No love for the ranger in the next LU eh?

[klepp]

<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime pre vanguard =p</div>

[JWinnard]

<div></div>LOL, rangers dont need anymore loving ...they have been give far too much already.

[Seth]

<div>Heh, dont get your hopes up about vanguard, you will be dissapointed.</div>

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime pre vanguard =p</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, did you ever notice, monks are tanks and you are not, rather than DPS calculating, may be you should pick defense calculating. And yes, as previous poster say, you will whine x100 of that if you stay in that mindset at Vanguard.</p><p> </p>

[klepp]

<div>sorry, i dont run the parser.. i just look at it when its posted.  And yea my defense calucaltor says the monks are better tanks too, and better scouts w/ FD!  As for vanguard, can it be worse than this?  It couldnt be as bad as DDO =p  And to the tool who said rangers already have enough loving lol let me guess you play a brawler or a conjuror.  Or one of those utility scouts thats already on our tail or out  dps'ing us and dont want a gap.    riiiight</div>

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>sorry, i dont run the parser.. i just look at it when its posted.  And yea my defense calucaltor says the monks are better tanks too, <font color="#ffff00">and better scouts w/ FD!</font>  As for vanguard, can it be worse than this?  It couldnt be as bad as DDO =p  And to the tool who said rangers already have enough loving lol let me guess you play a brawler or a conjuror.  Or one of those utility scouts thats already on our tail or out  dps'ing us and dont want a gap.    riiiight</div><hr></blockquote>As a monk, my top DPS is 360 in a duo enviroment at L57 against blue's. I would like to hear numbers from a ranger</div><div> </div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper! </div><hr></blockquote><div>I disagree although I think SOE should've clarified on the patch notes something like the following:</div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Combat ***</font></strong><b>Ranger:</b>- Mashing CAs won't work anymore, if you want to do dps start learning how to properly use your class.</div><div> </div><div>Worked for Assassins I am sure it can work for Rangers.</div>

[Ildarus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime pre vanguard =p</div><hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content] - Why is there always have to be someone complaining about his/her class and how they need love. It seems like the only ones not complaining anymore are Templars and Guardians. I group with a Ranger on a regular basis and I believe she is 54 and we were talking on Saturday about the fixes that went into the last LU. I can assure you that she is very happy with her DPS. See part of the problem is people rely on parsers so dang much and don't know how to just have fun. Play the class that you want to play and enjoy it. If you aren't having any fun with your class anymore start playing a different one, leave the game, or stop complaining. That is unless you have a legitimate excuse for complaining, but the majority of people in this situation are still having fun with thier Rangers despite what you are a few others may say.

[Saihung23]

<BLOCKQUOTE>Nothing to see here...edited into oblivion</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 PM</span>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Next,  its always the last resort of someone who is wrong to say "Learn how to properly play your class".  I do, I cant speak for anyone else....but I know I squeeze every last tick of DPS out of my ranger when fighting.  If not then I run a risk of being overwhelmed by some mobs.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No, it's the truth. Rangers did massive dps during t6 with little effort. Your bow attacks proc'ed a good number of times per hit, you did nothing to score 1k-1.5k dps but simply hit CAs to do massive damage.</p><p>SOE itself acknowledged this when they realized how puny a lot of your CAs were, that was overlooked because with the way procs were working nobody really cared whether a few CAs were weak or not.</p><p>It is not my last resort to anything since this is one of the few times I said something on the issue. I am not wrong, you guys just want things handed to you. Don't get me wrong, I can relate to the feeling because I was like you back then post-LU #13. I wanted SOE to make a God out of my class (Assassins).. then I moved on and started learning how to effectively play my class.</p>

[Saihung23]

<DIV>Peace Health and Happiness all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung</DIV><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 PM</span>

[Marcuzs]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaiser Sigma wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Next,  its always the last resort of someone who is wrong to say "Learn how to properly play your class".  I do, I cant speak for anyone else....but I know I squeeze every last tick of DPS out of my ranger when fighting.  If not then I run a risk of being overwhelmed by some mobs.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No, it's the truth. Rangers did massive dps during t6 with little effort. Your bow attacks proc'ed a good number of times per hit, you did nothing to score 1k-1.5k dps but simply hit CAs to do massive damage.</p><p>SOE itself acknowledged this when they realized how puny a lot of your CAs were, that was overlooked because with the way procs were working nobody really cared whether a few CAs were weak or not.</p><p>It is not my last resort to anything since this is one of the few times I said something on the issue. I am not wrong, you guys just want things handed to you. Don't get me wrong, I can relate to the feeling because I was like you back then post-LU #13. I wanted SOE to make a God out of my class (Assassins).. then I moved on and started learning how to effectively play my class.</p><hr></blockquote><p>This may be true for those who started Rangers post LU13 but don't insult those of us Rangers that have been around since the beginning. Those of us who spent nearly a year prior to LU13 working our [Removed for Content] off for DPS that was never near as good as anyone else. So ya we may have gotten a little lax in our "Glory Days" but we have no problem going back to maxing our class. And those of us who know how to play our class very well still say we are not where we need to be. Also you should note, that those Rangers who got 1300+ dps during those days were already maxing out the class and not being lazy, otherwise they would have been quite a bit lower.</p><p>If your stance is we are where Rangers need to be then the following classes need to be nerfed . . . (do you really want me to go down this line?)</p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><p>Ugh... clearly it is impossible to even try to reason with you. You hear what you want to hear and apparently are in permanent defensive stance. If I'd want to deal with overzealous people who take everything personally because they cannot understand that things can (and are) said under a general context I'd get back to religion... at least their arguments have more diversity.</p><p>Keep asking for "SOE to Love your class" and stuff, if that is what makes you happy.</p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Marcuzs wrote:<div></div><p>If your stance is we are where Rangers need to be then the following classes need to be nerfed . . . (do you really want me to go down this line?)</p><hr></blockquote>Your call because apparently you missed my point. If crying nerf makes you happy go ahead.

[Saihung23]

<BR> <DIV>Peace Health and Happiness all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 PM</span>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><p>If ignorance is bliss you... well, you must be orgasmic.</p><p>My apologies to the OP for contributing to the derailment of the thread (not that the topic was good but still..).</p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaiser Sigma wrote:<div></div><p>Ugh... clearly it is impossible to even try to reason with you. You hear what you want to hear and apparently are in permanent defensive stance. <font size="4">If I'd want to deal with overzealous people who take everything personally because they cannot understand that things can (and are) said under a general context I'd get back to religion... at least their arguments have more diversity.</font></p><p>Keep asking for "SOE to Love your class" and stuff, if that is what makes you happy.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, more words and nothing said....let me just ask one thing...WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? lmfao</p><p>"I'd get back to religion"  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], please anyone....what the hell is this guy talking about?  how did we get to religion?   Did it have anything to do with him saying he wanted his assassin to be like God?</p><p>I could say more but you do more to back up what I am saying by just posting replies....but before I leave let me see you show me where I "keep asking for "SOE to Love your class" and stuff".   Where do I say that...</p><p>Seriously, many wishes for Peace Health and Happiness</p><p>Saihung</p><hr></blockquote><p>OK Kaiser, clearly you have no point to make. What exactly is your point? Are you trying to say we need to learn how to play our class? Are you trying to say we want a god mode button? Are those the only two points you have to make?</p><p>We have heard them. We have heard them loud and clear from every non-ranger on these boards for the last 3 months. Well, believe it or not, there are a couple of rangers that know how to play there class (wow imagine that<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). And, there are also quite many rangers that agree we did way too much damage pre-LU-21 (all of them actually). I think that pretty much counters any childish argument that you spew repeatedly on these boards. You have said what you need to, now go along and post somewhere else because obviously you have nothing more to say.</p><p>The boost we got was nice, but not the end all. For those that do not know,</p><p>1. One of our frontal melee skills was significantly reduced in damage and changed into a 4sec root2. Three bow CAs that had meager damage were upped in damage. One of those CAs now does around 1000 damage. The other 2 still hover around 300-5003. DR of bows was supposed to be raised but apparently it was only raised on selective bows. Most of Rangers use Grizzfoshizzle and that was untouched.</p><p>All of the above changes help a soloing Ranger. Great now we can not be afraid of a green^. A root does nothing for group play. And the increase in DR did not affect that many Rangers.</p><p>We are still consistently out-damaged by Brawlers and Rogues. No Ranger minds being out damaged by WArlocks, Wizards, Assassins because they are T1 classes. God knows all T1 classes need help because T2 (Conjurers and Rogues) are now the T1 class. Why does it offend you that we ask for help? Every class that is not legitamelty happy with their class should voice their opinion in a construction manner. Never once in this post was a cry for nerfage of another class mentioned.</p><p>Kaiser, I would be happy to hear from you again if you actually have something constructive to say. If not, don't bother especially if you are going to post the same drivel again about "learning how to play our class" or "wanting god mode" .</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Saihung23]

<DIV> <DIV>Peace Health and Happiness all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Saihung</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[The_Wind]

So you play an assassin and you're saying, "Now you can't just push buttons to get damage out of your ranger," right?  Um....maybe I am ignorant, but isn't that how SOE designed the game to be played?  By mashing CA's together to get damage out of them.  Especially for a dps class?  Lets see, my CA's....do damage, or I can just evac every 15 minutes JUST to stir up trouble in my group, wether or not we needed evac.  Basic rundown, sit back, hit some buttons, move up hit some more buttons, back up hit some more buttons, wait 15-30 seconds, hit some more buttons, move in hit some more buttons.  Seems like a lot of CA mashing to me, STILL to this day.  Now like I said, maybe I'm just ignorant. However, the only quirk I have about my damage being lower than some classes, especially tier two classes, is the same one I've had for the last 4 months.  Why, are we being forced to BUY poisons just to maintain our tier of damage?  Ok, fine, I can accept a wizard/warlock out damaging me, thats a given.  Apperently the fact that I can auto-attack, and wear chain makes up for that.  But in order to maintain our damage we are forced to rely on a consumable that few other classes have to.  You can give me the argument, "Well rogues and assassins use poisons as well for their damage."  Yes, but most assassins I know of don't use poisons in groups because it gives them too much hate.  And rogues can be seen outdpsing us at times.  Take away a rogues poison and they might not.  Take away a rangers poison and we won't out-dps alot of t2/t3 classes, period.  Is that fair?  True, using a bow we have a somewhat, "greater" chance to proc than some of these other classes.  But honestly, take away a rangers poison, and take away an assassins poison, and which do you think will do more damage? I will bear with the fact that we are meant to be able to do our damage in unique ways, but that the end is meant to justify the means.  All I want is fairness out of the system.  I want to do my job, like anyone else.  I just get tired of having to go broke trying to maintain my duties to my group, when others aren't forced to. <div></div>

