Necromancer/Conjuror Changes [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Sirlutt

03-08-2006, 02:07 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ail wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>WOW thank cpt obvious...imagine that is what this thread is about!</p><p>Again go cry some more.</p><p>It must be a class thing....rangers get a deserved nerf and cry like little [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es....necros get one and just ask when.</p><p>So what is your point here again but to cry more or what?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Couldn't agree more, the way the ranger community reacted to the latest changes makes me sick and ashamed to be a ranger....( well that and the number of BS posts that were made by rangers either lying outright about the current state of things or highly understating how unbalanced we were before LU 20..)</p><hr></blockquote>so reroll something else .. Rangers didnt get a "deserved nerf" they got a solid whacking with the nerf stick several times.. mechanics were changed which had a MUCH larger effect than desired.. anyone playing a Ranger with half a brain can see that and many many people playing classes other than the Ranger can see that.. many Rangers (including myself) stated over and over damage needed to be reduced,, the issue arose in HOW it was reduced. The fact that Rangers are getting fixes is a clear indication that their damage was reduced too much.Rangers were vocal because the changes dropped their DPS to the basement ... summoners on the other hand are getting a few tweaks in comparison .. I dont see any summoners owning up saying their DPS is too high.. they seem to think that they deserve to be Tier 1 .. not Tier 2... right now their pets put them FAR above the Tier 1 in quite a number of situations..Typically 95% of what I post on here is half hearted crap and not to be taken seriously... and this is no exception.. your ashamed of the way Rangers acted.. LOL.. oh.. my..god .. get a grip.. swivel your chair around and take a look at whats on either side of the computer screen for a little while.Just like the Ranger changes these wouldnt be happening if the people making the game didnt see a desparity.. not me, nor anyone else posting on the forums can enact a change like this. Sony has probably terrabytes of collected data with which to validate that summoners are doing more damage than intended.. and Rangers less than intended... changes go in to fix that... its pretty simple really.and Ali, i bet if you searched you'll find the out cry by the Rangers you dislike so much is because the nerf went too far, NOT because they were nerf'd.. 90% of the posts I have read agree with a reduction in Ranger damage.Adjustments are gonna happen.. adapt to it.. most Rangers have adapted by now.. some changed their play style.. some moved on to something more fun in other classes.. and besides.. these changes to summoners are minor really. their play style wont be that affected, the little yellow numbers will just be a bit less.</span></div>

03-08-2006, 02:22 AM

I love watching my conjuror guild mates in PPTR just resummon there pet after each huge hp trash encounter to have a pet with full power for each wave, where as I am stuck to try and regen power before the next fight and they are unaffected not to mention with the new summoner AAs its getting a little out of hand with criticals, I have parsed there attacks, 50-70% of them now being crits, is this intended for a class to be able to crit this much, in a duel they get me down in the red before I can even cast one .5 sec attack.<div></div>

Geothe

03-08-2006, 02:23 AM

<div></div><p>the high crit chance is a BUG with that AA and is already fixed on test, just needs to be pushed to live servers. lol</p><p>cause yes, the crit chance the bugged AA gives at the moment is just slightly insane. lol</p>

Master71

03-08-2006, 02:31 AM

Silly me the notes has been edited too.I don't care about DPS nerf, but i'll loose my loved stoneskin, too ubber for PvP purpose i'm sure, it even protects me from HT.<p>Message Edited by Master71 on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 PM</span></p>

03-08-2006, 02:34 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Geothe wrote:<div></div><p>the high crit chance is a BUG with that AA and is already fixed on test, just needs to be pushed to live servers. lol</p><p>cause yes, the crit chance the bugged AA gives at the moment is just slightly insane. lol</p><hr></blockquote>Good to know =p</span><div></div>

Blackguard

03-08-2006, 02:34 AM

At this time, those changes aren't ever going live, at least not in the way that they were mentioned in the update notes. I'm not sure what Lockeye is planning on changing, if anything, in upcoming updates at this point. <div></div>

03-08-2006, 02:50 AM

Hey BG, how about telling us what you and Lockeye are thinking about. What's the overall objective?I think most summoners would be happy to hear what you're planning and give early feedback. Yeah some people don't want the class touched at all, and they'll even complain summoners are under power, hehe! But from my experience in the forumns, there are alot of reasonable people that recognize that we're deeling with a small bit of real imbalance, and a HUGE amount of perceived imbalance. I'd like to see the class.Do you two agree or disagree that over time, summoners are designed to be a top DPS class? Not burst nukers, if not, what role do you see summoners playing?

ChaosUndivided

03-08-2006, 02:58 AM

<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div>

Nainitsuj

03-08-2006, 03:01 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're an idiot. You show me where it says rangers are supposed to do the best damage period and I'll agree to being nerfed.

Mode

03-08-2006, 03:02 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:At this time, those changes aren't ever going live, at least not in the way that they were mentioned in the update notes. I'm not sure what Lockeye is planning on changing, if anything, in upcoming updates at this point.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>My guess is there are about 100,000 accounts with a necro on it and even though they are completly over powered on raids sony wont touch them because Necros and Conjurors are the "we suck at gaming class" so when a skilled player plays one it is over powered, but when your normal run of the mill eq2 player plays them they are just average.</p><p>My vote /stealth nerf dumbfire pets</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:05 PM</span></p>

03-08-2006, 03:02 AM

Why?Whats mythical about it?5 + 5 = 102 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10.Two ways of getting to the same number in different ways.

ChaosUndivided

03-08-2006, 03:18 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:Why?Whats mythical about it?5 + 5 = 102 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10.Two ways of getting to the same number in different ways.<hr></blockquote>Because as Asterra once posted, their is no Magical Moment where a Wizard fires 5 Icecomets ate once, nor is their some time when a ranger shoots a 100 arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Sure some CA have more damage than others, but over long fights DPS output is pretty steady for any class.</div>

Geothe

03-08-2006, 03:20 AM

<div></div><div></div><p>"Sure some CA have more damage than others, but <strong>over long fights</strong> DPS output is pretty steady for any class"</p><p> </p><p>Which are a fraction of a fraction of the encounters in the ENTIRE GAME.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Geothe on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:20 PM</span></p>

03-08-2006, 03:34 AM

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:Why?Whats mythical about it?5 + 5 = 102 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10.Two ways of getting to the same number in different ways.<hr></blockquote>Because as Asterra once posted, their is no Magical Moment where a Wizard fires 5 Icecomets ate once, nor is their some time when a ranger shoots a 100 arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Sure some CA have more damage than others, but over long fights DPS output is pretty steady for any class.</div><hr></blockquote>So what 1 IC is twice the damage any 1 summoner attack can do. The point is that the tier trees were never meant to say that only Rangers and wizard can damage a mob, it wasn't even to say that in every situation they would dominate every other class.Specificaly, summoners are a DPS class, they just do it in a different way, AND have the potential to drop down in class and perform a different role.I've seen complete BS posts that say necros are out DPSing wizards without pets. Thats complete BS unless the necro is using a bugged ability. All necro spells are WOEFULLY less powerful that a same level. The necro spell set take nibbles out of the mob, where as wizards take big fat man sized bites. And when played well and including pets, our little nibbles compare well with other classes big bites.

sliderhouserules

03-08-2006, 03:41 AM

TangBaBa

03-08-2006, 03:47 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cry more, the devs may hear you.<hr></blockquote>check the patch notes buddy.. they did hear the Rangers.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Has anyone ever noticed a distinct lack of maturity in say, oh 90%, of the ranger posts in any forum? Maybe it's just me.

AbsentmindedMage

03-08-2006, 04:02 AM

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote>Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the summoner class. Summoners have extremely long casting times and rely heavily on dots and their pet. Short fights wizards/warlocks, rangers/assassins do outdamage everyone. In long fights, summoners often come out on top if they are using their mage pet. The reason being is the dots add up, the pet can be resummoned if it runs out of power, and we have the ability to draw power from our pets health as well as convert our own health to power. So, it is quite simple. Summoners have sustainability whereas the others mentioned do not. </span><span>SHow me a mage that can cast when they have no power? You cant except for summoners because we have our mage pets which can cast until they run out of power by which point we can resummon another with full power again. We last longer and have more steady damage then the bursting predators and sorcerors who can quite easily run out of power in very long fights.</span><span>It is really sick how people obsess over dps and that chart Moorgard posted. I have grouped with rangers and wizards who parse and insist on showing the parsing in group chat at the end of most fights. If the parse doesnt show them as number one, they act like little children. Funny thing is they are near the top. When they are number one, they get all egotistical. Of course, people fail to recall(selective memory perhaps) when Moorgard posted that summoners who use their mage pet will move into tier 1 in terms of dps. Why is that? Well, have you ever looked at the health points of a mage pet? It is extremely small. Since we have no really good roots, anyone who uses the mage pet will have to burn the creature down quickly. Of course no one is going to use the mage pet solo because even with its increased dps, it still isnt quick enough and your chances of dying are high. So, they use it in group.As far as the comments from the person suggesting that summoners=people who lack skill, again clearly you havent played one. It has been only within the past few months that summoners have become really viable(it is also why there is now a huge spike in the number of people playing them). I have played one since the beginning and you have no idea how difficult it was. You would send in your pet to attack a group. And it ends up attacking only one member of the group while the other 3 or 4 run back and proceeded to beat you to death. They fixed that and the pet actually taunts. Summoners = people who like to solo and group. Overall, they are a very versatile class. We do not have the roots of sorcerors, we do not have the mez and power regen abilities of enchanters, we do not have the armor & evac of predators. We have our pets which have little to no mitigation and we have are dots which have extremely long casting times.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p>

sunmagic

03-08-2006, 04:05 AM

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>TangBaBa wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cry more, the devs may hear you.<hr></blockquote>check the patch notes buddy.. they did hear the Rangers.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Has anyone ever noticed a distinct lack of maturity in say, oh 90%, of the ranger posts in any forum? Maybe it's just me.<hr></blockquote>man...what i've been reading is like what happened MANY years ago with Apple and IBM. Which one was better. I'm betterbecause I'm big blue. I'm better because I have cool graphics. Just like way back then it came down to this one thing....Each toon has a specific ability to do things good. One is good at one thing and the other is good at somethingelse. There can never be one all perfect toon because then why play it? It would become boring. So what if one doesmore damage than the other. Who cares. Enjoy playing the char. If you want to do more damage, then play one thatdoes what you want it to do. I have rolled a gaurdian, necro and an assisan. They all have different abilities but Idon't expect one to have the abilities of the other.Come on people Lets just enjoy it and roll with the changes. This will always be an everchanging game. It's designedthat way.Have fun!</span></div><p>Message Edited by sunmagic on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:06 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by sunmagic on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:07 PM</span></p>

MilkToa

03-08-2006, 04:13 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote>Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the summoner class. Summoners have extremely long casting times and rely heavily on dots and their pet. Short fights wizards/warlocks, rangers/assassins do outdamage everyone. In long fights, summoners often come out on top if they are using their mage pet. The reason being is the dots add up, the pet can be resummoned if it runs out of power, and we have the ability to draw power from our pets health as well as convert our own health to power. So, it is quite simple. Summoners have sustainability whereas the others mentioned do not. </span><span>SHow me a mage that can cast when they have no power? You cant except for summoners because we have our mage pets which can cast until they run out of power by which point we can resummon another with full power again. We last longer and have more steady damage then the bursting predators and sorcerors who can quite easily run out of power in very long fights.</span><span>It is really sick how people obsess over dps and that chart Moorgard posted. I have grouped with rangers and wizards who parse and insist on showing the parsing in group chat at the end of most fights. If the parse doesnt show them as number one, they act like little children. Funny thing is they are near the top. When they are number one, they get all egotistical. Of course, people fail to recall(selective memory perhaps) when Moorgard posted that summoners who use their mage pet will move into tier 1 in terms of dps. Why is that? Well, have you ever looked at the health points of a mage pet? It is extremely small. Since we have no really good roots, anyone who uses the mage pet will have to burn the creature down quickly. Of course no one is going to use the mage pet solo because even with its increased dps, it still isnt quick enough and your chances of dying are high. So, they use it in group.As far as the comments from the person suggesting that summoners=people who lack skill, again clearly you havent played one. It has been only within the past few months that summoners have become really viable(it is also why there is now a huge spike in the number of people playing them). I have played one since the beginning and you have no idea how difficult it was. You would send in your pet to attack a group. And it ends up attacking only one member of the group while the other 3 or 4 run back and proceeded to beat you to death. They fixed that and the pet actually taunts. Summoners = people who like to solo and group. Overall, they are a very versatile class. We do not have the roots of sorcerors, we do not have the mez and power regen abilities of enchanters, we do not have the armor & evac of predators. We have our pets which have little to no mitigation and we have are dots which have extremely long casting times.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who knows knowing about the warlock class; we have both long cast times and damage over time on many of our spells.</p><p> </p>

AbsentmindedMage

03-08-2006, 04:47 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote>Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the summoner class. Summoners have extremely long casting times and rely heavily on dots and their pet. Short fights wizards/warlocks, rangers/assassins do outdamage everyone. In long fights, summoners often come out on top if they are using their mage pet. The reason being is the dots add up, the pet can be resummoned if it runs out of power, and we have the ability to draw power from our pets health as well as convert our own health to power. So, it is quite simple. Summoners have sustainability whereas the others mentioned do not. </span><span>SHow me a mage that can cast when they have no power? You cant except for summoners because we have our mage pets which can cast until they run out of power by which point we can resummon another with full power again. We last longer and have more steady damage then the bursting predators and sorcerors who can quite easily run out of power in very long fights.</span><span>It is really sick how people obsess over dps and that chart Moorgard posted. I have grouped with rangers and wizards who parse and insist on showing the parsing in group chat at the end of most fights. If the parse doesnt show them as number one, they act like little children. Funny thing is they are near the top. When they are number one, they get all egotistical. Of course, people fail to recall(selective memory perhaps) when Moorgard posted that summoners who use their mage pet will move into tier 1 in terms of dps. Why is that? Well, have you ever looked at the health points of a mage pet? It is extremely small. Since we have no really good roots, anyone who uses the mage pet will have to burn the creature down quickly. Of course no one is going to use the mage pet solo because even with its increased dps, it still isnt quick enough and your chances of dying are high. So, they use it in group.As far as the comments from the person suggesting that summoners=people who lack skill, again clearly you havent played one. It has been only within the past few months that summoners have become really viable(it is also why there is now a huge spike in the number of people playing them). I have played one since the beginning and you have no idea how difficult it was. You would send in your pet to attack a group. And it ends up attacking only one member of the group while the other 3 or 4 run back and proceeded to beat you to death. They fixed that and the pet actually taunts. Summoners = people who like to solo and group. Overall, they are a very versatile class. We do not have the roots of sorcerors, we do not have the mez and power regen abilities of enchanters, we do not have the armor & evac of predators. We have our pets which have little to no mitigation and we have are dots which have extremely long casting times.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Spoken like someone who knows knowing about the warlock class; we have both long cast times and damage over time on many of our spells.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Clearly, you didnt read and understand what I posted. I know warlocks rely on dots. But you still do a burst. Your dots are very high damage dealing. The point was you do not have sustainability. Can you continue to cast indefinitely? No, i didnt think so. Summoners can continue to do significant damage indefinitely in a group using their mage pet. When the pet dies we convert health to power to summon another by using a shard or heart.As far as warlocks, you also have very effective roots so you do not have to worry about being hit.</span><div></div>

Sonic X

03-08-2006, 05:03 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote>Spoken like someone who knows nothing about the summoner class. Summoners have extremely long casting times and rely heavily on dots and their pet. Short fights wizards/warlocks, rangers/assassins do outdamage everyone. In long fights, summoners often come out on top if they are using their mage pet. The reason being is the dots add up, the pet can be resummoned if it runs out of power, and we have the ability to draw power from our pets health as well as convert our own health to power. So, it is quite simple. Summoners have sustainability whereas the others mentioned do not. </span><span>SHow me a mage that can cast when they have no power? You cant except for summoners because we have our mage pets which can cast until they run out of power by which point we can resummon another with full power again. We last longer and have more steady damage then the bursting predators and sorcerors who can quite easily run out of power in very long fights.</span><span>It is really sick how people obsess over dps and that chart Moorgard posted. I have grouped with rangers and wizards who parse and insist on showing the parsing in group chat at the end of most fights. If the parse doesnt show them as number one, they act like little children. Funny thing is they are near the top. When they are number one, they get all egotistical. Of course, people fail to recall(selective memory perhaps) when Moorgard posted that summoners who use their mage pet will move into tier 1 in terms of dps. Why is that? Well, have you ever looked at the health points of a mage pet? It is extremely small. Since we have no really good roots, anyone who uses the mage pet will have to burn the creature down quickly. Of course no one is going to use the mage pet solo because even with its increased dps, it still isnt quick enough and your chances of dying are high. So, they use it in group.As far as the comments from the person suggesting that summoners=people who lack skill, again clearly you havent played one. It has been only within the past few months that summoners have become really viable(it is also why there is now a huge spike in the number of people playing them). I have played one since the beginning and you have no idea how difficult it was. You would send in your pet to attack a group. And it ends up attacking only one member of the group while the other 3 or 4 run back and proceeded to beat you to death. They fixed that and the pet actually taunts. Summoners = people who like to solo and group. Overall, they are a very versatile class. We do not have the roots of sorcerors, we do not have the mez and power regen abilities of enchanters, we do not have the armor & evac of predators. We have our pets which have little to no mitigation and we have are dots which have extremely long casting times.</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Wow, someone on this board has sense, i like how people forget about all the bull crap before the huge combat revamp that we were stuck with and very few people wanted to play the class.We couldn't solo... solo grouped mobs because the tank pet couldn't keep anything off of us.The damage pets did horrible damage and the tank pet did the best DPS.Solo took a long time because even with a lone mob you had to slowly add damage.People are always talking about how great we are but in a regular group with the "supposedly" T1 DPS there isn't even enough time to put all of our spells on. If they do lower our damage they better give us some real utility. Raids we do great because the mob is up long enough for full effectiveness.I've yet to have people beg me to group with them because i can fd, rez, and heal a bit as well as do good dmg.</span></div>

Persi

03-08-2006, 05:04 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TangBaBa wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cry more, the devs may hear you.<hr></blockquote>check the patch notes buddy.. they did hear the Rangers.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Has anyone ever noticed a distinct lack of maturity in say, oh 90%, of the ranger posts in any forum? Maybe it's just me.<hr></blockquote><p>No trust me, it isn't just you:smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assasin on Unrest</p>

Persi

03-08-2006, 05:07 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read.</p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assassin on Unrest</p>

Shardrael

03-08-2006, 05:22 AM

<div>I would just like to second the motion, to hear what you guys have planned or are leaning towards so we can start getting feedback going as early as possible</div><div> </div><div>ohh and btw blackguard thanks for teh scare <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Sirlutt

03-08-2006, 05:56 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're an idiot. You show me where it says rangers are supposed to do the best damage period and I'll agree to being nerfed.<hr></blockquote>i'm an idiot ?.. you show ME where *I* said Rangers are supposed to do the best damage [Removed for Content]...For the last god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] time.. Ragers needed to be reduced, their damage was way above anyoen elses.. they just happen to have been reduced in a way that exposed a bunch of other weaknesses in the class. They relied on a bug'd mechanic for their DPs and when it was fixed it showed that in fact alot of their CA's werent equal to those of their class counter part the assassin.</span></div>

Runelaron

03-08-2006, 06:58 AM

<div></div><font color="#3366cc">Can anyone repost what the origonal notes said? I would just like to know.</font>

Reiano

03-08-2006, 07:04 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Persis4 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read.</p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assassin on Unrest</p><hr></blockquote>I agree also very ignorant post. I think my highest burst nuke is 600 im all for some changes but are change to stone skin is stupid why not give us a 100% mind wipe spell insteade like in eq1 what bards had. And the person who said something about us recasting are pets it takes 10 secs to cast one and there probley doing it is cause that die if hit bye most all aoes.</span><div></div>

Daelomd

03-08-2006, 12:10 PM

Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.Fact: Summoners despite having incredible DPS ability also have amazing utility. * Rez, Invis, Call of Hero, Health and Power Heals, Life Taps, insane Pull range, StoneskinFact: Summoners are able to duplicate any other class in the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS....Fact: Summoners consistently recieve new abilities that just making others jaws drop. * IE: An AP ability that with 4 points gives them a perm buff with a 50% chance to crit hit on everything, with 8 points its 100%.Other DPS classes feel like we have to make sacrafices in order to the the damage we are able to deal. This is not the case with the summoner classes, not only do they do insane damage they also have a sick arsenal of utility abilities. Summoners I have spoeken with deny this adimentally... but you can't lie to a parser and you can't lie about the utilty spells they have.<div></div>

schrammy

03-08-2006, 12:29 PM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Daelomdel wrote:Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.<font color="#33cc00"> You mean like raids, where you go oop? Oh i'm sorry that i do more dmg then you while you were oop. You're right, your melee autoattack dmg should easily outdps other classes' full arsenal.</font>Fact: Summoners despite having incredible DPS ability also have amazing utility. * Rez, Invis, Call of Hero, Health and Power Heals, Life Taps, insane Pull range, Stoneskin<font color="#33cc00">l won't argue here, yes we have this amazing utility.</font></p><p>Fact: Summoners are able to duplicate any other class in the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS....<font color="#33cc00">.Yea sure, my tank can tank about anything blue heroic with 2 healers. We replace any dps class? ROFLOL. Healing LOL: yea i'm sure my 9second 1200 heal (Master T7) will keep a guardian alive against anything heroic.</font></p><p>Fact: Summoners consistently recieve new abilities that just making others jaws drop. * IE: An AP ability that with 4 points gives them a perm buff with a 50% chance to crit hit on everything, with 8 points its 100%.<font color="#33cc00">Fact: You are referring to 1 ability which is BUGGED (fixed in test) where is this consistently?</font></p><font color="#33cc00"></font><p>Other DPS classes feel like we have to make sacrafices in order to the the damage we are able to deal. This is not the case with the summoner classes, not only do they do insane damage they also have a sick arsenal of utility abilities.<font color="#33cc00">.Deagro? How bout Ae Root, stuns/stifles, etc..</font><font color="#ffffff"> Summoners I have spoeken with deny this adimentally... but you can't lie to a parser and you can't lie about the utilty spells they have.<font color="#33cc00">Your parser can and IS lieing(spelling?) Example; Necro has 1 dot and 4different dumbfires, hence we use them. Those DB get the same name as the pet. Hence your parser shows our pet doing ALL that damage. Did it never occur to you, that its weird why the same pet was doing Poison and Disease and crushing and slashing and peiercing and... </font></font></p></blockquote><blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote>

Nainitsuj

03-08-2006, 12:36 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.Fact: Summoners despite having incredible DPS ability also have amazing utility. * Rez, Invis, Call of Hero, Health and Power Heals, Life Taps, insane Pull range, StoneskinFact: Summoners are able to duplicate any other class in the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS....Fact: Summoners consistently recieve new abilities that just making others jaws drop. * IE: An AP ability that with 4 points gives them a perm buff with a 50% chance to crit hit on everything, with 8 points its 100%.Other DPS classes feel like we have to make sacrafices in order to the the damage we are able to deal. This is not the case with the summoner classes, not only do they do insane damage they also have a sick arsenal of utility abilities. Summoners I have spoeken with deny this adimentally... but you can't lie to a parser and you can't lie about the utilty spells they have.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Fact: While summoners outdamage any other class on the end-game encounters, we rarely have enough time to reach that kind of damage on the normal grind (the 80% of the game) </p><p>Fact: Almost every class in the game has some form of overlaping utiltiy. Tanks with FD/heals/rezzes/invis etc.</p><p>Fact: Lifetaps are not a utility and every mage class has some form of power regen ability.</p><p>Fact: Scouts can reproduce any other class in the game. Brigands with enough mit to tank, etc.</p><p>Fact: Conj.s constantly get new abilities that make jaws drop. Yet when they are used on anything other than the tank (the solo pet) they pay the price and wait to be rezzed. Necros get massive fluff spells which die in the fist AE attack.</p><p>Fact: Using a known buggy AA as proof is 100% wrong. It's being fixed soon. It was never supposed to give 100% crit chance. </p><p>Taking 1 parse out of a month's worth of data hardly proves anything. You need to remember that numbers can be used to prove anything.</p><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 PM</span></p>

Worrick

03-08-2006, 01:43 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span><blockquote><p> </p></blockquote>Clearly, you didnt read and understand what I posted. I know warlocks rely on dots. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Um no. Warlocks do not rely on DoTs. We only have 2 single target dots, our primary damage spells are direct damage. When soloing useign a DoT is a sure way to die. When grouping our main dmaage abilities are still direct damage, only occasionally do I use dots since they do very little damage when the target dies before they run thier full course. Warlocks, according to the changes in LU13, are AE specialist, but no tank can hold agro for us to use 2 of them together and there are no grouped encounters in KoS. So basically Warlocks are nothign more then a handfull of direct damage nukes as far as damage goes.</p><p>We do have logn castign time spells though, all our damage spells are a minimum of 2 seconds, our main ones being 3 seconds or longer.</p>

zit

03-08-2006, 01:53 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Daelomdel wrote:Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.<font color="#33cc00"> You mean like raids, where you go oop? Oh i'm sorry that i do more dmg then you while you were oop. You're right, your melee autoattack dmg should easily outdps other classes' full arsenal.</font></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>i dont know about necros but for conjuror i can say for sure that every single one i have grouped with recently came out #1 dps consitantly. i doubt that i just have been that lucky to only get pick up groups with the best skilled conjurors out there. or that i only get groups where everyone beside the conjuror sux in their class.</p><p>and for raids...even on mobs that die long before our sorcerer are out of power and they just can go full out, there is no way they can compete with summoner. conjuror lead the dps rank by a wide margin. the only ones who can come close to them atm are necros. again i doubt that the player of our guild are the big exception here.</p><p>so maybe the term "sustained dps" is not a myth. but that summoners only come out #1 dps on sustained fights (whatever these are...30 sec? 2 min?) is a myth i am not surprised they would like to keep up.</p>

AbsentmindedMage

03-08-2006, 03:43 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Worrick wrote:<blockquote></blockquote><p>Warlocks, according to the changes in LU13, are AE specialist, but no tank can hold agro for us to use 2 of them together and <b>there are no grouped encounters in KoS.</b></p></blockquote></span><hr width="100%" size="2">There are grouped encounters in KoS. There are groups of 2 and 3 in Sanctum for example. THe groups of two are usually ^^ heroic, groups of three are ^ heroic. I have seen some groups as many as 5 in Sanctum of the Scaleborn. There are also groups outside of instances which follow the 2 or 3 makeup but are solo encounters.<span></span><div></div>

Tro

03-08-2006, 04:42 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:At this time, those changes aren't ever going live, <font color="#ff0033">at least not in the way that they were mentioned in the update notes</font>. I'm not sure what Lockeye is planning on changing, if anything, in upcoming updates at this point.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks a bunch for the update BG.. One thing..can you (Or Lockeye) maybe give us an idea as to how they will change Conjuror's? if it is gonna be in a different way than was posted in the test notes then I would just like to know in what way. Surely LE or yourself have some idea.. </p><p>Also, even thought those changes are not going live anytime soon, I was just curious as to what % of a DPS reduction the fire/air pets were gonna get if it had gone live..</p><p>Thanks again for communicating <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p> </p>

Suraklin

03-08-2006, 05:09 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>People need to get this notion of Burst and Sustained DPS out of there heads. It's a Myth.</div><hr></blockquote>Wow that post was so stupid it brings the word "special" to mind.

Suraklin

03-08-2006, 05:11 PM

Daelomd

03-08-2006, 05:29 PM

<div></div>If you are a summoner, especially a conjurer and your not #1 dps with you + your pet EVERY fight then you need to learn your class better or upgrade your spells.Yes ever mage has the ability to regen a VERY limited about of power... however the conjurer simply nukes his pet pickes up 1500 health and I think 800 power, which btw is for the group. Then spends 10 seconds summoning a new pet.Tanking? Give me a break - name another top dps that can send a pet in which will hold aggro perfectly while soloing? Thats right no one. Yeah I can root with a chance to break... but the insane taunts on tank pets dont lose agro... and just in case they do? Thats right conjuerers have roots as well!And where as my utility as a Warlock is invis - where all anyone needs do is be level 30 to reproduce the effect with a totem, I am still looking for the totem with Call of Hero, Power Shard, 100% Stoneskin + Deaggro.....As I said, you cant argue that Conjurers have more utility then any other one class in the game.... and yet they are still #1 or atleast always on the top 5 of the parse.Conjurers whining about anything is sickening. If you wanna talk about the nerf bat there are plenty of classes with much more right to call nerf then conjurers have ever seen. A short list from Warlocks over the past 3 months: (by the way NONE of these were EVER any any updates notes... it was all ninja!)1. Reapplying the target limit to Devastion, despite the fact that all encounter AE's are suppose to be able to hit unlimited targets.2. Losing 1-4 seconds of stuns from all abilites with stun affects.3. Removal of the only stifle spell Warlocks had - replacing it with another pacify. (Warlocks can root, so its not the melee attacks that present a problems its the mobs nuking them back.)4. Increase casting times on several abilities. (including changing our instant cast pacify to a cast time)5. Requiring Nill crystals for 25% of the spells Warlocks cast - then making the spells that yield them costly and worthless (debuff targets max hp by 500 for 1min...) Untop of that, despite assurances that debuffs would be able to stack even if they didnt able to debuff twice only one Warlock at a time can get Nill Crystals from a mob!6. Introducing new AE spells for several other classes in KOS that are clearly dominate then the one given to Warlocks. (IE: Wizards hitting 1 time for 11K+, Warlocks hitting for 3.5K once....granted Warlocks can hit 12 targets and Wizards only 3... but how many times have you seen an end-game named with more then 3 targets?)7. Lastly, though not a nerf, NEVER replying to any post or concern in the Warlocks forums (with the exception of once telling us one of our dumbfire pets would would again, three months after the broke it, but then it didnt actually work.)On a side note: Count up the number of high-end raid encoutners from DOF that had two or more mobs of equall dificulty (health)... thats how usefull Warlocks are being the "Kings of AE" in what ammounts to be the vast majority of the game. I am a few levels from 70, then my grouping days are done again.... and its back to the only thing left for high-end, raiding.I guess to sum it up, I am saying... building a bridge and get over it. You have crazy DPS, you have a huge arsenal of utiltiy.... and yet you have the gail to argue that your a balanced class.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Daelomdel on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:41 AM</span></p>

Suraklin

03-08-2006, 05:36 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:If you are a summoner, especially a conjurer and your not #1 dps with you + your pet EVERY fight then you need to learn your class better or upgrade your spells.Yes ever mage has the ability to regen a VERY limited about of power... however the conjurer simply nukes his pet pickes up 1500 health and I think 800 power, which btw is for the group. Then spends 10 seconds summoning a new pet.Tanking? Give me a break - name another top dps that can send a pet in which will hold aggro perfectly while soloing? Thats right no one. Yeah I can root with a chance to break... but the insane taunts on tank pets dont lose agro... and just in case they do? Thats right conjuerers have roots as well!And where as my utility as a Warlock is invis - where all anyone needs do is be level 30 to reproduce the effect with a totem, I am still looking for the totem with Call of Hero, Power Shard, 100% Stoneskin + Deaggro.....As I said, you cant argue that Conjurers have more utility then any other one class in the game.... and yet they are still #1 or atleast always on the top 5 of the parse.Conjurers whining about anything is sickening.On a side note: Count up the number of high-end raid encoutners from DOF that had two or more mobs of equall dificulty (health)... thats how usefull Warlocks are being the "Kings of AE" in what ammounts to be the vast majority of the game. I am a few levels from 70, then my grouping days are done again.... and its back to the only thing left for high-end, raiding.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm, sounds like someone has Summoner envy.

