Why the Nerfs to soloers?

[Maroger]

<DIV>More to the point why do developers <FONT color=#ccff00 size=4>NERF</FONT>???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason they nerf is that it is the easiest and fastest way to change code to conform with their idea of balance. Other methods of balancing -- redesign encounters, change attributes and position of mobs, AI etc. all require more time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#cc33ff>SOOOO------ they take the quickest route -- NERF - and the hell with the players and what they think!! </FONT></EM></DIV>

[Pins]

<DIV>This isn't a nerf to soloers who solo, solo mobs.  They will continue on killing these solo mobs just fine.</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

They're reducing the duration on a solo ability, namely Cheap Shot. It doesn't work on heroics, has only 2 seconds on ^ and will only get the full 6 seconds that is being reduced to 4 seconds on no arrow or down arrow mobs, which are classified as solo mobs. I use Cheap Shot quite a bit in soloing, and this is going to adversely affect my gameplay as a soloer. <div></div>

[Telka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>They're reducing the duration on a solo ability, namely Cheap Shot. It doesn't work on heroics, has only 2 seconds on ^ and will only get the full 6 seconds that is being reduced to 4 seconds on no arrow or down arrow mobs, which are classified as solo mobs. <BR><BR>I use Cheap Shot quite a bit in soloing, and this is going to adversely affect my gameplay as a soloer. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>6 to 4 seconds means your gona have 1 less CA while the mob is stunned it soudnt make ground breaking changes to your solo ability

[Hammer4]

Is it really a reduction?  You're getting a guaranteed 4 seconds instead of a maybe 6 seconds, and if you're using cheap shot to get backstab attacks, don't some of them cause stun as well?  I think getting a 6 second guaranteed stun on a heroic mob every 20 seconds would definitely make heroic mobs very soloable.

[TaleraRis]

It's a 6 second guaranteed stun now only on solo mobs. It doesn't work on heroics. And this change is just reducing the duration of that stun on solo mobs. No, none of my attacks have stuns. This and the Point Blank Shot AA are all the stuns we rangers get. <div></div>

[HaCkHaCkER]

what type of nerfage are you talking about, this game is very solo friendly, i have, all on test, a 63conj31sage, 39illu, 32warlock, 27fury, 17sk 21provie, 6gaurdian 10outfitter. i soloed almost all of those. and have not had a single issue since the tu24 pushthe only class i dont have is a scout class, that is because i know atleast 6 lvl 40+ scouts that solo absolutely fine.there is no nerfing to soloers here. just a change in tactics. no more chain stunning, even while solo it was possible.

[Hammer4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>It's a 6 second guaranteed stun now only on solo mobs. It doesn't work on heroics. And this change is just reducing the duration of that stun on solo mobs.<BR><BR>No, none of my attacks have stuns. This and the Point Blank Shot AA are all the stuns we rangers get.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*shrug*  My Assassin can get off two backstab/stealth drops and two assassinates (stealth required back shots) in six seconds.  Dumping that kind of damage into a mob every time Cheap Shot comes up makes it a lot easier to drop heroics.  Admittedly, after the opening barrage the reuse timers start to get in the way, but you're still getting to use all your available high damage attacks very often. 

[Snublefot]

<P>As far as I know cheap shot on 1 arrow and greater doesnt change. Its stil 2 seconds. The only thing that change is 4s on non-arrow or lower. And yes, it hits solo gameplay where it should hit it. On solo mobs. </P> <P>And thats where most of the changes in this patch hits. Solo ability for casual players. Good luck on that SOE...</P>

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HaCkHaCkER wrote:<BR>what type of nerfage are you talking about, <BR><BR>there is no nerfing to soloers here. just a change in tactics. no more chain stunning, even while solo it was possible.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It certanly is going to make all of my brigands positional attacks more difficult to use, being handed a 45% reduction in stun timers. Also the nerf to necromancer tank pets makes already iffy aggro control that bit worse - SOE need to pay attention to the tank pets and fix the existing bugs.</P> <P>This is very much a nerf to scout / summoner soloability (I am NOT talking about blue ^^^ - which require something a little different than going toe to toe with the pet, or linked stun).<BR></P>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <DIV>More to the point why do developers <FONT color=#ccff00 size=4>NERF</FONT>???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason they nerf is that it is the easiest and fastest way to change code to conform with their idea of balance. Other methods of balancing -- redesign encounters, change attributes and position of mobs, AI etc. all require more time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#cc33ff>SOOOO------ they take the quickest route -- NERF - and the hell with the players and what they think!! </FONT></EM></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am so sick of this argument that DEVs NERF because it is the easiest thing to do. It has been said time and time again they nerf when they haven't to because a lot of the times it is the best solution and makes more sense. If some classes or abilities are to powerful it is much better for the game to nerf those then try and raise everything else. Trying to do otherwise will in the end just cause more problems.</P> <P>I don't mind hearing complaints about why you feel a nerf wasn't needed or why it was to much. I just hate the argument that they only Nerf because it is easier.<BR></P>

[Kri]

<blockquote><hr>missionarymarr wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div>More to the point why do developers <font size="4" color="#ccff00">NERF</font>???</div><div> </div><div>The reason they nerf is that it is the easiest and fastest way to change code to conform with their idea of balance. Other methods of balancing -- redesign encounters, change attributes and position of mobs, AI etc. all require more time.</div><div> </div><div><em><font color="#cc33ff">SOOOO------ they take the quickest route -- NERF - and the hell with the players and what they think!! </font></em></div><hr></blockquote><p>I am so sick of this argument that DEVs NERF because it is the easiest thing to do. It has been said time and time again they nerf when they haven't to because a lot of the times it is the best solution and makes more sense. If some classes or abilities are to powerful it is much better for the game to nerf those then try and raise everything else. Trying to do otherwise will in the end just cause more problems.</p><p>I don't mind hearing complaints about why you feel a nerf wasn't needed or why it was to much. I just hate the argument that they only Nerf because it is easier.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree. Long term it's better to scrape off the biggest peaks (i.e. nerf) rather than constantly trying to raise the base level.