[Rarlin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime <strong><u><font size="5">pre vanguard</font></u></strong> =p</div><hr></blockquote><p>I wonder...</p><p>Does anyone have a date on when this game is comming out so that I can celebrate the departure of annoying people who never shut up about Vanguard? </p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime pre vanguard =p</div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes because everyone knows that dueling is the baseline for class balance. /sarcasm_Off</p>

[Arr]

<span>He was referring to  getting rocked on the DPS (parser) charts.   Perhaps you should read the thread before you break your little /sarcasm button.</span><div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<div></div><p>At least you rangers got some attention, the right attention even if it wasn't up to your expectations.  The ranger in my guild would go on auto attack and do 800dps, at the time I had to use every trick in my arsenal to pull off 800dps.  It is a fact because he told me.  Now a ranger who is working for their DPS was able to do much much more than that. Rangers for the most part didn't have to work to stay in the upper tier of DPS and if they really wanted to blow the socks off the competition than they went all out.</p><p>Your problem with doing sub par DPS is because of your bow.  DPS translates damage per second, so when you have a 7sec attack thats not a lot of DPS.  What you guys need to do is look at actual damage done and see how it compares. The ranger in my guild was doing 800dps, but 50% more total dmg and when he tried he could easily double my damage. DPS is not an extremely accurate relation of damage.  I get almost 1800DPS if I just autoattack till the last 10-20% and go through my moves, with concealment I can do every stealth attack I have, thats a lot of damage in a short amount of time and it will really inflate the DPS.</p><p>If your overall damage is up with everyone else you shouldn't have anything to complain about. I imagine it will still be lower, but I am interested to find out how it compares.  Honestly I think it is the wrong time to be asking for improvements to your class when you just had a LU devoted almost entirely to you when it came to class changes.</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Arrow wrote:<span>He was referring to  getting rocked on the DPS (parser) charts.   Perhaps you should read the thread before you break your little /sarcasm button.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes I caught that when I read his 2nd barely legible post.</p><p>But after the 400th ranger whine post, they all seem to blend together.</p>

[Gungo]

<div></div><div></div><p>Actually i think it has to do with the fact rangers DPs relys heavily on Auto atk now which is good, but there are very few bows out currently with a comparable Dam rating to so most fabeld wpns. KoS does have soem fabeld bows now.</p><p>While the initial poster does have a point. My experiance is a bit different. Our guild ranger got an incredible bow in the Lab. Our guidl bruiser has 50 aa's and full fabled t7/relic gear. Our guild monk went down the str aa line and is fully fabled. Our guild ranger with that bow is vastly out damaging them now. The conjurors still seem to do well though =p. My point is basically is if you are using a crafted bow you are nto fully realising a rangers full potential. And yes Gear matters pet classes rely on master or adept 3 pets and scouts/brawlers rely on legendary/fabled wpns.</p><p>That Bow absolutely rocks though in KoS.</p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:39 AM</span></p>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>The_Wind wrote:So you play an assassin and you're saying, "Now you can't just push buttons to get damage out of your ranger," right?  Um....maybe I am ignorant, but isn't that how SOE designed the game to be played?  By mashing CA's together to get damage out of them.  Especially for a dps class?  Lets see, my CA's....do damage, or I can just evac every 15 minutes JUST to stir up trouble in my group, wether or not we needed evac.  Basic rundown, sit back, hit some buttons, move up hit some more buttons, back up hit some more buttons, wait 15-30 seconds, hit some more buttons, move in hit some more buttons.  Seems like a lot of CA mashing to me, STILL to this day.  Now like I said, maybe I'm just ignorant. However, the only quirk I have about my damage being lower than some classes, especially tier two classes, is the same one I've had for the last 4 months.  Why, are we being forced to BUY poisons just to maintain our tier of damage?  Ok, fine, I can accept a wizard/warlock out damaging me, thats a given.  Apperently the fact that I can auto-attack, and wear chain makes up for that.  But in order to maintain our damage we are forced to rely on a consumable that few other classes have to.  You can give me the argument, "Well rogues and assassins use poisons as well for their damage."  Yes, but most assassins I know of don't use poisons in groups because it gives them too much hate.  And rogues can be seen outdpsing us at times.  Take away a rogues poison and they might not.  Take away a rangers poison and we won't out-dps alot of t2/t3 classes, period.  Is that fair?  True, using a bow we have a somewhat, "greater" chance to proc than some of these other classes.  But honestly, take away a rangers poison, and take away an assassins poison, and which do you think will do more damage? I will bear with the fact that we are meant to be able to do our damage in unique ways, but that the end is meant to justify the means.  All I want is fairness out of the system.  I want to do my job, like anyone else.  I just get tired of having to go broke trying to maintain my duties to my group, when others aren't forced to. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Id like to add on this. Take away a Rangers and an Assassins poisons and:</p><p>A) Who would out DPS who</p><p>B) Who has more money at the end of the fight because they didnt have to pay 16g a stack of arrows to get everything out of their dps</p><p>***hint</p><p>The answer to both is assassins, but thats thoroughly beside the point.</p><p> </p><p>The point of the thread is our CA's need a boost. Wizards get ice comet at 50 that does 3500-5000 dmg. We get Snipers master 2 at 54 and it does 2700, costs an arrow and a proc of poison, and get can get parried. But instead of the resist boost that wizards get, having recast INCREDIBLY reduced if resisted, we have to wait 15 minutes before we can use it again because a MOB SAW AN INVISIBLE ARROW COMING FROM 35 METERS AWAY FROM AN INVISIBLE ENEMY AND DODGED IT. Yeah, thats not INSANE. But if a wizard casts a spell and its resisted in the same way players can resist spell, hey, 5 seconds later, cast it again, its ok, you dont have it perma rooted or anything. And triple fire....wow, a whopping 800 total damage from 3 arrows. Autoattack is better than that IN ONE SHOT. But no, let me waste 3 arrows, 1 poison proc, cause I forgot to poison my other 2 arrows (I know assassins face the same thing, that whole thing is stupid) and if the first one gets parried, which it does A TON, i got a whopping 200 dmg off a 3 minute recast spell. And the Sharp shot, 400 out of 2 arrows......come ON.</p><p>Oh and what about our offensive stance. Now that we have had out melee boosted, how about changing our offensive stance to instead of Ranged, to Offensive Attack. I mean, one ranged shot and the mob is on us. So our offensive stance is good for one shot out of the whole fight. Well isnt that nice <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The OP was right. The fixes were GREAT, TYTYTYTYTY. But they dont do enough. They appeased the ranger community and silenced them a little. But it wasnt enough.</p><p>Oh yeah, grouped with a wizzy a few lvls higher than me the other day, he had more mitigation than I and I am in cobalt and 3 fabled pieces. So for me, just me, that whole "well you get to wear chain" thing DONE, null and void. I guess....all these reasons are why my ranger that I had before LU13, well before, is no longer my main. And it saddens me</p><p>/rant off</p>

[Gungo]

<div><p>Actually i think it has to do with the fact rangers DPs relys heavily on Auto atk now which is good, but there are very few bows out currently with a comparable Dam rating to so most fabeld wpns. KoS does have soem fabeld bows now.</p><p>While the initial poster does have a point. My experiance is a bit different. Our guild ranger got an incredible bow in the Lab. Our guidl bruiser has 50 aa's and full fabled t7/relic gear. Our guild monk went down the str aa line and is fully fabled. Our guild ranger with that bow is vastly out damaging them now. The conjurors still seem to do well though =p. My point is basically is if you are using a crafted bow you are nto fully realising a rangers full potential. And yes Gear matters pet classes rely on master or adept 3 pets and scouts/brawlers rely on legendary/fabled wpns.</p><p>That Bow absolutely rocks though in KoS.</p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">04-04-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">10:39 AM</span></p></div>

[Cael]

<div></div><p>Gear does matter, but I shouldnt have to in a raiding guild, Fabled out, best gear in the game to beat out a regular jo blo Summoner or mage.</p><p>IMO the rarity of poisons procs shouldnt be factored into DPS anymore...it just isnt reliable enough. So barring that, CA's should be boosted. Parries should go down in occurrance EXPONENTIALLY to make it to where without poisons, we are on par with everyone else that is T1. BUT if we choose to use poisons, which we pay a good deal for, that is when we will spike above mages, since they have NO consumables at all for their DPS.</p><p>I dont really see how thats unfeasable.</p>

[klepp]

<div>exactly saihung...</div><div>as for button  mashing.. its what it feels like trying to get every ounce of dps out thats for sure! as for knowing my class.. ive been a ranger through 4 different mmo's and my eq2 ranger was created on launch day, was the first on the server, the first to 50, and the first to 60 on the server.  Not bragging, just not sure any other way to gauge "knowing one's class" </div><div>For god's sakes i have more masters than any ranger on the server and somehow... i cant seem to touch our monk or our conjuror... the monk i get close, but the conjuror its rare when he goes afk or something that i can outdps em =p</div>

[klepp]

<div></div>Kbern? you just [Removed for Content] cause your t2 class is eventually gonna be t2 again?  C'mon now.. no one wants anything handed to them, i want my ranger to do the job he was inteneded to do.. thats damage.  And if im being out dps'd by another ranger, something is lacking.. but if im being out dps'd by tanks.. somethings wrong.  FFS i have 40 someodd AP's including max crits and reduction in cast timers by 35%... yet still.. doesnt cut it.  Dont want to be pre LU20 damage.. that was insane.. just want to be t1 like we're supposed to be.

