single encounter Wizards rules, that's the fact. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, this is patently wrong. Right now, things are precisely as I have said they are. Warlocks achieve multiples of a Wizard's DPS in AE encounters, and are neck and neck on single targets. In fact, if you're familiar with the upcoming changes to both classes, soon even the single targets will be easily won by Warlocks, for they are receiving upgrades and Wizards are scheduled to endure some significant nerfs. <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> On RAID situation both classes are neck-and-neck cause agroo limitations. You can't employ your full DPS potential as I can't. Why? Agroo. If we try to do as much damage as we can... We'll die. It's ease no? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you are talking about AE encounters, then it's very true that neither class can utilize their full output all of the time. With that said, good Wizards and Warlocks have a pretty good idea of how much is "too much" and they can ride that fine line to maximize DPS, and achieve the figures I have already submitted: Wizards average 1500 and Warlocks average 3000 to 4500. On single targets, both classes can chain everything in their arsenal as quickly as the spells will let them, and never get agro. If you're experiencing things differently, I can only suggest that you might want to rearrange things in your raid. In any event, with both classes chaining as many nukes as possible, it's anyone's guess as to who ends up doing the most DPS. Of course my point in underscoring these facts is that Wizards have no advantages over Warlocks, while Warlocks very definitely have major advantages over Wizards, and it's highly curious that the upcoming changes seem destined to worsen the problem. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Hahah funny since you don't include ANY of the wizard procs or ice shields DPS to your totals. The include the fact that that extra dps is effectivly agro free for the wizard. Its starting to get annoying with people complaing abotu eahc others raids DPS totals. When in fact many classes can not reach those DPS totals w/o having many buffing classes, PROC's, Dam shields, haste, dps buffs, Buffs, debuffs. From other classes in order to reach those RAID dps totals. But for some reason everyone wants to be the big man on campus and be the #1 on parse even if it wasn't thier dps that got them there. IMHO the only DPS COMPARISON between classes should come from soloing that way you are not blaming classes for DPS they don't produce. Druids have a nice little doubel atk aa. If i group a fury w a coercer, illusinist, dirge, inquisitor, and wizard max his haste, dps, w high doubel atks. Then i place a couple of dam shields and applied procs. Then that fury out dps's the wizard shoudl the fury get his melee dps nerfed? NO IT IS NOT HIS DPS. Its the ice shiedl the wizard put on him its the dps buff the coercer gave him its the haste the illusinost gave him its the dam shield and buffs the inq gave him. Its the melee proc the dirge gave him. Its rediculous to say a class is doing more dps then another class because of buffs place don them by other classes. As such the ICE SHIELD and proc buff is directly associated to the wizard. DPS score. Its jut that non official third party parser you use Does not take that dps into account. Hence why SoE does not officially acknowledge parsers in game. Message Edited by Gungo on 05-31-2006 05:25 PM

emagine

06-01-2006, 09:23 AM

Asterra, I have no idea what guild your in, nor have anyclue on what tier your raiding, you sure were playing the same game?... Sorry I been around along time, and to me it seems like a you really dont know what your talkin about or B your parser is broke... on a raid mob... Im talkin TRUE epics.... no warlock is goin to parse 4500 dps... Sorry ... just wont happen... Taking out trash mobs on 20 second fight does not count.... All of my spells are M1, and i have 50 aa's, 8 pts in my crits alone..bunch of procing gear, just look up my info.... anyways... b4 i go any further, please enlighten me on guild, what you raid, ect... I find your posts a lil to far fetched to swallow.Honestly a good wizard can keep up with the warlock in ae encounters, and warlocks can keep up somewhat decent with wizards in single encounters (if our broodlings go off lol) The numbers you posted i may of gotten doing a PPR raid for fun at 70 just to rift then apocolipse everything... then yeah maybe 4500.. but thats trash mobs.... you cant count fights like that for actual dps... sounds like you guys should get rid of your wizard, he seems to be the bad link... maybe have him upgrade his spells... get some procing gear ect... even some aa's<div></div>

