Seems ridiculous to me...

[Rendoir]

<DIV>So - a defiler decides to betray FP, and go to Qeynos. He goes through the rigmarole of the betrayal quests. Somewhere in the process he transforms into a mystic, and becomes superdumb, having all his masters drop to noob level spells. It seems pretty ill-conceived to me. Why do we suppose that just because a class betrays they automatically give up ( from an RP point of view) a lifetime's dedication to their chosen path?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - if a Russian Carpenter betrayed the cccp and headed West to the States - when he get's there, he is not an American Electrician, he is still a Russian Carpenter. Seems very simple to me. Sure I know people are going to say </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. You have to pay a price for betraying ( you pay that price when you have to decide which inventory items you will take with you: when you leave behind all you friends and business contacts.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Nothing is supposed to be easy ( well the difficulty here should be in the QUEST, not in re-equipping your toon when you eventually finish it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, someone give me a valid argument as to why it seems reasonable that spells should drop to apprentice1 level? And as to Why equipment that may be class specific - but which a toon may have been wearing for god knows how long suddenly no longer fits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BarryT]

<P>The penatly is harsh I agree with you there. </P> <P>Reasons for; Well I shall take a guess:</P> <P>Lets take Defiler as per your example as the case study. I would say that Defiler is a role, very much like choosing a Diety or Religion, you have chosen to follow that particular line. </P> <P>When it comes to betraying to become a Mystic <STRONG>imo </STRONG>it is like changing your fundemental beliefs. Therefore you need to start at the begining (In this case App1 spells). It is a fresh begining, a new start almost a rebirth under your new chosen path.</P> <P>So to conclude the reason you do not keep your current level spells would be <EM>that</EM> change in belief, the passing of your past belief in the Defiler line to change and accept the way of the Mystic.</P> <P>-</P> <P>As for armour, well I guess in betraying you must grow an extra limb or something lol. I can't give an argument for that one.</P>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>BarryT wrote:<div></div> <p>The penatly is harsh I agree with you there. </p> <p>Reasons for; Well I shall take a guess:</p> <p>Lets take Defiler as per your example as the case study. I would say that Defiler is a role, very much like choosing a Diety or Religion, you have chosen to follow that particular line. </p> <p>When it comes to betraying to become a Mystic <strong>imo </strong>it is like changing your fundemental beliefs. Therefore you need to start at the begining (In this case App1 spells). It is a fresh begining, a new start almost a rebirth under your new chosen path.</p> <p>So to conclude the reason you do not keep your current level spells would be <em>that</em> change in belief, the passing of your past belief in the Defiler line to change and accept the way of the Mystic.</p> <p>-</p> <p>As for armour, well I guess in betraying you must grow an extra limb or something lol. I can't give an argument for that one.</p><hr></blockquote>Neutral classes just have to take the penalty because otherwise everyone would be complaining abot unfairness.</div>