[KBern]

<div></div><p>Nope been playing my necro since 12-04 and will keep working on him.</p><p>I'll give you credit though, you did not ask for anyone to be nerfed while complaining about your class.</p><p>At least people are realizing that summoners are not the only class not fitting into their area of the fabled DPS tree, but we are much closer to where we should be than some other classes that are out there flying under the radar.</p>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>Nope been playing my necro since 12-04 and will keep working on him.</p><p>I'll give you credit though, you did not ask for anyone to be nerfed while complaining about your class.</p><p>At least people are realizing that summoners are not the only class not fitting into their area of the fabled DPS tree, but we are much closer to where we should be than some other classes that are out there flying under the radar.</p><hr></blockquote><p>This isnt that discussion. Thats been had elsewhere. Plz dont bring it here</p><p> </p><p>/End derailment</p>

[KBern]

<blockquote><hr>Caelum wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>Nope been playing my necro since 12-04 and will keep working on him.</p><p>I'll give you credit though, you did not ask for anyone to be nerfed while complaining about your class.</p><p>At least people are realizing that summoners are not the only class not fitting into their area of the fabled DPS tree, but we are much closer to where we should be than some other classes that are out there flying under the radar.</p><hr></blockquote><p>This isnt that discussion. Thats been had elsewhere. Plz dont bring it here</p><p> </p><p>/End derailment</p><hr></blockquote><p>Um...the OP's main point was how he a T1 DPS class compares DPS to another class and this is not the discussion here?</p><p>Sure sport, then what is?</p>

[The_Wind]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>Nope been playing my necro since 12-04 and will keep working on him.</p><p>I'll give you credit though, you did not ask for anyone to be nerfed while complaining about your class.</p><p>At least people are realizing that summoners are not the only class not fitting into their area of the fabled DPS tree, but we are much closer to where we should be than some other classes that are out there flying under the radar.</p><hr></blockquote>Comments like that and people might actually start thinkin your a nice guy. =P  Truth be told, their DPS tier tree was probably the worst thing they could've released info wise.  I still to this day find it ironic that they gave berserkers with their first initial AA, the ability to heal 25% of their health, while giving rangers bounty.  I mean honestly, which one plunders more, and which one is more in tune with nature.  Granted, berserkers were a very "spiritual" being that got worked into a frenzy before battle, but they were proned to loot/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/pillage on their own which made them quite "unstable" in normal society.  Whereas a ranger was one who survived the wilds, usually alone, learning some minor healing abilities/herbal remedies, and ability to hunt to maintain food supply. Just some of the idea's that SOE puts out, don't follow practical thinking regime, and it tends to irk a great deal of the playerbase.  I mean honestly, I can see theoritcally a need for bounty being a ranger who uses consumables to help compensate for the loss of money put out to gain such.  The problem arises when they make it so little monetary gain, then to top it off, make it kill shot ONLY requiring you to get the last shot in for it to be useful.  Put that into a group envioronment, having a 7 second delay bow doing most of our work, its more likely that someone who gets 3 shots to our 1 would happen to get a kill shot, while we are waiting for our combat to recycle.  You want the truth?  Most rangers would rather not HAVE to shell out for consumables.  Arrows, poisons, both are required, at least to some degree, at a decent scale for us to even approach our set duty.  I don't mind having conjurors do the same damage as me when they're going all out on dps instead of utility.  What I do mind, is summoners doing the same damage as me, but not having to pay 2-3p+ to do it.  To me, it just does not seem like a fair tradeoff.</span></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>I am not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all the time, I just play one on the forums.</p>

[Ildarus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caelum wrote:<div></div><p>Gear does matter, but I shouldnt have to in a raiding guild, Fabled out, best gear in the game to beat out a regular jo blo Summoner or mage.</p><p>IMO the rarity of poisons procs shouldnt be factored into DPS anymore...it just isnt reliable enough. So barring that, CA's should be boosted. Parries should go down in occurrance EXPONENTIALLY to make it to where without poisons, we are on par with everyone else that is T1. BUT if we choose to use poisons, which we pay a good deal for, that is when we will spike above mages, since they have NO consumables at all for their DPS.</p><p>I dont really see how thats unfeasable.</p><hr></blockquote><p>My poison procs at least once every fight, so yes it is very importent to my DPS. In longer fight I will sometimes see it proc twice. I notice a major difference in the take down time on mobs when my poison has run out. So I would have to disagree with the fact that poisons should be taken out of the DPS equation for Rangers. If they get to then mine should be taken out of the equation to and my CA or ATK damage should be increased.</p><p>Bottom line, Sony must want that figured into DPS because when you start a new char on the island, they give you poison.</p>

[Gungo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Caelum wrote:<div></div><p>Gear does matter, but I shouldnt have to in a raiding guild, Fabled out, best gear in the game to beat out a regular jo blo Summoner or mage.</p><p>IMO the rarity of poisons procs shouldnt be factored into DPS anymore...it just isnt reliable enough. So barring that, CA's should be boosted. Parries should go down in occurrance EXPONENTIALLY to make it to where without poisons, we are on par with everyone else that is T1. BUT if we choose to use poisons, which we pay a good deal for, that is when we will spike above mages, since they have NO consumables at all for their DPS.</p><p>I dont really see how thats unfeasable.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree but i think its mroe of an issue of lack of Bows with comparable dam ratings then it is inadequate comabt art damage. Now lets say the aveage summoner or mage has at least an T7 adept 3 pet. Are you using a Legendary T7 bow? If not its more of an issue of poor itemization then poor class skills.</p><p>EDIT: BTW i am using the conjuror pet as an example only i still don't think a ranger w a legendary T7 bow would outdamage them consistently.</p><p>EDIT 2: I am also fairly certain our guild ranger just talks to sits and stares at his bow now. Its really is that amazing =p</p><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div></div><p><font size="4">At least you rangers got some attention, the right attention even if it wasn't up to your expectations</font>.  The ranger in my guild would go on auto attack and do 800dps, at the time I had to use every trick in my arsenal to pull off 800dps.  It is a fact because he told me.  Now a ranger who is working for their DPS was able to do much much more than that. Rangers for the most part didn't have to work to stay in the upper tier of DPS and if they really wanted to blow the socks off the competition than they went all out.</p><p><font size="4">Your problem with doing sub par DPS is because of your bow</font>.  DPS translates damage per second, so when you have a 7sec attack thats not a lot of DPS.  What you guys need to do is look at actual damage done and see how it compares. The ranger in my guild was doing 800dps, but 50% more total dmg and when he tried he could easily double my damage. DPS is not an extremely accurate relation of damage.  I get almost 1800DPS if I just autoattack till the last 10-20% and go through my moves, with concealment I can do every stealth attack I have, thats a lot of damage in a short amount of time and it will really inflate the DPS.</p><p>If your overall damage is up with everyone else you shouldn't have anything to complain about. I imagine it will still be lower, but I am interested to find out how it compares.  Honestly I think it is the wrong time to be asking for improvements to your class when you just had a LU devoted almost entirely to you when it came to class changes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>On the first part I agree, rangers got some things changed and for the better.  It shouldnt end there though..</p><p>On the second part, I am level 51 (maybe 52...did I level? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cant remember) using an imbued Ironwood Longbow....are you telling me I have to get a Fabled Bow to do T1 damage?</p><p>lol, cripes I hope not...</p><p>Saihung</p><p> </p>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<p>Um...the OP's main point was how he a T1 DPS class compares DPS to another class and this is not the discussion here?</p><p>Sure sport, then what is?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Umm, the point was love for rangers, not how you can get an argument started on how necros should be nerfed into the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ground. I mean, when magus calls his own class out as way too powerful, something is amiss.</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20713#M20713" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20713#M20713</a></p><p>Again, this shouldnt be about derailment about nerfage. And youre trying to bate me into it....despite what I want to say...I wont, as there are a few constructive ideas in this thread and flaming and bating always deludes the thread to see no point in it at all.</p><p>OK, so you see poisons proc a lot, ok. Thats cool. Mine doesnt, but whatever its 5 and Im going home lol</p>

[klepp]

<div>im using a t7 fabled bow, which means nothing on shorter fights.. and on the longer fights it still doesnt help any/enough to keep up w/ a summoner no way lol..  And i get beaten by the brawler classes more often than not.  Our berserker beats me, our rogues and bards are about a 50/50 and as for pure casters its a crap shoot/situational.    They're classes are all screwed atm, what i do konw is for sure rangers are one of them, how they fix it is up to them.  Either boost ALOT of classes past certain others which may be unbalancing... or bust out that daarn bat as harsh as that is</div>

[Guy De Alsace]

My 66 Ranger's Bow CA's do less damage than his autoattack a lot of the time. When I use Focus Fire my autoattack rocks. Not much point mashing useless CA's unless I've got a quiver full of tin arrows :. I'm generally using Improved Surveil, Stealthy Fire, Debilitating Arrow, Focus Fire then autoattacking until Stealthy Fire comes back up again. All the other CA's are gathering dust to be honest. I occasionally use Amazing Shot to pull an enemy out of line of sight. My AP's make meleeing slightly easier if I need to, which opens up a couple more limited options for group fights. I like to hop in to melee range and use Cheap Shot to interrupt enemy spellcasters and/or land some Dire Blades and what few debuffs we have.I also tend to pick off any solo adds that wander in and aggro the spellthrowers since I know I can handle them in melee. There's more to Rangers than the bow...I can live with the class as it is, there are other more broken classes out there that need love next LU I think.<div></div>

