Toning down HoF dmg?

[Fennir]

<div></div>Why?   It's nice having challenging mobs that aren't challenging just because you miss a lot..<div></div>Edit: to be clear, i heard reports from "Fan'Faire" that this zone was being toned down.  i do not want it toned down.  it is perfect the way it is.<p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:30 AM</span></p>

[Ixnay]

<div></div>HoF dmg doesn't need to be toned down, I single heal the zone, all mobs.

[Aedos]

<div>Yes please DONT tune down the dmg there. Is it too much to ask to have one a bit more intresting group zone in this game ?</div>

[Fennir]

<div><span>while we're measuring, i solo DPS the zone, all mobsno one does ANY damage but me i make sure of it by yelling at people who try</span></div>

[Ixnay]

<div>Ok, now I saw your edit.  Yes, I agree that this zone would no longer be fun or challenging if it was toned down.  This zone was the one single group instance you could bring someone to and see what kind of player they were, and whether they had skeelz or not.  If the zone is made easier, people will be able to trio it.</div>

[Ixnay]

<div></div>Another thought - not sure how others feel about this - just a suggestion - but what if HoF was done like Splitpaw, so you could choose the difficulty of the instance you want to zone into.  One choice could be "Original Recipe", gimped version could be known as "Extra Mild", and maybe even a new advanced version could be added and called "Extra Crispy".

[Ceruline]

<div></div><p>Well, I'm pretty sure it's not toned down at the moment on Test.</p><p> </p><p>My opinion:</p><p>At the moment, Halls of Fate is a VERY tough zone.  I like it.  Challenge justifies good rewards.</p><p>There's only one specific non-named encounter type in there I think ought to be changed - the groups of two Raiders and one Dragonspawn are MAJOR undercons, with large spike damage potential from the Raiders (Assassin mobs which don't need stealth or position to use any of the assassin skills...)  Still, I'd rather the con on these be adjusted than the challenge.</p><p>(There's also one optional named encounter that did insane damage... but since it's optional, that seems just fine, provided the encounter gives exceptional reward.   I forget the name of the encounter, but it was the Droag on the slab that you can bring to life using an activateable object.  We came nowhere near to beating him - he twoshot me, and I'm mostly in a mix of Legendary and Fabled T7 armor.  I'm all for nearly unbeatable encounters, as long as the payoff is good though!)</p><p>It's a good, hard, instance.  We've made it to Sothis, though we haven't beaten him yet, and we had a level mix of 65-70.  HoF is the toughest group instance KoS has to throw at us, at least for now.  It needs to remain nontrivial even once we're throwing full groups of 70s at it. </p>

[Ceruline]

<div></div><p>Only potential problem with having an easy mode on the zone is that it makes finishing Blood of the Brood substantially easier, given that the HoF run is one of the harder parts.  (The PoA part is quite tough also - though the vast majority of our deaths were on that blasted corridor with the invisible repulsors (They're invisible when you're running on very low graphics settings... makes getting through the hallway quite interesting))</p><p>Of course, maybe the object of making the zone easier is to make Blood of the Brood a little easier to finish... *shrugs*</p>

[Gertack_v2]

It only needs to be toned down enough that a brawler tanking without a shaman isn't 1-shotted by the berserkers after Sothis (even through Tsunami).<div></div>

[Kizee]

<div></div><p>I agree this zone should be left alone.</p><p>God forbid there is 1 group zone that is difficult.</p>

[Gaige]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gertack wrote:It only needs to be toned down enough that a brawler tanking without a shaman isn't 1-shotted by the berserkers after Sothis (even through Tsunami).<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I think HoF is set up fine despite what tank you use.  Those mobs are berserkers, and as such they debuff you and then cremate you right after.</p><p>That's the consequences of the mob changes that made them play more like their class.</p><p>To lessen the challenge at all would totally [Removed for Content] HoF.</p>

[Corasik]

<div>In general Halls of Fate doesnt need any 'toning down' in damage. What it does need is for the almost unavoidable mitigation based combat art looking at. This is used by the 'Destroyers' and makes a brawler alot less viable as a group tank in that zone. Im pretty sure I even remember a monk commenting that because its considered a spell with melee damage, even a monk's Tsunami doesnt help, as a bruiser I cant comment on that one.</div><div> </div><div>With a fair bit of legendary T7 I have no real problem with the berserker guys, as Gaige said they debuff, and then smack you down, but get the cures in and they are no problem. My issue is that the destroyers have crushing (I think) based combat arts, which are totally unavoidable (IE its considered a spell, and its resistance check is mitigation). That spell can hit for over 8k in melee damage, and they love using it. The destroyers are scattered around, and after sothis they are even grouped with the berserkers, its a pretty rough experience.</div><div> </div><div>Im sure with full T6 or T7 fabled, or whatever Gaige has these days its not a 'huge' problem, but for anyone who is mearly 'above average' its rather bad. </div><div> </div><div>While I wont argue for or against brawler raid tanks, but HOF is 'just' a high level group instance, and brawlers should be viable there, and yes, some ultra equipped brawlers can manage it, but in general with equivilent gear, a guardian can make do HOF with 1 healer, more easily than a brawler with two.</div><div> </div><div>Increasing the destroyers Autoattack damage, or making their 'melee spell' into a normal fire/cold/poisen whatever would be fine, without any change in the damage level, would maintain the difficulty level of the zone, while making brawlers an 'acceptable' choice. With most groups for instances normally only taking one fighter class, it makes getting a group there as a brawler alot harder.</div><div> </div><div>Either that, or look at a way that would let brawlers avoidance come into play when attacked by a melee based combat art. (Why shouldnt a crush/slash/pierce combat art be avoided with the same probability as autoattack damage anyway!)</div><div> </div><div>It would be sad to see the zone toned down, it just needs a quick balance check to smooth things out for normal brawlers.</div><p>Message Edited by Corasik on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 PM</span></p>

[Anariale]

HoF is already pretty trivial for a good group of lvl 70's, TBH.  I would actually like to see a new instance thats even harder, rather than nerfing the current content.<div></div>

[TalanRM]

<div></div>I agree with Anariale. HoF is one of the hardest single group zones in the game. Yet it is trivial with a high level group and a single healer. Just make sure the tougher mobs are debuffed, stunned or stifled by the time they reach the tank. It is already heavily farmed as certain legendary items drop like water there.