[vagrant13]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rendoir wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, someone give me a valid argument as to why it seems reasonable that spells should drop to apprentice1 level? And as to Why equipment that may be class specific - but which a toon may have been wearing for god knows how long suddenly no longer fits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1.  Because what is my brigand to do with a swashbuckler master?  Just becuase the classes have similar spells, that doesn't mean they are the same.  And some spells are all together different.  Your character doesn't become super dumb all at once.  They just don't know the new class's equivalent spells yet.  Think of it as switching jobs in the same profession.  It takes a little while to adjust to new things, even if you know all the fundamentals behind what you are doing.</P> <P>2.  Because it's class specific.  Some may contain bonuses for a specific class that others aren't supposed to enjoy.  Think of it as a uniform.  If you get traded from one basketball team to another, you wear a different uniform do you not?  Even though the old one still fits.</P> <P>If you don't like it you really don't have to betray.  Its not all THAT bad.<BR></P>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rendoir wrote:<BR> <DIV>So - a defiler decides to betray FP, and go to Qeynos. He goes through the rigmarole of the betrayal quests. Somewhere in the process he transforms into a mystic, and becomes superdumb, having all his masters drop to noob level spells. It seems pretty ill-conceived to me. Why do we suppose that just because a class betrays they automatically give up ( from an RP point of view) a lifetime's dedication to their chosen path?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - if a Russian Carpenter betrayed the cccp and headed West to the States - when he get's there, he is not an American Electrician, he is still a Russian Carpenter. Seems very simple to me. Sure I know people are going to say </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. You have to pay a price for betraying ( you pay that price when you have to decide which inventory items you will take with you: when you leave behind all you friends and business contacts.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Nothing is supposed to be easy ( well the difficulty here should be in the QUEST, not in re-equipping your toon when you eventually finish it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, someone give me a valid argument as to why it seems reasonable that spells should drop to apprentice1 level? And as to Why equipment that may be class specific - but which a toon may have been wearing for god knows how long suddenly no longer fits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As a defiler, I have one spell in common with mystics, and that's my level 35 Bloodlines spell.  Every other spell is different.  I'm not planning on betraying this character, but if I did, it seems perfectly intuitive and reasonable to me that my defiler spells would no longer work if I became a mystic.  I'm not sure what the issue or confusion is - these are different spells with different names that do different things, the subclasses are more like cousins than siblings.  The debuffs are completely different between these subclasses, these are not just renamed spells with slightly different flavors - they are very different in most cases, received at different levels, and are used based on different strategies and circumstances.  </P> <P>A defiler changing to mystic would have to relearn how to play his new subclass at raids, because different techiques and strategies would apply, in addition to significant time needed to learn the new spells and what they do.  These two subclasses are just played differently and are often used in different ways, especially at raids.</P> <P>I am planning on betraying my necro to a conjuror, however, and in that case, it also seems perfectly understandable that I will lose FD and pick up CoH.  Your example falls apart here, because why would I lose an innate skill if I only moved between countries.  No, I'm doing much more than that, I'm changing countries and all spells.  So assuming I moved from Russia to the US and lost the ability to FD (lol), I would very much understand having to go to the local Spells-R-Us and needing to purchase a new CoH scroll (lol again).  </P> <P>Your analogy between American Electricians and Russian Carpenters isn't valid, and there is no easy parallel you can draw between RL and the game in this case.  The best example I can think of would be if a podiatrist moved here from another country and wanted to become a plastic surgeon instead.  Sure, there is some common medical training, both would probably know how to do CPR, but would you expect the specialized knowledge, skill and techniques to transfer?  No, of course not, and you probably wouldn't want the podiatrist giving you a nose job without proper certification and training.</P> <P>And that's what happens with betrayal - the spell penalty (1) is a penalty, a known-in-advance cost of betrayal, you only have to pay this cost if you betray, but also (2) involves the fact that all the spells are different, and you start over as a noob in your new subclass with all app 1s.</P> <P>Of course, everything I argue above fails when a guardian (or any other class that exists in both cities) betrays from Qeynos to Freeport, or vice versa.  Then they keep the same subclass, but all their spells are reset to app 1s.  In the case of city-only betrayal without any class change, I agree with you that the spell reset is purely a penalty, and simply a cost of betrayal.</P> <P>But it also seems reasonable to me that you will no longer be able to equip subclass-specific gear when you change to a different subclass.  The ONLY gear I can think of that will be affected by this is relic armor and some class hats.  The mystic and defiler class hats are the same, so a betraying defiler wouldn't even need to replace a class hat obtained from the Vault.  Because the graphics of all the relic armor is different, I'm ok with defilers looking like defilers, rather than mystics looking like defilers.  But when you've advanced your toon to the point your guild has given you several relic pieces, I seriously doubt many players would betray to the opposing subclass anyway, or vice versa, because their raiding role would also change, and I just can't think of many situations where that would make sense. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[retro_guy]

I'm not all that happy with the whole betryl  system as proposed. The only reason I would betray, would be to do any of the noob quests in Freeport, that I was blocked from doing because I am from Qeynos. I would betray back to Qeynos afterward, and return to being a Conj. My feeling is that this is a hangover from PVP, where the 2 cities must be kept totally separate, so having an evil conj and a good necro is just not in SOE's vision. But in the PVE game, why can't a conj go bad or a necro see the error of their ways?? There should be a point in the quest where you can choose if you want to change class (and drop to app1 spells) or stay as you class and be and evil/good version instead. <div></div>