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Yes, but most assassins I know of don't use poisons in groups because it gives them too much hate.</font><hr><p>That's news to me, I must have missed the memo...  Funny how I always have 2-3 poisons running reguardless of if I am solo, grouped or in a raid...    Damage and debuff is always up...  Stun and Slow is situational...   Yes poisons do increase your hate, but there are things you can do to control that and that does not include not using poisons....</p><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">And yes Gear matters pet classes rely on master or adept 3 pets and scouts/brawlers rely on legendary/fabled wpns.</font><hr><p>All classes rely on Adept 3 / Master spells, it's the reason every one of my CAs are either AD3 or Master....  But Fabled/Legendary Vs Treasured weapons do not directly effect DPS of non-melee classes... </p><p>If a Caster class has Max Int and all AD3/Masters they are doing thier max damage</p><p>If a Scout Class has Max Str & Int (Int increases Bard spell damage and Poison damage) and All AD3/Masters and Rare Poisons (non-Bards), and highest tier Arrows available and Fabled weapons, then they are doing thier max damage...</p><p>See the difference there?  It's not just AD3/Master Pet Vs Legendary/Fabled weapons....  And thoes pet classes you were refering to does not have to spend plat each day to do thier DPS...</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Nilla - 70 Alchemist</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caelum wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<p>Um...the OP's main point was how he a T1 DPS class compares DPS to another class and this is not the discussion here?</p><p>Sure sport, then what is?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Umm, the point was love for rangers, not how you can get an argument started on how necros should be nerfed into the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ground. I mean, when magus calls his own class out as way too powerful, something is amiss.</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20713#M20713" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20713#M20713</a></p><p>Again, this shouldnt be about derailment about nerfage. And youre trying to bate me into it....despite what I want to say...I wont, as there are a few constructive ideas in this thread and flaming and bating always deludes the thread to see no point in it at all.</p><p>OK, so you see poisons proc a lot, ok. Thats cool. Mine doesnt, but whatever its 5 and Im going home lol</p><hr></blockquote><p>Take your necro angst and go somewhere else.</p><p>It was a direct response to the Op asking me a question.</p><p>Yes I made a trollish comment at first, but my second was answering his reply to mine.</p><p>I wasnt even speaking to you so no baiting was invloved no matter your mind is making up.</p>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Aienaa wrote:</p><p>All classes rely on Adept 3 / Master spells, it's the reason every one of my CAs are either AD3 or Master....�  But Fabled/Legendary Vs Treasured weapons do not directly effect DPS of non-melee classes...� </p><p>If a� Caster class has Max Int and all AD3/Masters they are doing thier max damage</p><p>If a Scout Class has Max Str &� Int (Int increases Bard spell damage and Poison damage) and All AD3/Masters and Rare Poisons (non-Bards), and highest tier Arrows available� and Fabled weapons, then they are doing thier max damage...</p><p>See the difference there?�  It's not just AD3/Master Pet Vs Legendary/Fabled weapons....�  And thoes pet classes you were refering to does not have to spend plat each day to do thier DPS...</p><hr></blockquote><p>YES YES YES, exactly. And mages only have one stat to max to max their dps, so they reach that cap easily. SO many mages have stated this on the boards. But scouts...and more than just us, but scouts in this example.....have to max STR for dmg, INT for procs/spells, AGI� for power. So its a lot harder for us to reach the cap cause we dont really have a "main" stat. Granted they cant live off Autoattack...so maybe thats where that balance went lol.</p><p>And as an above poster stated when autoattack is doing more dmg than CA's IMO thats kind of messed up. The GOOD thing about CA's is it doesnt matter� the tier of arrows so if you went CA's all the time, you would spend less on arrows, which would be good, but your DPS would go SOOO down cause our CA's save for a few like snipers and miracle SUCK INCREDIBLY, if they even land due to the rediculous high number of parries.</p><p>Again to reiterate, our CA's need a boost of a sizable %%%. I mean, if people complained about rangers going afk with stream on during the overpower hay day....we can do the same thing now except on Autoattack and do more damage than if we hit all our ranged CA's and still not use an ounce of power.</p>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JWinnard wrote:<div></div>LOL, rangers dont need anymore loving ...they have been give far too much already.<hr></blockquote><p>I play a Paladin (stop laughing) and I agree with this guy.</p><p>(I said stop laughing, or I'll pull out my sword and heal myself tired then fall over dead)</p>

[The_Wind]

You seriously think so?  So you think its ok that two classes, both of which are meant to be a t1 dps, are required to spend so much money on items that no other classes have to, just to maintain a level of dps equal to those other classes?  Its not a matter of damage to me.  Using the abilities I have, I can solo, solo content, effectively enough.When you play a ranger, then you can speak for one.  But agreeing that rangers are where they are meant to be is just the most ludicrous statement made.  I do not find the class balances fair.  Not in the aspect of damage vs. utility, but in the aspect of what it takes for me to do my job, compared to what it takes for other classes to do theirs.  In that aspect, rangers need to be addressed. I am seriously tired of the damage teir arguments.  Do our skills lack?  Yes some.  While other classes do as well.  There are some classes who need to have their powers addressed to put them back in line as well.  Changes are made, constantly, in an ever balancing envioronment.  If SOE truely has a structure they plan to abide by, then you can expect a great deal more of changes people are not going to like.  In that aspect we are all the same.  No one likes to lose things they feel they have earned or gained.  Some accept it and carry on, some hold grudges.  Do I think Paladins are where they need to be?  Honestly, I don't know.  I don't play one.  Just as I don't expect a person who does, to understand what it is about a ranger that needs to be fixed.  There is too much hate in these forums from people who think they need to be better than everyone else.  I don't want to be better, but I would at least like to be equal.  Right now, we are not.I played a ranger before our golden age, not even realizing we were a broken class.  I played a ranger during the golden age, powerful, arrogant, and proud.  I play a ranger now that the golden age is ended, humbled in all its glory.  A great many people who come here, could do with a good lesson in humility.  Rangers, and others alike.<div></div>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>JWinnard wrote:<div></div>LOL, rangers dont need anymore loving ...they have been give far too much already.<hr></blockquote><p>I play a Paladin (stop laughing) and I agree with this guy.</p><p>(I said stop laughing, or I'll pull out my sword and heal myself tired then fall over dead)</p><hr></blockquote><p>That is the biggest joke....ok, they gave rangers attention.  Did it fix the problem?  No.  So should we be ignored just because you as a paladin feel ignored?No. That is called middle child syndrome.</p><p>Summoners are overpowered.  If you are a summoner and cant deal with admitting that, then you will take the rebalancing of your class harshly.  I suggest that if you accept it, it wont feel as bad...though I will tell you from experience...dropping down from the dps youre doing will hurt. The class just wont feel the same..here is the link to lockeye's post.  Saying that rangers need to have fabled gear to do their intended DPS just doesnt jive with what BG said in his post about DPS tiers either...it is based on handcrafted gear. This is Lockeye's here :<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10781#M10781" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=10781#M10781</a></p><p>Now like I said in an earlier reply, I think the devs only need to give us a few tweaks to up our DPS.  There are many pressing issues in EQ2 right now, I would rather see them take care of some of the bigger issues....like the brokers for instance.  I think it is still borked somewhat (subject for another post).  However, I think the DPS tier needs to be fixed and is a growing problem.</p><p>Saihung</p>

[Gungo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div></div><p></p><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">And yes Gear matters pet classes rely on master or adept 3 pets and scouts/brawlers rely on legendary/fabled wpns.</font><hr><p>All classes rely on Adept 3 / Master spells, it's the reason every one of my CAs are either AD3 or Master....  But Fabled/Legendary Vs Treasured weapons do not directly effect DPS of non-melee classes... </p><p>If a Caster class has Max Int and all AD3/Masters they are doing thier max damage</p><p>If a Scout Class has Max Str & Int (Int increases Bard spell damage and Poison damage) and All AD3/Masters and Rare Poisons (non-Bards), and highest tier Arrows available and Fabled weapons, then they are doing thier max damage...</p><p>See the difference there?  It's not just AD3/Master Pet Vs Legendary/Fabled weapons....  And thoes pet classes you were refering to does not have to spend plat each day to do thier DPS...</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 70 Assassin  /  Nilla - 70 Alchemist</p><hr></blockquote><p>No what i was saying is the recent adjustment to rangers made thier Bow autoatk a much higher percentage of thier DPS. And that comparing an imbued crafted bow to other classes w imbued crafted wpns rangers do T1 dps, When a ranger gets a fabled bow they are able to do t1 dps vs a class w fabled wpns. Summoners is a different story. And everyone knows there is an adjustment coming. My point is there is a lack of bows in T7. The grizzlefang bow is generally the only one obtainable for the non raider and even that bow has an entire thread stating how its dam rating does not compare to the other rewards in that quest line. If you are able to obtain a T7 fabled bow a ranger will have no problem in raids outdpsing other classes not including summoners.</p><p>EDIT: totally seperate issue but relevant ranger salways liek to point out how they have to pay for arrows in order to do top tier DPS. I kind of think of it as a pay off for safer DPS. You pay to stand outside aoe range, Many classes coudl sit back and use thrown wpn or arrows, but then we wouldnt do as much dps would we. Most classes have to dodge aoe's more so then rangers. Using ranged wpns is a safer form and hence costs a small fee. A ranger could always choose to melee and do less dps, but cost less and be in harms way more. Its a trade off imho, Just my opionion and i am sure many people here have their own idea of if this is balanced or not.</p>

[Star]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div><blockquote> A ranger could always choose to melee and do less dps, but cost less and be in harms way more. Its a trade off imho, Just my opionion and i am sure many people here have their own idea of if this is balanced or not.</blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>While the point you made (which I did cut) are true this is not nessesarily a fair trade of. If we don't spend money on arrows (good arrows now because AA is a significant part of our DPS) we get less dps AND get to be in harms way more. If it were the case that we could not buy arrows and do the same DPS but be in harms way more (by same I mean the same as say and assassin who also is jousting AEs) then I think it would be a fair trade off, but we have to buy arrows to do our job (DPS) and that has the added bonus of putting us outside a fair number (but not all) AEs.</p><p>However, in light of the fact that classes like assassins have to buy arrows also for the few (but important) ranged CAs they have I can't say this is a huge sticking point for me anymore. Whatever... despite having to pay for arrows I still manage to make a profit from killing things. *shrug* Rangers do need a bit more love though, but I have a feeling that the great eye of the devs has moved on to more pressing issues and while they may not be done with rangers yet the majority of their time and attention will be spent on other classes.</p>

