Please reconsider resetting all spells to App1 if NOT changing class...

[Golij]

<DIV>I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 70 fury with many 60+ M1's and all others A3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously, betraying is NOT AN OPTION as it is currently presented. There is just no way I would consider losing every single spell upgrade I have bought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to ask SOE to reconsider the reset if not changing class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Betraying is something that would be a fun option. I would enjoy doing the quest. I would enjoy getting a new home. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont understand why SOE would go to all the trouble of implementing this when very few (70's especially) would consider the penalty even remotely worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please think about this!</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Golijee wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 70 fury with many 60+ M1's and all others A3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously, betraying is NOT AN OPTION as it is currently presented. There is just no way I would consider losing every single spell upgrade I have bought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to ask SOE to reconsider the reset if not changing class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Betraying is something that would be a fun option. I would enjoy doing the quest. I would enjoy getting a new home. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont understand why SOE would go to all the trouble of implementing this when very few (70's especially) would consider the penalty even remotely worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please think about this!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There has to be a downside to betraying your city.  That downside is losing all your masters, adepts, and app2-4s.

[Methriln]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Golijee wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 70 fury with many 60+ M1's and all others A3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously, betraying is NOT AN OPTION as it is currently presented. There is just no way I would consider losing every single spell upgrade I have bought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to ask SOE to reconsider the reset if not changing class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Betraying is something that would be a fun option. I would enjoy doing the quest. I would enjoy getting a new home. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont understand why SOE would go to all the trouble of implementing this when very few (70's especially) would consider the penalty even remotely worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please think about this!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>wouldnt be fair to the other classes that have there class change.One of the down sides of betraying.</DIV>

[Devilsbane]

One bad choice (forced class change when you betray) leading to another bad choice (reset of spells to App1). Class change should be seperate from betrayal and open to everyone betrayer or non-betrayer. 

[Etherium]

<P>Fair?</P> <P>Someone simply changing sides is getting a lot less for the price than someone that is changing sides and changing classes.  Losing skills when changing classes makes sense.  I'm going to forget how to be a berserker if I go to the other city?  </P> <P>It is sort of like going to the golden arches in RL.  Person a orders a sandwich and a drink and pays $2.  Person b orders just the drink and to make it fair is charged $2.  That's not fairness.  That is some twisted and misguided form of "equality" when the situations are not equal at all.</P>

[PlatSt]

Betrayal is not supposed to be easy or done lightly.  A troll in Qeynos should feel special and relatively unique.  The devs have ensured that this stay the case by making the penalty for betrayal high.  Good job guys.

[KBern]

<DIV>They do not want droves of people doing this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They want the people who choose to do this to think long and hard about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They want the people that choose to do this to think the benefit of the new city, and or a new class outweighs the penalty of having to reset your spells and lose some gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only those really sure will do this, not everyone who just wants less lag, or a change of scenery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is supposed to be a big change to your character and this is the way they are making that happen.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>I agree with the original poster. Betraying doesn't need to be fair. There is no need for a penalty. And it makes no role play sense. A fury in qeynos or freeport is still a fury. They know thier spells its thier beliefs that change. </P> <P>Now a ranger who become san assasin is entirely different story not only has his beliefs change but hsi entire way of living. He will learn all new cutthroat skills. poisens, and ways to get up close and personal we is relearning his class and hence has not mastered his trade. </P> <P>The penalty for betraying is the building of faction within your new city. The inability to use basic vendors and brokers. The lose of quests and a home city. You must prove yourself. You don't just forget how to play your class. </P> <P>Now everything is fair still why because the player never changed classes just thier home city. If that fury decided to be a warden then her spells should all be app 1, becuase then it would be fair.</P> <P>The only reason to place the app 1 restriction is either lazy programming, to control betrayal and everyone moving to qeynos, Or another item sink to help promote spell crafters.</P> <P>And please you gusy act liek the previous betrayal system was some form of torture. In actuality it was a 1 day xp session quest. You killed a bunch of orcs or gnolls and a few named soloable mobs. No faction, no exile city, nada you were instantly a citizen of the new city, the current system itself is already more of a deterent with the building of faction. The one thing they should do is limit the amount a person cna betray (in example make it a non repeatable quest 1 for each side) </P> <P>The level limit for betrayal was one of the most limiting factors in this game. If they would of removed the lvl limit, class disparity, and class balance early on they probably could of made the 2 cities alot more at war. Instead of the uneasy tension it represents in game. it would of been cooler if eq2 really had a qeynos vs freeport war. People could join guilds on either side but would need to betray thier home city 9using the current exile system) . Instead of mxing qeynos and freeport people in one guild. Which was probably why its difficult to make guild status, guild halls, and city faction rewarding and yet neutral. If there was equal yet tangible rewards for guilds in each city you would have at least 2 very powerful guilds 1 from each city. </P> <P>Instead of an arbatrary status goal it should be a progressive goal for guild status. For example guilds would compete against other guilds in thier respective city to obtain the highest status in thier city. The guild with the highest status would have a large Static guild hall (in EFP or QH) complete with City guards (if paid for by coin and status) who attack any qeynosian who trys to enter. Banks, menders, mailboxs etc could of been purchasable for the guild hall. The second highest status guild in that city would get a smaller static guild hall (WFP and NQ). the third would recieve an even smaller static guild hall (NFP and SQ). The remaining guild halls would all be instanced guild halls in the appropriate guild districts (EFP, WFP, NFP) or (QH, SQ, NQ).  </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[Etherium]

<DIV>I suppose I would be more happy with it if the person changing classes also were also paying more of a penalty.  As I said, the price is the same even though someone changing classes is gaining much more of a change than someone changing cities.  The city change is cosmetic compared to the change a 70th level character would go through in order to relearn their class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Losing skills make sense for class change.  But since both are changing cities, perhaps the common loss should be all personal status and items purchased through personal status.  Then, along with that, the class changers would lose skills to pay for their class change.</DIV>

[Hamervelder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>I agree with the original poster. Betraying doesn't need to be fair. There is no need for a penalty. And it makes no role play sense. A fury in qeynos or freeport is still a fury. They know thier spells its thier beliefs that change. </P> <P>Now a ranger who become san assasin is entirely different story not only has his beliefs change but hsi entire way of living. He will learn all new cutthroat skills. poisens, and ways to get up close and personal we is relearning his class and hence has not mastered his trade. </P> <P>The penalty for betraying is the building of faction within your new city. The inability to use basic vendors and brokers. The lose of quests and a home city. You must prove yourself. You don't just forget how to play your class. </P> <P>Now everything is fair still why because the player never changed classes just thier home city. If that fury decided to be a warden then her spells should all be app 1, becuase then it would be fair.</P> <P>The only reason to place the app 1 restriction is either lazy programming, to control betrayal and everyone moving to qeynos, Or another item sink to help promote spell crafters.</P> <P>And please you gusy act liek the previous betrayal system was some form of torture. In actuality it was a 1 day xp session quest. You killed a bunch of orcs or gnolls and a few named soloable mobs. No faction, no exile city, nada you were instantly a citizen of the new city, the current system itself is already more of a deterent with the building of faction. The one thing they should do is limit the amount a person cna betray (in example make it a non repeatable quest 1 for each side) </P> <P>The level limit for betrayal was one of the most limiting factors in this game. If they would of removed the lvl limit, class disparity, and class balance early on they probably could of made the 2 cities alot more at war. Instead of the uneasy tension it represents in game. it would of been cooler if eq2 really had a qeynos vs freeport war. People could join guilds on either side but would need to betray thier home city 9using the current exile system) . Instead of mxing qeynos and freeport people in one guild. Which was probably why its difficult to make guild status, guild halls, and city faction rewarding and yet neutral. If there was equal yet tangible rewards for guilds in each city you would have at least 2 very powerful guilds 1 from each city. </P> <P>Instead of an arbatrary status goal it should be a progressive goal for guild status. For example guilds would compete against other guilds in thier respective city to obtain the highest status in thier city. The guild with the highest status would have a large Static guild hall (in EFP or QH) complete with City guards (if paid for by coin and status) who attack any qeynosian who trys to enter. Banks, menders, mailboxs etc could of been purchasable for the guild hall. The second highest status guild in that city would get a smaller static guild hall (WFP and NQ). the third would recieve an even smaller static guild hall (NFP and SQ). The remaining guild halls would all be instanced guild halls in the appropriate guild districts (EFP, WFP, NFP) or (QH, SQ, NQ).  </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-16-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:21 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed.  Especially with the first paragraph.  It makes NO sense, RP or otherwise, for someone who is remaining the same class, to suddenly 'forget' spells, or to not be able to cast spells or use skills as they did before.  If you're learning a new class, sure...  it makes sense to have to re-learn everything.  But simply changing cities -- this is not sensible, and needs to be rethought.

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hamervelder wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>*snipped*</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-16-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:21 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed.  Especially with the first paragraph.  It makes NO sense, RP or otherwise, for someone who is remaining the same class, to suddenly 'forget' spells, or to not be able to cast spells or use skills as they did before.  If you're learning a new class, sure...  it makes sense to have to re-learn everything.  But simply changing cities -- this is not sensible, and needs to be rethought.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For an RP Perspective think of it as "you" just betrayed all your local contacts and now "you" will have to make new local contacts for all your "spellcasting" needs.  </P> <P>Just because all we do is push a button to make the spell go boom doesn't mean that in a RP/RL perspective we wouldn't need special supplies for them .. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But, then I'm in the group saying it SHOULD hurt to betray your City & Faith!   Why should it be any easier for "you" just because "you" aren't changing classes?  You still are stomping on your old town and beliefs and giving them the "finger" so to speak ... </P> <P>Want an easy change?  Go visit the Hairdresser ..<BR></P> <P> </P>

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>For an RP Perspective think of it as "you" just betrayed all your local contacts and now "you" will have to make new local contacts for all your "spellcasting" needs.</FONT>  </P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, explain Troubadours and Dirges....  They SING songs....  Do they somehow forget the words to thier songs and have to make contant with someone in the new city to remind them what the words to thier songs are??</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>But, then I'm in the group saying it SHOULD hurt to betray your City & Faith!   Why should it be any easier for "you" just because "you" aren't changing classes?  You still are stomping on your old town and beliefs and giving them the "finger" so to speak ...</FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P>Hmmm....  If I left the country I live in to move to another, nothing would be said or done...  If there is a job in my current profession I would continue on doing what I have always been doing (staying the same class)....   If not, then I would have to learn a new job (changing classes)...  Take a look at people that move from 1 country to another, are they forced to go back to school and learn thier profession all over again??  Nope, not at all....  Yet you are trying to say that a person moving from Qeunos to Freeport or vice versa should have to go through all thier training all over again...  Makes no sence reguardless if you look at it in a RP or RL situation</P> <P>Faith, suposed this could be related to religion....  If your changing faiths. then no, you can not keep doing what you have been doing, thus a class change would be in order and you would have to learn your new faith from scratch (the loss of skills)....</P> <P> </P> <P>What they should be doing, considering all the changes to classes and people becomming dissatisfied with thier current classes is change the betrayal quest into a class betrayal quest....  Where you can betray your current class and pick up a new class....  Then the punishment of losing all your spells would be more fitting....  </P> <P>There are alot of people that quit the game entirely because they are not satisfied with thier class, yet have no desire to reroll a new class....   This would allow people to maintain thier names, thier status and all the hard work they have put into thier characters for the last year+....  And if they are worried about people constantly changing classes, then make it so they can only do it once every few months....</P> <P>Good example is my Troubadour friend just can't stand playing as a Troubadour anymore, but the only reason she stick with it is because she has over a years worth of time invested in her Troubadour...  All the HQs she has done, the personal/guild status she has accumulated...  That is alot of work you would just have to throw out because you no longer like the class you play because of changes that were made to the class....</P> <P>Like I said, change betrayal to a class betrayal, limited to once every few months....  Loss of all spells to AP1...</P> <P>This alone might keep some people from leavi the game because they don't want to waste all the time again to level up another character....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>For an RP Perspective think of it as "you" just betrayed all your local contacts and now "you" will have to make new local contacts for all your "spellcasting" needs.</FONT>  </P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, explain Troubadours and Dirges....  They SING songs....  Do they somehow forget the words to thier songs and have to make contant with someone in the new city to remind them what the words to thier songs are??</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>*snipped*</FONT></P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Breathmints .. Cherry Flavored Cough Drops ... Dark Cherry Flavored Throat Spray (yum!).  </P> <P>Oh and new paper to re-write those precious songs on since in "your" last bid for freedom from your current city, one of the guards threw a bucket of [Removed for Content] water on you and it soaked into your precious journal that held all your Special Adept & Master Songs lyrics and "you" are now left with only the clumsy Apprentice Songs that you know from heart since your 1st Master made you sing them day & night untill you could sing them in the dark with one hand tied behind your back ...    *shakes head* soo sad ...</P> <P> </P> <P>Next?<BR></P>