[Leawyn]

I think one of the main reasons for this (aside from roleplaying reasons) is to prevent people from changing back and forth for whatever suits their needs. Hrm.. guild just lost one of the high playtime conjurors and we need a new one? Look we have 3 necros, make one of them change!  OOPS! That conjuror changed his mind and wants to come back. Nevermind, go back to being a necro! I dunno, I actually know quite a few people who are planning on betraying at level 70. Some have the support of their guild (for a class that is lacking, but their counterpart is overstaffed), some have been saving masters and making adept 3's in anticipation. The reasons for betrayal are numerous. I, for one, would betray to FP in a heartbeat if -- AND ONLY IF -- i was able to stay a Paladin. I love the paladin class. I just detest Qeynos lol! <div></div>

[Pouncer74]

<P>Its an example of where a game mechanic is more important than imitating real life.  </P> <P>Explain how we carry 8 huge wooden boxes around with us while fighting.</P> <P>Betrayal needs a penalty to make it undesirable for all except those truely dedicated.  Also not all classes can translate spell for spell so it would be a nightmare figuring out which masters go to which masters for say a zerker to a guardian or a ranger to an assassin.</P> <P>I am very happy with the plans.  Great work devs!</P>

[Jal]

Just a question, if youve spent the time and money to get masters/relic for a class why do you even want to betray?Surely if you dont like the class you'd reroll since its probably easier to regrind than to get full masters/relic.I like the penalty as it stops people randomly betraying their high level characters to buy a city specific status item but gives options to those willing to take the hit.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rendoir wrote:<BR> <DIV>So - a defiler decides to betray FP, and go to Qeynos. He goes through the rigmarole of the betrayal quests. Somewhere in the process he transforms into a mystic, and becomes superdumb, having all his masters drop to noob level spells. It seems pretty ill-conceived to me. Why do we suppose that just because a class betrays they automatically give up ( from an RP point of view) a lifetime's dedication to their chosen path?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - if a Russian Carpenter betrayed the cccp and headed West to the States - when he get's there, he is not an American Electrician, he is still a Russian Carpenter. Seems very simple to me. Sure I know people are going to say</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. You have to pay a price for betraying ( you pay that price when you have to decide which inventory items you will take with you: when you leave behind all you friends and business contacts.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Nothing is supposed to be easy ( well the difficulty here should be in the QUEST, not in re-equipping your toon when you eventually finish it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, someone give me a valid argument as to why it seems reasonable that spells should drop to apprentice1 level? And as to Why equipment that may be class specific - but which a toon may have been wearing for god knows how long suddenly no longer fits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Simple answer is you are not the same class anymore.  A conjuror is not a necro.  If one wants to betray....they need to re-learn the class.</P> <P>It is better than making you start at level 1 I guess.</P> <P>The technical reason and non RP is they want it that way.</P> <P>The RP reasons are obvious and you can think of something being defiler specific as unholy and against what a mystic would wear, hence why it was limited to one class only to begin with.</P> <P>You can ask your question in a reverse and say why should any gear be class specific....if a mystic can wear it, why cant a defiler even before you betray...so if there is class specific stuff to begin with...it wont change with you.</P> <P>They dont want people making these decisions lightly and this is two ways (spells and gear) to make people really think about changing before they do.<BR></P>

[Jezekie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pouncer74 wrote:<div></div> <p>Also not all classes can translate spell for spell so it would be a nightmare figuring out which masters go to which masters for say a zerker to a guardian or a ranger to an assassin.</p><hr></blockquote>Most or all classes recieve the same number of spells, if you compared within Archtypes you'd see that there's a counter for just about every spell in the lineup. So the whole argument is pretty much invalid in that regard as it can't be terribly difficult to set it up such in a way that it merely checks the level of said spell and the rank of it, and then gives you the counterpart spell of the class you're bretraying to at same level.Monk going to bruiser, monk has donky monky punch app4 at lvl 54, betrays to be a bruiser and at lvl 54 bruisers have dragon turtle spinning backfist attack, and the monks attack then gets converted to the dragon turtle spinning backfist attack at app4. (Imaginary skill examples)</div>

[Leawyn]