Tro

03-08-2006, 05:42 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:If you are a summoner, especially a conjurer and your not #1 dps with you + your pet EVERY fight then you need to learn your class better or upgrade your spells.Yes ever mage has the ability to regen a VERY limited about of power... however the conjurer simply nukes his pet pickes up 1500 health and I think 800 power, which btw is for the group. Then spends 10 seconds summoning a new pet.Tanking? Give me a break - name another top dps that can send a pet in which will hold aggro perfectly while soloing? Thats right no one. Yeah I can root with a chance to break... but the insane taunts on tank pets dont lose agro... and just in case they do? Thats right conjuerers have roots as well!And where as my utility as a Warlock is invis - where all anyone needs do is be level 30 to reproduce the effect with a totem, I am still looking for the totem with Call of Hero, Power Shard, 100% Stoneskin + Deaggro.....<font color="#ffffff">As I said, you cant argue that Conjurers have more utility then any other one class in the game.... and yet they are still #1 or atleast always on the top 5 of the parse.</font>Conjurers whining about anything is sickening.On a side note: Count up the number of high-end raid encoutners from DOF that had two or more mobs of equall dificulty (health)... thats how usefull Warlocks are being the "Kings of AE" in what ammounts to be the vast majority of the game. I am a few levels from 70, then my grouping days are done again.... and its back to the only thing left for high-end, raiding.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sounds like Conjuror envy to me..</p><p>Thats right.. Conjuror;s do have nice utility.. thats the nature of the class.. You can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all u want.. you should have rolled a Conjurer.. Lack of class research at the time of toon creation is no ones fault but yours.. If I wanted evac I would have rolled a scout.. same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. You screwed up and realize what the conjuror class has to offer so now your [Removed for Content]..</p><p>Go troll somewhere else..</p>

Daelomd

03-08-2006, 05:47 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div>Hmm, sounds like someone has Summoner envy.<hr></blockquote>Its not envy in as much as its a desire to see the Developers stop playing favorites with the classes. Leveling and playing a summoner class does not require anymore work then to level and play any other class, so to have such disperportionate "rewards" for one class over any other given class is ridiculous.Playing Favorites:It comes down to one or two answers, either the devlopers are favoring summoners or they arn't smart enough or well enough informed to realize what they are doing. I happen to think the developers show a great deal of intelligence and I do not see them as being lazy. So they clearly must know about the current situation and approve of it. IE: They are playing favorites. Weither this is, as some people claim, because certain developers happen to play those class or because the developers responsible for working on those classes have some special love for them matters not. The facts all point to summoners as a whole being a class whose rewards for leveling are far greater then any other class.So by and large I keep my mouth shut, however, I just cant sit idle by when Conjurers have the nerve to cry out about something being unfair.</span></div>

Daelomd

03-08-2006, 05:54 PM

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Trook wrote:<div></div><p>Sounds like Conjuror envy to me..</p><p>Thats right.. Conjuror;s do have nice utility.. thats the nature of the class.. You can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] all u want.. you should have rolled a Conjurer.. Lack of class research at the time of toon creation is no ones fault but yours.. If I wanted evac I would have rolled a scout.. same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. You screwed up and realize what the conjuror class has to offer so now your [Removed for Content]..</p><p>Go troll somewhere else..</p><hr></blockquote>This is a sad attempt at addressing fact.The developers have stated one thing and yet have done another. They have claimed there is to be a hierachy of DPS, and yet have consistently failed to works towards it. They have claimed the in any given character there is suppose to be balance between what they are able to do (IE: The ability to tank, heal, inflict damage, or provide utiltiy.)It is obviously for the language that the forms had to filter out for you because you apparently couldn't word a response without them and from the general tone of your post that you agree on the facts that I have previously posted and that your only complaint is that someone is voicing these things where a developer might see it.... If anyone here is the troll it would be yourself.Edited to respond to your other posts:I guess I missed the part where Everquest 2 was about researching and creating the ONE power class in the game.As for immaturity and reading ones posts - I am expressing my opinion of the game and the changes that are being made to it. Hence the reason I am posting under "In Testing Feedback." You are posting your opinion about another player and their right to post their opinions about the game. Your hostile nature and use of profanity in your post is far more telling of your immaturity then any opinion I have given about the game.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Daelomdel on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:01 AM</span></p>

Anlari

03-08-2006, 06:21 PM

<div></div><p>I still don't understand this argument. I play a warlock and a conujurer and I still do not out-damage my warlock except on raid mobs. People keep picking and choosing the summoner abilities and saying we deal massive DPS while tanking. We don't. When we use our tank pet, our DPS is not massive at all. We have pet stances just like other classes have stances. We give up damage to have safety when we use those pets. We are adaptable, but so are a lot of other classes. I still have yet to kill as hard and quickly as my warlock does on 90% of the game's content. The biggest advantage we have over other classes, is that we have an auto-attack (our pets). That makes a huge difference in those long raid encounters and maybe someone should look into the other casters and figure out soemthing for them.</p><p>All of these arguments always amount to the same thing with a pet class. People pick and choose our high points and make them appear to be the constants when they are not. I agree, my conjurer is easier to play then my warlock, but so what? I have a defiler thats easier to play then my guardian was too but guardians don't want defilers "fixed". I stated long ago I have no idea how they could lower our raid damage without taking away our pets altogather, or killing our ability to solo, or making some of the pets just not usable. It is always the nature of pet classes to be like this. Look at the old EQ necro.</p><p>Thew changes that were originaly put into the test notes would not do anything except make two of our three pets not used any longer. Everyone would use the earth pet with offensive stance and would upgrade them both to master levels and then content that people desigend would be wasted. Not a good solution, so they will see if they can find another. It is no reason for anyone on any side to panic. Relax and enjoy what your class does rather then brooding over what it doesn't do and you might enjoy playing the game.</p>

Kenazeer

03-08-2006, 06:23 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Runelaron wrote:<div></div><font color="#3366cc">Can anyone repost what the origonal notes said? I would just like to know.</font><hr></blockquote><div>Conjuror changes:- Stoneskin now has no power cost, a 5 minute reuse timer instead of 15, and fires a point blank AoE hate decrease.- The Air Pet has less of a DPS bonus than it used to.- The Air Pet's Furystorm ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Air Pet's Galestorm ability had its damage reduced, reuse timer increased, and power cost lowered.- The Fire Pet's Shocking Flames ability had its damage reduced.- The Fire Pet's Wave of Flames ability had its damage reduced.- The Fire Pet's Storm of Flames ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.Necromancer changes:- Deathly Pallor now has no power cost and a 5 minute reuse timer instead of 15.- The Shade Pet has less of a DPS bonus than it used to.- The Shade Pet's Shadestrike ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Shade Pet's Acidity ability had its damage reduced, reuse timer increased, and power cost lowered.- The Mage Pet's Grim Devastation ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Scout Pet will now use the proper combat arts more consistently and will correctly gain a new combat art at level 60.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

KBern

03-08-2006, 06:43 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:<div></div>If you are a summoner, especially a conjurer and your not #1 dps with you + your pet EVERY fight then you need to learn your class better or upgrade your spells.Yes ever mage has the ability to regen a VERY limited about of power... however the conjurer simply nukes his pet pickes up 1500 health and I think 800 power, which btw is for the group. Then spends 10 seconds summoning a new pet.Tanking? Give me a break - name another top dps that can send a pet in which will hold aggro perfectly while soloing? Thats right no one. Yeah I can root with a chance to break... but the insane taunts on tank pets dont lose agro... and just in case they do? Thats right conjuerers have roots as well!And where as my utility as a Warlock is invis - where all anyone needs do is be level 30 to reproduce the effect with a totem, I am still looking for the totem with Call of Hero, Power Shard, 100% Stoneskin + Deaggro.....As I said, you cant argue that Conjurers have more utility then any other one class in the game.... and yet they are still #1 or atleast always on the top 5 of the parse.Conjurers whining about anything is sickening. If you wanna talk about the nerf bat there are plenty of classes with much more right to call nerf then conjurers have ever seen. A short list from Warlocks over the past 3 months: (by the way NONE of these were EVER any any updates notes... it was all ninja!)1. Reapplying the target limit to Devastion, despite the fact that all encounter AE's are suppose to be able to hit unlimited targets.2. Losing 1-4 seconds of stuns from all abilites with stun affects.3. Removal of the only stifle spell Warlocks had - replacing it with another pacify. (Warlocks can root, so its not the melee attacks that present a problems its the mobs nuking them back.)4. Increase casting times on several abilities. (including changing our instant cast pacify to a cast time)5. Requiring Nill crystals for 25% of the spells Warlocks cast - then making the spells that yield them costly and worthless (debuff targets max hp by 500 for 1min...) Untop of that, despite assurances that debuffs would be able to stack even if they didnt able to debuff twice only one Warlock at a time can get Nill Crystals from a mob!6. Introducing new AE spells for several other classes in KOS that are clearly dominate then the one given to Warlocks. (IE: Wizards hitting 1 time for 11K+, Warlocks hitting for 3.5K once....granted Warlocks can hit 12 targets and Wizards only 3... but how many times have you seen an end-game named with more then 3 targets?)7. Lastly, though not a nerf, NEVER replying to any post or concern in the Warlocks forums (with the exception of once telling us one of our dumbfire pets would would again, three months after the broke it, but then it didnt actually work.)On a side note: Count up the number of high-end raid encoutners from DOF that had two or more mobs of equall dificulty (health)... thats how usefull Warlocks are being the "Kings of AE" in what ammounts to be the vast majority of the game. I am a few levels from 70, then my grouping days are done again.... and its back to the only thing left for high-end, raiding.I guess to sum it up, I am saying... building a bridge and get over it. You have crazy DPS, you have a huge arsenal of utiltiy.... and yet you have the gail to argue that your a balanced class.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Daelomdel on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:41 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Learn to play your class, the warlocks in my guild do some amazing things.</p><p>Maybe the class is not for you or you just need more time to learn how to play...its ok..it will come for you.</p><p>I love when the honest players come on here and shoot down the whiners of their own class and interject some reality into the conversation.</p><p>SO many of the little jealous posters have such selective memory with what THEY can do when they speak about what conj and necs can do.</p><p>The devs are well aware of what your classes can do also so smoke screens wont do you any good.</p><p>Necs and conjs are happy with our classes. We dont hide that we are a great class to play even though some classes can do things we cant. We dont come on here and hide that we are well balanced. We dont solo oranges, we dont solo yellows though we can in some situations, AS CAN SO MANY OTHER CLASSES.</p><p>I dont see us asking for nerfs for everybody because we are not jealous little twits who only look at one or two factors of the class.</p><p>I am glad the devs know what we can do, and also know what rangers, warlocks, wizards, bezerkers, etc can do.</p><p>But keep spouting bullcrap, it is entertaining.</p><p>Yea yeah...the integrity of the game...DPS tree....blah blah.</p>

KBern

03-08-2006, 06:46 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div><p>I still don't understand this argument. I play a warlock and a conujurer and I still do not out-damage my warlock except on raid mobs. People keep picking and choosing the summoner abilities and saying we deal massive DPS while tanking. We don't. When we use our tank pet, our DPS is not massive at all. We have pet stances just like other classes have stances. We give up damage to have safety when we use those pets. We are adaptable, but so are a lot of other classes. I still have yet to kill as hard and quickly as my warlock does on 90% of the game's content. The biggest advantage we have over other classes, is that we have an auto-attack (our pets). That makes a huge difference in those long raid encounters and maybe someone should look into the other casters and figure out soemthing for them.</p><p>All of these arguments always amount to the same thing with a pet class. People pick and choose our high points and make them appear to be the constants when they are not. I agree, my conjurer is easier to play then my warlock, but so what? I have a defiler thats easier to play then my guardian was too but guardians don't want defilers "fixed". I stated long ago I have no idea how they could lower our raid damage without taking away our pets altogather, or killing our ability to solo, or making some of the pets just not usable. It is always the nature of pet classes to be like this. Look at the old EQ necro.</p><p>Thew changes that were originaly put into the test notes would not do anything except make two of our three pets not used any longer. Everyone would use the earth pet with offensive stance and would upgrade them both to master levels and then content that people desigend would be wasted. Not a good solution, so they will see if they can find another. It is no reason for anyone on any side to panic. Relax and enjoy what your class does rather then brooding over what it doesn't do and you might enjoy playing the game.</p><hr></blockquote><p>HERE HERE</p><p>Read one of your own stating actual facts....not hyperbole and exaggerations..</p><p>There is no favorite, if we were, we would not have been broken for over a year.</p><p>ANd guess what? Many of us played our class through the broken times because we *gasp* love the class we play. </p><p>Now they were made to be what they should, and people toss out BS about favorite classes, and no skilled players....so very funny.</p>

Geoff

03-08-2006, 06:52 PM

<div></div><div></div>meh, i don't know what all the fuss is about. I have yet to be out dps'd on a raid by a summoner. But i have seen quite a few other "top guilds" parses, and frankly, I'm amazed at how many warlocks either don't know how to play their class, or go afk every five minutes and then complain why they're not top of the parse. If anything, I'd like some kind of utility spell, like evac, feign death, call of hero....somethign like that. Every other mage class gets one, cept us warlocks <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think feign death would be most appropriate. But this is a just fluff, and hardly gamebreaking that we don't get one.<p>Message Edited by Geoff77 on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:52 AM</span></p>

Amocus

03-08-2006, 06:54 PM

You know, I've played a conjuror since day one at launch. I like the class. I liked them before LU 13, I've liked them after. I play without regard to my dps. Frankly, as long as I can kill the mob without getting killed, I'm fine with it.I play to have fun, not to be better than someone else. That kind of crap is for real life.If they nerf my summoner, I'll still play him. Because I find the class fun.I also play a Pally, they say they've been nerfed. I still find them a blast.I also play a warden, supposedly nerfed, I have fun with them.Maybe if we all just concentrated on having fun rather than being better than everyone else, the game would be more enjoyable? I really don't care where I fall in the dps rankings. As long as I can solo, and as long as I am able to bring something to a group, I find I have fun.I know...what a foolish idealist I am.<div></div>

Suraklin

03-08-2006, 06:58 PM

<div>I'm beginning to think all the people whining about not being top DPS have a small [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and think being king of DPS in a game will compensate.</div>

AbsentmindedMage

03-08-2006, 08:40 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:<div></div><i>If you are a summoner, especially a conjurer and your not #1 dps with you + your pet EVERY fight then you need to learn your class better or upgrade your spells.</i><hr width="100%" size="2">That can be said for any of the dps classes. We all do not have master spells. The sorcerors and predators I have seen have consistently come out on top of the parsing. And it *REALLY* does depend on the length of the fight. I still cannot understand why people do not understand the concept of sustainability...<hr width="100%" size="2"><span>Daelomdel wrote:</span><i>Tanking? Give me a break - name another top dps that can send a pet in which will hold aggro perfectly while soloing? Thats right no one. Yeah I can root with a chance to break... but the insane taunts on tank pets dont lose agro... and just in case they do? Thats right conjuerers have roots as well!</i><hr width="100%" size="2">That is a joke. While the "tank" pet does have good aggro holding abilities, it cannot hold perfectly. If a summoner uses more than 2 group dots then it is almost certain that one of the group encounters is going to attack them. So, you are stating something as a fact which isnt. Summoners do not have the damage dealing spells that sorcerors have so we cannot live with a direct fight. We need our pet as an essential blockade from the target getting to us. Sorcerors have the root and the high dealing damage. As for summoners root, it is nothing compared to sorcerors and it shouldnt be as we rely on the pet to block the enemy and keep its attention away from us.<hr width="100%" size="2"><span><span>Daelomdel wrote:</span></span><i>And where as my utility as a Warlock is invis - where all anyone needs do is be level 30 to reproduce the effect with a totem, I am still looking for the totem with Call of Hero, Power Shard, 100% Stoneskin + Deaggro.....</i><hr width="100%" size="2">How can you complain about power shards and hearts? You realize that these items convert the users health into power. As a Warlock you have that ability through a spell e.g. Invite Void. Call of Hero costs 1g 20s each time we cast it and it has 8 minute reuse timer. Stoneskin is being changed it will not absorb the 3 hits, so necromancers feign death is much more useful. In anycase, warlocks do have spells which can be used to escape. There is one that i know of that will teleport a group of enemies away and stun them.<hr width="100%" size="2"><span><span>Daelomdel wrote:</span></span><i>As I said, you cant argue that Conjurers have more utility then any other one class in the game.... and yet they are still #1 or atleast always on the top 5 of the parse.</i><hr width="100%" size="2">It is nonsense to say that. Necromancers have far more utility than conjurers. Feign death(avoid a total wipe), hearts, little bit of healing, and their buffs. Conjurers have Call of Hero, shards, and their buffs that is it. Scouts have their group sneak(well some do), tracking (very useful to a group), evac (also useful), and some buffs for speed. <hr width="100%" size="2"><span><span>Daelomdel wrote:</span></span><i>I guess to sum it up, I am saying... building a bridge and get over it. You have crazy DPS, you have a huge arsenal of utiltiy.... and yet you have the gail to argue that your a balanced class.</i><p><i>Message Edited by Daelomdel on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:41 AM</span></i></p><hr></blockquote>Well, i think i pointed out that conjurers do not have this huge utility that you somehow envision. We have 3 group utilities which fall within line or below line with what other classes also bring to group. As for this "crazy" dps, it has been said over and over again that with the mage pet a summoner will enter the tier 1 in terms of dps. Coupling that with the ability of a summoner to resummon a pet when it runs out of power, we have sustainability where others are essentially sitting on sideline when their power runs out on long fights.</span><div></div>

KBern

03-08-2006, 08:45 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span>Well, i think i pointed out that conjurers do not have this huge utility that you somehow envision. We have 3 group utilities which fall within line or below line with what other classes also bring to group. As for this "crazy" dps, it has been said over and over again that with the mage pet a summoner will enter the tier 1 in terms of dps. Coupling that with the ability of a summoner to resummon a pet when it runs out of power, we have sustainability where others are essentially sitting on sideline when their power runs out on long fights.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yep necros do have more utility than conjurers and that is why Conj do more DPS than us and have many more pet proc's etc.</p><p>They have balanced necs and conj's pretty well in that regard.</p>

Chabisu

03-08-2006, 09:28 PM

Just for the record, if Necros and Conjs loose a little DPS I'm fine with it I guess. SOE has the run of the game and they make the changes they see best fitting. Whatever.But the amount of misinformation being posted as well as the just pure vile need of some of you people to see any other class nerfed is really frustrating...As a level 63 Necromancer I bring lots to groups. I don't deny that at all. I can do fairly nice damage, I can crowd control quite nicely, I help my healers with heals whenever possible, and many other things. Again, I don't deny that at all. But ANY similar level 'T1' dps class that is getting out parsed by me either is simply being lazy or hasn't upgraded their skills past the App4/Adept1 mark.To quote so many people here, that is the fact of the matter. When I group with somebody who knows their class, cares enough to equip themselves, and is considered T1 damage, they destroy me in parses I've seen or have done myself.The only time I have ever dragged ahead of one of these classes is when I have fought x2 mobs with them. (sadly due to my schedule I can't raid, so that's as tough as it gets for me) And as others have said, the reason behind that is because I can replenish my power during the course of the fight. Though I almost forgot, that tougher named benefit us here as well as they don't drop in seconds like the usual group mob does.Over the course of the majority of the grouping game, half of a Necromancer's dps abilities dont' even have time to do the damage that they could. Our dots don't mean much when a mob dies half way thru their duration. Our swarm pets don't mean much when they the mob dies half way thru, or since a recent LU they now can be riposted and AEed to death. Even our pets generally don't do damage the entire fight as there are pathing problems at times to start, as well as the fact that each time a group mob dies the pet tries to return to us which wastes time to get back.But none of this matters to any of you people that are gleefully cheering. And what's saddest about that is that you are only glad about this because you in effect get a boost to your respective slot on the DPS Teir regardless of what it actually means the next time you group or raid. Which is it does nothing for you but negatively affects you the next time you group with a Conjurer or Necromancer.If it's for the balance of the game I'm fine by it happening as I said, but it doesn't change the fact that at least as far as the adults in this crowd goes, you should be ashamed of the way you are acting. If I was any of your guildmates I'd be ashamed to admit it.

ke'la

03-08-2006, 09:56 PM

<div></div><p>I've seen complete BS posts that say necros are out DPSing wizards without pets. Thats complete BS unless the necro is using a bugged ability. All necro spells are WOEFULLY less powerful that a same level. The necro spell set take nibbles out of the mob, where as wizards take big fat man sized bites. And when played well and including pets, our little nibbles compare well with other classes big bites.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr><p>Accually there is a VERY simple way for a Conj/Necro to out dps a Wizzy(without thier pet). Kill groups of 5-10 vvv mobs. Wizzy's are Masters of Single Target Burst damage, but thier AoEs are comparitivly weak(thats what Warlocks are for). On the other hand Conj/Necro AoEs are Fairly Strong(not nearly as good at Warlocks but good none the less). As a Petless caster Summoners are basicly Jacks of All Traides and can thier for do Moderate AoE and Direct Damage. While Wizzy's Do Uber DD and Weakish AoEs, and Warlocks do Uber AoEs but weak DD. Ofcourse by weak I mean for a non-chanter Mage thier AoEs and DDs are still better then the rest of the Damage Tier's versions.</p>

Wingrider01

03-08-2006, 10:32 PM

<div></div>good to see that heritage quest items are not the only thing that transfered over from eq1 to eq2....

KBern

03-08-2006, 11:02 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ke'la wrote:<div></div><p>I've seen complete BS posts that say necros are out DPSing wizards without pets. Thats complete BS unless the necro is using a bugged ability. All necro spells are WOEFULLY less powerful that a same level. The necro spell set take nibbles out of the mob, where as wizards take big fat man sized bites. And when played well and including pets, our little nibbles compare well with other classes big bites.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr><p>Accually there is a VERY simple way for a Conj/Necro to out dps a Wizzy(without thier pet). Kill groups of 5-10 vvv mobs. Wizzy's are Masters of Single Target Burst damage, but thier AoEs are comparitivly weak(thats what Warlocks are for). On the other hand Conj/Necro AoEs are Fairly Strong(not nearly as good at Warlocks but good none the less). As a Petless caster Summoners are basicly Jacks of All Traides and can thier for do Moderate AoE and Direct Damage. While Wizzy's Do Uber DD and Weakish AoEs, and Warlocks do Uber AoEs but weak DD. Ofcourse by weak I mean for a non-chanter Mage thier AoEs and DDs are still better then the rest of the Damage Tier's versions.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Go look up some necro AOE's and get back to us and explain which ones are super powered.</p><p>We have a dot AOE, and a long recast Out of Encounter AOE/self heal which we can only use in certain situations because of the out of encounter nature.</p><p>We have one more that we randomly get over the course of fighting, but we cant use that but once every 6-12 fights depending on the random spells we get from our one debuff.</p><p>Dont post if you really dont have the facts.</p><p>Necros are not out DPSing any DPS class w/o a pet unless that person is AFK.</p>

Druzgotek

03-08-2006, 11:26 PM

<div></div>My necro does more damage than my inquisitor did, it is about time you nerfed my necro soe!!!

Gargamel

03-09-2006, 12:36 AM

<div></div>Hey jagoffs, you should NOT be comparing a ledendary/fables conj/necro with all adept3's or masters, in an epic fight against a yellow con single target mob using their DPS pet (IE THE IDEAL, at least for Necro) against 'average' ranger DPS.Necromancers are built from the bottom up for the long fight. With all the mana regen and DoT and HoT spells, we suck the shorter the battle or in grouped fights and only become more effective the harder/longer the battle. We'd get owned solo against such battles, but in a group we can approach the lead in DPS under SPEICAL circumstances. You can not 'nerf' that special circumstance, and would have to reduce pet effectiveness across the board (as was the plan) which would be DEVASTATING for soloers (not to mention weaking the class specific attribute/role) (note - they did do something similar to this in LU19, making our Dumbfire pets (DoT) vulnerable to non-specifically-targeted AoE's - which many end-game nameds cast in 360degrees in 30-45 second increments... basically reduces our 2 highest DoTs (dogs and zombie) to a maximum of 1/2 the original DPS... but only against those mobs... otherwise we can place dogs behind mob, and non-names usually only have 180degree AoE) That of course was after the 20% reduction in Lich we got in LU18, which was admitidily needed.There are PLENTY of fights where the conj/necro issn't anywhere NEAR the T1 DPS... its just 'end game' epics are not one of them. In those battles if ranger is slacking and T1 dps is 'lowered' or power runs out... then you're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right we can match theirs.Its the compensation for MUCH lower DPS in grouped or non-epic battles, and it ISN'T out of balance.Necro DPS with tank pet up, fighting even con or yellow mobs isn't anywhere near the ranger's in the same sitution.Stop cherrypicking the numbers.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Gargamel on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p>

LokiHellsson

03-09-2006, 01:39 AM

<div></div>Inquisitors banded together a few weeks ago, pooled our coppers and hired a Coercer who is using his mind-control spells to influence Blackguard and others on the SoE development team to nerf all DPS until Inquisitors regain our position as premier DPS class in EQ2. Moo-hahahahah.

03-09-2006, 01:45 AM

<blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.Fact: Summoners despite having incredible DPS ability also have amazing utility. * Rez, Invis, Call of Hero, Health and Power Heals, Life Taps, insane Pull range, StoneskinFact: Summoners are able to duplicate any other class in the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS....Fact: Summoners consistently recieve new abilities that just making others jaws drop. * IE: An AP ability that with 4 points gives them a perm buff with a 50% chance to crit hit on everything, with 8 points its 100%.Other DPS classes feel like we have to make sacrafices in order to the the damage we are able to deal. This is not the case with the summoner classes, not only do they do insane damage they also have a sick arsenal of utility abilities. Summoners I have spoeken with deny this adimentally... but you can't lie to a parser and you can't lie about the utilty spells they have.<div></div><hr></blockquote>WOOOOO Brokeback Cowboy, you're WAY exagerating!<b>Fact #1</b>, Summoners are SUPPOSED to be about duration DPS. When the bombs stop dropping from the pure DPS classes, summoners are designed to stay constant and steady. So in the end the tortous WILL win the race. But we don't out DPS anyone becasue we're constantly nuking for 4K damage.<b>Fact #2</b>, You're mixing spells... are you really that ignorant? This is like me saying your wizard gets all the abilities of both wizards and warlocks.Every mage class gets invis. Every mage got a save your but spell like Stoneskin and FD. Summoners are by no means power pumps. If you think hearts are all that, then you haven't played a summoner.<b>Fact #3</b>, Again, you're full of it. Conj can't heal... Necros are not even 25% of what a real healer is. Our DPS is also less in most cases, only when we have at least 20+ seconds to have pets and our personal spells kick in do we actually come close to DPS classes.The summoner class is a Jack of all trades class, but we're masters of none. When you just glance over the facts you miss the forest for the trees.<b>Fact #4</b>, Well this is just ignorance on your part... Check the test notes. This is a BUG. The spell text says the AA increases the chance to crit by 12.5% per point. If you know basic bath this means that that whatever the base WAS, it should have been increased by 12.5%. So if the base was 1%, it would go up to 1.125... At 8 points we'd double the base and have a 2% chance...This isn't how it was coded, it was coded so the 12.5 WAS the base... well at 8 points you get perma crits.. Its a bug, duh, they fixed it. After the changes, the base chance will be 12.5% AT 8 points, which is MUCH more in line with what everyone elses AAs are doing.You're abusing facts to make an argument thats plain wrong. Summoners give up being really the best at anything in order to be realy good at a couple. Both summoners also diverge on what they're good at, your inaccurate statements above seem to show that both summoners do everything, when in fact that is WRONG.Summoners also give up personal power in leu of having a pet. A petless summoner is the weakest mage by quite a bit. Without the bug you mentioned our personaly DPS is less that half the healer classes.

03-09-2006, 01:49 AM

<blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div>Hmm, sounds like someone has Summoner envy.<hr></blockquote>Its not envy in as much as its a desire to see the Developers stop playing favorites with the classes. Leveling and playing a summoner class does not require anymore work then to level and play any other class, so to have such disperportionate "rewards" for one class over any other given class is ridiculous.Playing Favorites:It comes down to one or two answers, either the devlopers are favoring summoners or they arn't smart enough or well enough informed to realize what they are doing. I happen to think the developers show a great deal of intelligence and I do not see them as being lazy. So they clearly must know about the current situation and approve of it. IE: They are playing favorites. Weither this is, as some people claim, because certain developers happen to play those class or because the developers responsible for working on those classes have some special love for them matters not. The facts all point to summoners as a whole being a class whose rewards for leveling are far greater then any other class.So by and large I keep my mouth shut, however, I just cant sit idle by when Conjurers have the nerve to cry out about something being unfair.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Or, you aren't smart enough to look at the whole picture. Your lack of ability to recognize that the two summoner classes are very different is an obvious sign of ignorance.Go play a summoner... for no other reason but to actually SEE that half the crap you're saying is wrong, but to see that the grass is NOT always greener.

TangBaBa

03-09-2006, 01:51 AM

<p>Just a side note - remember in EQ1 when we were uber utility? Need food/drink? BAM - summoned. Need bandages? BAM - summoned. Need a weapon that procs? BAM - summoned. Need weight reducing bags? BAM - summoned.</p><p>/em misses the good ole' days...</p>

KBern

03-09-2006, 01:52 AM

<div></div><p>And BTW, every one with a crit AA has that bug, not just summoners.</p><p>An SK in our guild has the 100% crit AA working for him, and as it has been pointed out, it is a bug.</p><p>Nice post Zald, but as you know, facts mean nothing in the face of myths and fables.</p><p>I guess I better go hunt down my damage shields for my pet and my stoneskin spell and coth...but I just cant seem to find them in my spell book.:smileysurprised:</p>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 08:51 AM

I just saw the original patch notes and I am outraged to say the least.If these patch notes ever make live in the current form, I promise here, I will cancel my subscription the same day.The patch notes contained nothing but a decrease in our dps. Not 1 puny increase in our utility. I bring the crappiest utility in a raid. Not a single stun or interrupt which even the tier1 dps classes have.If you want to decrease our dps, the same day, the same patch and in the same notes, we should get a full tier of utility more than wizards/ warlocks. Full 1 tier of utility more.

