Why the nerf of Dirges?

[LSUTigerFan]

<DIV>I just read the update notes, and I am quite concerned.  Are these changes just to the PVP servers or are they all of them?  If so why in the world are Dirge's being hit with a round of nerfs?  WE are one of the LEAST DPS of all classes.  We are constantly on the lower end of the DPS, and yet we are getting hit too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge: Lanet's Excruciating Scream - Changed into short duration daze effect that causes disease damage when it expires. The amount of damage was reduced. Reuse time increased to 30s.<FONT color=#99cc00>  I don't really see why you need to nerf this one.  I mean it takes 20s for the scream to take effect, and therefore is used only in soloing or on a very large mob.  Hell, I don't get to use it when I group, but it is a nice solo tool.  Not to mention it has been nerfed before by taking down the damage!  Why is the reuse time being increased?  Not like we use it 2 times in a fight anyway.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#99cc00></FONT> <DIV><BR>- Dirge: Garsin's Funeral March - Recast time increased to 45s from 30s. Overall break chance reduced to 25%.<FONT color=#99cc00> Why nerf a song that doesn't work that well in the first place?  I rarely use the song as it is highly resisted before this, and you normally only got 2-6 seconds with an adept 3 version of it.  It rarely works like it is supposed to and you want to nerf it more?  Why the increase time?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#99cc00></FONT> <DIV><BR>- Dirge: Sapping Shot - Recast time increased to 25s.<FONT color=#99cc00>  No need to up this one either.  We aren't really that great of toe to toe combat, so you want to take another small part of our DPS out by increasing the use of the very rare bow attacks that we do use?  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Again, why the nerfs to one of the LOWEST DPS classes out there?  Hell, I would take the above nerfs if you would increase our DPS overall.  Y'all really need to look at the Bards and see how far both are down in DPS, and esp Dirges as our DPS is really too low for what it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanell </DIV> <DIV>70 Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV>

[VericSauvari]

<blockquote><hr>LSUTigerFan wrote:<div>I just read the update notes, and I am quite concerned.  Are these changes just to the PVP servers or are they all of them?  If so why in the world are Dirge's being hit with a round of nerfs?  WE are one of the LEAST DPS of all classes.  We are constantly on the lower end of the DPS, and yet we are getting hit too?</div> <div> </div> <div>Dirge: Lanet's Excruciating Scream - Changed into short duration daze effect that causes disease damage when it expires. The amount of damage was reduced. Reuse time increased to 30s.<font color="#99cc00">  I don't really see why you need to nerf this one.  I mean it takes 20s for the scream to take effect, and therefore is used only in soloing or on a very large mob.  Hell, I don't get to use it when I group, but it is a nice solo tool.  Not to mention it has been nerfed before by taking down the damage!  Why is the reuse time being increased?  Not like we use it 2 times in a fight anyway.</font></div><font color="#99cc00"></font> <div>- Dirge: Garsin's Funeral March - Recast time increased to 45s from 30s. Overall break chance reduced to 25%.<font color="#99cc00"> Why nerf a song that doesn't work that well in the first place?  I rarely use the song as it is highly resisted before this, and you normally only got 2-6 seconds with an adept 3 version of it.  It rarely works like it is supposed to and you want to nerf it more?  Why the increase time?</font></div><font color="#99cc00"></font> <div>- Dirge: Sapping Shot - Recast time increased to 25s.<font color="#99cc00">  No need to up this one either.  We aren't really that great of toe to toe combat, so you want to take another small part of our DPS out by increasing the use of the very rare bow attacks that we do use?  </font></div> <div><font color="#99cc00"></font> </div> <div>Again, why the nerfs to one of the LOWEST DPS classes out there?  Hell, I would take the above nerfs if you would increase our DPS overall.  Y'all really need to look at the Bards and see how far both are down in DPS, and esp Dirges as our DPS is really too low for what it should be.</div> <div> </div> <div>Vanell </div> <div>70 Dirge</div> <div>Crushbone</div><hr></blockquote> Dude, the dev's don't reply to any bard related concerns. Other then nerfs we get no acknowledgment <div></div>

[chrno01]

<font color="FF6600"><b>On PvP server all stuns, stifles, roots, mezes...well basically all those control spells are already scaled down for pvp. Over half, a 24 second snare...12 seconds. a 6 second stun, 2 seconds ect. So actually these changes were all meant for PvE servers.</b></font> <div></div>

[Kyrsten]

Most Devs don't listen to much of anything on these boards, sometimes I honestly wonder what the point of the "In Testing Feedback" forum really is.

