Bring back some form of Complexity? Please Share.

[TheOneWolf]

<div>Yea another one of these, Well, i've been seeing Eq2 being dumbed down to WoW's lvl, which is good in its own way, but we dont have some sort of "Complexity" any more to the game. Just about everything, since release, lost most to all its "hardness" and well, lets just say I personally like how SWG was BEFORE the new combat update, which was like a year ago XD. But i have a feeling Eq2 is heading down the same path as SWG. Maybe a new form of complexity is in order, maybe something that has to do with the classes or weapon system. Right now the only complex thing i see is Crafting, but even that isnt "hard" enough to acheive.</div><div> </div><div>Please fill free to add your own thoughts and concerns, i'm doing this to see what the community(or a small proportion of it)thinks in terms of gameplay functionallity and IF the dev's would take some of this in "Better" consideration then they have in the past. This is all my personal opinions though. Please share yours.</div><div> </div><div>-Wolf</div>

[Magu]

They're not going to undo what they're doing.<div></div>

[DarkLegacy2005]

<div></div>You know I wouldnt fret too much about the game, because the Dev's baby it enough that it will consistently stay a great game. Sure there are times when I am upset about the patch notes, or when I dont like what they are doing, but they do fix their mistakes. As far as complexity is concerned, the game has a LOT of complexity, you just have to look for it.

[Jai1]

<div></div><p>Yeah, I just don't agree with this. I've played WoW.  I don't think its the same game at all.  I'm not really sure what people are after by putting this out.  Sony picked up on some WoW feature that improved the game.  I don't think they are making it easier for say, kids.  They have SWG for that. </p><p>I imagine its like anything, once you have it down, it seems easy.  There are a lot of aspects that aren't.  I let my GF play my alt sometimes and there's so many skills, that I take for granted, that aren't easily picked up.  The alts a tank and I don't let her group much anymore because shes not aware of the enviroment and adds were killing people. I imagine if she put the time in that I do, she would pick it up.</p><p>So it's not a hard game in the sense that only elites can play but there is a learning curve and not as easy as say WoW is to pick up.  So I see complexity still. </p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div>The game is still complex in current form.  So many quests, lore, and a myriad of things to do.  So many darned things that it keeps me pretty busy and away from real life a bit too much.  IMHO, the world is rich and very complex.  I see the team tweaking things to the game to streamline it and make it a pleasure to play.   I don't see how the game has gotten much "dumber" as people like to point out.  Take a new player to EQ2.   The game is absolutely overwhelming at first compared to a more simple game such as WoW.    The game still has a rather steep learning curve for newer players.  </div><div> </div><div> I think the big gripe is people thinking it is "easier" and not as hard with changes to death penalties, feathers over quest givers heads, changes to the crafting system, etc.  I must admit, the crafting system will be "less complex" from before.  I sorta' liked crafting before the proposed changes.  It will be fun to make an item in one combine but I didn't really mind the crafting system before the changes.  But I still see the game pretty darned good in current state.  I admit, I think the game has gotten a bit easier but personally I'm not looking for a game that sucks all the time and energy out of me to achieve anything.  Also,  a very hard game doesn't make you into an intellectual elite player either.  It just means that you have more time on your hands, patience, and a dash of skill to play the game. </div><div> </div><div>So my input to the OP is the game is fine and getting more and more fun.  Good job SOE.</div><div> </div><div>Edit:  One comment on WoW.  I personally believe that the game designers of WoW are some of the most talented people in the industry.  We can debate the pros/cons of WoW but the game was so good in so many ways.  Polished, streamlined, and relatively bug free.  Art work, although not to everyone's taste, was absolutely breathtaking and beautiful.  A beautiful game---once again my opinion.  The SOE development team even admits to playing WoW, enjoying it thoroughly, and learning from what made this game such a massive hit.   WoW also captured the magic of having a totally fun game where you didn't feel as if you were grinding.  I'm glad that SOE picked out some things from WoW to implement into their game.  I'm glad that the industry learns from one another.    I certainly don't want to play a WoW clone.  I left WoW feeling like I was missing complexity in a game.  WoW was just "too easy" and it attracted a rather immature crowd.  Fortunately I came back to a revamped EQ2 (I think I resubscribed in July 2005) and have loved EQ2 ever since.</div><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jai1 wrote:<div></div><p> *snip*  Sony picked up on some WoW feature <font color="#ff9900">that improved the game</font>. *snip*</p><hr></blockquote><p>I wont comment on complexity as I am a slow leveler and haven't seen anything above Tier 4 yet</p><p>but the above sentence needs to be corrected imho: Sony picked up on some WoW feature <font color="#ff9900">that brought more subscribers</font></p><p>And for those who say its the same - think about the Academy Awards, we all know that they usually dont make the top-3 in the video store <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><p>..........but the above sentence needs to be corrected imho: Sony picked up on some WoW feature <font color="#ff9900">that brought more subscribers.......</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>True. Every gaming company wants more subscribers.  Heck, I want SOE to have more subscribers.  The more happy people and new players coming into the world makes the game a vibrant game that hopefully will stay around a long time.</p><p>But lets face it, the developers want to make the game better.  The developers are passionate about their work, they are always looking at ways to improve a playing experience.  They see things that can streamline their game and they want to make it better.  So yes, money is certainly a factor.  But it's all about designing a flawless game and putting out a product that you can be proud of.</p><p>Gulp----I am really sounding like a SOE fangirl so I better get off my soapbox.  I just have faith in development teams and know that they pour their hearts and souls into a game.  Sorry.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheOneWolf wrote:<div>Yea another one of these, Well, i've been seeing Eq2 being dumbed down to WoW's lvl, which is good in its own way, <font color="#ccff00">but we dont have some sort of "Complexity" any more to the game</font>. Just about everything, since release, lost most to all its "hardness" ....<hr></div></blockquote><p>what complexity are you talking about that you think the game has lost?</p><p>i cannot remember the game having been more complex at release (besides the interdependence of tradeskillers back then.) for adventurer i dont think much has changed in regard to complexity.</p><p>also to lose "hardness" has nothing to do with complexity. and maybe you want to specify what hardness you are refering to that has been lost in your opinion as i really cannot think of any. i guess you wanted hint at shard recovery. but did it make the game harder? was that named mob any harder to beat cause you left a shard when you wiped? the fight was the same, the mobs difficulty didnt change. the game wasnt harder with shards. it was just more time sink as you wanted to go back for recovering it. i dont equal time sink with hardness or complexity.</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>True. Every gaming company wants more subscribers.  Heck, I want SOE to have more subscribers.  The more happy people and new players coming into the world makes the game a vibrant game that hopefully will stay around a long time.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Right, and what more subscriber would bring into that game? I'm not able to find people to group with any more. Sure, total number of people is higher, but it doesn't give me personally anything. Everybody are solo. So the only point imho is just to pull more people into subscription. Then why not to buy simply RPG game? Why I'm paying $15 a month? I'm paying for community. I want to group and communicate in game! Where is it now?</p><p>Game in heading to simplicity and lower expectations, which of cause would bring some more people, but soon many people will leave because simple doesn't mean interesting. Chess is not simple, but it will be here even after thousands of years. EQ2 not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><p>And yes, as I was writing again:</p><p>Bring back shards and xp debt!</p>

[Amise]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jai1 wrote:<div></div><p>Yeah, I just don't agree with this. I've played WoW.  I don't think its the same game at all.  I'm not really sure what people are after by putting this out.  Sony picked up on some WoW feature that improved the game.  I don't think they are making it easier for say, kids.  They have SWG for that. </p><p>I imagine its like anything, once you have it down, it seems easy.  There are a lot of aspects that aren't.  I let my GF play my alt sometimes and there's so many skills, that I take for granted, that aren't easily picked up.  The alts a tank and I don't let her group much anymore because shes not aware of the enviroment and adds were killing people. I imagine if she put the time in that I do, she would pick it up.</p><p>So it's not a hard game in the sense that only elites can play but there is a learning curve and not as easy as say WoW is to pick up.  So I see complexity still. </p><hr></blockquote>I agree.  I have a level 58 warrior in WoW.  I have gotten to level 58 with less than ten days /played time & it's my first and only WoW character.  Despite my habit of taking my time and questing/exploring etc I found it is absolutely impossible to level slowly in WoW.  And this is on a PvP server where I spent probably half my playing time ganking or being ganked or playing in battlegrounds.   Don't get me wrong, I think WoW is a fun game & I enjoy it in small doses.  There are aspects of it I like more than EQ2, for example the no-zone feature of WoW is just awesome.  But I can accept it wouldn't work in EQ2 because the graphics in the latter game are much more complex.To me the two games are completely different, regardless of anything that EQ2 is adopting that is similar to anything WoW already has.   When EQ2 implements something from WoW that I like I say yay because it means the game I really love is going to get a little bit more fun to play.   I think that any sensible gaming company is going to copy the best bits from other games and incorporate them into their own.  It would really be rather stupid not to do it.But it just doesn't mean EQ2 is being dumbed down or losing its complexity or anything.  I don't agree with that at all.  Complexity isn't neccessarily in the mechanics and whether or not you experience heavy death penalties or share debt with your group or whatever.  That's not complexity it's just a PITA.  Complexity is lore, quests, storylines, gameplay, art, sound and everything that makes up the entire game.  Mechanics is just one small part of it.Check out the lore in KoS and how it intertwines with EQLive lore and original EQ2 lore and DoF lore and then tell me this game isn't complex.</span><div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><div>my usual 2 copper:</div><div> </div><div>regarding complexity the game has improved imo</div><div>tradeskill recipes and interdependency are streamlined somehow (although with the interim crafting skills like apothecary I lost overview about the TS reactions completely) without dumbing down the system, factions have some meaning again and quests are more complex (and immersing) than ever. being able to choose the class from the beginning might have taken away a bit of the feeling that your character grows into a role but it was for the better as even low lvl clerics(p.e.) don't share the same dozen spells/arts - so it added to compexity.</div><div> </div><div>regarding if the game has become more challenging  the game lost  a lot of what made it stand out from the crowd. atm my greatest challenge is to have a feeling of pride or achievement or simplier put to care about anything because nothing has any consequences.</div><div> </div><div>but complexity and challenge are independent from each other imo.</div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:18 AM</span></p>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<div></div><p>And yes, as I was writing again:</p><p>Bring back shards and xp debt!</p><hr></blockquote>I fail to understand how bringing back either would increase the complexity of the game.Seems to me you're confusing complexity with difficulty and the old risk/reward problem. They're not the same thing.</span><div></div>