[wino]

yeah everyone likes nerfs as long as its not the class they are playing....  dont hate on others just because they are frustarted  when they get nerfed cause if it  happens to you and eventually it will  ypu more than likely wont  like it...<div></div>

[KBern]

<P>They are dumbing down the game want it to be more like WoW, remember SWG SOE!!1!one!~</P> <P> </P> <P>(Sorry, sarcasm, but I wanted to post it before someone else does lol)</P> <P> </P> <P>We all lived through LU13, we will live through this too.</P>

[Drulak]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krith wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>Maroger wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>More to the point why do developers <FONT color=#ccff00 size=4>NERF</FONT>???</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>The reason they nerf is that it is the easiest and fastest way to change code to conform with their idea of balance. Other methods of balancing -- redesign encounters, change attributes and position of mobs, AI etc. all require more time.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#cc33ff>SOOOO------ they take the quickest route -- NERF - and the hell with the players and what they think!! </FONT></EM></DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I am so sick of this argument that DEVs NERF because it is the easiest thing to do. It has been said time and time again they nerf when they haven't to because a lot of the times it is the best solution and makes more sense. If some classes or abilities are to powerful it is much better for the game to nerf those then try and raise everything else. Trying to do otherwise will in the end just cause more problems.</P><BR> <P>I don't mind hearing complaints about why you feel a nerf wasn't needed or why it was to much. <FONT color=#ff0000>I just hate the argument that they only Nerf because it is easier.<BR></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I agree. Long term it's better to scrape off the biggest peaks (i.e. nerf) rather than constantly trying to raise the base level.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I think you will find that they get called nerf's because they do not "Dumb Down" the strongest , they hit it hard and make it weak.</P> <P>Yes it is all relative ,  But taking a class from no1 spot to no6 spot in one hit , is always going to get back up and be called a NERF.</P> <P>"Dumbing down" would be better , but it's obviously not as easy to do and hitting one class hard , and that's why you will get people stating that its easier to Nerf.</P> <P> </P> <P>From your statement about hateing people saying that they nerf because its easier , I take it that you have never had one of the nerfed classes then.</P> <P>What a silly thing to Hate ????</P> <P> </P> <P>From a guardians point of view , they nerfed us hard , and yes it was easier to do than to dumb us down.  We have since been brought up , but thats taken time and more coding , so was it easier to nerf us in the first place , of course it was.</P> <P> </P>

[Igu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HaCkHaCkER wrote:<BR>what type of nerfage are you talking about, <BR><BR>this game is very solo friendly, i have, all on test, a 63conj31sage, 39illu, 32warlock, 27fury, 17sk 21provie, 6gaurdian 10outfitter. i soloed almost all of those. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the issue is whether you will still be able to do that AFTER LU24.<BR>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Igu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HaCkHaCkER wrote:<BR>what type of nerfage are you talking about, <BR><BR>this game is very solo friendly, i have, all on test, a 63conj31sage, 39illu, 32warlock, 27fury, 17sk 21provie, 6gaurdian 10outfitter. i soloed almost all of those. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the issue is whether you will still be able to do that AFTER LU24.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you read carefully, you would see that he plays on the test server, so he is dealing with LU24 currently.

[Igu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lord Montague wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>If you read carefully, you would see that he plays on the test server, so he is dealing with LU24 currently.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He leveled a Conjuror to 63 since LU24 was put on Test? That is impressive, :smileysurprised:

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Igu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lord Montague wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>If you read carefully, you would see that he plays on the test server, so he is dealing with LU24 currently.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He leveled a Conjuror to 63 since LU24 was put on Test? That is impressive, :smileysurprised:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nitpicking a bit much are we?  Guess we misunderstood your argument...I thought the argument was "we can solo now, will we be able to solo after LU24"?  And what he is saying is yes.  :smileytongue:<BR>