[Co]

 I'm going to keep this short and neutral.Bards are a forgotten class in this game. The fact that our AAs are still the way they are proves that. A rank 5 group invis... for months now... Hm. I really don't need to say any more. Don't worry, Bards are quitting in droves. Three of my friends just went to Station Exchange because of these changes (That, and the cumulative effect that has been telescoping since KoS). Fact is, we posted the feedback. It was deleted. Nobody read it. Nothing will change.Bards are now a "If you don't like it, reroll" class, becuase it's very obvious that feedbacking/bugging/privatePMing does nothing for us. But at least I have an instant cast group invis...<div></div>

[Evadne]

Scuse me for butting in here to this whine fest.  But I am a 67 dirge--on test where these changes have been made.  Guess what?  I hardly notice them.  I can do everything I could do before.  XevenDirge of Test<div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cohh wrote: I'm going to keep this short and neutral.Bards are a forgotten class in this game. The fact that our AAs are still the way they are proves that. A rank 5 group invis... for months now... Hm. I really don't need to say any more. Don't worry, Bards are quitting in droves. Three of my friends just went to Station Exchange because of these changes (That, and the cumulative effect that has been telescoping since KoS). Fact is, we posted the feedback. It was deleted. Nobody read it. Nothing will change.Bards are now a "If you don't like it, reroll" class, becuase it's very obvious that feedbacking/bugging/privatePMing does nothing for us. But at least I have an instant cast group invis...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yet I and everyone I know loves to have bards in the group, guilds are constantly short of them for raids, and everyone is constantly talking of how there just aren't enough of them.  I can't say these nerfs are good, but they are far from disastrous.  I think that you guys are really undervaluing yourselves.  Furthermore, my alt is a dirge, and for what it's worth he solos faster than my main which is a paladin.  Granted, he's much lower level and my main went through the areas he's in pre LU 13 so my assessment ias not scientific.  However, he is also less well equipped than my paladin (although probably well above average for the mid levels) so he could be doing even better.  A quick glance at the CAs and spells of high level bards reveals that they are quite capable of doing considerably more damage than I can do.  No it is not brigand or assassin damage, but it is far from being some of the "worst" as stated by somone above.  </div>

[Melo]

<DIV>Kylahn, true these changes will not affect our desirability in groups or raids. Nevertheless lowering our DPS is kind of silly. We are already pathetic. Since I always run a parser, I have some numbers (level 70 chars). In groups, my DPS average 330 while my 2 pally friends are at around 450 in defensive and 580 in offensive stance. Heck, even our gardian in defensive stance is out DPSing me. Most of the classes can solo heroics 5 levels below them, for dirges it is impossible. My best attack needs me to stealth prior I hit in the back of the mob. Our stun is just not long enough to give us time to stealth then cast our ability for any mobs one arrow up or more. And no, fear doesn`t help with that because feared mobs continue to hit on us making us visible before we got a chance at hitting in the back. When I fight toe-to-toe, my DPS is around 180. Kiting is very slow and not really a viable option with the mobs density out there. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our fear purpose is crowd control. The best I can do is sent a creature away (when it works) half the time, woot! Usually the feared mob stay close to us and continue beating on us. I would change this fear for a mez any time of the day. Breaking chance reduced to 25%? I couldn`t care less, it is not as if I could use it for fear kiting anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sapping Shot recast timer increased, give me a break. Its damage should be increased not lowered. You would expect this low damage on a lvl 30 ability not at level 70! It breaks if we move an inch while shooting. It is one of the few attacks I can do when I need to stay out of range of the AoEs of a raid mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are you trying to achieve here SOE? Dirge are not kings at kiting nor at DPS. We are supposed to be tier 2 DPS, yet all classes except clerics and shamies out DPS us. Get real!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Melo on <SPAN class=date_text>05-14-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:46 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Melo on <span class=date_text>05-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[Flor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melo wrote:<BR> <DIV>. ..................Most of the classes can solo epics 5 levels below them, for dirges it is impossible. My best attack needs me to stealth prior I hit in the back of the mob..................</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Interesting discussion here since I am very tempted to roll up a dirge.  Everyone loves dirges in a group and as one poster said, every guild and raid group seems to be looking for one.</P> <P>But I must comment on the post above which I snipped a bit.  I assume that you mean heroics and not epics?  Are people really soloing epics or was that a typo?  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Krooner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>Scuse me for butting in here to this whine fest.  But I am a 67 dirge--on test where these changes have been made.  Guess what?  I hardly notice them.  I can do everything I could do before.  <BR><BR>Xeven<BR><BR>Dirge of Test<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the words of encouragement partner.  Just once problem though.  SOE has a proven track record of ignoring test and going with something even more drastic on live.  What ever happens on test its more than likely going to be WORSE on live.<BR>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Fear for bards in EQ1 was such a great spell, maybe its reverse kiting they are scared of...but i mean come on....the spell sucks.  You cant even cast it on the run....there is no point to our bard fear other than a mez to help out in battle, and even then it can be risky.  The scream nerf really upsets me...i play a dirge in pvp and that spell kills off more runners than you would not believe.  The extra agility debuff is nice for for the extra -defense to somone.  This change will hurt our class in pvp if the daze effect doesnt live up to its name.  Adding more recast time and lowering the dmg on it  is a kick in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  One or the other. Give and take...not take take take.Them adding the 5 seconds to the bow shot was just to [Removed for Content] me off...i have no other explenation where they pulled this nerf out of their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...The dmg needs to be uped on it anyways, 1 auto attack from bow does twice the dmg as this pathetic CA.  The only thing great about it is the mana loss it causes in pvp and that isnt even game breaking.  Those of you on pve servers probably never even use it other than to start your bow attacks.  Anyway...thanks for listening to us devs! Great changes!  Im sure all us bards will love lu24....<div></div>