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 10:17 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I really can't believe that a damage nerf for necros is on the cards. I spent 1 hour preparing this table which translates into thousands of dollars for my company... not trying to showoff, just trying to get the point across that I am so outraged.So necros should be tier2 dps ? Well, ok, then where is my utility as compared to wizards who should be tier1 dps ?<a target="_blank" href="http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparison1st.jpg"></a><img src="http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/3613/comparison3tj.jpg">So next time anyone dares talk out necro dps talk about our utility.This is comparison of raid utility. I can do a similar comparison for group utility. We have different pets, wizards have 4 stuns and aoe root etc. but lets not get into that.<p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:05 AM</span></p>

Shardrael

03-09-2006, 10:17 AM

<div></div>you shouldnt threaten to cancel because you dont like the sound of something, at the very least way tell you experience it for yourself and then make your decision, anything less is rather sheep like imo.....

Runelaron

03-09-2006, 11:43 AM

<div></div><font color="#3366cc">Thank you very much KENAZEER!</font>

curtlewis

03-09-2006, 11:53 AM

The problem with Summoners is mostly that Conjurors are heavily over powered. Their nukes are 90% of a Wizard and their pet is 50% what they are. Add in 24 mob pull AoE situations and they'll do triple the damage of a Wizard (4000dps vs 1600dps). How does this fit in the balance tree? It doesn't.The solution is a nerf to Conjurors, and a boost to Wizards and Warlocks. Done properly, this will put each class in it's proper Tier. Wizards and Warlocks do NOT in any situation do Tier 1 DPS damage, when they should in most situations, out damage other Tier 1 DPS classes due to the armor/hp disadvantage.Rangers would get a boost after their long overdue castration. Assassins would stay where they are. Conjurors would drop to their Tier of damage and Sorcerors would actually be DOING their Tier of damage for the first time in the game's release.Necros might, after this is done, fall into their proper spot and be able to stay as they are.

Noaani

03-09-2006, 01:19 PM

<div></div><p>Thats an interesting littel chart you made up thereprince_sd. Interesting in that you claim it is raid utility, yet you include wizard "abilities" that are seldom, if ever, used in solo/group play, let alone on raids. You also seem to have missed out a few necro utility spells on there.</p><p>First, Icebound Gift is not, nor has it ever been, a damage shield. What it does is augments everyone in the wizards group, for 12 seconds, extra damage from all non fire based spells they cast, and the slow effest of this spell, on a raid, is totally useless. This spell would be classed as a damage spell, not utility.</p><p>Second is evac. As you said yourself, not useful on raids. However, you have a small discrepancy in the information you have given. Portal is, as you have stated, a level 24 spell, however, it is a self only evac. Depart, which we get at level 38, is our group evac. Small thing, but if you are going to make a chart like this, facts should be accurate.</p><p>Third, Lapse, totally useless on a raid, the spell discription even says it does not work on epic targets, as does every other interrrupt in the game.</p><p>Fourth, Singularity, this has a chance to proc when the player you cast the spell on gets hit. Great spell to put on the MT on a raid, as they, in theroy, are the only one taking the hits. Problem is, it is only able to be cast on a member of your own group, and we tend to not put wizards in the MT group. So again, this spell is totally worthless on a raid.</p><p>Now to look at what you have put down for necro utility.</p><p>Ok, so you buff a little less resistance than a wizard (assuming you got your facts right, and used the same quality spell for the comparison, which, looking at your over all accuracy, sorry, but i have doubts). You buff Sta instead of Str, on a raid Sta is more useful to most groups that would have a wizard or necro in, and most melee DPS classes, if not solo at least on a raid, should be bufed to max str. You claim that necro rezz is useless. i disagree, any class that can rezz a fallen raid member, without taking a healer away from the MT, is a great asset to any raid. FD is also useful on raids, especially if you dont have a monk on hand.</p><p>Sacrificial Heart, great spell, we get something comparible called Essential Intromission. There are a few things that set these two apart. First, a necro cast Sacrificial Heart on you, all you get is a little heart in your inventory, but a wizard cast Essential Intromission and you get a small increase in power. Now, noth spells have a 30 second recast timer, however, hearts have three charges, so that 30 second wait between giving someone a heart lasts them for three shots of power. Also, hearts can, and should be, given out before any pull on a raid, so every member of the raid has a heart (two if you are smart and know that the T5 and T7 can both be in your inventory at the same time) so everyone in the raid should benifit from a necros abitlity to hand out power. Essential Intromission on the other hand is onl sueful if the target is not at full power, and still only castable every 30 seconds. So, in short, everyone on a raid can and should benifit from Sacrificial Hearts from necros, but only a select few, healers or MT, will get any benifit, and a much smaller benifit it is, from a wizards Essential Intromission.</p><p>Now, you compleatly forgot to mention the necro spells fright and constrict. Sure, they are not useable on epic mobs, but you included Lapse as a wizard utility that is useful on raids, so these two should be included in your table as well. Constrict, if it were to be used, would have about the same effect as Lapse. Fright however, if used in the right circumstances, could prove to be a little more usefull, though still not worth much on a raid.</p><p>All up, Necros and Conjurers, have a good amount of utility. They have the ability to adapt to diffrent circumstances better then any other class, and, it seems, do not sacrifice any damage output for all of this. sure. you say that in groups you dont get to use your full potential, well, look again at sorcerers. a group of a tank, healer, wizard, ranger and assassin. Pull a yellow con ^^^ mob, necro sends pet in, assassin and ranger both go in with 0.5 second casting CA's and the poor wizard is left to cast one of his 2 second, rather low damage spells before the mob is dead. Sure, having spells like Ice Comet is great, but the 4 second cast timer means it is often not cast in groups, at least as much as we would like, and the 45 second recast timer means it is cast once, maybe twice, on a raid mob before it is dead.</p><p>Now, i am not going to put my hand up and say i think necros (or Conjurers) should be nerfed, as they are a fun class to play as they are. What i will say is that i think other classes should be bought in line with them in terms of sustained DPS, maybe make sorcerers power conversion a little more powerful, maybe make our spells use less power ( same can be said, although to a lesser extent, to other DPS classes).</p><p>Somone is going to come in and say i have summoner envy, and i shoud roll a necro or something, but remember, any class that says these things ( warlock pre LU#13, ranger pre LU#20) is the next class to be nerfed, sadly.</p><p> </p>

Anlari

03-09-2006, 05:31 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>curtlewis wrote:The problem with Summoners is mostly that Conjurors are heavily over powered. Their nukes are 90% of a Wizard and their pet is 50% what they are. Add in 24 mob pull AoE situations and they'll do triple the damage of a Wizard (4000dps vs 1600dps). How does this fit in the balance tree? It doesn't.The solution is a nerf to Conjurors, and a boost to Wizards and Warlocks. Done properly, this will put each class in it's proper Tier. Wizards and Warlocks do NOT in any situation do Tier 1 DPS damage, when they should in most situations, out damage other Tier 1 DPS classes due to the armor/hp disadvantage.Rangers would get a boost after their long overdue castration. Assassins would stay where they are. Conjurors would drop to their Tier of damage and Sorcerors would actually be DOING their Tier of damage for the first time in the game's release.Necros might, after this is done, fall into their proper spot and be able to stay as they are.<hr></blockquote>Realy, so my warlock's DD spells easily do about 4 times the damage of my conjurer's and thats 90%? In a group of small mobs, of corse I will kill the mobs faster then a wizard, I have three AOE spells, but agaisnt a single mob the wizard would out damage me in a heartbeat. That doesn't make the wizard broken. Also, my warlock has never not been tier 1 DPS unless I was just conserving power, and I was under the impression that wizards were a bet bettere then warlocks, so I think you seriously need to try something else.

Firm

03-09-2006, 06:54 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I really can't believe that a damage nerf for necros is on the cards. I spent 1 hour preparing this table which translates into thousands of dollars for my company... not trying to showoff, just trying to get the point across that I am so outraged.So necros should be tier2 dps ? Well, ok, then where is my utility as compared to wizards who should be tier1 dps ?<a target="_blank" href="http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparison1st.jpg">http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparison1st.jpg</a>So next time anyone dares talk out necro dps talk about our utility.This is comparison of raid utility. I can do a similar comparison for group utility. We have different pets, wizards have 4 stuns and aoe root etc. but lets not get into that.Edit: i don't know why the image is not showing.<p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Haven't you forgot some important little thing to mention in your list?</p><p>But since you seem not to see your pet as utitlity, maybe they should take it away from you... including all buffs, heals etc you get...</p><p>Yeah right... then you need to root like a wizard... cant CC with off-tanking... your mana gain will hit your own health... etc etc</p><p>Man I love the necro... with adept III I managed splitpaw half afk... one if not the most versatile class in the game... and you seriously want to tell us... a summoner has less utility then a wizard?</p><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet and Tier 3 Damage with Tank Pet. And believe it or not... I think SOE will get you there... sooner or later... so get used to it and enjoy your >T1 Damage as long as it is still there...</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 AM</span></p>

Tokam

03-09-2006, 07:28 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet and Tier 3 Damage with Tank Pet. And believe it or not... I think SOE will get you there... sooner or later... so get used to it and enjoy your >T1 Damage as long as it is still there...</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p><span>Actually we (necros) are supposed to be tier 1 dps with a scout / mage pet and a suitably long fight (ie not 30 secs) as I understand the tiering system. We are not supposed to be tier 1 burst dps any more than we are meant to be consistently tier 2 dps. </span></p><p><span>I spend most of my time grouped with end game players as part of a end content raiding guild (ie everyone is mostly mastered out and at their various respective caps), so when I'm not cooking I’m either helping to grind for xp or helping to burn down raid mobs. If i'm not in the top 5 for a x 4 mob it's either immune to disease or I had a major ninja afk issue. Grouped for xp I expect to be outclassed by tier 2 (brigands <span>et al</span>) unless it is a serious named undercon, where I would expect tier 2 parity. Maybe it is due to the skill / spell level of people that I group with but my parses just are not showing my encroachment into tier 1 territory.</span></p>

Firm

03-09-2006, 07:49 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Sulpeel wrote:</p><p><span>Actually we (necros) are supposed to be tier 1 dps with a scout / mage pet and a suitably long fight (ie not 30 secs) as I understand the tiering system. We are not supposed to be tier 1 burst dps any more than we are meant to be consistently tier 2 dps. </span></p><hr></blockquote><p>One of the devs posted the tier chart some time ago. People asked about wether they mean sustained or burst damage etc. No answer. For me it is simple... under no circumstances should any Tier 2 outdamage a Tier 1, sustained or not. Why? Wizards, Warlocks, Assassin and Rangers are about Damage and nothing else. If summoners with better utitlity do as much damage as a Wizard... why would anyone ever play a Wizard? Why should they be picked in Raids? And as of now... Wizards actually face these troubles...</p><p>See a brigand... they do less damage then an assassin... why should they be picked in raids? Because they can debuff very nice... they bring utility... and can also do T2 damage... through their debuffs they help all to make more damage... thus they are wanted... but not for damage... and not many of them... If you choose a wizard... you will choose it because you want to add some raw extra damage... thats how it should be... as of now? You would choose a necro... cause they do better damage... you would choose a ranger... who do way better damage...</p><p>Everyone has its place and role... the role of a necro or conjurer is NOT pure dps... these things will be brought into line sooner or later...</p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:54 AM</span></p>

Styk

03-09-2006, 08:04 PM

<div></div><p>I Sugest all Sorceror types dont even respond about Summoner DPS, utility etc because they just dont understand that they are suppose to be Tier 2 dps AT BEST..... let them have there day, because we all know SoE is gonna put them in their place, ( only thing that sucks is SoE should have had it right the first time around instead of giving certain classes so much power just to take it away ) Took SoE 6 months for Rangers to get fixed ( they fix will be complete when they patch in the upped combat art dmg etc in LU 21 ) ....</p><p>Summoners don't get mad when SoE puts yall in Tier 2 dps, because that is where you were suppose to be post LU 13...</p><p>For now thou let it die, because its just gonna get silly with all the class bashing etc going on atm</p>

Firm

03-09-2006, 08:21 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:<div></div><p>I Sugest all Sorceror types dont even respond about Summoner DPS, utility etc because they just dont understand that they are suppose to be Tier 2 dps AT BEST..... let them have there day, because we all know SoE is gonna put them in their place, ( only thing that sucks is SoE should have had it right the first time around instead of giving certain classes so much power just to take it away ) Took SoE 6 months for Rangers to get fixed ( they fix will be complete when they patch in the upped combat art dmg etc in LU 21 ) ....</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>That is in fact one thing SoE could really do much better. I can understand that people who rolled their toon will mostly consider the situation as it is, thus get upset if they get twieked. If SoE would loud, clearly and repeatingly say how it is supposed to be. Like: "We know that rangers do to much damage in comparison... we are going to fix this... but we are working on the best way to do this...". And also respond in posts like "choose a necro they are best DPS" with a mod or dev that clearly says "the DPS will be tuned..." Then at least no one can say they didnt know... thus they cant complain... and in reverse people would choose more on taste then on things like "he always parses #1".</p><p>Just MHO ^^</p><p> </p>

Tokam

03-09-2006, 08:24 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p> </p></blockquote><p>One of the devs posted the tier chart some time ago. People asked about wether they mean sustained or burst damage etc. No answer. For me it is simple... under no circumstances should any Tier 2 outdamage a Tier 1, sustained or not. Why? Wizards, Warlocks, Assassin and Rangers are about Damage and nothing else. If summoners with better utitlity do as much damage as a Wizard... why would anyone ever play a Wizard? Why should they be picked in Raids? And as of now... Wizards actually face these troubles...</p><p>See a brigand... they do less damage then an assassin... why should they be picked in raids? Because they can debuff very nice... they bring utility... and can also do T2 damage... through their debuffs they help all to make more damage... thus they are wanted... but not for damage... and not many of them... If you choose a wizard... you will choose it because you want to add some raw extra damage... thats how it should be... as of now? You would choose a necro... cause they do better damage... you would choose a ranger... who do way better damage...</p><p>Everyone has its place and role... the role of a necro or conjurer is NOT pure dps... these things will be brought into line sooner or later...</p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>2 points - firsly the poor ol' brigands have had their AR skill nerfed. Id love to watch a Brig debuff t6 and t7 raid content now (and I love the poor little hamburgling pirates <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p>2nd - Sorcs will never ever keep up with me in raids unless they are in a bard group and I am not. This is because we have in combat power regen and procs, it turns the necro into a raid animal but I feel that we have only limited dps contributions to make in a short group fight. Lich has already been nerfed to give the rest of the raiding world a fighting chance (50% proc damage reduction) which brought us more into line with other t1 classes in raids. If you think that necros are not designed to be T1 raid dps go look at their spell lines - if you think that we are hitting t1 dps in a group situation, again, go look at our spell lines.</p>

broda

03-09-2006, 08:26 PM

you can look here: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=12520&page=3for a comparison of conjuror "utility" vs sorcerer utilityheres a short preview:conjurors can do the following that wizards and warlocks cannot:-sacrifice pet for group heal and power-75% snare-call of the herolets see what wizards have that conjs do not:- single target stifle + interrupt- decrease their hate (without being hit)- buff that lets ally increase power when hit in combat- evac- group wide spell proc that does damage and snares- mez- single target massive damage + knockback + blur- aoe snare that roots when target attacks- group rootso it looks to me that wizards actually have more utility than conjurors! and they are tier 1 class whereas conjurors are not. what are you trying to argue here? where is the wonderful utility that rivals brigands and swashbucklers? i dont know if its just me, but i dont see it.and btw, conjurors dont do 90% of wizard nukes, haha. go duel a conjuror without a pet and see if he gets you to 90% before he dies.point of the story: conjurors should be tier 1 dps. they bring nothing to the table except dps (that isnt already covered by other t1 dps classes)<div></div>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 08:28 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet ...</p><hr></blockquote>Where is it ? Tell me oh great intelligent sorceror . WHERE THE HECK IS MY UTILITY ?If you can't even read a nice comparison chart i put up there i think you need more help.</span></div>

broda

03-09-2006, 08:31 PM

also if you want to bring conjurors dps down so badly on raids where they will no longer parse at the top (im sure its all about the parser) all you have to do is remove/change elemental vestments spell. stop touching our pets cause it will hurt us in pvp, solo, groupping, as well as your parse obsessed raids-harro, 53 conjuror, nagafen<div></div>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 08:35 PM

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Noaani wrote:<div></div><p>Ok, so you buff a little less resistance than a wizard (assuming you got your facts right, and used the same quality spell for the comparison, which, looking at your over all accuracy, sorry, but i have doubts). You buff Sta instead of Str, on a raid Sta is more useful to most groups that would have a wizard or necro in, and most melee DPS classes, if not solo at least on a raid, should be bufed to max str. You claim that necro rezz is useless. i disagree, any class that can rezz a fallen raid member, without taking a healer away from the MT, is a great asset to any raid. FD is also useful on raids, especially if you dont have a monk on hand.</p><p></p><p>Yes we do buff less. For the record both are adept1 spells.</p><p>Nice spin on STA being more important than STR. Thats bull. Sta gives more hp while STR gives more damage. I am not saying either is more useful but you better not say that.</p><p>Necro rez is useless !!!!!!!!!!!</p><p>I will be thrown out of the raid if i rez someone. Not the healer, but the pally and the dirge rez people. Necros rez with 15% health and 0% power at master1. If i rez someone, i will be shouted at because now that person has to wait for ever just to get to full power.</p><p>Necro rez is the worst piece of crap utility in raids. I shouldn't have even mentioned it but i did because if i hadn't there would be a 100posts saying i didn't.</p></blockquote></span></div><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:36 AM</span></p>

TwistedFaith

03-09-2006, 08:39 PM

Anyone who seriously believes that Conjurers are not vastly overpowered in raids is deluding themselves.I raid a LOT and the gap between a well played conjurer and ANY of the supposedly t1 classes is huge.Bizzarely with the ranger nerf soe has nearly got the t1 dps classes balanced well, however I dont care what anyone says conjurers are so far ahead of anyone else it's a joke.How SoE go about fixing this, who knows.Ohh and I have a lvl 50 necro also and anyone who says necros dont have utlity is talking out of their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. My necro is like inspector gadget when compared to my ranger, and he's also around 1000% easier to solo with.Personally I dont see SoE nerfing summoners to bad, even with a 50% nerf across the board you'll still be around T1 dps easily.

broda

03-09-2006, 08:44 PM

<div></div>quote: I raid a LOT and the gap between a well played conjurer and ANY of the supposedly t1 classes is huge.how to do dps as conjuror on a raid 101:step 1: send scout pet to attackstep 2: cast elemental vestmentsstep 3: repeatedly cast your level 20 fireshieldstep 4: when elemental vestments runs out you can do whatever you want to increase your dps some moreas you can see, its not about the pet. its about a single ability. conjurors do NOT need a nerf across the board. they should be tier 1 dps on raids cause they can do nothing else. why would raids even bring them, given a choice of other people to take, if they did subpar dps to wizards? if they MUST be nerfed, then there is a single spell that allows them to parse higher than you.<div></div><p>Message Edited by brodach on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:45 AM</span></p>

Geothe

03-09-2006, 08:45 PM

<div></div><div>Who cares about raid balancing. That is the minority of the content in the game, under .1% of it.</div><div>Things should be balanced around the group level. That is all the vast majority of the players of this game take part in regularly.</div><div> </div><div>As far as I'm concerned, you number-obsessed "1337" raiders can just stick it where the sun dont shine.</div>

Amocus

03-09-2006, 08:58 PM

What about those of us that don't raid? Raid, Raid, Raid, that's all you guys ever talk about. How about the vast majority of us who play the game who don't raid, could care less about raiding, and don't care if we are Tier1, Tier2, Tier3..we just play?Comon, lighten up.Amocus57 ConjGuild Leader, ThunderforgeOasis<div></div>

Dr_Cyr

03-09-2006, 09:01 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Raid balancing is a vast MAJORITY of the game once you hit higher levels. Indeed, its just about the ONLY game once you cap. And thats where the most loyal customers are: capped most of the time. As for nerfing, necros and conjurers can go whine elsewhere. I have a guardian and a coercer in my stable of high level charactres and neither can hold a candle in ease of playability and ability of grouping compared to my leveling-up Necro.You want nerfed, try soloing as a guardian. Or being the SECOND guardian in a raid - that is, not really needed nor wanted in terms of role, better replaced by a DPS tank.You want nerfed on raids, go be a coercer for a while. Almsot all your best and most commonly used spells are not even needed on most raids, and even if they were, the epics are <b><i>immune</i></b> to the effects of your (CC) main spells. You can do raids on Autofollow and be a manabot, because thats the only spells of yours that are of any use. And you dare not use your pet unless you want to wipe the raid.So until you try running with a pet that takes 3 conc slot, is different every time, doesn't zone with you, nerfed to no-arrow no matter what, and randomly aggros on you which can kill you or train a zone on you, and most of your other abilities are completely useless agains Epic and a lot of the new KoS Heroic mobs, and other classes can regen power just about as well as you (bards) and have better buffs for the tanks... And do all that with NO escape spell - thats right, no FD, no evac. You pull it either you kill it or you die. You have no way out.Well AFTER that, then you can whine. Until then just shut yer whiney pie-holes - you've had it easy and been overpowered for far too long, and way off the balance in terms of ability to solo and add to groups.<p>Message Edited by Dr_Cyrus on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:13 PM</span></p>

Jai1

03-09-2006, 09:02 PM

<div></div><div>I approached my character selected with lots of research into the classes. I came from EQ1 with alt-itis. I had one of every class over 20 and 5 over 50. Course I played the game for 6 years and had multiple account. I was a boxer. I wanted to focus on one toon for EQ2. Has since changed but 3 isnt bad.</div><div> </div><div>I was also a big raider, a chanter and played a big role in raids. I wanted a DPS class. I basically choose a necro for FD and rez. Yep, I wanted to save groups and raids. I also read into Lich, hearts and pet taps as having longevity in fights. </div><div> </div><div>It's no secret that necros, and I only speak for them, are tops in the DPS parses on long epic encounters. They do not always last long enough to see our full potential. Places like PPtR, we do lots of damage since its AoE. It's situational though. If we need a nerf it to our power consumption.</div><div> </div><div>So we have sustained DPS. However, we don't have a sustained ability to keep those numbers high. Raiding yes but not always in group. Getting high DPS for a necro, maybe any class, is a rhythm and a bit of luck. I can hit about 350-400 DPS mobs a bit higher up if my pets do about 200 of those and I am able to get off all my spells, have them stick, and hopefully someones being a little lazy. When T1 DPS like Wizards do tons of damage, mine goes down. This is simple because they shortened the fight.</div><div> </div><div>Mosts fights are short and we have to compensate. We have 2 quick damage spell. Rot and lifetap. If we can do the triple combo, it's like one big DD. The rest of our spells have to be cast first. I guess it depends on playstyle as to the order but they all do a portion of the potential usually because you get the last one off when the ^^^ is half dead. I enjoy seeing a mob heal itself because I know my spells will keep ticking.</div><div> </div><div>I think some of you are a little off as to the DPS/Utility tradeoff. I'm not so sure it's like Sony give us the healing and knocks us down a tier. The trade off comes in gameplay. Remember I said that maintaining high DPS is a rhythm. If we don't get all our spells out which takes the duration of the fights we go down. If I'm fearing, rooting or healing I don't get the chance to lay down the damage. CC comes mostly off pulls. Most our damage it set in the begining. I have to fear right away or else the tank may try to hit it. I also spend a lot of time watching and analysing whats going on. I will sometimes only CC if the pull looks bad. I don't want to be on the hate list and be able to rez, heal. So there's the trade off.</div><div> </div><div>Some may say that we are great healers for a DPS class. Me especially, I have a master Abate Life and am taking MII Diplace. I will miss my MII Lifetap but am excited about this next tier. It's possible to get about 400s DPS and get off 3 or so heals. Has to be a longer fight and you need the rhythm. Haven't done it often but its a great feeling. That's burst potential. My sustained damage, when not distracted is around 250 with a DPS pet. Others just take out too big of a chunk. Shorter fight... less DPS.</div><div> </div><div>I have heard the comment the summoners are the FotD and the Devs must be playing them. Well, they probably rolled them after LU13 like the rest. For those that leveled 1-50 before this, remember harder times. We just weren't a DPS class and thats what I thought I got into. T2-T3 I can handle. I lie somewhere in T4-T5 when I can focus on damage anyways. Necro's can be amazing to play. Maybe we need a nerf. If that would make some happy, go figure. I'll end it with we will never be gimped to the point we were before LU13 again. So I can handle it.</div>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 09:20 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dr_Cyrus wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>As for nerfing, necros and conjurers can go whine elsewhere. I have a guardian and a coercer in my stable of high level charactres and neither can hold a candle in ease of playability and ability of grouping compared to my leveling-up Necro.Are you telling me necros should be broken because guardians and coercers are broken currently ?And you are asking to nerf a class you don't even play and you call us whiners ?Dude you are mental.</blockquote></span></div>

Amocus

03-09-2006, 09:23 PM

You know I was thinking - dangerous I know - I play a lot of alts, I'm sure many of you do to.Do you ever sit there and think while playing say..your Warlock..Gee, my Conj kills quicker than my Warlock, i sure wish sony would nerf my Conj. Or, your playing your Pally and think. Gee, my Guardian has no way to heal himself, they'd better nerf my pally so he can' t heal either.Maybe it's me, but these are things I seldom worry about. When I play my different chacters, I expect them to be different. I don't think, gee, would't it be nice if all my toons could do everything, MAN, would that be fun.It sounds to me as if that's what most of you want. You want one super toon that can do it all. Dps/tank/utility/bake bread, everything. I just don't understand why it's so hard to just figure out what your character is good at, and play it that way. Ok, my Pally can't dps nearly as good as my Conj. It takes him a LOT longer to solo a mob. Big freakin' deal. They are different. By the same token my Conj could be killed by a paper cut and my Pally can't. Should I demand the same mitigation?Now I realize those are different classes by nature, but that's why I chose to use them for this example. If we are crying that all DPS classes should be in a certain tier, why can't we cry that we want to be in a similar tier as one of the tank classes? If we are tier2 dps, then damit, we should be able to stand hits like a tier 2 tank,When does it stop? ..to re-phrase a famous quote out of LA.."Cant' we all..just play?"<div></div>

Firm

03-09-2006, 09:24 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet ...</p><hr></blockquote>Where is it ? Tell me oh great intelligent sorceror . WHERE THE HECK IS MY UTILITY ?If you can't even read a nice comparison chart i put up there i think you need more help.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to burst your presumptions... but I am not a sorceror... I am not even one of the T1 damage classes. But I do have a necro... And I think that the tiers that soe (not me) comunicated are just right as they are there. And honestly, if you dont know what your utility is above the spells you listed... learn your class. You are the most versatile class... thats your strength... and you are the only real solo class... you can switch from defensive to offensive with your pet and even can fine tune the pet with the proper stances. You will never die in solo PvE, except if youre to sleepy ^^ You are even a healer (for your pet)...</p><p>If you think you should be T1, how about remove your pet completly and just up your spells a bit to be on par. Given then maybe you need some more utility... sorry but you cant have all... since you dont think your pets are any usefull... maybe give them to wizards... sure they will love it... yeah big nukes and a pet to hold the agro... *waves with the whole fence*</p><p>But I will stop now...</p><p>One last word... you should stop to delude yourself... and look at what you have with a summoner in T2... a still more then great class... if you did it because of the damage... you choosed the wrong class...</p><p> </p><p> </p>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 09:33 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet ...</p><hr></blockquote>Where is it ? Tell me oh great intelligent sorceror . WHERE THE HECK IS MY UTILITY ?If you can't even read a nice comparison chart i put up there i think you need more help.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>If you think you should be T1, how about remove your pet completly and just up your spells a bit to be on par. Given then maybe you need some more utility... sorry but you cant have all... since you dont think your pets are any usefull... maybe give them to wizards... sure they will love it... yeah big nukes and a pet to hold the agro... *waves with the whole fence*</p><p>But I will stop now...</p><p>One last word... you should stop to delude yourself... and look at what you have with a summoner in T2... a still more then great class... if you did it because of the damage... you choosed the wrong class...</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Dude wake up. thats a comparison of raid utility. And yes 3 different pets are useless in a raid.I could do a comparison chart for group utility too. Believe me you will be shocked the kind of stuns, interrupts, aoe root that a wizard has in his arsenal. But i'll leave that to you. Because you have done nothing besides hollow words.And Yes pets are useful in groups but its just a different playstyle from the stun & root style of the wizard. Remove our pet and we won't even be able to solo greys.And i never said i wanted tier1 dps. Go read every post of mine. Not one place have i said i want tier1 dps. i have always said give me tier2 dps IF AND ONLY IF i have 1 full tier of utility more than wizards/ warlocks.</span></div>

Jai1

03-09-2006, 09:52 PM

<div></div><p>A lot of raid mobs AoE. They basically one shot all of the pets except tanks. I can make mine last a bit longer using the heal staff but he's still dead soon. Sure, I could joust it. Lot of times we just call ranged fight. A lot of times I let my pet die and just cast spells on it. Pet takes about as long to cast as he lasts. I wouldn't be doing really any damage if I just chain cast pets. </p><p>Many of you base your perception of our DPS when we hit our peaks and think we can sustain it. That isn't always the case and I'd say we have vastly far more potential than is ever realized in the game. You can't base the class's balance off of the peak DPS situations. Have to ave it out.</p>

Obadiah

03-09-2006, 09:55 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kenazeer wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Runelaron wrote:<div></div><font color="#3366cc">Can anyone repost what the origonal notes said? I would just like to know.</font><hr></blockquote><div>Conjuror changes:- Stoneskin now has no power cost, a 5 minute reuse timer instead of 15, and fires a point blank AoE hate decrease.- The Air Pet has less of a DPS bonus than it used to.- The Air Pet's Furystorm ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Air Pet's Galestorm ability had its damage reduced, reuse timer increased, and power cost lowered.- The Fire Pet's Shocking Flames ability had its damage reduced.- The Fire Pet's Wave of Flames ability had its damage reduced.- The Fire Pet's Storm of Flames ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.Necromancer changes:- Deathly Pallor now has no power cost and a 5 minute reuse timer instead of 15.- The Shade Pet has less of a DPS bonus than it used to.- The Shade Pet's Shadestrike ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Shade Pet's Acidity ability had its damage reduced, reuse timer increased, and power cost lowered.- The Mage Pet's Grim Devastation ability had its damage reduced and power cost lowered.- The Scout Pet will now use the proper combat arts more consistently and will correctly gain a new combat art at level 60.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for posting that amid the babble. Would have been nice had Blackguard retained this so there wasn't so much speculation and fear.</p><p>If those are the original notes, that doesn't sound so bad. S'pose that depends on how MUCH all of the above was reduced. I like the 5 minute timer on Deathly Pallor, that's for darn sure. Since I can't <strong>buy a freaking group</strong> in Solusek's Eye FD is a common occurrence. :smileyvery-happy:</p>

Firm

03-09-2006, 10:05 PM

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet ...</p><hr></blockquote>Where is it ? Tell me oh great intelligent sorceror . WHERE THE HECK IS MY UTILITY ?If you can't even read a nice comparison chart i put up there i think you need more help.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>If you think you should be T1, how about remove your pet completly and just up your spells a bit to be on par. Given then maybe you need some more utility... sorry but you cant have all... since you dont think your pets are any usefull... maybe give them to wizards... sure they will love it... yeah big nukes and a pet to hold the agro... *waves with the whole fence*</p><p>But I will stop now...</p><p>One last word... you should stop to delude yourself... and look at what you have with a summoner in T2... a still more then great class... if you did it because of the damage... you choosed the wrong class...</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Dude wake up. thats a comparison of raid utility. And yes 3 different pets are useless in a raid.<font color="#ffff00">As someone already said... Raid is not all... the game is balanced over all... you are the best solo class ever... and still can compete with others very well...</font>I could do a comparison chart for group utility too. Believe me you will be shocked the kind of stuns, interrupts, aoe root that a wizard has in his arsenal. But i'll leave that to you. Because you have done nothing besides hollow words.And Yes pets are useful in groups but its just a different playstyle from the stun & root style of the wizard. Remove our pet and we won't even be able to solo greys.<font color="#ffff00">I think you would be shocked if you learn that your pets do more then tank and dps... ever seen your pet do a knockback? Since kos you can even fire that stuff at will... (aa first ability) and I can tell you the taunts are really annoying for your enemy in PvP...And btw aoe root = aoe taunt of your pet... only that your taunt is not breaking on damage...</font>And i never said i wanted tier1 dps. Go read every post of mine. Not one place have i said i want tier1 dps. i have always said give me tier2 dps IF AND ONLY IF i have 1 full tier of utility more than wizards/ warlocks.<font color="#ffff00">Again, you have a lot of utility... just it doesnt fit into your comparison chart... because it has something to do with your pets <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></font></span></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:06 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p>

prince_sd

03-09-2006, 10:11 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>You got way more utility... thats why you are only supposed to be Tier 2 Damage with Damage Pet ...</p><hr></blockquote>Where is it ? Tell me oh great intelligent sorceror . WHERE THE HECK IS MY UTILITY ?If you can't even read a nice comparison chart i put up there i think you need more help.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>If you think you should be T1, how about remove your pet completly and just up your spells a bit to be on par. Given then maybe you need some more utility... sorry but you cant have all... since you dont think your pets are any usefull... maybe give them to wizards... sure they will love it... yeah big nukes and a pet to hold the agro... *waves with the whole fence*</p><p>But I will stop now...</p><p>One last word... you should stop to delude yourself... and look at what you have with a summoner in T2... a still more then great class... if you did it because of the damage... you choosed the wrong class...</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Dude wake up. thats a comparison of raid utility. And yes 3 different pets are useless in a raid.<font color="#ffff00">As someone already said... Raid is not all... the game is balanced over all... you are the best solo class ever... and still can compete with others very well...<font color="#cc0000">Why didn't you read 1 line down ? Its right here. Read it.</font></font>I could do a comparison chart for group utility too. Believe me you will be shocked the kind of stuns, interrupts, aoe root that a wizard has in his arsenal. But i'll leave that to you. Because you have done nothing besides hollow words.<font color="#cc0000">You have some nerve to talk about our raid dps when you compare dps tiers and talk about about our pvp utility when it comes to utility. </font></span></div></blockquote></span></blockquote></span></div>

Carna

03-09-2006, 11:50 PM

<div></div>Are we still arguing with them as to why their pet alone shouldn't be doing the damage of a T2 Scout?.... just ignore them. They're being put back in their bracket whether they think they should be or not.