<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:<div> Most or all classes recieve the same number of spells, if you compared within Archtypes you'd see that there's a counter for just about every spell in the lineup. So the whole argument is pretty much invalid in that regard as it can't be terribly difficult to set it up such in a way that it merely checks the level of said spell and the rank of it, and then gives you the counterpart spell of the class you're bretraying to at same level. </div><hr></blockquote>So how do you take into account Pally spells like: Amends Sigil Castigate Consecrate From looking at the SK lineup, there are no spells that are remotely close to what these spells do. Or for necros: Charm Undead Feign Death Lich Rez Ok, *MAYBE* COH can cover FD, but what about the rest? They are completely different classes, and while some skills MAY transfer over (pets, pet buffs, self buffs, etc) there are simply too many specialized spells/CA's to have to sift through and decide which will correspond with the other.<div></div>

[Aienaa]

<P>Or how about evil Troubador to good Troubador....  Or Good Dirge to Evil Dirge.....  Or Evil Fury to Good Fury....  Opps sorry, that doesn't fit the whole new class mold.......</P> <P> </P> <P>Some people do not want to betray cities due to wanting to change classes....  For example....  On my server about 80% of the population resides in Qeynos, Me being an Assassin resides in Freeport....  The market in Freeport totally blows....  Finding Tradskillers in Freeport totally sucks....  So why is it that I live in freeport?  Because I am forced to because of my class....</P> <P>Up till the PvP changes, I used to have my house in North Qeynos....  But, since they added the PvP (which was NOT suposed to interfere with PvE servers) all the guards in North Qeynos will now kill me on sight...  Not like I would stand much of a chance aginst a Lev 70 Epic X4...</P> <P>So, I chose to be an Assassin and because of that I am exiled to Freeport... Living in Freeport was not my choice....  So, because I want to play the Assassin class I am penalized by being forced to live in Freeport where the market sucks and you can't frind tradeskillers to save your life....</P> <P>Like someone said previously, in RL you would not be able to fight if you were waddling around with 6 huge boxes on you, but it is something they allowed....  On the otherhand, from a RP perspective, not everyone (pretty much no one would know) in Qeynos would be aware of the fact that my character was an Assassin, as that is not information that I would be giving out freely...  I could be posing as a Ranger in order to live in Qeynos....  </P> <P>The only reason I would even consider betraying would not be to change classes, but to live in Qeynos where 95% of my guild is from and to have access to the market and tradeskillers in Qeynos....  It's not the Queen or the Overload that has granted me my skills, it was the dedication that I put into the class that granted me my skills and it's not something that I would likely forget if I were to betray a city...  There is no penality for living in Maj'dul, so doing betrayal from 1 city to the other without changing class and losing all your spells make absolutly no sence at all....</P> <P>I can however see losing your spells if you changed class...  You are no longer using what you have learned from the very begining and picking up a totally different set of skills, so it makes sence that you would lose all your current spell levels and learn your new trade....</P> <P> </P> <P>Flame me all you want... I'm just showing you that there are other reason to betray besides wanting to change you class... This game does not have to be all about penalizing players....  so what if someone preferes to live in Qeynos rather than Freeport....  This isn't PvP where there is suposed to be such hatred between cities....  What difference does it really make in the PvE game??  None at all....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 63 Troubador</P>

[Leawyn]

<blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div></div> <p>I can however see losing your spells if you changed class...  You are no longer using what you have learned from the very begining and picking up a totally different set of skills, so it makes sence that you would lose all your current spell levels and learn your new trade....</p> <hr></blockquote> With the above statement, the only major flaw is that people who are forced to go to app 1's would feel (rightfully, IMHO) that it was unfair that those who don't have to change classes don't have to suffer the same penalty. Its all or nothing in this case. Other than that, i agree with some of what you said. As a Paladin, I LOVE the class, but I do not like Qeynos. Its laggy and way to "happy" for my liking. I raised a necro first and became quite comfortable in FP, so I would love the ability to move to FP without losing my class. I'm holding out hope for the new expansion offering a new starting city. Maybe it won't be as laggy (yeah right lol!) or will be more to my liking than Qeynos is. <div></div>

[Jezekie]