[LSUTigerFan]

<DIV>"Yet I and everyone I know loves to have bards in the group, guilds are constantly short of them for raids, and everyone is constantly talking of how there just aren't enough of them.  I can't say these nerfs are good, but they are far from disastrous."</DIV> <DIV>Kylahn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While we are still very much wanted in raids/groups, you didn't either read or understand the post.  We are at the LOW end of DPS of almost all classes.  While there are times I can get a higher DPS in a group, most of the time I am parsed just above the healers in the group.  I am not saying this nerf or any before it hurt our grouping ability or desirability.  We are very much needed for groups and very very much need for raiding guilds.  The reason we have low numbers is that our DPS is so low that we solo very slow.  Now in SOE's little "vision" I am sure they want everyone to group at all times, but that just isn't the case.  The above nerfs have nothing really to do with our grouping ability, but our soloability.  So, again...we are getting nerfs for our SOLO abilities while we are such low DPS as it is.  It makes no sense, but again this is SOE.  Not to mention I have seen pallys (and other classes) solo green heroics that I died 3/4 times trying to kill the same mob, same level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the the bard on test.  It's nice to know that this is hardly noticed at all.  I am sure since it takes 1 min to kill a green heroic, it will now take 1.5 mins.  Whoot....that isn't a nerf at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not saying our class is the worst, I am not saying that all is lost, but what I am saying it is really crappy that we are getting nerfed on DPS when we are already on the low side of the DPS scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanell</DIV> <DIV>70 Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV>

[Rambling Diatri]

<P> Funny how the one person in this thread not complaining has a dirge on test. I also have a Dirge on test, he's currentyl level 59. And the views people are taking on the changes they haven't tested is quite funny. So I'll clue you in as to the actual impact of the changes as they sit.</P> <P> Fear has become an even more powerful tool than it was before. Of course I have been using a master 1 version and have a pretty healthy intelligence. And I tend to use our poison debuff before throwing it. At this point, as long as I stay behind(seeing as feared opponents can still attack if line of sight is intact to the front or sides) I can manage to hit it with mulltiple combat art before it breaks. The normal toss in  being a sneak shot, racial strike, and flank shot, with part of those completing an HO before it breaks. Before the change I could mananage bout 2 shots max, now I've managed as many as 4 CA's along side a sneak, an HO, and multiple auto attack strikes.</P> <P> Lanet's. Yes the duration and damage of the spell were reduced but it is so much more powerful now that it truley amuses me to see people complaining. It used to be an Agi debuff with a nice proc at its end. Now its a short term pacify with less damage on the end. If you can't see the benefit of a short Pacify with less damage over an agi debuff with more damage, you may need to learn to play your dirge. Nothing greater than watching that mob do nothing but look at ya silly wishing it could attack  while you sink your debuff HO set, poor pacified beast. One might also note that damage is not causing a break on the pacify effect.</P> <P> As far as the bow ca is concerned. The change should only be felt in raid situations against heavy ae mobs where the dirges end up standing back with the casters. So unless you spend alot of time kiting mobs you'll never even notice, you'll only notice the change on the random odd epic mob.</P> <P> So you see, out of the 3 supposed nerfs, 2 of them actually made my dirge more powerful and efficient. And the 3rd I didn't even feel.</P> <P> </P>