Geothe

03-10-2006, 12:50 AM

<div></div><p>an often ignored line by those people that live and breathe the "DPS Tree." (thanks to who ever posted this in another thread too).</p><p></p><hr>Moorgard wrote:The DPS list I posted is not a rigid hierarchy that allows no deviation. There can and will be variations, including situations where particular classes can shine. Player skill and knowledge are a huge part of that<hr><p> </p>

Jai1

03-10-2006, 01:53 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:Are we still arguing with them as to why their pet alone shouldn't be doing the damage of a T2 Scout?.... just ignore them. They're being put back in their bracket whether they think they should be or not<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Let's not confuse the power of low level summoners as a base of how to correct the situation. I can tell you that my scout pet at T7 doesn't come close to equally the damage of a T7 scout. My pet tank can't tank better than a player tank. I think these are misperceptions. I don't out damage T1 consistantly in groups if ever. When I do, they just weren't trying and because they weren't trying, the fight laster longer and my spells lasted more of a duration. I think things here are a little blown out of proportion. I'll wait and see what Sony thinks up as a remedy and just how much that puts us back in our bracket. I just don't see us being knock back out of top raid DPS so don't get your hopes up. </p>

AfflictedOne

03-10-2006, 04:56 AM

Hehe this reminds me of all the ranger posts a while back about how they were sup'd to be doing the damage they were doing. Only difference is they were intended to be T1 damage. I think it's not so much an if as a when and by how much. If it's the same as what rangers got then you're looking at about 3-500 dps going full out with full fabled and masters. And yes I've seen a lot of parses and summoners = the new rangers. Welcome to defending your class for a few months and then being blindsided by it's destruction with little to no testing.<div></div>

retro_guy

03-10-2006, 12:31 PM

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:had me excited for a minute.. here i was thinking you guys were actually aware that summoners are doing fantastic damage.. silly me.I expect it'll make it to the test server and then live soon enough so summoners can be back to being where they are supposed to be in the DPS tree instead of far above everyone else. ala Rangers...ballance on ..<hr></blockquote>Cry more, the devs may hear you.<hr></blockquote>check the patch notes buddy.. they did hear the Rangers.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>WOW thank cpt obvious...imagine that is what this thread is about!</p><p>Again go cry some more.</p><p>It must be a class thing....rangers get a deserved nerf and cry like little [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es....necros get one and just ask when.</p><p>So what is your point here again but to cry more or what?</p><hr></blockquote>I think the point is most summoners (conjuers especially) know damm well they are going to get nerfed and are somewhere way ahead of where they should be.Rangers are supposed to be t1 dps and were expecting other classes to be given a boost rather than themselves getting nerfed.I wouldnt worry about any nerf anyway, I honestly think summoners will still be ahead of everyone even after changes. Rarely do SoE completely gut a class like they did with rangers, and I still firmly believe that had more to do with PvP balance than anything else.Why would SoE care if summoners were doing a extra 500DPS more than a t1 dps class, it's hardly game breaking in terms of PvE.<hr></blockquote>It makes me sad to think that I'm going to be nerfed at some stage in the future. I know I'm powerful, but when another mage can hit for 100,000,000 points in one nuke, or an assasin can kill me from behind in one blow, </span><span>I feel feeble in comparison.</span><span>The reason I kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is because I make sure I'm have all my spells at Adept 3, and try to get fully mastered if possible. It takes a lot of time to earn the money to buy the spells, but they are worth it, yesterday I dropped 20 plat on a 65 level spell.Honestly, it's like the debate over whether lotto is broken or not, "the grass is always greener", "he always wills the lotto, I never do", and if your class is so broken, why no roll the class that you feel needs to be nerfed the most, it's "obviously the most powerful".As I say "The grass is always greener".</span></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 PM</span></p>

Zcenicx

03-10-2006, 07:41 PM

<div>Hmm... Wizards have utility spells?</div><div>Oh yeah.. let's see here.</div><div>We have our INT+STR buff, but all mages have a version of that so that doesn't count. Same numbers even, just a different secondary stat.(FotT Ad3: +59 STR, +59 INT)</div><div> </div><div>We have our resist/power buff, but that is also a common mage thing, only difference is the type of resist.(Augmentation Ad3: +306 Mana, +549 CR, +686 HR)</div><div> </div><div>Our Shield line is not an utility spell. It's not a damage shield, it's a reverse proc, thus an indirect damage spell (Frostshield Ma1: 637-779 Cold Damage, <3 times).</div><div>Stifles? Only have a single one - lapse. Only 4 seconds though, and a long recast to boot, so it's not useful either.(Lapse: Stifles target for 4 seconds, if target is not epic)</div><div> </div><div>Aurora, our mez, I haven't used since I got it. Its mere relation to usefulness is beyond me. Heck, even Templars get better mezzes, and since it mezzes me too it removes me from combat entirely for the duration.(Nimbus Aurora Ad1: Stuns target for 45 sec, Stuns caster for 45 sec, dispelled when target takes damage, does not affect epic targets)</div><div> </div><div>Numbing Cold, our AE slow, barely works. 1, It is out of encounter so using it is risky to use. 2, it only slows the mobs, and even heroics will still get you. 3, It's limited to 6 mobs, and 4 it doesn't affect epic encounters.</div><div> </div><div>Hmm... what's left. The Gift line? Ok, for 12 seconds a Wizard can give a proc to all non-heat, non-physical hostile spells. Effective in a mage group, but not really efficient since it costs a lot of power and has a 90s recast, but in an all-mage group it makes a difference.(Icebound Gift Ad3: 190-232 Cold dmg, 6 sec 56% slow [non-epic])</div><div> </div><div>Our roots? Well... we do have two of them and can such keep one mob rooted indefinately. Guess that counts. Doesn't save us from casters tho. The AE root is useful when soloing, but in any group enviroment it pulls too much aggro onto the sorcerer to be useful. In short, it's quite situational.(Ring of Ice Ad3: Roots target encounter for 36 sec, slows target by 57% on termination)(Truss Ad3: Roots target for 50 sec, slows target by 55% on termination)Both are also quite breakable. 10% on any hostile action, and 10% on damage.</div><div> </div><div>Intromission is useful though, mine replenishes 181 power to any target - for a 407 health cost. Ouch, since that's 10-15% of my HP bar and not even 3% of my hp bar.</div><div> </div><div>So is our Heat Proc spell, but the bad thing with that is that it requires 1 concentration per target. Means we can buff 3 people at the most, but sure. Only useful when in a melee group, which renders Gift useless.</div><div>(Blazing Grandeur Ad3: 25% chance to proc a 4x 29-64 heat DoT for a groupmember at the cost of 1 concentration)</div><div> </div><div>Singularity, our mana proc, is only ever useful on the main tank. It does help, but it only works if and when the tank is taking damage. Boo for mystics?</div><div>(Singularity Ad3: 10% chance to proc 74 power when the target <strong>takes damage</strong>)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Btw, you mentioned our stuns...Wizards have stuns on three spells. You want to know which?Well, let me tell you anyways. We have one of each damage type.</div><div> </div><div>Incapacitate Ad3: Inflicts 1342-2236 heat damage on target - Stuns target for 3 seconds if target is not epic</div><div> </div><div>Ice Comet Ad3: Inflicts 2819-5235 cold damage on target. - Applies Knockdown on target if non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.</div><div> </div><div>Surging Tempest Ad3: Inflicts 738-902 magic damage on target. - Applies Surge, if target is non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.*After 8 seconds this spell recasts itself, to a recurrent power cost*</div><div> </div><div>You want to count stuns connected to our main spells? These are not 'utility spells' any more than a summoner's pet is. We can't use them to Crowd Control either you know. All of the above have long cast timers, very long recharges, and they're the most power-expensive spells a Wizard has.</div><div> </div><div>Concussive is a lifeline for a sorcerer, as important to us as your pet heal is for you. If we don't use it we're bait. We sacrifice all defensive power to gain offensive power and we have to have some way to survive that.</div><div> </div><div>And don't even start on our self-cannibalize spells. We're the fastest power burners in the game, albeit we have the largest innate mana pool. Every other caster does more damage per mana than we do, we're as burst as you get.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Here's the trick though. I used these Ad3s to show you what a well equipped Wizard will do with them.</div><div>A full-Ad3 Wizard should always beat all other classes in DD as long as they don't run out of power, right? That would be most peoples guess, but it's not true.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is too short, a Wizard will be at the bottom of the well. We can't start by casting Ice Comets around us you know, and when we do start, it's a 6 second cast timer.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is medium lenght, like a triple up, yellow named, we should be kings. Noone should equal a Wizard on a lone mob.</div><div>Beep - wrong answer. Similarily equipped Conjurors that start out with their DoTs and dumbfire pets will if not equal us be quite close. Too close. They'll beat rangers, warlocks and assassins without much of a problem. Wizard recast and cast timers are too long to keep the conjurors long duration DoTs from eventually keeping up.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is long enough to allow us to spend our entire mana pool but not longer than that, we should still rule the single-mob dps. We won't. More often then not Conjurors pass us here, again because we cast too little too slow.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is very long, causing mana regen time, we shouldn't be on top anymore.</div><div>We won't be either, but now we get passed by both necros and conjurors, assassins, rangers, brigands, swashbucklers, berserkers, monks, bruisers - ie everyone, their aunts and their cousins. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>My solution;</div><div>Reduce the summoner pet damage output by a significant, but not excessive amount. If by reducing haste or reducing dps values I don't care.</div><div>-And-</div><div>Reduce the power cost and cast timers for the sorcerers. We shouldn't get gimped by T3-T4 dps in raids.</div>

broda

03-10-2006, 10:09 PM

um, noone is arguing wizards are a utility class. we're simply pointing out that conjurors have the same amount (or even possibly less) of utility as you do. i can do the same analysis you went through (and i honestly didnt bother reading) and show that vast majority of conj utility is either already done by sorc classes or isnt very useful. in fact ive done that in another thread.<div></div>

OperationsX

03-11-2006, 05:17 AM

<div></div><div>What most of you are not realizing is we only go into Tier 1 dps going all out and have to use it very situational unlike the other dps classes, indefinately grabbing aggro. What you fail to realize is pets have the highest hate gain in the game with the least threat reduction. If we enter T1 dps our pet gets clobbered, in most raid situations we cannot do this without using our special spell, which in most raid situations prevents us from doing this because of different strategies and AE.</div><div> </div><div>So the devs got alot of work to do aside from nerf our pets damage, that would make us Tier 3 dps not T2. We should be able to enter T1 dps when the fight lasts really long btw, that's part of our design, we are a sustained dps class. Boost sorcerers dont nerf summoners...and rangers are still doing fine at #1 fyi, might wanna buy rare T7 poisons if you think rangers aren't out dpsing summoners.</div><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:17 PM</span></p>

AfflictedOne

03-11-2006, 06:00 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div>What most of you are not realizing is we only go into Tier 1 dps going all out and have to use it very situational unlike the other dps classes, indefinately grabbing aggro. What you fail to realize is pets have the highest hate gain in the game with the least threat reduction. If we enter T1 dps our pet gets clobbered, in most raid situations we cannot do this without using our special spell, which in most raid situations prevents us from doing this because of different strategies and AE.</div><div> </div><div>So the devs got alot of work to do aside from nerf our pets damage, that would make us Tier 3 dps not T2. We should be able to enter T1 dps when the fight lasts really long btw, that's part of our design, we are a sustained dps class. Boost sorcerers dont nerf summoners...and rangers are still doing fine at #1 fyi, might wanna buy rare T7 poisons if you think rangers aren't out dpsing summoners.</div><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>LOL Conjs are hands down the top dps in raids now (haven't seen a necro parse since beta but they were close then to what conj are now). Followed pretty close by swashies. Not to mention buying T7 poisons won't make much difference. The rare T7 dd does ~50 damage more than the rare T6 dd without any additional ticks. So for my current dps to = current conj dps using T7 poisons I'd have to see procs every 0.1 seconds.</span><div></div>

retro_guy

03-11-2006, 06:41 AM

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Zcenicx wrote:<div>Hmm... Wizards have utility spells?</div><div>Oh yeah.. let's see here.</div><div>We have our INT+STR buff, but all mages have a version of that so that doesn't count. Same numbers even, just a different secondary stat.(FotT Ad3: +59 STR, +59 INT)</div><div> </div><div>We have our resist/power buff, but that is also a common mage thing, only difference is the type of resist.(Augmentation Ad3: +306 Mana, +549 CR, +686 HR)</div><div> </div><div>Our Shield line is not an utility spell. It's not a damage shield, it's a reverse proc, thus an indirect damage spell (Frostshield Ma1: 637-779 Cold Damage, <3 times).</div><div>Stifles? Only have a single one - lapse. Only 4 seconds though, and a long recast to boot, so it's not useful either.(Lapse: Stifles target for 4 seconds, if target is not epic)</div><div> </div><div>Aurora, our mez, I haven't used since I got it. Its mere relation to usefulness is beyond me. Heck, even Templars get better mezzes, and since it mezzes me too it removes me from combat entirely for the duration.(Nimbus Aurora Ad1: Stuns target for 45 sec, Stuns caster for 45 sec, dispelled when target takes damage, does not affect epic targets)</div><div> </div><div>Numbing Cold, our AE slow, barely works. 1, It is out of encounter so using it is risky to use. 2, it only slows the mobs, and even heroics will still get you. 3, It's limited to 6 mobs, and 4 it doesn't affect epic encounters.</div><div> </div><div>Hmm... what's left. The Gift line? Ok, for 12 seconds a Wizard can give a proc to all non-heat, non-physical hostile spells. Effective in a mage group, but not really efficient since it costs a lot of power and has a 90s recast, but in an all-mage group it makes a difference.(Icebound Gift Ad3: 190-232 Cold dmg, 6 sec 56% slow [non-epic])</div><div> </div><div>Our roots? Well... we do have two of them and can such keep one mob rooted indefinately. Guess that counts. Doesn't save us from casters tho. The AE root is useful when soloing, but in any group enviroment it pulls too much aggro onto the sorcerer to be useful. In short, it's quite situational.(Ring of Ice Ad3: Roots target encounter for 36 sec, slows target by 57% on termination)(Truss Ad3: Roots target for 50 sec, slows target by 55% on termination)Both are also quite breakable. 10% on any hostile action, and 10% on damage.</div><div> </div><div>Intromission is useful though, mine replenishes 181 power to any target - for a 407 health cost. Ouch, since that's 10-15% of my HP bar and not even 3% of my hp bar.</div><div> </div><div>So is our Heat Proc spell, but the bad thing with that is that it requires 1 concentration per target. Means we can buff 3 people at the most, but sure. Only useful when in a melee group, which renders Gift useless.</div><div>(Blazing Grandeur Ad3: 25% chance to proc a 4x 29-64 heat DoT for a groupmember at the cost of 1 concentration)</div><div> </div><div>Singularity, our mana proc, is only ever useful on the main tank. It does help, but it only works if and when the tank is taking damage. Boo for mystics?</div><div>(Singularity Ad3: 10% chance to proc 74 power when the target <strong>takes damage</strong>)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Btw, you mentioned our stuns...Wizards have stuns on three spells. You want to know which?Well, let me tell you anyways. We have one of each damage type.</div><div> </div><div>Incapacitate Ad3: Inflicts 1342-2236 heat damage on target - Stuns target for 3 seconds if target is not epic</div><div> </div><div>Ice Comet Ad3: Inflicts 2819-5235 cold damage on target. - Applies Knockdown on target if non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.</div><div> </div><div>Surging Tempest Ad3: Inflicts 738-902 magic damage on target. - Applies Surge, if target is non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.*After 8 seconds this spell recasts itself, to a recurrent power cost*</div><div> </div><div>You want to count stuns connected to our main spells? These are not 'utility spells' any more than a summoner's pet is. We can't use them to Crowd Control either you know. All of the above have long cast timers, very long recharges, and they're the most power-expensive spells a Wizard has.</div><div> </div><div>Concussive is a lifeline for a sorcerer, as important to us as your pet heal is for you. If we don't use it we're bait. We sacrifice all defensive power to gain offensive power and we have to have some way to survive that.</div><div> </div><div>And don't even start on our self-cannibalize spells. We're the fastest power burners in the game, albeit we have the largest innate mana pool. Every other caster does more damage per mana than we do, we're as burst as you get.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Here's the trick though. I used these Ad3s to show you what a well equipped Wizard will do with them.</div><div>A full-Ad3 Wizard should always beat all other classes in DD as long as they don't run out of power, right? That would be most peoples guess, but it's not true.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is too short, a Wizard will be at the bottom of the well. We can't start by casting Ice Comets around us you know, and when we do start, it's a 6 second cast timer.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is medium lenght, like a triple up, yellow named, we should be kings. Noone should equal a Wizard on a lone mob.</div><div>Beep - wrong answer. Similarily equipped Conjurors that start out with their DoTs and dumbfire pets will if not equal us be quite close. Too close. They'll beat rangers, warlocks and assassins without much of a problem. Wizard recast and cast timers are too long to keep the conjurors long duration DoTs from eventually keeping up.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is long enough to allow us to spend our entire mana pool but not longer than that, we should still rule the single-mob dps. We won't. More often then not Conjurors pass us here, again because we cast too little too slow.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is very long, causing mana regen time, we shouldn't be on top anymore.</div><div>We won't be either, but now we get passed by both necros and conjurors, assassins, rangers, brigands, swashbucklers, berserkers, monks, bruisers - ie everyone, their aunts and their cousins. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>My solution;</div><div>Reduce the summoner pet damage output by a significant, but not excessive amount. If by reducing haste or reducing dps values I don't care.</div><div>-And-</div><div>Reduce the power cost and cast timers for the sorcerers. We shouldn't get gimped by T3-T4 dps in raids.</div><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] youCalling for a nerf on someone else's class is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty thing to do.If you hate your class so much then play something else, or better still go play another game.</span></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:48 PM</span></p>

OperationsX

03-11-2006, 08:20 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Zcenicx wrote:<div>Hmm... Wizards have utility spells?</div><div>Oh yeah.. let's see here.</div><div>We have our INT+STR buff, but all mages have a version of that so that doesn't count. Same numbers even, just a different secondary stat.(FotT Ad3: +59 STR, +59 INT)</div><div> </div><div>We have our resist/power buff, but that is also a common mage thing, only difference is the type of resist.(Augmentation Ad3: +306 Mana, +549 CR, +686 HR)</div><div> </div><div>Our Shield line is not an utility spell. It's not a damage shield, it's a reverse proc, thus an indirect damage spell (Frostshield Ma1: 637-779 Cold Damage, <3 times).</div><div>Stifles? Only have a single one - lapse. Only 4 seconds though, and a long recast to boot, so it's not useful either.(Lapse: Stifles target for 4 seconds, if target is not epic)</div><div> </div><div>Aurora, our mez, I haven't used since I got it. Its mere relation to usefulness is beyond me. Heck, even Templars get better mezzes, and since it mezzes me too it removes me from combat entirely for the duration.(Nimbus Aurora Ad1: Stuns target for 45 sec, Stuns caster for 45 sec, dispelled when target takes damage, does not affect epic targets)</div><div> </div><div>Numbing Cold, our AE slow, barely works. 1, It is out of encounter so using it is risky to use. 2, it only slows the mobs, and even heroics will still get you. 3, It's limited to 6 mobs, and 4 it doesn't affect epic encounters.</div><div> </div><div>Hmm... what's left. The Gift line? Ok, for 12 seconds a Wizard can give a proc to all non-heat, non-physical hostile spells. Effective in a mage group, but not really efficient since it costs a lot of power and has a 90s recast, but in an all-mage group it makes a difference.(Icebound Gift Ad3: 190-232 Cold dmg, 6 sec 56% slow [non-epic])</div><div> </div><div>Our roots? Well... we do have two of them and can such keep one mob rooted indefinately. Guess that counts. Doesn't save us from casters tho. The AE root is useful when soloing, but in any group enviroment it pulls too much aggro onto the sorcerer to be useful. In short, it's quite situational.(Ring of Ice Ad3: Roots target encounter for 36 sec, slows target by 57% on termination)(Truss Ad3: Roots target for 50 sec, slows target by 55% on termination)Both are also quite breakable. 10% on any hostile action, and 10% on damage.</div><div> </div><div>Intromission is useful though, mine replenishes 181 power to any target - for a 407 health cost. Ouch, since that's 10-15% of my HP bar and not even 3% of my hp bar.</div><div> </div><div>So is our Heat Proc spell, but the bad thing with that is that it requires 1 concentration per target. Means we can buff 3 people at the most, but sure. Only useful when in a melee group, which renders Gift useless.</div><div>(Blazing Grandeur Ad3: 25% chance to proc a 4x 29-64 heat DoT for a groupmember at the cost of 1 concentration)</div><div> </div><div>Singularity, our mana proc, is only ever useful on the main tank. It does help, but it only works if and when the tank is taking damage. Boo for mystics?</div><div>(Singularity Ad3: 10% chance to proc 74 power when the target <strong>takes damage</strong>)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Btw, you mentioned our stuns...Wizards have stuns on three spells. You want to know which?Well, let me tell you anyways. We have one of each damage type.</div><div> </div><div>Incapacitate Ad3: Inflicts 1342-2236 heat damage on target - Stuns target for 3 seconds if target is not epic</div><div> </div><div>Ice Comet Ad3: Inflicts 2819-5235 cold damage on target. - Applies Knockdown on target if non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.</div><div> </div><div>Surging Tempest Ad3: Inflicts 738-902 magic damage on target. - Applies Surge, if target is non-epic. - Stuns target for 2 seconds. - Knocks target back. - Blurs vision of target.*After 8 seconds this spell recasts itself, to a recurrent power cost*</div><div> </div><div>You want to count stuns connected to our main spells? These are not 'utility spells' any more than a summoner's pet is. We can't use them to Crowd Control either you know. All of the above have long cast timers, very long recharges, and they're the most power-expensive spells a Wizard has.</div><div> </div><div>Concussive is a lifeline for a sorcerer, as important to us as your pet heal is for you. If we don't use it we're bait. We sacrifice all defensive power to gain offensive power and we have to have some way to survive that.</div><div> </div><div>And don't even start on our self-cannibalize spells. We're the fastest power burners in the game, albeit we have the largest innate mana pool. Every other caster does more damage per mana than we do, we're as burst as you get.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Here's the trick though. I used these Ad3s to show you what a well equipped Wizard will do with them.</div><div>A full-Ad3 Wizard should always beat all other classes in DD as long as they don't run out of power, right? That would be most peoples guess, but it's not true.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is too short, a Wizard will be at the bottom of the well. We can't start by casting Ice Comets around us you know, and when we do start, it's a 6 second cast timer.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is medium lenght, like a triple up, yellow named, we should be kings. Noone should equal a Wizard on a lone mob.</div><div>Beep - wrong answer. Similarily equipped Conjurors that start out with their DoTs and dumbfire pets will if not equal us be quite close. Too close. They'll beat rangers, warlocks and assassins without much of a problem. Wizard recast and cast timers are too long to keep the conjurors long duration DoTs from eventually keeping up.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is long enough to allow us to spend our entire mana pool but not longer than that, we should still rule the single-mob dps. We won't. More often then not Conjurors pass us here, again because we cast too little too slow.</div><div> </div><div>If the fight is very long, causing mana regen time, we shouldn't be on top anymore.</div><div>We won't be either, but now we get passed by both necros and conjurors, assassins, rangers, brigands, swashbucklers, berserkers, monks, bruisers - ie everyone, their aunts and their cousins. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>My solution;</div><div>Reduce the summoner pet damage output by a significant, but not excessive amount. If by reducing haste or reducing dps values I don't care.</div><div>-And-</div><div>Reduce the power cost and cast timers for the sorcerers. We shouldn't get gimped by T3-T4 dps in raids.</div><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] youCalling for a nerf on someone else's class is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty thing to do.If you hate your class so much then play something else, or better still go play another game.</span></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Calm down don't get upset for no good reason , his preceptions aren't valid because he doesn't know what conjurors design is about. His "solution" is obviously blunt, nieve and uncomplex or the devs would have gone through with the summoner changes that just decreased pet damage which is obviously NOT the solution.</p><p>The case is closed, but you are correct, like I've been saying for months you biter sorcerers need to fight to improve your raid dps and stop blaming and pointing fingers towards the summoners. Thank you.</p><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:20 PM</span></p>

Triyton

03-11-2006, 08:44 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Daelomdel wrote:Fact: Summoners outdamage any other class on the majority of the end-game encounters.Fact: Summoners despite having incredible DPS ability also have amazing utility. * Rez, Invis, Call of Hero, Health and Power Heals, Life Taps, insane Pull range, StoneskinFact: Summoners are able to duplicate any other class in the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS....Fact: Summoners consistently recieve new abilities that just making others jaws drop. * IE: An AP ability that with 4 points gives them a perm buff with a 50% chance to crit hit on everything, with 8 points its 100%.Other DPS classes feel like we have to make sacrafices in order to the the damage we are able to deal. This is not the case with the summoner classes, not only do they do insane damage they also have a sick arsenal of utility abilities. Summoners I have spoeken with deny this adimentally... but you can't lie to a parser and you can't lie about the utilty spells they have.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font size="1">You are completely mixing together here the abilities of Conjurors and Necros. For example, Only Necromancers have Lifetaps, backup healing, and Rez. Stoneskin is a Conjuror spell. Only Conjurors have Call of the Hero. Invis is a MAGE spell, as if that gave them some sort of advantage? (Illusionists have group invis, if you want someone to attack). The AA-Crit thing apparently is a bug. All MAGES have some form of power healing. (Summoners provide an item one group member at a time, Wizards and Warlocks use a spell, etcetera).</font></p><p><font size="1">If you have to mix together the abilities of two classes plus an Archetype to try to make a point, you don't have much of a point.</font></p><p> </p>

Triyton

03-11-2006, 10:02 PM

<div><p><font size="2">Part of the problem is that some players, especially the people likely to post on the forums here, have everything of significance as Adept3 and beyond. So one focuses on the Conjurors with half or more legendary and fabled gear (good stats and power pool and resistances, etcetera) an Adept3 pet, Master1 Offensive pet stance, and mix of Adept3 and Master offensive spells and pet buffs and group buffs.</font></p><p><font size="2">But way back when upgraded spells mostly let you use your power faster. Now they give you a much better result for the same power, and for anything cast on the mob are less resistable or last longer to boot. But some average Conjuror has lesser gear and is using (hopefully) Apprentice4 spells (or a mix of Apprentice2 thru Adept1, perhaps). He isn't amazing anyone, he if anything is being amazed by some of the others he may sees. Nerf Conjurors up and down the line and he goes from ordinary to gimped.</font></p><p><font size="2">Which brings up the other big problem. Do any of these class nerfs ever happen with a velvet glove? Why do devs have to murderize a class, then try to resusitate it one day if and when they get around to it? How about doing it the other way around, take out a meaningful but nonleathful amount. Consider taking a bit more a month <u>after</u> pushing the change live. They often end up looking like cooks that have added too much salt to the soup. It is a lot easier to add in more later than to put in too much salt (too much change/nerf) and try to fix it later.</font></p><p><font size="2"></font> </p></div>

