sorceror love = no

[Xarov]

<DIV>LU 23 patch notes and yet still no Love for the sorceror types................... /sigh .... </DIV>

[Emerix]

<P>Isnt that sad . one of the highest damage classes doesnt get love ahwwwww</P> <P>you get love btw look at the proc topic</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xarovix wrote:<BR> <DIV>LU 23 patch notes and yet still no Love for the sorceror types................... /sigh .... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>in reviewing your 50 some odd posts it seems your referring to the hate generation that warlocks can do on aoe encounters.  It may be more beneficial if you actually posted some details instead of such a blatent whine thread.

[Yon]

<DIV>you guys could always just have you DPS nerfed hard then you wouldn't have to worry about hate like rangers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying you need to be nerfed saying be carefull what you wish for.</DIV>

[Geero]

<DIV>Actually they are showing sorc love...  They are nerfing other classes so you can still be on tier 1 dps. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Raster]

<HR> <DIV>you guys could always just have you DPS nerfed hard then you wouldn't have to worry about hate like rangers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying you need to be nerfed saying be carefull what you wish for. <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>We've already been <STRIKE>nerfed</STRIKE> patched... once, a long long time ago,  we were tops in DPS.  Enjoy what you had & join the crowd.</P>

[Xarov]

<DIV>Non warlock types for the most part dont understand the major issue for warlock classes, lets see bad cast times ( all of our big damage spells have a 3 sec or worse cast time ) , absurd amounts of AE hate ( the " wait till the tank has agro solution doesnt hold, most warlocks can still peel agro after a crit ae nuke ) ... Raid parse shows really low numbers for a T1 dps class , group parse shows that most mobs are dead by the time our ae lands on them ( assuming of course we dont have to wait till the mobs arent half dead already due to massive ae agro issue ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yea call it a whine but we have had these issues since LU 13, so if that cant be understood then whatever, i wont call for any class nerf, but i do ask for somehelp with warlock issues ( which no dev, or mod has answered , or even posted on our boards in months ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw Emerix if i need to rely on other classes to give me my dps boost then something is wrong so the "proc changes" dont concern warlocks as a whole because procs dont make up the forte of our dps ( aka im not a troub or chanter type )  oh and you no nothing of ourclass if you think we do some of the most massive dmg in the game, dmg number from one nuke yes, over all dps no </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>kthks </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Xarovix on <SPAN class=date_text>04-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:27 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Xarovix on <span class=date_text>04-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 AM</span>

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xarovix wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw Emerix if i need to rely on other classes to give me my dps boost then something is wrong so the "proc changes" dont concern warlocks as a whole because procs dont make up the forte of our dps ( aka im not a troub or chanter type )  oh and you no nothing of ourclass if you think we do some of the most massive dmg in the game, dmg number from one nuke yes, over all dps no </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>kthks </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Xarovix on <SPAN class=date_text>04-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:27 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Xarovix on <SPAN class=date_text>04-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So sorcs shouldnt rely on other classes for high dps, despite majority of all the other classes has relied on that all along and still do? If my swashie is grouped with the right classes her dps is enormous compaired to her being in a group that doesnt boost her capabilities. All melee classes relies on what other can bring to fullfill their max potential, surely mages should as well. If ye asked for more abilities cross classes to be able to increase a casters capabilities, then I and many others would no doubt support this idea but the idea of a solo wiz/warlock can unleash same dps as a if they were in an optimal raid group is so unbalanced it would result in a nerf that would make all other nerfs pale.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[mook85az]

You're getting major love.  The spell proc change GREATLY benefits spells with even a 3 second cast time (from 30% to 44ish% proc chance, see the thread in the Troubador forum). Of course, this only makes your hate worse. =p <div></div>

[Emerix]

<DIV>1st . The Proc change will really help the sorcerors </DIV> <DIV>2nd . If you play your character well youre top tier damage although yes scouts still do more . but that depends on the encounter . a Warlock does like hell a lot when it comes to encounters while scouts are better on solo mobs .</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>dps tier in raid (regular single target encounters) right now:<BR>1. summoners: pet 700-900, master 300-600, total 1000-1500 dps<BR>2. assassins: 1000-1300 dps<BR>3. rogues and rangers: 800-1100 dps<BR>4. wizard: 700-900 dps<BR>5. warlock and brawlers: 600-800 dps<BR>6. other classes...<BR> <BR>Sorc love = bring up sorc's dps to match assassin's dps. (rangers need some love too.)<BR>The way to do it = reduce cast time, reduce mana cost, reduce aggro generated.<BR> <BR>P.S. My spells are all adept3 or master1. My AA = str + wis.<BR>I might do more dps with an illusionist and a troubador in group, but that is not my real dps - assassins can do more with those uber buffs too.</DIV>

[Emerix]

Post the average multiple target raid stuff then . yes i know there are less but those still exist .

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emerix wrote:<BR> Post the average multiple target raid stuff then . yes i know there are less but those still exist .<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I admit sorc will do higher if AE. However, most of the time, we cant AE because we'll ot and and die. And if fighting a named + minions, most likely chanters will mez the minions so AE will be useless. So the only uses of our AE in raid is to kill trash mobs like those fallen raiders in PPR. I really dont think we should only be doing 70% or less of assassins' dps just becasue we have some AE. Sorc should at least do about the same dps as rogues', which will need a 20% dps boost.<BR>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div>dps tier in raid (regular single target encounters) right now:1. summoners: pet 700-900, master 300-600, total 1000-1500 dps2. assassins: 1000-1300 dps3. rogues and rangers: 800-1100 dps4. wizard: 700-900 dps5. warlock and brawlers: 600-800 dps6. other classes... Sorc love = bring up sorc's dps to match assassin's dps. (rangers need some love too.)The way to do it = reduce cast time, reduce mana cost, reduce aggro generated. P.S. My spells are all adept3 or master1. My AA = str + wis.I might do more dps with an illusionist and a troubador in group, but that is not my real dps - assassins can do more with those uber buffs too.</div><hr></blockquote> Summoners and their pet(s) take up separate entries on the hate list... this is a big reason why they often can do parse-leading net damage and yet still outsurvive a sorceror.  And don't feed me the tired line that the summoner gets the pet's hate when the pet dies: not just one but every single pet has to die for the summoner to take up an amount of hate proportional to damage (s)he dealt.  Good question: why the **** is the main summoner char is doing significant damage on top of the main pet and pets who are already nearly matching the sorceror?  Are summoners the masters of ranged attacks or of controlling others to do their bidding?  Pick one and adhere to it!! THAT is where a nerf must focus, when it happens.  Want to put everyone on the same page?  Mildly increase the damage output of pets and significantly decrease that of their masters. PROBLEM SOLVED. Assassin hate transfer at adept 3 is 26%, and ranger hate reduction at adept 3 is 39%.  These are freebies.  Maybe the lore justifies it, when an enemy doesn't really know who hit it.  But they are still freebies and the lore doesn't explain damage output.  Want to put everyone on the same page?  Slightly decrease dps as well as hate transfer/reduction.  PROBLEM SOLVED. Note: these are all passive, freebie aspects to aggro management. When a sorceror wants to passively manage aggro, (s)he either equips Raiment of the Skywatcher or Cryptic Metallic Robe (whose Slip proc is often resisted in my experience).  The alternative is to cease casting, usually to do a Concussive cast.  There are lapses between sorceror spellcasts on the client side, sometimes because of lag, sometimes because the sorceror actually needs to decide what spell to cast next.  For a summoner pet, all attacks are perpetuated and done in chain form on the server side without regard to connection interruption (the "AFK" problem). And the big reason for this discussion?  Class reputation.  What the hell is the worth of a sorceror that dies quicker and produces less damage than a summoner, besides a punchline?  I have 50 AA's, raid gear, and all single-target masters except Sunstrike... yet do you love me for my Evac? Increasing sorceror dps will not address this issue unless hate is also better managed. <div></div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Assassin hate transfer at adept 3 is 26%, and ranger hate reduction at adept 3 is 39%.  These are freebies.  Maybe the lore justifies it, when an enemy doesn't really know who hit it.  But they are still freebies and the lore doesn't explain damage output.  <FONT color=#33ccff>Want to put everyone on the same page?  Slightly decrease dps as well as hate transfer/reduction.  PROBLEM SOLVED.</FONT><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There we go. There's the Wizard solution we know and love. Not content with splatting the Rangers first time around, they're going back for another bite.</P> <P>Frankly large parts of the player community couldn't care less what happens to Sorcerors at this point in the games history.</P> <P>As mentioned elsewhere what Sorcerors need is a way to be enhanced more by other classes. Scout dps  is not generated by themselves when you look at raid/group parses. It's significantly enhanced by their team mates.</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Assassin hate transfer at adept 3 is 26%, and ranger hate reduction at adept 3 is 39%.  These are freebies.  Maybe the lore justifies it, when an enemy doesn't really know who hit it.  But they are still freebies and the lore doesn't explain damage output.  <FONT color=#33ccff>Want to put everyone on the same page?  Slightly decrease dps as well as hate transfer/reduction.  PROBLEM SOLVED.</FONT><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There we go. There's the Wizard solution we know and love. Not content with splatting the Rangers first time around, they're going back for another bite.</P> <P>Frankly large parts of the player community couldn't care less what happens to Sorcerors at this point in the games history.</P> <P>As mentioned elsewhere what Sorcerors need is a way to be enhanced more by other classes. Scout dps  is not generated by themselves when you look at raid/group parses. It's significantly enhanced by their team mates.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My friend's assassin (with adept3 and master1 CAs and legendary / fabled items) can do 1100+ dps easily without any offensive buff (like in a group with paladin, templar, necromancer.) But my wizard cant even do 700 dps if there is no any mana regen buff (from chanter or bard) in a long fight becuase I'll run out of mana very fast and then have zero dps. Even in a 1 minute fight (so I dont run out of mana,) I still cant break 1k dps without any proc / spell haste buff or debuff like dispatch, unless there are like 5+ targets for me to AE. The base dps of a sorcerer is just too low becuase of 1. long cast time, 2. no auto attack 3. huge mana cost. These need to be changed or I really doubt sorcerers will ever be t1 dps.<BR>

