Stun Lock and you

[CBRad9]

<DIV>My understanding of the major combat changes in LU24 that people are upset about deal with Stun lock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In particular, the reasoning behind the changes are because in some situations a group has the ability to stun lock a mob to prevent it from attacking back, thus making the mob inconsequential.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Brannoc</SPAN> -- *Pashta* With the upcoming Live Update 24 root and stun "nerfing", many of us caster want to know if you are intentionally trying to force grouping or is there some other reason for this move?<BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- Many players tend to look at one aspect of a large change, such as the control changes on Test now, and just grab hold of the aspects they feel are negative (such as the lowered durations).<BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- In reality, they should end up even more useful in certain situations, <FONT size=5><FONT color=#ff0099><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>yet you won't be able to to chain stun mobs anymore and completely incapacitate them in order to complete an encounter with impunity.</FONT></STRONG> </FONT></FONT><BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- Short summary: You should still be able to solo quite well, but you may not be able to take one or two players and keep them completely incapacitated, allowing you to own a mob that is technically harder than you should be fighting. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0><BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- (done)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My problem with this resolution is that although it fixes these <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>specific group situations</STRONG></FONT>, but in return it also breaks classes that try to solo within their range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my humble opinion, a more graceful solution to this problem would be to have a stun timer to prevent overlappingconsecutive stuns.  ie once stunned, a mob cannot be stunned for x seconds after the stun expires, where X decreases based upon the difficutly of the mob.  To keep from having overlapping stuns, if a mob is stunned any subsequent stun will have no effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way, players can rely on their core functionality not changing (*Troubadours) and the devs fix an issue where a problem occured in specific situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is my belief that there are too many ramifications of the proposed combat changes that would negitively affect general gameplay to allow LU24 to move forward in its present condition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Clarification</DIV><p>Message Edited by CBRad929 on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:26 PM</span>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CBRad929 wrote:<BR> <DIV>My understanding of the major combat changes in LU24 that people are upset about deal with Stun lock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In particular, the reasoning behind the changes are because in some situations a group has the ability to stun lock a mob to prevent it from attacking back, thus making the mob inconsequential.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Brannoc</SPAN> -- *Pashta* With the upcoming Live Update 24 root and stun "nerfing", many of us caster want to know if you are intentionally trying to force grouping or is there some other reason for this move?<BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- Many players tend to look at one aspect of a large change, such as the control changes on Test now, and just grab hold of the aspects they feel are negative (such as the lowered durations).<BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- In reality, they should end up even more useful in certain situations, <FONT size=5><FONT color=#ff0099><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>yet you won't be able to to chain stun mobs anymore and completely incapacitate them in order to complete an encounter with impunity.</FONT></STRONG> </FONT></FONT><BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- Short summary: You should still be able to solo quite well, but you may not be able to take one or two players and keep them completely incapacitated, allowing you to own a mob that is technically harder than you should be fighting. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0><BR><SPAN>Blackguard</SPAN> -- (done)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My problem with this resolution is that although it fixes these <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>specific group situations</STRONG></FONT>, but in return it also breaks classes that try to solo within their range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>In my humble opinion, a more graceful solution to this problem would be to have a stun timer to prevent overlappingconsecutive stuns.  ie once stunned, a mob cannot be stunned for x seconds after the stun expires, where X decreases based upon the difficutly of the mob.  To keep from having overlapping stuns, if a mob is stunned any subsequent stun will have no effect.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way, players can rely on their core functionality not changing (*Troubadours) and the devs fix an issue where a problem occured in specific situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is my belief that there are too many ramifications of the proposed combat changes that would negitively affect general gameplay to allow LU24 to move forward in its present condition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Clarification</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CBRad929 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:26 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's a logical and well thought out idea. If all devs had logical thoughts this game might not be getting screwed up every 6 months or so.<BR>