Tanit

03-12-2006, 05:33 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Triyton wrote:<div><p><font size="2">But way back when upgraded spells mostly let you use your power faster. Now they give you a much better result for the same power, and for anything cast on the mob are less resistable or last longer to boot. But some average Conjuror has lesser gear and is using (hopefully) Apprentice4 spells (or a mix of Apprentice2 thru Adept1, perhaps). He isn't amazing anyone, he if anything is being amazed by some of the others he may sees. Nerf Conjurors up and down the line and he goes from ordinary to gimped</font></p></div><hr></blockquote>Spell quality is completely irrelevant when comparing classes as long as they have the same. Your avarage conjurer will still outdps the avarage sorcerer/predator with app4 spells.You can all whine and deny your dps/utlity all you want, but a nerf is just a matter of time and has only been delayed a bit. The only question is, how bad is it going to be for you.</span><div></div>

Triyton

03-12-2006, 10:55 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Triyton wrote:<div><p><font size="2">But way back when upgraded spells mostly let you use your power faster. Now they give you a much better result for the same power, and for anything cast on the mob are less resistable or last longer to boot. But some average Conjuror has lesser gear and is using (hopefully) Apprentice4 spells (or a mix of Apprentice2 thru Adept1, perhaps). He isn't amazing anyone, he if anything is being amazed by some of the others he may sees. Nerf Conjurors up and down the line and he goes from ordinary to gimped</font></p></div><hr></blockquote>Spell quality is completely irrelevant when comparing classes as long as they have the same. Your avarage conjurer will still outdps the avarage sorcerer/predator with app4 spells.You can all whine and deny your dps/utlity all you want, but a nerf is just a matter of time and has only been delayed a bit. The only question is, how bad is it going to be for you.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p><font size="2">Ahh but I wasn't try to compare classes as you assumed. I was comparing ordinary adventurers with the decked out ones that get talked about and parsed so much as if <u>they</u> were the ordinary ones.</font></p><p><font size="2">Wizards or whatever are the effectiveness of their gear and their group buffs and the couple of spells they have running at the moment. Conjurors have all that plus the pet. The pet is the product of the quality of its own spell plus an offensive or defensive stance, plus other permanent buffs like the blazing seed and flameshield line if not used on others when grouped, plus perhaps other temporary pet spells/buffs, and especially if tanking the ability of the pet heal to keep it alive, </font><font size="2">plus all the buffs that would apply to the conjuror apply to the pet - solo or in a group. An ordinary Conjuror is likely with ordinary adventrurers who have average buffs, your decked out Conjuror is more likely with people similar to himself.</font></p><p><font size="2">So, there is a lot more opportunity for (item and) spell quality, and player ability for that matter, to widen the gap between an ordinary Conjuror and a tricked out Conjuror than there is among Wizards or Warlocks.</font></p><p><font size="2">Then the nerf made by a heavy-handed dev intended to bring super-Conjuror/super-Necro down two pegs generally brings them down 4 pegs and is just murder on all the rest of the Summoners.</font></p>

KBern

03-13-2006, 07:55 PM

<div>All I can say is I am glad some of you are not designers.</div><div> </div><div>The SOE designers are more aware of the numbers behind each of the classes, the utility, and where they want them to be.</div><div> </div><div>When the dust settles, this thread will be meaningless because they will adjust or not adjust whatever they feel is needed regardless of the exaggerations and lack of knowledge on some of these comparison posts.</div><div> </div><div>Again, no class will be in the same place in the DPS tiers for all situations.</div><div> </div><div>A solo assassin will never reproduce the DPS of a group assassin.</div><div> </div><div>A grouped necro will have a very hard time meeting the DPS of a necro in a raid.</div><div> </div><div>If some of you cannot comprehend that concept about how each class will excel in a certain situations and cannot excel in all, then shrug, that is your issue to come to grips with but I am pretty confident by the many of MG's posts, at least they are well aware of them.</div>

03-13-2006, 08:46 PM

<div>Maybe SOE should change the game so there is just one class in the whole game that has the ability of all the current classes now. But i'm sure we'll still have alot of people whining that player X is still better then them.</div>

curtlewis

03-13-2006, 11:28 PM

It's funny how people bring up utlity spells that Wizards have to try and get attention off their class. All casters have utilities to a small or large extent.But let's look deeper here.Take a conjuror's hitpoints and power. Add to that his pets hit points and power.Now, take a wizards hitpoints and power.... big difference here.Now, count the number of spells per minute the conjuror and his pet cast.Do the same for the wizard.<div></div>... big difference here.Now count the number of melee attacks per minute for the conjuror and pet.And do the same for the wizard (add in protoflame and Forge of Ro here if you want)... big difference here.In every case, the Conjuror has a big win.Conjurors nukes aren't that inferor to the wizards. Their pet is VERY powerful in both melee and spells. Their defensive capability is vastly superior to Wizards. Let the pet tank. It'll hold longer than any root and you can nuke, nuke, nuke until the sun goes down, too!It's fairly obvious why Conjuror's do 40% more dmg average on raid mobs than Wizards.

KBern

03-13-2006, 11:32 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>curtlewis wrote:It's funny how people bring up utlity spells that Wizards have to try and get attention off their class. All casters have utilities to a small or large extent.But let's look deeper here.Take a conjuror's hitpoints and power. Add to that his pets hit points and power.Now, take a wizards hitpoints and power.... big difference here.Now, count the number of spells per minute the conjuror and his pet cast.Do the same for the wizard.<div></div>... big difference here.Now count the number of melee attacks per minute for the conjuror and pet.And do the same for the wizard (add in protoflame and Forge of Ro here if you want)... big difference here.In every case, the Conjuror has a big win.Conjurors nukes aren't that inferor to the wizards. Their pet is VERY powerful in both melee and spells. Their defensive capability is vastly superior to Wizards. Let the pet tank. It'll hold longer than any root and you can nuke, nuke, nuke until the sun goes down, too!It's fairly obvious why Conjuror's do 40% more dmg average on raid mobs than Wizards.<hr></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>Can you be any more pathetically selective?!?! </p><p>Lets compare the fire/cold based damage spells wizards get compared to necros....OMG how overpowered they are....we dont even have any of those!!!???!! NERPH DEM!</p><p>As I said, thank god the devs know how to look at these things.</p><p>You forgot the conjurors "Kill Zone" Button they all get too....and the 75% hit Point penalty wizards get.</p><p> </p>

03-14-2006, 12:37 AM

<blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Triyton wrote:<div><p><font size="2">But way back when upgraded spells mostly let you use your power faster. Now they give you a much better result for the same power, and for anything cast on the mob are less resistable or last longer to boot. But some average Conjuror has lesser gear and is using (hopefully) Apprentice4 spells (or a mix of Apprentice2 thru Adept1, perhaps). He isn't amazing anyone, he if anything is being amazed by some of the others he may sees. Nerf Conjurors up and down the line and he goes from ordinary to gimped</font></p></div><hr></blockquote>Spell quality is completely irrelevant when comparing classes as long as they have the same. Your avarage conjurer will still outdps the avarage sorcerer/predator with app4 spells.You can all whine and deny your dps/utlity all you want, but a nerf is just a matter of time and has only been delayed a bit. The only question is, how bad is it going to be for you.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>But alot of the difference is in your own little head... And BTW, per the damage tier outline, summoners with DPS pets in offensive stance ARE a T1 damage class. Our warrior pets are supposed to drop us to T3-T4.The funny thing is that even after getting dinked, some of you whiners will still be confused as to why summoners are better than you... well, somethings SoE can't fix.

03-14-2006, 12:45 AM

<blockquote><hr>Firmah wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Sulpeel wrote:</p><p><span>Actually we (necros) are supposed to be tier 1 dps with a scout / mage pet and a suitably long fight (ie not 30 secs) as I understand the tiering system. We are not supposed to be tier 1 burst dps any more than we are meant to be consistently tier 2 dps. </span></p><hr></blockquote><p>One of the devs posted the tier chart some time ago. People asked about wether they mean sustained or burst damage etc. No answer. For me it is simple... under no circumstances should any Tier 2 outdamage a Tier 1, sustained or not. Why? Wizards, Warlocks, Assassin and Rangers are about Damage and nothing else. If summoners with better utitlity do as much damage as a Wizard... why would anyone ever play a Wizard? Why should they be picked in Raids? And as of now... Wizards actually face these troubles...</p><p>See a brigand... they do less damage then an assassin... why should they be picked in raids? Because they can debuff very nice... they bring utility... and can also do T2 damage... through their debuffs they help all to make more damage... thus they are wanted... but not for damage... and not many of them... If you choose a wizard... you will choose it because you want to add some raw extra damage... thats how it should be... as of now? You would choose a necro... cause they do better damage... you would choose a ranger... who do way better damage...</p><p>Everyone has its place and role... the role of a necro or conjurer is NOT pure dps... these things will be brought into line sooner or later...</p><p>Message Edited by Firmah on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Moronic post... Summoners have no <b>more</b> ultility in a raid than any other class. Its a simple lie. Loe the wizard post that outlines all the utility wizards do, and infer that summoners have more... No not at all! And summoner utility is MUCH weaker than primary role utility!I'm a realist, Summoners will get adjusted (I HATE the term nerf, its a stupid term thats been WAY too abused by ignorant players). I'm cool with that. But I don't play a necro becasue of ubber DSP, I play it becasue they're flexible. Now that said, summoners ARE <b>supposed</b> to be near T1 DPS, when they shift into that mode. Right now, Necromancers at least don't really have to shift as much as I think we should.

Noaani

03-14-2006, 01:10 AM

<div></div><p>Its funny how this turned in to a Summoner vs Wizard thread...</p><p>Anyway, I'll continue that theme...</p><p>We all know the game has three core components when it comes to class balancing, solo play, groups and raids. I dont think anyone has any real reason to complain that and sorcerer or summoner has any issues soloing, IMO they are the two best classes in the game in that respect. Since (hopefully) we can all agree that soloing is not an issue, I am going to look as best i can at grouping and raiding.</p><p> We can all function in groups well enough, however this, is where summoners begin to show both the damageing potential and their utility. In any group, a wizard or warlock has one role, and one role only, which is to kill stuff. In the majority of group that is what a summoner will do as well. In this thread people have been saying that wizards have a decient amount of utility, and that summoners need more, but I am not too sure what these people consider "utility". Looking over wizard spells, and reading the descriptions, we have 5 spells that stun our taget at level 65, sounds impressive, almost as much CC as a chanter. If you look at the rest of those descriptions, you would notice that four of those spells ( Ice Comet, Fusion, Surging Tempest and Incapacitate) are some of our biggest damage spells. what they do, essentially, is knock the target back, or stun it, for about 2 seconds. If a wizard was to try and use one of these spells as CC on any heroic mob they will be dead in a matter of seconds. An add is about to aggro the group, the wizard thinks to himself 'i might use one of my CC spells on that soon-to-be add' casts Ice Comet, as it has a stun aspest to it, 2 seconds later the mob is rushing the wizard. If they use Surging Tempest or Incapacitate it will be exactly the same, and with fusions 5 meter efect radius and 5 secoond cast timer, the wizard will be dead before the spell goes off. These spells are nothing more than nukes, simple as that. The 5th stun we get, Lapse, lasts for 45 seconds on a single mob, its a great spell, except that for that duration the wizard that cast it is also stunned, handy in an emergancy, but most wizards I know dont keep it on their hotbar as there are almost always other classes around with better CC (used to be a great spell, cast it on a mob then use your manastone, the damage from the manastone broke the mezz on you, but the mob stayed mezzed till the spell expired, SoE "fixed" that not so long ago). we do have 2 roots we can use, but is a group, because of the fact that they break way more often than the spell description would have us believe and because they have fairly long cast timers, these are of minimal use. Other spells that people are claiming to be "utility" are simply ways for us to increase the damage of the group as a whole (Frostshield, Icebound Gift and Blazing Grandeur). The only real "utility" I can think of that a wizard has in a group is our power feeding line, which uses what I consider a significant amount of health to use when in a group with only one healer, and our resistance and stat buffs. Oh yeah, we also have evac, but with a 5 second cast timer, and the fact that fizzles and interrupts are so common now, it is more of a fast travel spell than an emergancy spell.</p><p>In a group situation necros, I am going to focus on necros since I only did one sorcerer, have a few options avalible to them. First, as we all know, the have a rezz. Great in a group with only one healer, Melee dps pulls aggro and dies, necro rezzes them, they use their heart that the necro gave them, cast a few buffs, and get back on the mob. Second, they have hearts, In a single group, a necro should be able to keep all 6 players with a heart in the bags at all times (a little communication helps with this, but thats not a hard thing either, and at the very least, the tank and healer/s should have a heart at all times) wizards can, once every 20 seconds, feed a small amount of power to a single target. So, necros can give power tot he whole group, wizards to one member. Necros also have a fear spell line. it has the same cast time as our single target root, but the advantage of the mob running away from the group, which prevents it from taking damage, the main issue with wizards roots. Necors also get Constrict, a stun similar to the one wizards get, but with a shorter duration, and it does not stun the caster. Necros also have a root spell line, same deal as wizards, but I am mentioning it so people dont post saying how i forgot to mention it. They get a small heal, well, not really a heal so much as a HP transfer, but it gives the tank more hit points reguardless. They have life taps, not huge ones, but enough to make a diffrance if you are fighting a group (the life taps almost cancel out the fact that a necro uses its own HP when transfering health to the tank, but, from what i have seen, dont quite make it all up). Now for the single biggest utility a necro has at their disposal, their pets. In a normal group (tank healer 3 dps and a bard, chanter or another healer) they would have one of their dps pets out. both of these pets allow the necro to do about as much damge as any T1 dps class (from what I have read, summoners with their dps pets out are supposed to be T2 dps). Now, should that group come up against a mob that is immune to the damage type of that pet, the necro can, in a few seconds, summon a diffrent pet and have their major damage type completely changed. Melee dps classes can do this to an extent, other mages are totally out of luck if they come up against a mob resistant or immune to one of their damage types. in that same group, should the tank leave and the group can't find another, the necro can bring out its tanking pet and fill that role (to me that is utility, being able to fill the role of another archtype). Sure, that group will have to take it a little slower, but if the group and the necro know what they are doing, they can take on the same mobs they were before, just with slightly diffrent tactics (I have been in group all through Sanctum with a necro tanking, and took down Rognog at about level 55 with a Conj tanking).</p><p>So, at least in groups, I put the "utility" of wizards vs necros as something like this</p><p>Wizard</p><p>1 stun, 2 roots, small amount of power feeding to 1 target, Str and Int buff for the group, heat and cold mitigation and power buff for the group, evac.</p><p>Necro</p><p>1 stun, 1 fear, 1 root, power hearts to the whole group, Sta and Int buff for the whole group, Disease and poison mitigation and power buff for the whole group, ability to fill the role dps or tank as required, rezz, Sta debuff, small heal, life tap.</p><p>Raids.</p><p>Both summoner sub classes are constantly capable of out dpsing any of the so-called Tier 1 dps classes, on any raid encounter, on any night, reguardless of the raiding experiance of the individuals behind the toons, and almost reguardless of the gear of each character. Now, every class that is considered either T1 or t2 dps (wizards,warlocks,rangers,assassins, ncromancers conjurors brigands swashbucklers monks and bruisers)should have certian mobs where they really shine, and out do everyone else. The problem is, both summoners are out damageing everyone else, against every mob, all the time, in every guild, on every server. Now, people (summoners) will argue, and rightly so, that their class is built around this idea of sustained dame, for an almost indefinate amount of time. This would be how you would have your turn to shine, a mob with say 800k hp in a t6 raid (without little toys to do half that in one hit), everyone else would be oop and the summoners in the raid would still be going strong. Where i see the main issue with raid balance is that summoners are outdamageing other dps classes, even those supposed to be T1 as opposed to summoners T2, before the others run out of power. If summoners think it is fair that they should be able to out damage any other class in the game and have a decient amount of utility (your pets are more utility than most other classes get) then I think its time to give every dps class a pet of their onw to control, send in to tank for them when soloing, and change to be a dps boost in groups and on raids. Since this is not going to happen, I think we will all see, sometime soon, a change to the amount of damage a summoner with its pet can put out. I just honestly hope it doesn't have the effect on solo play as the nerf to rangers did.</p><p>Sorry about the long post, dont bother reading it.</p>

03-14-2006, 02:28 AM

<blockquote>Wizard1 stun, 2 roots, small amount of power feeding to 1 target, Str and Int buff for the group, heat and cold mitigation and power buff for the group, evac.Necro1 stun, 1 fear, 1 root, <b>power hearts to the whole group</b>, Sta and Int buff for the whole group, Disease and poison mitigation and power buff for the whole group, ability to fill the role dps or tank as required, rezz, Sta debuff, small heal, life tap.</blockquote>And this is an example of the BS way of looking at things. Hearts are given out one at a time in 30 second intervals. How is this giving power to the "entire group" any different that a wiz casting on each individual...Yes hearts are more flexible becasue they're used at the owners discretion, but direct cast power transfer is more helpful in that the target doesn't have to manage an inventory item to benefit from it.... Wizards will of course try to diminish the need to manage an inventory item... blah blah whatever.The point isn't that the summoner or wizard version is better, its that they're both equal in utility in different ways.I do wish someone at SoE would bring back the threads about DPS. MG or BG came right out and said... Summoners would out DPS other classes over long drawn out battles, that the weakness of the summoner classes was its lack of burstable damage...They also said that a summoner going all out offensively was a T1-T2 class in its own right.Personally, I think a suitable change would be:- Have the Necro Offensive stance have a constant HP drain, and the Conj Offensive stance have a constant power drain. Keeps Offensive DPS the same, but at a cost. A summoner in Offensive stance should run a higher risk of being OOP or should constantly battle with the health loss. A liched/offensive stance necro should require constant healing or be forced to manage his DPS/Health situation. Also a possibility would be to have lich take HPs every time it procs. Again, this makes necros have to choose between the extra damage, and personal health. If a group wants a necro doing max damage, then assign a healer to him and let him go balistic. A wizard in that same group wouldn't need the extra healing, but looses some of the benefits of having a summoner.... that friends is what balance should be about.- Reduce the Mage pet DD and increase its life tap health returns a tad. Make damage a solid T2 (not T1) and have it be more group regen oriented.- The Warrior pet is what it should be.Just my opinion... I'm sure summoners and summoner haters alike will hate me for it, but both sides are correct... and completely wrong on this issue.

Odium

03-14-2006, 03:39 AM

<div></div><div></div><p>Dup - deleted. - not sure how it posted three times</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Treozen on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:56 PM</span></p>

Odium

03-14-2006, 03:39 AM

<div></div><div></div><p>Deleted due to being a dup.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Treozen on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:49 PM</span></p>

MilkToa

03-14-2006, 03:40 AM

<div></div><p>As has been stated previously, SOE does its own analysis of class DPS and will make modifications based on that analysis. It can also be inferred from official posts that SOE thinks that summoner's DPS exceeds the range that they deem appropriate, either in absolute terms or relative to other classes. It may take a while to happen and the changes may have unintended consequences, but changes will be made to remedy the imbalance. Either summoners will be nerfed or other classes will have their DPS increased; I'd speculate a summoner nerf is the most likely out.</p>

Odium

03-14-2006, 03:48 AM

<div></div><p>Ive read alot of the posts and Im not saying anyone needs a nerf, but I think its important that we stop using the word "summoner" and instead deal with the words "Necromancer" and "Conjuror". Everyone (mostly those that don't play either class) throws the word "summoner" around as though a Necro and Conj are the same thing under the term"summoner" - Not so, and in some cases, not even close. Before you call for a Nerf or dicuss a class imbalance - make sure to be specific, do not generalize with "Summoner".</p><p>Im not saying Conj need nerfs - and I do happen to be A Necro, but here are some thoughts:</p><p>Necros are single target. Conj is AOE - Thats very different</p><p>Necros have a single target heal - which when healing your own lvl is extreemly small - infact it bearly registers on a Tanks HP. I think Conj gets a group heal - Again, very different (not sure how good it is)</p><p>Its seems to me that Conj have more group friendly buffs etc, where as Necros have better HP management with their life taps, etc. - neither bad nor good on either, just different.</p><p>It takes me ( a necro) 10 seconds to recast my pet. (so I cant just kill one and pop another mid battle) I believe Conj can pop a new pet or have some way to rez one instantly - again, I dont think thats unfair, its just different.</p><p> </p><p>The point is - Dont call for nerfs based on "summoner" because the Summoner classes are very different. I think some of you might be combining aspects from a Necro and aspects of a Conj and creating this image of an Uber Summoner - Which doesn't exist.</p><p>Do Necros and Conj need a nerf? - I dont think so - but Im bias. What I do know is that the class is not as easy as many have made out, it is not has powerful as many believe and its not a "summoner" either - they are independant and so are their traits. Even our pets operate differently and as one person mentioned, all Necro Pets are named the same - So it may appear that our one pet is doing massive DPS, when in reality its a combination of my Tank pet, Rats and Ghastly stench - 2 of which aren't pets at all, but fancy DOTs. For a true comparison, you'd have to add all of a Warlocks Dots to their main nuke and call it one main Uber Nuke - which would be very wrong. As an example, I could add three warlock Dots or AOE to Dark Distortion and say that DD is way over powered - but I'd be way wrong - same goes for Necro pets.</p><p>I'd suggest that it is very hard for you to judge us "Summoners" because you have a skewed look on our class.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

OperationsX

03-14-2006, 07:01 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>All I can say is I am glad some of you are not designers.</div><div> </div><div>The SOE designers are more aware of the numbers behind each of the classes, the utility, and where they want them to be.</div><div> </div><div>When the dust settles, this thread will be meaningless because they will adjust or not adjust whatever they feel is needed regardless of the exaggerations and lack of knowledge on some of these comparison posts.</div><div> </div><div>Again, no class will be in the same place in the DPS tiers for all situations.</div><div> </div><div>A solo assassin will never reproduce the DPS of a group assassin.</div><div> </div><div>A grouped necro will have a very hard time meeting the DPS of a necro in a raid.</div><div> </div><div>If some of you cannot comprehend that concept about how each class will excel in a certain situations and cannot excel in all, then shrug, that is your issue to come to grips with but I am pretty confident by the many of MG's posts, at least they are well aware of them.</div><hr></blockquote>Yep, like I been saying all along its all about situations, smartest post in here - now with 80% less endless paragraphs of meaningless blabble!

Firm

03-14-2006, 07:22 PM

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Zald wrote:Moronic post... Summoners have no <b>more</b> ultility in a raid than any other class. Its a simple lie. Loe the wizard post that outlines all the utility wizards do, and infer that summoners have more... No not at all! And summoner utility is MUCH weaker than primary role utility!</p><p><font color="#ccffcc">Good that you warned ppl about your post... accusing others to lie is indeed a little bit moronic... :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><p><font color="#ccffcc">P.S.: Sorry, couldnt resist...</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

AbsentmindedMage

03-14-2006, 08:18 PM

<div></div><div></div>It is really amusing to read through these posts and see various outside classes try to play their agendas. It is not enough for them to want to see a reduction in the damage of summoners (even though as many have pointed out it is situational) but they want to see an INCREASE in THEIR OWN stuff on top of it. [Removed for Content], so much for balance being the real issue. You are basing your desire to see a nerf of another class on your classes current state but at the same time requesting that your class be boosted.It is also funny that nobody seems to dispute that summoners should be by far the most well-rounded soloing class; however, in the same breath these same people somehow think that once a summoner enters a group they should be somehow less. It is only reasonable that if you are an excellent soloing class that you are going to be equally well in a group environment. And no, summoners and conjurors specifically do not have this immense utility that others are proclaiming we have. We have about the same utility as a Sorceror. We DO NOT have any spells that increase physical stats like strength or intelligence. We do have a spell that boosts resists a little bit. Those shards and hearts everyone likes to point to are really only for emergency situations as they provide little to no power i.e. less than 200 units of power and this in exchange for much higher amount of health points. Call of Hero costs 1g 40s or so and has 8 minute timer and can only call people in the SAME zone. If you want to pay that much for a utility spell everytime you use it be my guest to petition the devs for your own spell that costs that much. I will be sure to ask you to use it and remain ignorant to the fact that it costs you money. As for stoneskin, you cannot really call that a utility spell. It can only be cast on the conjuror so is of no use to others in the group. And as you can see they are changing it from absorbing 3 attacks(it only absorbed a percentage anyway) to something less useful which is an area of affect reduction of hate. So, my pet dies and all the hate of the encounter dumps onto me. I cast stoneskin to reduce the hate but I am the only one there. Bloody good it will do me. At least with the old way, I would have a chance to run away or cast a new pet while being beaten.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:20 AM</span></p>

Senr

03-14-2006, 09:16 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Treozen wrote:<div></div><p>Ive read alot of the posts and Im not saying anyone needs a nerf, but I think its important that we stop using the word "summoner" and instead deal with the words "Necromancer" and "Conjuror". Everyone (mostly those that don't play either class) throws the word "summoner" around as though a Necro and Conj are the same thing under the term"summoner" - Not so, and in some cases, not even close. Before you call for a Nerf or dicuss a class imbalance - make sure to be specific, do not generalize with "Summoner".</p><p>Im not saying Conj need nerfs - and I do happen to be A Necro, but here are some thoughts:</p><p>Necros are single target. Conj is AOE - Thats very different</p><p>Necros have a single target heal - which when healing your own lvl is extreemly small - infact it bearly registers on a Tanks HP. I think Conj gets a group heal - Again, very different (not sure how good it is)</p><p><font color="#ccffcc">Conjurors get a group heal that also restores some power to the group. This does require destroying your pet to accomplish. With a 10 second cast on a pet, and then another 10 seconds or so to buff it, it isn't as useful as you'd think. </font></p><p>Its seems to me that Conj have more group friendly buffs etc, where as Necros have better HP management with their life taps, etc. - neither bad nor good on either, just different.</p><p><font color="#ccffcc">Conjurors get a damage shield and melee proc buff that necros don't have equals of. </font></p><p>It takes me ( a necro) 10 seconds to recast my pet. (so I cant just kill one and pop another mid battle) I believe Conj can pop a new pet or have some way to rez one instantly - again, I dont think thats unfair, its just different.</p><p> <font color="#ccffcc">All permanent pets, be it conjuror, necro or illusionist, require 10 seconds to recast. We do have a pet salavation, so when they take fatal damage, they get healed by a bit instead and don't die. But they'll die on the next hit.</font></p><p>The point is - Dont call for nerfs based on "summoner" because the Summoner classes are very different. I think some of you might be combining aspects from a Necro and aspects of a Conj and creating this image of an Uber Summoner - Which doesn't exist.</p><font color="#ccffcc">This is a common problem in this thread. People have cherry-picked the best abilities of a necro and the best abilities of a conjuror to describe the swiss-army knife character that doesn't exist. I'll admit that we do outdamage most classes in raids. Part of it is no doubt just that we can send our pets in and move out of AE range, where as warlocks and wizards have to avoid the AE. But our utility is nothing special.</font></blockquote></span></div>

KBern

03-14-2006, 09:25 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Senr wrote:<div><span><blockquote><font color="#ccffcc">This is a common problem in this thread. <font size="4">People have cherry-picked the best abilities of a necro and the best abilities of a conjuror to describe the swiss-army knife character that doesn't exist.</font> I'll admit that we do outdamage most classes in raids. Part of it is no doubt just that we can send our pets in and move out of AE range, where as warlocks and wizards have to avoid the AE. But our utility is nothing special.</font></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>BINGO</p><p>There is some mythical summoner class out there with FD, COH, Damage Shields, Group Heals, Self Heals, Stoneskin, etc etc etc.</p><p> </p>

Wingrider01

03-14-2006, 09:46 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Senr wrote:<div><span><blockquote><font color="#ccffcc">This is a common problem in this thread. <font size="4">People have cherry-picked the best abilities of a necro and the best abilities of a conjuror to describe the swiss-army knife character that doesn't exist.</font> I'll admit that we do outdamage most classes in raids. Part of it is no doubt just that we can send our pets in and move out of AE range, where as warlocks and wizards have to avoid the AE. But our utility is nothing special.</font></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>BINGO</p><p>There is some mythical summoner class out there with FD, COH, Damage Shields, Group Heals, Self Heals, Stoneskin, etc etc etc.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>It appears the key word here is RAIDS - so everyone is screaming to nueter the raid levelpower for the 12-15 percent that raid and destroy the other 85-88 percent of the class that will probably only raid a few times if any but solo the majority.

