Economy of KOS (Alchemist)

[vachira]

<div>I'm wondering if I am the only who is finding that selling potions/poisons/spells are non-existent with the new update?</div><div> </div><div>We no longer need each other?  I dont need to get bottles from a jeweler, and noone needs us for extracts.  And the ability to make the rare potions are very difficult because it's based on Adept III and it makes one dust which gives you 10 charges.  Prior to that you would get 3 vials with up to 7 charges?</div><div> </div><div>AppIv's are rarely bought because why buy a appiv when half the time you can buy the adept at the same price or even less?</div><div> </div><div>I'm very dissappointed in how the changes are for alchemist.  I think needing each other in some way or another was good for economy.</div><div> </div><div>Calitha</div><div>Illusionist of Alternate Eclipse</div><div>Alchemist</div>

[Magu]

You haven't needed a jeweler for bottles in about a year.Rare potions/poisons have ALWAYS required the byproduct of an adept3, so nothing new there.KoS adepts are way more expensive then your average app4, unless you're one of the fools trying to charge 50g for an app4.You can still sell all the stuff you did before, except extracts. If you only made money from extracts, you weren't doing much before anyway.<div></div>

[Zahmekos]

<span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:Rare potions/poisons have ALWAYS required the byproduct of an adept3, so nothing new there.<hr></blockquote>It was the byproduct of the INK, a small but importent difference. Before I could make inks to get the loam and decide later which spells I wanna make or sell the ink. Now I actually have to make the adept3 to get the loam and can make only ONE rare potions/poisons.</span><div></div>

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Rare potions/poisons have ALWAYS required the byproduct of an adept3, so nothing new there.</font><hr><p>I'm surprised at you, the one that knows everything, not knowing what changes were made in T7...</p><p>In T6 the Ink creation process also created a Loam...  That Loam could then be use to create  either 3 poison vials, or 3 potion bottles...  From there...</p><p>each Poison vial had 7 uses, Each use had 200 procs (for damage poisons)</p><p>Each Potion Bottle also had 7 uses....</p><p>So for T6 the numbers are like this...</p><p>1 Loam = 3 Poison Vials X 7 Uses X 200 Procs = 4200 procs from 1 Loam</p><p>1 Loam = 3 Potion Bottles X 7 Uses = 21 uses from 1 Loam.</p><p>For T7 you get 1 Dust when you make a Adept 3 spell, so T7 is as follows.....</p><p>1 Dust = 10 Poison Vials X 1 Use X 150 Procs = 1500 Procs from 1 Dust</p><p>1 Dust = 10 Potion Bottles X 1 Use = 10 Uses from 1 Dust</p><p> </p><p>Difference between T6 vs T7</p><p>Poisons = 4200 Procs per Loam  Vs.  1500 Procs per Dust  = 66% reduction in procs</p><p>Potions = 21 Uses per Loam  Vs.  10 Uses per Dust = 50% reduction in uses</p><p> </p><p>Shame on you Magus for not knowing what your talking about....</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 68 Assassin  /  Nilla - 66 Alchemist</p>

[Magu]

Uh, I didn't say anything about the number of charges. Rare poisons/potions ALWAYS required the byproduct of a rare combine, that hasn't changed at all, so my point still stands.

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Rare potions/poisons have ALWAYS required the <font size="5"><strong><u>byproduct of an adept3</u></strong></font>, so nothing new there.</font><hr><p></p><hr> <font color="#ffff00">Rare poisons/potions ALWAYS required the <font size="5"><strong><u>byproduct of a rare combine</u></strong></font>, that hasn't changed at all</font><hr><p>There is a big difference... And I notice how you changed your story (yet not all rare combines created Loams, only the first step of making the Ink)....   Creating Adpet 3's in T6 did not create the Loam, the first step in creating the Ink did... </p><p>For T6 you did NOT have to actually make the spell in order to get the Loam, you only had to do the first step of making the Ink</p><p>For T7 you MUST create a Adept 3 in order to get the Dust</p><p>The difference is, In T6 you could create the Ink (or just the 1st step), thus creating the Loam and make what ever potions and poisons you wanted...  Then, as need be, use the Ink to create the Adept 3....  In most cases, the Adept 3's were only created when there was a need for them ( IE someone places an order for a Adept 3), but the Loams were readily available for potion / poison creation...</p><p>In T7 you MUST actually create a Adept 3 spell in order to get the Dust... If you do not have an order for an Adept 3 spell, but do have an order for Potions / Poisons, then you either have to tell the person that you can not create the Potions / Poisons, or you have to create a random Adept 3 (and hope that you can sell it)....</p><p>So, as you can see, there is a difference in how the Loam / Dust is created, and this difference can in fact alter the economic situation of the Alchemist....</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 68 Assassin  /  Nilla - 66 Alchemist</p>

