Betrayal to a completely different class?

[agress]

<div></div>Now that the "class progression" has gone away completely (i.e. you are a Wizard at level 1, not a Mage or Sorcerer, even though AA's still are based on "Sorcerer")....Could I take a level 40 Shadowknight, and betray to become a Level 40 Mystic?  Yes, most of my gear wouldnt work, but alas, that goes with the territory.  If so, while in exile, am I a level 40 SK with the spells I had before, or am I a level 40 mystic right away with nothing?  That is, do I have to betray with App 1 Skills?I'm just curious how far they will go.  Can an SK only become a Paladin?  Can a Wizard stay as Wizard or switch to Warlock?  Or is it in the middle, can a Wizard become a Necro (i.e. must remain a mage)?agressivUnrest Server<div></div><p>Message Edited by agressiv on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Jooneau]

A Shadowknight cannot become a Mystic. He would become a Paladin.

[Owwiee]

And in the case that your class is avaliable in both cities you remain your chosen class

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Owwiee wrote:<BR> And in the case that your class is avaliable in both cities you remain your chosen class<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, you get a choice to either stay or the same, or change to the other class in your subclass.

[Owwiee]

Hmm well that is indeed stupid.  Oh well dosen't effect me since I don't plan on betraying any of my Chars anyhow.

[agress]

