How about a secondary test server?

[Jaimster]

<DIV>I realize that the Test Server likes their community (understandably so) and functions in the same way that the Live servers do and so they really don't want people being able to character copy and test...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why don't they have a second TEST server where either a) you can take a character and level normally, b) you can /character copy, or c) if they don't want people to character copy, there is an option to speak to an NPC and level a new character to 70 automatically.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would leave the Test Server as the normal server for testing for smaller, day to day changes and bugs, but still allow for people to test the BIG changes to their characters while they are still being tested (e.g. LU24 will hugely effect my troubador but by the time I could level to 70 on the test server, they'd be making changes to another class).  This might reduce panic/nausea/frustration/hysteria when big changes come around. Some of it is totally understandable (this LU i'm pretty sure all of it is, but anyway)...and other times it turns out that it's really not so bad in the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would at least be a feature to provide better testing for big LU's that get pushed through with bugs in them (no offense to the real Test Server, I appreciate all you do) that the normal Test server just doesn't seem to have enough people/time to feedback on before it goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought.  I would certainly join it.</DIV>

[Rattfa]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div>c) if they don't want people to character copy, there is an option to speak to an NPC and level a new character to 70 automatically.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>This would be crap, because tons of people would flood the server just to make their lvl70s....i know, becuase I did it frequently on SWG test serverAnd you are wrong about bugs not being caught....There are a lot of dedicated players on test, and most of the bugs are caught and /bugged Thing is, they arent always fixed before things go live, and then there is a flood of complaints saying that the testers are useless, which really isnt the case at all.ALSO, if you really wanted to put the time and effort into being a tester (ie only playing on test) then you wouldnt have any problems at all creating a bunch of new players and leveling them to various points through the different tiers</div><p>Message Edited by themixmonkey on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 PM</span>

[Jooneau]

The testers on Test ARE useless if the developers don't do anything about the /bug reports submitted there. It isn't your fault though; it's the developers' fault. And it probably isn't the developers' fault; it's the producers who want to push buggy, unfinished product out the door before the developers say it's ready.There isn't much of a community on Test. To give you an idea, /who all actually lists everybody playing on Test even during peak US playing hours. I'm not saying you guys don't exist; you're just barely there, compared to the communities that exist on the live servers.We really don't need a "secondary" Test server when we're barely using the one we have.

[HaCkHaCkER]

snipThere isn't much of a community on Testsnipyou must be out of your mind. we have a fantastic community of people on test, that do play very regularly. we have a smaller group of players, but we are a lot closer to each other than most i have seen on the live servers.testers ARE NOT useless, just because a bug is pushed to live does not meen the devs want to cause you problems. if software were held untill all bugs were caught and fixed, there would be no software on the market.the updates are usually pushed because most people want the new content or changes as soon as they can, but yet they complain when there is a bug in the system.that snip at the top just really pisses me off

[Zeral498]

Often times, the devs release the tail-end and patch-up work of an LU to the Live Servers before having it go through Test. Remember the problem where you got rooted upon death? That happened because the devs tossed in some extra code and released it as the "LU" before having that extra bit filtered through Test. Consequently, many of the major bugs goes through to the Live Servers. I only see one major problem and 2 minor problems with Test right: Major #1: Our population is thin, so it is extremely difficult to cover all level ranges. A lot of people on Test are altaholics so each level tier does get tested, but not thoroughly. Minor #1: Testing raid content it still a minor problem. We have a raid force up and running now, and we're starting to go into Lab now (going there today or Saturday as a matter of fact). We're getting much better and more organized in this department. Minor #2: Testing various spells, especially the higher level ones. Due to the lack of high-end tradeskillers and the scarcity of T7 rares on the brokers, I personally have not been able to get all my T7 spells yet. This is again a minor problem because I have most of my spells from Masters or Adept Is, but nevertheless it is still a minor issue. Otherwise, us Testers are doing our job fine. Unfortunately only the major bugs are addressed and the minor tweaks are pushed back for a long time. <div></div>