[Dasein]

<P> <P>"I agree with the original poster. Betraying doesn't need to be fair. There is no need for a penalty. And it makes no role play sense. A fury in qeynos or freeport is still a fury. They know thier spells its thier beliefs that change. "</P> <P>And why do you assume that their spells are not a function of their beliefs? When their beliefs change, they need to relearn how to cast their spells because they are operating with those different beliefs. While the end result is the same, the means of casting have changed, and so those spells must be relearned. </P> <P></P>

[Dasein]

<P>"Ok, explain Troubadours and Dirges....  They SING songs....  Do they somehow forget the words to thier songs and have to make contant with someone in the new city to remind them what the words to thier songs are??"</P> <P>Singing about the glory of the Overlord and how Freeport will be triumphant over all its foes isn't going to go over well in Qeynos.</P><p>Message Edited by Caswydian on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 PM</span>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <P>"Ok, explain Troubadours and Dirges....  They SING songs....  Do they somehow forget the words to thier songs and have to make contant with someone in the new city to remind them what the words to thier songs are??"</P> <P>Singing about the glory of the Overlord and how Freeport will be triumphant over all its foes isn't going to go over well in Qeynos.</P> <P>Message Edited by Caswydian on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:58 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly.</P> <P>For EVERY "logical" (kinda of ironic in a fantasy game but ) explanation one can come up with as to why they SHOULD NOT lose their abilities, there is a logical roleplay explanation as to why you DO have to re-learn.</P>

[Hamervelder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <P> <P>"I agree with the original poster. Betraying doesn't need to be fair. There is no need for a penalty. And it makes no role play sense. A fury in qeynos or freeport is still a fury. They know thier spells its thier beliefs that change. "</P> <P>And why do you assume that their spells are not a function of their beliefs? When their beliefs change, they need to relearn how to cast their spells because they are operating with those different beliefs. While the end result is the same, the means of casting have changed, and so those spells must be relearned. </P> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And who says their beliefs change?  For instance, my fury that follows Karana in Freeport, will still follow Karana in Qeynos.  THe only change is city locale, in such a case. 

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <P>"Ok, explain Troubadours and Dirges....  They SING songs....  Do they somehow forget the words to thier songs and have to make contant with someone in the new city to remind them what the words to thier songs are??"</P> <P>Singing about the glory of the Overlord and how Freeport will be triumphant over all its foes isn't going to go over well in Qeynos.</P> <P>Message Edited by Caswydian on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:58 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Easy enough. How many rapper's woudl make good country singers? Do you think britney spears would make it as an opera singer? They are all different classes that do the same thing. we are not arguing a forgets how to regen heal. Nor does a dirge someone who sings death songs (think funeral) could be a troubador someone who sings (upbeat songs). They all have to relearn thier songs from the begining.  </P> <P>Finally people all are acting liek the current betrayal system was soem form of torture or punishment. It was a quest that involved killing 3 named (solo mobs now) and a bunch of orcs or gnolls. The current system is by far harder invovling a new transient city and building factions while doing several quests and deeds for your new city before you can even enter the city. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 PM</span>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>I agree with the original poster. Betraying doesn't need to be fair. There is no need for a penalty. And it makes no role play sense. A fury in qeynos or freeport is still a fury. They know thier spells its thier beliefs that change.</p>The only reason to place the app 1 restriction is either lazy programming, to control betrayal and everyone moving to qeynos, Or another item sink to help promote spell crafters.<hr></blockquote>It makes no role-play sense, but it makes perfect sense from a game perspective. If you want to betray your city, you lose your spell upgrades, and the only fair way to do it is to have it for all classes or none. It's completely unfair for the player of a level 70 shadowknight to lose all his upgrades while the player of the fury gets to keep all of his. Betrayal shouldn't be something for some classes to do without consequence while others lose a lot.The reason for it is because you can't just convert shadowknight spells to paladin ones (for example) , since the two classes are so different, and it would be unfair to them if others got to keep the spells. This has nothing to do with lazy programming or an item sink.</div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Why the change though the current system lets the fury keep her spells, but changes the sk spells into pallies. Ther eis no balance because the sk who becoems a paladin gets a new class where the fury who stays a fury only gets a new call spell.</DIV> <DIV>put it this way</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if a fury who keeps her class betrays </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>she gets a new call to qeynos spell and all app 1 spells- Why woudl soemone want this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a warrior goes from freeport to qeynos he gets a zerker and a new call spell and all his spells hit app1- reason for app 1 peopel will take the hit to becoem the other class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn tadd up no matter how much you debate it. Previosuly it never changed the fury why should it now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to say it gives betrayal a penalty is a farce sicne the previosu betrayal was a 1 day quest which required killign 3 named and a bunch of orcs or gnolls. hardly a penalty this exil system requires you to work faction and queests while living exiled for a short duration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there is no balance between the 2.</DIV>

[Laiina]

<P>It simply would not be fair if only certain classes got nerfed. One class can keep all their upgraded spells, but another - with a forced class change - cannot?</P> <P>I don't think so.</P>

[Jal]

Why are people at high level neutral classes with masters/relic etc wanting to change city?I dont see why anyone would do this, if you wanted to be in the other city then you could have betrayed at a young age when you started or chosen a different race and just started in the city. The devs are giving people the opportunity to betray later, you didnt have this option before but to choose it means you have to take a hit.If you dont want to lose all your hard work on spells etc then dont stay where you are and play the same class.

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>Laiina wrote:<div></div> <p>It simply would not be fair if only certain classes got nerfed. One class can keep all their upgraded spells, but another - with a forced class change - cannot?</p> <p>I don't think so.</p><hr></blockquote>It is also not fair that some can change their class while others can not..</div>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Right... Freeport lies on one continent, Qeyons lies on another. Now, Id love to see someone move from say Michigan to Sweden where I live and be able to procede with their professional path as if nothing had happened. Sure, a police might be a police, but you will have to learn language, customs, local behaviour differences and so much more (belive me, my fianceé is working on doin the move from USA to europe and its <EM>not</EM> a dance on roses.) You will still have your basic knowledge (spells/CA's at app1), but ye will have to re-learn how to maximise your efficiency in new surroundings. Moving to and acclimatizing in america might not be as tough, but there is no reason why moving between freeport and qeynos would be easie. I doubt neither Antonia nor Lucan allows for cultural import from their competing cities wich means you as a new citizen might as well have moved to the moon when it comes to familiarity to the new ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[PlatSt]

The point I think a lot of people are missing is that it doesn't need to be "fair."  The rules are in place to make sure the game is balanced and enjoyable for all.  An idealistic concept of fairness is irrelevant.

[Loki_d20]

It's in place to:<ol><li>discourage rampant betraying between cities so as to maintain the uniquity of being an evil race in a good city and vice versa.</li><li>help remove uncommon and rare books from the in-game economy by resetting them and forcing new books to be purchased</li></ol>Roleplaying nor does fairness have anything to do with the mechanic, truthfully.<div></div>

[Serendia]

Facts people...1.) Current betrayal quest resets all skills to app I regardless of class anyway.2.) You can switch classes if you are a neutral one to your counterpart.<div></div>

[insen]

<P>From How I see it their are 3 ways to betray</P> <P>1) Change class & city</P> <P>2) Change city</P> <P>3) Change class</P> <P>For this reason I think that their should be 2 QUESTS for this system.  (1) Class quest (2) betrayal quest</P> <P><STRONG>For rollplaying exp 1</STRONG> a Pally is sent to a new home to spread his word about his god.  When he first gets their he is shunded and hated (Faction),  but by preforming quests and feats for the new people they start to look apon him with different eyes and start alowing him access to the city's supplies. But most do not agree with his ways but are thankful for his help.  With this exp. the pally still has all the skills he has learned upto this point and is useing those skills to make nice with the locals (faction).</P> <P><STRONG>For rollplaying exp 2 </STRONG>a Pally's wife has come down with a rare condishion and he prays day and night for his wife to be cured, but she later dies.  Now Pally has turned his back on his god and started to worship the god of death so that he can have his wife back, thus becoming a SK.  He now  has to work hard to gain the trust of that god (relearning his skills) all cities have secert cults why not the ones in EQ also.</P> <P>I this this would add some new life in the game,  better diversity to PvP servers.  This would also balance the the loss and gain aspects of the betrayal quest</P> <P> </P>

[Etherium]

<DIV>I'm glad to see that so many think that my character should not be able to kick or swing his sword to the same effect because his address changed.   Why make someone keeping the same class, doing the same combat arts (skills not spells) change?  I can kick someone in the knee in a fight the same way in Qeynos as I can in Freeport.  But to be "fair," I have to unlearn how to kick?  That does not sound reasonable.</DIV>

[Timzil]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Golijee wrote:<BR><DIV>I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I am a level 70 fury with many 60+ M1's and all others A3.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Obviously, betraying is NOT AN OPTION as it is currently presented. There is just no way I would consider losing every single spell upgrade I have bought.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I would like to ask SOE to reconsider the reset if not changing class. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Betraying is something that would be a fun option. I would enjoy doing the quest. I would enjoy getting a new home. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I just dont understand why SOE would go to all the trouble of implementing this when very few (70's especially) would consider the penalty even remotely worth it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Please think about this!</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There has to be a downside to betraying your city.  That downside is losing all your masters, adepts, and app2-4s.<hr></blockquote>There ought to be some reasoning to it though. City faction had nothing to do with our spell/skill acquisitions.

[Gungo]

<P>Yeah i never understood why qeynos doesnt have assassins etc. Its not the fact those classes are excepted, but there is always unreputable people even in the most holiest of cities. Even Rome has its share of criminals, murderers and thieves. There is always a lore reason for Shadowknights(fallen paladin), assassins(murderer for hire), brigands(thief), bruisers(barroom brute), coercers(mind manipulators), necros (necrophilics), Inquisitors (witch hunters), defilers to be in qeynos especially if they betray. And fall under the disguise of helping qeynos. </P> <P>Modern day inquisitors were nothing more then witchhunters in salem, mass who went about persecuting anyone who they deemed a debil worshipper. The society was never bad. But bad people exsist even in the best societies. To limit those classes in qeynos i think no class should start out in qeynos as evil. and no class should start out in freeport as good class. but during the course of thier adventuring those classes can choose to see the error in their ways and while still remaining a citezen they should be able to convert to what them deem right. This will also allow for a more story driven freeport vs qeynso war w/o affectign gameplay and allow guilds to truly recieve beenfits from thier home city.</P> <P>IMHO betraying should be a seperate faction and guild thing. Whereas class changing should be a seperate quest in which your spells all revert to app1. Again you can change classes w/o changing cities in the current betrayal system. </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[PlatSt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Etherium wrote:<div>I'm glad to see that so many think that my character should not be able to kick or swing his sword to the same effect because his address changed.   Why make someone keeping the same class, doing the same combat arts (skills not spells) change?  I can kick someone in the knee in a fight the same way in Qeynos as I can in Freeport.  But to be "fair," I have to unlearn how to kick?  That does not sound reasonable.</div><hr></blockquote> You're still not getting it.  You can't kick or swing a sword at all in this game.  All YOU can do is click buttons.  It's a game and it's much more important in a game that it be fun and balanced for the majority of players than it is that it make sense. <div></div><p>Message Edited by PlatStud on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 PM</span>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div>There has to be a downside to betraying your city.  That downside is losing all your masters, adepts, and app2-4s.<hr></blockquote>That is a completely illogical downside especially considering that you aren't betraying completely naked.  Maybe you should lose all prior faction and any belongings like house and bank stuff that you didn't take with you, but that's it.