bah, with the downfall of subclasses, and the fact that you are getting reset to App I, i should be able to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian if I wanted.  The effect is the same; all spells are App I, you would just potentially need to get new gear.  The benefit from changing classes completely would be that - I'd have to replace most of my gear - an added cost.Why keep things subclass limited if there are no subclasses?For people hit with the nerf stick with this Live Update, it would give them a chance to change classes to something different.  My troubador isn't very well developed but I would rather change him to some other class, other than a dirge.  The concept of betrayal never went in with class changes (since we were predators/bards/warriors etc at the time) so I'm not sure why it needs to be limited.  I vote that you can change to any class, assuming that class is allowed in your destination city. agressivUnrest Server<div></div>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>agressiv wrote:bah, with the downfall of subclasses, and the fact that you are getting reset to App I, i should be able to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian if I wanted.  The effect is the same; all spells are App I, you would just potentially need to get new gear.  The benefit from changing classes completely would be that - I'd have to replace most of my gear - an added cost.Why keep things subclass limited if there are no subclasses?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Betrayal's never worked that way. It's always had the result it does now, even with subclasses - the crusader who betrayed was limited to Shadowknight (if going to Freeport) or Paladin (in Qeynos). Once you picked Fighter on the Isle, you've cut yourself off from 12 classes. If you really wanted to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian, then you should also go back down to level 1, or at least lose levels, since an illusionist doesn't know much about being a guardian. I wouldn't mind some sort of class-changing method, but betrayal's not it. Betrayal's about changing cities, not really about classes.<div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agressiv wrote:<BR>bah, with the downfall of subclasses, and the fact that you are getting reset to App I, i should be able to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian if I wanted.  The effect is the same; all spells are App I, you would just potentially need to get new gear.  The benefit from changing classes completely would be that - I'd have to replace most of my gear - an added cost.<BR><BR>Why keep things subclass limited if there are no subclasses?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Betrayal's never worked that way. It's always had the result it does now, even with subclasses - the crusader who betrayed was limited to Shadowknight (if going to Freeport) or Paladin (in Qeynos). Once you picked Fighter on the Isle, you've cut yourself off from 12 classes. If you really wanted to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian, then you should also go back down to level 1, or at least lose levels, since an illusionist doesn't know much about being a guardian. I wouldn't mind some sort of class-changing method, but betrayal's not it. Betrayal's about changing cities, not really about classes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>18 classes, not 12, heh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[agress]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<blockquote><hr>agressiv wrote:bah, with the downfall of subclasses, and the fact that you are getting reset to App I, i should be able to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian if I wanted.  The effect is the same; all spells are App I, you would just potentially need to get new gear.  The benefit from changing classes completely would be that - I'd have to replace most of my gear - an added cost.Why keep things subclass limited if there are no subclasses?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Betrayal's never worked that way. It's always had the result it does now, even with subclasses - the crusader who betrayed was limited to Shadowknight (if going to Freeport) or Paladin (in Qeynos). Once you picked Fighter on the Isle, you've cut yourself off from 12 classes. If you really wanted to go from an Illusionist to a Guardian, then you should also go back down to level 1, or at least lose levels, since an illusionist doesn't know much about being a guardian. I wouldn't mind some sort of class-changing method, but betrayal's not it. Betrayal's about changing cities, not really about classes.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats my point, it never worked that way in the past.  When you betrayed before level 18, you were a crusader, so there never was technically a class change.  Now there is.  Spells were never reset back then either.  Now, I assume paladins get a heal below level 20 and SK's get a lifetap below level 20.  They never had that as crusaders.  (Maybe they still dont, but thats beside the point)So, if a Wizard betrays, under this belief, they should remain a wizard.  Reset them to app 1?  Fine.  But why allow the change to Warlock when it isn't required for class alignment?  If you allow the change to warlock, you should allow a change to a Guardian.  Like I said, everything is still App 1.  Yes, betrayal is about betraying cities.  If that is the case, and its not about classes, then allow Shadowknights in Qeynos and Paladins in Freeport.  After all, isn't Lucan a paladin?Yes, an Illusionist doesn't know much about being a guardian, but an illusionist also doesn't know much about coercing either.  Just the same, a guardian doesn't go berzerk.  A warlock doesn't know much about cold, fire, and lightning.  When we had the subclasses, they did.  As a warlock, I dont even have my cold/fire/lightning spells I had as a sorcerer anymore, so assuming I rolled my warlock after that change went in, I am limited to 2 cold spells, one of them that does fire damage.  