Scout solo-ing feedback on Test

[DataOutlaw]

<DIV>Ok so I fired up a Swashbuckler on Test this morning to see how the changes to stuns affect soloing of Scout classes specifically. This is my feedbakc and I encourage other to post their experience as well but if you have not played a Scout on test or you just want to complain without giving any feedback then please post to a different thread to keep this one with usefull information for the developers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just in my limited testing on the newbie island so far it seems to me that the duration of cheap shot is fine. I was able to stun with plenty of time to run behind the MoB and hit it with two attacks before it wore off. This is perfectly acceptable to allow a solo Scout to use their positional attacks while the MoB is stunned. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does need to be adjusted (IMHO) is the recast. Right now it is a 10 second recast and that is way too long. Depending on class and level all Scout classes get at least two different rear attacks. Typically they have long recast timers so that you have to switch from one to another during a fight depending on which one is ready to go again. In order to use any of these positional attacks though you need to have the MoB stunned. Now the recast timer of cheap shot is as long as the recast timer on the positional attacks so you really only can use one of them (the one with the highest damage of course) over and over because by the time cheap shot is ready to go again so is your highest damage positional attack. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A 10 second recast on Cheap Shot is too long and has a negative affect on soloing as a Scout. There needs to be some further tweaking to this so it does not negatively affect soloing as a Scout while still preventing groups anbd raids from stun locking challenging encounters.</DIV>

[Jooneau]

You say you were able to cheap shot an NPC and hit it with your side and stealth attack, yet you complain that because of Cheap Shot's long recast, you aren't able to use both your side and stealth attack, both of which have longer recasts than Cheap Shot? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>You say you were able to cheap shot an NPC and hit it with your side and stealth attack, yet you complain that because of Cheap Shot's long recast, you aren't able to use both your side and stealth attack, both of which have longer recasts than Cheap Shot? Or am I misunderstanding you?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I take it back. I checked my live Ranger and the live recast on cheap shot is 20 seconds! So its actually better on test. Hmmmm. </P>

[Riftsburn]

I've posted about this more than once. hehI've got a 25 ranger on test, and I've done some fairly extensive testing, because I thought, with all the carrying on, that maybe I was doing something wrong, and with solo mobs, I *still* solo just as well as I did before, and can still solo yellows all day, and the occasional orange(I'm kind of a wuss, so maybe I could solo oranges, I just don't try very often).  I can still cheap shot then do my stealthy backstab, and my big backstab before the mob ever turns to face me.I really don't notice an appreciable difference *at all*. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riftsburn wrote:<BR>I've posted about this more than once. heh<BR><BR>I've got a 25 ranger on test, and I've done some fairly extensive testing, because I thought, with all the carrying on, that maybe I was doing something wrong, and with solo mobs, I *still* solo just as well as I did before, and can still solo yellows all day, and the occasional orange(I'm kind of a wuss, so maybe I could solo oranges, I just don't try very often).  I can still cheap shot then do my stealthy backstab, and my big backstab before the mob ever turns to face me.<BR><BR>I really don't notice an appreciable difference *at all*. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am taking this same position. In fact with the recast timer on cheap shot cut in half it actually increases DPS in solo play making soloing easier. I suspect most of the people screaming how it is a nerf are jsut blindly following forum rhetoric and not doing their own testing. <BR>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>As far as I can see the Cheap Shot recast is 20 seconds on both Live and Test. So check your test character again instead of typing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes its a nerf. Not against anything with 1 arrow or more, but against regular solo mobs. Why that was necesary is a question I guess you can only answer at the local pub.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Live: 6 second duration, but 2s against "harder targets"</DIV> <DIV>Test: 2+2 second duration, but last stun wont "tick" on "harder targets".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In most situations you can get behind and do whatever you did before, but the error-margin is non existant. And we all know lag doesnt happen on the internet.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Snublefot on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[LSUTigerFan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DataOutlaw wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riftsburn wrote:<BR>I've posted about this more than once. heh<BR><BR>I've got a 25 ranger on test, and I've done some fairly extensive testing, because I thought, with all the carrying on, that maybe I was doing something wrong, and with solo mobs, I *still* solo just as well as I did before, and can still solo yellows all day, and the occasional orange(I'm kind of a wuss, so maybe I could solo oranges, I just don't try very often).  I can still cheap shot then do my stealthy backstab, and my big backstab before the mob ever turns to face me.<BR><BR>I really don't notice an appreciable difference *at all*. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am taking this same position. In fact with the recast timer on cheap shot cut in half it actually increases DPS in solo play making soloing easier. I suspect most of the people screaming how it is a nerf are jsut blindly following forum rhetoric and not doing their own testing. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, it is almost the same as it is on live now, they have already put that in place.  If you look back, cheap shot was not the same as it is now on live.  And try playing a Dirge/Troub in which we are LOWER DPS then your class, and then getting our DPS cut again on certain songs and abilities.  While it may not effect you, it is certainly effecting Bards, and btw your big nerf that so many Rangers cried about, it hit us too.</P> <P>Vanell</P> <P>70 Dirge, Crushbone</P>