[Supernova17]

Leave the current difficulty of HoF as it is. The players complaining about how hard it is are obviously not geared well (by 70 you should at least be able to afford or find good gear / spells), do not know thier class / how to interact with other classes, and how to setup a well balanced group. These are the same people like the tanks that need 2 healers to exp grind in easy places.Can't we have anything hard in this game. The most fun I've had is beating a seemingly invincible mob / zone given enough time, preperation, planning and upgrading.<div></div>

[Gertack_v2]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p>I think HoF is set up fine despite what tank you use.  Those mobs are berserkers, and as such they debuff you and then cremate you right after.</p><p>That's the consequences of the mob changes that made them play more like their class.</p><p>To lessen the challenge at all would totally [Removed for Content] HoF.</p><hr></blockquote>When you go from "first hit" to "tank 1-shotted" in under 2 seconds, it's not challenge, it's silly.  Plate tanks, sure, they can survive, but not brawlers in decent gear with a non-shaman healer.  It's not Debiliate, it's just Hammer Fist to the face or similar abilities.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Gertack on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:31 PM</span></p>

[JSMINTAM]

This zone is fine the way it is. If the issue is that a bruiser cant tank it, then fix SoS so that I can solo all of the claymore line inside (70 zerker here).<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gertack wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div><p>I think HoF is set up fine despite what tank you use.  Those mobs are berserkers, and as such they debuff you and then cremate you right after.</p><p>That's the consequences of the mob changes that made them play more like their class.</p><p>To lessen the challenge at all would totally [Removed for Content] HoF.</p><hr></blockquote>When you go from "first hit" to "tank 1-shotted" in under 2 seconds, it's not challenge, it's silly.  Plate tanks, sure, they can survive, but not brawlers in decent gear with a non-shaman healer.  It's not Debiliate, it's just Hammer Fist to the face or similar abilities.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Gertack on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:31 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Cleared HoF multiple times with a monk tank and only a fury or templar healing.  Brawlers just need to spec their AA's for tanking and not for being a DPS.  If your a brawler with all your AA's set to make you a DPS class then you can't cry about not being able to tank HoF.</p><p> </p>

[-Aonein-]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:HoF is already pretty trivial for a good group of lvl 70's, TBH.  I would actually like to see a new instance thats even harder, rather than nerfing the current content.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>What you fail to understand is, its trivial for the perfect group set up, now i dont know about you, but i have not done many perfect group set up runs through there and when we do it takes a little over 1 hour to do, on averge the run takes us 2 hours. How many unorthadox groups have you taken through the zone? Id be willing to bet 0.</p><p>To be honest, it doesnt matter what class you are, Hammerfist will crush you for 3-4k dmg and there is usally two mobs in the group that can do it, if they happen to both hit, well.......good luck one healing that, if you have Debiliate, well bye bye tank.</p><p>Then we come down to the Berserkers that are past Sothis, Debiliate plus Vanquishing Blow = 12k dmg in one hit add to the fact again that the mobs also do hammerfist as well to top it off, so regaurdless if you havent got Debiliating Blow on you, the potential to be one shotted is still there if the mobs just happen to fire off 2 Hammerfists and a VB at the same time.</p><p>The loot drops need work, our last 3 runs we done in there without no Legendary chest ( besides those ones with the pieces that you use on the cub in Bonemire ) or Master, seriously wasnt worth our time for nothing but Wood chest drops.</p><p>Now if they increased the chance to drop Legendary / Master chests, id have no problem with them leaving it as is, would make alot of sense a hard zone having a high chance to drop good gear, but unfortunately SoE dont do these sorts of things, well not until we have all moved up a tier or 2, so im quite happy that there lowering the dmg output on the mobs, at least i might wanna go back there for wood chests at least..........Also id have np if they tweeked the AA xp in the zone too, i can get more Masters and more AA camping the PoA Dragons and its 5% of the risk and can be trioed, you think you can trio HoF?</p><p>Problem is for some classes and the right set up, HoF is easy, Wards are king in this zone, but you cant always get the perfect group to do it and have to go in and take it on the chin or sit back and wait for the right group to come along, personally i hate waiting, and ive done the zone that many times that i just got sick of it simply because the risk vs reward isnt there, like i said, if they boosted the AA xp and chance at Legendary / Masters, i wouldnt have a porblem the way it is, but as it stands right now, id rather spend my time in PoA camping Dragons for masters and AA xp.</p><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">04-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p>

[Bravesinger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:HoF is already pretty trivial for a good group of lvl 70's, TBH.  I would actually like to see a new instance thats even harder, rather than nerfing the current content.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>What you fail to understand is, its trivial for the perfect group set up, now i dont know about you, but i have not done many perfect group set up runs through there and when we do it takes a little over 1 hour to do, on averge the run takes us 2 hours. How many unorthadox groups have you taken through the zone? Id be willing to bet 0.</p><p>To be honest, it doesnt matter what class you are, Hammerfist will crush you for 3-4k dmg and there is usally two mobs in the group that can do it, if they happen to both hit, well.......good luck one healing that, if you have Debiliate, well bye bye tank.</p><p>Then we come down to the Berserkers that are past Sothis, Debiliate plus Vanquishing Blow = 12k dmg in one hit add to the fact again that the mobs also do hammerfist as well to top it off, so regaurdless if you havent got Debiliating Blow on you, the potential to be one shotted is still there if the mobs just happen to fire off 2 Hammerfists and a VB at the same time.</p><p>The loot drops need work, our last 3 runs we done in there without no Legendary chest ( besides those ones with the pieces that you use on the cub in Bonemire ) or Master, seriously wasnt worth our time for nothing but Wood chest drops.</p><p>Now if they increased the chance to drop Legendary / Master chests, id have no problem with them leaving it as is, would make alot of sense a hard zone having a high chance to drop good gear, but unfortunately SoE dont do these sorts of things, well not until we have all moved up a tier or 2, so im quite happy that there lowering the dmg output on the mobs, at least i might wanna go back there for wood chests at least..........Also id have np if they tweeked the AA xp in the zone too, i can get more Masters and more AA camping the PoA Dragons and its 5% of the risk and can be trioed, you think you can trio HoF?</p><p>Problem is for some classes and the right set up, HoF is easy, Wards are king in this zone, but you cant always get the perfect group to do it and have to go in and take it on the chin or sit back and wait for the right group to come along, personally i hate waiting, and ive done the zone that many times that i just got sick of it simply because the risk vs reward isnt there, like i said, if they boosted the AA xp and chance at Legendary / Masters, i wouldnt have a porblem the way it is, but as it stands right now, id rather spend my time in PoA camping Dragons for masters and AA xp.</p><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">04-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Taemek, you usually have some good points, but tbh this is not one of them. Why do you want to make all zones doable even if you haven't got the perfect group? I like the extra challenge this zone gives, but it only gives that challenge if you haven't got the perfect setup. If you have 2 healers and an ok tank then the zone is a piece of cake. Now you want to make it easier, so a necromancer as main healer can do it? Nah, keep it as it is. Compare it to some epicx4s. Alot of them are very easy, and doesn't require the perfect setup, and several of them are very tough and requires, that you have the perfect setup of classes. Should they also be nerfed, so any brigands can MT them if they have 9 templars as healers? No!