[massem]

<div></div><div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Carnagh wrote: <div></div> <p>....</p> <p>There we go. There's the Wizard solution we know and love. Not content with splatting the Rangers first time around, they're going back for another bite.</p> <p>Frankly large parts of the player community couldn't care less what happens to Sorcerors at this point in the games history.</p> <p>As mentioned elsewhere what Sorcerors need is a way to be enhanced more by other classes. Scout dps  is not generated by themselves when you look at raid/group parses. It's significantly enhanced by their team mates.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Classic ranger attitude display there - you rangers really work hard at making other classes hate you ... :smileyhappy:</p> <p>Frankly, we wizards would be very happy if rangers like you stopped caring about our class.</p> <p>What we do NOT need at this time is to be made even more dependent on other classes. Already now we rely on other classes for aggro management and power regeneration. We DO need is to be brought inline with other T1 DPS classes classes when it comes to aggro management, casting times and power consumption. This means that we need an aggro transfer (like the assassins have) or a passive hate reducer (like the rangers have), reduced casting times and reduced power cost of our damage spells. </p> <p>Your suggestion with buffing would have been a good solution 3 or 4 LU's ago, but has already been fixed (mainly with the troubadour AAs), and those buffs allow now allow us to do T1 DPS in an ideal group setup.</p> <p>Please inform yourself about our class before suggesting what adjustments needs to be done of our class. </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 AM</span>

[Aienaa]

<DIV> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>dps tier in raid (regular single target encounters) right now:<BR>1. summoners: pet 700-900, master 300-600, total 1000-1500 dps<BR>2. assassins: 1000-1300 dps<BR>3. rogues and rangers: 800-1100 dps<BR>4. wizard: 700-900 dps<BR>5. warlock and brawlers: 600-800 dps<BR>6. other classes...<BR> <BR>Sorc love = bring up sorc's dps to match assassin's dps. (rangers need some love too.)<BR>The way to do it = reduce cast time, reduce mana cost, reduce aggro generated.<BR> <BR>P.S. My spells are all adept3 or master1. My AA = str + wis.<BR>I might do more dps with an illusionist and a troubador in group, but that is not my real dps - assassins can do more with those uber buffs too.</FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>My friend's assassin (with adept3 and master1 CAs and legendary / fabled items) can do 1100+ dps easily without any offensive buff (like in a group with paladin, templar, necromancer.) But my wizard cant even do 700 dps if there is no any mana regen buff (from chanter or bard) in a long fight becuase I'll run out of mana very fast and then have zero dps. Even in a 1 minute fight (so I dont run out of mana,) I still cant break 1k dps without any proc / spell haste buff or debuff like dispatch, unless there are like 5+ targets for me to AE. The base dps of a sorcerer is just too low becuase of 1. long cast time, 2. no auto attack 3. huge mana cost. These need to be changed or I really doubt sorcerers will ever be t1 dps.</FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only times that Assassins reach the numbers that you are refering to here is in a raid group that is geared specifically for melee DPS....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I can do 1100+ DPS without any offensive buffs if it is a fast kill (IE weak mob) using all my high damage / long recast attacks.... But then again, I could also say that you can do over 4000+ DPS given the right situation.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, how about not making up numbers to justify your argument.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 60 Troubador</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only times that Assassins reach the numbers that you are refering to here is in a raid group that is geared specifically for melee DPS....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I can do 1100+ DPS without any offensive buffs if it is a fast kill (IE weak mob) using all my high damage / long recast attacks.... But then again, I could also say that you can do over 4000+ DPS given the right situation.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, how about not making up numbers to justify your argument.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 60 Troubador</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I didnt make up numbers. The raid dps numbers are from my guild's raid log in t6 (PPR, CoA) and t7 raids (Lab, LoA.) The assassin was in the same group with me - we didnt have any bard or chanter in the group. I can only do 70% of his dps. My spells are all adept3 and master1, and my AA is 50, while his AA is only 37.<BR> <BR>And the 1100+ dps without offensive buffs I said in the other post was taken from the boss in the great egg nest. It was a 4 people group - paladin, templar, my assassin friend and a low level warlock (my alt, was only level 62 so couldnt do any dps to orange named.) He did almost 1200 dps in that fight, the named's hp is 150k, not a very short fight. I did this named using my wizard too with the same paladin and templar (so a trio group.) my dps was only 900 and i used up all of my mana (and used my gloves to regen mana, if i didnt use it my dps would be like 700 or lower.)<BR> <BR>So as you can see, no matter it's a raid or trio, a 5 mins fight or 1 min... a wizard's dps is only 70% of an assassin's.<p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> electricninjasex wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV>dps tier in raid (regular single target encounters) right now:<BR>1. summoners: pet 700-900, master 300-600, total 1000-1500 dps<BR>2. assassins: 1000-1300 dps<BR>3. rogues and rangers: 800-1100 dps<BR>4. wizard: 700-900 dps<BR>5. warlock and brawlers: 600-800 dps<BR>6. other classes...<BR> <BR>Sorc love = bring up sorc's dps to match assassin's dps. (rangers need some love too.)<BR>The way to do it = reduce cast time, reduce mana cost, reduce aggro generated.<BR> <BR>P.S. My spells are all adept3 or master1. My AA = str + wis.<BR>I might do more dps with an illusionist and a troubador in group, but that is not my real dps - assassins can do more with those uber buffs too.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT size=5>Summoners and their pet(s) take up separate entries on the hate list... this is a big reason why they often can do parse-leading net damage and yet still outsurvive a sorceror.  And don't feed me the tired line that the summoner gets the pet's hate when the pet dies: not just one but every single pet has to die for the summoner to take up an amount of hate proportional to damage (s)he dealt.</FONT>  Good question: why the **** is the main summoner char is doing significant damage on top of the main pet and pets who are already nearly matching the sorceror?  Are summoners the masters of ranged attacks or of controlling others to do their bidding?  Pick one and adhere to it!! THAT is where a nerf must focus, when it happens.  Want to put everyone on the same page?  Mildly increase the damage output of pets and significantly decrease that of their masters. PROBLEM SOLVED.<BR><BR>Assassin hate transfer at adept 3 is 26%, and ranger hate reduction at adept 3 is 39%.  These are freebies.  Maybe the lore justifies it, when an enemy doesn't really know who hit it.  But they are still freebies and the lore doesn't explain damage output.  Want to put everyone on the same page?  Slightly decrease dps as well as hate transfer/reduction.  PROBLEM SOLVED.<BR><BR>Note: these are all passive, freebie aspects to aggro management. When a sorceror wants to passively manage aggro, (s)he either equips Raiment of the Skywatcher or Cryptic Metallic Robe (whose Slip proc is often resisted in my experience).  The alternative is to cease casting, usually to do a Concussive cast.  There are lapses between sorceror spellcasts on the client side, sometimes because of lag, sometimes because the sorceror actually needs to decide what spell to cast next.  For a summoner pet, all attacks are perpetuated and done in chain form on the server side without regard to connection interruption (the "AFK" problem).<BR><BR>And the big reason for this discussion?  Class reputation.  What the hell is the worth of a sorceror that dies quicker and produces less damage than a summoner, besides a punchline?  I have 50 AA's, raid gear, and all single-target masters except Sunstrike... yet do you love me for my Evac?<BR><BR>Increasing sorceror dps will not address this issue unless hate is also better managed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When people start talking outa their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and making up numbers and making personal ignorant interpertations of others abilities, the posts get so very funny.</P> <P>Tell us more how you will fix the game mr expert...I need some more entertainment.<BR></P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only times that Assassins reach the numbers that you are refering to here is in a raid group that is geared specifically for melee DPS....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I can do 1100+ DPS without any offensive buffs if it is a fast kill (IE weak mob) using all my high damage / long recast attacks.... But then again, I could also say that you can do over 4000+ DPS given the right situation.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, how about not making up numbers to justify your argument.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 60 Troubador</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I didnt make up numbers. The raid dps numbers are from my guild's raid log in t6 (PPR, CoA) and t7 raids (Lab, LoA.) The assassin was in the same group with me - we didnt have any bard or chanter in the group. I can only do 70% of his dps. My spells are all adept3 and master1, and my AA is 50, while his AA is only 37.<BR> <BR>And the 1100+ dps without offensive buffs I said in the other post was taken from the boss in the great egg nest. It was a 4 people group - paladin, templar, my assassin friend and a low level warlock (my alt, was only level 62 so couldnt do any dps to orange named.) He did almost 1200 dps in that fight, the named's hp is 150k, not a very short fight. I did this named using my wizard too with the same paladin and templar (so a trio group.) my dps was only 900 and i used up all of my mana (and used my gloves to regen mana, if i didnt use it my dps would be like 700 or lower.)<BR> <BR>So as you can see, no matter it's a raid or trio, a 5 mins fight or 1 min... a wizard's dps is only 70% of an assassin's. <P>Message Edited by QQFatman on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:11 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not trying to dismiss your point QQ but I usually parse 1K on the final named in nest.  fights usually last 1min 30s.  group make up is usually paly, mystic, ranger, warlock, monk, and me wizzie.  all lvl 70's.</P> <P>If Fusion isn't up then i end up around 800 (but we always wait for fusion)  i have 40aa's.</P> <P>I also recently raided court of al-afaz with another guild and was parsing 800-1200 dps depending on the fight and the duration.  (i even pulled agro, died, on the guy who mem wipes and still managed 650 dps) longer fights 3+ min where I'd have to canni health to keep from going oop my dps would drop.  short fights under 2 min I could go full blast and not pull agro I did not have a troubador in the group and was using skywatcher.  I did however have amends from a 68 paly (33% only) and I ended up killing him 2x over the course of the raid.  </P> <P>I then helped a guild raid the final raid (mark of awakening) with a lvl 70 troub in group with 7.5% chance to crit + de-hate + 3.8% reduction in cast timers combined with my aa's gave me a 13.5% to crit 12.6% reduction in spell cast timers, 30ish mana regen + 25 (selfbuffed)ft = 55 ft total and that wonderful aira of acclamation.  200-400 dmg proc.</P> <P>I was parsing 1-1400 dps per fight.  (i did pull agro once with mob at 2% health, swapped to skywatchers after that and never had a problem after) MT was a paly and had a warlock in group for hate generation.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P><BR>not trying to dismiss your point QQ but I usually parse 1K on the final named in nest.  fights usually last 1min 30s.  group make up is usually paly, mystic, ranger, warlock, monk, and me wizzie.  all lvl 70's.</P> <P>If Fusion isn't up then i end up around 800 (but we always wait for fusion)  i have 40aa's.</P> <P>I also recently raided court of al-afaz with another guild and was parsing 800-1200 dps depending on the fight and the duration.  (i even pulled agro, died, on the guy who mem wipes and still managed 650 dps) longer fights 3+ min where I'd have to canni health to keep from going oop my dps would drop.  short fights under 2 min I could go full blast and not pull agro I did not have a troubador in the group and was using skywatcher.  I did however have amends from a 68 paly (33% only) and I ended up killing him 2x over the course of the raid.  </P> <P>I then helped a guild raid the final raid (mark of awakening) with a lvl 70 troub in group with 7.5% chance to crit + de-hate + 3.8% reduction in cast timers combined with my aa's gave me a 13.5% to crit 12.6% reduction in spell cast timers, 30ish mana regen + 25 (selfbuffed)ft = 55 ft total and that wonderful aira of acclamation.  200-400 dmg proc.</P> <P>I was parsing 1-1400 dps per fight.  (i did pull agro once with mob at 2% health, swapped to skywatchers after that and never had a problem after) MT was a paly and had a warlock in group for hate generation.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You could do higher on the nest boss fight becuase you have a full group (so the fight is much shorter compared to my trio group.) If the fight is longer than 2 mins, I run out of mana, and my dps drops.<BR>I can do good dps with troubadors / illlusionist in my group, i never siad i cant. But an assassin can do more too if with +dps buff and haste. So the base dps of a wizard is lower and need to be improved to match assassin's dps (not to nerf assassin.)