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LSUTigerFan wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>No, it is almost the same as it is on live now, they have already put that in place.  If you look back, cheap shot was not the same as it is now on live.  And try playing a Dirge/Troub in which we are LOWER DPS then your class, and then getting our DPS cut again on certain songs and abilities.  While it may not effect you, it is certainly effecting Bards, and btw your big nerf that so many Rangers cried about, it hit us too.</P> <P>Vanell</P> <P>70 Dirge, Crushbone</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah I was mistaken. Recast is 20 seconds on live and test. The only difference with cheap shot between live and test is that the duration is reduced from 6s to 2s. I found that 2s to be plenty sufficient to get in a flanking attack and a rear attack before the stun wore off. Anyone who wants to dispute that should try it on test for themselves. </P> <P>The old Ranger DPS "nerf" never upset me and never affected my solo ability. It was a bug with procs that they fixed and it affected a lot of classes more then just Rangers.</P> <P>I am not familiar with the Bard abilitites. What have they changed and how has it affected your ability to solo? I read something about a charm spell being nerfed down to essentially an 8 second mez. Can you comment further on that and explain how it affects solo play?</P> <P>The devs have said they do not expect the control changes to affect solo-ers and we need to hold them to that but to get something changed before it goes live we need to provide details about how a specific change affects soloing. I am of the position that the change to Cheap Shot will not affect my ability to solo. I started a test toon becasue I was concerned about it.<BR></P>

[TaleraRis]

2s or 4s? It was only supposed to be reduced to 4s according to their notes. <div></div>

[Xebed]

aye, from what ive found playing an assassin and swashy on test 4secs is sufficiant to do whatever it is you usually do (shrouded strike+shadowblade, viscerate + slice whathave you)...to be honest i never really noticed the drop in recast time...but if it's now 10 seconds over 20 the maybe the reason the stun duration was dropped was to prevent stun-locking a single solo mob by 2 scouts? (6 sec duration, 10sec refresh - 2 scouts could alternate forever) doubtful i guess...why would 2 scouts need to stunlock a solo mob? *shrug* <div></div>

[Snublefot]

<P>1) Its 20s, not 10s. 20s. 20s 20s 20s 20s. Just in case someone didnt get that.</P> <P>2) Doesnt affect solo? Well, it most certainly wont affect Heroic. As that part of the ability is <STRONG>unchanged.</STRONG> 2s stun on live and 2s stun on test.</P> <P><STRONG>The only change to this ability is to solo mobs. Excluded 1-arrow. Thats still 2s stun on live and 2s stun on test.</STRONG></P> <P>So the only change to this ability is to <STRONG>solo mobs. </STRONG>So when "devs" is rumored to say it doesnt affect solo play, what does it affect then? Why would 3 scouts want to stunlock a regular non-arrow mob? Why make the change at all when it doesnt affect anything that they are trying to accomplish? The only part changed is the <STRONG>solo part.</STRONG> As a definition it affects solo play. The heroic part is <STRONG>unchanged, </STRONG>so logic says its unaffected. </P> <P>It just doesnt make sense. Except on pvp. And we where told repeatedly that they could have seperate effect on pvp and pve. Or dont they afterall?</P>

[Sir Blig]