[Khurghan]

<div></div>I have to say I love the challange of this zone, the one-shotting due to bad luck should really go (luck does not equal skill).As for only doable with perfect group? Maybe having the optimal group set-up should make it easier, but binary??I would love too see a few more of this difficulty of instances added (rough and punishing but with a chance for decent loot/quest rewards).<div></div><p>Message Edited by Khurghan on <span class="date_text">04-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 AM</span></p>

[-Aonein-]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bravesinger wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:HoF is already pretty trivial for a good group of lvl 70's, TBH.  I would actually like to see a new instance thats even harder, rather than nerfing the current content.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>What you fail to understand is, its trivial for the perfect group set up, now i dont know about you, but i have not done many perfect group set up runs through there and when we do it takes a little over 1 hour to do, on averge the run takes us 2 hours. How many unorthadox groups have you taken through the zone? Id be willing to bet 0.</p><p>To be honest, it doesnt matter what class you are, Hammerfist will crush you for 3-4k dmg and there is usally two mobs in the group that can do it, if they happen to both hit, well.......good luck one healing that, if you have Debiliate, well bye bye tank.</p><p>Then we come down to the Berserkers that are past Sothis, Debiliate plus Vanquishing Blow = 12k dmg in one hit add to the fact again that the mobs also do hammerfist as well to top it off, so regaurdless if you havent got Debiliating Blow on you, the potential to be one shotted is still there if the mobs just happen to fire off 2 Hammerfists and a VB at the same time.</p><p>The loot drops need work, our last 3 runs we done in there without no Legendary chest ( besides those ones with the pieces that you use on the cub in Bonemire ) or Master, seriously wasnt worth our time for nothing but Wood chest drops.</p><p>Now if they increased the chance to drop Legendary / Master chests, id have no problem with them leaving it as is, would make alot of sense a hard zone having a high chance to drop good gear, but unfortunately SoE dont do these sorts of things, well not until we have all moved up a tier or 2, so im quite happy that there lowering the dmg output on the mobs, at least i might wanna go back there for wood chests at least..........Also id have np if they tweeked the AA xp in the zone too, i can get more Masters and more AA camping the PoA Dragons and its 5% of the risk and can be trioed, you think you can trio HoF?</p><p>Problem is for some classes and the right set up, HoF is easy, Wards are king in this zone, but you cant always get the perfect group to do it and have to go in and take it on the chin or sit back and wait for the right group to come along, personally i hate waiting, and ive done the zone that many times that i just got sick of it simply because the risk vs reward isnt there, like i said, if they boosted the AA xp and chance at Legendary / Masters, i wouldnt have a porblem the way it is, but as it stands right now, id rather spend my time in PoA camping Dragons for masters and AA xp.</p><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">04-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Taemek, you usually have some good points, but tbh this is not one of them. Why do you want to make all zones doable even if you haven't got the perfect group? I like the extra challenge this zone gives, but it only gives that challenge if you haven't got the perfect setup. If you have 2 healers and an ok tank then the zone is a piece of cake. Now you want to make it easier, so a necromancer as main healer can do it? Nah, keep it as it is. Compare it to some epicx4s. Alot of them are very easy, and doesn't require the perfect setup, and several of them are very tough and requires, that you have the perfect setup of classes. Should they also be nerfed, so any brigands can MT them if they have 9 templars as healers? No!<hr></blockquote><p>Exactally, while you fail to see my point, you pointed it out for me, your example of the Epic x4's is a perfect example. The zone is a tough zone, and i love the challenge, but where is the reward? Like i said 3 runs in there with nothing but wood chests and no i do not exagerate, i could go as far as to get the people i grouped with at those times in here to back me on that, was it bad luck probally, but 3 times in a row? No thanks.</p><p>Another point you missed is people love the challenege of the zone, but have you checked how much AA xp you get fro these mobs? Especially the lvl 70+ ones? My point here was its not worth the reward for the risk it posseses, look at how easy the mobs are in PoA and look at the amount of AAxp and the Master / Legendary drop ratio is on these mobs, compaired to HoF, its not even on the same playing feild.</p><p>My opion was not aimed at scaling it down to where Necros can tank and Brigands solo it, my opion is that i am fine with the way the zone is if they increase the Legendary / Master drop rate, i mean Ishnatar dropping wood man? Come on, even he is not a walk in the park even for the best group set up, he can still waste a Tank as fast as you can blink.</p><p>Thats my beef with the zone, risk vs reward isnt upto par, personally i would rather them increase the chance to get Legendary / Masters over decreasing DPS output on the mobs, but i think you know too well what SoE would rather do. Hell even make it a 2 day lock out but a 50 - 60% chance of Master and a 20 - 30% chance of Legendary and a 10% chance of Wood.</p><p>Oh one last thing, i use the best group set up in my argument because its a loooonnggg zone without it, like i said, we average it in 2 hours daily, but there is days that it takes as long as 3, just depends on group set up. People would rather spend a little over a hour doing it then 3-4 hours with a unorthadox group struggling to do it ( again do not misinform yourself, im not saying i perfer this way, im saying this is how most look at it ).</p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

Halls of Fate isn't tough you just need people that know how to play and that are willing to do a zone that requires a bit of strategy other than just taking damage and healing the tank.

[electricninjasex]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div>This zone was the one single group instance you could bring someone to and see what kind of player they were, and whether they had skeelz or not.</div><hr></blockquote> Bingo.

[Bravesinger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exactally, while you fail to see my point, you pointed it out for me, your example of the Epic x4's is a perfect example. The zone is a tough zone, and i love the challenge, but where is the reward? Like i said 3 runs in there with nothing but wood chests and no i do not exagerate, i could go as far as to get the people i grouped with at those times in here to back me on that, was it bad luck probally, but 3 times in a row? No thanks. <P>Another point you missed is people love the challenege of the zone, but have you checked how much AA xp you get fro these mobs? Especially the lvl 70+ ones? My point here was its not worth the reward for the risk it posseses, look at how easy the mobs are in PoA and look at the amount of AAxp and the Master / Legendary drop ratio is on these mobs, compaired to HoF, its not even on the same playing feild.</P> <P>My opion was not aimed at scaling it down to where Necros can tank and Brigands solo it, my opion is that i am fine with the way the zone is if they increase the Legendary / Master drop rate, i mean Ishnatar dropping wood man? Come on, even he is not a walk in the park even for the best group set up, he can still waste a Tank as fast as you can blink.</P> <P>Thats my beef with the zone, risk vs reward isnt upto par, personally i would rather them increase the chance to get Legendary / Masters over decreasing DPS output on the mobs, but i think you know too well what SoE would rather do. Hell even make it a 2 day lock out but a 50 - 60% chance of Master and a 20 - 30% chance of Legendary and a 10% chance of Wood.</P> <P>Oh one last thing, i use the best group set up in my argument because its a loooonnggg zone without it, like i said, we average it in 2 hours daily, but there is days that it takes as long as 3, just depends on group set up. People would rather spend a little over a hour doing it then 3-4 hours with a unorthadox group struggling to do it ( again do not misinform yourself, im not saying i perfer this way, im saying this is how most look at it ).</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>3 runs with no master/legendary can be a bit annoying. But if you want a 10% chance for wood, then there will still be 1:1000 chance that you do 3 runs in a row with only wood. It sucks, but that is not unlikely it will happen to alot, since it is a frequently used zone