MilkToa

03-14-2006, 09:59 PM

<div></div><p>Most people say summoners because both summoner classes currently out DPS all of the tier 1 DPS classes. Also, both summoner classes have more utility than the supposed tier 1 DPS classes (sorcerers and predators). If you don't understand how to use that utility or you don't appreciate its value then I'm sorry, but that's your problem.</p><p>Every class that has been overpowered in EQ2 has spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy making absurd posts trying to explain why they aren't really overpowered regardless of all the empirical data that indicates otherwise. An equally vocal group spends an inordinate amount of time making posts exagerating all of the abilities of the overpowered class trying to get them nerfed into oblivion. None of these posts change the facts and SOE eventually anaylzes enough data to determine that the class is operationing outside of its desired performance range and nerfs the class. The changes (nerfs) usually have unanticipated consequences and SOE spends the next several updates trying to fix the nerfed class.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

Wingrider01

03-14-2006, 10:48 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><p>Most people say summoners because both summoner classes currently out DPS all of the tier 1 DPS classes. Also, both summoner classes have more utility than the supposed tier 1 DPS classes (sorcerers and predators). If you don't understand how to use that utility or you don't appreciate its value then I'm sorry, but that's your problem.</p><p>Every class that has been overpowered in EQ2 has spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy making absurd posts trying to explain why they aren't really overpowered regardless of all the empirical data that indicates otherwise. An equally vocal group spends an inordinate amount of time making posts exagerating all of the abilities of the overpowered class trying to get them nerfed into oblivion. None of these posts change the facts and SOE eventually anaylzes enough data to determine that the class is operationing outside of its desired performance range and nerfs the class. The changes (nerfs) usually have unanticipated consequences and SOE spends the next several updates trying to fix the nerfed class.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>So you are saying that all pet classes are overpowered in everything no matter what level spell they are using - a tank pet that is summoned with a app 1, or a adept 3 is exactly the same in performance as one summoned with a master level spell - you are assuming that all summoner classes have exactly the same level spells. If you are going to insult a class at least have the commion decency to differentiate between the various levels of the spells. The probably is a slight, just every so slight difference between a pet that is summoned with a Master level spell and buffed with master level spells as compared to one that is summoned and buffed with adept 3 spells. Which a lot of the raid capable pet classes are working with the master level spells and the solo players are playing with the adept level spells - does this mean you are championing the cause that the summoner class should automaticly get the master level pet related spells so they are all on an even footing if they raid or not?</p><p>It is good to see that heritage quests are not the only thing that have carried over from everquest 1.</p>

MilkToa

03-14-2006, 11:46 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wingrider01 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><p>Most people say summoners because both summoner classes currently out DPS all of the tier 1 DPS classes. Also, both summoner classes have more utility than the supposed tier 1 DPS classes (sorcerers and predators). If you don't understand how to use that utility or you don't appreciate its value then I'm sorry, but that's your problem.</p><p>Every class that has been overpowered in EQ2 has spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy making absurd posts trying to explain why they aren't really overpowered regardless of all the empirical data that indicates otherwise. An equally vocal group spends an inordinate amount of time making posts exagerating all of the abilities of the overpowered class trying to get them nerfed into oblivion. None of these posts change the facts and SOE eventually anaylzes enough data to determine that the class is operationing outside of its desired performance range and nerfs the class. The changes (nerfs) usually have unanticipated consequences and SOE spends the next several updates trying to fix the nerfed class.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>So you are saying that all pet classes are overpowered in everything no matter what level spell they are using - a tank pet that is summoned with a app 1, or a adept 3 is exactly the same in performance as one summoned with a master level spell - you are assuming that all summoner classes have exactly the same level spells. If you are going to insult a class at least have the commion decency to differentiate between the various levels of the spells. The probably is a slight, just every so slight difference between a pet that is summoned with a Master level spell and buffed with master level spells as compared to one that is summoned and buffed with adept 3 spells. Which a lot of the raid capable pet classes are working with the master level spells and the solo players are playing with the adept level spells - does this mean you are championing the cause that the summoner class should automaticly get the master level pet related spells so they are all on an even footing if they raid or not?</p><p>It is good to see that heritage quests are not the only thing that have carried over from everquest 1.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, I'm not insulting anyone or any class. At this point it really doesn't matter what the players think because SOE has already made the determination that summoners are overpowered, it's inferred in Blackguard's posts. For what it's worth I make my comparisons against comparably equipped players, which in my case means mostly adept 3 and master spells. Do you own parses and draw your own conclusions. If you have adept 1 spells than compare yourself to other classes using adept 1 spells, it's silly to argue that class A equipped with app 1 spells should be comparable to class B using adept 3 spells.</p><p> </p>

Wingrider01

03-15-2006, 12:50 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wingrider01 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><p>Most people say summoners because both summoner classes currently out DPS all of the tier 1 DPS classes. Also, both summoner classes have more utility than the supposed tier 1 DPS classes (sorcerers and predators). If you don't understand how to use that utility or you don't appreciate its value then I'm sorry, but that's your problem.</p><p>Every class that has been overpowered in EQ2 has spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy making absurd posts trying to explain why they aren't really overpowered regardless of all the empirical data that indicates otherwise. An equally vocal group spends an inordinate amount of time making posts exagerating all of the abilities of the overpowered class trying to get them nerfed into oblivion. None of these posts change the facts and SOE eventually anaylzes enough data to determine that the class is operationing outside of its desired performance range and nerfs the class. The changes (nerfs) usually have unanticipated consequences and SOE spends the next several updates trying to fix the nerfed class.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>So you are saying that all pet classes are overpowered in everything no matter what level spell they are using - a tank pet that is summoned with a app 1, or a adept 3 is exactly the same in performance as one summoned with a master level spell - you are assuming that all summoner classes have exactly the same level spells. If you are going to insult a class at least have the commion decency to differentiate between the various levels of the spells. The probably is a slight, just every so slight difference between a pet that is summoned with a Master level spell and buffed with master level spells as compared to one that is summoned and buffed with adept 3 spells. Which a lot of the raid capable pet classes are working with the master level spells and the solo players are playing with the adept level spells - does this mean you are championing the cause that the summoner class should automaticly get the master level pet related spells so they are all on an even footing if they raid or not?</p><p>It is good to see that heritage quests are not the only thing that have carried over from everquest 1.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Lol, I'm not insulting anyone or any class. At this point it really doesn't matter what the players think because SOE has already made the determination that summoners are overpowered, it's inferred in Blackguard's posts. For what it's worth I make my comparisons against comparably equipped players, which in my case means mostly adept 3 and master spells. Do you own parses and draw your own conclusions. If you have adept 1 spells than compare yourself to other classes using adept 1 spells, it's silly to argue that class A equipped with app 1 spells should be comparable to class B using adept 3 spells.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>No - it appears that everyone is basing their complaints on pet classes equiped with master level spells and ignoring the fact that not all members of that class have access to those level spell. 98 percent of what is mentioned here is at the raid level. It really does not matter though, the same thing that occurred in eq1 is occurring here, no matter how things are supposed to change, they always stay the same. Does not matter though, there are always other favorite classes to play when they get done nuetering this one

Styk

03-15-2006, 03:59 AM

<div>Sony why nerf pet classes at all ? Maybe what you need to do is up Sorcerer Dps instead of Nerfing Pet class dps</div><div> </div><div> </div>

Mode

03-15-2006, 04:09 AM

<div></div><div>Necros in my guild where parseing 1k to 1.2 k dps in T6 on singel target White con or higher raid mobs. and are parseing 1.2k to 1.4k in T7 on white con or higher. No huge increase, however warlocks (ME) was parsing 1k in T6 and are only parsing 600 to 700 in T7. Warlock are bugged I think wizards are in same boat. At the same time however a necro should not be parsing as well as a wizard or warlock on any mob ever. Warlock need to be fixed to be back in T1 DPS and necros need a slight adjustment to put them at lower T1 to T2 dps. That is all.</div><div> </div><div>PS when i say necros I mean all Summoner classes.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:11 PM</span></p>

Mode

03-15-2006, 04:16 AM

<div></div><div>One other thing... If you think Necros and Conjuror should be equal in DPS to Warlocks and Wizards. Fine.... be prepaired for a nerf, your not equal your beating us by 500 dps on almost every 70+ raid mob. So you might as well get yourself prepaired for the nerf. Its comming, now how much they bump warlocks and wizards could save some of your dps so all of you better start hoping for some major dps increases to warlocks and wizards in the next few patches.</div><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p>

MilkToa

03-15-2006, 04:20 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:<div>Sony why nerf pet classes at all ? Maybe what you need to do is up Sorcerer Dps instead of Nerfing Pet class dps</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>My guess is that SOE thinks that the current DPS of sorcerers is high enough but that summoners are exceeding their target DPS. Although I'd prefer an increase in sorcerer DPS I don't think that is what will happen. Increasing DPS would also result in having to fix the taunt problem since most tanks have a hard time holding aggro with current DPS levels.</p><p> </p>

Mode

03-15-2006, 04:22 AM

<div>A questions for the dev's :</div><div> </div><div>If you raise the hitpoints on a mob from 500k to 1million dont you think the mana of pure casting classes should be doubled as well?</div><div> </div><div>Tanks went from 12k hitpoints to 15k in this expantion going from T6 fabled to T7 Legendary... I went from 5k mana to 6500 mana doing the same... You finally make gear have some meaning for casters but the amount of caster gear with 100+ mana is very limited. I'm sure your saving it for T7 Fabled, i just hope you put and equal amount of caster drops in as plate.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

retro_guy

03-16-2006, 07:32 AM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div>One other thing... If you think Necros and Conjuror should be equal in DPS to Warlocks and Wizards. Fine.... be prepaired for a nerf, your not equal your beating us by 500 dps on almost every 70+ raid mob. So you might as well get yourself prepaired for the nerf. Its comming, now how much they bump warlocks and wizards could save some of your dps so all of you better start hoping for some major dps increases to warlocks and wizards in the next few patches.</div><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ok, if the conjurors or necros are doing more damage than that "are supposed to in raids" then it's actually the wizards and other classes that need to have their group buffs nerfed.Conjurors do the damage they do in raids because of having buffs from other players increasing their intelligence and adding other buffs.Either that or stop giving us your stupid smells buffs. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I honestly cannot understand your mentality.When you're in a raid you want all the DPS you can get, and you're complaining about a few of the raid doing more DPS than you're capable of. Do you want the raid to succeed or not??I still fail to see evidence of this, and while that conj/necro might be able to get amasing DPS for a couple of minutes, there is more to playing the class than hitting high on the pharser. If I go flat out, I will 1) pull agro, 2) run out of power before the fight is over 3) Then not have any power for the next fight.Playing a conj/necro is a balance between hitting hard and controlling power usage. I find it hard to believe a summoner who is playing "sensibly" would be constantly getting he highest DPS in a raid.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 PM</span></p>

Numinor

03-16-2006, 12:37 PM

<div></div><p>When do I start nuking 90% as well as a wizard? At 49th, my big nuke is hitting for 345 pts, tops. My wizard recently hit 31st, and he's well into the 900's with his big hit, with a secondardy hitting mid 600's. I am all pet at 49th, without my pets, I could probably chain cast with HO's and come in side by side with the guardian. As he keeps reminding me, he's there to take the hits, I'm there to kill the mob.</p><p>Any changes made need to be tested across the board, not just the elite 70 all masters and adept 3 uber fabled wearing folks.</p>

Numinor

03-16-2006, 12:47 PM

<div></div><p>Darn, I don't have edit ability yet. What frustrates me is ... I really think that a wizard should be doing more damage than me if equal level and comparable spells. I've only grouped with 1 wizard post 40, and to be honest, fights didn't last long enough for any meaningful comparison.</p><p>In my opinion though, the reasonable way to do this would be to slightly bump wizards by fiddling with casting times / reuse timers and power costs. In all the trashy fantasy books I love to read (Riftwar series, any of the Forgotten Realms or D&D based books, Sword of Truth series, etc), the wizard is THE one person you don't want to tick off. I like that image, and always get a grin when they do get ticked off.</p><p>As to the ranger nerf, I agree wholeheartedly that it was overdone, but from the friend I have who plays a ranger, most of his moaning is that he can no longer solo yellow heroics... I can't solo yellow heroics either, so I can't feel too much sympathy there.</p>

Wingrider01

03-16-2006, 05:34 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Numinor wrote:<div></div><p><u>When do I start nuking 90% as well as a wizard? At 49th, my big nuke is hitting for 345 pts, tops</u>. My wizard recently hit 31st, and he's well into the 900's with his big hit, with a secondardy hitting mid 600's. I am all pet at 49th, without my pets, I could probably chain cast with HO's and come in side by side with the guardian. As he keeps reminding me, he's there to take the hits, I'm there to kill the mob.</p><p>Any changes made need to be tested across the board, not just the elite 70 all masters and adept 3 uber fabled wearing folks.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Curious what spell is that and at what level of spell - App, Adept X-XXX, master? Little confused about your second poart, not quite sure what class it is actually supposed to be</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Wingrider01 on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:36 AM</span></p>

Geothe

03-16-2006, 07:50 PM

<div></div><p>"Curious what spell is that and at what level of spell - App, Adept X-XXX, master? Little confused about your second poart, not quite sure what class it is actually supposed to be"</p><p>Erm. The Conj's ONLY actual nuke. And yes. that number is about right.</p><p>Off of the top of my head.. starting at the upper 40s until level 56 (i think?) the Words of Force DD Spell from the split paw AP is actually better than our normal nuke. I think the upgrade that we get at the lvl 56 (?) is around 400-600 range. But that number is off the top of my head. havne't played my conjy in about a week.</p>

schrammy

03-16-2006, 08:23 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Senr wrote:<span><div><blockquote><font color="#ccffcc">This is a common problem in this thread. <font size="4">People have cherry-picked the best abilities of a necro and the best abilities of a conjuror to describe the swiss-army knife character that doesn't exist.</font> I'll admit that we do outdamage most classes in raids. Part of it is no doubt just that we can send our pets in and move out of AE range, where as warlocks and wizards have to avoid the AE. But our utility is nothing special.</font></blockquote></span></div><hr>BINGO</blockquote><p>There is some mythical summoner class out there with FD, COH, Damage Shields, Group Heals, Self Heals, Stoneskin, etc etc etc.</p><hr></blockquote>There is! And its me! Fear my PINK SCALEBORN DRESS <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wingrider01

03-16-2006, 11:40 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geothe wrote:<div></div><p>"Curious what spell is that and at what level of spell - App, Adept X-XXX, master? Little confused about your second poart, not quite sure what class it is actually supposed to be"</p><p>Erm. The Conj's ONLY actual nuke. And yes. that number is about right.</p><p>Off of the top of my head.. starting at the upper 40s until level 56 (i think?) the Words of Force DD Spell from the split paw AP is actually better than our normal nuke. I think the upgrade that we get at the lvl 56 (?) is around 400-600 range. But that number is off the top of my head. havne't played my conjy in about a week.</p><hr></blockquote>Now I understand what he was saying.... DOH

Mode

03-17-2006, 12:42 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div>One other thing... If you think Necros and Conjuror should be equal in DPS to Warlocks and Wizards. Fine.... be prepaired for a nerf, your not equal your beating us by 500 dps on almost every 70+ raid mob. So you might as well get yourself prepaired for the nerf. Its comming, now how much they bump warlocks and wizards could save some of your dps so all of you better start hoping for some major dps increases to warlocks and wizards in the next few patches.</div><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Playing a conj/necro is a balance between hitting hard and controlling power usage. I find it hard to believe a summoner who is playing "sensibly" would be constantly getting he highest DPS in a raid.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I guess you should raid more then. I have been beat on every single T7 X4 raid mob we have fought by a necro. I'm also not wanting to see necros nerfed, hell I have four of them in my raid guild just for all there dps and utility; (heals, res, FD, and pet pulls) are time savers on raids so while the common necro does not see these as utility a raiding guild does. If they were just slighting beating me I would just complain about it quitely and look for ways I could slightly increase my dps so I could out damage them, since of course Damage is the only utility I bring to a raid. However the contest is not even close.<p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:43 AM</span></p>

03-17-2006, 03:13 AM

<blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Modean wrote:<div></div><div>One other thing... If you think Necros and Conjuror should be equal in DPS to Warlocks and Wizards. Fine.... be prepaired for a nerf, your not equal your beating us by 500 dps on almost every 70+ raid mob. So you might as well get yourself prepaired for the nerf. Its comming, now how much they bump warlocks and wizards could save some of your dps so all of you better start hoping for some major dps increases to warlocks and wizards in the next few patches.</div><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Playing a conj/necro is a balance between hitting hard and controlling power usage. I find it hard to believe a summoner who is playing "sensibly" would be constantly getting he highest DPS in a raid.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I guess you should raid more then. I have been beat on every single T7 X4 raid mob we have fought by a necro. I'm also not wanting to see necros nerfed, hell I have four of them in my raid guild just for all there dps and utility; (heals, res, FD, and pet pulls) are time savers on raids so while the common necro does not see these as utility a raiding guild does. If they were just slighting beating me I would just complain about it quitely and look for ways I could slightly increase my dps so I could out damage them, since of course Damage is the only utility I bring to a raid. However the contest is not even close.<p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class="date_text">03-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The problem with you and every other post is that you either don't see why or want to understand why necros out DPS you...Its not becasue of pure DPS... Its 90% due to the sole fact that necro DPS is constant and sustainable. Esp in T6 and T7 mobs you have to joust, necro pets don't joust... they stay in combat and constantly do damage. In fact, when everyone else is called to move out of agro range due to Mob AoEs, pets and dumbfires are sent in to tell you when the AoE goes off...The simple lack of need to stop doing damage helps summoners greatly in the DPS war... Nerfing summoners to fix this would have drastic affects on raid and summoners in every other aspect of the game.

ChaosUndivided

03-17-2006, 04:28 AM

<div></div><p>Few things.</p><p> </p><p>a) For people mentioning Adept 1 to Master 1 or trying to bring skill levels into it. Point is moot. If a Summoner with App 1's Outdps's a Predator with App 1's. It' just as imbalanced as a Summoner with Master 1's outdpsing a Predator with M1's. As long as you compare the same spell rank across the classes it doesn't matter how much actual dps they do, only how much dps they do relative to each other.</p><p>b) Sorceror's and Predator's are supposed to do more DPS than Summoners. Currently that is not the case in most situations. This is not opinion, this is fact. It will be fixed and no amount of argument about who has XXX utility will change it. DPS tier's are there for a reason.</p><p>c) For the poster who mentioned " Our DPS comes from other's buffing us, if you want us to do less dps stop buffing us", sorry but rangers suffered from the same problem too and they got fixed. Using that excuse won't save you.</p><p> </p><p>Let's all be honest now for a second, in a perfect world all the classes are balanced and no one ever gets nerfed. But the reality of it is, you simply CANNOT keep boosting upwards without rebalancing the game around it, so take your lumps and ride it out. Classes WILL be nerfed for the sake of balance it is a reality, no amount of denial or shouting will prevent it.</p><p> </p><p>C'est la vie!</p>

Marcos

03-17-2006, 04:54 AM

<div></div>It's really intersting that all these Rangers and Warlocks are crying nerf the "Summoners" as I have never seen a Conjuror ever do 1000 to 2000 dps like I have seen those classes do consistently. First let me state I have a Level 69 Conjurorer, 69 Wizard and also a 61 Warlock while my friend plays a 69 Swashbuckler. My Conjuror and Wizard all have adept3 or Master damage spells while my friends Swashbuckler has only adept1 combat arts. We parse every battle and depending on the mobs different classes win the dps game. Example on regular named mobs most times either my Wizard or his Swashbuckler will out DPS the Conjuror with either the Adept3 Air pet or Master Fire pet. The Swashbuckler with tier 7 poisons can easily do major damage and if the wizard is going all out nuking and mob doesn't resist they are comparable. On major named like the end boss in the Vault of Elzarad who has over 330k of hit points either the Conjuror using the Air pet or the Swashbuckler wins the dps game. The Wizard runs out of power and so does the Conjuror and it all depends on how effective the Swashbucklers poisons are. So as you see things are situational, as to raid mobs with AOE there is no way a Conjuror will be able to outdamage any good scout due to the fact you have to use your tank pet and they have a hard time outdamaging a Paladin. The other 2 pets just get toasted by any aoe and it takes too long to recast the pet to keep a high dps. People stop trying to claim you know something about a class if you don't own that class and work it. Their have been raids where my 69 Paladin shows up in the top 6 with dps over 400 does that mean I am a dps machine? No its situational and resists come into it and if I am using a sword with a major damage process all those things make a difference and are not the same in 2 consectutive mobs. Either way I play all the accounts and am a very good player with well outfitted characters and they all are pretty well matched depending on the situation. Heck in Poets Palace Return my Warlock can easily do 2000 dps due to all the group mobs which I guess according to all the posts here means he should be nerfed. See you can make that argument for all the dps classes depending on the parse, the mob and the player.

MilkToa

03-17-2006, 05:11 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Marcos wrote:<div></div>It's really intersting that all these Rangers and Warlocks are crying nerf the "Summoners" as I have never seen a Conjuror ever do 1000 to 2000 dps like I have seen those classes do consistently. First let me state I have a Level 69 Conjurorer, 69 Wizard and also a 61 Warlock while my friend plays a 69 Swashbuckler. My Conjuror and Wizard all have adept3 or Master damage spells while my friends Swashbuckler has only adept1 combat arts. We parse every battle and depending on the mobs different classes win the dps game. Example on regular named mobs most times either my Wizard or his Swashbuckler will out DPS the Conjuror with either the Adept3 Air pet or Master Fire pet. The Swashbuckler with tier 7 poisons can easily do major damage and if the wizard is going all out nuking and mob doesn't resist they are comparable. On major named like the end boss in the Vault of Elzarad who has over 330k of hit points either the Conjuror using the Air pet or the Swashbuckler wins the dps game. The Wizard runs out of power and so does the Conjuror and it all depends on how effective the Swashbucklers poisons are. So as you see things are situational, as to raid mobs with AOE there is no way a Conjuror will be able to outdamage any good scout due to the fact you have to use your tank pet and they have a hard time outdamaging a Paladin. The other 2 pets just get toasted by any aoe and it takes too long to recast the pet to keep a high dps. People stop trying to claim you know something about a class if you don't own that class and work it. Their have been raids where my 69 Paladin shows up in the top 6 with dps over 400 does that mean I am a dps machine? No its situational and resists come into it and if I am using a sword with a major damage process all those things make a difference and are not the same in 2 consectutive mobs. Either way I play all the accounts and am a very good player with well outfitted characters and they all are pretty well matched depending on the situation. Heck in Poets Palace Return my Warlock can easily do 2000 dps due to all the group mobs which I guess according to all the posts here means he should be nerfed. See you can make that argument for all the dps classes depending on the parse, the mob and the player. <hr></blockquote><p>I see it all the time in AE encounters where a conjurer is matching my warlock in DPS with rates in excess of 1000 DPS.</p><p> </p>

Ymir The Puppeteer

03-17-2006, 05:32 AM

<div>OK, first</div><div> </div><div>One I am a conjuror! Stop calling my class a Necro, or /godforbid/ a Summoner, cause firstly, since live update 19..... summoners don't actually exist....... and I have never ever animated anything dead.</div><div> </div><div>Two Folk that don't play a conjuror might be missing the fact in their parses that when we sacrifice our pet for that all powerful 1000+ hp and 300+ power heal, we are doing 150% total damage strike to our pet that does show up in our parse list as a hit from us! No big deal you may say right? Not true..... I have hit my pet for 13 500 hitpoints, and that sure screws up parses...... so, check your facts, is therte any way that durring your parse time, your conju sacked their pet? cause if so, toss your numbers out, cause we do more friendly fire then the US Airforce on manuvers with Canada.</div>

Traxor789

03-17-2006, 09:57 AM

<div></div><p>Lets not get to Nurf crazy on conjurors. Im level 68 and to totally nurf every pet I have going back to pre DoF where conjurors didnt use Fire pets, Didnt use Air pets, we used our tank pet. He sayed alive longer and he out meleed the air pet. In my opinion conjurors don't have the utility of a Necromancer. (Fear, Revive, Fait Death, Life taps) Conjurors get a 75% snare, (good job on Plane Shift , currentlly is a rocking spell at M1) and our good pets. Take away good pets and i have a worthless Plane Shift and pets will no longer do dps and i can snare and take up 1 spot in a raid force.</p><p> </p><p>All in all, Please , Please don't nurf Conjurors as hard as you did Rangers. Pets are all we have and you taking all I have (including love) and washing away my grind time in KoS.</p><p> </p><p>Summona , Grobb, 68 Conjuror</p>

Wingrider01

03-17-2006, 05:19 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Marcos wrote:<div></div>It's really intersting that all these Rangers and Warlocks are crying nerf the "Summoners" as I have never seen a Conjuror ever do 1000 to 2000 dps like I have seen those classes do consistently. First let me state I have a Level 69 Conjurorer, 69 Wizard and also a 61 Warlock while my friend plays a 69 Swashbuckler. My Conjuror and Wizard all have adept3 or Master damage spells while my friends Swashbuckler has only adept1 combat arts. We parse every battle and depending on the mobs different classes win the dps game. Example on regular named mobs most times either my Wizard or his Swashbuckler will out DPS the Conjuror with either the Adept3 Air pet or Master Fire pet. The Swashbuckler with tier 7 poisons can easily do major damage and if the wizard is going all out nuking and mob doesn't resist they are comparable. On major named like the end boss in the Vault of Elzarad who has over 330k of hit points either the Conjuror using the Air pet or the Swashbuckler wins the dps game. The Wizard runs out of power and so does the Conjuror and it all depends on how effective the Swashbucklers poisons are. So as you see things are situational, as to raid mobs with AOE there is no way a Conjuror will be able to outdamage any good scout due to the fact you have to use your tank pet and they have a hard time outdamaging a Paladin. The other 2 pets just get toasted by any aoe and it takes too long to recast the pet to keep a high dps. People stop trying to claim you know something about a class if you don't own that class and work it. Their have been raids where my 69 Paladin shows up in the top 6 with dps over 400 does that mean I am a dps machine? No its situational and resists come into it and if I am using a sword with a major damage process all those things make a difference and are not the same in 2 consectutive mobs. Either way I play all the accounts and am a very good player with well outfitted characters and they all are pretty well matched depending on the situation. Heck in Poets Palace Return my Warlock can easily do 2000 dps due to all the group mobs which I guess according to all the posts here means he should be nerfed. See you can make that argument for all the dps classes depending on the parse, the mob and the player. <hr></blockquote><p>I see it all the time in AE encounters where a conjurer is matching my warlock in DPS with rates in excess of 1000 DPS.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>riiiigggghhhhhtttttt.........

TheSlashman

03-17-2006, 06:00 PM

<div></div>I agree, I see our conj out dpsing me in raids and I am a warlock.

Marcos

03-17-2006, 08:03 PM

<div></div>Okay you see a Conjuror out DPSing your warlock on raids but what type of mobs? Single target no AOE? or groups? My conjuror has master fire pet 2 master aoe's and I can't come close to out dpsing a good Warlock on groups of mobs thats ridiculous as my AOE doesn't hit for thousands of points of damage. If you are saying against a single mob with no AOE and i can use my air pet with blazing presence then sure I can out DPS a Warlock. But again its situational through in a AOE and bam my Air pet and his paper armor is dead, forget the fire pet as he has no hitpoints at all even when buffed by a Templar and Warden. So don't just post I see a Conjuror out DPSing my Warlock on raids but state what's the situation. Because if a Conjuror is out dpsing you on groups of mobs you guys need to do something about play style and your spells. If it's a single target mob no AOE sure the Conjuror will out dps you and should as Warlock are the group mob kings.

AbsentmindedMage

03-17-2006, 09:51 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>TheSlashman wrote:<div></div>I agree, I see our conj out dpsing me in raids and I am a warlock.<hr></blockquote>Blah, It is very tiresome to see people constantly saying that they should always under every possible situation be the highest damage dealer. No where has that ever been said or written by anyone in development. The tier damage chart is a guideline it is not a set in stone thing which will be true for very single person under every single possible situation. They have said countless times now that equipment, buffs, group makeup, and type of encounter are all variables. For example, an encounter which does significant area of effects will have a conjuror begging to be in his appropriate tier since his pets and dumbfire pet dots will be of little use. Another example, there are many raid encounters where mezzing or rooting is necessary. A conjuror (and warlocks for that matter to a lesser extent since they still have a few direct high damage spells) is going to parse much lower in this situation since his group target spells and area effect spells are not going to be able to be used. A wizard and predator will be best at situations like this since it involves targetting and focusing on a single target.</span><div></div>

ChaosUndivided

03-17-2006, 10:20 PM

<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div>

Mode

03-17-2006, 11:43 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Finally someone else that sees what I see... </p><p> </p><p> </p>

03-17-2006, 11:50 PM

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>The problem with your thinking is, that this IS a situation. Raids themselves are a unique thing. Summoners being T1 DPS during raids means that summoners are top DPS during parts of the game vs mobs with 100K + HPs(or any epic encounter in general.) THIS IS the exception.Summoners are closer to T2 when you concider the avg mob, killable in the avg timespan. THAT is the rule.I don't have the quote... but you quote hounding dweebs seem to forget the ones where MG and other Devs stated that during raids and long encounters, summoners WOULD out DPS pure damage doers... its part of the summoner design to do slower DPS in general, but more consistent damage over the long haul.Its freaking hilarious seeing all the ignorant crap about the damage tiers, but you constantly leave out the fact that they also said that in long fights summoners would show their strengths...

Jai1

03-18-2006, 12:51 AM

<div></div>Yeah the arguement can't be applied towards raids. The long duration spells with low power consumption builds up the class(necro) to be strong such encounters. I imagine conj is a little bit of the same. If its a group encounters it's one thing but raids? All T1 classes run out of power while we are still kicking. They would have to implement some extreme changes to the class's makeup to knock them out as raid damage kings. The result would eliminate the class defining attributes mainly long duration low power spells. Necros basically have a never ending power supply. We see how that works out in long encounters.

03-18-2006, 01:08 AM

Its not just a power issue. Its the way raid mobs are done. MoB AoEs and other attacks that cause pure DPS classes to stop nuking, or control their nukage, don't have as much impact on summoners. They DID already nerf this when they made dumbfire pets die to AoEs.But summoners now have so many pet options, good summoners know how to maximize pet damage. But again, this is how pet classes and RAIDS were designed to work.

ChaosUndivided

03-18-2006, 03:41 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jai1 wrote:<div></div>Yeah the arguement can't be applied towards raids. The long duration spells with low power consumption builds up the class(necro) to be strong such encounters. I imagine conj is a little bit of the same. If its a group encounters it's one thing but raids? All T1 classes run out of power while we are still kicking. They would have to implement some extreme changes to the class's makeup to knock them out as raid damage kings. The result would eliminate the class defining attributes mainly long duration low power spells. Necros basically have a never ending power supply. We see how that works out in long encounters. <hr></blockquote><p>That's a fluff argument. I'm talking in general about 1-1.5min fights. Fights with no Ae's. Fight's with 2-3 Mobs.</p><p>Our sorceror's have power still when that 1.5mins is over and after going balls out chain nuking they still fall short of summoners by 2-400 dps.</p><p> </p><p>Do you guys really consider a 1.5min fight long?</p>

03-18-2006, 04:00 AM

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jai1 wrote:<div></div>Yeah the arguement can't be applied towards raids. The long duration spells with low power consumption builds up the class(necro) to be strong such encounters. I imagine conj is a little bit of the same. If its a group encounters it's one thing but raids? All T1 classes run out of power while we are still kicking. They would have to implement some extreme changes to the class's makeup to knock them out as raid damage kings. The result would eliminate the class defining attributes mainly long duration low power spells. Necros basically have a never ending power supply. We see how that works out in long encounters. <hr></blockquote><p>That's a fluff argument. I'm talking in general about 1-1.5min fights. Fights with no Ae's. Fight's with 2-3 Mobs.</p><p>Our sorceror's have power still when that 1.5mins is over and after going balls out chain nuking they still fall short of summoners by 2-400 dps.</p><p> </p><p>Do you guys really consider a 1.5min fight long?</p><hr></blockquote>Yes. Concidering the avg non-raid mob is under 20 seconds... In which time summoner MIGHT cast 2 spells for an underwelming amount of damage.