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <P><BR>not trying to dismiss your point QQ but I usually parse 1K on the final named in nest.  fights usually last 1min 30s.  group make up is usually paly, mystic, ranger, warlock, monk, and me wizzie.  all lvl 70's.</P> <P>If Fusion isn't up then i end up around 800 (but we always wait for fusion)  i have 40aa's.</P> <P>I also recently raided court of al-afaz with another guild and was parsing 800-1200 dps depending on the fight and the duration.  (i even pulled agro, died, on the guy who mem wipes and still managed 650 dps) longer fights 3+ min where I'd have to canni health to keep from going oop my dps would drop.  short fights under 2 min I could go full blast and not pull agro I did not have a troubador in the group and was using skywatcher.  I did however have amends from a 68 paly (33% only) and I ended up killing him 2x over the course of the raid.  </P> <P>I then helped a guild raid the final raid (mark of awakening) with a lvl 70 troub in group with 7.5% chance to crit + de-hate + 3.8% reduction in cast timers combined with my aa's gave me a 13.5% to crit 12.6% reduction in spell cast timers, 30ish mana regen + 25 (selfbuffed)ft = 55 ft total and that wonderful aira of acclamation.  200-400 dmg proc.</P> <P>I was parsing 1-1400 dps per fight.  (i did pull agro once with mob at 2% health, swapped to skywatchers after that and never had a problem after) MT was a paly and had a warlock in group for hate generation.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You could do higher on the nest boss fight becuase you have a full group (so the fight is much shorter compared to my trio group.) If the fight is longer than 2 mins, I run out of mana, and my dps drops.<BR>I can do good dps with troubadors / illlusionist in my group, i never siad i cant. But an assassin can do more too if with +dps buff and haste. So the base dps of a wizard is lower and need to be improved to match assassin's dps (not to nerf assassin.)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with you there, on fights that are over 2 min and we can go full burn, without a regen class we'll go oop and then our dps goes down the tubes.  Even with a troub or chanter/ illusionist, i'm still using canni when it refreshes or i'll go oop at the 3 min mark, thats with FT 62 + xhavis's robe procing about 3x per min. (illusionist 42 + 20 self = 62) Once I run out of mana all I can do is average about 350 dps for the rest of the fight.  Mind you i'm usually raid buffed at 7500+ power.</P> <P>I'm a few aa away from taking the final spell cost reduction ability in the wisdom line (reduces power costs by 12%) and we'll see how that works out.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>When people start talking outa their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and making up numbers and making personal ignorant interpertations of others abilities, the posts get so very funny.</p> <p>Tell us more how you will fix the game mr expert...I need some more entertainment.</p><hr></blockquote> Well don't laugh too hard, you'll need your energy for the screams to come.<div></div>

[lancekortesoja]

the problem is that warlocks output damage is TO high, unlike necromancers, our damages goes off in little bits, but we still do high dps with out argo problems, when a warlock casts an AoE that does 1000-1700 and necromancer does a DoT ae for 250-300 per 3 sec, it does around the same, but not the same hate <div></div>

[Yon]