[MrWolfie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CBRad929 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is my belief that there are too many ramifications of the proposed combat changes that would negitively affect general gameplay to allow LU24 to move forward in its present condition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I totally agree on this point.</P> <P>I'm afraid I have to harp on again about my duo (69 Necro/Warlock) again, but when tackling challenging heroic encounters (blue ^^^ to be precise, we don't engage heroic mobs above our own level) we need to stun lock the mob toward the end of the fight because our tank (M1 Necro Tank pet) has no mitigation.</P> <P>The removal of (what I consider to be) valid tactics will destroy our gameplay.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let's look at the facts:</P> <UL> <LI>Our tank has little avoidance and no mitigation ~ it can only survive for a very short period against heroic mobs, even those several levels below our level.</LI> <LI>As DPS, I need to damage the mob as hard and fast as possible so that the pet survives the fight.</LI></UL> <P>If I go too slow, without stuns (let's not forget that my stuns have been reduced AND one removed completely) the pet dies.</P> <P>If I overdo it, which I always do :smileywink:, I'll get aggro. Trust me, I survive heroic hits less than the pet. The stun at the end of Devastation (which has been removed on Test) is essential to stopping the mob aggroing on me, especially as Null Absolution usually lands just as that stun is about to. My stuns keep the pet alive AND stop the mob from beating me to a pulp, should the pet lose aggro. </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In conclusion, without turning the necro pet into a valid replacement for a PC tank, the removal and reduction of my stuns completely ruins the gameplay of this duo vs. heroic encounters.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I suggest some developers take a duo of level 66/67 Warlock and Necro and go adventuring together on Test ~ they can be equipped with all adept III and a M1 tank pet, as we are ~ and see how far they get without those stuns. I'd especially like them to go into SoS ~ I only wish I could be there to see the trouble they get themselves in.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P align=right>DUO FTW</P> <P align=right> </P><p>Message Edited by MrWolfie on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 AM</span>

[enc]

so basically you're saying you,  a necro, should be able to tank an heroic mob for a duo group. Sorry but i'm not sure the game should revolve around a necro (his pet) being able to tank heroic mobs for a duo group.

[saotome0]

<DIV>No, what he is saying is, every single person who whined about conjurers and necros being over powered used the excuse that we had our pets, so we did too much damage having the utility of a pet to be able to take the hits for us.  Well now with the nerfs NOT ONLY TO OUR PET DAMAGE... but to our damage, our stuns and our stifles, our tanks pets are practically useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't believe me?  You must of never played a conjurer.  Mr. Purple Monkey was over powered back in the day, yes he was, but since then our tank pet has been replaced by a wet paper bag.  Yes as summoners we get "stances" for our pets, just like fighters do.  Now ask how much physical mitigation is added by our pets defenseive stance.  Go ahead ask.  If you picked 0 then you are right.  Oh he gets a bonus to tauntability, which is inherently negated due to the attack speed SLOW that comes with defensive stance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way our pets could survive tanking even con no arrow, or up arrow NON HEROIC mobs, is with our stifles and stuns to mitigate some of the damage.  Hell even with a foogin healer my tank pet at AD3 cannot mitigate any damage to be able to tank even BLUE CON triple up heroics.  So if you think they replace PC tanks who can tank yellow and orange con heroics you are HIGHLY HIGHLY mistaken.  Now with the nerf not only to our damage output, our stuns and our stifles our pet is about as worth as a dot that will die to a single AoE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posted by AKITO.... that is right AKITO You can't stop the message SoE!</DIV> <DIV>70 Conjurer - Mistmoore Server</DIV> <P>Message Edited by saotome007 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:55 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by saotome007 on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[enc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> saotome007 wrote:<BR> <DIV>  So if you think they replace PC tanks who can tank yellow and orange con heroics you are HIGHLY HIGHLY mistaken.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I hace never said such thing. of course they couldn't replace a tank for yellow or orange encounter. I'm just saying that the argument saying omg my pet wont be able to tank an heroic mob for my duo a group isn't relevant.</P> <P>And if you think you won't be able to solo real solo mobs and^one up arrow mob, you re just kidding yourself.</P>

[saotome0]

<DIV>you would be surprised with our tank pets fighting even con single up solo mob.  with no group bufffs for mit, no heals (our lowly 500 pet heal is worth crap) and our newly nerfed stuns and stifles, i do not think it would hold up without having to root mob, and chain summon pets... which if i wanted to do that, i would play EQ1 again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-=Akito - 70 Conjurer Mistmoore</DIV>

[enc]

dont wanna ruin it for you but white single arrow mobs are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill. it's supposed to be an even fight.