curtlewis

06-01-2006, 11:01 AM

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<blockquote>Find one post by curt that isn't whining about how [Removed for Content] wizards are when they should be the top in every DPS parse ever. I bet you can't do it. I believe he is the person in most dire need of a reroll ever.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>No, I'm just sick of SOE failing to deliver.This post only illustrates how oblivious you are to the problem. Reroll? Why should I have/want to? If the classes were properly balanced, I wouldn't have a problem. <hr>Someone else wrote:In my experience, Wizards who don't out parse Warlocks on single target encounters are either lazy or incompetent. I've played both, I've parsed both.<hr>Then you don't know how to play a Warlock very well. I've analyzed logs of some of the best wizards in the game. They don't average 1500dps. Anyone who says they do is lying. Their best 20% (at most) is 1500 or better. They AVERAGE 1100-1200. I average 1000-1100 on my raids, tossing the highs and lows out. Not bad considering we're not a major contender. So I'm right in there. Good enough that if classes were balanced, I wouldn't be here complaining about balance issues...In groups, when chain casting on single targets, it's nearly impossible to beat a Warlock. I know. I've tried. It should be as easy for me to dust them in DD as it is for them to dust me in AoE. Also bear in mind the majority of encounters include more than one mob. So my DD has to be effective on multi pulls to maintain any semblance of balance (yeah, right, like THAT will ever happen). I have 80% Master I. I'll beat them roughly 20% of the time at best. In AOE, forget it, they leave you in the dust. And Conjurors and Necros leave them in the dust.Neither class is truly a 'tier 1' dps class. And by all reasoning they should be. Add to that raid mob immunities (which I haven't had a prob with in KoS, but they were completed screwed prior that) and we're both hosed, especially Warlocks in Gates of Ahk Aten. Mobs that are both Poison AND Disease Immune? What's a Warlock supposed to do on THAT raid? take notes? Handle the DKP entries? 80% of the mobs there are Ice Immune as well, which took out all our big nukes. Dropping our DPS by at least half.But, IMO, some mobs SHOULD have some immunities. Like in EQ1. This allows various classes their chance to shine. But they should NEVER trivialize a classes contribution like they did in GoAA. But if they were to institute say 50% of major raid mobs had an immunity of some type, because of the poor design of the spells for most classes, too many classes would be trivialized liek a quarter of the time. It just wont' work. Because the design is borked.I just want to step up and be able to do my part. Not half my part. I really dont' care if you like that I post about these balancing problems or not. You're not the one ignoring me anyways. SOE is. They ignore us when we say nothing. They ignore us when we post data and numbers. They ignore us when we make emotional and factual based pleas. Find a dev post in this forum. Go ahead. We'll wait.Might wanna bring air with you. You're gonna be down a loooooooong time. And comin up empty handed, too. That's the truly sad part of the whole thing.</div>Message Edited by curtlewis on 06-01-2006 12:34 AM

IllusiveThoughts

06-01-2006, 06:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote: <DIV> You're not the one ignoring me anyways. SOE is. They ignore us when we say nothing. They ignore us when we post data and numbers. They ignore us when we make emotional and factual based pleas. Find a dev post in this forum. Go ahead. We'll wait. Message Edited by curtlewis on 06-01-200612:34 AM </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So true. The last dev post we had in the wizard forum was not even related to wizards but a graphics reply. and that was a few months ago. I cant even remember the last warlock dev reply. Theres only 2 possible senarios for the lack of comment. 1. dev's are avoiding the issues and having to deal with them by not commenting on some of the rather insiteful posts about key issues wrong with the classes. (see stickied posts in the forums) 2. dev's feel we are where we should be dps wise -which can be further expanded upon to; -nerfing everyone down using us as the meter stick. I feel this is the real reason we are not seeing a lvl increase in EoF so they can get a handle on all the classes and balance them as best as can be, in hopes the next expansion (after EoF) wont go and [Removed for Content] the balance again.