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammer4 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>It's a 6 second guaranteed stun now only on solo mobs. It doesn't work on heroics. And this change is just reducing the duration of that stun on solo mobs.<BR><BR>No, none of my attacks have stuns. This and the Point Blank Shot AA are all the stuns we rangers get.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*shrug*  My Assassin can get off two backstab/stealth drops and two assassinates (stealth required back shots) in six seconds.  Dumping that kind of damage into a mob every time Cheap Shot comes up makes it a lot easier to drop heroics.  Admittedly, after the opening barrage the reuse timers start to get in the way, but you're still getting to use all your available high damage attacks very often. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can't use Cheap Shot on heroics. You don't get 6 seconds on heroics. It doesn't work on them. On ^ mobs it lasts a grand total of 2 seconds.</P> <P>I will say this again. It does NOT work on heroics. It only gives you 6 second duration on solo mobs.</P> <P>I can Cheap Shot a solo mob, get behind it and stealth, backstab, stealth again, and get off emberstrike in six seconds. Shave 2 seconds off that and I'm probably only going to get the first set of stealthing with backstab in. Given that our other stun, Point Blank Shot, is having duration lessened as well, I'm going to have less chance to keep the mob at a distance. Ranger damage comes from keeping the mob at a distance, either through snaring and kiting, or using our 2 available stuns and roots (I only have one at my level) to get some distance so we can get our ranged attacks with required distances off.</P> <P>Our melee skills are sub-part, but our melee skills can be sub-part. Lessening our ability to keep a mob at a distance using the small amount of skills we have in our arsenal is where the complaint arises, especially as the given reason was to deal with grouping. No ranger is going to use Cheap Shot in groups unless they're trying to continue an HO and even then it's better to use the Elude line if we have to use anything.</P>

[LordTwist]

<P> My problem is I left the game months ago, and just came back. I could not play my previous Ranger due to the massive changes to his skills, abilities, etc.. He was completely new to me, and I had no idea what anything he had was.  So I took the easy way out and built another class, I played a Monk, An SK, a Warden, A Pally, and a Assasin up to the early 20's.</P> <P>  While the Assassin was the most fun to me for numerous reasons, it is also the hardest class. While looking around at stuff I stumbled across the Kill vs Death ratios on all of my guys, all of them but the Assassin is around 60....my Assassin is at 10....</P> <P>  You can not tell me that this class should be nerfed for any reason. I may still be learning how to play this class, and I assume there is a trick I have not figured out yet if this class is so almighty powerful as a solo class, but so far the only thing I have found this class good at when it comes to solo play is death. The scout classes are a challenge and I love a challenge. This nerf on my one and only stun, I think will make my challenge a complete impossability. I will either have to start playing with groups, which is very difficult for me due to the fact that my family comes first, and I have to leave abruptly many times, or I have to abandon my favorite class, and go back to being a fighter.....</P> <P>  I prefer being able to play my assassin, but if this nerf makes it too much harder to play, I may abandon the game again before I go back to playing a fighter.   </P> <P>  Why is a fighter easier to solo with? Because the same mob that would normally kill an assasin in a few hits can beat on the same level SK for hours while the SK beats the tar out of it and heals himself with reactive spells.  My SK at 23 can solo mobs that my Assassin can barely hurt solo.</P> <P>   So I assume that this nerf is either due to the assassins over powering in either group play, or PvP? If it is a PvP thing, then limit that nerf to the PvP servers. </P>

[Bassist]

<div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:<div></div><p>You can't use Cheap Shot on heroics. You don't get 6 seconds on heroics. It doesn't work on them. On ^ mobs it lasts a grand total of 2 seconds.</p> <p>I will say this again. It does NOT work on heroics. It only gives you 6 second duration on solo mobs.</p><hr></blockquote>Cheap shot works just fine on heroics, just as a ^ solo.  It doesn't work on epics.  I use it when I get jumped to get off my mezz.</div>

[EtoilePirate]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Hammer4 wrote:<div></div>Is it really a reduction?  You're getting a guaranteed 4 seconds instead of a maybe 6 seconds, and if you're using cheap shot to get backstab attacks, don't some of them cause stun as well?  I think getting a 6 second guaranteed stun on a heroic mob every 20 seconds would definitely make heroic mobs very soloable.<hr></blockquote>As far as I know, Cheap Shot is the only skill I have anywhere that causes a stun, period.  I do have a stifle but that's not quite the same.  Also it (Cheap Shot, sorry, unclear the first time) doesn't land or stick on ^, ^^, or ^^^ mobs in any worthwhile way as a general rule.That said, I'm soloing perfectly well since the change.  Blowing through my writs as fast as ever.  All the no-arrow mobs are just as killable as they've ever been, the green ^ mobs are easy, and I can even do the blue ^ mobs most of the time so long as I'm not stupid.  (One I can handle.  Three... not so much.)</div><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[HaCkHaCkER]

some people nitpick way to much. i still solo most of the time on test, except for raid nights and playing with my friends. i have soloed my conj on a nightly basis, working on heroics even con or lower in all of KoS or yellow solo mobs all over the place. so yes as long as you are not trying to solo conblue and sometimes congreen ^^^ mobs you will be able to solo just fine.i dont have a necro so im not sure about them, but with my tank pet at ad3 i have not noticed a major difference in aggro control, pet life, or abilities. i am telling you from the perspective of a guy who plays exclusively on test, soloing is fine for all my toons and has not changed in a way that calls for all of the complaining