<P>Something is really wrong with the boards I keep tryig to post something but it says invalid html then erases the whole message.  Anyone know wahts wrong? <P>Message Edited by Yonar on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Yonar on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:49 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P></P></FONT><FONT size=3> <P>masseman wrote:</P></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P></P></FONT><FONT size=3> <P>Carnagh wrote:</P> <P> </P> <P>....</P> <P>There we go. There's the Wizard solution we know and love. Not content with splatting the Rangers first time around, they're going back for another bite.</P> <P>Frankly large parts of the player community couldn't care less what happens to Sorcerors at this point in the games history.</P> <P>As mentioned elsewhere what Sorcerors need is a way to be enhanced more by other classes. Scout dps  is not generated by themselves when you look at raid/group parses. It's significantly enhanced by their team mates.</P></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P></P></FONT><FONT size=3> <P>Classic ranger attitude display there - you rangers really work hard at making other classes hate you ... :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Frankly, we wizards would be very happy if rangers like you stopped caring about our class.</P> <P>What we do NOT need at this time is to be made even more dependent on other classes. Already now we rely on other classes for aggro management and power regeneration. We DO need is to be brought inline with other T1 DPS classes classes when it comes to aggro management, casting times and power consumption. This means that we need an aggro transfer (like the assassins have) or a passive hate reducer (like the rangers have), reduced casting times and reduced power cost of our damage spells. </P> <P>Your suggestion with buffing would have been a good solution 3 or 4 LU's ago, but has already been fixed (mainly with the troubadour AAs), and those buffs allow now allow us to do T1 DPS in an ideal group setup.</P> <P>Please inform yourself about our class before suggesting what adjustments needs to be done of our class.</P> <P>Message Edited by masseman on 04-24-2006 01:34 AM</P></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P></P></FONT><FONT size=3> <P><BR>Masseman are you f-ing kidding me?</P> <P> </P> <P>What class was whining for the ranger nerf 24-7 before?  You guys flocked to the nerf ranger boards and cried and cried until it was done saying rangers weren't supposed to be T1 dps etc.</P> <P> </P> <P>Check boards by Btilthemage before the nerf and you will see tons boards creating on why rangers should be nerfed and many replies by the sorcerer community.  </P> <P>also check a board called "Maybe we were going about warlocks wrong.  lets try a different approach."</P> <P>You guys screamed nerf rangers until it was done and have no right to say we have the bad attitude.</P> <P> </P> <P>You guys want deagros? Rangers aren't even in T1 DPS most of the time, and if they are they have to spend INSANE amounts of money to maintain it.  Our deagros are pretty much useless because we don't do enough damage to need them, I use them as move for ho's and that’s about it.  A fully fabled ranger with all master 1 spells could probably get away with adept 1 deagros, maybe even less.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lets have the next LU give sorcerer deagros ranger dps and the rangers get the sorcerer dps.  Who will be happier?  I would willing trade my deagros and my dps for your dps as they are pretty much useless.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I am not saying sorcerers don't have issues, but you guys did all cry nerf for rangers before and when you got it you went on saying how it didn't help enough and now you want deaggros so you can maintain your dps.  There may be hate problems with sorcerers but if you search the boards and count the number or rangers crying nerf for sorcerers and the number of sorcerers crying nerf for rangers I think we all know which would be greater.  Calling the ranger community hated for stick our noses in other peoples business... please that’s just ignorant, especially for a sorcerer.</P></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> <P> </P></FONT></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Yonar on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Simply put... if they were to increase our dots by a fairly large amount i think sorcs would be fine damage wise.  Our dots are pathetic and not really worth casting...  (most of the time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean take fiery covultions for example... The spell just is poor compared to our nuke damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>And the best part it wouldn't make us better soloers.... which is everyones biggest worry... dots have no place in sorcs soloing line </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>04-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 PM</span>

[Aienaa]

<P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>I didnt make up numbers. The raid dps numbers are from my guild's raid log in t6 (PPR, CoA) and t7 raids (Lab, LoA.) The assassin was in the same group with me - we didnt have any bard or chanter in the group. I can only do 70% of his dps. My spells are all adept3 and master1, and my AA is 50, while his AA is only 37.<BR> <BR>And the 1100+ dps without offensive buffs I said in the other post was taken from the boss in the great egg nest. It was a 4 people group - paladin, templar, my assassin friend and a low level warlock (my alt, was only level 62 so couldnt do any dps to orange named.) He did almost 1200 dps in that fight, the named's hp is 150k, not a very short fight. I did this named using my wizard too with the same paladin and templar (so a trio group.) my dps was only 900 and i used up all of my mana (and used my gloves to regen mana, if i didnt use it my dps would be like 700 or lower.)<BR> <BR>So as you can see, no matter it's a raid or trio, a 5 mins fight or 1 min... a wizard's dps is only 70% of an assassin's.</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P> <P>There is the problem.... You are trying to compare Assassin raid DPS to your trio group DPS and it's not even close to the same thing...  Yes, in raids I can get up to 1100+ DPS in the right set up, but put me in a trio group like your talking about and my DPS will drop down to around 800 DPS....   Also, if I save all my high damage CAs for the named in Nest, yeah I will be able to do higher damage than normal in a group, but you can't sit there and compare the DPS I can do once every 15 min to your average encounter DPS....</P> <P>BTW at raids tonight I was checking parses...  Wizards were right up there with  me DPS wise sitting at around 1000+...  So, please stop trying to compare your trio group DPS to Assassin raid DPS as there is no comparison...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P> <P></P> <P>There is the problem.... You are trying to compare Assassin raid DPS to your trio group DPS and it's not even close to the same thing...  Yes, in raids I can get up to 1100+ DPS in the right set up, but put me in a trio group like your talking about and my DPS will drop down to around 800 DPS....   Also, if I save all my high damage CAs for the named in Nest, yeah I will be able to do higher damage than normal in a group, but you can't sit there and compare the DPS I can do once every 15 min to your average encounter DPS....</P> <P>BTW at raids tonight I was checking parses...  Wizards were right up there with  me DPS wise sitting at around 1000+...  So, please stop trying to compare your trio group DPS to Assassin raid DPS as there is no comparison...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Read my post again please - my assassin friend did almost 1200 dps when killing the nest boss in the same group! (the same paladin and templar, and my warlock alt which is 5 levels lower than the named and did only 200 dps. So basically it's the the same as the trio group my wizard was in.)<BR>And in raid, you dont need any buff to do 1k+ dps. But a sorcerer without any buff can only do around 600-900 dps mainly becuase of mana and aggro problem.

[foulpla]

I would personally just like to see a power usage reduction, unlike conjurors/necros we can't just summon a new pet after each group of enemies.<div></div>

[massem]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Yonar wrote:<div></div> <div></div>... a lot of garbage removed <hr></blockquote>Like I said, we Sorcerers need lower power cost of our damage spells, a passive hate reducer, shorter casting times <i><font color="#ff0000">and </font></i>rangers to shut up on issues regarding the status of the Sorcerer classes. And blaming Sorcerers for the ranger nerf is completely wrong - you guys were doing insane DPS before LU17 until the proc bug was fixed - its hardly Sorcerers fault that they finally fixed the bug. Then you got gimped but got fixed again in record time - just one LU of being gimped. Wizards were gimped for 17 LUs from the release of the game until they released KoS. And since you seem to read the ranger boards a lot you might have noticed that most Rangers can do top DPS if they really try - you have to work for it now like most other classes have to. And I could give you 4 or 5 names of rangers who has spent months and months at trying to prevent the fix of Wizards that eventually took place with the release of KoS for no other reason that that they wanted to make sure that they would still be undisputed kings of DPS. The attitude of rangers when you tried to prevent wizard fix and the massive whine campaign after the proc bug fix has not exactly made Rangers very popular. Remember - your 40% aggro reducer does not work on the boards ... <div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 AM</span>

[electricninjasex]

I have the 12% recast timer reduction AND the 12% less power consumption AND the 5% base damage boost AA's and STILL I am not able to match or pass the summoner classes. None of us would mind Fiery Convulsions getting a second look. <div></div>

[Aienaa]

<P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Read my post again please - my assassin friend did almost 1200 dps when killing the nest boss in the same group! (the same paladin and templar, and my warlock alt which is 5 levels lower than the named and did only 200 dps. So basically it's the the same as the trio group my wizard was in.)<BR>And in raid, you dont need any buff to do 1k+ dps. But a sorcerer without any buff can only do around 600-900 dps mainly becuase of mana and aggro problem.</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>And I suggest you read my post again... Specifically that part where I said....</P> <P>"<FONT color=#66ff00>Also, if I save all my high damage CAs for the named in Nest, yeah I will be able to do higher damage than normal in a group, but you can't sit there and compare the DPS I can do once every 15 min to your average encounter DPS</FONT>"</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P>

[Xarov]

<P>Simply put any raider currently ingame can see the dps and agro issues sorcerors have atm, any consistent person who groups can see our agro issues... the old wait for tank to gain agro arguement no longer applies simply because other classes can put out more damage then you and not gain as much agro... </P> <P>Sorcerors currently in game generate WAY TOO MUCH AGRO for there total damage output, sorcerors have the worst power per spell ratio in the game atm , sorcerors currently have the worst power supplementation currently ( we were know to be efficent with power, now we can gain enough back to save our life ) </P> <P>These issues MUST be addressed, Now if only SoE can do it in away without breaking how many otherclasses to do it ( aka No freaking nerfs, sorcerors in general want NO CLASSES to be nerfed, we want a boost to our core class abilities ) </P>

[Geothe]

<DIV>" <DIV>Simply put... if they were to increase our dots by a fairly large amount i think sorcs would be fine damage wise.  Our dots are pathetic and not really worth casting...  (most of the time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean take fiery covultions for example... The spell just is poor compared to our nuke damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>And the best part it wouldn't make us better soloers.... which is everyones biggest worry... dots have no place in sorcs soloing line "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd be all for an adjustment like that for sure.</DIV></DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P> <P></P> <P>And I suggest you read my post again... Specifically that part where I said....</P> <P>"<FONT color=#66ff00>Also, if I save all my high damage CAs for the named in Nest, yeah I will be able to do higher damage than normal in a group, but you can't sit there and compare the DPS I can do once every 15 min to your average encounter DPS</FONT>"</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I saved all my high dmg spell too - fusion, ice nova.<BR>And, who wouldnt save all of his best CA for killing bosses? Im not talking about killing trash mobs...