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>electricninjasex wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div>There has to be a downside to betraying your city.  That downside is losing all your masters, adepts, and app2-4s.<hr></blockquote>Thatis a completely illogical downside especially considering that youaren't betraying completely naked.  Maybe you should lose allprior faction and any belongings like house and bank stuff that youdidn't take with you, but that's it.<hr></blockquote>Look at it like lucan then, he was a paladin and he betrayed his god and hiscity/profession and had his powers stripped from his soul.The same is happening to you when you betray, it is not something you should take lightly.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherium wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm glad to see that so many think that my character should not be able to kick or swing his sword to the same effect because his address changed.   Why make someone keeping the same class, doing the same combat arts (skills not spells) change?  I can kick someone in the knee in a fight the same way in Qeynos as I can in Freeport.  But to be "fair," I have to unlearn how to kick?  That does not sound reasonable.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I play a dress wearing lizard who walks on two legs while riding a ghost horse with ribbons in it's mane while having a spectre, or a sexy female vampire, or a huge stone gargoyle following me around killing baby deer on my evil bidding.</P> <P>That is not very reasonable either.</P> <P>People, it is a game and there needs to be rules in place.  Logical or not, there needs to be penalties or something to dissuade everyone from wanting to do this.</P> <P>This is the way they do it.</P> <P>Those who planned, saved masters from their other class, if they bid on relic, they have the relic item in the bank, not turned in yet, and they have not bid on other gear they know they will lose to minimize the impact.</P> <P>It is not going to change I really  don't think, so if you want to betray, you will just have to decide if this penalty (yes no other word for it, just like death penalty etc.) is worth it to you.</P> <P>To some it is, to many it is not, and that is what makes it a difficult choice, as it should be.</P>

[Dessellion4]

Just curious.  Does this re-setting to App1 include the Master II choices you currently receive at 14, 24, 34 etc.  Because if so, whilst you can work hard and replace all those other Adept3s, Master1s, etc, once these babies are gone you won't be able to get them back.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dessellion wrote:<BR> Just curious.  Does this re-setting to App1 include the Master II choices you currently receive at 14, 24, 34 etc.  Because if so, whilst you can work hard and replace all those other Adept3s, Master1s, etc, once these babies are gone you won't be able to get them back.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would think would have to give betrayers a full respec.</P> <P>That is a penalty you cannot make up as opposed to the spell levels and gear.</P>

[JoarAddam]

<DIV>No.  I don't care whether you call your current spells extant knowledge or certifications, it doesn't matter to me.  If you want to keep your spells, don't betray.  what's so bad about your city that you feel the need to get away?  If it's really that bad, pay the price just like everyone else.  The folks that were excited thinking they could get away with this without the tiniest bit of damage to them deserve it anyways.  They're not even <STRONG>trying</STRONG> to play from an RP perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tharg]

I created a character speficically to betray.  I don't mind suffering, I don't mind all my spells going to App I.  Losing name, status, fine.  But why force me to choose another class?  It's like term limits, I can vote for anyone EXCEPT the class I want to be.  If I would have know about this class-change, I would have made my character another class so I could change to the class I wanted.  There's no reason to force a class change, and it's expecially harsh on someone like me.  Let me respec the class, don't force a class change, but not... neither of them.   There's no reason to force class change. <div></div>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Thargus wrote:I created a character speficically to betray.  I don't mind suffering, I don't mind all my spells going to App I.  Losing name, status, fine.  But why force me to choose another class?  It's like term limits, I can vote for anyone EXCEPT the class I want to be.  If I would have know about this class-change, I would have made my character another class so I could change to the class I wanted.  There's no reason to force a class change, and it's expecially harsh on someone like me.  Let me respec the class, don't force a class change, but not... neither of them.   There's no reason to force class change. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Forced class changes have always been the way it worked. With the old class progression, you'd start out as (for example) a fighter, then perhaps pick crusader. From there, your only choices were shadowknight or paladin, and that depended on your city. It worked the same for the other city-specific classes. If you could choose either, such as sorcerer -> wizard/warlock, then you'd choose that at level 20. With the new system, you either have to start out as a shadowknight to become a paladin, or a wizard (I think) gets a choice to stay a wizard or switch to warlock. You've never been able to change from mage to fighter, priest, or scout, or even from guardian to shadowknight.Certain classes are good (paladin) and others are evil (assassin). If you were expecting to play a paladin loyal to Freeport, you've never been able to do that, and it's likely you never will, and that's how it should be.</div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thargus wrote:<BR>I created a character speficically to betray.  I don't mind suffering, I don't mind all my spells going to App I.  Losing name, status, fine.  But why force me to choose another class?  It's like term limits, I can vote for anyone EXCEPT the class I want to be. <BR><BR>If I would have know about this class-change, I would have made my character another class so I could change to the class I wanted.  There's no reason to force a class change, and it's expecially harsh on someone like me.  Let me respec the class, don't force a class change, but not... neither of them.   There's no reason to force class change.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What do you mean?  You planned to betray, but don't want to change class?  You mean you want to be a Paladin in FP or a SK in Qeynos?</P> <P>If that is what you are talking about, that was never an option from day one and never meant to be an option even when the betray at higher lvl feature was talked about.</P>

[hansomepete]

Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland.

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Look at it like lucan then, he was a paladin and he betrayed his god and hiscity/profession and had his powers stripped from his soul.The same is happening to you when you betray, it is not something you should take lightly.<hr></blockquote> I look at it like someone betraying from the United States to the Soviet Union or vice versa; the only skills that are abandoned are the ones incompatible with the new regime, and the cost is that you lose your home and friends (which alone is substantial). A scientist is still a scientist, but maybe a catholic priest or comrade political officer won't have as much do. Allowing an unlimited number of betrayals already shows that the game designer(s) don't take betrayal as seriously as you're making it sound.

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>hansomepete wrote:<div></div>Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland.<hr></blockquote>*nod* Freeport's a much better reflection of real life. Why, just the other day I saw trolls wandering around all over the place, and if I want to poison someone with a loaf of bread, there's no way the police will ever come after me.<div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR><BR>Look at it like lucan then, he was a paladin and he betrayed his god and hiscity/profession and had his powers stripped from his soul.<BR><BR>The same is happening to you when you betray, it is not something you should take lightly.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I look at it like someone betraying from the United States to the Soviet Union or vice versa; the only skills that are abandoned are the ones incompatible with the new regime, and the cost is that you lose your home and friends (which alone is substantial). A scientist is still a scientist, but maybe a catholic priest or comrade political officer won't have as much do.<BR><BR>Allowing an unlimited number of betrayals already shows that the game designer(s) don't take betrayal as seriously as you're making it sound.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well if you can point me a magical person who has changed countries and kept all those powers, I would be willign to entertain a RW example, but this is a fantasy game and RW examples have no bearing, it is not reality, it is fantasy.</P> <P>What is the SOE motto, "You are in our world now."</P> <P>It fits.<BR></P>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>electricninjasex wrote: I look at it like someone betraying from the United States to the Soviet Union or vice versa; the only skills that are abandoned are the ones incompatible with the new regime, and the cost is that you lose your home and friends (which alone is substantial).<hr></blockquote>None of the classes have the same skills, though, especially now that there's no more subclasses. You can't just take a paladin Master I spell and switch it to a Shadowknight spell. I suppose there could be some sort of respec - if you have 10 Adept IIIs and 5 Masters, then you get to choose the same for the new spells, but that's not how they chose to do things. Does it make sense for the neutral classes who keep the same spells? Not at all, but that's where fairness to all players kicks in. Sometimes that becomes more important.<div></div>

[PlatSt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hansomepete wrote:<BR> Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're kidding, right? <P> </P> <P>I have an idea, can we please have a server that requires you to provide proof you are over 25 years old in order to play?  That would be awesome.</P>

[cr0wangel]

<div><blockquote><hr>PlatStud wrote:<div></div>Betrayal is not supposed to be easy or done lightly.  A troll in Qeynos should feel special and relatively unique.  The devs have ensured that this stay the case by making the penalty for betrayal high.  Good job guys.<hr></blockquote>/agree </div>

[Devilsbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV>Right... Freeport lies on one continent, Qeyons lies on another. Now, Id love to see someone move from say Michigan to Sweden where I live and be able to procede with their professional path as if nothing had happened. Sure, a police might be a police, but you will have to learn language, customs, local behaviour differences and so much more (belive me, my fianceé is working on doin the move from USA to europe and its <EM>not</EM> a dance on roses.) You will still have your basic knowledge (spells/CA's at app1), but ye will have to re-learn how to maximise your efficiency in new surroundings. Moving to and acclimatizing in america might not be as tough, but there is no reason why moving between freeport and qeynos would be easie. I doubt neither Antonia nor Lucan allows for cultural import from their competing cities wich means you as a new citizen might as well have moved to the moon when it comes to familiarity to the new ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A professor of mine, a successful business man, did just that. He work as CEO for american and europeon companies. Yes there is bureaucracy you deal with. Yes there are different laws and customs you have to deal with. But the main fact business (magic/combat arts) works the same way either place. As I stated earlier the app I reset is a flawed desision based on the flawed desision to force a class change to certain betrayers. Class change should be open to all betrayer or non-betrayer alike.<p>Message Edited by Devilsbane on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:32 PM</span>

[DMIstar]

<P>It all biols down to one thing.. Those cant betray and keep thier own class Penalized and others who classes are found in both cities will not .. Aka Sks must change into Pallies to betray..</P> <P>Other then that, If there is no penatly then people would just find advantages to it and not take it for what its supposed to be.. The game does not want people betraying back and forth... </P>

[cr0wangel]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>insence wrote:<div></div><strong>For rollplaying exp 1</strong> a Pally is sent to a new home to spread his word about his god.  When he first gets their he is shunded and hated (Faction),  but by preforming quests and feats for the new people they start to look apon him with different eyes and start alowing him access to the city's supplies. But most do not agree with his ways but are thankful for his help.<p></p><hr></blockquote>The paladin perform quests and feats that are evil, thus he could not remain a paladin, so need to change class. Most do not agree with his way but are thankful? Freeport is a city of evil, if they do not agree with 'your ways', they will kill you. Sorry, but what you say doesn't make sens.</div><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>PlatStud wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> hansomepete wrote: <div></div>Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland. <hr> </blockquote>You're kidding, right? <p>I have an idea, can we please have a server that requires you to provide proof you are over 25 years old in order to play?  That would be awesome. </p><hr></blockquote>Sadly, he's probably not. Not everyone under 25 is immature, though, nor should everyone over 25 be allowed near a keyboard. But, yes, something should be done about anyone who uses the words "dude" and "candyland" in the same post. Extra points for the use of "puke" and lower-case "i".<div></div>

[PlatSt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PlatStud wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hansomepete wrote:<BR> Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're kidding, right? <P>I have an idea, can we please have a server that requires you to provide proof you are over 25 years old in order to play?  That would be awesome.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sadly, he's probably not.<BR><BR>Not everyone under 25 is immature, though, nor should everyone over 25 be allowed near a keyboard. But, yes, something should be done about anyone who uses the words "dude" and "candyland" in the same post. Extra points for the use of "puke" and lower-case "i".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you notice, he actually began a sentence with the lower-case "i."  Please, please, please can we at least get a server that requires you to interview and perform an IQ test?  (note: Online IQ tests do not count; you're IQ isn't really 387 sorry to break it to you.)

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>Devilsbane wrote:<div></div> <div></div> A professor of mine, a successful business man, did just that. He work as CEO for american and europeon companies. Yes there is bureaucracy you deal with. Yes there are different laws and customs you have to deal with. But the main fact business (magic/combat arts) works the same way either place. As I stated earlier the app I reset is a flawed desision based on the flawed desision to force a class change to certain betrayers. Class change should be open to all betrayer or non-betrayer alike. <span class="time_text"></span> <hr></blockquote>The real-world analogies don't work here. It's possible for a businessman to go to medical school and learn how to be a doctor, or for an accountant to also learn how to be a lawyer. You keep all the skills you've learned from your old profession while adding the new. RP-wise, the D&D rules are a good reflection of this - the fighter who wants to heal becomes a 5th level fighter/1st level cleric, reflecting the lack of experience in the new skill. But that's not how the EQ2 rules work. Here, almost every skill is different for each class. The paladin who becomes a shadowknight no longer has any of his paladin abilities - they're all gone, replaced with the shadowknight line. So the choices are either demote everything to app1, or to allow some sort of respec (if you had 10 adept 3s before, you get to choose 10 now, in the same tiers as before). The devs went with the first option, most likely because it's easier to program, it's a penalty, and it's an item sink. Forcing class changes has always been the way the betrayal system works. There's no such thing as a good shadowknight or evil paladin, so they have to switch class. Under the old system, the Crusader was locked into Shadowknight or Paladin based on city. The neutral classes could choose at level 20, so that carries over to the new betrayal quest. Since some players have to change and lose their skills, the fair thing is to do it for all players. The betrayal quest is not a class-change system. It's an alignment/city change, and certain classes are not allowed in each city. I'd like to see a class-change quest, but this isn't it.<div></div>

[Telka]

<DIV>if betraying was easy freeport would become even more of a ghost town then it allrdy is</DIV>

[Dessellion4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dessellion wrote:<BR> Just curious.  Does this re-setting to App1 include the Master II choices you currently receive at 14, 24, 34 etc.  Because if so, whilst you can work hard and replace all those other Adept3s, Master1s, etc, once these babies are gone you won't be able to get them back.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would think would have to give betrayers a full respec.</P> <P>That is a penalty you cannot make up as opposed to the spell levels and gear.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for that and that would certainly be the way I would think it should work.  Any chance of a developer confirming this to be the way their thinking is going?  As you say all other abilities, spells and armour can be regained.  It wouldn't be right if betraying removed an ability for all time.  Your character would then always be underpowered compared to someone who hadn't betrayed.<p>Message Edited by Dessellion on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 PM</span>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Telka wrote:<DIV>if betraying was easy freeport would become even more of a ghost town then it allrdy is</DIV><hr></blockquote>Why would anyone leave freeport? Freeport is a great town.