Dabbie

06-01-2006, 07:53 PM

No, this is patently wrong. Right now, things are precisely as I have said they are. Warlocks achieve multiples of a Wizard's DPS in AE encounters, and are neck and neck on single targets. In fact, if you're familiar with the upcoming changes to both classes, soon even the single targets will be easily won by Warlocks, for they are receiving upgrades and Wizards are scheduled to endure some significant nerfs. Um... want to tell me where those upgrades are? Because I've not seen anything but nerfs for warlocks this upcoming patch. They are even nerfing the damage on dark infestation with their "fixes". Please get your facts straight when you post. As for wizard dps... i own them in multiple encounters, but I have to work very hard to beat them (and that's when they are slacking) on single targets. I'm also all mastered/proc'd 50 AA'd out. If you want to work for a boost in wizard single target dps, sure, but please don't try to nerf classes who don't need it in the process. Cast Lvl 70 Warlock Blackburrow <div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

06-01-2006, 08:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dabbie wrote: No, this is patently wrong. Right now, things are precisely as I have said they are. Warlocks achieve multiples of a Wizard's DPS in AE encounters, and are neck and neck on single targets. In fact, if you're familiar with the upcoming changes to both classes, soon even the single targets will be easily won by Warlocks, for they are receiving upgrades and Wizards are scheduled to endure some significant nerfs. Um... want to tell me where those upgrades are? Because I've not seen anything but nerfs for warlocks this upcoming patch. They are even nerfing the damage on dark infestation with their "fixes". Please get your facts straight when you post. As for wizard dps... i own them in multiple encounters, but I have to work very hard to beat them (and that's when they are slacking) on single targets. I'm also all mastered/proc'd 50 AA'd out. If you want to work for a boost in wizard single target dps, sure, but please don't try to nerf classes who don't need it in the process. Cast Lvl 70 Warlock Blackburrow <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I dont see a request to nerf warlock dps in that post. I think your reading too much into it. I also can put 4-500 dps on the warlocks i've grouped with on single targets when fusion is up and when its not i'm only 200-300 ahead. I'm not quite sure how warlocks are doing the claimed 3000-4000 dps figures and not dieing from agro. the upgrades so to speak are the pitiful aoe de-agro's you all get in lu24. (2 of them) one emergency and one castable. whist wizards get one castable (and also acts as emergency)

Dabbie

06-01-2006, 08:21 PM

Yeah, we're getting two very small aoe hate debuffs, but i don't really see how that's improving our single target dps much. As for doing 3000-4000 dps and not dying-- well, firstly, doing 3000-4000 means its very situational (tons of mobs with medium hp), and as for me, if i get about to 2000dps, i start pulling aggro in the encounter. So i don't think people can say "i do 3000-4000 dps consistently without pulling aggro." Cast Lvl 70 Warlock Blackburrow SoN <div></div>