[Pyrrhon]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>themixmonkey wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<div>c) if they don't want people to character copy, there is an option to speak to an NPC and level a new character to 70 automatically.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote><snip>ALSO, if you really wanted to put the time and effort into being a tester (ie only playing on test) then you wouldnt have any problems at all creating a bunch of new players and leveling them to various points through the different tiers</div><hr></blockquote>I agree with your general point, Mixmonkey, but I think it should be noted that the sort of testers who are truly devoted to helping a game along <i>after </i>beta are few and far between. They don't get paid; their only compensation is the pride in helping a game improve and the exclusivity of seeing new content first (edit: also, perhaps, the pleasure that comes with solving a tricky issue and discovering a subtle problem). These are certainly compelling incentives to some people, but most do not consider it worthwhile, or intuitive, to simply "creating a bunch of new players and leveling them to various points in the different tiers".I guess what I'm saying is that such an expectation does NOT encourage the majority of people to test, and while our current testers DO, indeed, do a good job, more casual testers would, I think, increase the speed and efficiency of the testing community as a whole.</div><p>Message Edited by Pyrrhonic on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>HaCkHaCkER wrote:snipThere isn't much of a community on Testsnipyou must be out of your mind. we have a fantastic community of people on test, that do play very regularly. we have a smaller group of players, but we are a lot closer to each other than most i have seen on the live servers.testers ARE NOT useless, just because a bug is pushed to live does not meen the devs want to cause you problems. if software were held untill all bugs were caught and fixed, there would be no software on the market.the updates are usually pushed because most people want the new content or changes as soon as they can, but yet they complain when there is a bug in the system.that snip at the top just really pisses me off<hr></blockquote>OK, fine, you're a community ... all 12 of you, ROFLMFAO.That's not a community; heck, in some actual communities, that's not even a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] household.Sorry but I can't take seriously any server that fields at most 50-60 people during peak hours in an MMO with live servers that have 1000's of people playing. Which server do you think will find more bugs, eh?I don't consider it progress that it is considered acceptable to ship buggy software on time rather than ship quality software late.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeral498 wrote:<BR>Often times, the devs release the tail-end and patch-up work of an LU to the Live Servers before having it go through Test. Remember the problem where you got rooted upon death? That happened because the devs tossed in some extra code and released it as the "LU" before having that extra bit filtered through Test. Consequently, many of the major bugs goes through to the Live Servers. I only see one major problem and 2 minor problems with Test right:<BR><BR>Major #1: Our population is thin, so it is extremely difficult to cover all level ranges. A lot of people on Test are altaholics so each level tier does get tested, but not thoroughly.<BR><BR>Minor #1: Testing raid content it still a minor problem. We have a raid force up and running now, and we're starting to go into Lab now (going there today or Saturday as a matter of fact). We're getting much better and more organized in this department.<BR><BR>Minor #2: Testing various spells, especially the higher level ones. Due to the lack of high-end tradeskillers and the scarcity of T7 rares on the brokers, I personally have not been able to get all my T7 spells yet. This is again a minor problem because I have most of my spells from Masters or Adept Is, but nevertheless it is still a minor issue.<BR><BR>Otherwise, us Testers are doing our job fine. Unfortunately only the major bugs are addressed and the minor tweaks are pushed back for a long time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just want to say regardless of perceived issues wiht testing, this is one of the more objective posts from a tester I have seen w/o taking personal affront when people ask for a copy server, or the ability to copy to test.</P> <P>One thing people need to realize is when people ask to copy, they are not being selfish, or lazy, or insulting (well some may, but not all) and there is no need to take it as a personal insult.</P> <P>Test is not a perfect environment to do all sorts of testing but it does its intended job admirably.</P> <P>I personaly feel there should be a copy server but we all have opinions.  I just found this response very honest and refreshing.<BR></P>

[Jaimster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeral498 wrote:<BR>Often times, the devs release the tail-end and patch-up work of an LU to the Live Servers before having it go through Test. Remember the problem where you got rooted upon death? That happened because the devs tossed in some extra code and released it as the "LU" before having that extra bit filtered through Test. Consequently, many of the major bugs goes through to the Live Servers. I only see one major problem and 2 minor problems with Test right:<BR><BR>Major #1: Our population is thin, so it is extremely difficult to cover all level ranges. A lot of people on Test are altaholics so each level tier does get tested, but not thoroughly.<BR><BR>Minor #1: Testing raid content it still a minor problem. We have a raid force up and running now, and we're starting to go into Lab now (going there today or Saturday as a matter of fact). We're getting much better and more organized in this department.<BR><BR>Minor #2: Testing various spells, especially the higher level ones. Due to the lack of high-end tradeskillers and the scarcity of T7 rares on the brokers, I personally have not been able to get all my T7 spells yet. This is again a minor problem because I have most of my spells from Masters or Adept Is, but nevertheless it is still a minor issue.<BR><BR>Otherwise, us Testers are doing our job fine. Unfortunately only the major bugs are addressed and the minor tweaks are pushed back for a long time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just want to say regardless of perceived issues wiht testing, this is one of the more objective posts from a tester I have seen w/o taking personal affront when people ask for a copy server, or the ability to copy to test.</P> <P>One thing people need to realize is when people ask to copy, they are not being selfish, or lazy, or insulting (well some may, but not all) and there is no need to take it as a personal insult.</P> <P>Test is not a perfect environment to do all sorts of testing but it does its intended job admirably.</P> <P>I personaly feel there should be a copy server but we all have opinions.  I just found this response very honest and refreshing.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd agree... my purpose in this post was most definitely NOT to insult the Test Server base.  My point was that I understand and respect the concept that they do NOT want copy characters floated into their community. That has been argued back and forth (especially around LU13) plenty - it wasn't my purpose to bring up that argument again.</P> <P>For changes that are as large and widespread as this next LU is looking to be (between combat changes and tradeskill changes), my only thought was that it couldn't possibly hurt to have a separate server available to test updates using their copied characters... it was an idea since almost every large LU somewhere, someone mentions wishing they had a high level character on the test server to test the changes... I know I do, but i have no desire to re-level my troub to 70... I just don't have that much time on my hands. But if I could copy my character I'd be happy to spend a few weeks testing instead of on live servers.<BR></P>