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Right now, if you betray, all CA/Spells are reset to App1. </P> <P>The new betrayal, all CA/Spells are reset to App1.</P> <P>As other have said, you must put your heart into your decision otherwise it is worthless.</P> <P>I think you all have already gotten a major concession in the whole Exile Haven.  Personally, I think it shouldn't exist either.  When I betrayed, I had to find a safe place to sleep, had to find a Mender who would be willing to help me, find a vendor willing to do business with me, and deal with the fact that I had no access to most quests, vault, brokers, and my house for the duration of the betrayal quests. </P> <P>It was hard, but it was probably the most fun I have had in an MMORPG ever.  I was more involved with the game and my character than I had ever been.</P> <P>I'm all for making things accessable to more people, but c'mon already, you already have it tons easier (Haven).</P> <P>Don't betray if you don't want to pay the consequences.</P>

[Acka]

<div><blockquote><hr>Golijee wrote: <div>I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class. </div><hr></blockquote>OMG you deserve to get to all apps 1s after calling qeynos "nice".  Gee.</div>

[Kadurm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dessellion wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dessellion wrote:<BR> Just curious.  Does this re-setting to App1 include the Master II choices you currently receive at 14, 24, 34 etc.  Because if so, whilst you can work hard and replace all those other Adept3s, Master1s, etc, once these babies are gone you won't be able to get them back.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would think would have to give betrayers a full respec.</P> <P>That is a penalty you cannot make up as opposed to the spell levels and gear.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for that and that would certainly be the way I would think it should work.  Any chance of a developer confirming this to be the way their thinking is going?  As you say all other abilities, spells and armour can be regained.  It wouldn't be right if betraying removed an ability for all time.  Your character would then always be underpowered compared to someone who hadn't betrayed. <P>Message Edited by Dessellion on <SPAN class=date_text>05-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:52 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You DO get a full respec of ALL master 2 choices and trait choices when you change classes at the end of the betrayal. Not sure about class specific armors. Will check that out with my bruiser in full AQ and a couple of bruiser only items. Gonna change him to a monk.

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>I think you all have already gotten a major concession in the whole Exile Haven.  Personally, I think it shouldn't exist either.  When I betrayed, I had to find a safe place to sleep, had to find a Mender who would be willing to help me, find a vendor willing to do business with me, and deal with the fact that I had no access to most quests, vault, brokers, and my house for the duration of the betrayal quests. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It was hard, but it was probably the most fun I have had in an MMORPG ever.  I was more involved with the game and my character than I had ever been.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm all for making things accessable to more people, but c'mon already, you already have it tons easier (Haven).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Don't betray if you don't want to pay the consequences.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>what a sob story....   Takes all of 1 day, 2 at most to have completed the betrayal quest before..  I know, I have done it on several character and the first time I did it was right after the game was released when there was no information posted anywhere on where all the mobs were that you had to find....  Both Antonica and Commonlands have menders and merchants you can use...  And if you can't go without visiting the bank for a day or 2 something is wrong....</P> <P>Why don't ya compare the concenqueces before to the way they are changing to..  1-2 days of not being able to get into a city and up to 18 levels of lost spells Vs. ??? days of not being able to get into a city and 70 levels of lost spells....  If you ask me the price you pay deserves a much higher reward than just a city change and possible sub-class change....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P> <P> </P>

[ZeyGnome]

<P>Talk about sobbing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Don't betray.  Simple as that.  It's  not a right, it's an option.  An option you are obviously not willing to take if you have to pay any consequences.</P> <P> </P>

[Aienaa]

<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Talk about sobbing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Don't betray.  Simple as that.  It's  not a right, it's an option.  An option you are obviously not willing to take if you have to pay any consequences.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>You might want to look up the difference between sobbing and debating...</P> <P>The concequences for betraying do not equal the reward....  Previously all you risked losing was 18 levels worth of spells....  Now for the exact same reward, you are losing 70 levels of spells... That's 300+% the punishment for the same reward.....  Just a little lopsided if you ask me....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Talk about sobbing.</FONT></P><P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P><P><FONT color=#ffff00>Don't betray.  Simple as that.  It's  not a right, it's an option.  An option you are obviously not willing to take if you have to pay any consequences.</FONT></P><P> </P><P>You might want to look up the difference between sobbing and debating...</P><P>The concequences for betraying do not equal the reward....  Previously all you risked losing was 18 levels worth of spells....  Now for the exact same reward, you are losing 70 levels of spells... That's 300+% the punishment for the same reward.....  Just a little lopsided if you ask me....</P><P> </P><P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><hr></blockquote>Its only a punishment if you choose it.If you dont want to be punished dont do it. Your choice, your responsibility.

[ZeyGnome]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><BR> </P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR><BR> <P>You might want to look up the difference between sobbing and debating...</P><BR> <P>The concequences for betraying do not equal the reward....  Previously all you risked losing was 18 levels worth of spells....  Now for the exact same reward, you are losing 70 levels of spells... That's 300+% the punishment for the same reward.....  Just a little lopsided if you ask me....</P><BR> <P> </P><BR> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P><BR> <P>The longer you wait, the greater the peril.</P><BR> <P>At 18, you didn't invest much into the city you were loyal to, therefore the sting of betrayal is less. </P><BR> <P>At 70 and leaving Freeport, you spent your entire career being evil, helping the side you are now turning against, doing all manner of evil quests to gain the level that you are at.  You should not be rewarded for that, you should be punished.   In this game this is that punishment.   </P><BR> <P>If the engine was more sophisticated (and no game has that level of engine needed yet that I know of) you could have different punishments but more in line with a true betrayal, like the diference between a Private and a General betraying their country for another.  Things like Security clearances being extremely limited, Country spies randomly following you around to report you doings, Probation so that if you did even one minor thing against the country you betrayed to you would be imprisoned or exiled again, etc (its early, I probably could come up with more later).  Also, your punishment would be based on your activities before you betrayed (ie, were you a mass murderer, did you work behind the scenes in the evil land to actually help the one you are betraying to, are you bringing information that would help topple the evil country, etc.)  </P><BR> <P>The thing is, the amount of AI needed would be prohibative, so this is what this game requires of you when you decide to betray.<BR></P><BR> <P> </P><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kadurm wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>You DO get a full respec of ALL master 2 choices and trait choices when you change classes at the end of the betrayal. Not sure about class specific armors. Will check that out with my bruiser in full AQ and a couple of bruiser only items. Gonna change him to a monk.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well that is good to know...it is only fair.</P> <P>But they have stated you wont be able to keep your armor...it will go into your overflow slot and be worthless.</P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I think you all have already gotten a major concession in the whole Exile Haven.  Personally, I think it shouldn't exist either.  When I betrayed, I had to find a safe place to sleep, had to find a Mender who would be willing to help me, find a vendor willing to do business with me, and deal with the fact that I had no access to most quests, vault, brokers, and my house for the duration of the betrayal quests. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It was hard, but it was probably the most fun I have had in an MMORPG ever.  I was more involved with the game and my character than I had ever been.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm all for making things accessable to more people, but c'mon already, you already have it tons easier (Haven).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Don't betray if you don't want to pay the consequences.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>what a sob story....   Takes all of 1 day, 2 at most to have completed the betrayal quest before..  I know, I have done it on several character and the first time I did it was right after the game was released when there was no information posted anywhere on where all the mobs were that you had to find....  Both Antonica and Commonlands have menders and merchants you can use...  And if you can't go without visiting the bank for a day or 2 something is wrong....</P> <P>Why don't ya compare the concenqueces before to the way they are changing to..  1-2 days of not being able to get into a city and up to 18 levels of lost spells Vs. ??? days of not being able to get into a city and 70 levels of lost spells....  If you ask me the price you pay deserves a much higher reward than just a city change and possible sub-class change....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then dont betray.</P> <P>The penalties are clear and out in the open.  If you betray, you lose your spells and class specific armor.</P> <P>If the reason for you to betray is strong enough, then you do it, if not, then dont.</P> <P>This is not a decision that should be made lightly, or make it appealing to anyone who is bored and wants a new quest. </P> <P>That is not the intent.<BR></P>

[Etherium]

<DIV>My point was that someone simply betraying is paying as steep a price as someone that is both betraying and having to learn a new class.  Since this game is all about risk vs. reward, should not the price to do two things be higher than the price to change one?  If the skills dropping to apprentice one is the price to betray, what is the additional price to change classes?  More consistent would be to have betrayers lose status (reputation) or something similar, not skills.  That frees up the skills to be the price for changing classes.  </DIV>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Etherium wrote:<DIV>My point was that someone simply betraying is paying as steep a price as someone that is both betraying and having to learn a new class.  Since this game is all about risk vs. reward, should not the price to do two things be higher than the price to change one?  If the skills dropping to apprentice one is the price to betray, what is the additional price to change classes?  More consistent would be to have betrayers lose status (reputation) or something similar, not skills.  That frees up the skills to be the price for changing classes.  </DIV><hr></blockquote>Learning a new class isnt a punishment though, its always been the way for betrayal of certain classes. The punishment for both is the app 1 reset.

[Etherium]

<DIV>Maybe an example would clarify.  Suppose you have scrimped and saved for a new computer.  You finally buy it, but only have enough to get one stick of RAM.  Some dude named Etherium comes in and pays for his computer while you are waiting.  Oddly enough, his computer comes to the same price, but the only difference is that he is getting two sticks - everything else is the same.  Are you going to feel this is fair?</DIV>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Etherium wrote:<DIV>Maybe an example would clarify.  Suppose you have scrimped and saved for a new computer.  You finally buy it, but only have enough to get one stick of RAM.  Some dude named Etherium comes in and pays for his computer while you are waiting.  Oddly enough, his computer comes to the same price, but the only difference is that he is getting two sticks - everything else is the same.  Are you going to feel this is fair?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Not a valid example.BetrayalClass 1 = Necromancerclass 2 = FuryNecromancer wants to change his ways and not deal with the evil arts of summoning dark and undead creatures, he betrays his city and goes to qeynos where he is banned from practicing his arts but is taught how to use his basic skills to learn conjuration. He hasnt totally forgotten his skills learnt during his time as a necromancer (how to use spells and pets) but he has to remaster all the new specifics to that type of magic (actual spells).Fury is greedy and doesnt like working towards a common goal as the people of Qeynos so altruistically dictate and thus he journeys to freeport. His profession is recognised as an acceptable practice in the city but he has to start at the bottom and work his way up the ranks again to full mastery of his profession.This is about betraying a city NOT changing class, you choose to betray a city for whatever reasons you accept the rules in the place that takes you in. If this means you're not allowed to do the job that you used to do then you retrain, if you can still do the same profession then you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

[SisterTheresa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I play a dress wearing lizard who walks on two legs while riding a ghost horse with ribbons in it's mane while having a spectre, or a sexy female vampire, or a huge stone gargoyle following me around killing baby deer on my evil bidding.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow, I want to see that.</P> <P>Anyway ... I'd like to say a few things.</P> <P>1.  Loosing Master spells to Apprentice spells seems harsh, but I agree with many posters that if you are classes totally opposite of what you were before it is necessary.  A Paladin turning to a ShadowKnight isn't going to be using holiness to attack ... come to the dark side ...</P> <P>2.  If you did wish to betray you should have done it much earlier.  The quest was in there for a while so one cannot complain.</P> <P>3.  I think there should be a quest to change one's class but not through betrayal.  YOu would have to start all over but at least you wouldn't loose your character name or status.<BR></P>