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P> <P></P> <P>There is the problem.... You are trying to compare Assassin raid DPS to your trio group DPS and it's not even close to the same thing...  Yes, in raids I can get up to 1100+ DPS in the right set up, but put me in a trio group like your talking about and my DPS will drop down to around 800 DPS....   Also, if I save all my high damage CAs for the named in Nest, yeah I will be able to do higher damage than normal in a group, but you can't sit there and compare the DPS I can do once every 15 min to your average encounter DPS....</P> <P>BTW at raids tonight I was checking parses...  Wizards were right up there with  me DPS wise sitting at around 1000+...  So, please stop trying to compare your trio group DPS to Assassin raid DPS as there is no comparison...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Read my post again please - my assassin friend did almost 1200 dps when killing the nest boss in the same group! (the same paladin and templar, and my warlock alt which is 5 levels lower than the named and did only 200 dps. So basically it's the the same as the trio group my wizard was in.)<BR>And in raid, you dont need any buff to do 1k+ dps. <EM>But a sorcerer without any buff can only do around 600-900 dps mainly becuase of mana and aggro problem.<BR></EM> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then maybe its time to actually look at the people behind the keyboard.  Specifically you and the MT.  Parses can actually be used for more than crowing and complaining.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yonar wrote:<BR> <P>Message Edited by Yonar on <SPAN class=date_text>04-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:53 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>too much nonsense in there to quote it all.  SImply put my guild ranger can out dps me on single targets when his high dmg bow attacks are refreshed and provided snipershot doesn't get parried.</P> <P>when they aren't up he can still come close to my single target dps provided fusion isnt up. On raid targets we frequently swap places, and he dies as much as I do with adp3 de-agro's, to say your de-agro's are useless is a complete joke.</P> <P>I dont know what is up with the *your class said this*, or *your class got us nerfed* type of argument.  Thats just plain stupid.  This is a game.  Its a fantasy game granted step out into the real world.  The ranger isn't you it is a class you play.  The wizard isn't "me" it is a class I play.  anything I post on this board comes from "me" not from the "wizards"</P> <P>get it?</P>

[Zypho]

  I have got too say that right now things seem somewhat balanced. I am a lvl 70 wizard with 50 aa pts and epic 3.0 and i can parse around 1k dps alot. I feel that this upcoming change too how procs work may or may not change my dps. The one thing that really concerns me is that I do not have very many spells that go over 3 seconds cast time with agility aa maxed. If this change becomes based on cast timers after the aa factored in (which I believe it will) It will actually make me proc less then I do now. The real question is why make all these nice new proc items (fitzpizzles, blood of brood watcher, orb of the invoker) just too have them now proc less and need too be replaced with power regen , stat boosting items instead. Also if the change does factor in the aa ability I will need too /respect my aa and the agility line would become self defeating. I can only hope this doesnt happen but if it does we take another blow too our dps. As far as troub/illusionists are concerned I wouldnt worry too much about your place on raids because you are not there for your dps in the first place. I know for a fact I will still be grpd with a troubador after these changes for there awesome aa crit buffs and excellent grp hate reducing abilites. However , If my dps goes down much more then the 1k mark I may find myself once again sitting out on the sidelines like in most of T6. I also feel a minor reduction in necro/mage pets dps might be in order or as has been suggested in similar threads increasing the hate generation of the pets. I have actually seen parses on raid mobs of conj pets doing more then 1kdps which in my opinion is slightly overpowered. Also the main reason they are changing this I believe is too do with an issue with illusionist aa cast reduction which is massive allowing them too proc unbelievable amounts of damage on very fast casting spells. Instead of addressing that issue they are going too all around nerf casters . I am not certain but It definately seems possible that this change will negatively effect sorcerer's (wizards especially) and though I am not unhappy with my dps now I do really have too work hard too achieve it. With any reduction in dps I do not feel I can compete with other t1 dps classes. So I guess we will just see what happens when the changes go live. Thanks for listening ... Zyphon Level 70 Wizard of Befallen...

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>What makes concusion a joke is how its used...  This spell should have been given to the classes like brigands and we given the spell like evasion...  WE need the deaggro vs the whole group and they need the deaggro against the single target.... but all in all aggro is mostly a tank thing... You can't compare illusive's exp to anyone elses just for the fact that he has a differant tank.. For the most part i don't have aggro problems either but if i join a group outside my normal tank then.... death city</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zyphon2 wrote:<BR>   I have got too say that right now things seem somewhat balanced. I am a lvl 70 wizard with 50 aa pts and epic 3.0 and i can parse around 1k dps alot. I feel that this upcoming change too how procs work may or may not change my dps. The one thing that really concerns me is that I do not have very many spells that go over 3 seconds cast time with agility aa maxed. If this change becomes based on cast timers after the aa factored in (which I believe it will) It will actually make me proc less then I do now. The real question is why make all these nice new proc items (fitzpizzles, blood of brood watcher, orb of the invoker) just too have them now proc less and need too be replaced with power regen , stat boosting items instead. Also if the change does factor in the aa ability I will need too /respect my aa and the agility line would become self defeating. I can only hope this doesnt happen but if it does we take another blow too our dps. As far as troub/illusionists are concerned I wouldnt worry too much about your place on raids because you are not there for your dps in the first place. I know for a fact I will still be grpd with a troubador after these changes for there awesome aa crit buffs and excellent grp hate reducing abilites. However , If my dps goes down much more then the 1k mark I may find myself once again sitting out on the sidelines like in most of T6. I also feel a minor reduction in necro/mage pets dps might be in order or as has been suggested in similar threads increasing the hate generation of the pets. I have actually seen parses on raid mobs of conj pets doing more then 1kdps which in my opinion is slightly overpowered. Also the main reason they are changing this I believe is too do with an issue with illusionist aa cast reduction which is massive allowing them too proc unbelievable amounts of damage on very fast casting spells. Instead of addressing that issue they are going too all around nerf casters . I am not certain but It definately seems possible that this change will negatively effect sorcerer's (wizards especially) and though I am not unhappy with my dps now I do really have too work hard too achieve it. With any reduction in dps I do not feel I can compete with other t1 dps classes. So I guess we will just see what happens when the changes go live. Thanks for listening ... Zyphon Level 70 Wizard of Befallen...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is very true in a way... because the -.1 second isn't gonna make up for the 10% less chance to proc on the hand full of items that can</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh and i dunno what dev did this but... our mana/damage ratio is MUCH lower then the other classes... (think this is due to the fact that in beta of lu13 they lowered our min damage by alot.. but didn't adjust the mana cost of the spell)</P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[Prandtl]