Draughi

03-20-2006, 05:04 AM

<div>While I hate cry nerf a class....there could only be two fixes. Either bring everyone elses DPS up, or drop conj/necs. Easier seems to be drop those 2. I hate saying it, but most often conjurors/necros are the T1 DPS'rs in all our raids. It's unfortunate that they wil get nerfed. Sucks to be on top, everyone trying to topple you. 68 ranger speaking from experience...when no other class comes near you in damage...the spotlight is on.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

Wingrider01

03-20-2006, 05:24 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Draughith wrote:<div>While I hate cry nerf a class....there could only be two fixes. Either bring everyone elses DPS up, or drop conj/necs. Easier seems to be drop those 2. I hate saying it, but most often conjurors/necros are the T1 DPS'rs in all our raids. It's unfortunate that they wil get nerfed. Sucks to be on top, everyone trying to topple you. 68 ranger speaking from experience...when no other class comes near you in damage...the spotlight is on.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>this needs to be split, you drop the nec/conj in raid instances then you inhibite the ones that don;t have the pleasure of raiding, and end up soloing. Get out of the RAID mode of thinking, most players do not raid, they are not members of those guilds thast do hold raids. Basicly all you are saying is there shoiuld only be one level of nec/conj - raid, since you are doing so well in raid, then the whole need to be invalidated and thrown out of the game. Your statement about being on top is not correct it is because nec/conj are the target of tunnel vision thinking, type casting and profiling</p><p>It is good to see that heritage quests are not the only things that where carried over from Everquest 1.....</p><p>Message Edited by Wingrider01 on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:26 AM</span></p>

Magiocracy

03-20-2006, 06:20 PM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p>

KBern

03-20-2006, 08:13 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p>

Fennir

03-20-2006, 08:30 PM

Here's a real life parse of Vaults of El'Arad. I removed broken encounters. There are a couple fights in there where the conjuror was AFK. I was going all out, and so was the conj (he got agro and died a lot).This is a little over an hour of fighting:<img src="http://www.improvmasta.org/eq2/vaultdps.jpg">i probly just suck at ranger tho<div></div>

TheSlashman

03-20-2006, 08:33 PM

<div>Some people that say their conjurer doesnt lead on dps must not know how to play their conjurer. My guildie 90% of the time in AOE and single target is on the top of the charts. If a warlock is the AOE king, SOE needs to make it that way.</div>

Draughi

03-20-2006, 08:37 PM

<div>To be objective in theis arguement you almost HAVE to use raiding conjurors/necros, wizzies/warlocks, rangers/assassins. DPS should only be something you worry about in raid encounters. As a ranger, I can't tank, helll I can barely solo now...but neither here nor there. I don't worry about my DPS on single encounters. I could probably out DPS most classes on single encounters..I one shot a lot of things still. So that's 6k DPS...single encounter. Where people need to consider DPS is when the MT shouts increase DPS now! I don't use my 15 minute recast 7k shot. IT's then I hit with my dots and fast recast mid damage skills. </div><div> </div><div>My point is, if your not raiding, you shouldnt worry about your DPS. Class balance/utility is more of an arguement for the single group encounters; solo encounters. Summoners have pets, sorcerers have roots and stuns, etc....... </div><div> </div><div>The only time I parse is during raids. To do otherwise would horrendously skew DPS numbers, as fights need to be about 1-2 minutes in length to give a good average of DPS. Statistically, in solo encounters, Assassins are the highest DPS as they have the highest damaging spells. AE single/group encounters, warlocks...and now wizards are the masters...most high hitting AE spells. Raid encounters summoners have pets, DD's and dots. The MAJORITY of their damage is from their pets. You have a pet that utilizes the same CA's as scouts/sorcerers/tanks and follows the same principles of AE avoidance etc and puts out a significant amount of damage, but can be re-summoned once killed. Granted, the damage they deal is nowhere near the true player class, but significant nevertheless. Top this with some decent dots/DD's and no other class can compete DPSwise in raid encounters. This is what most people are complaining about. I don't want to see the drop in DPS from anyone as it hurts all classes in raid situations when DPS can mean wipe or not. But I believe this is the argument. </div>

Magiocracy

03-20-2006, 08:38 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sigh...I might just as well say that you're deliberately lying in order to keep your Necro dps higher than everyone elses. I'm simply telling you what I see, and it happens to match the experience of many many others, but no doubt they're all exaggerating and bull****ing as well /sarcasm off. Or perhaps rather than accusing me (and by proxy everyone else who sees the same thing) of being liars, you could do something constructive for a change and tell us your exact experience of how Summoner/Sorcerer dps matches up ? And incidentally, if you bother to read what I said in full instead of selectively, I said 'almost always' - outdps'ing Necro's on short trash mob fights is hardly the hardstick by which to measure t1 dps.But there's little point in arguing with people like you, some people still believe the world is flat and some people still believe that there's nothing wrong with Summoner dps and no amount of accumulated evidence will persuade either group that they're wrong.Oh, and one more thing - take your condescending 'learn to play' attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine, or go play on the WoW forums where that sort of inane 'L2P' reply is de rigeur.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:08 PM</span></p>

MilkToa

03-20-2006, 09:15 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>All I've seen from you is personal insults to anyone who doesn't share your opinion; other people offer their first hand observations you offer insults.</p><p> </p>

KBern

03-20-2006, 09:22 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>All I've seen from you is personal insults to anyone who doesn't share your opinion; other people offer their first hand observations you offer insults.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I respond in kind.</p><p>It is ok for him to call people who do not agree wit him blind and stupid, but not the reverse.</p><p>Some of you on here, you included, and him, spout exaggerations every post you make.</p><p>You pretend you are beyond [Removed for Content] and need so much fixng.</p><p>Well even members of your own class do not agree and agree with much of what I say on your Nerf everyone but me threads.</p><p>They get really old and pathetic after a bit.</p><p>I have never denied what a necro can do in the right situations unlike some of you warlocks. You basically refuse to admit what a good played warlock can do, so that makes me believe you and think you may not know how to maximize your class.</p><p>In short fights, a well played warlock should never be out DPS's by a necro.</p><p>Long fights, sure, but short fights, no way.</p><p>In response to the ranger parsing Al'erad, 1.5 minute fights in there is not short and those mobs have so many hps, it does not surprise me that the constant DPS of the conj shines in that situations.</p><p>Again, i dont deny what necros can do in proper situation, unlike the perma-gimped whine some of you warlocks try to make your class out to be.</p><p>But keep whining, SOE may belieive some of it, but you know as well as I do, you guys are no where as bad off as you try to continuoulsy pretend you are.</p>

Fennir

03-20-2006, 09:33 PM

<div></div><hr width="100%" size="2">it does not surprise me that the constant DPS of the conj shines in that situations.<hr width="100%" size="2"><div></div>Of course it doesn't surprise you. You've gotten used to overpowered summoners.What situations are they not supposed to "shine" in? Fights that last 8-12s?Do you really think that's what the devs meant when they came up with DPS tiers? rofledit: did you even read my parse right? that's not one fight. that's the whole zone. most of those fights were 30-45s, and I was never OOP. I parse DPS the right way: over time.<p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:35 AM</span></p>

Magiocracy

03-20-2006, 09:38 PM

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>MilkToast wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>All I've seen from you is personal insults to anyone who doesn't share your opinion; other people offer their first hand observations you offer insults.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I respond in kind.</p><p>It is ok for him to call people who do not agree wit him blind and stupid, but not the reverse.</p><p>Some of you on here, you included, and him, spout exaggerations every post you make.</p><p>You pretend you are beyond [Removed for Content] and need so much fixng.</p><p>Well even members of your own class do not agree and agree with much of what I say on your Nerf everyone but me threads.</p><p>They get really old and pathetic after a bit.</p><p>I have never denied what a necro can do in the right situations unlike some of you warlocks. You basically refuse to admit what a good played warlock can do, so that makes me believe you and think you may not know how to maximize your class.</p><p>In short fights, a well played warlock should never be out DPS's by a necro.</p><p>Long fights, sure, but short fights, no way.</p><p>In response to the ranger parsing Al'erad, 1.5 minute fights in there is not short and those mobs have so many hps, it does not surprise me that the constant DPS of the conj shines in that situations.</p><p>Again, i dont deny what necros can do in proper situation, unlike the perma-gimped whine some of you warlocks try to make your class out to be.</p><p>But keep whining, SOE may belieive some of it, but you know as well as I do, you guys are no where as bad off as you try to continuoulsy pretend you are.</p><hr></blockquote>Let me try this one more time for clarity.Summoners are the broken component in the system here, not Sorcerers. As far as I can see (but no doubt I'm lying/bull****ing again) Warlock dps is largely in line with the other t1 classes - Assassins/Wizards/Rangers (Rangers will have to reevalauted with the LU21 changes) - that is to say around 7-800 dps on non-trash fights. It's the 1k+ Summoner dps that is out of line relative to all the supposedly t1 classes. I'm not asking for Warlocks to be boosted, I'm asking for Summoners to fixed.Oh, and I'm glad to see that you've another convenient explanation for why Fennir's parse doesn't count. I expect you have a similar justification lined up for every parse that doesn't support your point of view..</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:41 PM</span></p>

KBern

03-20-2006, 09:44 PM

<div></div><p>Yes to be honest none of our parses mean much.</p><p>Are you a game designer? I know I am not.</p><p>Do you know the lvls of the mobs, of the classes, of the grade of spells, type of resists mobs had, what the other members were doing? etc etc etc.</p><p>I am do not pretend I am a dev and can read parses and make logical intepretations. You shouldnt either.</p><p>I dont deny what necros can do and when they posted were getting our pets nerfed, you didnt see me crying.</p><p>You dont see me asking for nerfs for any classes and trust me, many more need it than just summoners.</p><p>When the devs decide to fix us if we are so broken, i will live with it and not take the route of some of you dying to see other classes nerfed.</p><p>That is what gets under my skin. If we are broken, SOE will fix it, and they are the experts. Not you parse hounds who think you understand what the numbers mean.</p><p>Keep working at getting other classes nerfed, I will enjoy the game and post refutes to the same types of threads I have been.</p>

Fennir

03-20-2006, 10:03 PM

I'm not posting to get a class nerfed. I'm responding to your excuses, half-truths and ignorance, nothing more.<div></div>

KBern

03-20-2006, 10:08 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not posting to get a class nerfed. I'm responding to your excuses, half-truths and ignorance, nothing more.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, I am just trying to follow the precedent set on these threads I guess.</p><p> </p>

MagicWand

03-20-2006, 10:49 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Draughith wrote:<div>To be objective in theis arguement you almost HAVE to use raiding conjurors/necros, wizzies/warlocks, rangers/assassins. DPS should only be something you worry about in raid encounters. As a ranger, I can't tank, helll I can barely solo now...but neither here nor there. I don't worry about my DPS on single encounters. I could probably out DPS most classes on single encounters..I one shot a lot of things still. So that's 6k DPS...single encounter. Where people need to consider DPS is when the MT shouts increase DPS now! I don't use my 15 minute recast 7k shot. IT's then I hit with my dots and fast recast mid damage skills. </div><div> </div><div>My point is, if your not raiding, you shouldnt worry about your DPS. Class balance/utility is more of an arguement for the single group encounters; solo encounters. Summoners have pets, sorcerers have roots and stuns, etc....... </div><div> </div><div>The only time I parse is during raids. To do otherwise would horrendously skew DPS numbers, as fights need to be about 1-2 minutes in length to give a good average of DPS. Statistically, in solo encounters, Assassins are the highest DPS as they have the highest damaging spells. AE single/group encounters, warlocks...and now wizards are the masters...most high hitting AE spells. Raid encounters summoners have pets, DD's and dots. The MAJORITY of their damage is from their pets. You have a pet that utilizes the same CA's as scouts/sorcerers/tanks and follows the same principles of AE avoidance etc and puts out a significant amount of damage, but can be re-summoned once killed. Granted, the damage they deal is nowhere near the true player class, but significant nevertheless. Top this with some decent dots/DD's and no other class can compete DPSwise in raid encounters. This is what most people are complaining about. I don't want to see the drop in DPS from anyone as it hurts all classes in raid situations when DPS can mean wipe or not. But I believe this is the argument. </div><hr></blockquote><p>Summoners should be Tier 2 DPS period. A pet should never out damage a Tier 1 DPS who is working his butt off just to keep up with a freaking pet. And its pretty silly that a conjurer/necro can solo heroics that other classes can only dream about doing. </p><p>Rangers needed a fix and now its time for the summoners to get in line where they should be Tier 2, not a Tier +1 like that are now. If summoners want to be the kings of long duration fights, might as well throw the Tier DPS tree out the window and give other Tier 2 classes like swashies, brigands, etc a boost and throw out any sense of game balance just to please all the FOTM kiddies/twinks.</p><p>A well played summoner should never Out-DPS a well played Tier 1 class. </p><p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p>

MilkToa

03-20-2006, 11:01 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I'm not posting to get a class nerfed. I'm responding to your excuses, half-truths and ignorance, nothing more.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, I am just trying to follow the precedent set on these threads I guess.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Just the worst part.</p><p> </p>

03-21-2006, 01:07 AM

<blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div>On single target Fights, necro's are outdpsing everyone(Our's parses 1200+). On ae Fights Conjurer's are out dpsing everyone (Ours parses 1100+). On both types of fights, Summoners in general are in the top 3 Parse. Above every tier 1 class. (Both our summoners parse 1k+ dps on average) </div><div>We all have master 1's, are skilled players and maximise groups to take full advantage of the classes. Don't try to use that as an excuse.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>It shouldn't be backwards, Tier 2 Outdamaging Tier 1 should be situational, we all agree. But as it stands now, Tier 1 outdamaging Tier 2 is even more situational.</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1 should be doing the most damage, most of the time.</div><hr></blockquote>This is very like my experience - on single targets Necro's push out 1200+ and on AE Conjurors churn out 1000+, both consistently. This is NOT about situational damage, this is about Summoners CONSISTENTLY outdamaging equally equipped Sorcerers.As a Warlock I don't expect to be top dps all the time (even in my so called role as 'king' of AE dps), but when I'm out-dpsed by a similarly equipped Conjuror on AE encounters ALMOST ALWAYS <font size="4">then you need to be either blind or stupid not to see there's a problem.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Or you are simply exaggerating and bull$#!+ing.</p><p>If you as a warlock cannot out DPS a necro in a short fight you need to re-learn how to play your class and figure out what YOU are doing wrong.</p><p>Simple as that.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sigh...I might just as well say that you're deliberately lying in order to keep your Necro dps higher than everyone elses. I'm simply telling you what I see, and it happens to match the experience of many many others, but no doubt they're all exaggerating and bull****ing as well /sarcasm off. Or perhaps rather than accusing me (and by proxy everyone else who sees the same thing) of being liars, you could do something constructive for a change and tell us your exact experience of how Summoner/Sorcerer dps matches up ? And incidentally, if you bother to read what I said in full instead of selectively, I said 'almost always' - outdps'ing Necro's on short trash mob fights is hardly the hardstick by which to measure t1 dps.But there's little point in arguing with people like you, some people still believe the world is flat and some people still believe that there's nothing wrong with Summoner dps and no amount of accumulated evidence will persuade either group that they're wrong.Oh, and one more thing - take your condescending 'learn to play' attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine, or go play on the WoW forums where that sort of inane 'L2P' reply is de rigeur.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:08 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Maybe you aught to ASK THAT QUESTION 1st!SoE has stated that those trash mobs you so conveniently disregard ARE what the Tier statements were BASED ON! Get that through your thick heads!90% of the game is made up of those kinds of fights, with mobs lasting between 5 and 20 seconds. Every non boss heroic, every regular encounter is these "trash" mobs... and Summoners slow star guarantees that they won't be top tier DPS unless the real T1 DPS isn't doing anything at all.So now you're whining becasue in the 10% of the game were mobs have conciderably more HPs, you're out DPSed? And now you make it appear as if that 10% of the game is really all that matters. This is why I say SCREW YOU! At least acknowledge that you're absolutely T1 versus the vast vast majority of the games content and you just want to dominate the other 10% as well, but don't sit here and lie or try to diminish the fact that vs an non epic fight, Wiz/War crank out fast and heavy damage, such that they can kill mobs before summoners even have a real chance to start casting.I spent all weekend in HoF with 1 wizard and a warlock... I could have pretty much not bothered showing up. I sent in pet and before I could cast 1 nuke the mobs were dead! My DPS was complete crap vs almost everything in the zone. Vs multi mob encounters... I get off 1 AoE and oops... mobs already dead... The only think I probably ruled DPS on were the named mobs...------Correcttion made below... vs epic Group x 2 or more mobs, most of our utility becomes useless. Vs those mobs all we have left is damage. Stifle/root/snare/stun/charm mean nothing vs those kinds of encounters.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:12 PM</span></p>

03-21-2006, 01:29 AM

<blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Draughith wrote:<div>To be objective in theis arguement you almost HAVE to use raiding conjurors/necros, wizzies/warlocks, rangers/assassins. DPS should only be something you worry about in raid encounters. As a ranger, I can't tank, helll I can barely solo now...but neither here nor there. I don't worry about my DPS on single encounters. I could probably out DPS most classes on single encounters..I one shot a lot of things still. So that's 6k DPS...single encounter. Where people need to consider DPS is when the MT shouts increase DPS now! I don't use my 15 minute recast 7k shot. IT's then I hit with my dots and fast recast mid damage skills. </div><div> </div><div>My point is, if your not raiding, you shouldnt worry about your DPS. Class balance/utility is more of an arguement for the single group encounters; solo encounters. Summoners have pets, sorcerers have roots and stuns, etc....... </div><div> </div><div>The only time I parse is during raids. To do otherwise would horrendously skew DPS numbers, as fights need to be about 1-2 minutes in length to give a good average of DPS. Statistically, in solo encounters, Assassins are the highest DPS as they have the highest damaging spells. AE single/group encounters, warlocks...and now wizards are the masters...most high hitting AE spells. Raid encounters summoners have pets, DD's and dots. The MAJORITY of their damage is from their pets. You have a pet that utilizes the same CA's as scouts/sorcerers/tanks and follows the same principles of AE avoidance etc and puts out a significant amount of damage, but can be re-summoned once killed. Granted, the damage they deal is nowhere near the true player class, but significant nevertheless. Top this with some decent dots/DD's and no other class can compete DPSwise in raid encounters. This is what most people are complaining about. I don't want to see the drop in DPS from anyone as it hurts all classes in raid situations when DPS can mean wipe or not. But I believe this is the argument. </div><hr></blockquote><p>Summoners should be Tier 2 DPS period. A pet should never out damage a Tier 1 DPS who is working his butt off just to keep up with a freaking pet. And its pretty silly that a conjurer/necro can solo heroics that other classes can only dream about doing. </p><p>Rangers needed a fix and now its time for the summoners to get in line where they should be Tier 2, not a Tier +1 like that are now. If summoners want to be the kings of long duration fights, might as well throw the Tier DPS tree out the window and give other Tier 2 classes like swashies, brigands, etc a boost and throw out any sense of game balance just to please all the FOTM kiddies/twinks.</p><p>A well played summoner should never Out-DPS a well played Tier 1 class. </p><p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And this is just your opinion mixed in with alot of complete BS and untruth.NO summoner pet will come close to the damage that a same leveled player will. NEVER. Rogue pets do NOT do as much damage as ANY of the rogue DPS classes. The mage pet does not nuke as well as a real wizard or warlock. Complete lies... I will grant you that summoners do need a small adjustment becasue the sum of pets plus its owner CAN do more damage that T1 DPS classes in any situation that lets a summoner start casting his/her own personal spells non stop. But again, those situations exist primarily vs mobs that live long enough that summoners can go though their entire line of spells.SoE's challenge with summoners is that pets are 60-75% as effective as the class they're based on, and the summoner class is 30-40% as effective as a pure wiz/war, put the two together and yes you have the potential to be better than avg. But that's already dealt with in some ways by the how summoner spells work.

KBern

03-21-2006, 01:48 AM

<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div>

MagicWand

03-21-2006, 01:55 AM

<div></div><p>Our opinions are meaningless, only one that counts is the Devs and they see a problem with summoner DPS and hence you will get nerfed. :smileywink:</p><p> </p>

Magiocracy

03-21-2006, 01:57 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, calling people liars and shouting 'SCREW YOU' are fine examples of reason and mature debate....errrr.not. I haven't seen any logic (or hard numbers) in either of your posts, but hey, please resume the schoolyard namecalling that you Summoners seem so fond of.</p><p>As Fennir said, all that's been on display from Summoners here are excuses, evasions and half-truths.</p><p>In any case these pulled changes give a clear indication as to how the devs are thinking - and unless these changes were completely random, it doesn't appear that they're thinking that Summoner dps is fine where it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p>

MrA

03-21-2006, 01:57 AM

<div></div>Hey just hold off on the neutering until after I hit 70. This way I wont care that no one will want me in a group cause necro/conj will be the most useless class after you take away their DPS...

Wingrider01

03-21-2006, 02:36 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><p>Our opinions are meaningless, only one that counts is the Devs and they see a problem with summoner DPS and hence you will get nerfed. :smileywink:</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>You are 100 percent right there - unfortunately in the tunnel vision they and the rest of the mob mentalty possess will only take into account what is seen with a raid level equipment nec/conj and modify accordingly. They will move these raid level equipped nec/conj down to tier 2 dps and walk away smiling and dusting off their hands. meanwhile the normal equipped solo level nec/conj will now start having their collective tookus's handed to them on a paper plate becuase their dps has been dropped to tier 4 making it impossible for them to play the game they want to. The total number of master nec/conj spells upgrades I have seen on the server in the last year at any one time can be counted on 1 hand, and still have enough digits available to give multiple rude gestures. Nerfed is not the word I would use for it.</p><p>It is good to see that heritage quests are not the only things that where carried over from Everquest Live</p>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 03:15 AM

<div></div>Maybe its just me, but i dont think there are clear lines on the DPS tree. What damage seperates T1 from T2???? I personally think the necro pets will have some realignment if there are problems, but i dont think they are going to take the kind of nerf that people are expecting. I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't much of a DPS difference from the bottom of T1DPS to the top of T2DPS. I could have swore that SOE stated that under different situations classes will vary on their DPS. I dont think any class should always hold the top DPS spot unless you are a wizard or warlock. Wizard and Locks should have the undisputed #1 DPS if they are trying. Im currently a mid level necro and there is no way in hell that me and my pet can out DPS a moderate Wizzy/Lock in an XP group. I know in raids on the pve server summoner types were right up there, where they should be as a DPS class, but hell we had tanks that were always way up there too (My main as an SK did well as did a few guardians, believe it or not). So what should we yell nerf the tanks again? I think a few people want the necro to be a non DPS class, but face it people the summoner types are a top DPS class and will continue to be even if they make pet changes. SOE made us to DPS<<<Sorry, but its the cold hard truth.. Just my 2 copper...

03-21-2006, 04:30 AM

<blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, calling people liars and shouting 'SCREW YOU' are fine examples of reason and mature debate....errrr.not. I haven't seen any logic (or hard numbers) in either of your posts, but hey, please resume the schoolyard namecalling that you Summoners seem so fond of.</p><p>As Fennir said, all that's been on display from Summoners here are excuses, evasions and half-truths.</p><p>In any case these pulled changes give a clear indication as to how the devs are thinking - and unless these changes were completely random, it doesn't appear that they're thinking that Summoner dps is fine where it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>- Numbers? where's yours?.... Oh you don't have any....- Maturity... yeah lying, half-truths, exageration... all signs of people still in high school using high school logic.- Yes... <b>PULLED</b> changes... and BTW, not only were they pulled, but they were pulled with the expressed statement that they had NO INTENTION OF RE-APPLYING THEM AT ANY POINT... or maybe you missed that part.To me that means they applied changes based on whining half accurate morons... then they did more internal testing and realized that the morons were wrong and trashed the whole thing!More in line with my true feelings is that they realized the truth was not as trivial as people like you make it out to be. I do expect a change at some point, but as I've saif before I don't expect summoners to be second class citizens to the "supposed" T1 classes. Summoners ARE supposed to be a damage classs, and some of you be sorely disapointed to find out that this is actually by design and not a bug.

The_Wind

03-21-2006, 10:36 AM

Man, so much hate and blood frenzy between these classes. As a ranger myself, I don't particularly care of a conjuror can out dps me. Most of the conjurors in here are right, to some degree. In trash mob, xp grind groups, a ranger will shine at a greater extent than any conjuror, as long as they are played 100% every time. With the new changes hitting the ranger side, perhaps some of our dps will be increased on sustained fights, disolving this great barier that so many seem to see in it. Do i believe a conjuror should be able to use everything they have, pets + nukes + utility to = my damage as a ranger? Yup, sure do. I believe all classes should be equal in terms of their abilities to do their jobs. The problem arises when the person asks, "What is my primary job?" With a ranger its very very clear. We are a DPS class, bred pure and simply. In burst dps a ranger is king. Rangers lack group buffs, save pathfinding. Ranger utility is aggro reduction. This is a form of utility wether you want to believe it or not. Just because it doesn't buff your group doesn't mean its a lack of utility. My being able to do max dps, without pulling aggro, due to my aggro reducers is good for my GROUP, not just me. But our primary job is damage. As a ranger, I only have one issue with my primary job. Its the requirement of consumables necessary to maintain it. Take my poisons away, take my arrows away, and i'd be nothing. No I do not want other classes to be required to use consumables to maintain their abilities. Please do not take me as saying that. Personally I do not know how to get out of our dependancy on poisons, however, our dependancy on arrows is easily fixed. This however is not the place to post my fixes for it.Summary: Parses suck. A good summoner is hard to find, but a bad one is everywhere. Rangers are getting to where we need to be, back at the top next to the rest of our amigos. Warlocks, sorry dont know what to say to you guys, but ya all seem like you got some issues to work out, wether with yourselves or with the Devs. I won't defend the people who constantly use parse data to try and prove their points. If at the end of the day I feel that my job duties were satisfied, then I am happy. If the next day rolls around, and I can get a group with some of the same people, and they remember me, then I have gone above and beyond my job duty.And last but not least: I am a ranger, not a summoner, not a sorcerer, not a tank. I will not tell you how to do your job, do not then proceed to tell me how to do mine. <div></div>

AbsentmindedMage

03-21-2006, 11:26 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:Here's a real life parse of Vaults of El'Arad. I removed broken encounters. There are a couple fights in there where the conjuror was AFK. I was going all out, and so was the conj (he got agro and died a lot).This is a little over an hour of fighting:<img src="http://www.improvmasta.org/eq2/vaultdps.jpg">i probly just suck at ranger tho<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, I am not going to defend a particular parse and say it is valid or invalid. There are somethings about this that I find interesting though.The first is that you took a 4 man group into Vaults with the main tank being a monk! This zone is extremely crazy and is not conned to the appropriate level. I am suprised that you were able to get through it within the time you indicate. Congrats on that. Monks are not particularly good as main tanks due to their few taunts to keep aggro. Not only that you say that the conjuror was afk for a bit. So, you were doing it with a 3 man group for awhile. <span>:smileysurprised:</span>Next observation, the hits and swings. What exactly is this? I am assuming that hits are the number of spells and combat arts that have landed on targets? And that swings are the number of overall attempted? If that is true then compare the number done by the conjuror to your own number. It is nearly 800 more landed hits. Dont you think that if they land that many more hits that they would have given out more damage? If you look at the ext damage it is nearly the same. So, despite the ranger hitting significantly less they still did a significant amount of damage.</span><div></div>

Magiocracy

03-21-2006, 01:15 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, calling people liars and shouting 'SCREW YOU' are fine examples of reason and mature debate....errrr.not. I haven't seen any logic (or hard numbers) in either of your posts, but hey, please resume the schoolyard namecalling that you Summoners seem so fond of.</p><p>As Fennir said, all that's been on display from Summoners here are excuses, evasions and half-truths.</p><p>In any case these pulled changes give a clear indication as to how the devs are thinking - and unless these changes were completely random, it doesn't appear that they're thinking that Summoner dps is fine where it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>- Numbers? where's yours?.... Oh you don't have any....- Maturity... yeah lying, half-truths, exageration... all signs of people still in high school using high school logic.- Yes... <b>PULLED</b> changes... and BTW, not only were they pulled, but they were pulled with the expressed statement that they had NO INTENTION OF RE-APPLYING THEM AT ANY POINT... or maybe you missed that part.To me that means they applied changes based on whining half accurate morons... then they did more internal testing and realized that the morons were wrong and trashed the whole thing!More in line with my true feelings is that they realized the truth was not as trivial as people like you make it out to be. I do expect a change at some point, but as I've saif before I don't expect summoners to be second class citizens to the "supposed" T1 classes. Summoners ARE supposed to be a damage classs, and some of you be sorely disapointed to find out that this is actually by design and not a bug.<hr></blockquote><p>As for numbers, what I've posted in what I've seen happen consistently as I don't have any specific parses to hand. If you want a specific example have a look here <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=17367&page=3">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=17367&page=3</a> , you'll see on the Final Warden parse the top Warlock doing 942 and the Necro plus pet doing 1334 (the pet <i>on its own</i> does over 700 dps). But if you're so concerned about data why don't you post your own ? I note however that you don't seem to be contesting the fact that 1200+ on Single targets from Necros and 1000+ on AE from Conjurors is in fact accurate (on non-trash mobs) - your argument seems to be that those numbers are what they should be.</p><p>I also note that you have conveniently ignored the last parse Fennir posted, unlike KBern who managed some sort of attempt to explain it away, like a good fundamentalist you've simply ignored the data that contradicts your view.</p><p>As for the pulled changes, here's what Blackguard actually said about the changes...</p><p><font color="#cc0033">At this time, those changes aren't ever going live, <font size="5">at least not in the way that they were mentioned in the update notes</font>. I'm not sure what Lockeye is planning on changing, if anything, in upcoming updates at this point.</font></p><p>Now if you use your much vaunted sense of 'logic' you'd clearly see the implication here that while these specific changes may not happen they are clearly thinking about doing something along those lines.</p><p>But there's little point in continuing this, I've played a Warlock since before LU13 when we were the overwhelmingly overpowered class and I remember back then there were Warlocks who'd insist that there was nothing wrong with us having unbreakable roots and dps that was ridiculously higher than anyone elses. Similarly with post LU13 Rangers there was no shortage of them who seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with their dps either, and here we are now with Summoners in exactly the same situation, There are always people who play clearly overpowered classes that don't want to loose their priveliged position and therefore revert to insult laden vitriol in an attempt to keep things the way they are. </p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 AM</span></p>

KBern

03-21-2006, 06:00 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, calling people liars and shouting 'SCREW YOU' are fine examples of reason and mature debate....errrr.not. I haven't seen any logic (or hard numbers) in either of your posts, but hey, please resume the schoolyard namecalling that you Summoners seem so fond of.</p><p>As Fennir said, all that's been on display from Summoners here are excuses, evasions and half-truths.</p><p>In any case these pulled changes give a clear indication as to how the devs are thinking - and unless these changes were completely random, it doesn't appear that they're thinking that Summoner dps is fine where it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I call you liars just the same as you do to me. I try to post logic and have a debate but it degenerated into "yeah quit smokescreening".</p><p>Well as I said, I respond in kind. You can read my posts and see I do not attack everyone or troll. Just little nerf herders who wont even admit what they can do.</p><p>If one of you nerf herders would actually be honest of your capabilities, you may garner more respect....but you are not, so you dont.</p>

KBern

03-21-2006, 06:12 PM

<div></div><div></div><p>And read this for the reading and memory impaired...you seem to gloss over it when I say it and call it garabge but here it is from the horses mouth.</p><p>Deal with it, you are wrong, and until they decide otherwise, nothing this whining will do.</p><p>If you really think they need any of your input to "assist" them in balancing classes, you are even more misguided than I thought.</p><p></p><hr>Quote from Moorgard<div>The <font size="5">relative</font> <font size="4">damage rankings</font> posted a while back were <font size="4">clearly stated not to be absolutes</font>. <font size="5">They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.</font></div><div> </div><div><font size="4">To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.</font></div><div><font size="4"></font> </div><div><font size="5">We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.</font></div><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<font size="4">Game Designer, EverQuest II</font></p><hr><p> </p><p>Now let it soak in...good....got it?</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:16 AM</span></p>

Racmo

03-21-2006, 07:42 PM

<div></div><p>Necros/Conjurors consistently out dps me as a ranger. I'm very well equipped with adept IIIs and masters on my dmg spells. This is in regular grinding xp groups.</p><p> </p><p>Kbern,</p><p> You can tell me to lrn2play or whatever. A nerf is coming your way. Deal with it or not...I had to. It is a problem, they will not buff other classes above summoners, so a nerf will be applied. If they want to change their "tier" structure and say that summoners are Teir 1, that's fine to, but even then I believe that they will be adjusted to within tier 1 not above. I parsed last nights grind and the necro was on top 80% of the time with two wizzies and a lock in the group.</p><p> </p><p>I wish you good luck in dealing with the changes that are coming your way, it's brutal, but adapt and work with it.</p><p> </p><p>Tobi</p><p>54 Ranger</p>

KBern

03-21-2006, 07:53 PM

<div></div><p>If it comes, I will deal with it like an adult and not try to bring other classes down with me.</p><p>I wouldnt be playing this game if I didnt enjoy it. I trust the devs to understand their own vision and how to interpret the stats THEY have.</p><p>What gets me is the people who are unhappy with thier class but want other classes nerfed also.</p><p>I trust the experts who made this game to do the right thing, and when that times comes, if it comes, what else can I do but deal with it.</p><p>That is what makes people different, how you react and deal with certain adversitites. Some move on, some try to bring others down with them.</p>

ChaosUndivided

03-21-2006, 08:04 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>And read this for the reading and memory impaired...you seem to gloss over it when I say it and call it garabge but here it is from the horses mouth.</p><p>Deal with it, you are wrong, and until they decide otherwise, nothing this whining will do.</p><p>If you really think they need any of your input to "assist" them in balancing classes, you are even more misguided than I thought.</p><p></p><hr>Quote from Moorgard<div>The <font size="5">relative</font> <font size="4">damage rankings</font> posted a while back were <font size="4">clearly stated not to be absolutes</font>. <font size="5">They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.</font></div><div> </div><div><font size="4">To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. <font color="#ff6600">The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.</font></font></div><div><font size="4"></font> </div><div><font size="5">We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.</font></div><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<font size="4">Game Designer, EverQuest II</font></p><hr><p> </p><p>Now let it soak in...good....got it?</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Summoner's win in the long haul, not the short haul. It should be the other way around.</p><p>Summoner's win in almost every single encounter.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:05 AM</span></p>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 08:10 PM

<div></div>It amazes me how much Rangers complain. Good god i hope its not a character trait of the ranger type of personality. Rangers are one class out of many, but i swear i see more wine posts from them than other classes combined?