<P>“I am not familiar with the Bard abilities. What have they changed and how has it affected your ability to solo? I read something about a charm spell being nerfed down to essentially an 8 second mez. Can you comment further on that and explain how it affects solo play?”</P> <P>Hiya, not on test but can fill in how things work now and from reading things from the Troubs that are test and common since can say how it will affect.</P> <P>First point that needs to be made is Troubs are not that good at DPS, it can take us a long time to kill things, also at the same time Troubs are also not that good at taking damage, we generally talk high damage and it builds up fast, while things can get better if you can deck out with good gear we will be able to near how well most of the other classes do.</P> <P>Will mention stun, well on the Troub boards we don’t even talk about this change, on a scale of 1-100 on how this compares to the other changes to mez and charm it does not even score a 1, anyhow we use it in pretty well the same way as the other scouts, we have one back stab, while it will be do-able it will just mean we have to do it faster, and that the mob will be back and pounding us sooner, the bigger side effect at least for my playing style is I often use this to buy myself some time to mez a target without taking too much damage. </P> <P>Around Mez, </P> <P>our Mez was 40 or 50 sec duration with a 10 sec recast, </P> <P>Around solo: this was used to get breathing time and recover hp and power, with taking lots of damage (and o yea we use a fair amount of power) we would very quickly be in the red, while what we were fighting is still in green(HP), we would then mez the target and sit and wait, re-mezzing every 30 or so sec until our small heal buff and mana buff re-charge us to full, we would then repeat the process, climb into the mob – mez when near red – re-mez till healed – back to climb in, various classes have various feelings about this, some think it allowed us to take out mobs that we should not have. But it needs to be noted that there are two affects of this, 1) combat takes ages it can take us 10-20 or even more to take out mobs. 2) RESISTS, very nasty should a mez get resisted we have 10 secs of pain before we can try again, if a re-mez gets resisted we just have to hope we will still have enough time to try again before the pounding starts. Mez was also massively useful should we end up with any adds for the same reason’s.</P> <P>Around groups: things change quite a bit, the damage problem goes out the window, here mez is used in two ways, control adds or to help the odds the group faces, to varying degree, in theory with 10 sec recast we can mez 3 or 4 creatures, however this has side effects as well, <BR>1st side affect the moment we have to mez 2 or more our dps goes to ZERO, we will be so busy maintaining it that we cant do anything else. <BR>2nd and a real problem, heroics resist far more than most solo mobs, this results in making it hard to keep even one mob mezed.<BR>3rd PAIN, AGRO MAGNET, mobs this spell affect are pretty well guarantied to try and destroy the troub, without some fairly quick rescuing from the tank or another there will be a dead troub. <BR>4th ANY damage will break mez!! Where this is a royal pain is DoT’s and a group of mobs that is actively being fought, as long as the mob is taking damage the mez will land and pretty well instantly break with the next tick or damage, once a DoT or if DoTs are being used we can pretty well forget using mez unless we are very lucky, if we are lucky to land it at the right time, the mez itself will prevent any AE damage but most of the time try as I might there is no way.</P> <P>With the changes to Mez:<BR>Duration 20 sec re-case 20 sec,</P> <P>Solo: less than half the down time to recover HP/mana, any resists WILL result in twice as much bashing, there will be no way to keep a mob mezed long enough to make HP/mana regen make the difference. </P> <P>Group: same problem, not even one mob out the fight, pretty well no DPS, one resist and we will have an agro bomb on our hands.</P> <P>The Thoughts are this will be of limited use and may even be more of a fiddle than it is worth and be far less usefull, my thoughts are it will about 1 tenth of what it used to be.</P> <P>Around Charm: ouch</P> <P>Duration 4min for lvl 50 and 7min 40 sec for the highest level charm, 20 sec recast, can control only 1 creature and we have NO control over it repeat NO control</P> <P>SOLO. Is nice if a group of mobs happens to be pulled or if an add happens along,<BR>As far as I can figure the default behavior is protect self, once charm has landed the mob will run to your side and just stand there, only if the mob takes damage will it engage, once engages it will fight away and generally seems to attack the targets you are attacking. This can make for a nice addition to our DPS with some troubs using it a lot</P> <P>Problems: <BR>1) depending on the mob charm can break realy quickly (when pulling with charm I normally find it will break just before to just after it gets to you or shortly after)<BR>2) with it attacking your targets if we are trying to land a mez we have to cast and quick change to another target in the hopes that it does not break the mez.<BR>3) Minor one, evac/zoning breaks charm so the charmed mob is limited to the land mass you are in/on </P> <P>With the resistances, some mobs have very high while a small number have very low, the best I ever found was the raptors in sinking sands, they were as dumb as you get and I don’t think any of my charms ever broke on them and they for some reason are agro mad and attack as soon as you start cambat, very nice!! I have heard there is also a nice mob to charm somewhere in bonemir </P> <P>GROUPS: I hardly use it, again it is only one mob, gets resisted/breaks far more often, has the same No control and defend self rules, </P> <P>Problems: <BR>1) AGRO Bomb, once free the troub will be the first it hunts, and what usually makes things worse is it is normally standing right next to you so the first thing the troub knows is that all hell has broken lose right next to him.<BR>2) This is also a bit of a problem with Mez, if people don’t see or don’t realize they will still consider it an enemy and try to attack it and it can take time for them to realize. (funny for the troub but not for the tank when they are taunting a mezed or charmed mob and nothing happens)<BR>3) If charm holds, letting go of it and having the tank pull it off you is always fun.</P> <P>With the changes to charm:<BR>Duration 8 sec, recast 60 sec</P> <P>Solo: as good as useless, what good is 8 sec? not the same and cannot be compared to mez, with a mezed mob we can cloak and move behind it and use our cloaked back stab, with charm it is classed a friend so cant be attacked and the second charm ends BOOM the assault starts</P> <P>Group: same problems as solo with one extra, hold the charm  in one hand pull the pin, 8sec later you will have a heroic mob wanting to skin you again thanks to the guarantied agro.</P> <P><BR>Final section:</P> <P>DUAL/PVL</P> <P>Were we used to do ok thanks to the rest we could get from mez we will not stand a chance.</P> <P>I have done a good few Duals and prob the funniest is going up against a swashy<BR>Open with stun and then mez, before mez has landed within a few secs I would most likely be under 10% health, deep in the red, I then sit, mez, sit, Mez… till my health is back to full, (this takes a few minutes) I then cloak, cloak backstab, stun, backstab, mez, even with the stuns and surprise they would have got be back into the red, I then sit, mez, sit, Mez… till my health is back to full, …….</P> <P>If I win it will be because I frustrated my opponent to death, many I don’t win simply because 1 or two resists on the mez and poof one dead troub,</P> <P>I would recommend trying a troub, or if you have a troub friend or can find, ask him for a few friendly duals and see how he does and what strategy he uses.</P> <P>And read the troub pages, lots of toubs are saying what they think on the changes, and the troub board is normally one of the quietest.</P> <P>(hope it helps)</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR> <P>1) Its 20s, not 10s. 20s. 20s 20s 20s 20s. Just in case someone didnt get that.</P> <P>2) Doesnt affect solo? Well, it most certainly wont affect Heroic. As that part of the ability is <STRONG>unchanged.</STRONG> 2s stun on live and 2s stun on test.</P> <P><STRONG>The only change to this ability is to solo mobs. Excluded 1-arrow. Thats still 2s stun on live and 2s stun on test.</STRONG></P> <P>So the only change to this ability is to <STRONG>solo mobs. </STRONG>So when "devs" is rumored to say it doesnt affect solo play, what does it affect then? Why would 3 scouts want to stunlock a regular non-arrow mob? Why make the change at all when it doesnt affect anything that they are trying to accomplish? The only part changed is the <STRONG>solo part.</STRONG> As a definition it affects solo play. The heroic part is <STRONG>unchanged, </STRONG>so logic says its unaffected. </P> <P>It just doesnt make sense. Except on pvp. And we where told repeatedly that they could have seperate effect on pvp and pve. Or dont they afterall?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Although I haven't seen anyone SAY it, I would guess they are trying to make regular solo mobs a bit more challenging without pumping up HP or otherwise buffing the mob, which might break some classes for soloing. This way, solo (no arrow, specifically) targets become a bit more challenging, as opposed to the cake that they are now for so many classes. Thus, the classes that use long duration stuns to lock the mob are more affected (mainly scouts and maybe tanks), while those that generally do not (pet classes and root/nukers, for example) are less affected (and are balanced through other methods like the slight nerfing of summoner tank pets, and similar changes).</P> <P>It just seems to me that they are trying to un-trivialize the no-arrow content, mainly for soloers since groups are generally after heroics anyway. That might explain why in some instances the effects on heroics are not changing, or not changing as much.</P> <P>Just a guess, of course.</P>