[quetzaqotl]

<P>I havent been to hof in a week or so, but one thing Ive noticed that got changed in another zone on live , the raid zone lab of lord vyemm, is that the mobs are no longer using the skill dispatch, the worst they can do is debilliate (its stacks tho so you still gotta cure), making this zone much easier.</P> <P>So not sure if the mobs in hof still use dispatch, but I guess the dumbing down has already begun. </P>

[Whitemane]

<P>Dont tune the zone down its a fun zone that seperates the 'not so good from on the ball healers'. ( Cures are your friend in here big time ). If you have a healer that actually cures the debuffs this zone is pretty easy. Its only the 4000mit debuffs that make it dangerous.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemma(s) 70 Templar</P>

[Tasnus]

I agree, the zone isn't very difficult to begin with for a group of lvl 69-70s as long as you have a semi-awake healer.Give us Icy Digs v2.0 please <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I want a single group zone with insane mobs like those epic x2's.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>I loved Icy Diggs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>OK maybe I didn't love the so so loot that dropped alot but the zone itself hell ya.  That zone use to be the funnest zone to try and beat.  HoF comes close to matching Diggs and that's why I like it so much.  Hard zones like this are a good and fun thing.  Please don't take that away.</P> <P> </P>

[klepp]

theyre toning it down because all the whiner's are chirping about how its too hard ect.... please dont tel lme this comes as a surprise... anything thats "hard/difficult" in eq2 has already been or will eventually be made easier.  Its an mmorpg thats designed by barney the dinosaur himself.  Next LU = cheat codes111

[Aerebus]

I like HoF, it is a challenge for sure and even at 70 I'll still take a death or two. I really wouldnt want the zone toned down but I would agree the loot could use a bump. Some of the loot is great but some could really use a little help.

[Emerix]

<DIV>I really support the idea of makin HoF scale like  the Splitpaw instances .  give us an easier instance if were lazy and a harder version if we need our butts kicked . rare drop rates could be like 5 % 10 % 15 % ((easy/normal/hard)) . That sounds balanced imho .</DIV>

[airgrazor]

<DIV>The only thing that should be done is an adjustment of con level.  I find it stupid I can get one shotted by blue mobs.  The experiance/aa rewards should be equivalent to the challenge.</DIV>

[Phank]

<P>Halls of Fate is perfect the way it is.</P> <P>Don't touch a thing.</P> <P>Vaults on the other hand...  Lol</P>

[Sokolov]

I love HoF.  But I do one have small concern. Hammer Fist seems to have very weird damage numbers, ranging anywhere from 2k to over 13k.  Now, when the 13k hit my tank, it was more than enough to one-shot him even with a ward up.  Is this intended?  Maybe there was a debuff I didn't see or something.  Have to admit, the reaction on ventrilo to that 13k hit was pretty funny. <div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>They only hit for 13K like that if you don't cure the mobs debuffs.  That's why this zone is so fun because people have to be on the ball and pay attention.  If you go in with people that don't pay attention or aren't good at playing their class you die.</P> <P>Cures are your friend.</P> <P> </P>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div> <p>They only hit for 13K like that if you don't cure the mobs debuffs.  That's why this zone is so fun because people have to be on the ball and pay attention.  If you go in with people that don't pay attention or aren't good at playing their class you die.</p> <p>Cures are your friend.</p> <hr></blockquote>My healer partner and I must've missed the debuff then.</div>

[Xarov]

<P>/sigh... SoE yet again is gonna [Removed for Content] a zone that was fun to do... Instead of worrying about this instance why dont you do something USEFUL like fix various class AA"s ( make them at least useable instead of useless "cough sorcerors with combat arts cough" ) </P> <P>WTG SoE great way on "fixing" things </P>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>Welcome to SOE's version of WoW. Keep dumbing down the game and people will go to Vanguard to try to find a challenge.</DIV>

[Anariale]

If my perfect group you mean:1 Tank1 Healer4 Anything elseThen yeah, the zone is trivial for the perfect group.The zone isnt even a challenge anymore... its rather boring TBH.  My hint for you... make sure your healer cures elemental as soon as they see it.<div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>If my perfect group you mean:<BR>1 Tank<BR>1 Healer<BR>4 Anything else<BR><BR>Then yeah, the zone is trivial for the perfect group.<BR>The zone isnt even a challenge anymore... its rather boring TBH.  My hint for you... make sure your healer cures elemental as soon as they see it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its Trama and its Piercing hence being Trama based which means only way to have it miss you is to block it, dodge it, riposte it ( if it can be ripo'd ) or absorb it with Wards. Which is why i said Wards are king in this zone.</P> <P>No 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 anything else isnt trivial and i would personally love to see you do it with 1 tank of any kind, 1 healer of any kind and a variety of classes, for example if you take one healer in there that cant ward, and you have alot of melee for Doom Lord, i can bet you that those people, the melee will be dead before Doom Lord is, unless they run away.</P> <P>Id love to see a Fury one heal it.......:smileysurprised:</P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> airgrazor wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that should be done is an adjustment of con level.  I find it stupid I can get one shotted by blue mobs.  The experiance/aa rewards should be equivalent to the challenge.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point exactally.</DIV></DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>If my perfect group you mean:<BR>1 Tank<BR>1 Healer<BR>4 Anything else<BR><BR>Then yeah, the zone is trivial for the perfect group.<BR>The zone isnt even a challenge anymore... its rather boring TBH.  My hint for you... make sure your healer cures elemental as soon as they see it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its Trama and its Piercing hence being Trama based which means only way to have it miss you is to block it, dodge it, riposte it ( if it can be ripo'd ) or absorb it with Wards. Which is why i said Wards are king in this zone.</P> <P>No 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 anything else isnt trivial and i would personally love to see you do it with 1 tank of any kind, 1 healer of any kind and a variety of classes, for example if you take one healer in there that cant ward, and you have alot of melee for Doom Lord, i can bet you that those people, the melee will be dead before Doom Lord is, unless they run away.</P> <P>Id love to see a Fury one heal it.......:smileysurprised:</P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> airgrazor wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that should be done is an adjustment of con level.  I find it stupid I can get one shotted by blue mobs.  The experiance/aa rewards should be equivalent to the challenge.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point exactally.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We  do it all the time with a monk tank and a single fury healing.