[Amise]

<div></div>Before KoS I made money off Adept IIIs and legendary poisons/potions.  Not really expecting much to change there and it's the same way for most crafters.  The money is in the rares, not the normal stuff.  Most people don't need App IVs, the same way most people don't need handcrafted armor or weapons.Sales are down for me compared to post-DoF but that is at least partly because I server transferred a couple of days prior to the launch of KoS and nobody knows me as a crafter on my new server.  I'm selling a few potions and poisons but as is normally the case the handcrafted ones don't sell that well.It's only two weeks post-launch there's no need to cry about the sky falling just yet.  And while I don't exactly like the fact that yield of legendary potion/poison charges per rare has been pretty much cut in half, I do remember hearing that these items weren't meant to be as widely available as they have been, so I expect that the change in yield is for this reason.As far as the loam vs dust argument goes that won't affect me just because of the way I did/do business.  I rarely made ink prior to actually needing it.  Granted it's going to affect some people negatively but it's one of those situations where you have to suck it up and do things differently cause there is not much chance of these changes being revoked.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:09 AM</span></p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<p>There is a big difference... And I notice how you changed your story (yet not all rare combines created Loams, only the first step of making the Ink)....   Creating Adpet 3's in T6 did not create the Loam, the first step in creating the Ink did...</p><hr></blockquote>Name one other use for a rare ink besides an adept3....well? Anything?IN THE PROCESS of making an adept3, you got the rare loam. It's not like everyone bugged alchemists for ink if it wasn't for a fighter adept3. I'm a sage and I made all the inks myselfIt's the same damned thing, and you know it. Stop trying to nitpick.</span></div>

[Twizzel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>vachira wrote:<div> </div><div>AppIv's are rarely bought because why buy a appiv when half the time you can buy the adept at the same price or even less?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Calitha</div><div>Illusionist of Alternate Eclipse</div><div>Alchemist</div><hr></blockquote>Could just be me, but aren't you allowed to set your own prices?  If you want to sell them, perhaps you should ask lower prices?  When I put stuff on the broker, I search it and set my price a couple up from the lowest price...unless I think all the others are gouging, then I just pick a number I think is realistic or fair.  I have found that you can sell anything if you set the right price...

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Name one other use for a rare ink besides an adept3....well? Anything?IN THE PROCESS of making an adept3, you got the rare loam. It's not like everyone bugged alchemists for ink if it wasn't for a fighter adept3. I'm a sage and I made all the inks myselfIt's the same damned thing, and you know it. Stop trying to nitpick.</font><hr><p>It's not the same thing....  I did not have to create a Adet 3 in order to make potions and poisons....  If I needed to make either potions or poisons I could just make the ink and let that sit until I had a reason to make an Adept 3 spell...</p><p>That option has been removed... Now you MUST create a Adept 3 spell in order to make a potions or poisons.... </p><p>Say I need to make a few poisons...  Hmmm... Which Adept 3 should I make in order to get the Dust??  How long am I going to be stuck with this Adept 3 before I can find a buyer....  Say I make a Guardian lev 67 Adept 3 in order to get the Dust... The next day I have a Bruiser that wants a 64 Adept 3...  Had I been able to just make the Ink, I would not be stuck with a Guardian Adept 3 spell, I would have been able to use the ink to make the Bruiser Adept 3....</p><p>If you wern't so obstinate you might actually see the difference...</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 68 Assassin  /  Nilla 66 Alchemist</p>