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>GPA_Shipwreck wrote:</P> <P><BR>Although I haven't seen anyone SAY it, I would guess they are trying to make regular solo mobs a bit more challenging without pumping up HP or otherwise buffing the mob, which might break some classes for soloing. This way, solo (no arrow, specifically) targets become a bit more challenging, as opposed to the cake that they are now for so many classes. Thus, the classes that use long duration stuns to lock the mob are more affected (mainly scouts and maybe tanks), while those that generally do not (pet classes and root/nukers, for example) are less affected (and are balanced through other methods like the slight nerfing of summoner tank pets, and similar changes).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem here in regards to rangers specifically and why some of us are so up in arms is that they recently had to buff up damage on our CAs and give us a root on our lunge line, after realizing that the changes in LU20 had seriously hindered our damage output and our capabilities soloing and in groups.</P> <P>Now we're having 3 either completely solo CAs (since the Cheap Shot change is only affecting solo, no arrow and down mobs) or mostly solo (PBS is already a very short duration, and most rangers I've seen who have Thorny Trap say they rarely use it in groups) so now the changes that recently had to be made to increase our effectiveness are basically being nullified, at least in regards to soloing rangers.</P> <P>That's why I don't see the reason for it. These abilities, especially Cheap Shot, aren't used in a group situation to contribute to stun locking, and now we're being reduced in effectiveness when we were just increased to be where we were supposed to be.<BR></P>

[Tandellia]

<DIV>I tried out a troubador on Test server to see the difference between my troubador in Live and in Test. The 2 second Cheap Shot is crazy for bards since we can barely get behind the mob to backstab before it snaps out of stun. I have not gotten high enough on Test to see the changes on the charm abilities as of yet.</DIV>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>GPA_Shipwreck wrote:</P> <P><BR>Although I haven't seen anyone SAY it, I would guess they are trying to make regular solo mobs a bit more challenging without pumping up HP or otherwise buffing the mob, which might break some classes for soloing. This way, solo (no arrow, specifically) targets become a bit more challenging, as opposed to the cake that they are now for so many classes. Thus, the classes that use long duration stuns to lock the mob are more affected (mainly scouts and maybe tanks), while those that generally do not (pet classes and root/nukers, for example) are less affected (and are balanced through other methods like the slight nerfing of summoner tank pets, and similar changes).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem here in regards to rangers specifically and why some of us are so up in arms is that they recently had to buff up damage on our CAs and give us a root on our lunge line, after realizing that the changes in LU20 had seriously hindered our damage output and our capabilities soloing and in groups.</P> <P>Now we're having 3 either completely solo CAs (since the Cheap Shot change is only affecting solo, no arrow and down mobs) or mostly solo (PBS is already a very short duration, and most rangers I've seen who have Thorny Trap say they rarely use it in groups) so now the changes that recently had to be made to increase our effectiveness are basically being nullified, at least in regards to soloing rangers.</P> <P>That's why I don't see the reason for it. These abilities, especially Cheap Shot, aren't used in a group situation to contribute to stun locking, and now we're being reduced in effectiveness when we were just increased to be where we were supposed to be.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Believe me, I am not trying to excuse anything, I am just fumbling for an explanation.....