[saotome0]

<DIV>tell that to every monk, bruiser and shadowknight in the game.</DIV>

[MrWolfie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote:<BR> so basically you're saying you,  a necro, should be able to tank an heroic mob for a duo group. Sorry but i'm not sure the game should revolve around a necro (his pet) being able to tank heroic mobs for a duo group.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Since the game is supposed to be balanced so that a duo (of any sort) should be able to achieve victory over BLUE AND GREEN heroic mobs <FONT color=#66cc00>[read your con messages sometime]</FONT> then just who do you suggest, in a Necro/Warlock duo, would be tanking the mobs?!?<BR>BTW, I'm the Warlock in the partnership, not the Necro.<BR>And I am saying that a Conjuror/Necro TANK pet should be able to tank any lower level heroic mobs, long enough for the other member of the team to do the damage required or, if the other member is a healer, keep the pet alive until the encounter is done.</P> <P> </P> <P>This isn't about soloing heroics. We're not soloers, we are a small group, and we should be able to do anything a full group can do, just a bit slower and, obviously, below our level.</P> <P>This is not always the case now, and will be even further from viability if these changes go live.</P> <P>As such, I see these changes as a large step away from the direction I want to see the game take.</P> <P> </P> <P>This game should revolve around</P> <UL> <LI>All classes being able to achieve victory over yellow solo encounters, sometimes orange, especially with Adept I & III skills.</LI> <LI>A full group achieving victory over yellow to low red heroic encounters.</LI> <LI>A trio of any classes achieving victory over even con heroics and, if well-equipped, yellow heroics.</LI> <LI>All duos achieving victory over blue and green heroics.</LI></UL> <P>I'm not saying it should be <FONT color=#66cc00>EASY</FONT>. But well played characters of any class should be able to progress as outlined above.</P> <P> </P> <P align=right>DUO FTW</P>

[Jooneau]

The bottom line is that this game is so complicated that there is no real way for them to balance it for every possible duo/small group scenario.Heck, they can't even balance the game properly for soloists; balancing it for groups is a harder problem than that. I have no confidence in them any more. On one hand, you have classes that cannot defeat blue con solo encounters any more, and on the other, you have classes that regularly solo blue, even, or even yellow con heroic encounters with minimal risk. You would think that they would nerf the overpowered classes, but no! they're nerfing the underpowered classes even more.It just shows how completely out of touch they are with their own game, making these grandiose "control changes" when they seem to have no clue what is going on. They seem overly proud of their commitment to making such changes not even considering for a moment just how foolish it is to be committed to breaking your fragile game with poorly considered, untested changes that break more than they fix.Apparently the expressions "it looks good on paper" or "in theory, this should work" have never occurred to them before...What kind of people never have the courage to admit that they're wrong? Perhaps they tried to make them in the best interest in the game, but perhaps they could once, just once admit that they screwed up. They should always remember just how stupidly broken things were when they first released this game and consider the very strong possibility that maybe, just maybe they've screwed things up again.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 PM</span>