[Terabethia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<p>Right, and what more subscriber would bring into that game? I'm not able to find people to group with any more. Sure, total number of people is higher, but it doesn't give me personally anything. Everybody are solo. So the only point imho is just to pull more people into subscription. Then why not to buy simply RPG game? Why I'm paying $15 a month? I'm paying for community. I want to group and communicate in game! Where is it now?</p><p>Game in heading to simplicity and lower expectations, which of cause would bring some more people, but soon many people will leave because simple doesn't mean interesting. Chess is not simple, but it will be here even after thousands of years. EQ2 not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#000080" face="Georgia"><p><font color="#33ccff">It sounds to me like you have chosen a game not designed for you, so now you want to change it to what you want. As far as everyone being solo, that is completely not true. Sure, SoE has designed lots of solo content, but at the same time, they are highly focused on group and raid content. And, there are only a handful of classes that can effectively solo and make it worth it. It's quite annoying to hear that people "spent hours with LFG tag, but no one asked, so there must not be any players around". This is just crazy. First off, those people are just being lazy. If I want a group, and there are none already formed that need me, I form one up MYSELF! I don't want for hours to be asked. I check with my guildies, then the LFG list, and within 15-20 minutes I am killing mobs. This game in no way lacks community, you just have to find it!</font></p><p><font color="#33ccff">The game heading for simplicity? Lower expectations? Well, I am a raider, and I guess I just don't see that. The mobs get harder and harder, and everything I do is an accomplishment. Every level I gain, every quest I complete and every mob I kill is an accomplishment. I don't see how anything is "easier". Spirit shards never prevented someone from trying out a new mob, it was debt and armor repair that deterred them. 95 times out of a 100, you were going to go right back to where you died after a wipe either way.</font></p></font></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#000080" face="Georgia"><p><font color="#33ccff">It sounds to me like you have chosen a game not designed for you, so now you want to change it to what you want. </font></p></font><hr></div></blockquote><p>i beg your pardon but in that case you have to listen better. bagira DID choose a game that was designed for her when she started playing shards where removed, group XP debth was removed and single XP debth was severly lowered late in 2005 as CHANGES.</p><p>all she wants is the game BACK that WAS designed for here.</p><p>and so do I :smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:50 AM</span></p>

[Rhianni]

<div>OP:  I dont see how it has lost complexity with the exception of tradeskills losing interdependancy and sub combines.    Less difficult perhaps, less fun perhaps, less time sinking perhaps but I dont see less complex.</div>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#000080" face="Georgia"><p><font color="#33ccff">It sounds to me like you have chosen a game not designed for you, so now you want to change it to what you want. </font></p></font><hr></div></blockquote><p>i beg your pardon but in that case you have to listen better. bagira DID choose a game that was designed for her when she started playing shards where removed, group XP debth was removed and single XP debth was severly lowered late in 2005 as CHANGES.</p><p>all she wants is the game BACK that WAS designed for here.</p><p>and so do I :smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:50 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>seems rather to me, if anyone could only motivate himself when he was threatened with xp debt, that he somehow missed the intention and purpose of the game.</p><p>i dont think that the original design intended to give ppl the feeling that to avoid xp debt / shards is the main goal and biggest accomplishment one should strife for. unfortunately many ppl have played it this way and their main focus was not, to do great or fun things, but their main focus was not to die. this has caused a lot of bad feelings in groups where ppl after a wipe didnt say to each other "...well at least it was fun" but where they were [Removed for Content] and frustrated.</p><p>i compare grouping in the game to a sports team in real life. the teams i have been in usually had 2 main motivations for their activity, one was to simply have fun spending time together the other was the feeling of accomplishment when winning against an opposing team. they didnt need a 3rd component like "punishment" to be motivated. it would be rediculous to impose a fine or to threaten them with other penalties in case they are losing. it sounds just as rediculous for me to ask for changing back death penalty in eq2. i am glad its gone, i do not miss it.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<p>*snip*</p><p>i compare grouping in the game to a sports team in real life. the teams i have been in usually had 2 main motivations for their activity, one was to simply have fun spending time together the other was the feeling of accomplishment when winning against an opposing team. they didnt need a 3rd component like "punishment" to be motivated. it would be rediculous to impose a fine or to threaten them with other penalties in case they are losing. it sounds just as rediculous for me to ask for changing back death penalty in eq2. i am glad its gone, i do not miss it.</p><p>*snip*</p><hr></blockquote><p>a sports team, eh?</p><p>well then let me tell you something - in a sports league there aren't only winners and second winners - some teams actually LOOSE. not only a single game but also fan base, sponsorship and money. which means lesser wages, good players have to be sold, the new stadium wont be built......and its getting worse over the years until a team is just a sick joke and near to being forgotten.....I think a team owner or loyal player can go through a lot of punishment that way - punishment everyone tries to avoid.</p><p>EQ2 is like a never ending Winter Olympics with only "exotic" teams like the legendary jamaican ice-bob team. its great if they'd win but if they don't.....well at least they've been there, did there best, enjoyed themselfes and had a good time :smileywink:</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote>i beg your pardon but in that case you have to listen better. bagira DID choose a game that was designed for her when she started playing shards where removed, group XP debth was removed and single XP debth was severly lowered late in 2005 as CHANGES.</blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>I was just starting to write the same, but you were first <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Thanks.</p><p>Right, I've paid for another game and now I'm just dumped. Of cause I'm not happy.</p><p>BTW. complexity and difficulty is very coupled. As more complex a game as more difficult to win.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<p>*snip*</p><p>i compare grouping in the game to a sports team in real life. the teams i have been in usually had 2 main motivations for their activity, one was to simply have fun spending time together the other was the feeling of accomplishment when winning against an opposing team. they didnt need a 3rd component like "punishment" to be motivated. it would be rediculous to impose a fine or to threaten them with other penalties in case they are losing. it sounds just as rediculous for me to ask for changing back death penalty in eq2. i am glad its gone, i do not miss it.</p><p>*snip*</p><hr></blockquote><p>a sports team, eh?</p><p>well then let me tell you something - in a sports league there aren't only winners and second winners - some teams actually LOOSE. not only a single game but also fan base, sponsorship and money. which means lesser wages, good players have to be sold, the new stadium wont be built......and its getting worse over the years until a team is just a sick joke and near to being forgotten.....I think a team owner or loyal player can go through a lot of punishment that way - punishment everyone tries to avoid.</p><p>EQ2 is like a never ending Winter Olympics with only "exotic" teams like the legendary jamaican ice-bob team. its great if they'd win but if they don't.....well at least they've been there, did there best, enjoyed themselfes and had a good time :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>ah yes, thats exactly my point.</p><p>if a group wipes when trying to kill a named there is something already they are losing. the lose time it took (to gather the group, clear the trash and get to the named,....) and they lose out on money and loot.</p><p>if a raiding guild keeps wiping instead of progressing, on top of losing time and loot, they also will lose fan base / members and they lose esteem and respect of other ppl and sooner or later the guild will be forgotten.</p><p>there is no need to artificially put some harsh death penalty on top of this.</p><p>if you dont care weather your group / raid wins or dies and need some extra penalty to be able to motivate yourself then i would think there is something else wrong already.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><p>if you dont care weather your group / raid wins or dies and need some extra penalty to be able to motivate yourself then i would think there is something else wrong already.</p><hr></blockquote><p>the problem is rather that people start not to care about any kind of danger. as i said several times the question is not <font color="#ffcc00">"will we achieve our goal"</font> anymore but simply <font color="#ffcc00">"how long will it take".</font></p><p>and yes i admit it - <font color="#ff9900">if the only challenge left in the game is speed I DO lack motivation.</font></p>