[Kenazeer]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Name one other use for a rare ink besides an adept3....well? Anything?IN THE PROCESS of making an adept3, you got the rare loam. It's not like everyone bugged alchemists for ink if it wasn't for a fighter adept3. I'm a sage and I made all the inks myselfIt's the same damned thing, and you know it. Stop trying to nitpick.</font><hr><p>It's not the same thing....  I did not have to create a Adet 3 in order to make potions and poisons....  If I needed to make either potions or poisons I could just make the ink and let that sit until I had a reason to make an Adept 3 spell...</p><p>That option has been removed... Now you MUST create a Adept 3 spell in order to make a potions or poisons.... </p><p>Say I need to make a few poisons...  Hmmm... Which Adept 3 should I make in order to get the Dust??  How long am I going to be stuck with this Adept 3 before I can find a buyer....  Say I make a Guardian lev 67 Adept 3 in order to get the Dust... The next day I have a Bruiser that wants a 64 Adept 3...  Had I been able to just make the Ink, I would not be stuck with a Guardian Adept 3 spell, I would have been able to use the ink to make the Bruiser Adept 3....</p><p><font color="#ffff00">If you wern't so obstinate you might actually see the difference...</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"></font> </p><p>Gwern - 68 Assassin  /  Nilla 66 Alchemist</p><hr></blockquote><div>Magus admit he is wrong? I think I might drop dead from shock. :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div>

[Magu]

I've been wrong on many occasions, but this is not one of them. the rare loams were always generated in the process of making an adept3, the only difference on that is that it changed from a pre-req for ink to the final combine.<div></div>

[Ookami-san]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:I've been wrong on many occasions, but this is not one of them. the rare loams were always generated in the process of making an adept3, the only difference on that is that it changed from a pre-req for ink to the final combine.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Hehe... you WERE wrong and now you are changing your tune.  Before you said:</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:Rare potions/poisons have ALWAYS required the byproduct of an adept3, so nothing new there.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Your first post says it's ALWAYS been the <strong>byproduct of an adept3</strong>, which it has not.  It was the byproduct of INK which COULD be used as an Adept III... or it could (as it has many times) sat as ink in your bank.</p><p>Now, it IS in fact the byproduct of an Adept III and ONLY an Adept III.</p>

[BedlamX]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<p>There is a big difference... And I notice how you changed your story (yet not all rare combines created Loams, only the first step of making the Ink)....   Creating Adpet 3's in T6 did not create the Loam, the first step in creating the Ink did...</p><hr></blockquote>Name one other use for a rare ink besides an adept3....well? Anything?IN THE PROCESS of making an adept3, you got the rare loam. It's not like everyone bugged alchemists for ink if it wasn't for a fighter adept3. <font color="#ffff00">I'm a sage and I made all the inks myself</font>It's the same damned thing, and you know it. Stop trying to nitpick.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I think that is the compalint the OP has weather it was done a year ago or not. With all of the changes made in LU20 the use for the alchemist has IMHO been reduced . The fact that you could make all of the inks yourself was a problem for alchemist in the past but they could fall back on potions and poisons and extracts now that the poisons and potions and extracts are used alot less the non dependency of other classes come into play.  The alchemist has been reduced to few potions and poisons  and adept 3's and not everyone has the coin to get spongy loam  x12 and since poisons dont proc hardly any more their use has diminished. The point is that when SOE made the changes to the poison procs and got rid of extracts they not only hit the scout class hard but the alchemist. I for one have not bothered to lvl past 60. The cost out weighs the income  potential ATM.BedlamX</span></div>

[Rijacki]

Where the dust comes from in relatition to where it came from before -does- matter.If I wanted loam, I could make ink and then hold the ink for one of my characters later (lower level than my alchemy) or sell it to another crafter to use for a rune, scroll, or essence. If I want dust, I have to either make a fighter adept III or find a jeweler or sage who bothers to go past the first level of "quality" when making adepts -and- who has made an adept III rune or scroll (or even essence, if I were to get it from another alchemist).Magus' is right in that -total- adept III is where you got a rare loam before and the -total- adept III process is where you get one now, but the interim steps allowed A LOT more flexibility in the system (which is the point he is completely and utterly missing) as to the timing of when the adept III is made vs when the rare poison or potion was made.But... that's relatively moot.The effects of the rares vs the handcrafted aren't enough to justify the rarity of the dust.  In some cases (notably the int potion) there is only a difference of +2.Since there is a significant decrease in the yield per rare (whether you count uses or potential procs), that compounds the situation. <div></div>

[Moncreat]