<div><blockquote><hr>Leawyn wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jezekiell wrote:<div> Most or all classes recieve the same number of spells, if you compared within Archtypes you'd see that there's a counter for just about every spell in the lineup. So the whole argument is pretty much invalid in that regard as it can't be terribly difficult to set it up such in a way that it merely checks the level of said spell and the rank of it, and then gives you the counterpart spell of the class you're bretraying to at same level. </div><hr></blockquote>So how do you take into account Pally spells like: Amends Sigil Castigate Consecrate From looking at the SK lineup, there are no spells that are remotely close to what these spells do. Or for necros: Charm Undead Feign Death Lich Rez Ok, *MAYBE* COH can cover FD, but what about the rest? They are completely different classes, and while some skills MAY transfer over (pets, pet buffs, self buffs, etc) there are simply too many specialized spells/CA's to have to sift through and decide which will correspond with the other.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You missed the point entirely. I said there's just about the same amount of spells/combat arts available between two classes branching from the same subclass, ie. Monks & Bruisers, that doesn't mean that they are the same or even similar effects. But both subclasses gets a spell/combat art at 52, 55, 58, and has the same amount of spells from 61-70. It shouldn't be outside of the realm of possibilities to convert said spells to app1 or higher when you betray if you previously own your own spell at the same level.Bruiser Ability / Monk ability61 = Dropkick / Leaping Tiger62 = SomethingOrOtherHitAlot attack, Flailing Centipede63 = Blistering Fists / Quiescent Blessing63 = Slap Around / Crescent Strike64 = Oppress / ChallengeBruiser64 = Rumble65 = Rabid Cry65 = Knockout Combination66 = Callous Stomp66 = Scared Still67 = Blazing Lunge68 = Hardened Skin68 = Vigorous Spirit68 = Battle Frenzy69 = Steel Fist69 = Tenacious Will70 = Savage Bruising70 = Eye GashMonk64. Soaring Dragon65. Swift Calm65. Dragon Breath66. Punishing Cobra67. Soaring Eagle68. Spirit like Mountain68. Focal Serenity68. Mountain Stance69. Assailing Jaguar69. Will of the Heavens70. Storm Advance70. Silencing Palm</div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jezekiell wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Most or all classes recieve the same number of spells, if you compared within Archtypes you'd see that there's a counter for just about every spell in the lineup. So the whole argument is pretty much invalid in that regard as it can't be terribly difficult to set it up such in a way that it merely checks the level of said spell and the rank of it, and then gives you the counterpart spell of the class you're bretraying to at same level.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So how do you take into account Pally spells like:<BR><BR>Amends<BR>Sigil<BR>Castigate<BR>Consecrate<BR><BR>From looking at the SK lineup, there are no spells that are remotely close to what these spells do.<BR><BR>Or for necros:<BR>Charm Undead<BR>Feign Death<BR>Lich<BR>Rez<BR><BR>Ok, *MAYBE* COH can cover FD, but what about the rest?<BR><BR>They are completely different classes, and while some skills MAY transfer over (pets, pet buffs, self buffs, etc) there are simply too many specialized spells/CA's to have to sift through and decide which will correspond with the other.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You missed the point entirely. I said there's just about the same amount of spells/combat arts available between two classes branching from the same subclass, ie. Monks & Bruisers, that doesn't mean that they are the same or even similar effects. But both subclasses gets a spell/combat art at 52, 55, 58, and has the same amount of spells from 61-70. It shouldn't be outside of the realm of possibilities to convert said spells to app1 or higher when you betray if you previously own your own spell at the same level.<BR><BR>Bruiser Ability / Monk ability<BR><BR>61 = Dropkick / Leaping Tiger<BR>62 = SomethingOrOtherHitAlot attack, Flailing Centipede<BR>63 = Blistering Fists / Quiescent Blessing<BR>63 = Slap Around / Crescent Strike<BR>64 = Oppress / Challenge<BR><BR>Bruiser<BR><BR>64 = Rumble<BR>65 = Rabid Cry<BR>65 = Knockout Combination<BR>66 = Callous Stomp<BR>66 = Scared Still<BR>67 = Blazing Lunge<BR>68 = Hardened Skin<BR>68 = Vigorous Spirit<BR>68 = Battle Frenzy<BR>69 = Steel Fist<BR>69 = Tenacious Will<BR>70 = Savage Bruising<BR>70 = Eye Gash<BR><BR>Monk<BR><BR>64. Soaring Dragon<BR>65. Swift Calm<BR>65. Dragon Breath<BR>66. Punishing Cobra<BR>67. Soaring Eagle<BR>68. Spirit like Mountain<BR>68. Focal Serenity<BR>68. Mountain Stance<BR>69. Assailing Jaguar<BR>69. Will of the Heavens<BR>70. Storm Advance<BR>70. Silencing Palm<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think what you are missing is we can talk about what they can do all day, but I think they CHOSE not to because they want this to be a decision that is not taken lightly.</P> <P>They want a penalty, distasteful word, but there it is....for making this decision.</P> <P>So the people who do choose to do this will do so because they REALLY want to be that other class and that desire outweighs the negative impact of losing some gear and spell upgrades.</P> <P>Just my opinion and I think a dev said something along those lines already, but not sure.<BR></P>