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HaCkHaCkER wrote:<BR>some people nitpick way to much. i still solo most of the time on test, except for raid nights and playing with my friends.<BR><BR>i have soloed my conj on a nightly basis, working on heroics even con or lower in all of KoS or yellow solo mobs all over the place. so yes as long as you are not trying to solo conblue and sometimes congreen ^^^ mobs you will be able to solo just fine.<BR><BR>i dont have a necro so im not sure about them, but with my tank pet at ad3 i have not noticed a major difference in aggro control, pet life, or abilities.<BR><BR>i am telling you from the perspective of a guy who plays exclusively on test, soloing is fine for all my toons and has not changed in a way that calls for all of the complaining<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The major nerf in my opinion is the one to swarm pets -- really hurts my Necro. Basically they are lasting less time and doing less damage. That is the spell that really saves my necros life when doing heroics so I am really annoyed and angry about this. SOunds like EQ1 all over again --- nerf, nerf, nerf -- until the customers leave!!</P> <P> And I don't like the across the board increase time between casts for all the mage classes. They try to not make it look so bad by saying they are going from 45s to 60s -- but that is <FONT color=#cc33ff>ONE MINUTE </FONT>only they just don't want to say that as it really looks like a major nerf whereas people may not notice the 60s.</P> <P>Developers are basically trying to pull the wool over eyes with that one -- they are too cowardly to say that the new time between reuse in <FONT color=#99cc00>ONE MINUTE.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcccc>Don't foregt the poll (for whatever it is worth ) indicates a majority of players <FONT size=4>PREFER TO SOLO!!<BR></FONT></FONT></P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <DIV>More to the point why do developers <FONT color=#ccff00 size=4>NERF</FONT>???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason they nerf is that it is the easiest and fastest way to change code to conform with their idea of balance. Other methods of balancing -- redesign encounters, change attributes and position of mobs, AI etc. all require more time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#cc33ff>SOOOO------ they take the quickest route -- NERF - and the hell with the players and what they think!! </FONT></EM></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>I am so sick of this argument that DEVs NERF because it is the easiest thing to do. It has been said time and time again they nerf when they haven't to because a lot of the times it is the best solution and makes more sense. If some classes or abilities are to powerful it is much better for the game to nerf those then try and raise everything else. Trying to do otherwise will in the end just cause more problems.</EM></P> <P><EM>I don't mind hearing complaints about why you feel a nerf wasn't needed or why it was to much. I just hate the argument that they only Nerf because it is easier.<BR></EM></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nerfing is <FONT color=#ffcc66>ALWAYS EASIER TO DO</FONT>! It requires less testing and merely changes to some tables -- doing it right by dealing with the mob AI is always more time consuming and costs the company more money.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff size=4><EM>DEVELOPERS ALWAYS TAKE THE QUICKEST AND EASIEST ROUTE TO A FIX - NOT THE BEST ONE JUST THE EASIEST ONE!!<BR></EM></FONT></P>

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hammer4 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TaleraRis wrote:It's a 6 second guaranteed stun now only on solo mobs. It doesn't work on heroics. And this change is just reducing the duration of that stun on solo mobs.No, none of my attacks have stuns. This and the Point Blank Shot AA are all the stuns we rangers get. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>*shrug*  My Assassin can get off two backstab/stealth drops and two assassinates (stealth required back shots) in six seconds.  Dumping that kind of damage into a mob every time Cheap Shot comes up makes it a lot easier to drop heroics.  Admittedly, after the opening barrage the reuse timers start to get in the way, but you're still getting to use all your available high damage attacks very often. <hr></blockquote>Two backstabs/stealth drops and two assassinates?  Wow you're the god of assassins.  On a heroic you're lucky if you can get a 2s stun out of cheapshot... 1s/interupt is more common.  Even on solo mobs I can't remember the last time I actually got more then 3-4s of stun time.  Even having the full 6s I would have a hard time dumping 4 CA into it in that period of time... my swashie is less stealth and positional, and even on him I can't dump 4 CA in a single cheap shot even when they're all up and waiting, and I don't even have an assassin or swashie on test, this is with current live game.  It's quite obvious you don't have an assassin or most likely a scout of any type to anyone who does have one.  Don't talk about things you obviously don't have any clue about.</div>

[LordTwist]

<P> Has anyone noticed the two people in this thread that are defending the "nerf" and telling everyone scouts will be able to solo in the update, have either admitted that they don't play a scout, and or, don't have a scout listed in the numerous toons listed in their sigs.....</P> <P> </P> <P> Seems kinda odd, the ones telling everyone scouts will be able to solo, are not scouts....</P>

[EtoilePirate]

<div><blockquote><hr>LordTwisted wrote:<div></div> <p> Has anyone noticed the two people in this thread that are defending the "nerf" and telling everyone scouts will be able to solo in the update, have either admitted that they don't play a scout, and or, don't have a scout listed in the numerous toons listed in their sigs.....</p> <p> Seems kinda odd, the ones telling everyone scouts will be able to solo, are not scouts....</p><hr></blockquote>I've said twice that scouts can solo just fine.  And I don't know what part of you're sig my reading, but I'm a 68.5 Assassin (and I also have a level 14 swashie, if it makes you feel better).</div>

[Arondur]

<P>**EtolePB wrote</P> <P><BR>I've said twice that scouts can solo just fine.  And I don't know what part of you're sig my reading, but I'm a 68.5 Assassin (and I also have a level 14 swashie, if it makes you feel better).<BR></P> <P>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P> </P> <P>Would it not be more accurate to say Some Scouts can Solo? </P> <P>You Play a Assassin and Swashie on Test, Can we hear from the other Scout Classes on Soloablity?  Like how well does a Troub solo without Charm and Lullybye?</P> <P> </P> <P>Arondur 65 Conj</P> <P>Wylder 51 Troub </P> <P>Neither on test but both worried</P>