[retro_guy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div>The game is still complex in current form.  So many quests, lore, and a myriad of things to do.  So many darned things that it keeps me pretty busy and away from real life a bit too much.  IMHO, the world is rich and very complex.  I see the team tweaking things to the game to streamline it and make it a pleasure to play.   I don't see how the game has gotten much "dumber" as people like to point out.  Take a new player to EQ2.   The game is absolutely overwhelming at first compared to a more simple game such as WoW.    The game still has a rather steep learning curve for newer players.  </div><div> </div><div> I think the big gripe is people thinking it is "easier" and not as hard with changes to death penalties, feathers over quest givers heads, changes to the crafting system, etc.  I must admit, the crafting system will be "less complex" from before.  I sorta' liked crafting before the proposed changes.  It will be fun to make an item in one combine but I didn't really mind the crafting system before the changes.  But I still see the game pretty darned good in current state.  I admit, I think the game has gotten a bit easier but personally I'm not looking for a game that sucks all the time and energy out of me to achieve anything.  Also,  a very hard game doesn't make you into an intellectual elite player either.  It just means that you have more time on your hands, patience, and a dash of skill to play the game. </div><div> </div><div>So my input to the OP is the game is fine and getting more and more fun.  Good job SOE.</div><div> </div><div>Edit:  One comment on WoW.  I personally believe that the game designers of WoW are some of the most talented people in the industry.  We can debate the pros/cons of WoW but the game was so good in so many ways.  Polished, streamlined, and relatively bug free.  Art work, although not to everyone's taste, was absolutely breathtaking and beautiful.  A beautiful game---once again my opinion.  The SOE development team even admits to playing WoW, enjoying it thoroughly, and learning from what made this game such a massive hit.   <font color="#ffcc33">WoW also captured the magic of having a totally fun game where you didn't feel as if you were grinding. </font> I'm glad that SOE picked out some things from WoW to implement into their game.  I'm glad that the industry learns from one another.    I certainly don't want to play a WoW clone.  I left WoW feeling like I was missing complexity in a game.  WoW was just "too easy" and it attracted a rather immature crowd.  Fortunately I came back to a revamped EQ2 (I think I resubscribed in July 2005) and have loved EQ2 ever since.</div><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I agree with much of what you said and would like to address one point you mentioned.IMO EQ2 players as OBSESSED with XP.Since KOS was released I have been in 1 group because EVERY other group I see, (which is guild groups, 60-69 channel groups (probably 5 chanells that I watch)) only ever have "XP group looking for 2 to join SOS/EGG grind". I'd love to do these instances, but to explore, do quests, kill names, farm masters, but I REFUSE to joind a group that has the metality that getting XP quickly, and only XP, is something worthwhile.What is it with having to get a group together and go to the hardest zone you can "humanly" survive so you can get levels??IMO when someone XP grinds (and I can understand if they have 4 alts to level) they are not even playing EQ2, certainly not the EQ2 I know and love.Anyway, that's my daily rant. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[btennison]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<p>*snip*</p><p>i compare grouping in the game to a sports team in real life. the teams i have been in usually had 2 main motivations for their activity, one was to simply have fun spending time together the other was the feeling of accomplishment when winning against an opposing team. they didnt need a 3rd component like "punishment" to be motivated. it would be rediculous to impose a fine or to threaten them with other penalties in case they are losing. it sounds just as rediculous for me to ask for changing back death penalty in eq2. i am glad its gone, i do not miss it.</p><p>*snip*</p><hr></blockquote><p>a sports team, eh?</p><p>well then let me tell you something - in a sports league there aren't only winners and second winners - some teams actually LOOSE. not only a single game but also fan base, sponsorship and money. which means lesser wages, good players have to be sold, the new stadium wont be built......and its getting worse over the years until a team is just a sick joke and near to being forgotten.....I think a team owner or loyal player can go through a lot of punishment that way - punishment everyone tries to avoid.</p><p>EQ2 is like a never ending Winter Olympics with only "exotic" teams like the legendary jamaican ice-bob team. its great if they'd win but if they don't.....well at least they've been there, did there best, enjoyed themselfes and had a good time :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>I hardly think Zitha was refering to a professional sports team. For every pro sports team, making and losing money, there are 10s of thousands of local, for fun, teams in every sport or game. These small, local, teams are mostly organized for fun and as long as the members are enjoying themselves no one needs to be punished.</p><p>You need to get your mind around the fact that EQ2 players are strictly amatuers. Unless you are getting paid millions to play EQ2 there's no sense comparing yourself to a professional. :smileywink:</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div>I am also not a professional poker player.</div><div> </div><div>but when my friends and i play we do it for a high enough amount of money so that we have to think a little bit about bluffing or raising for the 10th time</div><div> </div><div>atm EQ2  feels  like playing poker for monopoly $. whe're having a good time and thats it.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: even in the <font color="#ffcc00">fun-basketballteam</font> I play, we try to  get out of the lowest local league and once we did this we'll do what we can to stay there (to avoid the <font color="#ffcc00">loss of our achievement</font>)</div><div> </div><div>please dont tell me that except for a small minority everbody else looks at EQ2 the same way they are playing BB in front of the garage with their children.....</div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-11-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:14 AM</span></p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div>atm EQ2  feels  like playing poker for monopoly $. whe're having a good time and thats it.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I would say differently.</p><p>Meaning "to lose" in EQ2 now is changed to "to progress slowly".Meaning "to win" in EQ2 now is changed to "to progress quicker".So, players can not really lose in this game. Probably people like it - nether loose without any affort from their side.</p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><p>the problem is rather that people start not to care about any kind of danger. as i said several times the question is not <font color="#ffcc00">"will we achieve our goal"</font> anymore but simply <font color="#ffcc00">"how long will it take".</font></p><p>and yes i admit it - <font color="#ff9900">if the only challenge left in the game is speed I DO lack motivation.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>i do not understand your logic here.</p><p>what was different with group xp debt?  what danger did it add? the only thing it added was a slow down of gaining xp. so if you think the only challenge left in the game is speed, could you pls explain what challenge has there been before?</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><blockquote> <font color="#ffcc00">the only thing it added was a slow down of gaining xp. so if you think the only challenge left in the game is speed, could you pls explain what challenge has there been before?</font><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>players who did play like stupid morons or did watch TV beside EQ2 actually did LOOSE xp not where slowed down. so sooner or later they had to either learn playing the game or to at least pay some attention.:smileytongue:</p><p><font color="#ffcc00">as it is NOW death is only slowing down the grind.</font></p><p>in addition before shards/group debth where removed.....a group that got wiped 2 consecutive times usually gave up on that certain mob.</p><p>but now every soloer or group can afford to try a dozen times - because if you kill a non-heroic yellow or a heroic blue the debth from a couple of wipes is payed immediately :smileyvery-happy:</p><p><font color="#ffcc00">the challenge before was that we had to THINK about what we were doing - where we were venturing, which mobs we did attack, with whom we did group and mistakes often had a high price.</font></p><p>no its like a platform game where a bunch of complete idiots can tackle a mob hard to kill even for a good group because after a couple of tries it probably works.</p><p>but maybe thats the way  the majority of subscribers want it. I mean I HOPE it is so because i wouldn't want soe to screw the game i liked so much in 2004 for nothing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Lynadianya Zeran]