[Rijacki]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div></div>Up till the PvP changes, I used to have my house in North Qeynos....  But, since they added the PvP (which was NOT suposed to interfere with PvE servers) all the guards in North Qeynos will now kill me on sight...  Not like I would stand much of a chance aginst a Lev 70 Epic X4...<hr></blockquote>The PvE (attackable) guards in the cities was something that was requested even since Beta.  It has zero to do with PvP, it was just implemented on both types of servers at the same time (and deemed "heating up the cold war").  I know a lot of 100% PvE people who are exceptionally overjoyed about the ability to attack the opposing city's guards.  With my character on Guk, I did spend some time killing the guards in the Commonlands because I could (and it does fit somewhat to her character), something I would not have been able to do prior to the change.</div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>The associated penalties are fine as far as i am concerned.  This game has way too many easy things in it that they dont need to add peanalty free betrayel.   They are giving us a chance to betray at any level which is a awesome change to having to betray before level X as before.  You have 2 choices with their decision Betray or Not Betray, live with the decision and save your compalints for class spells or abilities that need fixing or buggy quests or bad loot tables...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  For the people that want automatic conversion of their class specific masters/adepts to the opposite class or city, would you like to have instant experience by clicking your persona button or a rewind button to avoid a death?  Grow up and take responsiability for your choice, decide if it is truely worth losing the gear and spells and the timesink to betray to the other city.  One question i wonder tho is do you lose your AA points when betraying or if it resets the aa points like a respec?  Either way it doesnt matter to me, but a betrayel should not be taken lightly and the penalty needs to be harsh to avoid changing over to the flavor of the month approach.</DIV>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<P>Or how about evil Troubador to good Troubador....  Or Good Dirge to Evil Dirge.....  Or Evil Fury to Good Fury....  Opps sorry, that doesn't fit the whole new class mold.......</P><P> </P><P>Some people do not want to betray cities due to wanting to change classes....  For example....  On my server about 80% of the population resides in Qeynos, Me being an Assassin resides in Freeport....  The market in Freeport totally blows....  Finding Tradskillers in Freeport totally sucks....  So why is it that I live in freeport?  Because I am forced to because of my class....</P><P>Up till the PvP changes, I used to have my house in North Qeynos....  But, since they added the PvP (which was NOT suposed to interfere with PvE servers) all the guards in North Qeynos will now kill me on sight...  Not like I would stand much of a chance aginst a Lev 70 Epic X4...</P><P>So, I chose to be an Assassin and because of that I am exiled to Freeport... Living in Freeport was not my choice....  So, because I want to play the Assassin class I am penalized by being forced to live in Freeport where the market sucks and you can't frind tradeskillers to save your life....</P><P>Like someone said previously, in RL you would not be able to fight if you were waddling around with 6 huge boxes on you, but it is something they allowed....  On the otherhand, from a RP perspective, not everyone (pretty much no one would know) in Qeynos would be aware of the fact that my character was an Assassin, as that is not information that I would be giving out freely...  I could be posing as a Ranger in order to live in Qeynos....  </P><P>The only reason I would even consider betraying would not be to change classes, but to live in Qeynos where 95% of my guild is from and to have access to the market and tradeskillers in Qeynos....  It's not the Queen or the Overload that has granted me my skills, it was the dedication that I put into the class that granted me my skills and it's not something that I would likely forget if I were to betray a city...  There is no penality for living in Maj'dul, so doing betrayal from 1 city to the other without changing class and losing all your spells make absolutly no sence at all....</P><P>I can however see losing your spells if you changed class...  You are no longer using what you have learned from the very begining and picking up a totally different set of skills, so it makes sence that you would lose all your current spell levels and learn your new trade....</P><P> </P><P>Flame me all you want... I'm just showing you that there are other reason to betray besides wanting to change you class... This game does not have to be all about penalizing players....  so what if someone preferes to live in Qeynos rather than Freeport....  This isn't PvP where there is suposed to be such hatred between cities....  What difference does it really make in the PvE game??  None at all....</P><P> </P><P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 63 Troubador</P><hr></blockquote>Im confused. You purposefully chose Assassin but hate living in freeport but you liked the class alot, if this is the case then why would you betray if you still want to be an assassin? You do realise you'll ionstantly become a ranger?Evil classes will not be permitted in qeynos and good classes will not be permitted in freeport, that wont change. There may not be out and out war between the cities but they certainly arent friendly on PVE servers. The decision is partly RP based partly game mechanics and fits perfectly, people made a decision to be a class and live in a city that went with it, to change this they have to pay the price and be responsible for their decisions.