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Tandellia wrote:<DIV>I tried out a troubador on Test server to see the difference between my troubador in Live and in Test. The 2 second Cheap Shot is crazy for bards since we can barely get behind the mob to backstab before it snaps out of stun. I have not gotten high enough on Test to see the changes on the charm abilities as of yet.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Use your stealth attack instead. You don't have to be behind the NPC to use it, just in stealth. Here's the combo to do it:Cheap Shot, (queue) Shroud, (queue) stealth attackThat works reliably enough. If you have a fast system with no net lag, you could position yourself for a side attack too while shrouding.Cheap Shot, (queue) Shroud and move to side or back while shrouding, (queue) stealth attack, (queue) side attackYou can move while using your combat arts, and you can queue your next combat art while one is in mid-action. Also, if you have combat auto-face on, you can let it turn you while you're shrouding since that turns off autoattack and turning autoattack back on with the stealth attack will face you properly for the attack.I leveled up a Troubadour to 20 on Test, tried out the new charm, got totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing disgusted with it, and deleted the character. I had intended to level up to 50 to see the mez nerf too, but the charm nerf one-shotted my enjoyment of the Troubadour class.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[CBRad9]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Although I haven't seen anyone SAY it, I would guess they are trying to make regular solo mobs a bit more challenging without pumping up HP or otherwise buffing the mob, which might break some classes for soloing. This way, solo (no arrow, specifically) targets become a bit more challenging, as opposed to the cake that they are now for so many classes. Thus, the classes that use long duration stuns to lock the mob are more affected (mainly scouts and maybe tanks), while those that generally do not (pet classes and root/nukers, for example) are less affected (and are balanced through other methods like the slight nerfing of summoner tank pets, and similar changes).</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It just seems to me that they are trying to un-trivialize the no-arrow content, mainly for soloers since groups are generally after heroics anyway. That might explain why in some instances the effects on heroics are not changing, or not changing as much.</P> <P>Just a guess, of course.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know that you said that you were just fumbling for an answer, but I also wanted to add:</P> <P>There are classes that currently have a hard time soloing blue single arrow mobs (Insert Troubadour here).</P> <P>By making the solo mobs more challenging without adjusting classes that have a hard time with solos is effectively breaking the class.</P>

[Snublefot]

<DIV>Your strategy wont work on 1-arrow and higher. Shroud is 2s cast. Recovery on Cheap Shot is 0.5s. Cast on sneak attack is 0.5s. Add in whatever lag you have and it will be pretty close even on regular solo mobs that get the 4s stun. </DIV>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CBRad929 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Although I haven't seen anyone SAY it, I would guess they are trying to make regular solo mobs a bit more challenging without pumping up HP or otherwise buffing the mob, which might break some classes for soloing. This way, solo (no arrow, specifically) targets become a bit more challenging, as opposed to the cake that they are now for so many classes. Thus, the classes that use long duration stuns to lock the mob are more affected (mainly scouts and maybe tanks), while those that generally do not (pet classes and root/nukers, for example) are less affected (and are balanced through other methods like the slight nerfing of summoner tank pets, and similar changes).</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It just seems to me that they are trying to un-trivialize the no-arrow content, mainly for soloers since groups are generally after heroics anyway. That might explain why in some instances the effects on heroics are not changing, or not changing as much.</P> <P>Just a guess, of course.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know that you said that you were just fumbling for an answer, but I also wanted to add:</P> <P>There are classes that currently have a hard time soloing blue single arrow mobs (Insert Troubadour here).</P> <P>By making the solo mobs more challenging without adjusting classes that have a hard time with solos is effectively breaking the class.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My Dirge can't effectively solo blue ^ mobs either, but he can solo blue and white no arrow mobs quite well. But I accept the fact that my Dirge is a weakish solo class. I have known since I rolled him that this was so. My Inquisitor is much worse. Since the stun nerf is being universally applied, I can't really gripe too much about it.</P> <P>And I freely admit that since I don't play a Troub, I can't speak for them. My honest question to you is, can you solo blue and white no arrow mobs? If so, you are probably approximately where SOE wants you, for good or ill. The fact that other classes can solo ^^^ mobs doesn't necessarily mean you are broken. In fact, it seems clear that SOE considers THEM broken.</P>

[DataOutlaw]

<P>Hmmm I was just looking at the spell description that now says Cheap Shot is a 2s cast. I did not know there was a difference in spell effect if the MoB was a regular, 1-up, or down arrow con. Of course the spell description also notes the lower duration and stun immunity granted to Epic MoBs and then says it does not affect Epic targets at all. It seems I need to do some additional testing to verify the 2s / 4s thing. I just got off newbie island this morning so I will spend the weekend playing around in Antonica to see what I can discover.</P> <P>I still can't speak to the troubador issue though. I never played one. I did not realize they had a 30s mez with 25s recast. While it seems a little overpowered to me if what people are saying is true and that is the only ability that allows a troub to have any solo ability at all then it would seem to be a pretty big nerf. Perhaps some other troub abilities can be enhanced to make up for it much like Lunge was changed to a root for Rangers to increase their solo abilities. I never expected that change and I don't think I ever saw a player suggest it but it sure did make Solo play a lot better for Rangers where previously I was only able to use one or two CAs when I pulled and after that put my bow away until the encounter was dead or had killed me. Maybe something similar can be done for troubadoors to bring their ability to solo back in line with other classes.</P>

[TaleraRis]

2s cast with a 4s duration?