curtlewis

06-01-2006, 09:29 PM

Yeah, it's funny how people take the best DPS they ever did and it suddenly becomes their average.Kinda like pricing on the broker. The 'going rate' is the absolute lowest it's ever been sold at, right?I find it hard to believe that SOE would use Wizards as the yardstick for balancing. Especially since we're so unbalanced in relation to ourselves. 80% fire? I think they're playing Ostrich and burying their head in the sand. They hear that a wizard can solo a mob, so obviously we're fine right? They hear a wizard can solo a tough mob, so if anything they're overpowered, right? WRONG! Soloing is irrelevant to balance folks. Some classes by their very nature will solo better than others. Obvious examples of this are healers. Most mages have skills, power or abilities that translate to good soloing. Coercers are the best soloers in the game currently (and the upcoming changes will only make them better). You'd think with 26k Fusions it'd be Wizards, right? Obviously we run around one shotting triple up white named heroics, right? WRONG! Personally, I'd never attempt such a mob. I know people that do, and the means of doing so is getting nerfed (Corona, I hardly knew ye), so we'll just be left with weak roots, mediocre nukes and damage, no armor and no hitpoints. Try to out DPS an Assassin or Swashbuckler that knows their stuff sometime. Good [Removed for Content] luck. Or a Bruiser. Brigands you have a chance with. All of those classes have many advantages over wizards (or warlocks) and virtually no disadvantages. So how is it balanced that they can so easily outdamage us?It's not. That's the problem.I don't want to reroll a DPS freak of the week. I didn't roll a Wizard for that reason. I ALWAYS play a Wizard and have for many years. It's what I like. All I want is to be effective at my role. Instead of the second rate citizen I am now. At least I'm not competing for DPS with Furies (oh, wait, I am if it's AoE... how screwed up is THAT?)<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

06-01-2006, 10:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dabbie wrote: Yeah, we're getting two very small aoe hate debuffs, but i don't really see how that's improving our single target dps much. Cast Lvl 70 Warlock Blackburrow SoN <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think people attribute that to the much needed fix to dark broodlings. since now you can finally cast them at range, it'll help on raid targets that you have to jouse aoes, because it gives you some more options. It's not really *increasing* your dps just more of *fixing* it Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 06-01-2006 11:27 AM

Asterra

06-02-2006, 12:12 AM

<blockquote><hr>Asterra, I have no idea what guild your in, nor have anyclue on what tier your raiding, you sure were playing the same game?... Sorry I been around along time, and to me it seems like a you really dont know what your talkin about or B your parser is broke... on a raid mob... Im talkin TRUE epics.... no warlock is goin to parse 4500 dps...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Then I had best make the suggestion that you re-read what I actually typed, or the following summary. The 4500 dps figure is for AE encounters. I talked about raid mobs already, much earlier in this thread in fact.<blockquote><hr>Taking out trash mobs on 20 second fight does not count.... <div></div><hr></blockquote>I refer to 50% of all encounters in any raid instance you'd care to name. And that most certainly does count. It sure counts if you're doing a full-raid parse, which is ultimately the parse which gauges the worth of a DPS class.<blockquote><hr>sounds like you guys should get rid of your wizard, he seems to be the bad link... maybe have him upgrade his spells... get some procing gear ect... even some aa's<div></div><hr></blockquote>You seem interested in credentials, rather like the folks in another thread I've been visiting. Suffice it to say that the content I attend to is the end game, and that I trust I have not come across as somebody whose ability to grasp reality is flawed. Insinuations about the ability of our Wizards (and of course myself; I did not fail to recognize the insult) are unavailing.

Asterra

06-02-2006, 12:20 AM

<blockquote><hr>Yeah, we're getting two very small aoe hate debuffs, but i don't really see how that's improving our single target dps much. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Not mentioned is an upgrade to the duration (and some other facet of) the Warlocks' swarm pets. The precise details are not known to me, but our Warlock seemed pleased enough about it. As for poo-pooing the hate debuffs.. stop. Our Warlock generally has to do a bit of gambling to achieve his (apparently inexplicable, to gauge the reactions here) 3000-4500 DPS. Frequently, the gamble loses. Try to tell me he's not overjoyed at what amounts to the same thing as the Conjuror's stoneskin.<blockquote><hr>if i get about to 2000dps, i start pulling aggro in the encounter. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't think I'm giving too much of a trade secret away when I suggest that the main tank's ability to hold agro is very important, and that upgrading said ability in relevant ways is a good idea. It may also be said to be a potentially good thing to have more than one tank handy.