[Rendoir]

<P>The thing is here, that a dirge betraying -may- suffer consequence in terms of money and time invested in spells. Sure I can see that going from defiler to mystic would evitably lead to a dissonace in spell lines. But... Why cannot the defiler STAY a defiler in the new city? That would seem to be the most appropriate scenario. Dirge, Troub, Warden, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Guardian, Berserker - all of these classes can go back and forth - now, I'm assiumung their spells will be reset to app1 also - Why? </P> <P>There is no reason why they should suddenly lose the knowledge they have, and the investment they made. But - if the ARE reset to app1, well that is just plain ridiculous - if they are allowed to keep em at ad3, master1, whatever they have - then that is a clear imbaance, favoring neutral classes. Either way a losing scenario.</P> <P> </P> <P>I just wish a Conj would remain a conj, even after betrayal. Make the quest really tough - make it a one off exchange or something - make the penalty come from some different angle - but don't make us pay with losing our class/spells please!</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Rendoir wrote: <P>The thing is here, that a dirge betraying -may- suffer consequence in terms of money and time invested in spells. Sure I can see that going from defiler to mystic would evitably lead to a dissonace in spell lines. But... Why cannot the defiler STAY a defiler in the new city? That would seem to be the most appropriate scenario. Dirge, Troub, Warden, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Guardian, Berserker - all of these classes can go back and forth - now, I'm assiumung their spells will be reset to app1 also - Why? </P> <P>There is no reason why they should suddenly lose the knowledge they have, and the investment they made. But - if the ARE reset to app1, well that is just plain ridiculous - if they are allowed to keep em at ad3, master1, whatever they have - then that is a clear imbaance, favoring neutral classes. Either way a losing scenario.</P> <P> </P> <P>I just wish a Conj would remain a conj, even after betrayal. Make the quest really tough - make it a one off exchange or something - make the penalty come from some different angle - but don't make us pay with losing our class/spells please!</P> <P> </P><hr></blockquote> They do not want this to happen, because of the RP-aspect of it. Think about it, a Necromancer living in Qeynos?! This is something that should not happen. Same with a Paladin living in Freeport, or a Shadowknight in Qeynos. Think about it, they don't go together, thus you have to change your class. Plus you're betraying your city, do you think your city is going to be happy about you leaving? No, they're going to be unhappy and they're going to smack you upside the head so you forget everything that you already know. Then you'll be at Apprentice 1s, and have to "restart" your spells again. It is balance, in a funny way.