[vorek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MrWolfie wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> enc wrote:<BR> so basically you're saying you,  a necro, should be able to tank an heroic mob for a duo group. Sorry but i'm not sure the game should revolve around a necro (his pet) being able to tank heroic mobs for a duo group.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Since the game is supposed to be balanced so that a duo (of any sort) should be able to achieve victory over BLUE AND GREEN heroic mobs <FONT color=#66cc00>[read your con messages sometime]</FONT> then just who do you suggest, in a Necro/Warlock duo, would be tanking the mobs?!?<BR>BTW, I'm the Warlock in the partnership, not the Necro.<BR>And I am saying that a Conjuror/Necro TANK pet should be able to tank any lower level heroic mobs, long enough for the other member of the team to do the damage required or, if the other member is a healer, keep the pet alive until the encounter is done.</P> <P> </P> <P>This isn't about soloing heroics. We're not soloers, we are a small group, and we should be able to do anything a full group can do, just a bit slower and, obviously, below our level.</P> <P>This is not always the case now, and will be even further from viability if these changes go live.</P> <P>As such, I see these changes as a large step away from the direction I want to see the game take.</P> <P> </P> <P>This game should revolve around</P> <UL> <LI>All classes being able to achieve victory over yellow solo encounters, sometimes orange, especially with Adept I & III skills.</LI> <LI>A full group achieving victory over yellow to low red heroic encounters.</LI> <LI>A trio of any classes achieving victory over even con heroics and, if well-equipped, yellow heroics.</LI> <LI>All duos achieving victory over blue and green heroics.</LI></UL> <P>I'm not saying it should be <FONT color=#66cc00>EASY</FONT>. But well played characters of any class should be able to progress as outlined above.</P> <P> </P> <P align=right>DUO FTW</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who says that this is the way it should be? Not SoE...if it is...show me the link that says that DUOs should be able to take out GROUP mobs.</P> <P>I am currently playing my 53 warlock and have NO trouble soloing no arrow and single up YELLOWS on test. Very easy, even with the stun changes, for an intelligent person....and since the death penalty has been babied so much that it is nothing more than the inconvienience of running back to where you want to fight.....so no real risk at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>And perhaps YOU should read the con messages....even at green the ^^^ mobs say that you will need a FEW friends to help.</P> <P> </P> <P>The conjuror/necro pets are NOT meant to take the place of PC tanks. Not even close. They are NOT designed like that. They are made to be a helper who can take more hits than the necromancer.</P> <P> </P> <P>You are correct, the game is drifting away from what you see as the "vision" of the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>But it isn't the DEVs vision...and I kinda like the idea that it will take 3-5 people to take ANY ^^^ mob since they have higher loot tables and are designed for groups and not solo/duos. </P>

[Amocus]

<div><blockquote><hr>MrWolfie wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> e</blockquote><p>Since the game is supposed to be balanced so that a duo (of any sort) should be able to achieve victory over BLUE AND GREEN heroic mobs <font color="#66cc00">[read your con messages sometime]</font> then just who do you suggest, in a Necro/Warlock duo, would be tanking the mobs?!?</p> <p align="right">DUO FTW</p><hr></blockquote> Actually, every time I read my con message on heroric's it says a good challenge for a group of 3 or more. I don't recall ever seeing one that said 2 or more. I could be wrong or my old man's memory is just failing me.</div>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>MrWolfie wrote:<div></div>This game should revolve around <ul> <li>All classes being able to achieve victory over yellow solo encounters, sometimes orange, especially with Adept I & III skills.</li> <li>A full group achieving victory over yellow to low red heroic encounters.</li> <li>A trio of any classes achieving victory over even con heroics and, if well-equipped, yellow heroics.</li> <li>All duos achieving victory over blue and green heroics.</li></ul><hr></blockquote>NO class is balanced to acheive victory over -yellow- encounters.  The balance is for white encounters with standard equipment, BUT some classes, even balanced thus, will be able to solo better against some types of mobs/encounters vs others.  A mage, for example, would excell at soloing a meleer he can keep at distance in some way or another, but would get eaten by alive by a caster even kept at distance.  A fighter might find casters easy peasy but a melee mob toe to toe would be dicier from the damage output.NO group or soloer is balanced to achieve victory vs -any- red.  Oranges, even with a full group, should be a struggle in most cases.As someone else said, group and duo makeup is highly variable.  Not only is there a huge number of combinations available with 24 classes, each person in a 6 member group can have a wide range of gear and spell/CA upgrades creating a nearly infinite variety of class/upgrade/gear combos for a 6 person group.  On top of that, each player brings a different level of personal, player skill to the game.  Player skill -does- play a part in gameplay.  Knowing when to cast something can be just as important as what to cast with a wide variance on what could be "right" for that player in that specific situation.If you want a game which is 100% -perfectly- balanced so that -every- class and player has the exact same chance of succeeding vs each thus-and-so encounter, you need to make the classes identical (or remove class choice altogether), remove all upgrade variance in gear or spells/CAs (or jsut remove the ability to change any gear or spells), require a specific pattern to be the only things which can be cast or used (to remove the player influence, but at that point might as well replace the players with bots), etc.  </div>