[Zeral498]

<blockquote><hr>Jaimster wrote:<p>For changes that are as large and widespread as this next LU is looking to be (between combat changes and tradeskill changes), my only thought was that it couldn't possibly hurt to have a separate server available to test updates using their copied characters... it was an idea since almost every large LU somewhere, someone mentions wishing they had a high level character on the test server to test the changes... I know I do, but i have no desire to re-level my troub to 70... I just don't have that much time on my hands. But if I could copy my character I'd be happy to spend a few weeks testing instead of on live servers.</p><hr></blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't mind if they made another server that allowed people to copy their character over for testing. However, I believe that this server would be extremely unsuccessful. Maybe at first some people, especially raiders, will copy their toons and go through the raid content if a new one comes out. But how often does new raid content come out? Not very often. The server will be empty once the raid content gets tested, and it will remain empty until SoE patches new raid content. Heck, although the raiders in these forums have said that they are willing to test raid content if they could copy their toons, I doubt they'd do it. They might do it once or twice, but human nature will kick in - the raiding they do on the copyable Test Server doesn't help their characters on Live, so they'll just stop testing due to laziness. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably get lazy too. Let's face it - raiders/hardcore players are the ones who really want a toon-copyable Test server. So once they are done testing raid content if they even do it, they will go back to Live and the copyable Test server will be empty. And SoE has to maintain that server. Not only is making a brand new server extremely expensive, maintaining one is also very expensive. From their point of view it's probably not worth investing a Test sever with copyable toons since it won't be used 90% of the time.<div></div>

[StealthM0]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeral498 wrote:<BR>Often times, the devs release the tail-end and patch-up work of an LU to the Live Servers before having it go through Test. Remember the problem where you got rooted upon death? That happened because the devs tossed in some extra code and released it as the "LU" before having that extra bit filtered through Test. Consequently, many of the major bugs goes through to the Live Servers. I only see one major problem and 2 minor problems with Test right:<BR><BR>Major #1: Our population is thin, so it is extremely difficult to cover all level ranges. A lot of people on Test are altaholics so each level tier does get tested, but not thoroughly.<BR><BR>Minor #1: Testing raid content it still a minor problem. We have a raid force up and running now, and we're starting to go into Lab now (going there today or Saturday as a matter of fact). We're getting much better and more organized in this department.<BR><BR>Minor #2: Testing various spells, especially the higher level ones. Due to the lack of high-end tradeskillers and the scarcity of T7 rares on the brokers, I personally have not been able to get all my T7 spells yet. This is again a minor problem because I have most of my spells from Masters or Adept Is, but nevertheless it is still a minor issue.<BR><BR>Otherwise, us Testers are doing our job fine. Unfortunately only the major bugs are addressed and the minor tweaks are pushed back for a long time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Regarding Minor #1. Didn't they invite select ppl (guilds) into beta test KoS raid content? Did this guilds not feedback? Or once again did SoE ignore the feedback? Its obvious its the last one. Cause there you are needing to test raid content again.</P> <P>The fact is SoE policy seems to be, if it isn't broken, break it. If it's working as intended, change it so it isn't. Every addon, expansion, update since LAUNCH has been like this. And here we are 18+ months since launch and still bugs exist that existed in beta. Until they overhaul the content they have now testing future content is silly. Bugs compounding bugs, eventually will render any engine utter crap.</P> <P>We know the UI hits the performance 50%+, was anything done to reduce this in the past year? Nope.</P> <P>Has the memory error bug been addressed in recent patches? Nope. But a small circle of software developers that play this game say its because SoE didn't upgrade to dx9c when the rest of hte world did. And that in fact that lack of timely updating to their own equipment is what is in fact causing these memory errors. Isn't THAT interesting reading.</P> <P>Player made ships. Told since beta that players would get player crafted ships, 18 months later, still no ships. The ones in the game they have now they are trying to remove (boat rides for access quests) by removing the aq to that zone.</P> <P>We won't nerf a class for pvp. Heh, PIPEDREAM. Rangers have found out a few times we've been nerfed/altered/whatever, it is to balance pvp issues and not to balance the class for pve (which is exactly opposite of what devs say).</P> <P>Two nights ago they had a HoC (House of Commons) chat on irc. They ignored over 90% of what was asked, core issues the community had. The only things they really touched on were that they added a timer panel to the backend for customer service so raid timers can be reset in the right cases. Every other question NOT expansion related was ignored. Sign of the times. They do not care despite their outward comments.</P> <P>Again this all stems to a huge single problem at SoE, poor Quality Controls. Any other software giant has a QA dept that thoroughly tests products before they are shipped. Unfortunately, SoEs approach is test it minimally and push it on everyone and if its bugged, we might fix it in 6mos to a year.</P> <P>Tired of supporting a company that doesn't listen to its customers. June 6th can't get here quick enough.</P> <P>You don't need a 2nd test server, you need a dev team, and a production manager that will listen to the community. Unfortunately, that will never happen at SoE.</P><p>Message Edited by StealthM0de on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>