[SisterTheresa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hansomepete wrote:<BR> Dude, you betray you take the hit plain as that. Why go over to the good side anyway? i tried playing on that side and it made me want to puke. Freeport = real life, Qeynos = candyland.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>*nod* Freeport's a much better reflection of real life. Why, just the other day I saw trolls wandering around all over the place, and if I want to poison someone with a loaf of bread, there's no way the police will ever come after me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>-=gasps=- Oooh I'm telling Kade on you!  And the cubes! -=grins=-</P> <P>But seriously .. the only thing annoying to me in Qeynos now is the cheery annoying voices some NPCs have.  So I just have my sound off and play with my headphones on.</P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Etherium wrote:<BR> <DIV>Maybe an example would clarify.  Suppose you have scrimped and saved for a new computer.  You finally buy it, but only have enough to get one stick of RAM.  Some dude named Etherium comes in and pays for his computer while you are waiting.  Oddly enough, his computer comes to the same price, but the only difference is that he is getting two sticks - everything else is the same.  Are you going to feel this is fair?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You have to look at is as you are betraying your city.  That is the primary factor, that is what resets everything.</P> <P>The class change is irrelevant after that.</P> <P>Think of a doctor coming to the USA from South America....you need to learn new language, you need to understand how that system of medicine works, you need to be licensed all over again.</P> <P>The human body has not changed, your knowledge of the human body has not changed, but you cannot just move and practice medicine at the same level as you did in your home country w/o some re-training and re-licensing.</P> <P>You have not lost your knowledge base, but the nuances of the new system are different in so many ways it will take some time, and cost to be able to practice in the new country.</P> <P>A lawyer would be another example that would fit though I hate to use RW examples for this since there really is not any, this is the closest I can come up with that fits what is going on with the betrayal.</P><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[SisterTheresa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR><BR>Fury is greedy and doesnt like working towards a common goal as the people of Qeynos so altruistically dictate and thus he journeys to freeport. His profession is recognised as an acceptable practice in the city but he has to start at the bottom and work his way up the ranks again to full mastery of his profession.<BR><BR>This is about betraying a city NOT changing class, you choose to betray a city for whatever reasons you accept the rules in the place that takes you in. If this means you're not allowed to do the job that you used to do then you retrain, if you can still do the same profession then you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So ... if you are a neutral clas slike Guardian and betray .. you still loose everything?  That is odd since nothing will be different except where you live.  Are they doing that since other classes would have to change?</P> <P>Bah I miss the old tiered class progression.  -=sighs=-  So much simpler.<BR></P>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>SisterTheresa wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Jalek wrote:<BR><BR>Fury is greedy and doesnt like working towards a common goal as the people of Qeynos so altruistically dictate and thus he journeys to freeport. His profession is recognised as an acceptable practice in the city but he has to start at the bottom and work his way up the ranks again to full mastery of his profession.<BR><BR>This is about betraying a city NOT changing class, you choose to betray a city for whatever reasons you accept the rules in the place that takes you in. If this means you're not allowed to do the job that you used to do then you retrain, if you can still do the same profession then you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So ... if you are a neutral clas slike Guardian and betray .. you still loose everything?  That is odd since nothing will be different except where you live.  Are they doing that since other classes would have to change?</P><P>Bah I miss the old tiered class progression.  -=sighs=-  So much simpler.<BR></P><hr></blockquote>Read what you quoted about fury, that is a neutral class. You change cities you keep profession you just have to work your way back to the top by gaining power(spells) in your new city.

[Lenefir]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr><i>ZeyGnome wrote:</i><p><i>Right now, if you betray, all CA/Spells are reset to App1. </i></p><p><i>The new betrayal, all CA/Spells are reset to App1.</i></p><p><i>As other have said, you must put your heart into your decision otherwise it is worthless.</i></p><p><i>I think you all have already gotten a major concession in the whole Exile Haven.  Personally, I think it shouldn't exist either.  When I betrayed, I had to find a safe place to sleep, had to find a Mender who would be willing to help me, find a vendor willing to do business with me, and deal with the fact that I had no access to most quests, vault, brokers, and my house for the duration of the betrayal quests. </i></p><p><i>It was hard, but it was probably the most fun I have had in an MMORPG ever.  I was more involved with the game and my character than I had ever been.</i></p><p><i>I'm all for making things accessable to more people, but c'mon already, you already have it tons easier (Haven).</i></p><p><i>Don't betray if you don't want to pay the consequences.</i></p><hr></blockquote>Once upon a time, before they changed how level 1-19 worked, when you had to do class quests before level 9 and 19 respectively, there was no real penalty at all for betraying.  You kept your spells at the quality in which they were at when you left Qeynos/Freeport, and your armor wouldn't suddenly fall off you.  Of course, you had to do it before level 17.  Back then, the named mobs needed for the betrayal were all heroic.  Back then there were no option of mentoring.  Back then you didn't have to "relearn" your class once you finished the betrayal.So... Betrayal quest has gone from "doing the actual quest is the obstacle and hard part" and now heading towards "penalty for betraying is the obstacle"...  I think I preferred the hard/tedious quest over the harsh penalty.And also... Back then you could sneak into the opposite city without fear of being killed by epic guards.  Back then you could use the banks and merchants in the opposite city's hamlets, and sometimes talk to the quest NPCs and they would actually give you their quest.</div><p>Message Edited by Lenefir on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div>Why the change though the current system lets the fury keep her spells, but changes the sk spells into pallies. Ther eis no balance because the sk who becoems a paladin gets a new class where the fury who stays a fury only gets a new call spell.</div> <div>put it this way</div> <div> </div>It doesn tadd up no matter how much you debate it. Previosuly it never changed the fury why should it now.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>I may be incorrect, but it was my impression that the current system already worked this way. After betrayal is done all spells reset to app1 no matter what you do, stay the same class or not. This hasn't changed in the new quest, the only difference is that the current quest can only be done before level 18, so the hit isn't that bad. The result of the new quest is that most people over 20-30ish, won't do it. Which is fine. Some of us like being one of only a dozen or so of our race/class combo on our servers.<blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote: <div> </div> <div>And to say it gives betrayal a penalty is a farce sicne the previosu betrayal was a 1 day quest which required killign 3 named and a bunch of orcs or gnolls. hardly a penalty this exil system requires you to work faction and queests while living exiled for a short duration.</div> <div> </div> <div>there is no balance between the 2.</div><hr></blockquote>As someone that has actually done the quest, and recently, I have to call crap on this statement. The current quest SUCKS. Hard. You can't gain levels once you start it, everything, including the guards, in both the zones designed for your level range is KoS to you. The named mobs are total PITA. Killing 500 of the same mob is the boring to the point of crying tears of blood, no matter how you do it. The only merchants you have to drop the insane amounts of crap you get killing those 500 green/grey orcs are the ones that over charge you. You get fined gold if you screw up certain parts of the quest (a really big deal when you only have one or two to your name). It is NOT fun, and it is certainly more severe than you even begin to understand. There is a reason why there are only 9 Troll paladins on any given server, and the insanity of the current quest is the reason why.It took me almost 3 weeks of insane boredom, doing the exact same thing hundreds of times (login, check nameds, see none, kill orcs, check nameds, see none, camp, ad nauseum) to get done with it. And after all that was done, I lost all my spells and had to spend another 3 weeks doing stuff for cash/drops in order to replace them. My reward for that is that I am one of 12 of my race/class on my server. I don't want them to make betrayal ANY easier (in fact, I beleive difficulty should scale with level, it should be much harder for a higher level person to betray than a lower one). I don't want them to make it any less costly (this does scale with level, amen). The only thing I want them to change is that it should be more fun. It looks like that is EXACTLY what they are doing. And I, for one, applaud them for doing so. Everyone complaining about the app1 cost is simply asking for something for nothing, reward with no risk. Go play a game with cheatcodes.</div>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>electricninjasex wrote: <blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Look at it like lucan then, he was a paladin and he betrayed his god and hiscity/profession and had his powers stripped from his soul.The same is happening to you when you betray, it is not something you should take lightly.<hr></blockquote> I look at it like someone betraying from the United States to the Soviet Union or vice versa; the only skills that are abandoned are the ones incompatible with the new regime, and the cost is that you lose your home and friends (which alone is substantial). A scientist is still a scientist, but maybe a catholic priest or comrade political officer won't have as much do. Allowing an unlimited number of betrayals already shows that the game designer(s) don't take betrayal as seriously as you're making it sound.<hr></blockquote>It is not like changing your country in real life. There is NO comparison here to real life. This is a GAME. And as a game, that has multiple players, not just you, it has to be FAIR. To make it FAIR, they put all the same stuff in both cities, so that neither player has an advantage (it is not, therefore, like moving to russia fromt the US). To make it FAIR, they made it so that everyone can communicate with everyone (you are not, therefore, leaving your friends, as you are more than capable of still seeing/talkign to them easily, again NOT anything like your example). In this game, betrayal does not cost you Home or Freinds. If it does not have any cost, it would not be serious, and there would be 1000 Darkelf rangers on every server in a week. They want to prevent that, to do that they have to have a cost that is severe enough to prevent that. To make the GAME FAIR they have to apply that cost equally accross the board. This isn't about RP, this isn't an analogy for real life. This is a multiplayer game with no cheatcodes. In order for the game to remain healthy and fun for EVERYONE, they have to do things that individuals might not like.</div>

[Etherium]

<DIV>Heh.  I'm complaining that the cost is the same to betray and change classes as it is to simply betray and keep the same class.  </DIV>

[Etherium]

<DIV>Heh.  I'm complaining that the cost is the same to betray and change classes as it is to simply betray and keep the same class.  That does not seem right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit hit button to submit too soon*</DIV><p>Message Edited by Etherium on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dessellion wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KBern wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dessellion wrote: <div></div>Just curious.  Does this re-setting to App1 include the Master II choices you currently receive at 14, 24, 34 etc.  Because if so, whilst you can work hard and replace all those other Adept3s, Master1s, etc, once these babies are gone you won't be able to get them back. <hr> </blockquote> <p>I would think would have to give betrayers a full respec.</p> <p>That is a penalty you cannot make up as opposed to the spell levels and gear.</p> <hr> </blockquote>Thanks for that and that would certainly be the way I would think it should work.  Any chance of a developer confirming this to be the way their thinking is going?  As you say all other abilities, spells and armour can be regained.  It wouldn't be right if betraying removed an ability for all time.  Your character would then always be underpowered compared to someone who hadn't betrayed.<p>Message Edited by Dessellion on <span class="date_text">05-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>With the current betrayal, you get a free and automatic /respec, forcing you to reselect all race/class/level choices. I don't see why that would change. If anyone on test could confirm that it hasn't, I would appreciate it, as I have two more characters to send through betrayal.</div>

[electricninjasex]

The title of this thread is "Please reconsider resetting all spells to App1 if NOT changing class...".  Any comparison of Wizard-Wizard betrayal to Paladin-Shadowknight betrayal or similar is very likely to be irrelevant. Wizards from both cities learn and know the exact same spells and nothing whatsoever differentiates their skills.  And I don't recall ever once making any oath or pledge to Qeynos that placed my soul or my arcane abilities on the line; which means it makes no sense that I should have to lose either when betraying to Freeport.  If you know otherwise, spit it out and prove me wrong. It's fine to me that there is a price to be paid for same-class betrayal; but this is the incorrect price to be paid. <div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR>The title of this thread is "Please reconsider resetting all spells to App1 if NOT changing class...".  Any comparison of Wizard-Wizard betrayal to Paladin-Shadowknight betrayal or similar is very likely to be irrelevant.<BR><BR>Wizards from both cities learn and know the exact same spells and nothing whatsoever differentiates their skills.  And I don't recall ever once making any oath or pledge to Qeynos that placed my soul or my arcane abilities on the line; which means it makes no sense that I should have to lose either when betraying to Freeport.  If you know otherwise, spit it out and prove me wrong.<BR><BR>It's fine to me that there is a price to be paid for same-class betrayal; but this is the incorrect price to be paid.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There is no need to prove right or wrong, it is simply the way it is.</P> <P>Refer to my doctor example previously as to why this makes sense if you really need a logical reason for the reset when you dont change classes but change cities.</P> <P>Agree or not, it is the way it is, and it is fair....the betrayal is not about the class, it is about the city.  You are not betraying your class, you are betraying your city so any change in that is enough to warrant the reset for everyone of any class who chooses to do this.</P>

[Jal]

Id say be glad they dont reset you to level 1 again when betraying.