[DataOutlaw]

<P>Ok somtimes I jsut suck at typing. Here is a screenshot from Test taken by my lvl7 Swachbuckler today (05/25/2006)</P> <P><IMG src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/095/454.JPG"></P> <P>It is a 2s duration. Still a 0.2s cast with a 20s recovery</P><p>Message Edited by DataOutlaw on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Ok somtimes I jsut suck at typing. Here is a screenshot from Test taken by my lvl7 Swachbuckler today (05/25/2006)</p> <p><img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/095/454.JPG"></p> <p>It is a 2s duration. Still a 0.2s cast with a 20s recovery</p><p>Message Edited by DataOutlaw on <span class="date_text">05-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:47 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Correct, and the "Applies Cheap Shot on termination.." doesn't hit ^ solo mobs and higher.  That's the extra 2 seconds, making 4 seconds.  Used to be 4 seconds, making 6 total.</div>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DataOutlaw wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok so I fired up a Swashbuckler on Test this morning to see how the changes to stuns affect soloing of Scout classes specifically. This is my feedbakc and I encourage other to post their experience as well but if you have not played a Scout on test or you just want to complain without giving any feedback then please post to a different thread to keep this one with usefull information for the developers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just in my limited testing on the newbie island so far it seems to me that the duration of cheap shot is fine. I was able to stun with plenty of time to run behind the MoB and hit it with two attacks before it wore off. This is perfectly acceptable to allow a solo Scout to use their positional attacks while the MoB is stunned. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does need to be adjusted (IMHO) is the recast. Right now it is a 10 second recast and that is way too long. Depending on class and level all Scout classes get at least two different rear attacks. Typically they have long recast timers so that you have to switch from one to another during a fight depending on which one is ready to go again. In order to use any of these positional attacks though you need to have the MoB stunned. Now the recast timer of cheap shot is as long as the recast timer on the positional attacks so you really only can use one of them (the one with the highest damage of course) over and over because by the time cheap shot is ready to go again so is your highest damage positional attack. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A 10 second recast on Cheap Shot is too long and has a negative affect on soloing as a Scout. There needs to be some further tweaking to this so it does not negatively affect soloing as a Scout while still preventing groups anbd raids from stun locking challenging encounters.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The only thing i can add to this is that reducing the recast timer on Cheap Shot, while not overpowering to all scout classes, would boost Rangers and Assassins a bunch (almost too much IMHO). Currently, using that skill once allows us to effectively trash a good amount of a mobs HPs, even with the reduced timer. Allowing it to be used more often gives a decisive boost to assassin/ranger DPS, beyond what could've been achieved by the current version of the spell. Granted, i havent tested this on test, but i would imagine it would be overpowering to a few of the scout classes. Not against your propsal, but i'm a little undecided.

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR> <BR>The only thing i can add to this is that reducing the recast timer on Cheap Shot, while not overpowering to all scout classes, would boost Rangers and Assassins a bunch (almost too much IMHO). Currently, using that skill once allows us to effectively trash a good amount of a mobs HPs, even with the reduced timer. Allowing it to be used more often gives a decisive boost to assassin/ranger DPS, beyond what could've been achieved by the current version of the spell. Granted, i havent tested this on test, but i would imagine it would be overpowering to a few of the scout classes. Not against your propsal, but i'm a little undecided.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There is no boost to the recast timer on Cheap Shot. It is still 20s just like on live. That was my goof up. I posted the screenshot of Cheap Shot to prevent any other "translation errors" made by my typing. The only change is that the duration of the stun went from 6s to either 2s or 4s depending on what you are fighting. In my testing so far it has always been a 4s stun. I will test it on 1-up non-heroic MoBs with only a 2s stun this weekend for sure to see if they become un soloable or not.<BR>

[TaleraRis]

Is it guaranteed 4s on solo mobs, or can that second stun be resisted? <div></div>

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>Is it guaranteed 4s on solo mobs, or can that second stun be resisted?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats a darned good question. In my testing this weekend I will pay very close attention to see if the followup 2s stun is ever resisted or not. I would guess it is supposed to be guaranteed 4s stun to solo MoBs.

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:Is it guaranteed 4s on solo mobs, or can that second stun be resisted?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats a darned good question. In my testing this weekend I will pay very close attention to see if the followup 2s stun is ever resisted or not. I would guess it is supposed to be guaranteed 4s stun to solo MoBs.<hr></blockquote>Hopefully. It concerns me that they changed the setup as much as they did. On Live right now, it lists a 6 second duration and says that on tougher opponents, the duration is less. Now they're completely splitting the stun up into two parts. Makes me wonder if we're only getting 2s of unresistible stun, and then the other 2s is up for grabs on if the mob resists or not.<div></div>

[S]