IllusiveThoughts

06-02-2006, 01:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> if i get about to 2000dps, i start pulling aggro in the encounter. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think I'm giving too much of a trade secret away when I suggest that the main tank's ability to hold agro is very important, and that upgrading said ability in relevant ways is a good idea. It may also be said to be a potentially good thing to have more than one tank handy. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> the only way I can see a warlock going over 2k figure is on a 3+ mob raid encounter with either 1. Grouped with a troubador and a paly 2. grouped with a guardian and a paly 3. grouped with a guardian and troubador all 3 senarios woud require a dirge and coercer in the MT group for hate gainMessage Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 06-01-2006 02:27 PM

Dabbie

06-02-2006, 02:34 AM

<div></div>Dark infestation's duration is increasting to 24 seconds from 18seconds, but doesn't really increase the damage of the spell since it now takes longer between ticks (3s ticks for 18 sec duration, 4 sec ticks for 24 sec duration) and the recast was increased to 45 seconds when it used to be a 30 second spell. The broodlings are being fixed, but they've been bugged since the spell was invented... so warlocks aren't getting "better" single target dps because of this one buggy spell... and the damage the broodlings do have been nerfed too. So all in all, the spell will be less buggy, but won't be "better" as far as dps goes. In fact, warlocks are taking a pretty huge nerf with losing all our stuns. Wizards got of lightly there if you were to compare the two. Will warlock dps go up because of the changes to DI? IMO no, since the broodlings are killed in 1 aoe and won't respawn, and the recast has been lengthened on the spell. Take a look at the numbers on the hate reducers we get... hate is apparently measured by 1point of dmg=1 point of hate. While the debuffs will help, they really aren't going to help that much. If i remember right, the numbers are something like 400 every 30 seconds and 800 every 1 minute. Compare this to a healer hate debuff--of about 3.5k. It will help, yes. Is it a complete fix? No. My guild has some of the top tanks on my server. 3000k dps for a warlock is situational. I agree with what Illusive said. Cast Lvl 70 Warlock Blackburrow SoN <div></div>Message Edited by Dabbie on 06-01-2006 03:40 PM

enrique_to

06-02-2006, 03:20 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Asterra wrote:<blockquote><hr>On AE encounters Warlocks rules and on Single encounter Wizards rules, that's the fact.<hr></blockquote>No, this is patently wrong. Right now, things are precisely as I have said they are. Warlocks achieve multiples of a Wizard's DPS in AE encounters, and are neck and neck on single targets. In fact, if you're familiar with the upcoming changes to both classes, soon even the single targets will be easily won by Warlocks, for they are receiving upgrades and Wizards are scheduled to endure some significant nerfs.What?!? We have been more nerfed in LU 24 that wizards!!! That won't happen never. Just take a look at Fusion and Ice Nova and then take a look at Rift and Aphocalipse ... Please do that. There is no way a warlock can overdamage a wizard on single target encounters unless wizard have its spells at adept I and warlock have its spells at master<blockquote><hr>On RAID situation both classes are neck-and-neck cause agroo limitations. You can't employ your full DPS potential as I can't. Why? Agroo. If we try to do as much damage as we can... We'll die. It's ease no?<hr></blockquote>If you are talking about AE encounters, then it's very true that neither class can utilize their full output all of the time. With that said, good Wizards and Warlocks have a pretty good idea of how much is "too much" and they can ride that fine line to maximize DPS, and achieve the figures I have already submitted: Wizards average 1500 and Warlocks average 3000 to 4500.On single targets, both classes can chain everything in their arsenal as quickly as the spells will let them, and never get agro. If you're experiencing things differently, I can only suggest that you might want to rearrange things in your raid. In any event, with both classes chaining as many nukes as possible, it's anyone's guess as to who ends up doing the most DPS.Did you really ever raided? I did and I never try to use my full potential even in Single target encounter unless I have a Pally / Guardian and a trubador on my Group and I'll be really affrady. It's crazy. If I employ my full potential on a Single raid encounter I'll be death. Forget about that. Agroo is a real sorcerors problem. And If both of us could employ it's full damage potential, wizard will overdamage us. Just remember... Ice nova versus devastation, Fusion versus RiftOf course my point in underscoring these facts is that Wizards have no advantages over Warlocks, while Warlocks very definitely have major advantages over Wizards, and it's highly curious that the upcoming changes seem destined to worsen the problem.Uuh? Can you please tell me this major avantages of warlocks over wizards? I would really like to read them!!! I love ego burst.Wizards avantages: Evac.Single target Specialist (most games encounters)Int / Str buff. <hr></blockquote>I can't belive what I have read in this post. Please reroll an warlock. Please... Then We'll get a real laugth. If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks?