[MexStrat]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Id say be glad they dont reset you to level 1 again when betraying.<hr></blockquote>Now there is an idea that should have never even been mentioned.    LOLI have to say, there is no amount of logical(rp) explanation to this, no real world equivilancy, or stating of risk, punishment or deterent, that will ever convince the op that it is the right thing to do.  They want it the way they want and under no circumstance should it be any way else.</div>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>There is no need to prove right or wrong, it is simply the way it is.</p><hr></blockquote>If you're going to tell me something in the game is the way it is and there's no need to prove anything, then what are you adding to this thread?  Cheerleading for the devs? <blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<p>Refer to my doctor example previously as to why this makes sense if you really need a logical reason for the reset when you dont change classes but change cities.</p><hr></blockquote> Your doctor example is just flat-out wrong and self-contradictory. What you described are procedures of the society that change but do not alter the knowledge of the human body.  Guess what the knowledge of the human body corresponds to?  That's right, knowledge of spells.  Even procedures are alike between Qeynos and Freeport, the only difference is geography and abundance/location of NPC's that give quests! <blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<p>Agree or not, it is the way it is, and it is fair....the betrayal is not about the class, it is about the city.  You are not betraying your class, you are betraying your city so any change in that is enough to warrant the reset for everyone of any class who chooses to do this.</p><hr></blockquote> You're going to tell me it's fair and not even bother to qualify it?  You're telling me, "betrayal is not about the class, it is about the city", and then you're going to use that to justify why betrayal negatively impacts the class?  Do you even know what you're saying?

[KBern]

<P>I have many times given reasons as to why it is fair IMHO.</P> <P>You disagree in your opinion.  That is your right, but we don't have to agree obviously.</P> <P>Your opinion does not override others.  I disagree that my Doctor example is not spot on.  The doctor has much re-training both in language and procedures in the new society to practice their craft.  Everything is different but the base knowledge.  To me, that base knowledge are App1's and once you re-train, re-learn, and get certified, that is the re-acquisition of ad3's amd masters.</P> <P>You can attempt to nitpick details, but this is a video game and certain restrictions are suspended for the sake of the game, as in languages, certifications to practive your craft, or any number of other things.  How do you know your powers are not tied to the floating tower in FP as a FP mage, and if you move to qeynos, you need to re-align those powers to the qeynos mage tower in order to be as effective.  There can be any number of "reasons" soe can make up to justify it since this is a fantasy game.</P> <P>Bottom line, it is not changing.  If you cannot see the fairness in the same penalities for anyone who chooses to betray regardless of class, than that is up to you to grasp, not me.</P>

[vorek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR>Id say be glad they dont reset you to level 1 again when betraying.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would RATHER see this as the only option. </P> <P>You have NO business getting magically converted to a level 70 assassin after leveling to 70 as a ranger.</P> <P> </P> <P>As it stands, I agree with the system if we have to have one. You should pay horribly but betraying your city. In fact, I would like to see them take it a step further and remove all your personal status and all your personal status items. Betrayal SHOULD carry hefty penalties.</P>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>vorek wrote:<p>I would RATHER see this as the only option. </p> <p>You have NO business getting magically converted to a level 70 assassin after leveling to 70 as a ranger. As it stands, I agree with the system if we have to have one. You should pay horribly but betraying your city. In fact, I would like to see them take it a step further and remove all your personal status and all your personal status items. Betrayal SHOULD carry hefty penalties.</p><hr></blockquote>Nor should you start over at level 1, since the level 70 ranger is not a new adventurer. Even if it made the most sense, from a gameplay perspective, nobody would want to start over, and nobody would do the betrayal quest. Sometimes realism has to give way to fun. Why should you lose status items? Does the Queen or the Overlord come by and repossess everything before you leave? But if you want that penalty, feel free to delete your items and waste all your status points. If we really wanted realism, we'd be able to buy things from the opposing city, do quests there, and all races could choose to start wherever they wanted. Nor should it really be a "betrayal" quest - the only reason I started in Freeport was because the game forced me to, and RP-wise, my character never had any loyalty to Lucan (and several guilds are premised on loyalty to something other than the Queen or the Overlord). Realistically, it makes no sense that the only way I can buy certain items is to be a citizen. The easiest way would be to find a citizen who's willing to buy it for me, perhaps for a fee, but there's those pesky no-trade items. There's good gameplay reasons for no-trade items, but it's hardly realistic.<div></div>

[Lenefir]

<div></div>"Old" betrayal quest (before they changed how level 1-19 worked in a couple of live updates ago):<div align="left"><ul><li>Had to be started before you turned level 18.  Once started you could never level to level 18, but you accumulate surplus experience (capped at 220%).</li><li>Named mobs needed for the quest were all heroic (changed with a live update) and "Mentor" was a word that didn't exist (changed with a live update), though experience rate was slower (changed with a live update) making it more likely for you to find fellow people to help you with killing the named mobs.</li><li>You <i>finished </i>your betrayal by talking to an NPC out in Antonica or in Commonlands.  You were (obviously) still the same class (enchanter, warrior, shaman, etc), but might get a level or two if you had gotten surplus experience during the quest.</li><li>Since your class stayed the same before, during, and after doing the quest all your spells stayed at the same quality regardless if they were apprentice 1 or master 1 (though highly unlikely anyone had a master spell at that low level at that time).</li><li>You could visit the opposite city and get quests from NPC's, trade with the merchants and use the banks, though not sure about the brokers (all this were changed with live updates).</li></ul>So...  At that time there were <i>no penalty</i> for doing the betrayal quest (except for the time sink it was, but that goes for most quests, and a few gold if you answered a question wrong, but that could be avoided easily).Current betrayal quest (never did this so errors abound):<ul><li>Has to be started before you turn level 18.  Once started you can never level to level 18, but you accumulate surplus experience (capped).</li><li>Plenty of aggro guards around that are eager to make you a puddle on the ground.</li><li>One named mob needed for the quest is heroic, the rest are solo.</li><li>You finialize your betrayal by talking to your class trainer inside the city.  Once doing so all your spells are reset to apprentice 1 regardless if you are a neutral class and stay the same or switch to the opposite, or are forced to convert to the city spesific class.</li></ul>So...  The quest is made slightly easier to do without outside help, but the downside is you lose any updated spells you might have scribed and any class specific armor you might be wearing.  The impact is limited though when most people haven't twinked their character that much for those few levels.  The same time sink and a few gold for a wrong answered question are still there.New betrayal quest (never did this one either so errors abound):<ul><li>You can betray at any level.</li><li>Once started you are an Exile, and get a new "home town" called Haven with most of the facilities similar to any of the starting hamlets, and you will (and can) stay there until you have done enough faction quests to gain trust with either Qeynos of Freeport.</li><li>When you have enough faction you can continue the betrayal quest and finalize it by talking to the class trainer inside the city.  Once doing so all your spells are reset to apprentice 1 regardless if you are considered a neutral class and stay the same or switch to the opposite, or are forced to convert to the city spesific class.</li></ul>So... The quest is made entirely solo if you so wish, but the downside is you lose any upgraded spells you might have scribed and any class specific armor you might be wearing.  What happens to spells 51+ which normally don't have an apprentice 1 version I have no idea.-----What I fail to see, or any of you trying to explain in a manner for me to be convinced, is <i>why </i>there should be a <i>penalty </i>at all for doing the betrayal quest when there <i>originally was none</i>.  You can all try to come up with real life similarites, or roleplaying reasons for why or why not and other people can try to debunk them.  But someone, please explain to me and give a plausible reason for why there should be this change from it being "no penalty to betray" to "behing a harsh penalty to betray", and especially when as the original poster asked, you stay the same class.Why continue to have this harsh penalty just because the low level game mechanics changed one and a half year after the game was released and the quest seemingly just got a quickly tossed on ad hoc change.  Now that the quest has been remade from scratch, why not take the opportunity to look away from "betraying <i>have </i>to have a pentalty" especially when it never did originally (at least none that I can see), and let betrayal continue to just be a "fun" and optional thing for those that enjoy being a little more unique class and race combination, or just want to join their friends in the opposite city.  Or even if people just dislike their classes after 70 levels, why should it be such an harsh penalty?  Isn't possibly losing the armor enough?And for the record, I have no intentions of betraying as I have done it enough already.  Also <i>all </i>spells can fairly easily be changed from the class you are into the other class you can choose from or are forced into when betraying on a level-by-level basis.  It would just require a little more developer work</div>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div> <p>I have many times given reasons as to why it is fair IMHO.</p> <p>You disagree in your opinion.  That is your right, but we don't have to agree obviously.</p> <p>Your opinion does not override others.  I disagree that my Doctor example is not spot on.  The doctor has much re-training both in language and procedures in the new society to practice their craft.  Everything is different but the base knowledge.  To me, that base knowledge are App1's and once you re-train, re-learn, and get certified, that is the re-acquisition of ad3's amd masters.</p> <p>You can attempt to nitpick details, but this is a video game and certain restrictions are suspended for the sake of the game, as in languages, certifications to practive your craft, or any number of other things.  How do you know your powers are not tied to the floating tower in FP as a FP mage, and if you move to qeynos, you need to re-align those powers to the qeynos mage tower in order to be as effective.  There can be any number of "reasons" soe can make up to justify it since this is a fantasy game.</p> <p>Bottom line, it is not changing.  If you cannot see the fairness in the same penalities for anyone who chooses to betray regardless of class, than that is up to you to grasp, not me.</p><hr></blockquote> An adept or master spell is not a certification to use a spell, it is the actual knowledge of the spell.  A certification is granted by a higher authority; a spell upgrade is a random drop.  I will still one- or two- shot you with an Ice Nova master regardless of whether or not the laws "allow" me to or whether the surrounding NPC's "approve of it".  That's the world we grow up in and those are the expected mechanics of the universe that we bring to every game. Why not just apply to become a mod, lock every thread in the forum, and terminate them with another 2,470 cheerleader posts that say, quit discussing anything at all because nothing's changing? If you cannot see how this is just flatly wrong, it is not me who carries the greater handicap through the game.

[Killerbee3000]

in my opinion the downside of Betraying should be that you have to do a long and hard Quest and not loose all your money (because you have to buy your adpet 3's ans masters again). just my 2cp though

[Neave]

<font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><blockquote><hr><font face="Verdana" size="2">Golijee wrote: </font><div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I would love to betray from evil freeport to nice qeynos WITHOUT changing my class.</font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I am a level 70 fury with many 60+ M1's and all others A3.</font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Obviously, betraying is NOT AN OPTION as it is currently presented. There is just no way I would consider losing every single spell upgrade I have bought.</font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I would like to ask SOE to reconsider the reset if not changing class. </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Betraying is something that would be a fun option. I would enjoy doing the quest. I would enjoy getting a new home. </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I just dont understand why SOE would go to all the trouble of implementing this when very few (70's especially) would consider the penalty even remotely worth it.</font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font></div> <div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Please think about this!</font></div><font face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Aye Golijee, I absolutely agree. For those post level 60 this is a harsh punishment and not remotely enjoyable for players. I wanted to play a Dark Elf Defiler, but not in an evil city. However that option was not available at an earlier stage in the game. I really hope to be able to move to Kelethin when the doorway is opened, but prices and availability of spell upgrades at high levels are expensive and inconvenient to achieve, so the last thing anyone would want is to throw that away. Tis supposed to be a fun game after all, not a chore <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR>Why not just apply to become a mod, lock every thread in the forum, and terminate them with another 2,470 cheerleader posts that say, quit discussing anything at all because nothing's changing?<BR><BR>If you cannot see how this is just flatly wrong, it is not me who carries the greater handicap through the game.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why dont you make your own game, design it, and develop it, then you can make any rules you like that favor and cater to your choices?</P> <P>See I can be just as obstinate also.</P> <P>The ole fan boi excuse doenst always fly if you have no clue what I post in my "2000+" posts.  You will see I am far from being a fan boi.  Try a less overdone tactic if you want to make a point other then attacking the poster.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>Neave wrote:<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2"> Aye Golijee, I absolutely agree. For those post level 60 this is a harsh punishment and not remotely enjoyable for players. I wanted to play a Dark Elf Defiler, but not in an evil city. However that option was not available at an earlier stage in the game. I really hope to be able to move to Kelethin when the doorway is opened, but prices and availability of spell upgrades at high levels are expensive and inconvenient to achieve, so the last thing anyone would want is to throw that away. Tis supposed to be a fun game after all, not a chore <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Nor is that option available now, and it probably won't ever be. No Paladins in Freeport, and no Assassins in Qeynos. When Kelethin comes with the expansion, maybe they'll allow us to move there without losing spells, but that's something entirely separate from the betrayal quest between Freeport and Qeynos.<div></div>