[Infinity0]

Just curious SOE any word on a rangr fix?<div></div>

[klepp]

the harsh reality is they probably have a very small team to work on fixes due to save money and are spread super thin in regards to fixing everything they F'd up.  They gave us a little dribble and we'll probably be stuck as we are for another 6 months till the next expansion rolls out and if we're lucky they'll scale up our t8 spells a bit or something.  Do they need to fix our dps and other things YES   are they going to in the near future.. id like to think so, but doubtul.   <BR><BR>Fortunately for me, the weather is getting warm and by the time it cools down again the real eq2 will be out =p

[MagicWand]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> klepp wrote:<BR> <DIV>so... thats a wrap eh guys? you feel you've fixed rangers enough?  Cause personally im sick of being rocked by the guild MONK when i have more masters/adept3's and even when i use sniper!  Even when i refuse to blink!     we wont get started on the other examples but... atleast give me the heads up if you guys are through with rnagers so i can enjoy a bit of freetime pre vanguard =p</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh, did you ever notice, monks are tanks and you are not, rather than DPS calculating, may be you should pick defense calculating. And yes, as previous poster say, you will whine x100 of that if you stay in that mindset at Vanguard.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That Tier DPS tree is all [Removed for Content] atm, because summoners can routinely out DPS anyone in high end raids.  Conjurers >Necros > All other "Tier 1 DPS", what a joke.

[nomatterwhat]

<DIV>Rangers need to stop whining period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play an assassin, its a lot more complicated then a ranger.  And yes Rangers use a crap load of ARROWS and poisons too.  Oh wait, dont rangers get to summon arrows, and don't they get to summon higher tier arrows as they level????  Rangers need to sit down and stop bellyaching.  My assassin goes thru stacks of arrows each night, we get some nice ranged CA's too.  Only difference is we can't summon, and I'm still buying Feyiron into my 50's.  I wouldn't even know what fulginate does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers go summon yourself some fulginate, quick whining about paying for your DPS and roll an assassin if you think you got the short end of the T1 stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you,</DIV> <DIV>that is all.</DIV>

[roblinb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rangers need to stop whining period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play an assassin, its a lot more complicated then a ranger.  And yes Rangers use a crap load of ARROWS and poisons too.  Oh wait, dont rangers get to summon arrows, and don't they get to summon higher tier arrows as they level????  Rangers need to sit down and stop bellyaching.  My assassin goes thru stacks of arrows each night, we get some nice ranged CA's too.  Only difference is we can't summon, and I'm still buying Feyiron into my 50's.  I wouldn't even know what fulginate does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers go summon yourself some fulginate, quick whining about paying for your DPS and roll an assassin if you think you got the short end of the T1 stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you,</DIV> <DIV>that is all.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What are you talking about?  Adept 1 summon arrows will get you a whole 35 stock arrows (for your tier) which is enough for a few fights.  I can't remember the recast timer, but it's to long for us to keep using it to keep our supply stocked.  You may not be able to summon arrows but 1) you are not a ranged class and 2) you do more damage than us.</P> <P>I'm not gonna cry about my class like a lot of the people on these boards do, but if you're going to say something at least have your facts straight, ok?</P><p>Message Edited by roblinb on <span class=date_text>04-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[StealthM0]

<DIV>Just like to add to the above. There is no tier 6 summoned arrow spell. None. We get one spell at 58 that rips an indium arrow out, a single indium arrow. Now I dont know about everyone else here but I've been playing a ranger since may of last year, and the ranger class has gotten hosed many times, and just when devs show us some love, the nerf bat comes around again. I am sick of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are still MAJOR issues with the ranger class that need to be addressed. Just stroll by the ranger forums and have a read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't whining, screaming, or even bickering. We are standing tall and proclaiming in a loud voice. We aren't done yet devs. Still more work to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterdays update to live servers especially hit our dps even more. The miti vs. poison debuff line most rangers use is now nerfed. Bye bye even more dps from an already gimped class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If things don't change you might as well REMOVE the ranger class entirely, because the present job you are doing of fixing it, is killing the class even more.</DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just like to add to the above. There is no tier 6 summoned arrow spell. None. We get one spell at 58 that rips an indium arrow out, a single indium arrow. Now I dont know about everyone else here but I've been playing a ranger since may of last year, and the ranger class has gotten hosed many times, and just when devs show us some love, the nerf bat comes around again. I am sick of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are still MAJOR issues with the ranger class that need to be addressed. Just stroll by the ranger forums and have a read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't whining, screaming, or even bickering. We are standing tall and proclaiming in a loud voice. We aren't done yet devs. Still more work to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterdays update to live servers especially hit our dps even more. The miti vs. poison debuff line most rangers use is now nerfed. Bye bye even more dps from an already gimped class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>If things don't change you might as well REMOVE the ranger class entirely, because the present job you are doing of fixing it, is killing the class even more.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is "remove class x" the new "dumbing down"?

[Town Drunk]

<DIV><STRONG>Bentgate,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Great Post and I was with you the full 200% until you mentioned my class Rogue - Brigand being specific, I have been trying to be very patient and supportive of my scout ranger buddys, but honestly, after dueling several lower level rangers with my Brigand (Standard Gear and Standard CAs) with me being a level or 2 above the ranger, Ive been nailed 75% of the time.  Granted I might just be a very aweful Brigand in the fact that I couldnt seem to get unstunned, rooted, long enough to actually be effective while the rangers would drop me to the ground in a matter of a few seconds, not 30 seconds, like 10 seconds.  So in conclusion, they are either using all very nice gear and adept 3/masters which Im hoping isnt the case because I cant seem to find and when I can find spells, adept 1s for Brigands, cant afford to purchase them, which self centered perhaps in saying so and I understand is my own problem and perhaps ineffecient to play my class. Formally tells me that perhaps, just perhaps that as far as Rangers Versus Brigands are concerned you are where you need to be.  Now as far as Rangers Versus Brawlers and Swashbucklers, Conjurers and the likes, perhaps you are not yet to snuff, which means that perhaps Brigands are not up to snuff either.  I realize that Rangers are Tier 1 and Brigands are Tier 2 on the DPS chain.  So hopefully, they can develop our classes appropriately so that we can all continue to have some fun.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Again Great stuff Bentgate, and please take this post for what it is, just an informing you of One Brigand and my ventures with Rangers, I dont speak for other Brigands, just me.... But it would be hard for me to believe that I am that bad at playing my Brigand <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Rufio - Pirate for Life</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Lucan D'lere</STRONG></DIV>

[Carna]

<P>I felt very supportive of my fellow Scouts the Rangers until they decided it was better to get negative and started to flail around at those around them. I'm simply not interested in seeing that sort of thing pandered to. I think many Rangers have no terms of reference as to how gameplay is with other classes. My Ranger alt is only level 41, but he can solo literally non-stop (as in genuinely no breaks) on yellow con mobs rapidly and efficiently... my Brigands was never able to grind in that way at those levels.</P> <P>I think from the height they were at it was a bery big fall and perhaps time to adjust is needed.... there are high level raiding Rangers reporting in the Ranger forum that their dps is ok, so I don't understand why one bunch is "broke" and the other is ok.... Assassins went through a similar period until they figured out a section just plain sucked.</P>

[Ranja]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Town Drunk wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Bentgate,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Great Post and I was with you the full 200% until you mentioned my class Rogue - Brigand being specific, I have been trying to be very patient and supportive of my scout ranger buddys, but honestly, after dueling several lower level rangers with my Brigand (Standard Gear and Standard CAs) with me being a level or 2 above the ranger, Ive been nailed 75% of the time.  Granted I might just be a very aweful Brigand in the fact that I couldnt seem to get unstunned, rooted, long enough to actually be effective while the rangers would drop me to the ground in a matter of a few seconds, not 30 seconds, like 10 seconds.  So in conclusion, they are either using all very nice gear and adept 3/masters which Im hoping isnt the case because I cant seem to find and when I can find spells, adept 1s for Brigands, cant afford to purchase them, which self centered perhaps in saying so and I understand is my own problem and perhaps ineffecient to play my class. Formally tells me that perhaps, just perhaps that as far as Rangers Versus Brigands are concerned you are where you need to be.  Now as far as Rangers Versus Brawlers and Swashbucklers, Conjurers and the likes, perhaps you are not yet to snuff, which means that perhaps Brigands are not up to snuff either.  I realize that Rangers are Tier 1 and Brigands are Tier 2 on the DPS chain.  So hopefully, they can develop our classes appropriately so that we can all continue to have some fun.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Again Great stuff Bentgate, and please take this post for what it is, just an informing you of One Brigand and my ventures with Rangers, I dont speak for other Brigands, just me.... But it would be hard for me to believe that I am that bad at playing my Brigand <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Rufio - Pirate for Life</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Lucan D'lere</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I had to go back and read what I said. Thanks for the support. I must admit I was more referring to Swashie than Brigands - I guess I should have been more specific<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, I must also say that comparing duel results is not a good way to compare DPS tiers. Shadowknights are great duelists because of harm touch, life tap, and platemail but their DPS is not very good. Similarly, Furies and Wardens are good at duels as well because of their healage and nice utility.  Rangers are great duelists because we can use stun poisons (You can too btw<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) And perhaps that is why you are being perm-rooted and stunned b/c they are running stun poisons.  We are also great duelists because we can attack from a distance while moving around (kiting). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only class i have lost a duel too is a Berzerker (I have not dueled every class) and I usually parse ahead of him in DPS. So, while I agree, Brigands may not be where Swashies are in DPS, it is not a fair comparison to say that since a Ranger beats you in duels all the time , they must be doing appropriate damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the support<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>I felt very supportive of my fellow Scouts the Rangers until they decided it was better to get negative and started to flail around at those around them. I'm simply not interested in seeing that sort of thing pandered to. I think many Rangers have no terms of reference as to how gameplay is with other classes. My Ranger alt is only level 41, but he can solo literally non-stop (as in genuinely no breaks) on yellow con mobs rapidly and efficiently... my Brigands was never able to grind in that way at those levels.</P> <P>I think from the height they were at it was a bery big fall and perhaps time to adjust is needed.... there are high level raiding Rangers reporting in the Ranger forum that their dps is ok, so I don't understand why one bunch is "broke" and the other is ok.... Assassins went through a similar period until they figured out a section just plain sucked.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually you will find most Rangers aren't being negative and "flail around" until we start getting attacked by other classes from all sides like we have been. Ya we were once quite overpowered and need to be toned down. We admit that and accept it. But now that they over did it and we needed fixing, every class out there is complaing that we are were we need to be and we just want to be gods again. If you think we wont fight back those comments their fooling yourselves.</P> <P>Also NO our DPS is not where is should be, this coming from a "high level raiding Ranger"</P> <P>Also to the Brigand, I couldn't care less about PVP so I wont comment on that front, but for PVE I suggest you don't draw too much attention to yourself. With your APs Brigands do insane amount of DPS (even higher than conjurors) and the only reason it hasn't really been mentioned before is not many people play Brigands so they often get overlooked.</P>