<DIV>I didn't take the time to read the rest of the posts, so let me appologize for that, it's something I usually don't do if I'm going to post.</DIV> <DIV>I too have tested 3 different scout class, 1 from each scout line (Rogue - Brigand, Bard - Dirge, Predator - Ranger), and though I could barely pull off 2 attacks (on occasion 3) with the 6 second stun, I've managed to speed up my button presses and I am consistently getting off 2 attacks within the new 4 second duration, but never more. So it's not that great of a hit to soloing as many of the other changes. I can still take on yellows, and the occasional orange using one of my Sinister Strike Master I's, but my other classes aren't fairing so well with the other changes in LU24.</DIV> <DIV>My Guardian is having some trouble due to his short duration stun, believe it or not. I really didn't expect to see a difference, but fighting yellows now feels quite a bit more dangerous, and astonishingly not as "easy" it is with the Scouts I tested. And by far, the roots are the worst change I've personally tested so far. Roots still seem to break a lot more often than what the spell claims is the percentage of chance to break, and not being able to keep an enemy rooted (in best case scenario) is extremely dangerous, even against solo enemies (particularly white and yellow cons). I could stand to have the enemy unrooted and attacking me perhaps two times in a given battle, but as it is, it's occuring a lot more and I find myself routed and running from battle far more often than before. In fact, I was so shaken by my experience against these solo mobs, I didn't dare try to fight any heroics. And there may be those that say heroics shouldn't be soloable, but if a heroic is low green to me, then I think I should be able to solo it, if just barely. I've only been able to take out one ^^^heroic completely by myself, and he was low green to me, and I was using a Templar with 2 Master I healing spells. I was able to finish him off just as I ran out of power, so it was definately a struggle. So when I hear about people taking out even conned ^^^heroics, I think to myself "wow, they must have amazing gear and spells/abilities to pull that off."</DIV> <DIV>But anyway, I think the roots were needlessly nerfed. Keeping mobs rooted is essential to a mage's (particularly sorcerors) survival, it's not a "cheap" or "trivializing" tactic, it's a necessary one.</DIV> <DIV>But this is just the tip of the iceberg. I think most of the other nerfs were excessive (poor troubadors) and weren't warranted, even with the excuse SOE gave. If they were concerned about perm-stunning, then the solution is simple, make it so stunned enemies become immune to other stuns during an existing stun and for a short duration afterwards. See how simple that was? They didn't need to beat everything to a bloody pulp with the nerf stick, granted, some changes weren't that bad (like the cheap shot nerf as discussed here), but they still weren't necessary.</DIV>

[DataOutlaw]

<P>I did extensive testing this week as I levelled a swashsbuckler to lvl17, did the new betrayal quest, and tested the new craftsman and provisioner recipes.</P> <P>Anyway I was able to solo green heroic 3-up MoBs and if cheap shot was reduced to only a 2s stun it was still sufficient, if I teimed it just right, to get off a flanking attack and a rear attack. The trick is to leave combat auto-face enabled, mash cheap shot, and run straight forward through the MoB mashine the flanking attack and queuing the rear facing attack. Its not easy but it works and if you think about it it shouldn;t be easy to take down a 3-up heroic target even if it is green! I was also able to solo blue heroic (no arrow) MoBs as well without too much trouble. I even managed to take down the heroics using really crappy gear with just crafted tin chainmail. </P> <P>I am sticking to my opinion that the change to cheap shot will not affect solo ability.</P>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div> <p>I did extensive testing this week as I levelled a swashsbuckler to lvl17, did the new betrayal quest, and tested the new craftsman and provisioner recipes.</p> <p>Anyway I was able to solo green heroic 3-up MoBs and if cheap shot was reduced to only a 2s stun it was still sufficient, if I teimed it just right, to get off a flanking attack and a rear attack. The trick is to leave combat auto-face enabled, mash cheap shot, and run straight forward through the MoB mashine the flanking attack and queuing the rear facing attack. Its not easy but it works and if you think about it it shouldn;t be easy to take down a 3-up heroic target even if it is green! I was also able to solo blue heroic (no arrow) MoBs as well without too much trouble. I even managed to take down the heroics using really crappy gear with just crafted tin chainmail. </p> <p>I am sticking to my opinion that the change to cheap shot will not affect solo ability.</p><hr></blockquote>The time was not reduced versus heroic encounters.  Doability is not the issue, but that the stun was only reduced vs. solo encounters when group control was the reason given for the change.</div>

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The time was not reduced versus heroic encounters.  Doability is not the issue, but that the stun was only reduced vs. solo encounters when group control was the reason given for the change.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Did you see the screenie of the description of cheap shot I posted. According to that the stun shoudl be 4s for "weak" opponents 2s for everything else. I can't imagine a 3-up heroic being considered a "weak" opponent. I did not get a chance to test 1-up solo MoBs yet but will get to that as soon as I can. Any suggestions on where a lvl17 can go to find a 1-up solo MoB? So far I have not had ny trouble with any solo MoB.<BR>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Bassist wrote: <div> <blockquote>The time was not reduced versus heroic encounters.  Doability is not the issue, but that the stun was only reduced vs. solo encounters when group control was the reason given for the change.</blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote>Did you see the screenie of the description of cheap shot I posted. According to that the stun shoudl be 4s for "weak" opponents 2s for everything else. I can't imagine a 3-up heroic being considered a "weak" opponent. I did not get a chance to test 1-up solo MoBs yet but will get to that as soon as I can. Any suggestions on where a lvl17 can go to find a 1-up solo MoB? So far I have not had ny trouble with any solo MoB.<hr></blockquote>I play on test as well as live, so I have a troub with cheap shot and know the difference.  A troub cannot take on a green ^^^ heroic due to mezz changes, so it only makes a difference to soloability.  That's what my point is.  It doesn't affect people who could take on heroics, only people who can't.  It's class discrimination <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yes, I'm being specific, but I'm afraid if you try it with just one class then you can't be generic.  The test on heroics can be done on live.  I'm afraid I don't know FP area at all, and so can't help you find the ^ solo.Basically, it reduces the speed with which some classes can take down a solo encounter while going for a heroic encounter, but makes it harder for the classes who have trouble taking down a solo encounter to begin with.</div>

[DataOutlaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I play on test as well as live, so I have a troub with cheap shot and know the difference.  A troub cannot take on a green ^^^ heroic due to mezz changes, so it only makes a difference to soloability.  That's what my point is.  It doesn't affect people who could take on heroics, only people who can't.  It's class discrimination <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yes, I'm being specific, but I'm afraid if you try it with just one class then you can't be generic.  The test on heroics can be done on live.  I'm afraid I don't know FP area at all, and so can't help you find the ^ solo.<BR><BR>Basically, it reduces the speed with which some classes can take down a solo encounter while going for a heroic encounter, but makes it harder for the classes who have trouble taking down a solo encounter to begin with.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am focussing only on the change to cheap shot. The larger issues facing troubadoors are being addressed by the developers according to this post:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8617#M8617" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8617#M8617</A></P> <P>I jsut completed the Exile quest havoing started my swashbuckler in Qeynos so I am looking for a 1-up solo MoB to test anywhere in Antonica, Commonlands, or anywhere inthe general vicinity where I can find a 1-up solo Mob appropriate for a level 17 to tackle. I want to see if they count as "weak" or not.<BR></P>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Bassist wrote: <div> <blockquote>I play on test as well as live, so I have a troub with cheap shot and know the difference.  A troub cannot take on a green ^^^ heroic due to mezz changes, so it only makes a difference to soloability.  That's what my point is.  It doesn't affect people who could take on heroics, only people who can't.  It's class discrimination <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yes, I'm being specific, but I'm afraid if you try it with just one class then you can't be generic.  The test on heroics can be done on live.  I'm afraid I don't know FP area at all, and so can't help you find the ^ solo.Basically, it reduces the speed with which some classes can take down a solo encounter while going for a heroic encounter, but makes it harder for the classes who have trouble taking down a solo encounter to begin with.</blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I am focussing only on the change to cheap shot. The larger issues facing troubadoors are being addressed by the developers according to this post:</p> <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8617#M8617" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=8617#M8617</a></p> <p>I jsut completed the Exile quest havoing started my swashbuckler in Qeynos so I am looking for a 1-up solo MoB to test anywhere in Antonica, Commonlands, or anywhere inthe general vicinity where I can find a 1-up solo Mob appropriate for a level 17 to tackle. I want to see if they count as "weak" or not.</p><hr></blockquote>I understand what you're trying to do, and I applaud it.  I'm saying that your premise of it not affecting solo play is incorrect as a global statement <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />For one-ups go to the windstalker area in Antonica and find some bears.  There should be white and yellow to a 17.  I don't know if some are blue.</div>

[Bassist]

So, I was wrong about windstalker.  If I find some, I'll let you know.<div></div>

[Bassist]

Stormhold, the first mobs you come to.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<blockquote><hr>DataOutlaw wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Bassist wrote: <div> <blockquote>The time was not reduced versus heroic encounters.  Doability is not the issue, but that the stun was only reduced vs. solo encounters when group control was the reason given for the change.</blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote>Did you see the screenie of the description of cheap shot I posted. According to that the stun shoudl be 4s for "weak" opponents 2s for everything else. I can't imagine a 3-up heroic being considered a "weak" opponent. I did not get a chance to test 1-up solo MoBs yet but will get to that as soon as I can. Any suggestions on where a lvl17 can go to find a 1-up solo MoB? So far I have not had ny trouble with any solo MoB.<hr></blockquote>I'm not sure what you're saying here. It's been 2s on anything with an up arrow for a while now. So posting how it is on anything with an up arrow doesn't tell us how it has changed in relation to what was reduced, the 6s on no arrow and down arrow mobs being reduced to 4s.<div></div>

[Worrick]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>Is it guaranteed 4s on solo mobs, or can that second stun be resisted?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Creatures can not resist a termination effect. Once the spell hits, the termination efect is garunteed to hit when the spell terminates unless the target is fully immune. In that case they still don't get a resist check it just doesn't effect the.</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Then why split it? Why not just give it a full 4 seconds on weaker opponents? That's why I'm concerned there may be a resist involved in it now.</DIV>

[DataOutlaw]

It has already been posted in this thread but I want to confirm it. 1-up arrow solo MoBs do indeed qualify for the additional reduction in the stun duration of cheap shot. As tested on the entry MoBs in Stormhold which were green to me the stun is only 2s. This makes it challenging to get in a flanking and rear attack before the stun wears off but not impossible.