[Zeral498]

<blockquote><hr>Caladwen wrote:<div></div> <p>**EtolePB wrote</p> <p>I've said twice that scouts can solo just fine.  And I don't know what part of you're sig my reading, but I'm a 68.5 Assassin (and I also have a level 14 swashie, if it makes you feel better).</p> <p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p> <p>Would it not be more accurate to say Some Scouts can Solo? </p> <p>You Play a Assassin and Swashie on Test, Can we hear from the other Scout Classes on Soloablity?  Like how well does a Troub solo without Charm and Lullybye?</p> <p>Arondur 65 Conj</p> <p>Wylder 51 Troub </p> <p>Neither on test but both worried</p><hr></blockquote> Troubs still solo pretty much the same as long as you are consistent in what you kill. I never actively used charm when I soloed because it just screwed me up when the charm broke. Only really used it when I had to take on tough encounters for quests. The only problem with the mez/charm nerf is that our survivability -sucks- now. When I used to get adds soloing, I'd pop a quiz mez and that would take care of it. Now, I mez and I have to quickly finish or else I get beat on by 2 mobs. I used to be able to take down harder encounters by unleashing all my CA's and then mezzing, resting, and re-leashing my CA's. I can't do that anymore. So basically without charm and the mez we can't take down mobs like an even ^. However, solo mobs without any arrows, are still easy like before. The nerf in the mez hurt me the most though. I was very dependent on it when I was soloing. The 20 second re-cast time really screws you up - you're basically screwed if you get one then 1 add.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

I'd like to hear from Test rangers as well who soloed using Cheap Shot and their melee skills, instead of kiting. These changes aren't going to affect kiting, so reports from rangers who use that tactic aren't going to be useful in gauging how much trouble this is going to cause. <div></div>

[StealthM0]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't a nerf to soloers who solo, solo mobs.  They will continue on killing these solo mobs just fine.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually no they wont. The days of the soloing scout are drawing near. Cheap shot is a very important ability in the scouts lineup. Nerfing its duration was a HUGE mistake. Now that mob that your 18 assassin was fighting before that could be dropped in 5-10 seconds using cheap shot, stealth, rear facing melee attack......will now own you as you go to get in position and lag causes the cheap shot to wear off before you EVER get near position to use the other two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a sad sad day coming soon. I already pre-cancelled after playing on test a few hours, thorny trap and cheap shot are a good bit of the soloing rangers lineup. The duration changes made both not practical for use anymore. Might as well just give us two new ca's cause those two are garbage now.</DIV>

[Belaythien]

<div>As a Dirge I can tell you that it IS a big nerf to my solo abilities. As mentioned quite often Cheap Shot get's reduced by 33%. That means I will get one side positional attack less every cheap shot. That alone is quite alot of damage gone.Additionally they nerfed my biggest nuke that wasn't even a control spell (so much about sneaking some other nerfs in<span>:smileyindifferent:</span>). With an increased timer AND reduced damage I will loose over 50% damage from that nuke ... possibly 66%.Dirges are a bad soloing class already. Somehow I actually envy the soloing capabilities of my Priest because I can kill higher mobs. And Priest damage is a joke. At least he can heal himself but my Dirge does very little damage for a Scout and doesn't take much damage.Tell ME as a Dirge that there is no soloing nerf and I'll laugh at you <span>:smileysad:</span></div>

[Maroger]

<DIV>Cany any necros out there tell me how much this nerf will hurt necro soloing?  I love playing my iksar necro as I can solo just about everything I want - I do die a little if I lose my pet because of the crappy heal for pets, but nevertheless Necro is a great character for soloers but willl it still be after LU24.</DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<div><blockquote><hr>StealthM0de wrote:<div> </div> <div> </div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Pinski wrote: <div>This isn't a nerf to soloers who solo, solo mobs.  They will continue on killing these solo mobs just fine.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Actually no they wont. The days of the soloing scout are drawing near. Cheap shot is a very important ability in the scouts lineup. Nerfing its duration was a HUGE mistake. Now that mob that your 18 assassin was fighting before that could be dropped in 5-10 seconds using cheap shot, stealth, rear facing melee attack......will now own you as you go to get in position and lag causes the cheap shot to wear off before you EVER get near position to use the other two.</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>Really, assassins are fine.  I promise.  Ditto swashies, as best I can tell (mine's only 14).  Rangers I admit I don't know about.  And the rangers I know on Test are mostly unlikely ever to read this thread.  Then again, I see them soloing all the time, so it can't be completely broken.Cheap shot, at 4 seconds, is still MASSIVELY more usable than it was before LU13.  You want to talk about assassins unable to solo?  Talk about the first year of the game.  Against any reasonable solo mob (so that's not counting no-arrow mobs higher than yellow, or ^ mobs higher than blue) a competent assassin will still do just fine.</div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:<div>Cheap shot, at 4 seconds, is still MASSIVELY more usable than it was before LU13.  You want to talk about assassins unable to solo?  Talk about the first year of the game.  Against any reasonable solo mob (so that's not counting no-arrow mobs higher than yellow, or ^ mobs higher than blue) a competent assassin will still do just fine.</div><hr></blockquote>   My first character was a troubador and I used Cheap Shot a lot the first year of the game to solo mobs. As I remember it then, it even worked on heroics to some extent, although the problem there was any damage would break it. 4 seconds on Cheap Shot is not going to be useful for myself as a soloing ranger. The root on my Lunging line right now is 4 seconds. I can cast that while moving back, get off one ranged CA, and then the mob has started moving toward me again. It's still not *to* me, but because anything but Point Blank Shot requires it being 5m away, I don't get another shot in and get the "Too close!" message.   Right now I use Cheap Shot to get behind a mob and get off our pitiful melee positional attacks. I say pitiful because our melee skills are sub-part. I'm fine with them being sub-par. I mostly use them once the mob is to me, since my tools for keeping it away are exhausted, and mainly to finish up the work I've already done getting it down in health before it reached me. 4 seconds will mean 2 more seconds the mob can beat on me without my being able to put some distance away, and it means less damage because I won't be able to utilize the positional melee attacks we have.It will affect ranger soloing, for rangers who do not kite or in those areas we cannot kite.<div></div>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't a nerf to soloers who solo, solo mobs.  They will continue on killing these solo mobs just fine.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How exactly is nerfing an ability that is only used in solo play against solo mobs NOT a nerf to soloing? /boggle</P> <P>Granted, no, this will not make it impossible to solo. It will just make it a greater pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. But yes, it IS a nerf to soloers who solo against solo mobs. I can't fathom the logic in this statement at all. Go back and read the test notes. It's talking about reducing the duration against solo mobs. Why isn't it talking about the duration against heroics or ^ mobs? Oh, because it BREAKS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY ON ANYTHING WITH AN UP ARROW. </P> <P>Good grief, people.</P>