Everything else is disease/poison.I didn't like the subclass removal.  However, if its gone, and we limit classes to specific cities, then the book should be thrown out, and a betrayal should allow for a class change, especially if the spells are being reset no matter what.  After all, from a practical standpoint, an illusionist who had master 1 spells was a "master" in their art.  After they become a guardian, they are an "apprentice".  Just because its a fighter class shouldnt make any difference.   I don't see how this unbalances the game.  At level 70, this will be a MAJOR cost to any serious player.Resetting them to level 1 makes no sense, I would just roll a new character.  From what I've gathered, the betrayal will take a long time - lots of guard grinding, I assume, or at least orc/gnoll etc, depending on the city.Warlocks and Wizards have nothing to do with each other now.  They only share 2 spells (bloodlines Ice Flame and Splitpaw's Word of Force) along with the heroic opportunity.  The AA lines were added after the fact, but still use the old subclass system.  So, are subclasses gone or not?its just not consistent.agressivUnrest Server </div>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div>18 classes, not 12, heh <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>*carefully draws over the 2 to make it look like an 8* See? 18! <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>agressiv wrote:<div>Thats my point, it never worked that way in the past.  When you betrayed before level 18, you were a crusader, so there never was technically a class change.  Now there is.  Spells were never reset back then either.  Now, I assume paladins get a heal below level 20 and SK's get a lifetap below level 20.  They never had that as crusaders.  (Maybe they still dont, but thats beside the point) <hr> There was, indirectly. Once you picked Crusader, you were locked in to Shadowknight or Paladin. Everything else, from Guardian to Assassin to Templar, was off-limits to you. The final choice then depended only on your city - a Freeport Crusader could only become a Shadowknight, unless he betrayed, in which case he could only choose Paladin. For the neutral classes, there were still options - a sorceror could choose wizard or warlock. Now, it's basically the same. A wizard who betrays can either stay a wizard or switch to warlock. Maybe it makes less sense for the neutral classes, but it leaves open the opportunity to switch to the other class in the former subclass. The <hr>agressiv wrote: Yes, betrayal is about betraying cities.  If that is the case, and its not about classes, then allow Shadowknights in Qeynos and Paladins in Freeport.  After all, isn't Lucan a paladin? <hr>Lucan's a fallen paladin, or, I suppose, a shadowknight. I said betrayal was primarily about cities (or, if you prefer, alignment), only forcing the class change when the old class is incompatible with the new alignment. There's no such thing as an evil paladin, nor is an assassin likely to be good. Should we allow good shadowknights in Qeynos and evil rangers in Freeport? Maybe, but that's not what's planned, and I think it would mess with things too much. <hr>agressiv wrote: Yes, an Illusionist doesn't know much about being a guardian, but an illusionist also doesn't know much about coercing either.  Just the same, a guardian doesn't go berzerk.  A warlock doesn't know much about cold, fire, and lightning.  When we had the subclasses, they did.  As a warlock, I dont even have my cold/fire/lightning spells I had as a sorcerer anymore, so assuming I rolled my warlock after that change went in, I am limited to 2 cold spells, one of them that does fire damage.  Everything else is disease/poison. <hr> I've only played the paladin to anything above 20, so I'll take your word for it. Still, the guardian and the berzerker both know about fighting, while the illusionist and coercer are skilled with magic. It's less of a transition, so you lose your skills while keeping your level, if we really need a reason for the game mechanic. I was thinking of D&D as an example - the 5th-level fighter who decides to add some healing spells starts with one level of cleric, rather than converting to a 6th-level cleric. EQ2 isn't quite the same system, but there's still the idea of learning new skills. <hr>agressiv wrote: I didn't like the subclass removal.  However, if its gone, and we limit classes to specific cities, then the book should be thrown out, and a betrayal should allow for a class change, especially if the spells are being reset no matter what.  After all, from a practical standpoint, an illusionist who had master 1 spells was a "master" in their art.  After they become a guardian, they are an "apprentice".  Just because its a fighter class shouldnt make any difference.   I don't see how this unbalances the game.  At level 70, this will be a MAJOR cost to any serious player. Resetting them to level 1 makes no sense, I would just roll a new character.  From what I've gathered, the betrayal will take a long time - lots of guard grinding, I assume, or at least orc/gnoll etc, depending on the city. <hr> I liked the subclass system, too, although getting to start as a new class instead of yet another fighter is nice. I don't think allowing a class change would unbalance things, but I don't think the betrayal quest is the place for it. I'd like to see another quest where you could change class, perhaps because your character wants a new line of work, or maybe just because your old class got nerfed and you don't like it anymore. It shouldn't be easy nor without a big penalty. Dropping them to level 1 would allow you to keep all your quests and items while getting a new class. Or maybe you could only lose a certain percentage of levels, depending on what you were switching to. <hr>agressiv wrote: So, are subclasses gone or not? <hr> I guess the answer to that is sort of.</div></blockquote><div></div>