<div></div><p>By the way, if I am not mistaken, but Legendary poisons for T6 only have 4 procs per charge not 200.  The non legendary poisons (dd) have 200 procs per charge.</p><p>I do not know how many charges T7 poisons have on them for non legendary vs. legendary.</p>

[Gwenev]

<div></div><p>Somewhat off topic, but, really, the demand for crafted items from most professions has dropped dramatically in KoS (post 60).  As a level 69 jeweler, I've had a total of two orders (both for acrylia jewelry) and have managed to sell about 10 - 15 common items on the vendor at prices below the cost to make (after factoring in material cost). </p><p>When I hit jeweler 59, I got 150 orders in two days (ok, a very rare case - good timing on my part).  Hitting 69 jeweler, I've seen two orders.  Even discounting my fortunate original experience, two orders when there are only 5 jewelers at my level or higher is pretty indicative of a general lack of demand.  The reason is obvious, even the rare pieces are not a clear upgrade from the T6 rare pieces, and very good drops are readily available.  Eventually, I'll get some Adept 3 business, for sure, but most scouts are waiting now because prices are too high. </p><p>Go listen to the armorers, same story.  Ditto weaponsmiths.  Ditto tailors.  The new rare items are just not that good and overshadowed by easily obtained drops. </p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:06 AM</span></p>

[DmZB]

<div></div><p></p><hr>Moncreathe wrote:<p>By the way, if I am not mistaken, but Legendary poisons for T6 only have 4 procs per charge not 200.  The non legendary poisons (dd) have 200 procs per charge.</p><p></p><hr><p>You are incorrect.  There are many different types of both legendary and non-legendary poisons.  Very large DD very small Dot legendary (think adestes) has 200 procs, while the Extreme DD legendary has 4 procs.</p>

[DmZB]

<div></div>Another point which has seemed to have gotten washed was made that previously from 1 rare ink combine i could make 1 vial of legendary poison, 1 vial of legendary sta/str potion, and 1 vial of legendary int/wis potion.  A very nice combination for a predator.  After this change, 1 adept III combine i will be able to make 10 vials of poison OR 10 vials of str potion OR 10 vials of sta potion OR 10 vials of int potion OR 10 vials of wis potion.  blech.  Its crappy.  No flexibility.

[Rijacki]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moncreathe wrote:<p>By the way, if I am not mistaken, but Legendary poisons for T6 only have 4 procs per charge not 200.  The non legendary poisons (dd) have 200 procs per charge.</p><p>I do not know how many charges T7 poisons have on them for non legendary vs. legendary.</p><hr></blockquote>T1 to T6:DD + DoT poisons all have 200 procs no matter if common or rare.  7 charges max per combine.debuff poisons - 60 or 80 procs (I forget which)special effect poisons - varies depending on effectExtreme damage rare poisons do have 4 procs, yes, but the amount of damage per proc is pretty substantial.T6 rares:Adeste's Disruption (200 procs): 451 instantly + 74 for 4 "ticks" = up to 747 total damage per procTorment of Rijacki (fewer procs*): 325 instantly + 325 for 4 "ticks" = up to 1625 total damage per proc*can't remember how many, might be 4, might be more</span><span></span><div></div>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<p>There is a big difference... And I notice how you changed your story (yet not all rare combines created Loams, only the first step of making the Ink)....   Creating Adpet 3's in T6 did not create the Loam, the first step in creating the Ink did...</p><hr></blockquote>Name one other use for a rare ink besides an adept3....well? Anything?IN THE PROCESS of making an adept3, you got the rare loam. It's not like everyone bugged alchemists for ink if it wasn't for a fighter adept3. I'm a sage and I made all the inks myselfIt's the same damned thing, and you know it. Stop trying to nitpick.</span></div><hr></blockquote>First off the loam is a byproduct of the reagent and not the Ink. However you seem to be missing the point. It was much easier to make a stack of inks for future use without having to know what you intended to use it for than it is currently in T7 where you have to know what you are making first. The OPs concern as far as this goes is a valid one.