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>Rendoir wrote:<P>The thing is here, that a dirge betraying -may- suffer consequence in terms of money and time invested in spells. Sure I can see that going from defiler to mystic would evitably lead to a dissonace in spell lines. But... Why cannot the defiler STAY a defiler in the new city? That would seem to be the most appropriate scenario. Dirge, Troub, Warden, Fury, Wizard, Warlock, Guardian, Berserker - all of these classes can go back and forth - now, I'm assiumung their spells will be reset to app1 also - Why? </P><P>There is no reason why they should suddenly lose the knowledge they have, and the investment they made. But - if the ARE reset to app1, well that is just plain ridiculous - if they are allowed to keep em at ad3, master1, whatever they have - then that is a clear imbaance, favoring neutral classes. Either way a losing scenario.</P><P> </P><P>I just wish a Conj would remain a conj, even after betrayal. Make the quest really tough - make it a one off exchange or something - make the penalty come from some different angle - but don't make us pay with losing our class/spells please!</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>You will not change the devs minds about good classes in freeport and evil classes in qeynos. It wont happen.

[Cersiana]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>I'm sorry guys but I mostly don't agree with this.. You Cannot be an Evil Pally.. Or a good Shadowknight.. And a good necro? It doesn't make sense. Reviving the dead is not something a good person is gonna do.. Evil conju I could see.. But a good necro.. blah no to be "good" you'd have to drop the evil arts. So to be fair to someone on either side you have to change your class if it requires you to be good/evil.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>Of course they could pull a D&D, if a pally makes to many evil acts (how many depends on how evil) You can stay a "pally" you just don't lvl anymore. But you guys wouldn't like that now would you [Removed for Content]. But personally I don't like Freeport or qeynos so *shrug* I don't think they should change how the classes work it's not right. I have a Dark elf Ranger and a High elf Coercer. I don't like either city, (I kinda prefer Freeport for the way the houses are made and the guild mounts) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>But I don't think you should be able to be an "Evil" temp or a "Good" inquiz. Are you really gonna find a priest devout to a "Good" god in a totally evil kill everyone city or their own choice? I think not. It makes no sense I'm sorry =( </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>You should have to relearn spells *IF* you change your class. Cause well you wouldn't know what you where getting into... If you don't change your class then they shouldn't reset cause its not like your learning anything new. BUT that wouldn't be fair sooooooooooooooo everyone has to relearn. You know what though be smart.. If you know your gonna betray Get masters for that class before you betray instead of spending the money on masters for the class you are.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>If your already lvl 70 and a big time raider your probably doing extremely well anyways. Why would you wanna change? If you say for your raid force if they really want you they are gonna reequip you anyways. Betraying IS easy now I dunno if anyone else remembers the super killer fish in nek *shudder* but its much easier now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>Sorry for the long post! </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#99ffcc size=2>From a betrayer of many times - Cersiana ~*~ Ivori</FONT></DIV>

[thepriz]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rendoir wrote:<div>So - a defiler decides to betray FP, and go to Qeynos. He goes through the rigmarole of the betrayal quests. Somewhere in the process he transforms into a mystic, and becomes superdumb, having all his masters drop to noob level spells. It seems pretty ill-conceived to me. Why do we suppose that just because a class betrays they automatically give up ( from an RP point of view) a lifetime's dedication to their chosen path?</div> <div> </div> <div>For example - if a Russian Carpenter betrayed the cccp and headed West to the States - when he get's there, he is not an American Electrician, he is still a Russian Carpenter. Seems very simple to me. Sure I know people are going to say<font color="#cc0000">First the Russian Carpenter knows nothing of American building codes. He has to start over and learn the codes and the way Americans do things if he wants to practice his perfession. Does he loose all his knowledge? No. As you betray you have to learn the new way of doing things does this mean you have to start back at level 1? No. You still have some proficency in you field of expertiese, you just have to take some time and learn the things you need to know to opererate in your new city.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>1. You have to pay a price for betraying ( you pay that price when you have to decide which inventory items you will take with you: when you leave behind all you friends and business contacts.)</div> <div> </div> <div>2. Nothing is supposed to be easy ( well the difficulty here should be in the QUEST, not in re-equipping your toon when you eventually finish it)</div> <div> </div> <div>Please, someone give me a valid argument as to why it seems reasonable that spells should drop to apprentice1 level? And as to Why equipment that may be class specific - but which a toon may have been wearing for god knows how long suddenly no longer fits.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote></div>