[Lera]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Neave wrote:<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2"> Aye Golijee, I absolutely agree. For those post level 60 this is a harsh punishment and not remotely enjoyable for players. I wanted to play a Dark Elf Defiler, but not in an evil city. However that option was not available at an earlier stage in the game. I really hope to be able to move to Kelethin when the doorway is opened, but prices and availability of spell upgrades at high levels are expensive and inconvenient to achieve, so the last thing anyone would want is to throw that away. Tis supposed to be a fun game after all, not a chore <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Nor is that option available now, and it probably won't ever be. No Paladins in Freeport, and no Assassins in Qeynos. When Kelethin comes with the expansion, maybe they'll allow us to move there without losing spells, but that's something entirely separate from the betrayal quest between Freeport and Qeynos.<div></div>

[Neave]

<blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Neave wrote:<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2"> Aye Golijee, I absolutely agree. For those post level 60 this is a harsh punishment and not remotely enjoyable for players. I wanted to play a Dark Elf Defiler, but not in an evil city. However that option was not available at an earlier stage in the game. I really hope to be able to move to Kelethin when the doorway is opened, but prices and availability of spell upgrades at high levels are expensive and inconvenient to achieve, so the last thing anyone would want is to throw that away. Tis supposed to be a fun game after all, not a chore <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Nor is that option available now, and it probably won't ever be. No Paladins in Freeport, and no Assassins in Qeynos. When Kelethin comes with the expansion, maybe they'll allow us to move there without losing spells, but that's something entirely separate from the betrayal quest between Freeport and Qeynos.<div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900"><font size="2"><font face="Verdana">Aye, I realise that a Defiler can't live in Qeynos and have no desire to go there, I was just giving my example. I do hope I will be able to move to Kelethin though. Regardless of that, I still agree with Golijee that the punishment for betrayal is harsh (in relation to higher level players) and not even necessarily in keeping with roleplay. For the original quest, killing 500 gnolls/orcs was enough of a point that you were showing commitment. For me, the primary purpose of a game is to have fun and not spend hours acquiring spells I already acquired. </font></font></font><div></div>

[AcidNights]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Talk about sobbing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Don't betray.  Simple as that.  It's  not a right, it's an option.  An option you are obviously not willing to take if you have to pay any consequences.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>You might want to look up the difference between sobbing and debating...</P> <P>The concequences for betraying do not equal the reward....  Previously all you risked losing was 18 levels worth of spells....  Now for the exact same reward, you are losing 70 levels of spells... That's 300+% the punishment for the same reward.....  Just a little lopsided if you ask me....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Betrayal is not meant to be a reward.  It is not something you earn, it is not a reward.  It is irrelevant to compare what used to happen versus what happens now.  You get punished, as you should for betraying.  Just be happy you have that option at all.  They could make you delete and start over.

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>AcidNights wrote:<div></div>Betrayal is not meant to be a reward.  It is not something you earn, it is not a reward.  It is irrelevant to compare what used to happen versus what happens now.  You get punished, as you should for betraying.  Just be happy you have that option at all.  They could make you delete and start over.<hr></blockquote>Deleting and starting over would defeat the purpose of the quest, which isn't about changing class, but switching cities. Having to start over wouldn't allow you to play a froglok in Freeport or dark elf in Qeynos.</div>

[AcidNights]

<DIV>I think you are missing the point.</DIV>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AcidNights wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think you are missing the point.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep.</P> <P>Sarcams to make point FTW.</P>

[SwordsApprentice]

<DIV>I had read the posts... and got the impression most ppl aggree with the resseting spels to app1 to get the <STRONG>uber</STRONG> reward of changing the city!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what a waste of development time.. for players that have master spells.. </DIV> <DIV>Btw i have 18 t7 masters.. and i am not the only one.. Continue like this.. adding useless stuff in game .. and continue losing players against other games..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cent..</DIV>

[JPARTDQ]

<DIV>I don't think I've seen an answer to this yet...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will classes be able to betray that are offered in both cities and change class? Example... I'm a Warden, can I go to Freeport and become a Fury, or am I stuck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Bucky</DIV> <DIV>Antonia Bayle</DIV>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>JPARTDQ wrote:<div>I don't think I've seen an answer to this yet...</div> <div> </div> <div>Will classes be able to betray that are offered in both cities and change class? Example... I'm a Warden, can I go to Freeport and become a Fury, or am I stuck?</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Bucky</div> <div>Antonia Bayle</div><hr></blockquote>YesYou can change subclass between 2 of the same class (i.e warden or fury).If both exist in both cities, you can choose between them (warden and fury, dirge and troubador, bezerker and guardian, wizard and warlock).If a subclass only exists in one city, you will only have the choice to change according to the city where you go (i.e. shadowknight in Freeport or paladin in Qeynos, necromancer in Freeport or conjuror in Qeynos).You cannot change to a subclass that is not allowed in the city that is your desintation (i.e. you cannot be a Qeynos necromancer or a Freeport paladin).You cannot change to a subclass that is not of the same class or archetype as your current subclass (i.e. you cannot change from a Freeport necromancer to a Freeport coercer or a Freeport necromancer to a Qeynos fury).The 1 to 19 change allows you to choose your archetype, class, and subclass all at level 1.  They don't do away with the archetypes or classes completely.  There are still 4 archetypes with 3 classes each with 2 subclasses.  Of those, 1 class (2 subclasses each for a total of 8 subclasses) per archetype is present in both cities.  </div>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>SwordsApprentice wrote:<div>I had read the posts... and got the impression most ppl aggree with the resseting spels to app1 to get the <strong>uber</strong> reward of changing the city!!!</div> <div> </div> <div>what a waste of development time.. for players that have master spells.. </div> <div>Btw i have 18 t7 masters.. and i am not the only one.. Continue like this.. adding useless stuff in game .. and continue losing players against other games..</div> <div> </div> <div>Just my 2 cent..</div><hr></blockquote>So don't betray. Currently, you don't have that option, since you're already level 70, so you've lost nothing. Now you have a choice - do you stay in your current city, or do you give up the 18 masters? Someone who actually roleplays might choose to betray anyway, while someone who only cares about loot and XP probably won't. There's no reason why betrayal must come with no penalty, especially when it's an added feature.</div>

[SwordsApprentice]

<DIV>What a small mind you are..</DIV> <DIV>i dont go further</DIV>

[BlackBattie]

Wow, what an incredibly whiney thread.<div></div>

[vorek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SwordsApprentice wrote:<BR> <DIV>What a small mind you are..</DIV> <DIV>i dont go further</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope...gonna agree with the poster you seem to think is the small minded one here.</P> <P>You think that because you find it useless, everyone does. You should be wearing a pink neon sign that says SMALL MIND HERE.</P> <P>So you and your bragging about how many masters you have does what? Nothing. So you won't be betraying....big deal. You should really just quit completely. Since everything they add is useless.</P>

[vorek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AcidNights wrote:<BR> <BR>Betrayal is not meant to be a reward.  It is not something you earn, it is not a reward.  It is irrelevant to compare what used to happen versus what happens now.  You get punished, as you should for betraying.  Just be happy you have that option at all.  They could make you delete and start over.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Deleting and starting over would defeat the purpose of the quest, which isn't about changing class, but switching cities. Having to start over wouldn't allow you to play a froglok in Freeport or dark elf in Qeynos.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes it would because you would betray at a lower level and not be complaining about losing spells that aren't anything more than coin to replace. Coin is VERY easy to come by and with a little FORETHOUGHT, you could save and make/purchase all the spells you needed BEFORE you betrayed.

[SwordsApprentice]

<P>oh my.. i just made a comment to developers and for your info yeah i have quited already.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is in your minds ppl...</P>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>Why dont you make your own game, design it, and develop it, then you can make any rules you like that favor and cater to your choices?</p> <p>See I can be just as obstinate also.</p> <p>The ole fan boi excuse doenst always fly if you have no clue what I post in my "2000+" posts.  You will see I am far from being a fan boi.  Try a less overdone tactic if you want to make a point other then attacking the poster.</p><hr></blockquote> I could point my finger all around the game like a little child saying "Wats dis?  Wats dat?"  And like a self-imposed daddy, you'll say it's a game, but it's not my game, don't worry about it.  Wow, with a God Complex fluff answer like that you could justify closing down any thread in this website without another word in edgewise.   But the OP did not exclusively send his/her question as /feedback, nor did he/she ask YOU a yes or no question; rather as a discussion thread open to many here to discuss why and why not... and here barring a working argument comes the herald cry, "Just Because, So Shut Up."  You could be obstinate about a viewpoint, but here you choose to be obstinate about not having a viewpoint. Speak to the hand.<div></div>

[Devilsbane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lera wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The betrayal quest is not a class-change system. It's an alignment/city change, and certain classes are not allowed in each city. I'd like to see a class-change quest, but this isn't it.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Aye, that it is not. I would like to see a class change system that allowed us to start over at level 1. Yes we would still lose all are Adept III and Master spells. At least it would make sense. The betrayal system just doesn't make sense. It penalizes 60-80% of those betraying for the benefit of the rest who are forced to change their class.<BR>

[Kasar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jalek wrote:Id say be glad they dont reset you to level 1 again when betraying.<hr></blockquote>There'd be people crying about that not being fair too, as they'd still have access to their attuned gear when they reached the proper level.I don't know why someone would want to just change cities.  I guess an ogre zerker in FP might want to move, and the existing quest was a bit annoying.  It should continue to be, though three weeks is crazy, I did it the first time in three days while working during the day.  I was broke with no consumables left and pretty sick of it by the end, but that's how it should be.  Helped probably a dozen toons through since, some people've done it many times.</div>

[Lera]

<blockquote><hr>Kasar wrote: <div>I don't know why someone would want to just change cities.  I guess an ogre zerker in FP might want to move, and the existing quest was a bit annoying.  It should continue to be, though three weeks is crazy, I did it the first time in three days while working during the day.  I was broke with no consumables left and pretty sick of it by the end, but that's how it should be.  Helped probably a dozen toons through since, some people've done it many times.</div><hr></blockquote>For RP reasons, or because they'd prefer different surroundings, or to play a froglok/high elf in Freeport or dark elf/ogre/troll/ratonga in Qeynos, or just to buy the books and furniture and get the quests. <blockquote><hr>Devilsbane wrote: <div>Aye, that it is not. I would like to see a class change system that allowed us to start over at level 1. Yes we would still lose all are Adept III and Master spells. At least it would make sense. The betrayal system just doesn't make sense. It penalizes 60-80% of those betraying for the benefit of the rest who are forced to change their class.</div><hr></blockquote> I'm not sure where you get 60-80%, but if some lose their spells, then either all should or none should. They've chosen the former. Besides, it really only affects those levels 60-70, as everyone else is going to outgrow their current spells, and at that level, you're hardly hurting for money. <div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>Why dont you make your own game, design it, and develop it, then you can make any rules you like that favor and cater to your choices?</P> <P>See I can be just as obstinate also.</P> <P>The ole fan boi excuse doenst always fly if you have no clue what I post in my "2000+" posts.  You will see I am far from being a fan boi.  Try a less overdone tactic if you want to make a point other then attacking the poster.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I could point my finger all around the game like a little child saying "Wats dis?  Wats dat?"  And like a self-imposed daddy, you'll say it's a game, but it's not my game, don't worry about it.  Wow, with a God Complex fluff answer like that you could justify closing down any thread in this website without another word in edgewise.   But the OP did not exclusively send his/her question as /feedback, nor did he/she ask YOU a yes or no question; rather as a discussion thread open to many here to discuss why and why not... and here barring a working argument comes the herald cry, "Just Because, So Shut Up."  You could be obstinate about a viewpoint, but here you choose to be obstinate about not having a viewpoint. Speak to the hand.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Calm down anger boy.   I have not said once "close the topic, end of conversation." so take your angst and aim it where it belongs if this upsets you so much, at SOE.</P> <P>Neither of us design this game or make the rules.</P> <P>You disagree wiht the new betray set up, I don't.</P> <P>I have been discussing it, just because I totally disagree with you and give good examples as to why does not mean I am saying close the thread....that is in your small little angry mind. </P> <P>Continue to discuss why you are upset and why you think it should change, and i will continue to explain why it shouldn't.  I guess SOE agrees with me up to this point or it wouldn't be on test and ready to be released in 2 weeks time.</P> <P>You may change their minds before then, but I seriously doubt.</P> <P>You are the one who seems to think you own the thread and anyone who disgrees should move on, I have yet to say end of discussion, I just state facts as to the current and also add in my opinion why I agree with it, this is the way it is, and this is the way it is going to be at least until the next LU.  Prove me wrong or again, aim your angst somehwere else.</P>