[Moncreat]

<div></div><p>Thank you DmZbat and Rijacki for pointing out my error.  I made an assumption and we all know what that does.  A guild mate of mine had made me a couple of rare (legendary) poisons  Torment of Rijacki and Kendricke's Stifling Solution which only have 4 procs per charge...I then made the assumtion since I had been using non legendary poisons that procced 200 time per charge that the legendary ones all only procced 4 times.  At that point I did not investigate any further.  Unfortunately you cannot see how many times they proc until you cast them upon yourself so I did not purchase any of the rares.</p><p>Thank you for pointing that out.  Now I know what I can buy or have made for me that will last longer than one battle.</p><p> </p>

[Rijacki]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Moncreathe wrote:<div></div><p>Thank you DmZbat and Rijacki for pointing out my error.  I made an assumption and we all know what that does.  A guild mate of mine had made me a couple of rare (legendary) poisons  Torment of Rijacki and Kendricke's Stifling Solution which only have 4 procs per charge...I then made the assumtion since I had been using non legendary poisons that procced 200 time per charge that the legendary ones all only procced 4 times.  At that point I did not investigate any further.  Unfortunately you cannot see how many times they proc until you cast them upon yourself so I did not purchase any of the rares.</p><p>Thank you for pointing that out.  Now I know what I can buy or have made for me that will last longer than one battle.</p><hr></blockquote>LU#13 took away the short description and it also took away the proc information which -sucks-.There's just some of us who have been working with the poisons for so long..... and I keep wondering why no one wants to try anything I cook...BTW, I updated EQ2Alchemy yesterday with as much T7 info as I had access... or energy (I was home with the flu).. to compile.The new poison.. umm.. scheme.. is a bit easier to understand without as many variations in types and styles of poisons.If, in T6, though, if you find Adeste to be drawing too much hate, try Kyri's for longer battles (smaller DD with a larger DoT).</span></div>

[Lutefisk]

<div></div><div></div><p>I've pretty much determined that DoF and KoS haven't added much to the game, so I'm not buying them.  This will limit my adventuring and crafting to level 50 and below, and thanks be that I still have plenty I haven't seen in the original game -- and friends who feel the same way.</p><p>I have heard stories similar to that of the OP from many crafters on several servers.  So for the remainder of my time here, I just won't bother too much about anything over 50 -- and hope to stock up on enough good poisons and potions before they change the system. Although i'm sure to get some use out of the few good ones they may be introducing-- just not holding my breath.</p><p>And I pretty much ignore anything Magus says -- he seems universally unhelpful, unable to comprehend written English, and uninformed.</p><p>Rijacki, thanks for your work on EQ2alchemy.com -- it and the poison/potion tables done by Schayder (?) have been the MOST useful things for me as an alchemist.</p><p>Message Edited by Lutefisk on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:18 PM</span></p>

[DmZB]

<div><hr>First off the loam is a byproduct of the reagent and not the Ink. However you seem to be missing the point. It was much easier to make a stack of inks for future use without having to know what you intended to use it for than it is currently in T7 where you have to know what you are making first. The OPs concern as far as this goes is a valid one.<hr></div><div>Agreed.  It also allowed me wide flexibility as to which of my alts i upgraded, and when...but i could still make potions and poisons from it without making any commitment.</div><div>I think all spell rares from a tier should be interchangable, and should include soft metal.  We should have the choice of what we want to use it for, whether its jewelery, spell ups for a wizard, or spell ups for a fighter, etc.  And let us get our potion/poison materials out of it before its commited to a specific spell upgrade.  I know you won't, but i have to say it because the new way is just wrong.</div>

[crumpledmonkey]

<div></div>yes my carpenter uses rare dye to make some paitings so i dont even need the ink just the dye.

[armus5]

<div></div>i had a 60 alchy and sage. being a necro when KoS came out I picked to level my sage first. I havent regreted to. I can make all my spells since I hit 69 on the sage. The alchy is not needed and almost useless. I intended to give grinding him a shot but it wont be a source of income. As with other crafters, people find too much better stuff adventuring. Best case is for adept3s, and most folks hunt masters instead.

[Pegesus]

I'm gonna give up pretty much on making money with t7 i make all my money still with t5 and t6.There is no way i can make enough money on app 4's when ad1's are dropping like candy.  And the fact that i spongy loams seem to be almost non existant on my server leaves ad3's kinda outta the question.  Potions are ok but not nearly as good a money maker as they where.So nevertheless im grinding out the cash with t5 and t6.  Hoping that t7 someday brings the cash back to us. Just a thought......Bring back armor dies and make alchemists able to make the dye.  That should offset some our loss with the potions/poisions and personally i think dyes shoulda been in game already.<div></div>