[Gertack_v2]

<div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div> <p>Its Trama and its Piercing hence being Trama based which means only way to have it miss you is to block it, dodge it, riposte it ( if it can be ripo'd ) or absorb it with Wards. Which is why i said Wards are king in this zone.</p> <p>No 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 anything else isnt trivial and i would personally love to see you do it with 1 tank of any kind, 1 healer of any kind and a variety of classes, for example if you take one healer in there that cant ward, and you have alot of melee for Doom Lord, i can bet you that those people, the melee will be dead before Doom Lord is, unless they run away.</p> <p>Id love to see a Fury one heal it.......:smileysurprised:</p></div></blockquote>I do solo heal it, just not when the monk gets 1-shotted.  And before you say they need an AA to tank it, think about why an AA should be required to tank something that plate can do anyway.</div>

[Gorhauth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div>Welcome to SOE's version of WoW. Keep dumbing down the game and people will go to Vanguard to try to find a challenge.</div><hr></blockquote>I love it when people say that.  You can tell it is only the people who aren't in the Vanguard Beta and who don't follow it very closely.  All through Beta the players have been complaining that it is being 'WoWified', and the Beta Release Notes that are posted get the people who aren't even IN beta complaining about the WoWification.You either need to come up with a different comparison, or get ready for a huge disappointment.</div>

[Kizee]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gertack wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>I do solo heal it, just not when the monk gets 1-shotted.  And before you say they need an AA to tank it, think about why an AA should be required to tank something that plate can do anyway.<BR></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why do Templars have to be balanced to other priest DPS with AA's? It is just how SOE is.... you would think they would have learned from EQ1 that balancing classes around AA's is a bad idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope they don't change this zone. It is the 1 zone I don't fall asleep healing in.</DIV>

[TalanRM]

<DIV>It isn't right (IMHO) to talk about toning down a whole zone just because a single named in it is very occaisonally able to one-shot the tank. Keep the mobs snared, debuffed and stifled, stunned and/ or interrupted according to what the group can do and the odds of the one-shot kill decrease dramatically. Even if the one-shot does happen (which I've never seen but understand it is possible) it takes around a whole minute to revive, re-buff and run back, hardly a disaster?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I rarely do the zone with a 'perfect group', usually just a couple of friends and mainly a pick-up group. Having done the zone with both plate and non-plate tanks there has never been a problem - and I'm just in a small family guild reasonably but not especially well equipped. There is not a single difficult group zone in the game (if you are using a full group) and there is certainly no need to nerf down the few zones that actually require a modicum of concentration when playing.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TalanRM on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:25 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gertack wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <P>Its Trama and its Piercing hence being Trama based which means only way to have it miss you is to block it, dodge it, riposte it ( if it can be ripo'd ) or absorb it with Wards. Which is why i said Wards are king in this zone.</P> <P>No 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 anything else isnt trivial and i would personally love to see you do it with 1 tank of any kind, 1 healer of any kind and a variety of classes, for example if you take one healer in there that cant ward, and you have alot of melee for Doom Lord, i can bet you that those people, the melee will be dead before Doom Lord is, unless they run away.</P> <P>Id love to see a Fury one heal it.......:smileysurprised:</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I do solo heal it, just not when the monk gets 1-shotted.  And before you say they need an AA to tank it, think about why an AA should be required to tank something that plate can do anyway.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me a tad bit more elaborate, you see the example we were given was 1 of any tank and 1 of any healer, then 4 of any other class, i would love to see a Fury single heal a Plate class tank in this zone, seeing as its trivial anyway you look at it, right?</P> <P>Khalan, id be intrested in hearing a bit more about your group set up then you just coming here and saying we use a Fury to one heal it all the time, because i have tried many Furys one healing that, and me being a Plate class tank, doesnt work out too well, but we are saying its trivilized right? Regaurdless of setup, id also like to see the Tanks gear that you go in with, next you will tell me he wears all Xegonite............</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gertack wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>I do solo heal it, just not when the monk gets 1-shotted.  And before you say they need an AA to tank it, think about why an AA should be required to tank something that plate can do anyway.<BR></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why do Templars have to be balanced to other priest DPS with AA's? It is just how SOE is.... you would think they would have learned from EQ1 that balancing classes around AA's is a bad idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope they don't change this zone. It is the 1 zone I don't fall asleep healing in.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said and yeah, you would think that, but here we are with a game that is cross EQlive with WoW.<p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 AM</span>

[Gornd]

First off I want to say that I want HoF to be a very challenging zone for any group.  I like challenge, with good risk vs reward.  Therefore, I would like to at least keep the same difficultt.  However, there are underlying issues here that are affect this zone unintentionally. 1)  Some combat abilities are counted as spells for their to hit check.  This is obviously a bug and should be fixed.  2)  Debilitate is not scaling correctly.  At master level its supposed to do about 500-700 dmg and reduce mitigation vs Cru/Slash/Pierce by 1600.  Currently it is doing it by 4200, or 3 times as much.  3) Ishataz or whatever his name is, should not hit me for 12k dmg when I have 6k mitigation. Now, I am all for risk vs reward and I think that mobs using players abilities is a good thing.  They arent supposed to be super powerful versions of players spells, and the current strength of Debilitate makes it very tricky and risky to deal with, even with highly focused and trained people.  Its more so when its casted by raid mobs and their normal melee attacks go from 1.5k to 6k dmg.  Anyway, issues 1 and 2 should be resolved because they are core issues.  Three depends on what the developers think.  Fixing them will result in a correct zone, although it would be easier.  Therefore, the mobs should then be beefed up accordingly. <div></div>

[runamonk]

I hope they don't mess with this at all. It's great fun and it's a challenge.  You actually risk the chance of DYING! If everyone doesn't have their game face on, you're going to die. It's awesome, one of my favorites for sure.<div></div>

[Killerbee3000]

<DIV>seriously what is soe thinking? they should stop making everything easier, because if they make everything easier  then there wont be any challenge and without challenge no long time motivation. and what no long time motivation leads well ... you all know it, people will run away from the game.</DIV> <DIV>sure soe is a company and they know that noobs pay money to play this game, but they seem to forget that the non noobs are paying csutomers too</DIV>

[Sslarrga]

<DIV>Uh, a brawler respec for tanking to make HoF easier?  Uh, hello McFly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the high damage combat arts ignore avoidance and instead avoid (resist) them using MITIGATION.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last time I checked, brawlers have no Tanking AAs that involve mitigation.  IE - Any brawler tanking AA's (other than the pitiful 4% hps) is absolutely useless in this zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In HoF - Mitigation is king.  Mitigation not only helps to AVOID damage (thank you SoE for screwing over brawlers) but it also Mitigates the damage if it isn't avoided by the mitigation check.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fine with HoF the way it is if they made avoidance work the way it is supposed to.  Mitigation tanks will still have an advantage in there but at least that way they won't avoid more AND mitigate more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, I haven't failed HoF since I turned 70.  Then again, I always bring people that will make sure noone dies.  IE - 2 healers, mezzer, conj, +someone else.  Whereas just about any plate tank can waltz in there with 1 healer + anything else and do it easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Croaker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oakum]