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Cheap shot, at 4 seconds, is still MASSIVELY more usable than it was before LU13.  You want to talk about assassins unable to solo?  Talk about the first year of the game.  Against any reasonable solo mob (so that's not counting no-arrow mobs higher than yellow, or ^ mobs higher than blue) a competent assassin will still do just fine</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Hmmm....  Cheap Shot before LU13 had a 7 second duration and that was on solo and heroic mobs...  </P> <P>LU13 changed it to 2 seconds on heroic and 6 seconds on solo...  Cheap Shot also scaled with level rather than using the AP-Master system (meaning that a person with AD3 could not prevent someone with AP1 from using it).....  And the biggest change to soloability was Offensive and Defensive stances were added (excluding Bards, Priests and Casters)</P> <P>LU24 changes it to 2 seconds on heroics and 4 seconds on solo</P> <P>Ok, let's talk about the first year of the game and soloing as an Assassin....  I started playing when the game was released....  Created a Wood Elf in Qeynos and betrayed to Freeport to become an Assassin....  I leveled faster than your average player, so finding groups was hard....  That caused me to solo quite often...</P> <P>There were not higher level people that could mentor down, because there wasn't any higher level people at the time....   My gear consisted of what I was able to loot....  tradeskill crafted goods was non-existant....     AP2s is what was used, because no one could make AP4 or AD3 spells, Masters were pretty much non-existant and the odds of actually finding an AD1 that you could use was extreamly low....  </P> <P>Know what the tatic was for soloing??  Beat the mob down before it could beat you down....  Start with either stealth attack or with ranged attack...  Use Cheap Shot, get behind the mob and get off as many attacks as possible....</P> <P>What is the difference between then and now??  Nothing, except that the duration of Cheap Shot keeps getting reduced making it more difficult for the solo person....  Defensive stances were added to melee classes (excluding Bards) which made soloing a little easier....  As a scout you are always in Offensive stance except when soloing or trying to pass as a makeshift tank when none are available...  Reducing Cheap Shot from 6 seconds on solo encounters to 4 seconds on solo encounters ONLY effect scouts that are soloing and has absolutly nothing to do with being able to lockdown a heroic mob in a group setting....  The other thing this has a huge effect on is PvP, but SoE said before that changes were not going to bleed over because of PvP, yet this is exactly what is happening... </P> <P>PvP fights last alot shorter time than PvE, thus a 6 second stun would go a long way in locking down a PvP fight....  In fact, look at what they are nerfing and how it effects PvP.... All these changes will make HUGE difference in being able to stun lock PvP fights.....  So, PvE play is being nerfed because stuns are too powerful in PvP play.... None of these changes are beneficial in PvE, not even the ability to mez a Epic for a few seconds, but will make a day and night difference in PvP...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin /  Parody - 63 Troubador</P> <P> </P>

[Toskrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P>What is the difference between then and now??  Nothing, except that the duration of Cheap Shot keeps getting reduced making it more difficult for the solo person....  Defensive stances were added to melee classes (excluding Bards) which made soloing a little easier....  As a scout you are always in Offensive stance except when soloing or trying to pass as a makeshift tank when none are available...  Reducing Cheap Shot from 6 seconds on solo encounters to 4 seconds on solo encounters ONLY effect scouts that are soloing and has absolutly nothing to do with being able to lockdown a heroic mob in a group setting....  The other thing this has a huge effect on is PvP, but SoE said before that changes were not going to bleed over because of PvP, yet this is exactly what is happening... </P> <P>PvP fights last alot shorter time than PvE, thus a 6 second stun would go a long way in locking down a PvP fight....  In fact, look at what they are nerfing and how it effects PvP.... All these changes will make HUGE difference in being able to stun lock PvP fights.....  So, PvE play is being nerfed because stuns are too powerful in PvP play.... None of these changes are beneficial in PvE, not even the ability to mez a Epic for a few seconds, but will make a day and night difference in PvP...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin /  Parody - 63 Troubador</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's obivous that you don't know the mechanics of PvP.  Cheap Shot currently lasts 2 seconds in PvP, not 6.  The proposed LU24 changes will have very little effect on PvP, since the timers are different depending on whether the target is a mob or a player.  The timers are being lowered only on the PvE side of combat.  You are just using PvP as a convenient scapegoat.<BR>

[Despak]

Better start trying to laugh then Belaythien.Not had a problem after an hour of rethinking my tactics. Still happily soloing in Bonemire, Barren Sky and SoS.