<div></div><p>I began playing EQ2 on launch day.  I loved it.  My guild, with whom I have played many a game since late 1999 was also there.  Within two months, I was the last one playing.  This was not because of WoW, it was because of one too many party wipes because of bad geometry in Black Burrow and shard recoveries.  I could feel the stress of my good friends come through over the keyboard.  There were arguments between people who had never argued over a game before.  We had to be in BB because Stormhold was certain death also.  It too so long to level, that we hadn't managed to get out of that particular level range. </p><p>One by one they all left.  After another month or so, so did I.  The game was impossible to solo and leveling was very slow.  I went to play WoW.  Boring and ugly, but that is my opinion.  Played CoH, pretty particle effects but still frustrating, also my opinion. Played Matrix, interesting, but I was still alone. </p><p>Fast forward 7 months.  I came back just to put my foot in the water.  Low and behold, the game was truly fun!  Not just pretty and complex, but fun!  There has hardly been a day since that I have not played.  A few months after that, I dragged my old GM back (just to make me GM of a guild of people who hadn't played in a year).  He was re-hooked.  His wife decided she had to come back and look at her baby dragon, she was re-hooked.  Now, pretty much the whole guild is back together and having a blast!</p><p>These people are not WoW kids looking for something easy to play.  They are all adults with spouses, jobs, lives, and children.  When they sit down to play a game, they want to feel like they can accomplish something.  They don't want to spend all their time grinding away xp debt again.  When we have a full party wipe, we laugh now, instead of yell at each other for standing too close to where an add just spawned.  We don't have to waste time getting our shards back.  We can sit down and have a play session and accomplish something in a reasonable amount of time, then get back to our lives, spouses, jobs and children.</p><p>I for one do not miss shards, or xp debt.  I do not miss the level grind.  I don't even much miss the access quests.  The game is not less complex.  It is not dumbed-down.  The devs are simply taking out the things that a lot of people thought were nothing more than aggrevating time sinks whose sole purpose was to make everything take that much longer to accomplish.  The feeling of accomplishment for me (and I realize that this is not the same as it is for others) is in how well I did something, not how much time it took me.  Making something longer and more frustrating does not make me feel more of a sense of accomplishment when it's done. </p>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#000080" face="Georgia"><p><font color="#33ccff">It sounds to me like you have chosen a game not designed for you, so now you want to change it to what you want. </font></p></font><hr></div></blockquote><p>i beg your pardon but in that case you have to listen better. bagira DID choose a game that was designed for her when she started playing shards where removed, group XP debth was removed and single XP debth was severly lowered late in 2005 as CHANGES.</p><p>all she wants is the game BACK that WAS designed for here.</p><p>and so do I :smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:50 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Do you know how many people want SWG back the way it was before NGE?? Guess what it's not gonna happen in SWG. If they change things in this game back to the way they were then I want the version of SWG I enjoyed back too. After all that's only fair isn't it?<p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:14 PM</span></p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div><div></div>Do you know how many people want SWG back the way it was before NGE?? Guess what it's not gonna happen in SWG. <font color="#ffcc00">If they change things in this game back to the way they were then I want the version of SWG I enjoyed back too. After all that's only fair isn't it?</font><hr></blockquote><p>i always wondered where all those in-game griefers come from when everyone on the forums is such a nice guy/ga....... but you're the perfect example of someone with the <font color="#ffcc00">if-i-cant-have-it-no-one-should-have-it</font> attitude and finally someone admitted it to be :smileytongue:</p><p> </p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lynadianya Zeran wrote:<div></div><p>I began playing EQ2 on launch day.  I loved it.  My guild, with whom I have played many a game since late 1999 was also there.  Within two months, I was the last one playing.  This was not because of WoW, it was because of one too many party wipes because of bad geometry in Black Burrow and shard recoveries.  I could feel the stress of my good friends come through over the keyboard.  There were arguments between people who had never argued over a game before.  We had to be in BB because Stormhold was certain death also.  It too so long to level, that we hadn't managed to get out of that particular level range. </p><p>One by one they all left.  After another month or so, so did I.  The game was impossible to solo and leveling was very slow.  I went to play WoW.  Boring and ugly, but that is my opinion.  Played CoH, pretty particle effects but still frustrating, also my opinion. Played Matrix, interesting, but I was still alone. </p><p>Fast forward 7 months.  I came back just to put my foot in the water.  Low and behold, the game was truly fun!  Not just pretty and complex, but fun!  There has hardly been a day since that I have not played.  A few months after that, I dragged my old GM back (just to make me GM of a guild of people who hadn't played in a year).  He was re-hooked.  His wife decided she had to come back and look at her baby dragon, she was re-hooked.  Now, pretty much the whole guild is back together and having a blast!</p><p>These people are not WoW kids looking for something easy to play.  They are all adults with spouses, jobs, lives, and children.  When they sit down to play a game, they want to feel like they can accomplish something.  They don't want to spend all their time grinding away xp debt again.  When we have a full party wipe, we laugh now, instead of yell at each other for standing too close to where an add just spawned.  We don't have to waste time getting our shards back.  We can sit down and have a play session and accomplish something in a reasonable amount of time, then get back to our lives, spouses, jobs and children.</p><p>I for one do not miss shards, or xp debt.  I do not miss the level grind.  I don't even much miss the access quests.  The game is not less complex.  It is not dumbed-down.  The devs are simply taking out the things that a lot of people thought were nothing more than aggrevating time sinks whose sole purpose was to make everything take that much longer to accomplish.  The feeling of accomplishment for me (and I realize that this is not the same as it is for others) is in how well I did something, not how much time it took me.  Making something longer and more frustrating does not make me feel more of a sense of accomplishment when it's done. </p><hr></blockquote><p>Very nicely said.  I only lasted in EQ2 for 30 days after launch.  I left right after the trial period, not being able to stomach the things that you mentioned.  I remember looking forward to EQ2 with great anticipation, playing with the character generation tool for hours, reading everything I could about the game.  We did our research on guilds and  were accepted into a guild before the game launched.  I was so darned excited when I finally loaded up my copy of EQ2 and started playing.  But within a short period, things became frustrating very quickly.  People were so darned serious and the bickering starting when there were group wipes.   The stress levels were probably some of the highest that I saw in any game.  What I remember was the lack of laughter and fun in the game.  It was almost like a job.   That is why we left and didn't come back until much later until some more "fun" factor was put into the game.</p><p>Anyway, I really liked your post and so much of what you said resonated wtih me. </p>

[klepp]

<div></div>yea people cry for ease .. they get it.  To change it back would bring an uproar.. not to mention SoE would be admitting they were wrong =p

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>yea people cry for ease .. they get it.  To change it back would bring an uproar.. not to mention SoE would be admitting they were wrong =p<hr></blockquote>the only thing SOE would have to admit is that they changed the game to max subscriber numbers - not for the first and certainly not for the last time.

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div><div></div>Do you know how many people want SWG back the way it was before NGE?? Guess what it's not gonna happen in SWG. <font color="#ffcc00">If they change things in this game back to the way they were then I want the version of SWG I enjoyed back too. After all that's only fair isn't it?</font><hr></blockquote><p>i always wondered where all those in-game griefers come from when everyone on the forums is such a nice guy/ga....... but you're the perfect example of someone with the <font color="#ffcc00">if-i-cant-have-it-no-one-should-have-it</font> attitude and finally someone admitted it to be :smileytongue:</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow you're so clueless. I gave that as an example of if you don't like what SOE has done to the game then find a new game. I didn't like what SOE did to SWG so I quit playing it. I like the changes thus far for EQ2. If they change it to something I don't like, guess what I'll find something else to play.</p><p>SOE has made more money with the changes they've done by removing shard runs and high xp debt penalties. They however didn't think the NGE all the way through and lost money on that game.You win some you lose some. SOE knows the majority of people like the removal of massive xp debt and shard runs. The "majority" rules and SOE finally realized that in this game after the NGE debacle in SWG. They finally stopped listening to the idiots who have nothing better than to ruin a good game by [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing the most because something isn't to their "minority" wishes.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div><blockquote>The "majority" rules and SOE finally realized that in this game after the NGE debacle in SWG.<hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>but that doesnt mean i have to like it and that I might not say its complete [ninja bot etc]</p><p> </p>

[Suraklin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Many of you have expressed your concerns with the changes we've made to the death mechanic in Live Update #17. We understand and appreciate your concerns, and would like to let you know what lead us to this decision.What started out as a response to a valid Customer Service concern evolved into more. We called into question the kinds of things that death in EQII really needs to mean and what its purpose it is. We do understand and realize that players want to maintain the feeling of challenge in EverQuest II and are wary of any changes that they perceive make the game easier.We work hard to balance the goals of reducing the barriers for new players while not trivializing the game for experienced ones. With that in mind, a death penalty do a few things.It must be strong enough to communicate that you...... have failed at your current task.... must stop what you're doing for a couple minutes.... must pay some amount of penance to make up for this, but not an unreasonable one since not all deaths are your fault.However, it should not be so trivial as to make you...... use it as transportation.... take unreasonable risks because you feel there is no penalty at all.Our focus is to make the fundamentals of the game easy to understand and experience while keeping the challenge in the deeper portions of the game. With that and the above points in mind, we felt that repair and experience debt alone are likely enough to accomplish our purposes, without the additional complication or potential tedium and frustration wrought from the existence of spirit shards.The unfortunate truth about spirit shards is that death was already without much sting for players who know what they are doing. These same players are smart enough to know that death is, at least, inefficient and is something to be avoided. However, the recovery of spirit shards for an experienced or skilled player was relatively trivial. For less experienced players, however, it is a different story. Players new to the genre or game were often susceptible to frustration when attempting to recover their spirit shards, and would sometimes log out when facing such failures. As you can see, that doesn't seem quite right.From here, we will take a look at how this change plays out and will be tweaking things like the amount of experience debt or durability loss accrued when you die until we have something we feel meets the above goals. Thank you for expressing your concerns in a constructive manner, and I hope you see that in spite of changes like this that simplify certain aspects of the game, we are committed to maintaining a deep and satisfying experience for our dedicated players.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is why they changed it. Very unlikely it will ever go back to the way it was. Won't ever say never be changed back. This is their reasoning behind the change though.</div>

[FreaklyCreak]

<div></div><p>Complexity?</p><p>I still see tons of it. Ever try to teach people how to raid that have never played EQ1, EQ2, or any MMORPG? And for that matter I am learning myself. I still don't know all the tactics and rules yet either.</p><p>Some really hard things to learn are learning how to adapt to changes in the game. Learning how new zones, expansions and quests work. Some quests are so extreamly diffrent that It can be confusing to people who havn't played since launch.</p><p>I think one of the above replies was correct(Paraphrase):Over time you learn the game and to your self the game becomes less complex.</p>

[wulfgarthegreat]

<div></div>as for complexity you ever try planes of sky in dof or the dijnn master or gates? Gates for needing to implement crafting into raid(wich i loved)  or the prismatic 2 quest? I could go on for pages.  Just becuase you haven't discovered things doesn't mean its not complex.  As for debt who cares you never lost a lvl as far as i can remember from dieing all it did was slow you down even more.  And any game after you have played it for a year is going to seem easy unless the completly redo the game dynamics every 3 to 6 months. well done with my rant for now