<P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>masseman wrote:<BR>        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>         Yonar wrote:</P> <P>         ... a lot of garbage removed</P> <P>        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><bla bla bla >  and rangers to shut up on issues regarding the status of the Sorcerer classes.</P> <P><bla blah bla blah bla bla></P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Masseman, That a bit rude, don't you think?  Telling a class to shut up.   </P> <P>Civility.  It's not just for breakfast anymore, and there is enough to go around<BR></P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<FONT color=#ffffff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zyphon2 wrote:<BR>  <FONT color=#ffffff> I have got too say that right now things seem somewhat balanced. I am a lvl 70 wizard with 50 aa pts and epic 3.0 and i can parse around 1k dps alot.</FONT> I feel that this upcoming change too how procs work may or may not change my dps. The one thing that really concerns me is that I do not have very many spells that go over 3 seconds cast time with agility aa maxed. If this change becomes based on cast timers after the aa factored in (which I believe it will) It will actually make me proc less then I do now. The real question is why make all these nice new proc items (fitzpizzles, blood of brood watcher, orb of the invoker) just too have them now proc less and need too be replaced with power regen , stat boosting items instead. Also if the change does factor in the aa ability I will need too /respect my aa and the agility line would become self defeating. I can only hope this doesnt happen but if it does we take another blow too our dps. As far as troub/illusionists are concerned I wouldnt worry too much about your place on raids because you are not there for your dps in the first place. I know for a fact I will still be grpd with a troubador after these changes for there awesome aa crit buffs and excellent grp hate reducing abilites. However , If my dps goes down much more then the 1k mark I may find myself once again sitting out on the sidelines like in most of T6. I also feel a minor reduction in necro/mage pets dps might be in order or as has been suggested in similar threads increasing the hate generation of the pets. I have actually seen parses on raid mobs of conj pets doing more then 1kdps which in my opinion is slightly overpowered. Also the main reason they are changing this I believe is too do with an issue with illusionist aa cast reduction which is massive allowing them too proc unbelievable amounts of damage on very fast casting spells. Instead of addressing that issue they are going too all around nerf casters . I am not certain but It definately seems possible that this change will negatively effect sorcerer's (wizards especially) and though I am not unhappy with my dps now I do really have too work hard too achieve it. With any reduction in dps I do not feel I can compete with other t1 dps classes. So I guess we will just see what happens when the changes go live. Thanks for listening ... Zyphon Level 70 Wizard of Befallen...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you really happy with your 1k dps when grouping with a troubador + epic 3.0 + 50 AA?... It's low as a t1 dps class, dont you think? An assassin without epic 3.0 weapon (my friend is using t7 legendary weapons + handcrafted poison) can already do 1100 dps. And that's without a bard and with only 37 AA. With more dps and haste buff, he's going to do 1400+ dps, while we sorceres can only do their unbuffed dps when buffed, and we also run out of mana so fast. Other than assassins, rangers and rogues and sometimes even monks (with dps buff and str line AA) can do higher dps than sorcerers. We're clrealy not t1 dps right now.<BR>

[massem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>masseman wrote:<BR><BR>Masseman, That a bit rude, don't you think?  Telling a class to shut up.   </P> <P>Civility.  It's not just for breakfast anymore, and there is enough to go around<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure thats rude - people who make civil posts get civil replies from me. Rude posts get rude replies, and the one I replied to was a rude one :smileyhappy:</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Yon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>masseman wrote:<BR> ---------------------------------------------<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Prandtl wrote:<BR> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>masseman wrote:<BR><BR>Masseman, That a bit rude, don't you think?  Telling a class to shut up.   </P> <P>Civility.  It's not just for breakfast anymore, and there is enough to go around<BR></P>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure thats rude - people who make civil posts get civil replies from me. Rude posts get rude replies, and the one I replied to was a rude one :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR> </P><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Who was it who started by saying ragners are the most hated class in the game and we should keep our noses out of other peoples buisness? Oh yea you.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Rude posts get rude replies</P> <P> </P> <P>Also saying we are whining and sticking our noses where they don't belong is EXTREMELY hypocritical.  Honestly go find the boards with rangers crying nerf for wizzies and vise versa.  Start by finding atleast 2 liek I did.</P> <P>How about I say it is my buisness because if you got deagros who would want a ranger who did less dps if they could get a warlock who does more dsp for jsut as little agro risk.  </P> <P>Same type of twisted logic sorcerers used.  </P> <P> </P> <P>And for the record I NEVER said rangers didn't need to be nerfed I know we were overpowerd.  I was saying that you guys whine and whined about us and definately 'stuck your noses' into our buisness WAY more than we have into yours.</P> <P> </P> <P>Some reason the horizontal bars are registering as invalid html on my computer.  Happened this message too.  Thats why other one is so big had to copy it to word pad and paste it back.</P><p>Message Edited by Yonar on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[Xarov]

keep this thread constructive pls, dont give mods a reason to lock it, sorceror issues need to get out fast... cmon yall keep it civil

[Aienaa]

<P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Are you really happy with your 1k dps when grouping with a troubador + epic 3.0 + 50 AA?... It's low as a t1 dps class, dont you think? An assassin without epic 3.0 weapon (my friend is using t7 legendary weapons + handcrafted poison) can already do 1100 dps. And that's without a bard and with only 37 AA. With more dps and haste buff, he's going to do 1400+ dps, while we sorceres can only do their unbuffed dps when buffed, and we also run out of mana so fast. Other than assassins, rangers and rogues and sometimes even monks (with dps buff and str line AA) can do higher dps than sorcerers. We're clrealy not t1 dps right now.</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>And when a group encounter is involved, your Assassin friend is still only doing 1100 DPS while your DPS goes up to 2500+, but we won't mention that because in the AE arena you pull far ahead of the Assassin...  And again, you are comparing the DPS an Assassin can do once every 15 mins to DPS you can do every encounter....</P> <P>I also hate to break it to you, all T7 poisons are handcrafted, there is no such thing as legendary poisons in T7.....</P> <P>The 2 wizards we have in my guild are constantly doing 1k+ DPS at raids on single target mobs and alot higher than that on group encounters.....  They do that without having Epic 3.0 or 50 AA, so if your not able to do this then there is something wrong with you, not with your class....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Nilla - 70 Alchemist</P>

[Aienaa]

<P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>As far as troub/illusionists are concerned I wouldnt worry too much about your place on raids because you are not there for your dps in the first place. I know for a fact I will still be grpd with a troubador after these changes for there awesome aa crit buffs and excellent grp hate reducing abilites.</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>This is the only part of what you said that I have a problem with....  I have a 61 Troub and I know that a very good chuck of my DPS comes from my Aria line spell Proc....  I also know that the majority of my spells ar 1.0 second cast time...  This means that my proc rate is going decline dramatically, severly reducing my DPS...</P> <P>You have completely neglected the fact that there is life beyond raids....  When in a regular group my DPS does count...  If I do ~400 DPS now, then after the change my DPS is going to drop aroun ~250...   As it is right now, every fighter class in the game does more DPS than a Troub, and this change is doing make it even worse....   Troubs are already Tier 3 at best, and with this change it will put them in thier own little tier below Tier 4...</P> <P>Not only will it have a impact on grouping, but will have an even bigger impact on soloing...  It's already somewhat difficult to solo, and cutting our DPS by about 30-40% because of the severe reduction in spell procs, is going to make soloing a nightmare...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Are you really happy with your 1k dps when grouping with a troubador + epic 3.0 + 50 AA?... It's low as a t1 dps class, dont you think? An assassin without epic 3.0 weapon (my friend is using t7 legendary weapons + handcrafted poison) can already do 1100 dps. And that's without a bard and with only 37 AA. With more dps and haste buff, he's going to do 1400+ dps, while we sorceres can only do their unbuffed dps when buffed, and we also run out of mana so fast. Other than assassins, rangers and rogues and sometimes even monks (with dps buff and str line AA) can do higher dps than sorcerers. We're clrealy not t1 dps right now.</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>And when a group encounter is involved, your Assassin friend is still only doing 1100 DPS while your DPS goes up to 2500+, but we won't mention that because in the AE arena you pull far ahead of the Assassin...  And again, you are comparing the DPS an Assassin can do once every 15 mins to DPS you can do every encounter....</P> <P>I also hate to break it to you, all T7 poisons are handcrafted, there is no such thing as legendary poisons in T7.....</P> <P>The 2 wizards we have in my guild are constantly doing 1k+ DPS at raids on single target mobs and alot higher than that on group encounters.....  They do that without having Epic 3.0 or 50 AA, so if your not able to do this then there is something wrong with you, not with your class....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Nilla - 70 Alchemist</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think wizards are fine compared to assassins... EXCEPT on aggro management</P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[Aienaa]

<P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>I think wizards are fine compared to assassins... EXCEPT on aggro management</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>I can agree with you on that....  When the 2 wizards in my guild have to have macros that say.....</P> <P>"Incomming Fusion (or other spell name), don't heal me"</P> <P>or...</P> <P>"Dead Wizzy incomming.... Burn baby burn...."</P> <P>You know there is something wrong.....   We try to get both of our Wizards in a Troubdor group for hate reduction, but sometimes that isn't even enough....  I know that if thier nukes created a little less hate, they could easily out DPS me on single target encounters...  The biggest problem is that they have to hold back, which is the same problem Assassins had in T5 before they introduced hate transfer and Concealment in the combat reballance and T6....</P> <P>I know you guys got a familiar from the first AA skill.... Isn't one of the familiars that you can use a hate reduction one?  If so, how much hate reduction does it provide you?   Maybe something can be adjusted to that to increase it's hate reduction....  At least that would be a step in the right direction to helping with your agro control...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador  /  Nilla - 45 Coercer (70 Alchemist)</P>