IllusiveThoughts

06-02-2006, 06:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enrique_tome wrote: If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Rofl, thats not the best way to judge a classes power. I could say after lu13 there were 3x as many warlocks as wizzies because of the way you all got boosted in the revamp, I think most of the FOTM people quit their warlocks when they realized it takes some real skill to get good dps as a warlock.

MilkToa

06-02-2006, 07:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enrique_tome wrote: If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Rofl, thats not the best way to judge a classes power. I could say after lu13 there were 3x as many warlocks as wizzies because of the way you all got boosted in the revamp, I think most of the FOTM people quit their warlocks when they realized it takes some real skill to get good dps as a warlock. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> No, most of them quit because the class was changed to an AE specialist and people didn't like the class after the change. Also, I think there's at least 3 times as many wizards as warlocks and the disparity increases every day. Message Edited by MilkToast on 06-02-2006 08:42 AM

Cecil_Stri

06-02-2006, 10:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enrique_tome wrote: If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Rofl, thats not the best way to judge a classes power. I could say after lu13 there were 3x as many warlocks as wizzies because of the way you all got boosted in the revamp, I think most of the FOTM people quit their warlocks when they realized it takes some real skill to get good dps as a warlock. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> warlocks were nerfed lu13 not buffed... As for why wizards are most popular... The whole idea of warlock just didn't appeal to me when i first started... Just seemed like a necro without a pet... i'm sure many people felt this way.

IllusiveThoughts

06-02-2006, 11:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enrique_tome wrote: If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Rofl, thats not the best way to judge a classes power. I could say after lu13 there were 3x as many warlocks as wizzies because of the way you all got boosted in the revamp, I think most of the FOTM people quit their warlocks when they realized it takes some real skill to get good dps as a warlock. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> warlocks were nerfed lu13 not buffed... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> are you sure? I could of swore LU13 is the one that boosted warlocks DD's alterd the cast /recast timers on their dd's and also upped the dmg they dealt, while still leaving the warlocks power efficiency in the same spot. gonna go and check now.... ****edit**** bah cant find the info, I'm sure it was pre dof and lu13 now. as I used to duo with a lvl 50 warlock and he would kick the living crap out of me in dps and efficiency. unfortunately I dont see him playing online any more since lu13. I cant find the exact LU since char changes aren't listed, and the warlock boards at that time are less than helpful. I do remember warlocks having shorter cast / recast timers on their DD's compared to wizard ones, and when they got the upgrades (at some LU point) their DD's were higher in dmg and lower in power cost. I remember seeing a ton of warlocks at that point.Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 06-02-2006 12:24 PM

Signal9

06-02-2006, 11:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enrique_tome wrote: If warlocks are sooo overpowered versus wizards... Why there is about two time more wizards that warlocks? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Rofl, thats not the best way to judge a classes power. I could say after lu13 there were 3x as many warlocks as wizzies because of the way you all got boosted in the revamp, I think most of the FOTM people quit their warlocks when they realized it takes some real skill to get good dps as a warlock. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> warlocks were nerfed lu13 not buffed... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> are you sure? I could of swore LU13 is the one that boosted warlocks DD's alterd the cast /recast timers on their dd's and also upped the dmg they dealt, while still leaving the warlocks power efficiency in the same spot. gonna go and check now.... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, about 4 Warlock spells got decent upgrades. And they lost all single target DD, and had them changed to AoE DD with 4+ second cast times. My Warlock never adventured after that, and is a simple kitchen wench now. Solely due to the change from being a disease based 'wizard' to being an AoE only template.