[retro_guy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Many of you have expressed your concerns with the changes we've made to the death mechanic in Live Update #17. We understand and appreciate your concerns, and would like to let you know what lead us to this decision.What started out as a response to a valid Customer Service concern evolved into more. We called into question the kinds of things that death in EQII really needs to mean and what its purpose it is. We do understand and realize that players want to maintain the feeling of challenge in EverQuest II and are wary of any changes that they perceive make the game easier.We work hard to balance the goals of reducing the barriers for new players while not trivializing the game for experienced ones. With that in mind, a death penalty do a few things.It must be strong enough to communicate that you...... have failed at your current task.... must stop what you're doing for a couple minutes.... must pay some amount of penance to make up for this, but not an unreasonable one since not all deaths are your fault.However, it should not be so trivial as to make you...<font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">... use it as transportation.</font>... take unreasonable risks because you feel there is no penalty at all.Our focus is to make the fundamentals of the game easy to understand and experience while keeping the challenge in the deeper portions of the game. With that and the above points in mind, we felt that repair and experience debt alone are likely enough to accomplish our purposes, without the additional complication or potential tedium and frustration wrought from the existence of spirit shards.The unfortunate truth about spirit shards is that death was already without much sting for players who know what they are doing. These same players are smart enough to know that death is, at least, inefficient and is something to be avoided. However, the recovery of spirit shards for an experienced or skilled player was relatively trivial. For less experienced players, however, it is a different story. Players new to the genre or game were often susceptible to frustration when attempting to recover their spirit shards, and would sometimes log out when facing such failures. As you can see, that doesn't seem quite right.From here, we will take a look at how this change plays out and will be tweaking things like the amount of experience debt or durability loss accrued when you die until we have something we feel meets the above goals. Thank you for expressing your concerns in a constructive manner, and I hope you see that in spite of changes like this that simplify certain aspects of the game, we are committed to maintaining a deep and satisfying experience for our dedicated players.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is why they changed it. Very unlikely it will ever go back to the way it was. Won't ever say never be changed back. This is their reasoning behind the change though.</div><hr><font color="#ffff00">They might have missed the boat on that on, the "lava evac" is a great way to speed up things when in SE or Lavastorm, same in the far reaches of Everfrost, just jump off a cliff.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">There is no penalty of death anymore, only inconvenience, and a tiny repair bill - I make enough money in 1 day to pay my repair bills for a year.</font></blockquote></span></div>

[klepp]

<div></div>yea GL w/ the complexity, for every person who plays as a hobby and wants some challenge and sense of accomplishment, their are 10 more that are straight from final fantasy 3 that expect to be able to work full time, go out with friends, take care of their kids, and still have as much as the dropout who sits in his parents basement from 5am till 2am playing every day.   Oh wtg further dumbing down tradeskills by taking out all subcombines!   way to make eq2 more original.  Nm you nixed that already by taking out interdpenedancies.

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>Complex does not mean good. SWG before the NGE and CU was hands down the most complicated MMO in the genre. A lot of stuff didn't make sense, you had to spend hours and hours looking at every single stat of any piece of equipment trying to see if it actually was better or not. The whole life bar set up added nothing to the game. However, it was hands down the easiest MMO. Just set up a macro, stand next to the easiest mob group, and come back in 12 hours. The game was extremely poorly balanced, to the point some classes had no real use in the end, while others were pretty much worth an entire group of players. Not to mention several classes solely functioned by just making one skill their auto-attack and doing nothing else, but that one skill. Sure there was a lot of complexity to everything, but for several classes the entire combat session involved clicking your auto-skill once.</p><p>Besides EQ2 is not remotely the same point of WoW for simplicity.</p><p>How to play a Paladin in WoW:</p><p>Every 15 seconds recast your 15 second seal.</p><p>If health is low, cast healing spell.</p><p>If you are about to die, cast invincibility spell and run away or use Lay on Hands.</p><p>That is it. The only other thing is you need to recast your 5 minute buff every 5 minutes, but that is comparitively less often. I'm not trying to bad mouth WoW or anything and some of the other classes are slightly more involving. However, your skills are usually just as good as any other player the same level and class. There is a long way to go before EQ2 is remotely that simplistic though.</p><p>Also most of the "dumbed down" stuff seems to be removing tedium. Taking out access quests don't make the zones any less difficult, and considering how easy most of the access quests are, it isn't a huge loss not doing them. Removing the archeype and class system didn't dumb it down. Making buffs toggles didn't dumb it down since recasting them took no actual effort anyways. Adding stances actually added a dynamic to many classes that made choosing the right stance in certain situations not as obvious, especially when soloing, where both offensive and defensive stances have merit.</p>

[Sslarrga]

<div>The one thing I wish they'd bring in from original EQ Live...  Massive XP loss.</div><div> </div><div>As it is, there's a ton of level 70's that are either too lazy or don't have a clue as to how to avoid dying.  How to avoid aggroing mobs.  How to avoid wiping a group.  How to avoid grabbing adds.  How not to break mez.  How to work as a team.  How work TOGETHER with out classes that complement your class.  How to NOT use death as a means of evac.  How to avoid going afk every freaking 5 minutes.</div><div> </div><div>Did I mention that noone particularly TRIES to avoid death anymore?  At least some zones had it right for a while.  You die you revive out of zone.  LEARN HOW TO NOT DIE.</div><div> </div><div>As ridiculously easy as EQ2 is.  It isn't very hard to learn how NOT to die.  Then again, as time goes by EQ2 caters more and more to lazy people and stupid people.</div><div> </div><div>HoF is the only thing even remotely challenging left in the game for non-raiders.  Oh wait, nevermind.  You can revive in zone.  It's a piece of cake also.</div><div> </div><div>Other than raiding...there...is...no...sense...of...accomplis hing anything even remotely heroic against "supposedly" heroic encounters.</div><div> </div><div>Thank god at least the quests are still interesting.  Thank god the raid content is still somewhat challenging.  Other than friends, that's the only reasons left to play the game.</div><div> </div><div>There is no more any, "WOOOOOO, I can't believe we just pulled that off in the face of impossible odds" feeling in the game.</div><div> </div><div>Rather it's now, "Oh, we're going after X named now?  Hold on let me strip and die to evac to the zone so we can get to it faster."</div><div> </div><div>Or, "Oh we wiped again because clueless person #135897345 didn't now how to avoid aggroing adds?  No problem we need the XP anyways, and this will make it easier to get to named mob #23490."</div><div> </div><div>Yeah, EQ2 at this point is more of a joke than anything that you need to really think about.</div><div> </div><div>Regards,</div><div>Croaker</div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sslarrga wrote:<div>The one thing I wish they'd bring in from original EQ Live...  Massive XP loss.</div><div> </div><div>As it is, there's a ton of level 70's that are either too lazy or don't have a clue as to how to avoid dying.  How to avoid aggroing mobs.  How to avoid wiping a group.  How to avoid grabbing adds.  How not to break mez.  How to work as a team.  How work TOGETHER with out classes that complement your class.  How to NOT use death as a means of evac.  How to avoid going afk every freaking 5 minutes.</div><div> </div><div>Did I mention that noone particularly TRIES to avoid death anymore?  At least some zones had it right for a while.  You die you revive out of zone.  LEARN HOW TO NOT DIE.</div><div> </div><div>As ridiculously easy as EQ2 is.  It isn't very hard to learn how NOT to die.  Then again, as time goes by EQ2 caters more and more to lazy people and stupid people.</div><div> </div><div>HoF is the only thing even remotely challenging left in the game for non-raiders.  Oh wait, nevermind.  You can revive in zone.  It's a piece of cake also.</div><div> </div><div>Other than raiding...there...is...no...sense...of...accomplis hing anything even remotely heroic against "supposedly" heroic encounters.</div><div> </div><div>Thank god at least the quests are still interesting.  Thank god the raid content is still somewhat challenging.  Other than friends, that's the only reasons left to play the game.</div><div> </div><div>There is no more any, "WOOOOOO, I can't believe we just pulled that off in the face of impossible odds" feeling in the game.</div><div> </div><div>Rather it's now, "Oh, we're going after X named now?  Hold on let me strip and die to evac to the zone so we can get to it faster."</div><div> </div><div>Or, "Oh we wiped again because clueless person #135897345 didn't now how to avoid aggroing adds?  No problem we need the XP anyways, and this will make it easier to get to named mob #23490."</div><div> </div><div>Yeah, EQ2 at this point is more of a joke than anything that you need to really think about.</div><div> </div><div>Regards,</div><div>Croaker</div><hr></blockquote><p>I guess that we are playing a different game then since I've rarely encountered what you are talking about here.  And yes I group with quite a few people including pickup groups who have been awesome.   People still avoid death and avoid being the incompetent player in the group.  There is that thing called "pride."   Incompetent or lazy people tend to get booted from groups and quickly earn themselves a bad rep.    For example, I was in a great pickup group just this afternoon with my hubby.  Our group was doing some really challenging stuff.  At the end of a tough battle, everyone was patting everyone on the back and complementing one another on what a great team we were.  We survived rather slim odds and when we were standing there looking at that hard won master chest, it was a pretty darned good feeling.  You see, most people like feeling that sense of teamwork and take pride in a battle fought well---death penalty or no death penalty.   There is still plenty of challenge left in the game, you need to look for it.</p><p>I think that for some of you bitter people, you really need a break from EQ2.  If you think the game is such a joke, then who is the idiot for shelling out money on a product that you really don't enjoy?  If the game isn't fun, go do something else that is fun for you. </p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>I think that for some of you bitter people, you really need a break from EQ2.  If you think the game is such a joke, then who is the idiot for shelling out money on a product that you really don't enjoy?  If the game isn't fun, go do something else that is fun for you. </p><hr></blockquote><p>yeah, and while your at it......</p><p>- quit work if you dont like it that much</p><p>- leave your partner if the last weekend wasn't full of harmony</p><p>- dump everything that needs a repair instead of <em>have</em> it repaired</p><p> </p><p>......but DONT argue about whats important for you or hope for a change you believe is necessary</p><p>great advice, really @Floria</p>