<DIV>HoF is a tough zone and  it can be fun. While I have attempted to solo heal it once(the tank had no armor after the first fight after sothis) mostly I am alway with a shaman or cleric. The wards are almost a must have with the skariz centurions.  One group with a fury cohealing (yes I know our regens cancel each other) the tank would die before cures/heals would hit.  Ixnay must be a warding class healer, lol. Although techically I suppose no matter how many times the tank dies (sometimes he would be dead before he got back to the group when pulling from the other side of ta room) if you kill the commander, you have solo healed it. It is a more exciting place in some ways due to the tank dead on pull or within 2 seconds of pull with a group wipe cause a cure/heal hit the tank. Personally, unless doing a quest or helping a friend/guildie I dont care to go in there. As others have said, the rewards once you get the class specific armor from there.  Masters are too rare to warrant farming there. Its challenging, doable without much problem with a group of 70's with an occasion pull death sometimes,  but not worth doing when considering the average rewards per run for me. 7 times doing it all the way through. 3 times stopping before or after sothis with lower lvl tanks/groups, and 3 legendary items I can use. The other times I got about 10 gold for 2 to 3 hour runs on average. </DIV>

[Corillis Ironhi]

Please don't touch this zone. First time I went there with a group, we finished all of it. (including all the nameds)Yeah, we wiped a lot, but I never had so much fun wiping! Don't give me a watered down pantsy zone like most other zones, make it even harder if you'd please.The only thing that's a bit over the top is the mitigation debuffs from the berzerker mobs (if I remember correctly).A little problem (or is it intended?) with the zone is that there seems to be some kind of random respawn on mobs sometimes. Especially the drakes on the stairs. Pretty long run back in if you wipe deep inside, and having to go back to help eg. a healer come back after a revive or so is less fun, but I can live with that, really. FYI 70 pally tank and 66 templar healing. Rest DPS + Troub.

[Aienaa]

<P>I would prefere to see it left as is...  Fix what ever bugs there are, but don't change the difficulty.....</P> <P>Last time there we had a Guardian (AFK alot due to conference calls with work), Bruiser, Dirge, Assassin, Ranger and Fury...  The Bruiser tanked a good portion of it, while the Guardian was afk, and was constantly pulling 2 groups of mobs...  That made it a bit more interesting, yet we never wiped...</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Parody - 61 Troubador</P>

[BozEuge]

<P>don't touch this zone, it's the only one where i can have fun solo heal. only other fun an one group = use a scout as MT</P> <P>seriously, if tank is correctly geared and healer know his job, there is no real problem. </P> <P>learn to cure asap, stun the high dps mob (ask dps classes to help if needed) to reduce incomming dmg, debuff mob, etc. </P> <P>healing is not just throw a heal to refill tank hp. a good part of healer job = cure/debuff. and in some zone as hof, cure/debuff become far more important than healing</P> <P> </P> <P>now, if tanks is wearing craps, healer have app1 spells, and endlessly smash his direct heal, then i can understand it's hard. </P> <P>but in this case, problem come from players, and not from the zone</P> <P> </P>

[Giral]

<DIV>SOE is going to Tone down everything they re-lease it in Hard mode, a couple months later after the Hardcores have already killed all The content, they come in and weaken the Zones, Now the Middle of the road players Go in and do all the content, and then by the time the next expansion comes out these Zones become mostly soloable or small groupable,  It's sad that So many people want a Challenge , but we just keep geeting everything handed to us , Master drop's all over the Place , It was so much more rewarding to get a Master Chest off a MOB befor Re-vamp,  Now Master chests drop off names so Much my fingers Hurt from all the Gratz-ing i do in Guild Chat , Gratz, Gratz,Gratz,Gratz, Gratz, Gratz ,Gratz,  whats the Master drop rate now ? a One in Three chance ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway i dont understand why there can be 50 Easy zones And not 3 hard zones ?? there is ALL of TT,BS,and BM , why do we need to [Removed for Content] HOF>? Its a Huge expansion so so so SO many places to go , HOF to hard for you ? Go get some AA's,Master's,and Legendary armor Camping easier Zones like POA , then come back to HOF and give it another go, put a little Elbow Greese into your Game play </DIV>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>sweet - and please make the all the mobs mez-, stun- and root-able so I can solo/duo this zone.  Same for Vaults.  We really need the solo content back.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thank you,</P> <P> </P>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> UrkBloodAxe wrote:<BR> <P>sweet - and please make the all the mobs mez-, stun- and root-able so I can solo/duo this zone.  Same for Vaults.  We really need the solo content back.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thank you,</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh and make Fabled items drop off  grey corpse loot while you're at it lol.<p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class=date_text>05-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>we have cleared Hof multiple times with a  2 Guard,Zerker,Pally,SK,,Defiler <<---- befor and after all were lvl 70 ,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Toning down ??  Why?? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Only reason for Gimping Hof is for The Players that just want to Rush head first into everysingle encounter , these of course would be the ones that are dieing repeatedly,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[slippery]

<div></div>The zone really isn't hard at all... As a 70 Wizard even when I have a bad group I can stay alive. I solo Ishantaar (or whatever his name is, the guy on the table) almost every time through unless I know the tank, in which case I let him tank it. I've solo'd Katalkana, I solo the Zerker groups all the time (usually when I have a bad tank and end up rooting the group as everyone dies in the first couple seconds and sit there and finish off the group). Most of the time I go in I have a Fury solo healing either a Zerker, Pally, or SK tank. The rest of the group simply just doesn't matter. As long as your healer cures trauma you aren't going to have any problems. Another thing to try is have a mage root zerkers on pull and kill the 2 friends first. Tactics go along way to making this zone a cake walk. edit: Oh, and to the people talking about stuns there is a good portion of the mobs in the zone that are immune to stun including the Cents and Zerkers.<div></div><p>Message Edited by canoppener on <span class=date_text>05-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

[Enlighten]