[agress]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<blockquote><div>Lucan's a fallen paladin, or, I suppose, a shadowknight. I said betrayal was primarily about cities (or, if you prefer, alignment), only forcing the class change when the old class is incompatible with the new alignment. There's no such thing as an evil paladin, nor is an assassin likely to be good. Should we allow good shadowknights in Qeynos and evil rangers in Freeport? Maybe, but that's not what's planned, and I think it would mess with things too much. <font color="#ff0000">I think it would be interesting - maybe the "evil rangers" or the "good necromancers" would be shunned in the new city (but allowed, and not attacked by the guards) and only critical people will converse with you (merchants won't give you quests, but allow you to buy/sell from them, writ givers still give writs etc)  I don't see how it would really be impactful.  its all about programming and coding.  At one point you could sneak into the city and (some) merchants would do busine</font><font color="#ff0000">ss with you, like the book vendors in the various cities.  They actually changed it so they wouldn't.  </font> <hr> I liked the subclass system, too, although getting to start as a new class instead of yet another fighter is nice. I don't think allowing a class change would unbalance things, but I don't think the betrayal quest is the place for it. I'd like to see another quest where you could change class, perhaps because your character wants a new line of work, or maybe just because your old class got nerfed and you don't like it anymore. It shouldn't be easy nor without a big penalty. <font color="#ff0000">I guess I can agree with this, although maybe the betrayal (or shall I say, exile) would be a requirement for a class change, if so desired.  I picture this Haven place as a place that has representatives from all classes  in both cities (where applicable) for you to talk to and learn about classes.  I could see a conversation like this:Qeynos Monk NPC:  So you're a wizard from Freeport, eh?  Not digging it there?  Don't like to waggle the fingers after all?  Don't like that tyrant Lucan?  Qeynos is about this </font><font color="#ff0000"><fill in the blank> </font><font color="#ff0000">and Monks believe in the <fill in the blank> .Under the subclass system, you had a chance to at least pick a finger waggler (Mage) and talk to various people to decide how you wanted to proceed down your path (sorcerer, enchanter, summoner).  This happened many times, and the hallmark quests for choosing a profession were very enriching.  Thats all gone now.  You make the decision now, at level 1, and are stuck with it.   If betrayal isn't about class change, then you are right, there should just be a "Class change" quest.  Same goes with tradeskills (But thats a subject for another conversation)However, if it were part of betrayal, maybe you would lose all faction once you betray, but to allow a class change, you could simply build faction back up?  (ie +40,000 faction with freeport, then betray, go KOS (-40,000), and build faction back up with Freeport to become another class, thereby staying in Freeport)My point is, it was black and white when we had subclasses.  Now its different, and not only is the betrayal process TOTALLY different than before, subclasses are gone, and you can betray at any level.  Why not make it much more invoved than trying to emulate how betrayal used to be?  Why must it have facets of the original betrayal?  If you dont want to change class, don't!  Have your Paladin become a Shadowknight like it used to be.  But by your words, having a Paladin become a Berzerker *shouldn't* be a stretch.  Having an Coercer become a Conjurer wouldnt be a stretch either, since they both deal with pets.  One just happens to summon them, the other happens to charm them.Its all about where you draw the line, and drawing the line where the level 10-19 subclasses used to be is, well, uinimaginative, in my opinion.<font color="#ffffff">agressiv</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">Unrest Server</font><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></div></blockquote></blockquote></div>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>agressiv wrote: <div> <div> <font color="#ff0000">I think it would be interesting - maybe the "evil rangers" or the "good necromancers" would be shunned in the new city (but allowed, and not attacked by the guards) and only critical people will converse with you (merchants won't give you quests, but allow you to buy/sell from them, writ givers still give writs etc)  I don't see how it would really be impactful.  its all about programming and coding.  At one point you could sneak into the city and (some) merchants would do busine</font><font color="#ff0000">ss with you, like the book vendors in the various cities.  They actually changed it so they wouldn't.  </font> <hr> I'm still not sure how every guard in Freeport recognises every Qeynosian on sight. They must have amazing memories. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I remember buying from the merchants - that's how I got all the books from Freeport, since I never bought them before I went to Qeynos. I was quite disappointed when they took that away. I suppose there could be some sort of system like what you describe, although I don't see the game going in that direction. Qeynosians are good, Freeportians are evil, and the two cities don't have much to do with one another. The PvP restrictions also indicate that they want things separate, although some of that is more for game reasons. Still, some classes must be one or the other. Paladins cannot be evil, nor are assassination or necromancy good. <font color="#ff0000">I guess I can agree with this, although maybe the betrayal (or shall I say, exile) would be a requirement for a class change, if so desired.  I picture this Haven place as a place that has representatives from all classes  in both cities (where applicable) for you to talk to and learn about classes.  I could see a conversation like this:Qeynos Monk NPC:  So you're a wizard from Freeport, eh?  Not digging it there?  Don't like to waggle the fingers after all?  Don't like that tyrant Lucan?  Qeynos is about this </font><font color="#ff0000"><fill in the blank> </font><font color="#ff0000">and Monks believe in the <fill in the blank> .<font color="#ffffff">I like that, and I wouldn't mind a class change system to accompany the betrayal quest, although not necessarily. Someone might want to go from templar to guardian, but stay in Qeynos.</font> Under the subclass system, you had a chance to at least pick a finger waggler (Mage) and talk to various people to decide how you wanted to proceed down your path (sorcerer, enchanter, summoner).  This happened many times, and the hallmark quests for choosing a profession were very enriching.  Thats all gone now.  You make the decision now, at level 1, and are stuck with it.   If betrayal isn't about class change, then you are right, there should just be a "Class change" quest.  Same goes with tradeskills (But thats a subject for another conversation) </font><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">I'd like a tradeskill change, too, although you'd probably lose all your recipes. If not, you could eventually learn all the skills and make everything, destroying the economy for crafted goods. Why buy it when you can make it yourself? Most people wouldn't want to grind through everything, but I think enough would for it to be a problem. You do make the decision now, but you get a chance on the Isle to figure out how the profession works. Don't like ranged weapons? Maybe the ranger isn't for you. Want to tank? Delete the wizard and start over. You don't lose too much if you start over at level 8 or 9, while you did at 20. The new way isn't all bad, but I do miss the quests. I'd love to see them bring them back somehow, maybe just for rewards, or even as advancement requirements. </font></font><font color="#ff0000"> My point is, it was black and white when we had subclasses.  Now its different, and not only is the betrayal process TOTALLY different than before, subclasses are gone, and you can betray at any level.  Why not make it much more invoved than trying to emulate how betrayal used to be?  Why must it have facets of the original betrayal?  If you dont want to change class, don't!  Have your Paladin become a Shadowknight like it used to be.  But by your words, having a Paladin become a Berzerker *shouldn't* be a stretch.  Having an Coercer become a Conjurer wouldnt be a stretch either, since they both deal with pets.  One just happens to summon them, the other happens to charm them. </font><font color="#ff0000">Its all about where you draw the line, and drawing the line where the level 10-19 subclasses used to be is, well, uinimaginative, in my opinion. </font><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Maybe they should have this, but they don't. I suppose this is one of the few posts calling for more change rather than less. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also liked SWG's system, before they changed it, where you learned skills rather than advanced in a class, but I doubt we'll ever see that here. In any case, the lack of a class-changing system isn't something that's going to make me leave the game. The devs also have to think about (sometimes too much, in my opinion) how a certain feature will be abused. They don't want changing classes to become common, so they leave it out, knowing people will switch whenever there's an advantage. </font></font></div> </div></blockquote><div></div>