[Flor]

<div>But Tradeskill, this is a hobby.  What you cite are real life examples (quitting a job or leaving a partner) and obviously we don't up and quit things that have a bit more impact than a video game?    I just don't understand people that are so bitter (like you), constantly come to the boards and gripe and seem so unhappy with the game in current state.  When I become so bitter and disillusioned with a product, I move on until the product either gets better or I find something else to do.   Calling a game a "joke" or a game for "idiots" rankles me and I am left wondering what the person is even still playing if they hate the game so passionately........why be miserable?</div><div> </div><div>I was bitterly disappointed in EQ2 when it first came out.  I simply canceled my subscription and moved onto something more fun until EQ2 became more fun.  If it becomes "unfun,"  I simply move on.  </div>

[Terabethia]

<blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>I think that for some of you bitter people, you really need a break from EQ2.  If you think the game is such a joke, then who is the idiot for shelling out money on a product that you really don't enjoy?  If the game isn't fun, go do something else that is fun for you. </p><hr></blockquote><p>yeah, and while your at it......</p><p>- quit work if you dont like it that much</p><p>- leave your partner if the last weekend wasn't full of harmony</p><p>- dump everything that needs a repair instead of <em>have</em> it repaired</p><p> </p><p>......but DONT argue about whats important for you or hope for a change you believe is necessary</p><p>great advice, really @Floria</p><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#33ccff">Wow, exaggerate much? First off, you are comparing two COMPLETELY different things. You set of ideas are very important RL decisions. If you feel that EQ2 is comparable to that, then you really should have quit long ago. However, that said, I will respond to each idea<span class="076231714-20032006">, since if you actually make each of those ideas equal to the misery you experience in the current EQ, you can see the basis for the argument</span>.</font></div><div><font color="#33ccff"></font> </div><div><font color="#33ccff"><span class="076231714-20032006">- </span>If you hate your RL job, a normal person would start looking for another.<span class="076231714-20032006"> They may not quit until they find something else, but ye</span>s, they usually do quit if they just plain hate it. </font></div><div><font color="#33ccff"><span class="076231714-20032006">- </span>If your partner is a jerk and you can't stand the way they have acted for the last several months, yes, dump them and find someone else.<span class="076231714-20032006"> People change, just as games do. </span><span class="076231714-20032006">So as it relates to EQ, you have been miserable for months (since they removed shared debt, shards, so on etc) you should dump the game and find another.</span></font></div><div><span class="076231714-20032006"><font color="#33ccff">- If you have something that is broke, and it is easier/cheaper/whatever to replace it than to fix it, yes, REPLACE it! Especially if you have no control of making the repair. If  I have an old clunker of a car that's worth $500, but it would cost me $1000 to repair plus the headache and frustration of dealing with it, I would just buy a new one. End the end, it's the best. </font></span></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>so if you want lets get personal <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>my highest adv toons are lvl 31 and 21</div><div>my highest TS are 46 and 43</div><div> </div><div>and all that bugs me is the joke of a death penalty.</div><div> </div><div>search all my post - since i came back after a 1 year break i didnt critisise ANYTHING regarding gameplay.</div><div> </div><div>class nerfs, spell nerfs, ability nerfs, TS changes, loot changes, sever merges, PvP, mentoring, grey aggro, what ever - I DONT CARE!</div><div> </div><div>Its only a game, you know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>so compared to all the crybabies who post a "I QUIT" thread everytime they loose 1% of dps (or similar) I have a very relaxed attitude towards EQ2. and since its only the lame death penalty I despise its close to a perfect mmorpg for me - in fact closer than for most posters on the "gameplay board" :smileyvery-happy: but since the game allready came VERY close to being perfect for me before they changed the death penalty I wont stop working on getting it back.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS: reagarding this "thats RL and this is only a game BS": I spend about 10 hours a week playing boardgames/rpgs with my RL friends. I dont like to play crappy games and if some mechanic from a good game sucks we try to tweak it for the better. If i spend another 10 hours a week on an mmorpg why should I care less?????</div><div> </div><div>but one thing is sure. people who just turn their back on an mmorpg because there ae one or two things they dont like - instead of trying their best to have repaired whats wrong in their opinion.......have an ATTITUDE of acting that way. from the game to the job to the partner to their life.</div><div> </div><div>the character of a person doesn't suddenly change for the better or worse the moment one turns the pc off and says hello to the friends. the character stays the same and so does the way of the person to deal with problems.</div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Tradeskill, you and I probably agree on about 99% of the game except the death penalty and the definition of risk.  My big beef is with people (not necessarily you but at poster like the one I responded to before you responded to me) who like to be dramatic and bash EQ2 on almost every aspect of game play.  Some posters liken the changes being made to EQ2 to the "end of the world," crying that the game is being WoWified or catering to the inept.  And I'm getting tired of it thus prompting my responses on the feedback threads.  My point to people so bitter about the game is to find something else to play until the game becomes fun again for them.</p><p>I am not totally happy with some of the changes to the game.  But until I am so unhappy and resenting my time in the game, I've learned to live with them.  I've tried to offer constructive feedback to the developers and then move on.  But to bash a game and make it sound like the end of the world (like some posters do) usually prompts a response from me.</p><p>And on the real life analogies, these MMORPGs are complex things.  There are many real life friendships formed and the game becomes a community of sorts of many people.  I agree with you that your personality in game also can parallel what kind of person you could be in real life.  But when it all comes down to the end, this is entertainment.  If bitterness over a game or ingame activities starts impacting on your real life, I think the person needs to do some reassessing of their priorities.  Not saying that this applies to you.  But for some people, they are so darned bitter about the game that I start to wonder.....:smileysad:</p>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheOneWolf wrote:<div>Yea another one of these, Well, i've been seeing Eq2 being dumbed down to WoW's lvl, which is good in its own way, but we dont have some sort of "Complexity" any more to the game. Just about everything, since release, lost most to all its "hardness" and ....<hr></div></blockquote><p><span>Common misconception of a veteran player.  If you were a noob you whouldn't think any of this.  </span></p><p><span>The problem lies in you, and your own adaptations to the game.  The game appears easier to you and me and us, because we know it...what needs to happen is not to have them stop what they are doing but to also start doing more different things that will challenge us in new ways.</span></p>

[Karlen]

>>>Right, and what more subscriber would bring into that game?<<<Having more subscribers brings something very important to the game -- revenues.  The more people that pay $15-20 per month (or whatever the monthly fee is), the more money they have to spend on development and maintenance.  If there are no subscribers, there is no money for development and the game would have to close.So I want as many subscribers as possible, regardless of whether these new subscribers want to group with me or not. Actually I am one of those annoying subscribers that likes to solo most of the time....<div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheOneWolf wrote:<div>Yea another one of these, Well, i've been seeing Eq2 being dumbed down to WoW's lvl, which is good in its own way, but we dont have some sort of "Complexity" any more to the game. Just about everything, since release, lost most to all its "hardness" and ....<hr></div></blockquote><p><span>Common misconception of a veteran player.  If you were a noob you whouldn't think any of this.  </span></p><hr></blockquote><p>you obviously havent been on the newbie islands for some months.</p><p>in /ooc you can read all the time <em>"there is no death stuff while i am on the on the island, right?"</em> or <em>"do you loose xp only after lvl 10?"</em> from the noobs. so they learn about the complexity really fast i guess:smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:</p><p>you obviously havent been on the newbie islands for some months.</p><p>in /ooc you can read all the time <em>"there is no death stuff while i am on the on the island, right?"</em> or <em>"do you loose xp only after lvl 10?"</em> from the noobs. so they learn about the complexity really fast i guess:smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote><p>I have been on Noob Isle recently and this is how I know the game is difficult and challenging to a noob. </p><p>My wife has never touched an MMO before much less any type of computer games (other than solitare) and she says it's a hard game to understand and play...it moves to fast for her and she has a hard time adapting to the game.  She also says it's confusing. </p><p>When I watch her play ( while bitting my toung, the entire time ) I can totally understand why she says all of that stuff.  I am seeing this game played by a complete noob and it sure as heck looks hard.</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div>^^^</div><div> </div><div>Agree with you completely Geekyone.  For a new player, the game is overwhelming.  My hubby's coworker just started playing.  He just dinged level 9 or 10 and this is a huge accomplishment for him.  He is completely lost and desperately trying to learn the complexities of EQ2.  MMORPGs are a new thing for him and it's overwhelming.  Heck, even an experienced MMORPG player coming into EQ2 has a rather steep learning curve.   I had a houseguest this weekend as was trying to explain a MMORPG to her.  It was incomphrensible to her, even after watching me play for an hour or two.  I can't even imagine her starting it from scratch and seeing her try to figure it out.....shudders......:smileyhappy:</div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><div><p><span>Yes it was the most excruciated thing I've done.  Trying to watch a complete noob (my wife bless her soul) try to do the controls and all the other stuff.   So many times I just wanted to push her out of the way and do it all myself.   There is ALOT we (veterans) take for granted that someone new has a really hard time with.</span><span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>A MMO virgin might shoot themselves in the head trying to figure out everything about EQ2.</span></p></div>

[electricninjasex]