[nomatterwhat]

<DIV>"<STRONG><FONT size=4>every class out there is complaing that we are were we need to be and we just want to be gods again</FONT></STRONG>. If you think we wont fight back those comments their fooling yourselves."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Maybe if everyone is saying it, there must be a hint of truth in it.  It's getting ridiculous.  Ranger DPS is by far one of the highest in the game, a lot more then my assassin.  Assassin relies heavily on stealth, stealth breaks with dots, most raids have dots.  Ranger can just sit pretty out of aoe range casting their summoned T6 arrows and destroying the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah rangers do want to be Gods...  but it's not going to happen.  I wish it will, I wish sony would make you the EQ2 Alpha/Jedi class cause that's the only thing that's gonna stop you guys whining!</DIV>

[Saihung23]

<STRIKE></STRIKE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV>"<STRONG><FONT size=4>every class out there is complaing that we are were we need to be and we just want to be gods again</FONT></STRONG>. If you think we wont fight back those comments their fooling yourselves."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Maybe if everyone is saying it, there must be a hint of truth in it.  It's getting ridiculous.  Ranger DPS is by far one of the highest in the game, a lot more then my assassin.  Assassin relies heavily on stealth, stealth breaks with dots, most raids have dots.  Ranger can just sit pretty out of aoe range casting their summoned T6 arrows and destroying the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah rangers do want to be Gods...  but it's not going to happen.  I wish it will, I wish sony would make you the EQ2 Alpha/Jedi class cause that's the only thing that's gonna stop you guys whining!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok...you've played the game a year...and you are just coming into the forums now.  So let me ask you what makes you an expert on how rangers post and what they want?</P> <P>Go read some more in the forums, dont come in and make sweeping generalizations "rangers do want to be gods".  Rangers dont and it is obvious to anyone who has been in the forums for any amount of time that most of the rangers asking for these changes are ones who before LU20 agreed that rangers were overpowered.  After LU20 they lobbied to fix us since the fix to the proc bug affected us more than intended.  LU21 included an attempted fix that made it so a good portion of our DPS is reliant on autoattack which means that rangers are reliant upon Tier appropriate arrows even more than before. </P> <P>Summoning arrows doesnt produce the arrows appropriate to our level...they are a tier below our level. So a ranger who is wanting to do damage on the same scale as other DPS classes is going to have to spend money for those arrows.  All scout classes feel the effects of arrow costs, but no other scout class is going to burn through arrows like a ranger.  </P> <P>For some reason, I decided to outline my position for changes needed to rangers.  I dont know why I would to someone who comes in to this thread insulting every poster who is able to post without the insults and generalizations.  You call us whiny I call you insulting...you say we want to be gods I say you must think you are one already if you think you can read minds and know our intentions as a whole.</P> <P>Read the forums some more...and ask yourself why other scout classes have people supporting us in asking for arrow consumption and vendor costs to be looked at...or make it easier for woodworkers to make arrows...if they could make me 3k arrows in an hour or so...I would gladly pay for them...I dont think I should be paying over a platinum for something we need to function as a class.</P> <P>I hope you understand I am trying to be respectful to your opinion while at the same time show you why what you posted is insulting.</P> <P>Saihung</P><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 PM</span>

[nomatterwhat]

<P>you're dreaming if you think Rangers take the burden of arrow costs alone.  You're right about scouts feeling the cost of arrows (tanks too etc)...  but an assassin is an evil ranger in a way, so we get some nifty range dmg.  I go through about 4-5 arrows per pull solo'n.  If a ranger burns more arrows then that, it's not by much.  That's my biggest complaint about rangers, they try to corner the arrow sympathy card, when they can SUMMON arrows?  Yeah its a tier below?  boo-hoo... I still have to buy feyiron!</P> <P>You may think I played the game for a year then joined the forums...  understand everyone are on different stages of their life, for all you know I came full circle and been here a few years longer then you have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I respect your post, just not the first sentence.</P>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>you're dreaming if you think Rangers take the burden of arrow costs alone.  You're right about scouts feeling the cost of arrows (tanks too etc)...  but an assassin is an evil ranger in a way, so we get some nifty range dmg.  I go through about 4-5 arrows per pull solo'n.  If a ranger burns more arrows then that, it's not by much.  That's my biggest complaint about rangers, they try to corner the arrow sympathy card, when they can SUMMON arrows?  Yeah its a tier below?  boo-hoo... I still have to buy feyiron!</P> <P>You may think I played the game for a year then joined the forums...  understand everyone are on different stages of their life, for all you know I came full circle and been here a few years longer then you have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I respect your post, just not the first sentence.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First off read the post about arrows in the combat forums. Most Rangers there agree that Assassins should also get a summon arrow skill and most Assassins there agree Rangers are hit much harder than they are. Soloing, most Rangers use 4-5 arrows just on incoming alone. Then we have to resort to mediocre mellee skills to finish it off (not so much now with the new root but that only allows for 1 ranged shot). The real problem with arrows doesnt show itself till your in groups and raids.</P> <P>Any Ranger who just sits out and does ranged damage the whole fight will not have very good dps since there are long recasts on our ranged shots that we will just be sitting there doing autoattack (though nice its not big enough to sustain high dps since we get a haste buff and not a dps buff like assassins so our autoattack doesnt hit as high as theirs accept for 10s every minute). I don't know how you play or any of the assassins you know, but I know I can't keep up with the assassins in my guild.</P>

[nomatterwhat]

<DIV>Assassins might out dps rangers, but not every fight.  Those long recasts you're talking about, pre-achievements some of our recasts are 15 minutes and 3 minutes.  I think you're highest is around 2 minute?  Thats a question not a statement before people jump on me sayin I need to get my facts straight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah I can out dps most classes just by having a 15 minute assassinate skill.  can I do it consistently?  bet your ranger I can't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And those mediocre melee skills you're referring too... the shadow blade line... thats my second highest line skippin the 15 minute recast.  so no its not really mediocre to me at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then we got the whole AOE thing remember, it cancels stealth.  Assassins get shafted over this.  Our dmg requires stealth and it requires close proximity.  What about you mr ranger?  do you need stealth and close proximity for all your highest hitters?  I know you need stealth for one but not proximity.  so either way you're already sitting pretty.</DIV>

[nomatterwhat]

well ok Third highest skipping the 3 minute line.  still it proves a point about consistency doesnt it.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then we got the whole AOE thing remember, it cancels stealth.  Assassins get shafted over this.  Our dmg requires stealth and it requires close proximity.  What about you mr ranger?  do you need stealth and close proximity for all your highest hitters?  I know you need stealth for one but not proximity.  so either way you're already sitting pretty.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Maybe we don't need Close Proximity, but our Combat Arts don't go off in .5seconds either. Most High Damage ranger arts have casting times of 2-5 Seconds. You also don't need consumbale components to do your high damage attacks now do you?<BR></P>

[nomatterwhat]

<DIV>we get some high dmg arrow attacks, just not as many.  I dont know thats a grey area.  Yes we get them and they have high dmg, but no we dont really rely on them.  Still you get to S-U-M-M-O-N and we don't.  Summon some fulginate and standing out of the frey vs. being in close proximity and having stealth constantly break? you decide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here what, rangers can have the arrows if I get stealth that doenst break on dot dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 2-5 seconds might suck... but we have longer recasts.  Sure I can cast in 0.5 seconds, but really, if I cant cast it again for another 3 minutes it really falls into the realm of SO WHAT?!?!?!</DIV>

[Marcuzs]

<DIV>I'll just reitterate what Khalan said, Our 2 biggest hits are 3s and 5s casts and we need to be stealthed for both. If we move at all during that time we get interupted and our autoattack still goes off which breaks stealth so we don't even get a 2nd try till we get back into stealth. Also we have no Ranged skills that go off faster than 1 sec (not including poise, with poise they are .7s at best). Also our biggest mellee hit (which there really is only 1) also requires stealth and flanking the mob. Frankly you have no place to complain about jousting AEs anymore when theres a post on the Assassin forum about 4k Ranged hits (which do not require stealth, proximity or flanking)</DIV>

[nomatterwhat]