[Ydiss]

Prior to LU13, and some ways before that, some scouts could kite named heroics... So when SOE "nerfed" that all the scouts got upset and lamented the end of the scout solo era.Of course those that didn't quit the game right then went on to adapt and overcome.As they will do now. Well, the ones that matter, at any rate.<div></div>

[Braw]

<DIV>Alot of the content people are soloing right now isent suppose to be soloed at all, why do u think you should be able to solo epic two arrows? that was meant for groups not a overpowered stunlocking class like bruisers and monks or a overpowered dps class like summoners</DIV>

[Rominian]

Just poking a bit of fun, so dont get angry, but was it hard to solo that level 10 outfitter?:smileyvery-happy:  Many solo players are getting hit hard, as well as the enchanters out there.  If you think chanters are happy about this, guess again.  Our already pitiful dmg output is being reduced yet again.../sigh.  There will always be people that take their class to the limit of its ability, I think these are the folks who are most upset with what is going on in LU24.  I agree that rather than actually fix things to balance classes, SOE seems to want to take everyone else down to the lowest common denominator.  Personally Im glad that necros and conjurors are getting a hit, its about time!!  But I bet the conjurors and necros have a different opinion :smileywink:  Mostly I dont like these things cause it makes you have to change the way you have been playing yet again, and yet again, and oh here comes another fix so yet again.  Ever heard the old addage "it pays to do it right the first time" ?

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brawly wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alot of the content people are soloing right now isent suppose to be soloed at all, why do u think you should be able to solo epic two arrows? that was meant for groups not a overpowered stunlocking class like bruisers and monks or a overpowered dps class like summoners</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes indeedy, my cheap shot, point blank shot, and root sure help me solo lots of epic mobs. Why, people are soloing epic mobs left and right in this game with such stunning abilitie--oh. Yeah. Wait. <STRONG>There's that little problem of stuns not working on epic mobs. </STRONG></P> <P>Yessiree, we're sure soloing epics with stuns that can't land on epics. :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Goemoe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<p> That is the spell that really saves my necros life when doing heroics so I am really annoyed and angry about this. SOunds like EQ1 all over again --- nerf, nerf, nerf -- until the customers leave!! </p><hr></blockquote>Tells it all. Heroics are for groups. Most class can solo low level green heroics, which is ok to solve a quest, but should not be useful for pure leveling imho. I solo most of the time myself (conjurer 46, monk 34, and some other) and don't like the changes to the group aggro hate gain of my tank pet as well. But I know it has been to easy to kill groups before and I have quit playing DAoC because Mythic always <b>raised</b> certain classes out of fear someone would wine for nothing. Sometimes it is much better to nerf one class than to raise a lot of other classes. Read the thread, it is mostly you complaining for something your class (or my, since I enjoy my conjurer solo every day) should not be able to do at all. It is not a common problem to this patch. Conjurers and Necros have been the strongest and easiest playable soloer (beside one or two other classes). It has only be a matter of time they get more attention, because there are always people wining that another class is to strong or the own class got nerfed<span> :smileytongue: Better nerf one or two, than raise the base (as someone in here told before <span>:smileywink:</span> ) Goemoe </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Goemoe on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:11 AM</span>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brawly wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alot of the content people are soloing right now isent suppose to be soloed at all, why do u think you should be able to solo epic two arrows? that was meant for groups not a overpowered stunlocking class like bruisers and monks <FONT color=#ff0033>or a overpowered dps class like summoners</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh I thought we were soloing even con heroic and yellow heroics according to most peoples fantasy world. Now we can solo Epic 2 up mobs too? Wow I had no idea I was that powerful.<BR>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Suraklin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brawly wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alot of the content people are soloing right now isent suppose to be soloed at all, why do u think you should be able to solo epic two arrows? that was meant for groups not a overpowered stunlocking class like bruisers and monks <FONT color=#ff0033>or a overpowered dps class like summoners</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh I thought we were soloing even con heroic and yellow heroics according to most peoples fantasy world. Now we can solo Epic 2 up mobs too? Wow I had no idea I was that powerful.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, with your overpowering stuns, Suraklin. You know, the sort that can work on epic mobs. We know you're hiding those under that pointy hat!