[agress]

Well the dev transcript answered the question:<hr size="2" width="100%"><span><span>[19:18] *terrifiedkiller* are there any plans to enable the switch to any class of your archtype through betrayal like if i was a conjourer betraying could i become a wiz/warlock as long as the choice stays in the current archtype that you originally chose from without having to make a new char for those who are high lvl and so on?<font color="#ff0000">If you are a Conjurer and betray you'll become a Necromancer.  There are no plans to allow switching to a whole new class.</font></span></span><hr size="2" width="100%">Oh well, better luck next time!agressivUnrest Server<div></div>

[nailhead]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>The main issue I have with the betrayal system is that if you are a certain class like a Wizard you wont really get an option.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Having this new betrayal will only benefit some players, It would be more fair if you could betray within your sub-class ie mage, priest etc  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300> One of the biggest problems in the game is shortage of certain classes, ie some scout and mage classes. So if there is a shortage of Enchanters as a whole , no amounts of betraying is going to address this inbalance.  Wizzies tend to be an unwanted class as far as the raiding guilds go, so give them a chance to become something useful!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Nato</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>65 Wizard</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>39 Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>36 Guardian</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>24 Necro</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>21 Dirge</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>23 Bruiser</FONT></DIV>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>nailhead wrote:<div><font color="#ff3300">The main issue I have with the betrayal system is that if you are a certain class like a Wizard you wont really get an option.</font></div> <div><font color="#ff3300">Having this new betrayal will only benefit some players, It would be more fair if you could betray within your sub-class ie mage, priest etc  </font></div> <div><font color="#ff3300"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ff3300"> One of the biggest problems in the game is shortage of certain classes, ie some scout and mage classes. So if there is a shortage of Enchanters as a whole , no amounts of betraying is going to address this inbalance.  Wizzies tend to be an unwanted class as far as the raiding guilds go, so give them a chance to become something useful!</font></div><hr></blockquote>Wizards, as far as I know, will be able to stay wizards or switch to Warlock.</div>

[graxnip]

hi - got a question sorta on sotra off topicI have a lvl 30 guardian which I havent played in almost a year - can I betray from freeport - to the temporary city ( sorry I cant recall what it is called atm)  - become a berserker - then go back to FP - queynos lacks, I'd just like to change the class )thanks<div></div>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>graxnip wrote:I have a lvl 30 guardian which I havent played in almost a year - can I betray from freeport - to the temporary city ( sorry I cant recall what it is called atm)  - become a berserker - then go back to FP - queynos lacks, I'd just like to change the class )<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure - you might have to go to Qeynos and then back to Freeport.</div>

[G3IST]

I'd like the option to betray to any class but it does seem a little far out there, but we should be able to atleast change to a class within our archetype.  I say this because of what they did with the combat revamp which came when a lot of players were already at the lvl cap and they completely changed most of the classes.  I would have never started my SK if I knew what my class was going to become almost a year after the game was launched.  I would betray in a second if I could become any of the fighter classes (out of the ones allowed in the particular city).  If they hadnt changed the classes so much (and they keep changing them) I would agree with that we couldnt switch to any class, but thats not the case so I really hope they give the ability to change within your archetype even if its not with this update but sometime later on.