<P>ok so if an assassin said they can hit 4k range without flankin or stealth, you're quick to believe that?</P> <P>What if I said a ranger cant talk cause I saw a ranger backstab a mob for 25,000k dmg.  we'll ok.  I try not to use really uber fitted people or people who exagerate or lie their a** off.  4k hit on a non flanked range?  more power to him, I'd never see it in my lifetime though.</P> <P>casting times might suck, but now we are getting into the realm of ease of play etc, NOT DPS RELATED.  The recast is still charging long before the mob is dead in most cases for the both of us, so it just cancels each other out, can you not see that?</P>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>you're dreaming if you think Rangers take the burden of arrow costs alone.  You're right about scouts feeling the cost of arrows (tanks too etc)...  but an assassin is an evil ranger in a way, so we get some nifty range dmg.  I go through about 4-5 arrows per pull solo'n.  If a ranger burns more arrows then that, it's not by much.  That's my biggest complaint about rangers, they try to corner the arrow sympathy card<FONT color=#99ff99>  Here we go again...can you talk about anything without interjecting this type of crap...who is trying to corner anything? This isnt a SOLO game...it does have opportunities for solo'ing but it is a group based game...I group...usually for hours at a time on the weekends.  I dont go through 4-5 arrows per pull when grouped.  I go through over 2500 arrows during a few hours grouped...assassins will go through less than that in a group naturally.  Not taking anything away from assassins...their damage is melee based. I think if they get ranged ca's they should summon arrows.  But arrow consumption will not be a problem for a solo'er...especially one who is absolutely convinced of the following:</FONT></P> <P>, when they can SUMMON arrows?  Yeah its a tier below?  boo-hoo...<FONT color=#99ff99>(you just cant type a response without things like this...cant argue a point without making snide remarks)</FONT> I still have to buy feyiron!  <FONT color=#99ff66>It is a tier below...you dont care about damage...so why does that mean our opinion is less valid because you are happy to just see damage done.  You shouldnt have to buy feyiron imho...you should already have summon arrows of a tier below your current level.  What good is summoning weapon if it doesnt work for your CA?  It isnt good its lame.  Our dps is now largely affected by auto attack thanks to LU22, thats fine...but they cant think that is a fix when you have to pay multiple plat at high levels just to watch them dissappear.  I respect that you HAVE an opinion on this...I just dont believe it is based on any experience as a ranger nor as a grouping assassin.  Arrows dont affect CA damage, they only affect autoattack damage...how often are your autoattacks even an issue?  You could buy tin arrows and not have your CA's affected. Honestly I am not sure why you dont.  So...no you dont have to buy feyiron arrows..you just do anyway.</FONT></P> <P>You may think I played the game for a year then joined the forums...  understand everyone are on different stages of their life, for all you know I came full circle and been here a few years longer then you have  <FONT color=#99ff99>You havent been here a few years longer...the game was not out a few years longer than when I started</FONT> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I respect your post, just not the first sentence.  <FONT color=#99ff99>Thats fine...honestly...I am beginning to think I am wasting my time trying to show you what we are talking about.  It seems you are already convinced that we are not honest in our arguments...that we are not sincere in that we believe it to be a serious issue for us...and that any sort of complaints lodged by a ranger is a whine.  That last seems obvious from the boohoo snipe you made.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff99>I mainly care whether or not you come in with the intention of discussing the problems most high level rangers see with the costs associated with playing our class and that of other classes.  Assassins are the only class that even comes close to ranger cost (a tank using an arrow on every pull doesnt even rate a place in this discussion). Assassins use poisons, buy arrows for their CA's...but they are not wholly dependent upon them in a group.  Some argue rangers dont have to do ranged all the time...well, yes we do if we care about putting out good damage...we dont have enough melee ca's to sustain any reasonable damage.  Some argue we get summoned arrows so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], well, this is coming from people who dont understand how a rangers damage is done...autoattack damage is dependent upon the quality of arrow you use.  We cant get woodworkers to supply us with arrows because they take far too long to make.  Woodworkers are generally shocked when you ask them how long for 3,000 arrows? Can I get them tomorrow? They want higher prices than vendors most times...a solution could be to make the arrows easier to make...but how can you assure me that is going to solve the cost issue.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff99>This is a discussion related to solutions for this issue.  At least that is what is needed...the title is kind of flame worthy...no other class wants to see Why no love for blah blah class?  It is clearly going to upset people and continue people saying whiner this and whiner that.  Personally, I think the words for the original post could have been different.  But, I cant change that.  But MAYBE I can change your opinion that our concerns have no basis.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks for trying to keep it a discussion, also, if you have any constructive suggestions they would be appreciated.</P> <P>Saihung</P>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV>we get some high dmg arrow attacks, just not as many.  I dont know thats a grey area.  Yes we get them and they have high dmg, but no we dont really rely on them.  Still you get to S-U-M-M-O-N and we don't.  Summon some fulginate and standing out of the frey vs. being in close proximity and having stealth constantly break? you decide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here what, rangers can have the arrows if I get stealth that doenst break on dot dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 2-5 seconds might suck... but we have longer recasts.  Sure I can cast in 0.5 seconds, but really, if I cant cast it again for another 3 minutes it really falls into the realm of SO WHAT?!?!?!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not going to get into the whole arrow issue here since there is a pretty large post on it already. BUT if you think summoning 45 arrows (adept 3) every 10 minutes is enough to do our job in raids and groups then your a fool. 45 arrows is NOTHING compared to what we go through.

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV>Assassins might out dps rangers, but not every fight.  Those long recasts you're talking about, pre-achievements some of our recasts are 15 minutes and 3 minutes.  I think you're highest is around 2 minute?  Thats a question not a statement before people jump on me sayin I need to get my facts straight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah I can out dps most classes just by having a 15 minute assassinate skill.  can I do it consistently?  bet your ranger I can't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And those mediocre melee skills you're referring too... the shadow blade line... thats my second highest line skippin the 15 minute recast.  so no its not really mediocre to me at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99>Then we got the whole AOE thing remember, it cancels stealth.  Assassins get shafted over this.  Our dmg requires stealth and it requires close proximity.  What about you mr ranger?  do you need stealth and close proximity for all your highest hitters?  I know you need stealth for one but not proximity.  so either way you're already sitting pretty.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Look, take this as constructive criticism...you dont know about rangers too much.  The more you discuss this the more it becomes apparent.  Also, you are arguing from a solo perspective...solo'ing is such a small part of the game.  We have stealthy fire (need stealth), culling the herd (rear fired shot), longshank (rear melee) Emberstrike (stealthed melee), another melee NAME FORGOTTEN (rear stealth), natural selection (stealthed).  You act like you know my class...but you dont...I dont pretend to know everything about assassins...so dont pretend you know about rangers.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Oh also, Storm of Arrows isnt a 2 min. recast...its like 10 if I remember correctly...I am sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken.  Stream of arrows is a longer recast too...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>This isnt a discussion about rangers vs. assassins...it is far from that.  So if that is what you want I am positive there are those threads somewhere out there where people argue incessantly about these things...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>I am sorry if I seem mean...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Saihung</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>ok so if an assassin said they can hit 4k range without flankin or stealth, you're quick to believe that?</P> <P>What if I said a ranger cant talk cause I saw a ranger backstab a mob for 25,000k dmg.  we'll ok.  I try not to use really uber fitted people or people who exagerate or lie their a** off.  4k hit on a non flanked range?  more power to him, I'd never see it in my lifetime though.</P> <P>casting times might suck, but now we are getting into the realm of ease of play etc, NOT DPS RELATED.  The recast is still charging long before the mob is dead in most cases for the both of us, so it just cancels each other out, can you not see that?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Um are you stupid? Its simple math. With my bow I can hit for 2 to 3k autoattack. If an Assassin had the same bow(and same strenght) they can hit 66% more damage than my hits due to your buffs since we do not get a DPS buff. Seems simple enough to me. (NOTE: These are RAID numbers, which have the mob debuffed to hell and gone. WIthout those debuffs its rather unlikely to hit numbers that large)</P> <P>How are casting times not DPS related? Hmm a hit does 2k with a cast time of .5s thats 4k DPS. If that same hit takes 2s to cast thats 1k DPS. Do you not get the definition of DPS? The recast only effects DPS in that you have to try and do the same damage with other skills during that time. Do you not have enough skills to use while you wait for your big hitters? Like you said yourself, the mob is usually dead before recasts are done so they hardly effect dps. </P><p>Message Edited by Marcuzs on <span class=date_text>04-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <DIV>we get some high dmg arrow attacks, just not as many.  I dont know thats a grey area.  Yes we get them and they have high dmg, but no we dont really rely on them.  Still you get to S-U-M-M-O-N and we don't.  Summon some fulginate and standing out of the frey vs. being in close proximity and having stealth constantly break? you decide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff99>Here what, rangers can have the arrows if I get stealth that doenst break on dot dmg.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 2-5 seconds might suck... but we have longer recasts.  Sure I can cast in 0.5 seconds, but really, if I cant cast it again for another 3 minutes it really falls into the realm of SO WHAT?!?!?!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Let me enlighten you to something...it doesnt matter what you want.  You dont play a ranger...you dont have a clue when it comes to this discussion as it is about a class you dont understand.</P> <P>You are set in your opinon.  Why discuss it further?</P> <P>Saihung<BR></P>

[nomatterwhat]

<P>sigh, saihung, I could reply a nice replace, then get frustrated I have to retype it.  so forgive me if this sounds more like cliff notes now.</P> <P>1)...  this is about roleplay fantasy really, and its not real money.  You chose a class that uses ranged projectile weapons.  Those arrows have got to come from somewhere!  having unlimited arrows demishes the spirit of the ranger.  Ranged attacks are your burden and your gift.  Rangers are held in high regard, I have a pet newbie ranger just for the IDEA of the ranger.  But make no mistake, having unlimited arrows will kill the spirit a little bit.</P> <P>2) You take summon arrows for granted.  I'm always going to be on the losin team cause there are more rangers here.  But please, dont use summon for a week or 2, then get back to me again about how much it sucks.</P> <P>3) I been here since launch + some eq1 time I guess I was tackin on.  Irrelevant, we both like the game and most people here been here since launch.  We see the game as a hobby we enjoy, otherwise we wouldnt be arguing in posts.</P> <P>4) you're not wasting your time trying to convince me, I have an open mind.  What is your biggest gripe anyway?  not to sound condescending.  Is it your play style you have to adopt?  your consumables?  your DPS?</P> <P>5) I may not see it from your point of view, I dont have a high lvl ranger.  Do you have a high level assassin?</P>

[nomatterwhat]

<P>you shouldnt be so quick to call me stupid while you post bad irrelevant math.</P> <P>DPS buff is just auto attack anyway, and you get HASTE buff.  It kinda cancels each other out.</P> <P>Yeah I might get more high hitters but I have to wait 15 minutes for one?  dont even compare the math to that.  Your bow can hit faster, my bow can hit more.  How is one better then the other in math?  Show me how DPS buff outweighs HASTE buff in your silly little math formulate for AUTO ATTACK only if you want to start posting math.</P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>you shouldnt be so quick to call me stupid while you post bad irrelevant math.</P> <P>DPS buff is just auto attack anyway, and you get HASTE buff.  It kinda cancels each other out.</P> <P>Yeah I might get more high hitters but I have to wait 15 minutes for one?  dont even compare the math to that.  Your bow can hit faster, my bow can hit more.  How is one better then the other in math?  Show me how DPS buff outweighs HASTE buff in your silly little math formulate for AUTO ATTACK only if you want to start posting math.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dps buffs are far superior to haste buffs for a number of reasons. IF you don't know that your grasp of game mechanics is juvenile at best.