<span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">There is no penalty of death anymore, only inconvenience, and a tiny repair bill - I make enough money in 1 day to pay my repair bills for a year.</font></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote>Well at least I know what kind of gear you wear.</span><div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>electricninjasex wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">There is no penalty of death anymore, only inconvenience, and a tiny repair bill - I make enough money in 1 day to pay my repair bills for a year.</font></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote>Well at least I know what kind of gear you wear.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>if you mean he's wearing crap gear......than it looks like even with crap gear one doesn't need  to worry :smileyvery-happy:

[Poetelia]

<div></div><p>Sincerely, Ive never seen so many rivers of posts made over such a small intrascendent issue from my humble point of view.</p><p>The lack of shards hasnt made the game easier and, certainly, it hasnt changed the game so dramatically as some people want us to think. For an old EQ1 player like myself, the shard itself was a very small thing compared to our good ole infamous corpse runs (/ooc Please I need  a SoW for cr, I WILL DONATE!, <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p><p>I have not tried anything in the game I wouldnt have if shards still existed. The fact of dying is, for me, penalty enough, and sometimes, in deep dungeons, a harsh thing indeed, since all the work is lost.</p><p>But obviously, a lot of people dont feel like me. I think this is soooo small a thing, not worth all the flush by far. So, ok, I lift my voice with you guys:</p><p><strong>Please bring the shards back!!</strong> For me its absolutely trivial, so if its so important for such a big chunk of the community, by all means, have them back. Bring back this big challenge again :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I wish all the problems of this game could be answered by so easy a measure.</p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

[tastish]

<div><div>One good example of a game that has retained their original focus is Final Fantasy IX. Very few core changes have ever been made regardless of the amount of crying from weak minded players. The bottom line for EQ2 is subscription numbers. This is apparent by looking at decisions made by a weak management team at SOE that, in my opinion was not a true gaming team. The majority of changes made to EQ2 scream of desperate attempts to both generate new members as well as maintain existing member that are of the mentality of those kinds of players that prefer cheat codes that give them invincibility. The way I see the development team of FFXI vs EQ2 is that FFXI made the game they envisioned and stayed true to what they KNEW was a sucessful layout, as well as a far reaching vision of where the game would be in 5 years and beyond. EQ2 on the other hand seemed lost from the very beginning. An example of this was the complete revamping of the crafting system days prior to the release of the game. EQ2 ability to envision the game years out and maintain that vision seems to have come from a group of people more concerend about the money first and game play second, a very very short sighted focus that was destined to do more damage than good. FFXI is a very complex game that has had its share of complaining players that wanted similar changes made that would make the game easier. The reputation that FFXI has built over time is one of integrity to the game itself, whereas the reputation that EQ2 has built is one that listens too much to complaining players and has tried to make everyone happy, thus constantly changing the game. The game that was originally envisioned by brilliant people who know what they want the game to be and know what the game should become should never be asked to make such drastic changes that ultimately change the entire vision just to try to please a player base.</div><div> </div><div>H</div></div>

[Karlen]

>>>The lack of shards hasnt made the game easier and, certainly, it hasnt changed the game so dramatically as some people want us to think.<<<The only place that it has made life easier is for soloing, and not having shards does help there.  Generally speaking, when I died I would leave a shard somewhere near the mob that killed me.  That mob is still there guarding my shard.   It might be somewhere hard to get to, causing me to die again.  It usually wasn't worth it for me to go and get my shard if it was anywhere dangerous as I would end up leaving 3-4 more shards in the process of trying to get it back.When I die, I still need to revive and run back to wherever I was fighting.  The only difference now is that if I died where I was over my head, I can now say "Oh well." and just go somewhere else, rather than spending the rest of the night digging myself into a bigger hole.At least with shards, we didn't lose any items or anything, so simply ignoring it and waiting for it to go away was an option, especially for someone that doesn't play a lot.<div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Zotar99 wrote:</p><p>The only place that it has made life easier is for soloing, and not having shards does help there.  Generally speaking, when I died I would leave a shard somewhere near the mob that killed me.  That mob is still there guarding my shard.   It might be somewhere hard to get to, causing me to die again.  It usually wasn't worth it for me to go and get my shard if it was anywhere dangerous as I would end up leaving 3-4 more shards in the process of trying to get it back.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>dont take it personal please....... but generally speaking one must be quite [insert whatever you think I wanted to say] to be unable for 3 tries in a row  to run away far enough so that shard recovery would be managable without further eating [you know]</p><p>or one was visiting a place or mob which wasnt appropriate - but thats exactly what death penalty is for <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:35 PM</span></p>

[Maroger]

<div></div><p>I am amazed that all of you people keep playing a game you feel has been "dumbed" down and made too easy because the management team has given in to whiners!!!</p><p>Surely you should be playing EQ1 - where you can really lose XP when you die!!! I never played FFXI but I heard it was a totally boring game!!</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>And i wonder why the spoiled brats still play that use up 90% forum space to whine about their character nerf, equipment nerf, loot nerf, etc. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Bort]

<div>I personally liked the changes to the death penalties. I don't like dying no matter if there was a penalty or not, it means I've failed and I know it and everyone around me knows it. To add things like shard recovery (which you could just ignore) and large amount of exp debt because a group member did something stupid was unnecessary (for me!). Even with the way death is now I still don't like dying or having to throw myself at a mod forever until I win. You should have played Eq1 you would understand complex and harsh death penalties. You lost exp and you had to recover your corpse if you didn't you lost everything on it. If you bound yourself in a dangerous place and went afk for some silly reason you could delevel (I watched some guy in High Hold pass lose 5 levels because he bound himself near the orcs at the Kith entrance).</div><div> </div><div>If you want thrill, excitment, and whatnot I suggest looking into playing PvP rather than PvE. Not only do you die if you are not paying attention, you can lose and item and a percentage of your cash on hand. No where is safe!</div><div> </div><div>As far as dumbing down tradeskills by removing subcombines, this is my opinion, but I think anyone who enjoyed the amount of subcombines needed to make certain items must enjoy pain or have no life and can spend any amount of time they want time sinking.</div><div> </div><div>Just my 2 copper.</div><div> </div><div>Niobe</div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bortas wrote:<div> I don't like dying no matter if there was a penalty or not, it means I've failed and I know it and everyone around me knows it.</div><hr></blockquote><p>An awfull lot of people see it that way.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">but to claim to have that mature "I know how I performed" attitude is nothing but a big pile of dino dung.</font></p><p><font size="3"><strong><font color="#ff3300">you say <font color="#ff9900">death=failure</font> and you need <font color="#ff9900">no reminder</font>????</font></strong></font><font color="#ff3300"><font size="3"><strong>I say FINE!!!!!but if you kill the <font color="#ff9900">mob=success</font> its suddenly over with that attitude - because of course you <font color="#ff9900">NEED a reminder in form of BIG FAT LOOT</font></strong></font></font></p><p><font size="4" color="#ff9900">the only "attitude" you guys have if is "GIMME but PLEAZE don't take"</font></p><p>I guess even <strong><font color="#ff9900">Garfield</font> </strong>will finally be attracted to EQ2........</p>

[Bort]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bortas wrote:<div> I don't like dying no matter if there was a penalty or not, it means I've failed and I know it and everyone around me knows it.</div><hr></blockquote><p>An awfull lot of people see it that way.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">but to claim to have that mature "I know how I performed" attitude is nothing but a big pile of dino dung.</font></p><p><font size="3"><strong><font color="#ff3300">you say <font color="#ff9900">death=failure</font> and you need <font color="#ff9900">no reminder</font>????</font></strong></font><font color="#ff3300"><font size="3"><strong>I say FINE!!!!!but if you kill the <font color="#ff9900">mob=success</font> its suddenly over with that attitude - because of course you <font color="#ff9900">NEED a reminder in form of BIG FAT LOOT</font></strong></font></font></p><p><font size="4" color="#ff9900">the only "attitude" you guys have if is "GIMME but PLEAZE don't take"</font></p><p>I guess even <strong><font color="#ff9900">Garfield</font> </strong>will finally be attracted to EQ2........</p><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>Please don't pretend to know who I am or what my "attitude" is. For your information I'm not some teenie booper playing this game, I'm an adult with a family. I'm no loot [Removed for Content], and I don't have a gimmie but please don't take attitude.</p><p>And if you are so [Removed for Content] off about the game why not just leave it?</p></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p>

[Bhagpuss]