Asterra

06-03-2006, 02:03 AM

<blockquote><hr>Did you really ever raided? I did and I never try to use my full potential even in Single target encounter unless I have a Pally / Guardian and a trubador on my Group and I'll be really affrady.<hr></blockquote>I've been on some raids, yes. I think I speak from reasonable experience on this matter. I am perfectly comfortable using everything in my arsenal as quickly as possible. Granted, I have a Troubador, and I can tell the difference when I don't.<blockquote><hr>Uuh? Can you please tell me this major avantages of warlocks over wizards? I would really like to read them!!! I love ego burst.<hr></blockquote>DPS, my friend. DPS. Only a patentable fool would ever try to suggest that Warlocks achieve anything less than complete domination over Wizards when it comes to multiple-target encounters. Meanwhile, single-target DPS is so close that here we are, arguing about who can do more damage. Any time a parser is needed to really tell the difference, the DPS is close. Find me the scenario where Wizards achieve two to three times the DPS of Warlocks on single targets, and I may grudgingly concede that the two classes have similar advantages, although even then, Warlocks would win the full-raid parse with no trouble, thanks to massive AE superiority. No, indeed, Wizards cannot even manage 20% more single-target damage, all things being equal.<blockquote><hr>Int / Str buff.<hr></blockquote>Surprising that this would even be brought up. Find me a caster who isn't intelligence-capped and I will find you one who needs to buy some tier-7 treasured trash. A power buff is more direct and eminently more useful.

emagine

06-04-2006, 08:34 PM

Asterra, once again he were are... ok when you parse a raid, if you want a TRUE parse, leave out all your trash mobs... you know the mobs if a warlock gets off apocolipse or rift on the pull of the 8 heroic mobs in the way you really cant count garbade mobs as a full parse... leave the trash out and leave the named, or the ones that last a minute or more for a fight, youll find your numbers change. as you said you been on some raids I dont think that is to many....Now on the update comming, being a warlock if our broodlings didnt come out during the fight then our numbers were on the low side... but if by chance we were able to spawn then somepoint during the fight it helped our dps, because when aoe went off the would auto recast and last there duration.... now whats gonna happen is they upped our chance of spawning them by 10% i believe, yeay... but heres the kicker, they upped our recast.... and if they go suddenly trigger, and an ae goes off... and kills them, were screwed... they will not respawn and we have to wait for the timer of the spell to be up now... soooo honestly I think either our numbers will stay the same or take a lil drop... alot of these mobs have a double ae... some raid mobs have more then 2 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />now you say the str/int buff... well it all depends... being a warlock i have to use the 64 int potion to cap, and thats just barely making it... I have alot of T7 fabled, couple legendary.... but to think a person should be in t7 treasured, you were kidding right? Please tell me thats a joke and you dont raid in it.... any good caster has several sets of gear in his/her bag for resists.. but I do hit cap on a raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />asterra heres a parse of lyceum for ya.. (only encluded 1/2 the parse)conj 4635566 - dps 1,361.80 - crits 1015 nec 4065992 - dps 1,194.12 - crits 1413 conj 4031512 - dps 1,184.35 - crits 497 nec 4004341 - dps 1,176.02 - crits 1420 wiz 3548100 - dps 1,043.87 - crits 232 warl 2135500 - dps 933.35 - crits 256 assi 3068533 - dps 900.92 - crits 804 swa 2938631 - dps 863.54 - crits 613 rang 2720520 - dps 800.15 - crits 730 brig 2460916 - dps 739.68 - crits 642 bez 1758576 - dps 590.13 - crits 952 the parse is zone wide of coarse, anyways enjoy... most raiding guilds will find simular numbers<div></div>