[Lint26]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rambling Diatribe wrote:<BR> <P> Funny how the one person in this thread not complaining has a dirge on test. I also have a Dirge on test, he's currentyl level 59. And the views people are taking on the changes they haven't tested is quite funny. So I'll clue you in as to the actual impact of the changes as they sit.</P> <P> Fear has become an even more powerful tool than it was before. Of course I have been using a master 1 version and have a pretty healthy intelligence. And I tend to use our poison debuff before throwing it. At this point, as long as I stay behind(seeing as feared opponents can still attack if line of sight is intact to the front or sides) I can manage to hit it with mulltiple combat art before it breaks. The normal toss in  being a sneak shot, racial strike, and flank shot, with part of those completing an HO before it breaks. Before the change I could mananage bout 2 shots max, now I've managed as many as 4 CA's along side a sneak, an HO, and multiple auto attack strikes.</P> <P> Lanet's. Yes the duration and damage of the spell were reduced but it is so much more powerful now that it truley amuses me to see people complaining. It used to be an Agi debuff with a nice proc at its end. Now its a short term pacify with less damage on the end. If you can't see the benefit of a short Pacify with less damage over an agi debuff with more damage, you may need to learn to play your dirge. Nothing greater than watching that mob do nothing but look at ya silly wishing it could attack  while you sink your debuff HO set, poor pacified beast. One might also note that damage is not causing a break on the pacify effect.</P> <P> As far as the bow ca is concerned. The change should only be felt in raid situations against heavy ae mobs where the dirges end up standing back with the casters. So unless you spend alot of time kiting mobs you'll never even notice, you'll only notice the change on the random odd epic mob.</P> <P> So you see, out of the 3 supposed nerfs, 2 of them actually made my dirge more powerful and efficient. And the 3rd I didn't even feel.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for the reassurance, I for one am looking forward to the Lanets change, I'm hoping that the daze effect is as powerfull as it sounds. Can I ask what the duration is?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the fear nerf, its to be expected its not singling out bards here, its the entire CC nerf</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bow attack is pretty lame already and I personally don't use it much, except solo when I will pull mobs occasionally with it (though I tend to start of with a stealth attack). Dirges having been calling for this CA to be boosted for months without joy, it is pretty ridculous that a double arrow attack does half that of a normal ranged attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the dps, I usually manage 400-600 while going through HoF, I can be out dps'd by tanks (which makes me sad) but I'm too far behind the swashies and briggies out there so I guess I'm close to where I should be.</DIV>

[Rambling Diatri]

<P> The pacify effects lasts 8 seconds. And totally rocks. Try pulling with the bow, casting lanets as the come in. Do an HO using Daros and the agi/str debuff. That should finish right before the Pacify wears off. Immidiately toss in cheapshot to a sneak back stab and a flank shot(if ya got the timing perfect). Otherwise toss in the snare snare with  poison debuff, fear 'em and nail a flank and and HO. At which point you have a nicely neutered, half dead mob waitin' to be finished! With you at full health ta boot.</P> <P> I may notice the bow nerf less than most, course I have a pristine imbued legendary long bow which seems to just love procing alongside that CA, really helps add to that damge on those pulls I occasionally use it for.</P> <P> </P>

[Lordviperscorpian]

Well if the pacify doesnt break while being damaged then the spell could be very useful.  Thats good to know that at least it isnt gimped.  I still wish theyd leave the dmg alone.   I cant wait to try it out in pvp reguardless if thats true.<div></div>

[Co]

<div></div>It's not an issue of this singular nerf, it's the overall issue that the class already needs work and they just continue to beat it down. Oh, and as for Xeven. I think you need to take a better look at your class and really understand what these changes are doing. These changes will have a big effect on Raid dps especially. Not sure if you've tested it completly in a raid format, but calling everyone whiners because you don't notice the big change is a bit premature don't you think?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Cohh on <span class=date_text>05-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:28 PM</span>

[Evadne]

Perhaps it is premature. But I did not see anything that resembled concerns so much as whining.  The fact remains, on test we are working hard to give solid feedback to the devs, and make our voices heard over the din of panic.  The health of the game is at stake long term.  I found the heart of this thread to be centered in ignorance.  The changes I have noticed have been positive over all.  What else can I say?  To be honest, I have not tested it in a raid format.  So, I will give you that point.I just hate people to scream nerf in a crowded room, people get hurt for no reason.~Eva<div></div>