I have played EQ2 since Beta in September '04.I gave up on the game in April '05, not because it was too complex, difficult or challenging but because it was unmitigatedly, teeth-grindingly <b><i>DULL</i></b>. I have played many MMORPGs, including all the well-known ones except for WoW, and I have never played one that was as out-and-out tedious as EQ2.Combat was utterly unchallenging in a group or solo, although soloing was worse because that was unchallenging and slow while grouping was unchallenging and fast. It rarely mattered what spells you cast, whether you used HOs, or what equipment you wore. Tactics were non-existent - I had a guild leader who played an Illusionist and he eventually quit in frustration because by the time he'd mezzed one mob in an encounter the group would have zerged the rest and pulled again. The biggest threat to your progress came from the shared xp debt you'd incur when people died trying to get to the group, and again (and again) trying to get to their shards. Once the group finally got going you could kill reds deep in a dungeon for hour after hour after hour with no downtime and no risk and no deaths (and we did until the blood ran out of our fingertips).Questing largely centred on everyone running around in a big gang killing this that and the other while the group gradually fragmented as people cleared their journals and left.The creature populations in all zones were stolid, obvious and usually immobile. The forced locked encounter system made every fight seem like a nano-instance.Tradeskills involved a quite unbelievable level of finicketty, fiddly and above all repetetive busy-work, made even more irritating by the ridiculous addition of a Russian Roulette version of Simon.Nowadays combat is much better tuned and far more intereting (although still the weakest feature of the game). The upcoming tradeskill system is simple, clean and satisfying (as a Provisioner I may be a tad biased on that), the zones and their populations are improved out of all recognition, and the quests are exemplary.Almost all the changes since the big combat revamp have been improvements, some of them huge improvements. The game is now smooth, clear and very entertaining. It has variety, depth and, yes, complexity. Almost everything that has been removed was clutter and the game is much the better without it all. There's a lot left to do, but at least now it does seem that the Dev team has a good idea of what makes for long-lasting, involving gameplay rather than muddle and complication for the sake of it.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bortas wrote:<div></div><p>And if you are so [Removed for Content] off about the game why not just leave it?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>1. I bought the game and leveld my first characters to 25 when there still was <font color="#ffcc00">risk vs reward</font> instead of <font color="#ffcc00">effort vs reward. </font>its the<font color="#ffcc00"> </font>the game that changed for the worse not my pov - and my time is allready spent as is my money.</p><p>2. I am merly [Removed for Content] off about players claiming <font color="#ffcc00">death is a penalty in itself</font> while <font color="#ffcc00">everyone expect a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of additional rewards for every green they kill.</font></p>

[zit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bortas wrote:<div></div><p>And if you are so [Removed for Content] off about the game why not just leave it?</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>1. I bought the game and leveld my first characters to 25 when there still was <font color="#ffcc00">risk vs reward</font> instead of <font color="#ffcc00">effort vs reward. </font>its the<font color="#ffcc00"> </font>the game that changed for the worse not my pov - and my time is allready spent as is my money.</p><p>2. I am merly [Removed for Content] off about players claiming <font color="#ffcc00">death is a penalty in itself</font> while <font color="#ffcc00">everyone expect a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of additional rewards for every green they kill.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p>you bought the game when there was still risk vs. reward?</p><p>what risk pls? that it took you 15 mins instead of 5 to get rid of the xp debt? what a challenge...</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>zitha wrote:<div></div><p>what risk pls? that it took you 15 mins instead of 5 to get rid of the xp debt? what a challenge...</p><hr></blockquote><p>you might have noticed (or rather not) that <font color="#ffcc00">risk vs reward</font> is a phrase commonly used by the devs.</p><p>so if in your opinion with the <font color="#ffcc00">old death penalty there was no risk involved</font><em> (in soloing a red heroic mob p.e</em>.) then PLEASE tell me <font color="#ffcc00">where was any risk involved then</font>?</p><p><em></em> </p>

[Dasein]

<div></div><p>Risk versus reward makes little sense as the material risks are the same fighting a raid mob and fighting a solo mob. The death penalty doesn't change based on the strength of the mob, yet the reward does. So, evidently, the risk quanta is not the death penalty, as the death penalty is static while risk versus reward is dynamic.</p>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote>2. I am merly [Removed for Content] off about players claiming <font color="#ffcc00">death is a penalty in itself</font> while <font color="#ffcc00">everyone expect a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of additional rewards for every green they kill.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>While I generally agree to disagree with Addict, I agree to agree with him here.  I can't tell you how loud I want to shout B%LLS&*T when I hear someone say..."I know I failed when I died, it makes me feel bad enough."  Paaleezz

[Bort]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote>2. I am merly [Removed for Content] off about players claiming <font color="#ffcc00">death is a penalty in itself</font> while <font color="#ffcc00">everyone expect a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of additional rewards for every green they kill.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>While I generally agree to disagree with Addict, I agree to agree with him here.  I can't tell you how loud I want to shout B%LLS&*T when I hear someone say..."I know I failed when I died, it makes me feel bad enough."  Paaleezz<hr></blockquote><p>Again please don't pretend to know who I am and what I really feel when I die in game. I'm not some teenage boy playing some shoot them up game. I'm a woman and we react a bit differently when we die in game. I really don't like dying whatever the penalty is. Period.</p><p>And STOP lumping people who claim that death is a penalty in itself and those who are LOOT [Removed for Content] together!</p><p>Niobe</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote>2. I am merly [Removed for Content] off about players claiming <font color="#ffcc00">death is a penalty in itself</font> while <font color="#ffcc00">everyone expect a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of additional rewards for every green they kill.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">While I generally agree to disagree with Addict, I agree to agree with him here.  I can't tell you how loud I want to shout B%LLS&*T when I hear someone say..."I know I failed when I died, it makes me feel bad enough."  Paaleezz</font><hr></blockquote><p>I see this topic is still going strong after many days...:smileywink:</p><p>But to respond to your last statement Geekyone and perhaps it's just me that feels this way but I feel very badly when I die or let others in my group die (I'm currently playing a healer).  Any healer, tank, etc can feel very badly if, by their actions, the group dies.  If I'm not paying attention, it can only take a moment for a group member to go down.  Or for that tank to get sloppy and miss a taunt, or the the DPS folks to overnuke.  You see, it comes back to that thing called <strong><u>pride</u></strong>.  Death makes me always feel badly because the team failed.  Our regular group works together really well as a team.  Each and every death makes us kinda shake our heads and want to do better.  Death stings from that <strong><u>pride</u></strong> perspective.  No one wants to be the bozo who caused the group wipe.  Even though there are no shard runs, we still adventure very carefully and try to avoid death at all costs.  From what I'm gathering here on these boards, there are many of you who don't really care if your group wipes or not.   I personally would be embarrassed if I was the person causing the group wipes or doing stupid things to get the group wiped.  But I guess some players have to have the threat of a shard run to make you play more carefully and add that element of risk to make the game more exciting for you.  I just have to shake my head there but then again, we have have our different opinions of what make a game fun.</p><p>Death still has a punch in the game in certain areas though.  We've been trying to make our way through the Oblisk of Lost Souls.  If you haven't completed the access quest, as you know to get out of the instance, you go thru a portal and poof---you are transported to a random location in the world.  It is really a pain for the group (if there was a group wipe) to reconvene and do it again.  Doesn't take silly shards to make us feel the pain of a group wipe.</p><p>Edit: Agree with Bortas about the loot [Removed for Content] analogy.  Doesn't really have any bearing on this discussion does it?   Many of us adventure to have fun, complete quests, explore new places, etc.  If a great items drops, that's great.  If it doesn't, we've had fun anyway.  Oh, and I'm a woman too in real life.  Perhaps we just have different perspectives on death.  Women tend to take things more personally and want to do our best.....:smileywink:</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:45 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Geekyone]

<div>Yeah, I a girl too, but thats totally beside the point.</div><div> </div><div>I also feel bad when someone dies on me, when I'm playing the healer, I apologize.  And I feel bad when I die, but no so much as to think "I'm not gonna do that again."   Death is not a consequence in this game, it's an inconvenience. </div><div> </div><div>I'm more worried about my lost time than I am about dyeing.  I'll look at a ^^^orange and think, hmm, I'll probably die, so it's really just a waste of time.  But ^^^yellow I know I can't beat, but since death is not the deterant, and the possible reward is far greater than the few minutes I'll lose (since death is moot) I'll try it.</div><div> </div><div>I don't much like shard recovery either, but I preferr it over nothing.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I'm sorry police officer, I feel really bad, I won't speed again.    Boy I sure wish my feelings matter more in that situation.</div>

[Bort]

<div></div><p>I was going to post something but I've decided that I've already wasted a lot of time on a thread that's not going anywhere.</p><p>Niobe</p>

[Etherium]

<div></div>Perhaps the simplest answer for those that want the added challenge is to allow them a switch that returns shard runs just for them and allows them to choose the level of experience debt:  current, 10%, 20%, 50%, 100%, 200%. 

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Etherium wrote:<div></div>Perhaps the simplest answer for those that want the added challenge is to allow them a switch that returns shard runs just for them and <font color="#ffcc00">allows them to choose the level of experience debt:  current, 10%, 20%, 50%, 100%, 200%</font>. <hr></blockquote><p>thats a <font color="#ff3300"><strong>great</strong> </font>idea.</p><p>and those who think the game is more frustrating than challenging get a switch which <font color="#ffcc00">allowes them to choose additional  health/power scaled from +10% to +200 percent.</font></p><p>I mean you're not talking <font color="#ff3300">Bullsh!t</font> here,  but the <font color="#ffcc00">possiblity to scale the difficulty level for everybodies personal taste</font>, <font color="#ff3300">right?</font> :smileytongue:</p>

[Flor]

<div></div>I still vote for the hardcore server actually.  I really think it would solve many of the gripes that people have with the game.  I'm not being sarcastic, I think that SOE could scratch that itch of people looking for more of a challenge.  But of course, it is probably much more complicated and would be hard to implement.  

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>I would immediately delete a toon to give a hardcore server a try.</div><div> </div><div>in EQL there was p.e. a roleplaying preferred server (Firiona Vie) which was "hardcore" in a way that there was only ONE(!) character slot. Not easy for tradeskillers but FV was one of the most populated servers back then (before the great server merge of 2004/2005).</div><div> </div><div>PvP servers are also well populated in EQ2 so a *hardcore* server - even a permadeath could prove succesfull too.</div>