[enrique_to]

<P>Whe have both Direct AE damage and DoT AE damage. And Both generate a insane amount of agroo.</P> <P>You do a similar amount of damage. On long fight even more damage than us cause we go out of mana. And of course you won't get agroo if your pets do not die. </P> <P>Our agroo management System is really poor. And our Utility and damage output do not Justify that. Our class is unbalanced. That's all.</P>

[enrique_to]

<P>Pet agroo reduction is hilarious...</P> <P>2% agroo reduction.</P> <P>AA agroo reduction at full potential I think is 10% WOW!!!</P> <P>GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT!!! and of course is no agroo transfer. Just agroo reduction!!!</P> <P>That AA line Should not be mandatory...</P> <P>We need a REAL agroo managment system. Not Just contusive.</P>

[massem]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Yonar wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Who was it who started by saying ragners are the most hated class in the game and we should keep our noses out of other peoples buisness? Oh yea you.  </p> <p>Rude posts get rude replies</p> <p>Also saying we are whining and sticking our noses where they don't belong is EXTREMELY hypocritical.  Honestly go find the boards with rangers crying nerf for wizzies and vise versa.  Start by finding atleast 2 liek I did.</p> <p>How about I say it is my buisness because if you got deagros who would want a ranger who did less dps if they could get a warlock who does more dsp for jsut as little agro risk.  </p> <p>Same type of twisted logic sorcerers used.  </p> <p>And for the record I NEVER said rangers didn't need to be nerfed I know we were overpowerd.  I was saying that you guys whine and whined about us and definately 'stuck your noses' into our buisness WAY more than we have into yours.</p> <p>Some reason the horizontal bars are registering as invalid html on my computer.  Happened this message too.  Thats why other one is so big had to copy it to word pad and paste it back.</p><p>Message Edited by Yonar on <span class="date_text">04-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Since you seem to be primarily interested in who calls or called nerf on whom, please start your own thread to discuss this issue, before the admins lock this one because it has been derailed. This thread is about issues regarding the Sorcerer class. As a whole, I think Sorcerers are much better now than we ever were before in the history of EQ2. Under ideal conditions, grouped on raids with a troubadour and illusionist, and with  we can do true T1 DPS, I think my record is around 1300-1400 DPS on single target undel ideal conditions. Which is far more than we could ever hope for before KoS release so some fixes has definately been applied. On the other hand our DPS capability without the buffer classes is truly sad for a DPS class, usually 600-700 DPS unless there is someone providing power regen and aggro management. Since our guild troubadour has gone on a long holiday, I have been raiding a lot without a troubadour lately and am getting fairly sick of it.  The 2.5% aggro reduction our pet provides is a complete joke compared to the rangers 40% and definately need to be increased, or we need to have a new spell line with aggro reduction. Also, our damage-to-power ratio need to be improved. - Its the worst in the game and we don't even have a viable auto attack to use when we go OOP - since we don't have autoattack we should have the best damage-to-power ratio - not the worst. <span>Occasionally our ranger pulls aggro even with a 40% aggro reducer so the DPS can't be all that bad.</span> In my guild raids, we wizards usually have a competions about who can outDPS the Guardian MT when we don't have the power regen, and its usally a quite an even race <span>:smileyhappy:. If we match the ranger and assassins DPS initially in the fight, typically they have 70-80% power left when we run out. </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:23 AM</span>

[foulpla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>yadda yadda</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Those are the two problems with wizards IMHO, Agro management and power usage, both act as roadblocks on our way to DPS.  You can't nuke hard or you have a monster stomping you, and if you nuke any more than the bare minimum you run out of power near instantly, my main job in guild raids is no longer DPS but rather feeding power to the healers -_-.

[Aienaa]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The 2.5% aggro reduction our pet provides is a complete joke compared to the rangers 40% and definately need to be increased, or we need to have a new spell line with aggro reduction. Also, our damage-to-power ratio need to be improved. - Its the worst in the game and we don't even have a viable auto attack to use when we go OOP - since we don't have autoattack we should have the best damage-to-power ratio - not the worst. </FONT><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>Occasionally our ranger pulls aggro even with a 40% aggro reducer so the DPS can't be all that bad.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll agree that you guys need a little something to help with agro management.....   With all your hard hitting spells, which create huge amounts of agro, you need something to be able to offset some of that agro....    Like I said in a previous post, what hold you guys back the most from doing your potential DPS is the agro generated....   Maybe an adjustment to the amount of agro you get from casting your spells are in order and another thing they could do is bump up the hate reduction on your familiar....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You compared your agro management to the Ranger hate reduction...  I want to include that Assassins have a hate transfer, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time....  If I were you, I would not shoot for a hate transfer, but for more agro reduction...  The curse part of my hate transfer is that you can give another person enough hate that they will end up pulling agro and potentially killing them....  There is nothing worse than killing one of your own group members....  This is a particular problem in raids, hence the reason Assassins generally get grouped with Troubadors....   Another thing that Assassins have is a short duration stealth/agro reducer....  This allows the assassin to pull off a few high damage attacks without accumulating as much hate for it....  Maybe they could come up with something similiar for the sorcerer classes if they can somehow fit it into the lore....  Maybe something along the lines of a Blink type spell (Blinks the caster for X number of spells cast and reduces hate towards the caster by XX%)....  Blink a teleport with a very short range (something like within 3m)....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>If we match the ranger and assassins DPS initially in the fight, typically they have 70-80% power left when we run out.</FONT> <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can shed a little light on this.... First off, 70-80% is probably an exageration on your part, because I know I am usually down around 40-50% at the end of most fights and nearly empty on really long fights....  Besides that....   It's not like the Ranger or Assassin are just sitting back and pulling off the high DPS, because that is far from the truth....  We actually have to work our butts off to get the high DPS....  In and out between melee and ranged....  Stealthing and positioning....  So times it's rather frustating, but we do it all the time....   The thing is, out CAs have long recast times....  The ones that effect us the most is stealth attacks...  We only have 2 realistic ways to go into stealth, but we have 5 main stealth attacks....  so we are waiting on timers so we can go back into stealth in order to do the next attack....  Needless to say, this bottleneck reduces our power usage because of the wait time.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, I will agree with you that Wizards are a power pig class along with a few others like Fury....  Power costs on spells are too high and you run out of power too fast....  That is something they should check into and do some adjusting....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</DIV></SPAN>

[massem]

<div></div> <blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div> <hr> </div> <blockquote><div>You compared your agro management to the Ranger hate reduction...  I want to include that Assassins have a hate transfer, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time....  <font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000">I agree completely. I believe the hate transfer that Assassins get is slightly better than the ranger hate reducer for group play where you can always give hat to the tank,  but a lot worse in raids since often there is noone to transfer hate to - my guildie assassins often don't use it at all on raids for the reasons you mention. It could however be useful to place an assassin in the MT group just to generate hate to transfer to the MT, but normally a Dirge or Coercer would be better.</font><font color="#ff0000"> </font> </div> <div> <hr> <font color="#ffff00">If we match the ranger and assassins DPS initially in the fight, typically they have 70-80% power left when we run out.</font> <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div>I can shed a little light on this.... First off, 70-80% is probably an exageration on your part, because I know I am usually down around 40-50% at the end of most fights and nearly empty on really long fights....  Besides that....   It's not like the Ranger or Assassin are just sitting back and pulling off the high DPS, because that is far from the truth....  <font color="#ff0000">Sure you have to work, but to get max DPS also wizards have to joust nowadays to cast Fusion, which requires very good precision. You have 5 sec cast time, and you must position yourself so we don't accidentally hit two mobs (which would mean certain death on epic mobs that can't be rooted) and you need to be out of AE range  before it hits again, since most AEs kills a mage instantly unless we gear up insane resists. Assassins and rangewrs joust more of course, because we have only one joust per fight and you have to do it all the time.  Usually a Wizard would run out of power maybe halfway into the fight on typical junkmob epic, so if you finish at 40-50% probably you are at 70-80 halfway into the fight. I sort of like your idea with the blink stuff. It could work something like this: We run in casting range for fusion, cast the blink spell and fusion and disappear before the mobs realise what hit them. If we could get one or two completely non-hate producing spell casts per fight it would help a lot. It would also require some coordination similar to what assassins already have to do to get your high damage attacks in. </font></div><hr></blockquote> <hr></blockquote><div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>04-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 AM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>I think wizards are fine compared to assassins... EXCEPT on aggro management</FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P>I can agree with you on that....  When the 2 wizards in my guild have to have macros that say.....</P> <P>"Incomming Fusion (or other spell name), don't heal me"</P> <P>or...</P> <P>"Dead Wizzy incomming.... Burn baby burn...."</P> <P>You know there is something wrong.....   We try to get both of our Wizards in a Troubdor group for hate reduction, but sometimes that isn't even enough....  <FONT color=#ffcc00>I know that if thier nukes created a little less hate, they could easily out DPS me on single target encounters</FONT>...  The biggest problem is that they have to hold back, which is the same problem Assassins had in T5 before they introduced hate transfer and Concealment in the combat reballance and T6....</P> <P>I know you guys got a familiar from the first AA skill.... Isn't one of the familiars that you can use a hate reduction one?  If so, how much hate reduction does it provide you?   Maybe something can be adjusted to that to increase it's hate reduction....  At least that would be a step in the right direction to helping with your agro control...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador  /  Nilla - 45 Coercer (70 Alchemist)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In everquest 1 that statement would be correct... but really you can't adjust your aggro like you could in eq1... cause we don't have the fast damage out put like we did in that game.  Pretty much aggro in eq1 was all about the person doin the damage... in eq2 its all about the tank.  So basicly what happens if a taunt gets resisted or tank gets stunned as he was taunting then thats when we die.... So our dps would stay the same really it would just be less deaths