[MrWolfie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vorek wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Who says that this is the way it should be? Not SoE...if it is...show me the link that says that DUOs should be able to take out GROUP mobs.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>I just said it. That was the whole point of my post. It was my OPINION.<BR>I happen to think it's a good opinion and that all classes and all gameplay styles are catered for in my "vision". I also happen to think my opinion is a lot closer to SOE's original vision for EQ2 too. My evidence to back that up is the con messages (more to follow on that) and many developer posts on just what the capabilities of small groups should be ~ I've even seen developer posts declaring that SOLOING HEROICS is OK, just not an efficient method of getting XP.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>The speed at which XP accrues is what really separates soloing, duoing/trios and full groups. Re-read my post and you'll be able to deduce the difference a full group brings.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I am currently playing my 53 warlock and have NO trouble soloing no arrow and single up YELLOWS on test. Very easy, even with the stun changes, for an intelligent person....and since the death penalty has been babied so much that it is nothing more than the inconvienience of running back to where you want to fight.....so no real risk at all.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Good for you. I never mentioned my ability to solo once in my post. I'm not sure why you'd bother to bring it up. However, I do believe there are many people who find soloing a real chore now (troubadours and templars spring to mind). They're the ones not happy with the forthcoming changes for reasons of a solo nature (and you can't really comment on that since you're a Warlock).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99></FONT> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And perhaps YOU should read the con messages....even at green the ^^^ mobs say that you will need a FEW friends to help.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>also kyricus wrote:<BR>Actually, every time I read my con message on heroric's it says a good challenge for a group of 3 or more. I don't recall ever seeing one that said 2 or more. I could be wrong or my old man's memory is just failing me.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>I like correcting pedants, so here's the even heroic con message, verbatim:</FONT></P> <P>This heroic encounter is well-matched for a group of three or more. VERY tough creature. Would be a good fight for you and some friends.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>And here is the green heroic con message:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>This heroic encounter is well-matched for a group of three or more. Its appearance is deceiving - it's actually extremely tough. You might want to get some help with this.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>As you can see, I am advised to get a group together with at least two others to tackle the even con ~ any two others, I don't see a stipulation as to which classes I should employ. As far as the green goes ~ it's balanced for a level appropriate group of three or more and I, personally, just might need some help with it. Perhaps only one other person might do the trick, if I happen to be a character who cannot heal or dish out massive DPS... All totally in line with my "vision". Thanks.<BR></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The conjuror/necro pets are NOT meant to take the place of PC tanks. Not even close. They are NOT designed like that. They are made to be a helper who can take more hits than the necromancer.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>And in my vision they're not fulfilling their role. You see, I already know they're NOT currently designed like that ~ I'm saying THEY SHOULD BE.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>But it isn't the DEVs vision...and I kinda like the idea that it will take 3-5 people to take ANY ^^^ mob since they have higher loot tables and are designed for groups and not solo/duos.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>And that's your opinion (one which I think is incorrect and one with which I disagree). I think heroic encounters are designed for small groups that are of a higher level than the encounter just as much as they are for an even group of three+. I also think that, based on all the posts I've read by devs, and the evidence presented to me in game, that my vision is closer than yours. (Just the fact that most of my characters can deal with ANY ^^^ mob that is 10 levels lower than them proves my point, why would the devs allow me to SOLO those heroics if it wasn't part of their vision).</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>NO class is balanced to acheive victory over -yellow- encounters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>And yet, there's plenty of classes out there that have no problem with yellow solo encounters. The only class I personally have any trouble with is the Troubadour.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO group or soloer is balanced to achieve victory vs -any- red.  Oranges, even with a full group, should be a struggle in most cases.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>And yet, they're not. Any full group, played well, can beat low reds ~ I've seen many an occasion when a full group has beaten raid x2 encounters! A room full of green and blue heroics are no match for a full group. That only leads me to believe the game is either horrendously broken, or that full groups should be engaging higher level encounters (for really good XP and higher level loot) while smaller groups aim at evens (and the smaller the group, the lower the level of the encounter). </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>As someone else said, group and duo makeup is highly variable. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>Yes, it's difficult. But that's no reason to shy away from trying to achieve that balance.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR> </P> <P align=right>DUO FTW</P>