<DIV><SPAN> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I think HoF is set up fine despite what tank you use.  Those mobs are berserkers, and as such they debuff you and then cremate you right after.</P> <P>That's the consequences of the mob changes that made them play more like their class.</P> <P>To lessen the challenge at all would totally [Removed for Content] HoF.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>When you go from "first hit" to "tank 1-shotted" in under 2 seconds, it's not challenge, it's silly.  Plate tanks, sure, they can survive, but not brawlers in decent gear with a non-shaman healer.  It's not Debiliate, it's just Hammer Fist to the face or similar abilities.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </SPAN></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P>Zone is fine, If healers would CURE the damm tramas It wouldnt happen. As a plate tank, 1 time I was 1shotted, only once. I rode the healer like a camel jockey after that happened.  Zone isnt that hard.</P>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sslarrga wrote:<BR> <DIV>Uh, a brawler respec for tanking to make HoF easier?  Uh, hello McFly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the high damage combat arts ignore avoidance and instead avoid (resist) them using MITIGATION.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last time I checked, brawlers have no Tanking AAs that involve mitigation.  IE - Any brawler tanking AA's (other than the pitiful 4% hps) is absolutely useless in this zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In HoF - Mitigation is king.  Mitigation not only helps to AVOID damage (thank you SoE for screwing over brawlers) but it also Mitigates the damage if it isn't avoided by the mitigation check.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fine with HoF the way it is if they made avoidance work the way it is supposed to.  Mitigation tanks will still have an advantage in there but at least that way they won't avoid more AND mitigate more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, I haven't failed HoF since I turned 70.  Then again, I always bring people that will make sure noone dies.  IE - 2 healers, mezzer, conj, +someone else.  Whereas just about any plate tank can waltz in there with 1 healer + anything else and do it easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Croaker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To me that sounds like it's working exactly as intended.</P> <P>Brawlers sacrifice some of their tanking ability for better dps. Until they get their dps beaten down with the nerf bat to match guardians they've really no argument to tank as well as plate tanks.</P> <P>It should be a noticable difference, not just a case of the healer having to occasionally toss in an extra heal. Most importantly, you shouldn't just be able to swap in for a guardian in the same group make-up and do the exact same job while putting out 50% more dps.</P> <P>I honestly don't see the problem.</P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Enlightened wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN> <DIV></SPAN> </DIV></DIV> <P>Zone is fine, If healers would CURE the damm tramas It wouldnt happen. As a plate tank, 1 time I was 1shotted, only once. I rode the healer like a camel jockey after that happened.  Zone isnt that hard.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is very easy to miss a cure especially if its stacked under 6 other tramua debuffs.</P> <P>If you had a bad healer that never cured than I can see riding him/her but if someone kept telling me to cure then I would disband the group. Kinda like me telling the tank to taunt every second. :p<BR></P>

[plantb]

<DIV>I've done this zone 4 times since KoS release.</DIV> <DIV>1st) In all cobalt armour, grped buff miti was at 3.8k - Killed the mobs need for hat quest no probs - Zerkers were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tough </DIV> <DIV>I thought it was the hardest zone I have ever done. Didnt Kill Ishataz (table dude)</DIV> <DIV>2nd) Same armour but better grp - Had a Coercer which made a blue con Destroyer a pet - As pets they HT for 12k every 15secs </DIV> <DIV>Killed everything cept for last named, as someone agroed and we wiped. After that I was naked <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>3rd) Better armour miti at around 4.2k and the group was awesome.  Died on first try of Ishataz.  So we left him till after killing soothis.  We tried some zerkers and they went down with ease, so came back to Ishataz and gave him another go, it was easy.</DIV> <DIV>4th) Had a fury and warden in the grp, I could not kill the first named despite having 4.8k mitigation at the time.  The bruiser in the group had to take over tanking.</DIV> <DIV>When we zoned in I said that the zone was gonna be tough with this group, as my HP was under 6k.  Not sure why this was, with the two healers I only got an extra 200-300hp.  The bruiser on the other hand had over 7k HP, 6k just aint enough for that zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I like the zone as it is, because it will weed out the bad tanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV><p>Message Edited by plantboy on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 AM</span>

[BozEuge]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>4th) Had a fury and warden in the grp, I could not kill the first named despite having 4.8k mitigation at the time.  The bruiser in the group had to take over tanking.</DIV> <DIV>When we zoned in I said that the zone was gonna be tough with this group, as my HP was under 6k.  Not sure why this was, with the two healers I only got an extra 200-300hp.  The bruiser on the other hand had over 7k HP, 6k just aint enough for that zone.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>your error was to take 2 druid together : their heal and buff don't stack. </DIV> <DIV>it's same if you take 2 clerics, or 2 shaman.</DIV> <DIV>except it they play together since long and communicate well, 2 healer of same archetype doesn't mean 2x the healing power. </DIV> <DIV>2 random healer of same archetype can do 1.2x; 2 used to play together can perhaps goes to 1x5. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you take 2 healer or 2 different archetype, there is no real problem of stacking and then, combined healing power can be around 1.8x (never 2, if you count times both land heal at same time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[EvilIguana9]