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telka wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>They're reducing the duration on a solo ability, namely Cheap Shot. It doesn't work on heroics, has only 2 seconds on ^ and will only get the full 6 seconds that is being reduced to 4 seconds on no arrow or down arrow mobs, which are classified as solo mobs. <BR><BR>I use Cheap Shot quite a bit in soloing, and this is going to adversely affect my gameplay as a soloer. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>6 to 4 seconds means your gona have 1 less CA while the mob is stunned it soudnt make ground breaking changes to your solo ability<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i used to solo fine with cheap shot at 6 seconds. then they added a root that lasts 4 seconds for a total of 10 seconds where the mob isn't hitting you. now they take away 2 seconds leaving scouts with 8 seconds. i can solo with 6 no problem and i sure as heck can solo with 8

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordTwisted wrote:<BR> <P> Has anyone noticed the two people in this thread that are defending the "nerf" and telling everyone scouts will be able to solo in the update, have either admitted that they don't play a scout, and or, don't have a scout listed in the numerous toons listed in their sigs.....</P> <P> </P> <P> Seems kinda odd, the ones telling everyone scouts will be able to solo, are not scouts....</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i have a 53 ranger and i'll be able to solo.

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't a nerf to soloers who solo, solo mobs.  They will continue on killing these solo mobs just fine.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually no they wont. The days of the soloing scout are drawing near. Cheap shot is a very important ability in the scouts lineup. Nerfing its duration was a HUGE mistake. Now that mob that your 18 assassin was fighting before that could be dropped in 5-10 seconds using cheap shot, stealth, rear facing melee attack......will now own you as you go to get in position and lag causes the cheap shot to wear off before you EVER get near position to use the other two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a sad sad day coming soon. I already pre-cancelled after playing on test a few hours, thorny trap and cheap shot are a good bit of the soloing rangers lineup. The duration changes made both not practical for use anymore. Might as well just give us two new ca's cause those two are garbage now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i soloed fine without thorny trap and i hardly use it now and like i said in a previous post i can solo with 8 seconds where the mob cant hit me.

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammer4 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>It's a 6 second guaranteed stun now only on solo mobs. It doesn't work on heroics. And this change is just reducing the duration of that stun on solo mobs.<BR><BR>No, none of my attacks have stuns. This and the Point Blank Shot AA are all the stuns we rangers get.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*shrug*  My Assassin can get off two backstab/stealth drops and two assassinates (stealth required back shots) in six seconds.  Dumping that kind of damage into a mob every time Cheap Shot comes up makes it a lot easier to drop heroics.  Admittedly, after the opening barrage the reuse timers start to get in the way, but you're still getting to use all your available high damage attacks very often. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can't use Cheap Shot on heroics. You don't get 6 seconds on heroics. It doesn't work on them. On ^ mobs it lasts a grand total of 2 seconds.</P> <P>I will say this again. It does NOT work on heroics. It only gives you 6 second duration on solo mobs.</P> <P>I can Cheap Shot a solo mob, get behind it and stealth, backstab, stealth again, and get off emberstrike in six seconds. Shave 2 seconds off that and I'm probably only going to get the first set of stealthing with backstab in. Given that our other stun, Point Blank Shot, is having duration lessened as well, I'm going to have less chance to keep the mob at a distance. Ranger damage comes from keeping the mob at a distance, either through snaring and kiting, or using our 2 available stuns and roots (I only have one at my level) to get some distance so we can get our ranged attacks with required distances off.</P> <P>Our melee skills are sub-part, but our melee skills can be sub-part. Lessening our ability to keep a mob at a distance using the small amount of skills we have in our arsenal is where the complaint arises, especially as the given reason was to deal with grouping. No ranger is going to use Cheap Shot in groups unless they're trying to continue an HO and even then it's better to use the Elude line if we have to use anything.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you're forgetting about the 4 second root CA. cheap shot get behind use the CA that has damage and stealts you. use the high damage stealth attack followed by the root CA while moving backwards. when it lands stop and get off 2 archery CAs. if you still cant kill a solo mob then sorry. that's plenty of time to kill something for me.

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bassist wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <P>You can't use Cheap Shot on heroics. You don't get 6 seconds on heroics. It doesn't work on them. On ^ mobs it lasts a grand total of 2 seconds.</P> <P>I will say this again. It does NOT work on heroics. It only gives you 6 second duration on solo mobs.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Cheap shot works just fine on heroics, just as a ^ solo.  It doesn't work on epics.  I use it when I get jumped to get off my mezz.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok there's some confusion on what cheap shot works on and duration so here's the breakdown</P> <P>vvv - 6 seconds</P> <P>vv - 6 seconds</P> <P>v - 6 seconds</P> <P>even con - 6 seconds</P> <P>even con heroic - 6 seconds</P> <P>^ - 2 seconds</P> <P>^^ - 2 seconds</P> <P>^^^ - 2 seconds</P> <P>epics - not at all</P>

[TaleraRis]

<P>I've noticed no appreciable stun when I try to hit ^^ if I get jumped, etc. </P> <P>Besides that, 2 seconds is pretty much worthless. Our fastest casting CA without figuring in APs is what, 1.5 seconds? That means we have .5 seconds to get into 5m range and get the CA off and if the mob runs into range during that time cause the stun has worn off, we get the Too Close message. </P> <P>I don't even bother using Cheap on anything with an up arrow. I just kite the things.</P>

[kartikeya]

<DIV>Bongo has reminded me. Has anyone taken a look at the root on the lunge line on Test? Last I heard, they'd nerfed that as well, but I didn't get any hard numbers as to what, and I've heard nothing since.</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

It wasn't listed as being reduced. How much shorter can you get than 4 seconds anyway? <div></div>