[nomatterwhat]

<DIV>haste == more proc dmg.</DIV>

[nomatterwhat]

language filter on these forums zapped the fun out of this arguement.  good luck rangers hope you get what you think you deserve.

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> language filter on these forums zapped the fun out of this arguement.  good luck rangers hope you get what you think you deserve.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah because swearing totally adds to any logical argument /sarcasm

[nomatterwhat]

<P>I wasn't swearing but it thinks I was, its beyond irritating posting on these forums having to read your post 20 times to figure out what the problem was.</P> <P>anyway, why is dps better then haste, when haste procs more?  even if it didn't why is it?  dont let the term DPS fool you, haste is also a dps boost.</P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>I wasn't swearing but it thinks I was, its beyond irritating posting on these forums having to read your post 20 times to figure out what the problem was.</P> <P>anyway, why is dps better then haste, when haste procs more?  even if it didn't why is it?  dont let the term DPS fool you, haste is also a dps boost.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ah just so you asked I'll explain. </P> <P>During Combat Arts you don't auto-attack. With Haste you can get your weapons speeds so fast that your missing entire rounds of auto-attack inbetween combat Arts. With the Shortbow I use and 100% haste it roughly fires off every 2.5 Seconds.</P> <P>If I'm casting any of my combat arts with long casting times (And as a ranger we have a lot of them). I am losing out on Auto-attack damage because my attacks are missing beats in-between my combat arts. If I have a 5 Second Cast Combat art, thats almost 2 full rounds of Auto-attack Damage I'm losing.</P> <P>Your also assuming proc rate does not take haste into account, that is an assumption that has not been proved anywhere and merely opinion. It is very possible that faster attacks actually reduce your proc rate as they lower your Weapon Delay. Either way it's speculation and using it as an argument for or against haste is not sound.</P> <P>Then think about it in a real-game scenario. Your kiting or rooting mobs and shooting them, it's better to have less High damage attacks then lots of small ones as your chance to break roots and snares is increased. </P> <P>There are also a ton more ways to buff haste from items and spell than DPS.</P>

[FrankMullen]

<P>As I see it rangers are fine where they are now imo..</P> <P> </P> <P>Our top dps in some raids (all level 70 raid) is an assassin.</P> <P>In other raids it is one of our wizards or rangers that is top dps, it all depends on the encounter.</P> <P> </P> <P>Many, many named have AEs and fights must be ranged a lot of the time.</P> <P> </P> <P>When that happens assassin dps sucks and ranger, wizard, warlock dps will prevail.</P> <P> </P> <P>Brigands have AE immunity and sometimes they will get highest on the dps list, also cause they can autoattack while sorcerers go out of power etc etc</P> <P> </P> <P>I think most classes are pretty balanced now... talk about brawlers who are tanks and summoners that are supposed to be t2 dps.... that's screwed</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by FrankMullen on <span class=date_text>04-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 AM</span>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nomatterwhat wrote:<BR> <P>you shouldnt be so quick to call me stupid while you post bad irrelevant math.</P> <P>DPS buff is just auto attack anyway, and you get HASTE buff.  It kinda cancels each other out.</P> <P><STRONG>Yeah I might get more high hitters but I have to wait 15 minutes for one?</STRONG>  dont even compare the math to that.  Your bow can hit faster, my bow can hit more.  How is one better then the other in math?  Show me how DPS buff outweighs HASTE buff in your silly little math formulate for AUTO ATTACK only if you want to start posting math.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why even mention you have a big hit on a 15 min timer? You do realize our biggest hit is also on a 15 minute timer right? Although you can get it down to like 10 min with the STR AP line. I could also if I wanted to waste 20 points of the previous 4 skills that are useless to me for the most part just to reduce that timer. Not to mention the max hit for Sniper Shot is around 15k (highest for me anyways) and the highest I've seen for Decapitate is 30k (again all Raid numbers since thats really all I do now). Also yours only takes .5 sec to cast while ours takes 5s and both require stealth I believe, which makes ours much more likely to get broken by AEs., movement, etc.</P> <P>So really thats not a point worth mentioning because we easily have the downside there.<BR></P>

[Saihung23]

<P>Okay...I wrote somthing in response to you Nomatterwhat...the forum bug ate it yet again.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am done with this discussion.  You have a problem comprehending what I and others write.  (Like asking for endless arrows?  sorry, but I never did...) I am NOT calling you stupid, you just merely cant seem to grasp what I and others are writing.</P> <P>So, since it was made clear that this is not about arrows, I will leave this thread to its own design. There are several threads others have started along those lines.  I will take my hotheaded nature to those threads <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I wish everyone luck and hope that maybe we can get changes on some level.</P> <P>Nomatterwhat- I wish you peace health and happiness and also to those you love.  Never take what goes on in these forums outside of it.  Dont take it into the game and dont take it home with you.  No game is worth grief or aggrivation.  As such, I do wholeheartedly wish you well.  </P> <P>Saihung Talechaser</P>

[Fennir]

there are a couple things i would love to see tweaked with my class...mostly bug fixes and something pertaining to our arrow usage...  and i have heard they are working on these problems.as far as DPS goes, as long as I don't compare myself to certain other classes, i am not unhappy.  i can consistently pull down 800-1200 DPS depending on the encounter and situation, and that feels fine to me.  when i crash and don't make it back to the raid grp in time for a mob, people notice.  i can do my job and that's really all that matters.if i had to ask for anything besides bug fixes, i'd ask for a look at our two multi-hit bowshots, Precise Shot and Triple Volley line.  Now that they no longer have a chance to proc multiple times and remembering that successive shots can miss, the damage on them really is lackluster for their casting time and power cost.   either the damage needs to be upped, or they should be changed to a powerdrain or given a debuff.  as it stands, unless we get really lucky with crits and hits, they are almost not worth using (almost).<div></div>

[Oakum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> klepp wrote:<BR> <DIV>sorry, i dont run the parser.. i just look at it when its posted.  And yea my defense calucaltor says the monks are better tanks too, <FONT color=#ffff00>and better scouts w/ FD!</FONT>  As for vanguard, can it be worse than this?  It couldnt be as bad as DDO =p  <BR>And to the tool who said rangers already have enough loving lol let me guess you play a brawler or a conjuror.  Or one of those utility scouts thats already on our tail or out  dps'ing us and dont want a gap.    riiiight</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a monk, my top DPS is 360 in a duo enviroment at L57 against blue's. I would like to hear numbers from a ranger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, don't know about monk vs ranger dps but I do know that (and I dont have a parser)  when I duo'ed some in sanctum (I am a warden) working on some quest with a ranger (and wardens are a low dps class, in a group with a parser a templer would out dps me about 35% of the time since their dps increase) , if I pulled with my one dot and and then started nuking and healing I almost  never lost aggro even when he was going out.  If the ranger pulled and we were both going all out. I would sometimes pull agro off of him.  Both of us using a mixture of master and adept 1's.  Who knows, I only think about dps when someone parses in the group mostly. Maybe this will shed some light on it from a different viewpoint. <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Marcuzs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakum wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> selch wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> klepp wrote:<BR> <DIV>sorry, i dont run the parser.. i just look at it when its posted.  And yea my defense calucaltor says the monks are better tanks too, <FONT color=#ffff00>and better scouts w/ FD!</FONT>  As for vanguard, can it be worse than this?  It couldnt be as bad as DDO =p  <BR>And to the tool who said rangers already have enough loving lol let me guess you play a brawler or a conjuror.  Or one of those utility scouts thats already on our tail or out  dps'ing us and dont want a gap.    riiiight</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a monk, my top DPS is 360 in a duo enviroment at L57 against blue's. I would like to hear numbers from a ranger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, don't know about monk vs ranger dps but I do know that (and I dont have a parser)  when I duo'ed some in sanctum (I am a warden) working on some quest with a ranger (and wardens are a low dps class, in a group with a parser a templer would out dps me about 35% of the time since their dps increase) , if I pulled with my one dot and and then started nuking and healing I almost  never lost aggro even when he was going out.  If the ranger pulled and we were both going all out. I would sometimes pull agro off of him.  Both of us using a mixture of master and adept 1's.  Who knows, I only think about dps when someone parses in the group mostly. Maybe this will shed some light on it from a different viewpoint. <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's not hard to take agro from a Ranger once the mob is on him since we only get 4 to 6(depending on APs) frontal attacks within mellee range, and none of them do all that much damage. So hate generation at that point is rather small. As for him getting agro from you, he very well might have left his stance up that reduces agro. I know I've done this while tanking since it's always up and its easy to forget about.<BR>