I love HOF because it's hard.  My only problems are as follows:1.  Sometimes you get instagibbed and it is unavoidable and totally random.  If the RNG dictates that the mobs stack their mit debuffs on you followed by a junk trauma debuff followed quickly by a high damage CA then you will very likely go down regardless of how well you can play.  I'm really not a fan of random deathtouches, but they are at least uncommon enough not to ruin the experience. 2.  The zone can be trivialized by choosing certain members of an archetype over others.  For example, warriors > crusaders > brawlers with regards to tanks.  Also, the shaman/cleric combo is borderline godlike here.  Substitute a druid for either one and you will find it much harder.  Now I'm fine with the various professions being better in some situations than others but there doesn't seem to be an alternate zone that stresses the advantages of the other classes.  Maybe this will be corrected in the Expack.  3.  The 2 hard named, Table Dude and Septimus are very nearly untankable without the perfect group.  This doesn't really bother me.  As I and my group gear up we'll get closer and closer to being able to take them.  What is kind of annoying is that if you bring a wizard, he can solo them....  Yes I can't tank it with 2 healers and killer dps but the wizard can solo it.  Seems kind of cheesy to me.  I will also note that the last time I did HoF they both dropped wood.... maybe as revenge for being soloed by a wizard.  I have tanked them both but that was with the holy grail healer combo in this zone, inqisitor + defiler.  Really though I'd rather they leave the zone as is than try to fix those issues by dumbing it down universally. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvilIguana966 wrote:<BR>I love HOF because it's hard.  My only problems are as follows:<BR><BR>1.  Sometimes you get instagibbed and it is unavoidable and totally random.  If the RNG dictates that the mobs stack their mit debuffs on you followed by a junk trauma debuff followed quickly by a high damage CA then you will very likely go down regardless of how well you can play.  I'm really not a fan of random deathtouches, but they are at least uncommon enough not to ruin the experience. <BR><BR>2.  The zone can be trivialized by choosing certain members of an archetype over others.  For example, warriors > crusaders > brawlers with regards to tanks.  Also, the shaman/cleric combo is borderline godlike here.  Substitute a druid for either one and you will find it much harder.  Now I'm fine with the various professions being better in some situations than others but there doesn't seem to be an alternate zone that stresses the advantages of the other classes.  Maybe this will be corrected in the Expack.  <BR><BR>3.  The 2 hard named, Table Dude and Septimus are very nearly untankable without the perfect group.  This doesn't really bother me.  As I and my group gear up we'll get closer and closer to being able to take them.  What is kind of annoying is that if you bring a wizard, he can solo them....  Yes I can't tank it with 2 healers and killer dps but the wizard can solo it.  Seems kind of cheesy to me.  I will also note that the last time I did HoF they both dropped wood.... maybe as revenge for being soloed by a wizard.  I have tanked them both but that was with the holy grail healer combo in this zone, inqisitor + defiler.  <BR><BR>Really though I'd rather they leave the zone as is than try to fix those issues by dumbing it down universally. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>TONS of bad info and assupmtions in your post. for one you dont need the perfect group for halls. You do need people who know what they are doing. You dont need 2 healers. I have played this zone as a mystic, warden, bruiser and troubador. i have tanked this zone as a bruiser and seen a guild monk tank it with 1 healer. In Fact last week i was 2 boxing a pick up group down into halls i had a lvl 70 guard tanking. In T7 crafted crap gear. He went down faster then a mystic and my warden could  heal on the guy on the table. So i told him i am sorry but i am going to have to have my bruiser tank. So while 2 boxing my warden and bruiser we kileld him in the first try. I then took that guard to den of devourer and gave him the dark and light chitin ring. Then i told him to go get himself the cuirass of protection because the xegonite was not cutting it. He did have the hoolah's hat. Btw gungo has very little raid gear because i don;t raid with him. Every thing gungo has is mainly quested. This expansion is the best expansion i have seen regarding legandry group and quest items in comparison to fabled raid gear. If someone is not geared properly its thier own fault for not doing the quests needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just for reference this is what gungo wears:</DIV> <DIV>hoolah hat- quest</DIV> <DIV>manacle of dark sky/ dragon sclae shoulders- group drop/quest claymore</DIV> <DIV>excarnate forearms- trash mob raid drop rotting, but crafted might be passable</DIV> <DIV>excarnate gloves- trash mob raid drop, but the restrainer mits are good too</DIV> <DIV>Bp from claymore quest- quested</DIV> <DIV>endbringers leggings - hof 1 group</DIV> <DIV>boots of bashing or dragonhide-crafted or quested</DIV> <DIV>2 light chitin rings- excellent raid resists and ac</DIV> <DIV>Dragonscale earring- claymroe quest earring</DIV> <DIV>Mark of awakened- obtained via pickup raid, me and a guild ranger ran for server.</DIV> <DIV>claymore wrist- quest</DIV> <DIV>forgot other wrist but its quested too =p</DIV> <DIV>clayamore belt-quested</DIV> <DIV>claymore range item- quested</DIV> <DIV>soul spur (primary)- quested</DIV> <DIV>prismatic 2.0 quested(raid), but strifewind is a decent quested/crafted replacement.</DIV> <DIV>T6 music box- quested</DIV> <DIV>T7 doll-crafted (and i am on the 2x epic for claymore)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> EvilIguana966 wrote:I love HOF because it's hard.  My only problems are as follows:1.  Sometimes you get instagibbed and it is unavoidable and totally random.  If the RNG dictates that the mobs stack their mit debuffs on you followed by a junk trauma debuff followed quickly by a high damage CA then you will very likely go down regardless of how well you can play.  I'm really not a fan of random deathtouches, but they are at least uncommon enough not to ruin the experience. 2.  The zone can be trivialized by choosing certain members of an archetype over others.  For example, warriors > crusaders > brawlers with regards to tanks.  Also, the shaman/cleric combo is borderline godlike here.  Substitute a druid for either one and you will find it much harder.  Now I'm fine with the various professions being better in some situations than others but there doesn't seem to be an alternate zone that stresses the advantages of the other classes.  Maybe this will be corrected in the Expack.  3.  The 2 hard named, Table Dude and Septimus are very nearly untankable without the perfect group.  This doesn't really bother me.  As I and my group gear up we'll get closer and closer to being able to take them.  What is kind of annoying is that if you bring a wizard, he can solo them....  Yes I can't tank it with 2 healers and killer dps but the wizard can solo it.  Seems kind of cheesy to me.  I will also note that the last time I did HoF they both dropped wood.... maybe as revenge for being soloed by a wizard.  I have tanked them both but that was with the holy grail healer combo in this zone, inqisitor + defiler.  Really though I'd rather they leave the zone as is than try to fix those issues by dumbing it down universally. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>TONS of bad info and assupmtions in your post. for one you dont need the perfect group for halls. You do need people who know what they are doing. You dont need 2 healers. I have played this zone as a mystic, warden, bruiser and troubador. i have tanked this zone as a bruiser and seen a guild monk tank it with 1 healer. In Fact last week i was 2 boxing a pick up group down into halls i had a lvl 70 guard tanking. In T7 crafted crap gear. He went down faster then a mystic and my warden could  heal on the guy on the table. So i told him i am sorry but i am going to have to have my bruiser tank. So while 2 boxing my warden and bruiser we kileld him in the first try. I then took that guard to den of devourer and gave him the dark and light chitin ring. Then i told him to go get himself the cuirass of protection because the xegonite was not cutting it. He did have the hoolah's hat. Btw gungo has very little raid gear because i don;t raid with him. Every thing gungo has is mainly quested. This expansion is the best expansion i have seen regarding legandry group and quest items in comparison to fabled raid gear. If someone is not geared properly its thier own fault for not doing the quests needed.</div> <div> </div> <div>Just for reference this is what gungo wears:</div> <div>hoolah hat- quest</div> <div>manacle of dark sky/ dragon sclae shoulders- group drop/quest claymore</div> <div>excarnate forearms- trash mob raid drop rotting, but crafted might be passable</div> <div>excarnate gloves- trash mob raid drop, but the restrainer mits are good too</div> <div>Bp from claymore quest- quested</div> <div>endbringers leggings - hof 1 group</div> <div>boots of bashing or dragonhide-crafted or quested</div> <div>2 light chitin rings- excellent raid resists and ac</div> <div>Dragonscale earring- claymroe quest earring</div> <div>Mark of awakened- obtained via pickup raid, me and a guild ranger ran for server.</div> <div>claymore wrist- quest</div> <div>forgot other wrist but its quested too =p</div> <div>clayamore belt-quested</div> <div>claymore range item- quested</div> <div>soul spur (primary)- quested</div> <div>prismatic 2.0 quested(raid), but strifewind is a decent quested/crafted replacement.</div> <div>T6 music box- quested</div> <div>T7 doll-crafted (and i am on the 2x epic for claymore)</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">05-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>One "bad info or assumption" does not equate to tons.  And you did not even do a very good job of pointing out where it was flawed.  First off the gear you are describing is far far above average.  The claymore questline is a huge pita for people who are not in raid guilds.  It's not hard per se, rather it's poorly designed, time syncy, and horrendously unfriendly to the casual playstyle.  I dare you to try to progress it playing mainly afternoons and without a static group of friends always on the same stage.  Finding a group of people on the same leg of the same quest who are willing to do a boring 3 hour camp is not trivial for 95% of the playerbase.  But if you want to measure the claymore questline by how hard the mobs themselves are, then yeah it's cake.  I'd like to point out though that my gear is far from bad.  But that doesn't matter, because my point still stands that from my point of view those 2 mobs are near untankable without the optimal group, but if you substitute the right class combo it's really not a big deal.  And my point still stands that it seems kind of cheesy how easy he is with a single person, the wizard, doing 95% of the work.  I certainly don't mind some mobs having to be killed with unconventional strategies, but there have to be better ways to implement that.</div>