[Saetyr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SwordsApprentice wrote:<BR> <P>oh my.. i just made a comment to developers and for your info yeah i have quited already.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is in your minds ppl...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm so glad you quited already.  Now I hope you quit too.  BETRAYING has to come with some negative impact, if you are lvl 70 then why betray anyhow? If you don't want to lose your Master I and Adept IIIs then don't betray.  If you think betraying is just dumb, then don't comment on it and definitely don't betray.  Small and closed minds are what is leading our world to the brink of disaster.  Why don't ppl understand that you don't get something for nothing.</P>

[Etherium]

<P>LOL - in order to avoid a bit of the sniping, let me preface this with this:  "I will not be leaving EQ 2 over this change."</P> <P> </P> <P>My point is that the cost to betray a city and move to the other is the same as both betraying and changing classes.  One is much more involved than the other, and yet both "cost" the same.  Yes, betrayal should have a cost to it.  Yes, I will likely pay that cost to be in the city with 90% of my guild for convenience sake.  But why should a berskerer lose skills that will be the same name, the same effect when he is still a berserker?  For a guardian changing class, this seems more fair/logical.  A guardian is going to learn new moves to become a berserker.  If this is the way it has to be, I will live with it.</P> <P> </P>

[Xarov]

<DIV>This new betrayal system is a load of crap anyways, if you wanted to make it TRULY FAIR ( instead of some half [Removed for Content] attempt at it ) STRIP EVERYTHING ( spells gear, home and money ) and start all over. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not then this is just some new fluff system that means squat , all its meant for is another time sink period</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to switch alliances thats fine, i dont see how ( from an RP standpoint ) that i would let you leave with your personal belongings and money ? i Would strip you of everything you own and toss your [Removed for Content] outside the city gates ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol if people want fairness, then make it TRULY FAIR </DIV>

[Cynto]

<P>Man I swear, you could tell some people that they just won a million dollars and they would complain that it wasn't TWO million dollars. *shakes head* There has to be SOME penalty here people, otherwise its trivial. Since it can be soloed by anyone at any level its got to be a monetary penalty, AKA: you lose your spells, etc. They can't make it so that if you keep your same class you don't lose your spells because they won't allow "good" classes to be in the "evil" city, and vice versa. It would be FAR more unfair for those that are FORCED to change class to be the only ones to lose their spells, simply because they're not a "neutral" class. If you can't handle the loss of your precious spells, then don't betray, because honestly with the KoS towers and SS docks it is extremely easy to meet up in one place or another in a quick manner, so the only reason for changing if you don't want a class change is just for asthetic reasons. If you can't handle the loss of your spells then I guess you don't really want to live in the other city, because you aren't willing to pay the penalty that everyone else has to pay, period.</P> <P>Some have said "well why don't they transfer over master spells etc to the other class for those that have to switch classes". The problem with this is, not all spells match up easily, the counterpart classes are similar yes, and some spells do match up, but many do not and I'm sure everyone would complain that "I should have gotten X spell master for Y spell master, not Z spell master! Jerks!" At some point someone would be unhappy about what spell masters they got in trade, and then they would have to go through the effort of creating a special set of zones that scaled in level so that it was an equal challenge to do the betrayal reguardless of level. Because otherwise it would be impossible for a lvl 15 to do, or pathetically easy for a lvl 70. Again, there has to be some form of penalty, or it would be trivial and you would have dark elves all over Qeynos and Halfling armies in Freeport. Betrayal is supposed to make you unique, otherwise they might as well just get rid of betrayal and let all races start in both cities.  Just be happy its not one that nerfs your levels to hell and back.</P> <P>Also, to the person who said that the old quest and the revamped old quest didn't penalize you at all must be somewhat sadistic in nature, because the 3 times I've done it have sucked, every, single, time, and took well over 2 weeks each time due to the named being missing or not being able to get help to kill them. Having it be that dificult is a relatively hefty penalty, sure, it probably dosn't cost you money, but you have no where to live and can't buy food/drink except for vendor fodder. And, if you consider it this way: If you were to go do the quest at level 17 like the old cap used to be it will be insanely easy now, as all the mobs are solo and you even get a special city, with brokers I might add, to live in while you work on them solo if you like. The difference is that now if you want, you can betray and even <STRONG>change your class without having to level up again</STRONG>, all the way up to level 70, which was NOT possible before. SoE has given you another option you didn't have before, sure it will cost you your spell upgrades, but before if you wanted to do that you had to level up a completely differen charachter from scratch and buy the new spell upgrades anyway, so quit whining.</P> <P>Oh, and BTW, the "some people want to be a DE/Paladin, Halfling/Necro, etc. and shouldn't be penalized for it!" arguement dosn't hold any water at all. If they really wanted to do that, and had it planned out from the get go, they could have, and still can do it before level 20 and have very little penalty since low level spell upgrades are cheap, and honestly not really needed all that much until the 20+ game. If they are level 30+, have lots of upgrades for spells and are saying they wanted to do it I call BS, because if they really wanted to it would have been planned out from the beginning, not some spur of the moment choice. Thats the reason for the spell penalty, its to stop spur of the moment changes, and to keep people from changing city with no penalty at all every other week.</P>

[Bi]

personally I think the difficulty should be the quest. If it must be so difficult that all your skills have to be reset to appr1, make it harder.imo skills should stay at their current level if they are still applicable(eg: gift of armament for crusaders would stay at w/e level, likewise with any other 'shared' spell - bria's for dirge/troubs) however class specific spells would disappear from the skill/spell book.It makes no sense that using the same toon changing city necessitates a complete reset of skillsets; other than not to overly penalise people who are changing subclass. imo the possibility of being able to change subclass necessitates the resetting of skillsets; you're learning a new way of doing things. I dont think the same is true from a same class perspective. (You can argue this point, but you can't relate lay on hands and harm touch comparably to greater regrowth and greater regrowth.)I think the quest itself should be the deterrent. I remember betraying right at the start of the game in nov 2004 or so, It was a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard quest; I betrayed fp->qeynos, and it took me about a week to get groups to kill the nameds that rarely spawned - and were usually white or yellow to me, the long camp for felzin, the clearing ph's for certain named. You could rarely find sam up, and finding a group as soon as he was up was difficult, because of his proximity to TS griffon he used to be killed for loot as soon as he spawned. It was a HARD quest, especially if you were a newbie (noone in my guild had made 30 by then, let alone 50) I hope the same difficulty goes into the QUEST rather than the penalty. There are enough penalties in this game without penalising what is essentially 'fluff' now. I can't think of one reason to be in FP rather than Q other than a couple of conflicting quest rewards in TT, and possibly a slightly easier griffon to TT to get to from Q, but who goes there when you can go to EL for 40s and a short boat ride, or instantly for 60s..<div></div>

[SwordsApprentice]

<DIV>Who said i quited becasue of betrayal quest lol.... and i posted maybe second time from the time a joined before 2 years to tell to developers to fix bugs... like crashing while zoning.. stucks on carpets and clouds .. and anyway those that play and respect that they pay for getting changes in every month.. ffs where are the good old days when eq2 was intruduced.. why i have done all access quests?...</DIV> <DIV>anyhoo i am tired even to explain ... same reason why i quited starwars.. changes are annoying... and many bugs are ignored...</DIV> <DIV>have fun betray to the other city.. </DIV> <DIV>i would have simply rolled another toon in the other city.. </DIV> <DIV>Oh and you know what imagine if they finaly make fp and q cities in war... finally lol... and you have to betray by force or quit your quild...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun ppl.. and continue bithing one another.. but imo you should have done to someone else and not one another..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/wave</DIV>

[Lera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xarovix wrote:<div>This new betrayal system is a load of crap anyways, if you wanted to make it TRULY FAIR ( instead of some half [Removed for Content] attempt at it ) STRIP EVERYTHING ( spells gear, home and money ) and start all over. </div> <div> </div> <div>If not then this is just some new fluff system that means squat , all its meant for is another time sink period</div> <div> </div> <div>If you want to switch alliances thats fine, i dont see how ( from an RP standpoint ) that i would let you leave with your personal belongings and money ? i Would strip you of everything you own and toss your [Removed for Content] outside the city gates ...</div> <div> </div> <div>Lol if people want fairness, then make it TRULY FAIR </div><hr></blockquote>And you'd have very few players that would ever do it, thus making it a waste of time to develop. Besides, if Lucan wanted to take all your gear, he'd have to find your first, and if that happens, you'd be dead - and that little sequence has been removed from the quest. And what if, RP-wise, Lucan <i>wanted  </i>you to betray - pretend to be one of those goody-goody Qeynosians and find out what they're up to over there? He wouldn't take your gear then, or at least he'd give it back later, but that's not part of the quest. Any game has to have a balance between realism and fun, and losing everything isn't fun, even if you're a low-level character. Part of the betrayal quest has always been that you get to experience both cities, with the penalty being you have to do a rather long and somewhat boring quest.There's a lot of things in this game that aren't realistic - no-trade items, for example, or being revived from death over and over, or that boss you killed last week also being revived from death over and over. Part of it's just the nature of an MMORPG, and part of it's to make the game fun for the vast majority of the players. Sure, there's a small segment of players who would enjoy permadeath - you die, the character's deleted and you start all over from level 1 - but if that was the standard rule, probably 99.9% of the population would quit, and then, no more EQ2.Maybe it's stupid to lose all your spells, but if some classes lose them, it's unfair to players who chose those classes if everyone doesn't lose them. It might make no sense RP-wise, but as a game rule, it's perfectly fair.</div>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lera wrote:<div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Maybe it's stupid to lose all your spells, but if some classes lose them, it's unfair to players who chose those classes if everyone doesn't lose them. It might make no sense RP-wise, but as a game rule, it's perfectly fair.</div><hr></blockquote>Hear Hear! If a rule effects one player (positively or negatively), it has to effect them all, otherwise it isn't going to be a good game for very long.</div>

[insen]

<P>I have said this once and I will say it again, This quest should be broken down into 2 parts.</P> <P>1) Class Change</P> <P>2) City Change</P> <P>I do not know if this has been answered before, but if I was to change my class from Fury to Warden <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>BUT </STRONG></FONT>want to stay in Freeport why would I have to rebuild faction within Freeport?  I never betrayed the Overlord .. in fact I am changing to better serve him....</P> <P>I for one would love to see ALL classes in both cities, But I am not asking for it to be an easy ordeal to do so.  Make the quest a pain in the [Removed for Content] so that not every one will do it, make the quest like the Claymore quest line very involved and need lots of help to complete it. </P> <P>The only problem I am seeing the Devs having is this. How do they make the quest line scale so that it is not grayed out?  The only thought that I have is that they will have to make several teirs of the quest and it must be completed before they go into the next lvl Tier.  And if they go into the next Tier they would have to start from Step one in the next tier line.  (but that is alot of work for the SoE Dev team. they have their hands full out sourcing the next adventure pack and expansion.)</P> <P>One of the great things about MMORPGs is that in a sence we the players have SOME (and I mean Very very very limited) control on the out come of the game. By posting threads and placing our thoughts we just MIGHT presuade the Dev team to make tweeks or use our thoughts to help better the GAME.</P> <P>70th Dirge / 70th Alchemist of Butcherblock</P> <P>"Freind, I do not spread rumors, I start them!"<BR>"Be weary in the presence of Dragons. Because you are crispy and tasty with <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>ketchup!"</FONT> </STRONG></P> <P>P.S. I do not plan on betraying or changing cities but I belivie that the option should exist for all players if they so choose. I just ask to make it A pain in the butt like they did way back when. And yes you never had spell placed to App 1 back with the old system because you still used the SHARED spells in Teir 1 and in Teir 2.  <FONT color=#66ff00>Preist --> Durid--> Fury</FONT> or <FONT color=#ffcc00>Preist --> Durid--> Warden </FONT>that is one of the reasons why I think that the system needs to be looked at again by the Dev team.</P>

[Rastaah]

I have a question, not 100% in line with the thread but about this subject. Can I use my wand of forgiveness or wahtever its called (the one that resets your masters) after betraying to get a chance at getting my masters back?Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[insen]

<DIV>You get one respect that you can use to get the master 2 choices and the other odds and ends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but I maight be wrong.</DIV>