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <BR>As a whole, I think Sorcerers are much better now than we ever were before in the history of EQ2. Under ideal conditions, grouped on raids with a troubadour and illusionist, and with  we can do true T1 DPS, I think my record is around 1300-1400 DPS on single target undel ideal conditions. Which is far more than we could ever hope for before KoS release so some fixes has definately been applied. On the other hand our DPS capability without the buffer classes is truly sad for a DPS class, usually 600-700 DPS unless there is someone providing power regen and aggro management. Since our guild troubadour has gone on a long holiday, I have been raiding a lot without a troubadour lately and am getting fairly sick of it.  <BR><BR>The 2.5% aggro reduction our pet provides is a complete joke compared to the rangers 40% and definately need to be increased, or we need to have a new spell line with aggro reduction. Also, our damage-to-power ratio need to be improved. - Its the worst in the game and we don't even have a viable auto attack to use when we go OOP - since we don't have autoattack we should have the best damage-to-power ratio - not the worst. <SPAN>Occasionally our ranger pulls aggro even with a 40% aggro reducer so the DPS can't be all that bad.</SPAN><BR><BR>In my guild raids, we wizards usually have a competions about who can outDPS the Guardian MT when we don't have the power regen, and its usally a quite an even race <SPAN>:smileyhappy:. If we match the ranger and assassins DPS initially in the fight, typically they have 70-80% power left when we run out. </SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is exactly what I wanted to say: sorcerers' dps is too low WITHOUT any buff / mana regen from other classes compared to other t1 or t2 classes mainly because of mana and aggro!<BR>It's really sad when I see my dps are lower than our MT or a summoner's pet, when we dont have any buff / regen from other classes.

[Xarov]

Again i made this thread specifically for sorceror issues, if you want to voice your own class issues pls make your own thread, thanks

[Zypho]

<DIV>hahahah that was really an example... also it depends on what parsing program you are using ) on single target encounters which is really what raids are all about I am parsing right up there with the assasin right now ) I was simply posting that wizards are not currently broken but may become so with the upcoming change lol... thx for turning my post around in an attempt too twist my words and insult me ) I really appreciate it )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>What people are avoiding talking about is how so many classes can be right at "tier 1" damage output.  Not saying rangers need to be nerfed for output.  It's more that warlocks (and wizards) suffer on damage output from the lack of real deagro.</P> <P>I never played eq1, but I am under the impression that in eq1 fights were very slow until the wizards and warlocks could unleash.  in eq2 it's more like if you aren't precasting you aren't doing dps and this is true in raids too.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> UrkBloodAxe wrote:<BR> <P>What people are avoiding talking about is how so many classes can be right at "tier 1" damage output.  Not saying rangers need to be nerfed for output.  It's more that warlocks (and wizards) suffer on damage output from the lack of real deagro.</P> <P>I never played eq1, but I am under the impression that in eq1 fights were very slow until the wizards and warlocks could unleash.  in eq2 it's more like if you aren't precasting you aren't doing dps and this is true in raids too.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is one of the big differances.  The other is the fact that you simply had taunt and dps to hold aggro.   But now so many variables go into a tank keeping aggro its not really gaugeable...  </P> <P>For example.. in everquest 1 i could tell you exactly how many nukes till i pull aggro... at that time i woudl back off (wizards were truly the king of fast damage in everquest 1... due to no recast times on the big nukes)  In everquest 2 that is impossible... its 100% the tanks fault if i pull aggro... and that really needs to get through peoples heads now.  With a good tank i will NEVER pull aggro.. with a crappy tank i'll pull aggro often.</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> UrkBloodAxe wrote:<BR> <P>What people are avoiding talking about is how so many classes can be right at "tier 1" damage output.  Not saying rangers need to be nerfed for output.  It's more that warlocks (and wizards) suffer on damage output from the lack of real deagro.</P> <P>I never played eq1, but I am under the impression that in eq1 fights were very slow until the wizards and warlocks could unleash.  in eq2 it's more like if you aren't precasting you aren't doing dps and this is true in raids too.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is one of the big differances.  The other is the fact that you simply had taunt and dps to hold aggro.   But now so many variables go into a tank keeping aggro its not really gaugeable...  </P> <P>For example.. in everquest 1 i could tell you exactly how many nukes till i pull aggro... at that time i woudl back off (wizards were truly the king of fast damage in everquest 1... due to no recast times on the big nukes)  In everquest 2 that is impossible... its 100% the tanks fault if i pull aggro... and that really needs to get through peoples heads now.  With a good tank i will NEVER pull aggro.. with a crappy tank i'll pull aggro often.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>typical trash mob fights in eq1 took over a minute to bring down.  typical cast timers on our big nukes were 8 seconds.  with no recast.</P> <P>you could easily drop a mobs hp (in eq1) by 20% on one single big nuke cast.  then que it up again and cast it again.</P> <P>The biggest difference between this rendition and the old one is that its faster paced.</P> <P>Meaning classes dps is much higher in eq2 than eq1.  It may be that mobs hp are pretty close to the same # wise as in eq1 we just have THAT much more dps in a group.  </P> <P>What eq2 is imho has attempted to do is to allow casters to chain cast nukes with a good set up unlike eq1 where you had to wait wait wait nuke, consussion, nuke, consussion nuke wait wait  ect.</P> <P>Personally I think eq2 is more fun to play a wiz than eq1.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> UrkBloodAxe wrote:<BR> <P>What people are avoiding talking about is how so many classes can be right at "tier 1" damage output.  Not saying rangers need to be nerfed for output.  It's more that warlocks (and wizards) suffer on damage output from the lack of real deagro.</P> <P>I never played eq1, but I am under the impression that in eq1 fights were very slow until the wizards and warlocks could unleash.  in eq2 it's more like if you aren't precasting you aren't doing dps and this is true in raids too.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is one of the big differances.  The other is the fact that you simply had taunt and dps to hold aggro.   But now so many variables go into a tank keeping aggro its not really gaugeable...  </P> <P>For example.. in everquest 1 i could tell you exactly how many nukes till i pull aggro... at that time i woudl back off (wizards were truly the king of fast damage in everquest 1... due to no recast times on the big nukes)  In everquest 2 that is impossible... its 100% the tanks fault if i pull aggro... and that really needs to get through peoples heads now.  With a good tank i will NEVER pull aggro.. with a crappy tank i'll pull aggro often.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>typical trash mob fights in eq1 took over a minute to bring down.  typical cast timers on our big nukes were 8 seconds.  with no recast.</P> <P>you could easily drop a mobs hp (in eq1) by 20% on one single big nuke cast.  then que it up again and cast it again.</P> <P>The biggest difference between this rendition and the old one is that its faster paced.</P> <P>Meaning classes dps is much higher in eq2 than eq1.  It may be that mobs hp are pretty close to the same # wise as in eq1 we just have THAT much more dps in a group.  </P> <P>What eq2 is imho has attempted to do is to allow casters to chain cast nukes with a good set up unlike eq1 where you had to wait wait wait nuke, consussion, nuke, consussion nuke wait wait  ect.</P> <P>Personally I think eq2 is more fun to play a wiz than eq1.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>way more fun... I don't think wizards are in too bad of shape atm...  What i do think we need is better aggro for AoEs.. and to make our spells slightly more effecient. </P> <P>Makes no sense to me while a conj nuke has better mana/damage ratio then a wizard</P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>05-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:50 PM</span>