[Sir Blig]

<DIV>A problem I see is with their whole take on this! Really what are the classes that use these supposed to be; there view on stun lock seems to covers anything that prevents mobs attacking you, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will use the masters to point it out, The humble Coercer as described by SOE "The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror. Masters of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything about a Coercer really conflicts with everything they mentioned as being a problem and what they were trying to address, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I will echo you on the poor Troubs, in there effort to stop a few situations they have surgically removed (made virtually useless) abilities that were nowhere near the level of what a Coercer could do but were when looking at what would be the strengths of a Troubs when being looked at on its own were up there are the top.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am pretty sure most people were heavily influenced into playing the Troub because of the charm and mez and as the LU stands at the moment I can't see these spells being of any use. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will have to hope beyond hope they find another way only prob is it look like this has already been detrimental to the Troub population and unless something changes more damage will be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alms for the poor!</DIV>

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#66cc00>And yet, they're not. Any full group, played well, can beat low reds ~ I've seen many an occasion when a full group has beaten raid x2 encounters! A room full of green and blue heroics are no match for a full group. That only leads me to believe the game is either horrendously broken, or that full groups should be engaging higher level encounters (for really good XP and higher level loot) while smaller groups aim at evens (and the smaller the group, the lower the level of the encounter). </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P> <P>Hmmm... don't know what groups you have been playing with, but Orange cons are difficult to hit let alone trying to hit red cons which are next to impossible...</P> <P>As for a room full of blue and green cons being no match for a full group, well thier not suposed to be...  White (even con) is suposed to be the the turning point between difficult and easy...  Orange being really difficult, yellow being a little difficult, blue being easy and green being really easy....  So saying that blues and green are no match for a full group is a no brainer...  Ask any group, they would much rather be killing yellow cons for exp...  Orange cons prove to be hard to kill and cause serious down time for groups, so they stick with yellow cons....</P> <P>As for a single group takin down an X2 encounter, it all depends on the con of the X2 encounter...  A well outfitted group should be able to take down a green con X2 encounter...  But I bet you will not see single groups taking down yellow con X2 encounters...  Oh and here is one for you... at level 70 my Assassin can solo kill  level 45^^^ X2 guards in Qeynos....  Maybe I need to be nerfed because I can solo a X2 encounters 25 levels below me.....  I supose I should mention that I nearly died twice doing this and would have if it wasn't for health regen potions and life tap poisons....  Oh and for some crazy reason, neither my Cheap Shot (stun) or my root worked on this mob (hello Epic).....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><p>Message Edited by Aienaa on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 AM</span>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>I am willing to bet that the stun nerf has zero to do with chain stunning, and 100% to do with PvP issues. The more and more I read about why it was done, the more and more it doesn't make sense that it was done to stop chain stuns. Ok so lets read between the lines. Specifically us scouts who took a nerf to TWO stuns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheap shot recast timer reduced, cheap shot duration reduced. Wait why reduce the casting timer if it was being used to chain stun? Oh thats right it wasnt, it was reduced for PvP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thorny traps duration reduced (no change in timer). Why, again chain stun? Nope, this ca hardly ever worked unless you were on absolute stable solid FLAT ground. So this line wasnt being used to chain stun NOTHING. Look at this further, this is amostly SOLO ability. No ranger I know uses it in a group cept ont he occassional pull to hold mob at bay while tank taunts to get agro after pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets take real close looks at this. Some classes could never stun epics, others always could. Scouts dont stun epics, but those that can didnt get there epic stun removed. IF this were a chain stun issue it would have been SIMPLER to just increase the mobs resist to that type of stun/stifle/whatever. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make no mistake about it, the stuns were nerfed for PvP.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote: <P><FONT color=#66cc00>And yet, they're not. Any full group, played well, can beat low reds ~ I've seen many an occasion when a full group has beaten raid x2 encounters! A room full of green and blue heroics are no match for a full group. That only leads me to believe the game is either horrendously broken, or that full groups should be engaging higher level encounters (for really good XP and higher level loot) while smaller groups aim at evens (and the smaller the group, the lower the level of the encounter). </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P> <P>Hmmm... don't know what groups you have been playing with, but Orange cons are difficult to hit let alone trying to hit red cons which are next to impossible...</P> <P>As for a room full of blue and green cons being no match for a full group, well thier not suposed to be...  White (even con) is suposed to be the the turning point between difficult and easy...  Orange being really difficult, yellow being a little difficult, blue being easy and green being really easy....  So saying that blues and green are no match for a full group is a no brainer...  Ask any group, they would much rather be killing yellow cons for exp...  Orange cons prove to be hard to kill and cause serious down time for groups, so they stick with yellow cons....</P> <P>As for a single group takin down an X2 encounter, it all depends on the con of the X2 encounter...  A well outfitted group should be able to take down a green con X2 encounter...  But I bet you will not see single groups taking down yellow con X2 encounters...  Oh and here is one for you... at level 70 my Assassin can solo kill  level 45^^^ X2 guards in Qeynos....  Maybe I need to be nerfed because I can solo a X2 encounters 25 levels below me.....  I supose I should mention that I nearly died twice doing this and would have if it wasn't for health regen potions and life tap poisons....  Oh and for some crazy reason, neither my Cheap Shot (stun) or my root worked on this mob (hello Epic).....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><p>Message Edited by Aienaa on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 AM</span><hr></blockquote> Considering you can trio a yellow con x2 in Bonemire with a good tank, healer, chanter/bard, it's very well possible to do that. Also, most yellow x4s are easily 3-groupable with the right raid setup. Btw, a room full of blue-heroics should not be trivial for a full group, a single blue-heroics, sure, but a room full of them, now that should be hard.

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CBRad929 wrote:<BR> <DIV>My problem with this resolution is that although it fixes these <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>specific group situations</STRONG></FONT>, but in return it also breaks classes that try to solo within their range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Have you tested these changes to see if they "break" your class, or are you just assuming? I agree some classes are affected, but only minorly. Firstly, i dont think anyone is having their CC (stun/stifle/whatever) abilities removed, just lessened. You will still be able to apply the same strats to the same mobs. You will likely take a little more damage because they wont be stunned as long, but i've yet to see a soloer that struggles with solo mobs to the point where the stun they've applied makes or breaks a battle. Where this will hurt you is in your ability to solo mobs that are required to keep a stun lock on for you to beat (heroics). Heroics hitting you a bit more often will hurt you, but this is not part of the equation in what the devs take into account when balancing solo play.

[Sir Blig]

<P>please try working a troub though the levels then,</P> <P> </P> <P>I remember being afraid to fight blue solo mobs, and ANY heroics were two-three shot death to me,</P> <P> </P> <P>I remember well how much i used my mez and my charm just to survive, and how i had to use mezlock for a few min to regen health because if i had not i would have been dead in under 30 sec with the mob still in green and i would have to repeat the proces 5+ times, when troubs say it takes 20 min to kill some things they are not joking, and I never dreamed or trying heroics because one resist and one dead troub. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Soldancer]

-<p>Message Edited by Soldancer on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 PM</span>