ChaosUndivided

03-21-2006, 08:21 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div></div>It amazes me how much Rangers complain. Good god i hope its not a character trait of the ranger type of personality. Rangers are one class out of many, but i swear i see more wine posts from them than other classes combined?<hr></blockquote><p>Shrug, I was one of the proponents of getting overpowered rangers brought down in the 1st place.</p><p>I just find it funny that the summoners try to smoke screen and deny their overpowered dps.</p>

Fennir

03-21-2006, 08:22 PM

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span>Well, I am not going to defend a particular parse and say it is valid or invalid. There are somethings about this that I find interesting though.The first is that you took a 4 man group into Vaults with the main tank being a monk! This zone is extremely crazy and is not conned to the appropriate level. I am suprised that you were able to get through it within the time you indicate. Congrats on that. Monks are not particularly good as main tanks due to their few taunts to keep aggro. Not only that you say that the conjuror was afk for a bit. So, you were doing it with a 3 man group for awhile. <span>:smileysurprised:</span></span><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote><span><span>No. I copied and pasted the top part of the parse. There was a mystic in our group as well.</span></span><span><span></span></span></span><span><span><span></span></span><span><span></span></span><blockquote><span></span><hr width="100%" size="2"><span>Next observation, the hits and swings. What exactly is this? I am assuming that hits are the number of spells and combat arts that have landed on targets? And that swings are the number of overall attempted? If that is true then compare the number done by the conjuror to your own number. It is nearly 800 more landed hits. Dont you think that if they land that many more hits that they would have given out more damage? If you look at the ext damage it is nearly the same. So, despite the ranger hitting significantly less they still did a significant amount of damage.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Uh, if one swing does 1 point of damage, and another swing does 3000 points of damage, they're still both counted as 'one swing.' How many times we attempt or land an attack on a mob means nothing. The results from those swings are what is important. His 'swings' are also a total count of all the melee attacks his pet used plus all of the spells he casted. There are many reasons why he has more swings than I do, but none of that should affect the final DPS numbers, if I am a T1 DPS class.The number of swings doesn't tell you anything except that we were both there for 99% of the parse time. The DPS will tell you that over time, a T2 DPS class working half as hard as as a T1 DPS class (considering over half his DPS came from his pet which he does not have to control beyond ATTACK) did the same amount of damage.That's what's broken.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p>

Draughi

03-21-2006, 09:02 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div></div><font color="#ff3300">It amazes me how much Rangers complain</font>. <font color="#ffff33">Good god i hope its not a character trait of the ranger type of personality.</font> <font color="#ccff00"><font color="#66cc00">Rangers are one class out of many, but i swear i see more wine posts from them than other classes combined?</font></font><hr></blockquote><div><font color="#ff3300">It amazes me how much people complain about rangers complaining.</font> </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Complaining is our only class defining skill at the moment. I can't kill the mob with bow/arrows, skills, or even melee weapons, so I complain it to death.</font> </div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">You shouldn't swear on the forums. In fact, you shouldn't swear....ever.</font></div>

KBern

03-21-2006, 09:04 PM

<div></div><p>...</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:05 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:05 AM</span></p>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 10:36 PM

<div><div>I posted this in the necro forums too, but thought it may be helpful here as well.</div><div> </div><div>If Necros were where they wanted us in damage a few months back then what would have changed now except people wining? Here is a quote from Lockeye</div><div> </div><div><div><font color="#ffff00">Included in an update soon for the test server for LU16 includes 2 upgrades in DoT spell damage for the Necromancer's 'Withering Affliction' and 'Blight' spell lines.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">The reason for the reduction in Lich damage was evident because in how its proc benefit alone can often outdamage spells like Ice Comet and Blazing Presence in its overall damage per second. <strong>Necromancers post 50 are close to where we wanted them to be overall</strong>, but they were doing too much damage through one spell (with power regeneration benefits that don't follow the cap rules). More of their damage was weighted towards a single spell, so what about all of those Necromancer's that aren't level 50 yet? The pre to post level 50 game shouldn't be such an imbalance within a class, and looking at the change to Lich justified improving other spell lines the Necromancer has throughout their adventuring that will help them level, including post 50.</font></div><p><font color="#ffff00"></font></p><div><font color="#ffff00">===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer</font></div></div></div>

Foruden

03-21-2006, 10:40 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span></span><span>Uh, if one swing does 1 point of damage, and another swing does 3000 points of damage, they're still both counted as 'one swing.' How many times we attempt or land an attack on a mob means nothing. The results from those swings are what is important. His 'swings' are also a total count of all the melee attacks his pet used plus all of the spells he casted. There are many reasons why he has more swings than I do, but none of that should affect the final DPS numbers, if I am a T1 DPS class.The number of swings doesn't tell you anything except that we were both there for 99% of the parse time. The DPS will tell you that over time, a <font size="5"><b>T2 DPS class working half as hard</b></font> as as a T1 DPS class (considering over half his DPS came from his pet which he does not have to control beyond ATTACK) did the same amount of damage.That's what's broken.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote (earlier in thread with DPS parse):<div></div>Here's a real life parse of Vaults of El'Arad. I removed broken encounters. There are a couple fights in there where the conjuror was AFK. <font size="5"><b>I was going all out, and so was the conj (he got agro and died a lot)</b></font>.<hr></blockquote></span>These two statements clash with each other. So, which was it? Did the conjuror put in very little effort and soar past you in DPS? Or did he put in a lot of effort and pay the price (death) for all that effort he put in. The fact that he died so much is a sign that he should have been lower in the parse. Doing so much damage to pull agro is a stupid way to get parse data.Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be brought down some. All I'm saying is that this parse can't be that accurate if he was doing so much damage to pull agro off the tank and die a lot. I also notice you didn't say that you were pulling as much agro as him and yet you're right beside him.</div>

Fennir

03-21-2006, 10:54 PM

I'm saying that when I'm in DPS mode and when he's in DPS mode, I'm working a lot harder. He sends his pet into melee, stands in one spot, and cast spells. I am moving all over the place for positional requirements, stealthing for stealth attacks, and using every single attack on my hotbar to maximize my DPS. I have discussed this with him many times and he does not argue with my sentiment.My point is that for him to put out the same DPS as me requires less effort on his part. He also managed to pull agro and die a lot more often than me AND go AFK more than me, and STILL better my overall DPS numbers. What other factors do you need to know? We both have Adept3 or better spells and he is two levels lower than me. His proc buff was on ME, also.Trying to find minute contradictions in my posts isn't going to grant you an escape from my point, which is pretty obvious to see, whether you like it or not.<div></div>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 10:59 PM

<div></div><div>If you dont like that playstyle then dont play a scout. Go play a wizard then...</div>

Foruden

03-21-2006, 11:04 PM

<div></div>Sorry that you feel that I was trying to nitpick, but I honestly saw a difference between those two posts. Now I understand your full point.So, with those stats then I would likely agree that Summoner's DPS pets should probably be brought down a notch. Just please don't nerf our tank pets.Also, you never addressed my other question as to why he was doing SO MUCH damage that he was pulling agro off of the tank? How is that considered beneficial to the group by any means? When he does that he's messing up your positioning and skewing the results even worse.<div></div>Edited to remove last line, read a bit more into your message than I thought was there, sorry.<p>Message Edited by Foruden on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:11 AM</span></p>

Fennir

03-21-2006, 11:06 PM

Who said I don't like the playstyle? I love it. Don't latch onto an insignificant portion of an argumentative example to ignore the big picture.This isn't about the playstyle. This is about DPS tiers that are out of whack.When rangers were overpowered, we were fixed (a little too hard, but that's being rectified). Now it's your turn.<div></div>

Fennir

03-21-2006, 11:12 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Foruden wrote:Also, you never addressed my other question as to why he was doing SO MUCH damage that he was pulling agro off of the tank? How is that considered beneficial to the group by any means? When he does that he's messing up your positioning and skewing the results even worse.<div></div>Btw, you shouldn't be so eager to jump on my case when I'm just trying to get clarity.<hr></blockquote>I have a self-buff that reduces my agro by 41% (at master). I also have two separate CAs that reduce hate. Summoners reduce hate by sharing their DPS output with their pets. The pet routinely pulls agro all by itself (the conj often waits to send him in to try and avoid this, but it's not always possible). When the pet eventually dies, all the agro is transferred directly to the summoner.I'm pretty adept at moving around and playing with my guildies, so pulling agro, dying etc. doesn't mess up my DPS very much. Most of the time, the pet will pull agro and we'll kill the mob before it can kill the pet, and no harm is done. To be honest, our conj doesn't necessarily enjoy the fact that he cant control his pets agro very well (beyond not letting it attack or not buffing it).Not trying to jump on you, just been used to a lot of misdirected nitpicking in attempts to avoid my points, which I've been trying to make very clear. I am not one to ask for nerfs nor do I enjoy seeing another class nerfed. When rangers were overpowered I freely admitted it and attempted to provide solutions to fix us down before the nerfs and solutions to fix us up after the nerfs. But it bugs me when I see a lot of what some rangers were pulling pre-LU#20: "what? overpowered? only when the stars are aligned!! trust me!!"</span></div>

MilkToa

03-21-2006, 11:16 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div><div>I posted this in the necro forums too, but thought it may be helpful here as well.</div><div> </div><div>If Necros were where they wanted us in damage a few months back then what would have changed now except people wining? Here is a quote from Lockeye</div><div> </div><div><div><font color="#ffff00">Included in an update soon for the test server for LU16 includes 2 upgrades in DoT spell damage for the Necromancer's 'Withering Affliction' and 'Blight' spell lines.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">The reason for the reduction in Lich damage was evident because in how its proc benefit alone can often outdamage spells like Ice Comet and Blazing Presence in its overall damage per second. <strong>Necromancers post 50 are close to where we wanted them to be overall</strong>, but they were doing too much damage through one spell (with power regeneration benefits that don't follow the cap rules). More of their damage was weighted towards a single spell, so what about all of those Necromancer's that aren't level 50 yet? The pre to post level 50 game shouldn't be such an imbalance within a class, and looking at the change to Lich justified improving other spell lines the Necromancer has throughout their adventuring that will help them level, including post 50.</font></div><p><font color="#ffff00"></font></p><div><font color="#ffff00">===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer</font></div></div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Maybe SOE was wrong. My guess is SOE would have told you rangers were where they wanted them when they shipped PoF too.</p><p> </p>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 11:19 PM

<div>Are you a crack head? Most people in this game have alts, thus all the additional character slots. My main is an SK. I just want to see Rangers like you to stop crying and go back to your little hut in the forest and make me my deer pot pie..</div>

ShadowDragon32

03-21-2006, 11:21 PM

<div>Good point miltoast......</div>

KBern

03-22-2006, 12:06 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Foruden wrote:Also, you never addressed my other question as to why he was doing SO MUCH damage that he was pulling agro off of the tank? How is that considered beneficial to the group by any means? When he does that he's messing up your positioning and skewing the results even worse.<div></div>Btw, you shouldn't be so eager to jump on my case when I'm just trying to get clarity.<hr></blockquote>I have a self-buff that reduces my agro by 41% (at master). I also have two separate CAs that reduce hate. Summoners reduce hate by sharing their DPS output with their pets. The pet routinely pulls agro all by itself (the conj often waits to send him in to try and avoid this, but it's not always possible). When the pet eventually dies, all the agro is transferred directly to the summoner.I'm pretty adept at moving around and playing with my guildies, so pulling agro, dying etc. doesn't mess up my DPS very much. Most of the time, the pet will pull agro and we'll kill the mob before it can kill the pet, and no harm is done. To be honest, our conj doesn't necessarily enjoy the fact that he cant control his pets agro very well (beyond not letting it attack or not buffing it).Not trying to jump on you, just been used to a lot of misdirected nitpicking in attempts to avoid my points, which I've been trying to make very clear. I am not one to ask for nerfs nor do I enjoy seeing another class nerfed. When rangers were overpowered I freely admitted it and attempted to provide solutions to fix us down before the nerfs and solutions to fix us up after the nerfs. But it bugs me when I see a lot of what some rangers were pulling pre-LU#20: "what? overpowered? only when the stars are aligned!! trust me!!"</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Fennir you need to learn two things.</p><p>One, conjurers and necros are not the same, so stop making that mistake.</p><p>two, you are not a dev nor understand how the game is designed or understand how to read parses...so stop trying....and leave it to the experts.</p><p>Which is not me, nor you.</p><p>If and when they decide to nerf necros or conjurers it will be off of their information, not misguided parses by arm chair designers.</p><p>Rangers were the ones soloing Epics pre DOF, and doing some ridiculous things after...dont try to compare the two....you are not qualified to make that judgement.</p>

Fennir

03-22-2006, 12:17 AM

"necros and conjs aren't exactly the same big secret i know and this discussion shouldn't be happening bcuz i dont like it!!"<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

AbsentmindedMage

03-22-2006, 12:22 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span></span><span><blockquote><span></span></blockquote>Uh, if one swing does 1 point of damage, and another swing does 3000 points of damage, they're still both counted as 'one swing.' How many times we attempt or land an attack on a mob means nothing. The results from those swings are what is important. His 'swings' are also a total count of all the melee attacks his pet used plus all of the spells he casted. There are many reasons why he has more swings than I do, but none of that should affect the final DPS numbers, if I am a T1 DPS class.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><span>That was in fact my point; however, it seems you are stating it but not understanding it. It is clear in the data that you hit the mobs significantly less. Nearly 800 times less. HOWEVER, despite hitting it less you still manage to be only a little bit away from him. Show me a parse where you both make the same number of hits. I am sure in such a scenerio you will be much much higher than him in terms of damage. The fact that you hit it less and still manage to be so high in the dps chart indicate that your hits were substantially stronger.I would be interested in seeing all the numbers including the mystic you left out.Btw being a T1 dps class has never ensured being number one in every encounter and in every level range. Also, It is situational based. If you show me a parse, where each of those people in your group go all out and do the SAME number of hits in a single group encounter or on a solo encounter separately. I am almost certain it will line up just like the dps chart.</span><div></div>

ChaosUndivided

03-22-2006, 12:30 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span></span><span><blockquote><span></span></blockquote>Uh, if one swing does 1 point of damage, and another swing does 3000 points of damage, they're still both counted as 'one swing.' How many times we attempt or land an attack on a mob means nothing. The results from those swings are what is important. His 'swings' are also a total count of all the melee attacks his pet used plus all of the spells he casted. There are many reasons why he has more swings than I do, but none of that should affect the final DPS numbers, if I am a T1 DPS class.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><span>That was in fact my point; however, it seems you are stating it but not understanding it. It is clear in the data that you hit the mobs significantly less. Nearly 800 times less. HOWEVER, despite hitting it less you still manage to be only a little bit away from him. Show me a parse where you both make the same number of hits. I am sure in such a scenerio you will be much much higher than him in terms of damage. The fact that you hit it less and still manage to be so high in the dps chart indicate that your hits were substantially stronger.I would be interested in seeing all the numbers including the mystic you left out.Btw being a T1 dps class has never ensured being number one in every encounter and in every level range. Also, It is situational based. If you show me a parse, where each of those people in your group go all out and do the SAME number of hits in a single group encounter or on a solo encounter separately. I am almost certain it will line up just like the dps chart.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Mages don't have to deal with the type of "hit stopping" mob abilities (Block, Parry, Miss) as melee's do. Let's not play theoryquest here, you'll never get a situation like you describe simply because it does not happen.</p><p>Also, Summoner pet's hit orange mobs a lot easier than Player's do, as to why I'm not sure.</p><p> </p><p>The whole issue IS situational dps, in 90% of cases that matter, the Summoner Out Damages all the tier 1 DPS classes. SITUATIONALLY the tier 1's can out dps summoners. That's not how it should be. Instead Tier 1 DPS classes should be Out Damaging EVERYONE ELSE, MOST OF THE TIME! And situationally be out damaged by tier 2 and below classes. This is not the case.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:33 AM</span></p>

KBern

03-22-2006, 12:31 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:"necros and conjs aren't exactly the same big secret i know and this discussion shouldn't be happening bcuz i dont like it!!"<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Obviously you don't know or you wouldnt be interchanging the two as the same class.</p><p>There are very different DPS mechanics for a conj and a necro but I guess being a dev you know that already.</p><p>I post on these threads for the opposite reason mr. parsehound, because I have nothing to hide and know the devs are smart enough to use thier own information.</p><p>But let me know when they start asking your advice for interpreting it all, I am sure they need your help to do their jobs!</p>

Fennir

03-22-2006, 12:34 AM

Of course I'm understanding it. It just doesn't make any sense. # of hits or swings is an arbitrary statistic in DPS terms fighting mobs that con reasonably well, nor would it make any sense for classes to be balanced in terms of swings.Example: I'm sure other scouts take many, many, many more swings than I do over time, just because of the machanics of our class. I use a bow with a long delay in between long-cast CAs, they are using 1-2s delay DWs in between near insta-cast CAs. How would anyone even go about finding an over-time parse where our swings were close?And I understand full-well the sitautional basis of DPS. That's why I linked an over-time parse with broken encounters and such removed, because it gives a clearer picture. I have over-time parses of raids and other group zones that show the exact same thing. If it's situation, why am I routinely out-DPS'd in every situation? I am ready to admit that it's because I'm just a terrible player, but that's not gonna be my first conclusion.<div></div>

Magiocracy

03-22-2006, 12:35 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span></span><span> The fact that you hit it less and still manage to be so high in the dps chart indicate that your hits were substantially stronger.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It shows no such thing. I am a mage and spend 4 seconds casting a single spell that does 2000 damage, that's one swing and 2000 damage. If I am an Assassin say, and in that same four seconds use 4 CAs for a total of 2000 damage, that's 4 swings but still only 2000 damage. The final dps on both is the same.</p><p>Some classes do their dps with slow big swings, some to their dps with lots of smaller swings, therefore as Fennir correctly pointed out before the number of swings is ultimately irrelevant as long as both people are actively participating in the full fight (and if they're not you can spot the difference between DPS and extDPS).</p><p>Conjuror dps comes from two sources - the conjuror and their pet therefore you'd expect them (along with Necros) to have the highest number of swings since there's effectively two sources.</p>

Fennir

03-22-2006, 12:43 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Obviously you don't know or you wouldnt be interchanging the two as the same class.</div><hr></blockquote>I believe my statement above referring to summoners was "summoners reduce their agro by sharing it with their pets." Otherwise I was talking about our conjuror. Anyways, having been out-DPS'd by both conjurors and necros consistently in most situations since LU#20 (necros usually outDPS me by a bigger margin than conjs), I'm not sure what distinction I need to make. The good thing is that rangers are being fixed. This well help me, personally. The problem is that I'm currently usually just under wizards and keeping pace with warlocks in most situations, who are also getting their [Removed for Content] kicked by conjurors and necros alike.Not sure why you keep bringing up what the devs need. This is a forum provided for the players to discuss game mechanics. There was a lot of misdirection and exaggeration from both sides, so I decided to post some real data and make a few points. If you don't like it, don't cry that I shouldn't even be discussing the issue and that the devs aren't going to listen to me. That's not why I'm posting and it doesn't make your point for you.</span></div>

03-22-2006, 12:54 AM

<blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Logic has no place here in Fairy Tale Land Zald...you should know that by now.:smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh yes, calling people liars and shouting 'SCREW YOU' are fine examples of reason and mature debate....errrr.not. I haven't seen any logic (or hard numbers) in either of your posts, but hey, please resume the schoolyard namecalling that you Summoners seem so fond of.</p><p>As Fennir said, all that's been on display from Summoners here are excuses, evasions and half-truths.</p><p>In any case these pulled changes give a clear indication as to how the devs are thinking - and unless these changes were completely random, it doesn't appear that they're thinking that Summoner dps is fine where it is.</p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>- Numbers? where's yours?.... Oh you don't have any....- Maturity... yeah lying, half-truths, exageration... all signs of people still in high school using high school logic.- Yes... <b>PULLED</b> changes... and BTW, not only were they pulled, but they were pulled with the expressed statement that they had NO INTENTION OF RE-APPLYING THEM AT ANY POINT... or maybe you missed that part.To me that means they applied changes based on whining half accurate morons... then they did more internal testing and realized that the morons were wrong and trashed the whole thing!More in line with my true feelings is that they realized the truth was not as trivial as people like you make it out to be. I do expect a change at some point, but as I've saif before I don't expect summoners to be second class citizens to the "supposed" T1 classes. Summoners ARE supposed to be a damage classs, and some of you be sorely disapointed to find out that this is actually by design and not a bug.<hr></blockquote><p>As for numbers, what I've posted in what I've seen happen consistently as I don't have any specific parses to hand. If you want a specific example have a look here <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=17367&page=3">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=17367&page=3</a> , you'll see on the Final Warden parse the top Warlock doing 942 and the Necro plus pet doing 1334 (the pet <i>on its own</i> does over 700 dps). But if you're so concerned about data why don't you post your own ? I note however that you don't seem to be contesting the fact that 1200+ on Single targets from Necros and 1000+ on AE from Conjurors is in fact accurate (on non-trash mobs) - your argument seems to be that those numbers are what they should be.</p><p>I also note that you have conveniently ignored the last parse Fennir posted, unlike KBern who managed some sort of attempt to explain it away, like a good fundamentalist you've simply ignored the data that contradicts your view.</p><p>As for the pulled changes, here's what Blackguard actually said about the changes...</p><p><font color="#cc0033">At this time, those changes aren't ever going live, <font size="5">at least not in the way that they were mentioned in the update notes</font>. I'm not sure what Lockeye is planning on changing, if anything, in upcoming updates at this point.</font></p><p>Now if you use your much vaunted sense of 'logic' you'd clearly see the implication here that while these specific changes may not happen they are clearly thinking about doing something along those lines.</p><p>But there's little point in continuing this, I've played a Warlock since before LU13 when we were the overwhelmingly overpowered class and I remember back then there were Warlocks who'd insist that there was nothing wrong with us having unbreakable roots and dps that was ridiculously higher than anyone elses. Similarly with post LU13 Rangers there was no shortage of them who seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with their dps either, and here we are now with Summoners in exactly the same situation, There are always people who play clearly overpowered classes that don't want to loose their priveliged position and therefore revert to insult laden vitriol in an attempt to keep things the way they are. </p><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ahhhhh... ok I understand.. you're just ignorant.No, I see your data... its says nothing. You bring a bunch of raid data... I concede that summoners ARE SUPPOSED to out DPS you in raids... But hey bring all the data you want to prove something that no one is contesting.And WOW you got some way of interpreting things. See I interpret <b>"those changes aren't ever going live"</b> to mean that they changed their minds... True, he suggests that other changes may come in the future... But so what, EVERY class will get changed in the future.But here's the facts... <b>IF</b> SoE had been so sure summoners were overpowered and <b>IF</b> the solution had been as trivial as you seem to make it out to be... THESE CHANGES WOULD HAVE GONE LIVE! Don't agree, then you're an idiot, cuz that IS how SoE has ALWAYS run this game. There is NO WAY they'd have gone back on those changes had they agreed with your base assessment of how the classes are working.Will summoners get tweeked? Yes... but your basic beleif that summoners are not supposed to be a T1 damage class in these raid situations won't be supported when they do it.

KBern

03-22-2006, 01:04 AM

<div></div><p>You are right, this is a place to discuss.</p><p>What is getting old is people posting their interpretations of parses on here as fact even though it goes against even what the designers of the game has said.</p><p>People bring up the word overpowered, and what does that mean? Are necro and conj really doing things that other classes cannot? I think you know as well as I do the answer is no. Whatever you seen a necro of conj soloing, I am sure I can name at least 3 other classes that can do the same.</p><p>We do have nice utility and great DPS, so that is wrong? The only people who I see saying that is other DPS classes when they do not parse up to us.</p><p>I dont see people complainging about beserkers and look where they are on the parses. Go parse a swashbuckler, and see where they are on the parses.</p><p>Are we doing more damage than what some people expected on raids? Yes we are.</p><p>But it is only up for the people who made this game to say whether that is overpowered, or where we should be.</p><p>Posts like yours where you try to post numbers and try to use that as valid point to prove something are misguided at best. The amazing thing is how selective these parses are. I have seen parses in game, and there are many classes in many situation who do more damage than either a conj or necro. But those are never shown by those classes...of course not, that would break the Myth that conj/necors are the 100% always best DPS that is rampant on these boards.</p><p>That is the only point I am making.</p><p>That one number means nothing, but if you want to try to interpret that to mean we are overpowered, by all means do so.</p><p> </p>

Gorhauth

03-22-2006, 01:11 AM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div></div><div><span></span><span>Uh, if one swing does 1 point of damage, and another swing does 3000 points of damage, they're still both counted as 'one swing.' How many times we attempt or land an attack on a mob means nothing. The results from those swings are what is important. His 'swings' are also a total count of all the melee attacks his pet used plus all of the spells he casted. <font color="#ffff00">There are many reasons why he has more swings than I do, but none of that should affect the final DPS numbers, if I am a T1 DPS class.</font>The number of swings doesn't tell you anything except that we were both there for 99% of the parse time. The DPS will tell you that over time, a T2 DPS class working half as hard as as a T1 DPS class (considering over half his DPS came from his pet which he does not have to control beyond ATTACK) did the same amount of damage.That's what's broken.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Does that highlighted statement mean that you think you should be Tier 1 DPS (higher than the people you are grouped with) regardless of the number of hits? If you make 1.0 hits, and the other person makes 1.1 hits, you should do more damage than them? There is a point where the two curves meet (assuming it is done correctly) when a lot of little hits will pass a few bigger hits.What your numbers show is that the conj has more than 10% (10.109% based on your figures) more hits than you. I'm guessing those were his DOTs ticking as well as his AEs, but no way of knowing that with the data you posted.Your numbers also show that he only outdamaged you by 40942. His 575 more hits averaged a whopping 71.20348 points of damage to make that discrepancy. Not a significant number.Your average damage per hit was 343.8667 while his was 318.8338. You would have only needed 120 more hits to pass him in damage.All that means is that the reason he outdamaged you was because he had more swings, thus more hits. The real issue is why did he have so many swings? Was it because of all the DOTs he had on the mobs, his AEs, his pet's AEs? Without knowing why, it is hard to say (especially since we can't tell how long either of you were afk).Data is really just a bunch of numbers. It is up to the analyst to convert that data into information. It is up to the people who use that information to learn to understand it and figure out what it is really saying.The biggest question is... will this matter at all tomorrow when a bunch of your CAs and autoattack damage are increased?</span></div>

Fennir

03-22-2006, 01:19 AM

<div></div>I've already explained why hits are meaningless in the grand scheme.I could find many ways to maximize my # of hits on a mob. All it would do is decrease my DPS.DPS tiers, to me, means that, over time, predators and sorcerers should see similar numbers, rogues and summoners should see similar numbers generally below that of T1, and so on. I agree that a crappy predator should be out-DPS'd by a well-played summoner. I disagree that nearly every summoner should be able to kill every T1 DPS class in almost every situation.edit: and no, it won't matter when I'm boosted. I'm not the only T1 DPS class affected by this. I am currently even with most warlocks and only slightly behind well played wizards.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:21 PM</span></p>

03-22-2006, 03:21 AM

<blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div></div>I've already explained why hits are meaningless in the grand scheme.I could find many ways to maximize my # of hits on a mob. All it would do is decrease my DPS.DPS tiers, to me, means that, over time, predators and sorcerers should see similar numbers, rogues and summoners should see similar numbers generally below that of T1, and so on. I agree that a crappy predator should be out-DPS'd by a well-played summoner. I disagree that nearly every summoner should be able to kill every T1 DPS class in almost every situation.edit: and no, it won't matter when I'm boosted. I'm not the only T1 DPS class affected by this. I am currently even with most warlocks and only slightly behind well played wizards.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:21 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, its obvious this is YOUR impression of how things should work. But BG and MG and Lockeye have all made it clear that the DPS tiers were NEVER meant to be the end all be all. Not every summoner can out DPS every "T1" class in every situation. Thats a flat out lie. Any summoner will get OWNED in any fight that goesn't go beyond a 10-20 seconds, it's only after that initial period of times that summoner DoTs and the single DD spell that each gets, can make up the difference. I don't think the vast majority of encounters in the game should be so trivially stepped over.BTW, swings do matter... over the course of that long a period of time, I could do a significant amount of damage with a dagger that procced... or any of the many wearable items that procced for added damage on spell or melee hits. That small a difference isn't difficult to get or loose based on non class related factors.

Crychtonn

03-22-2006, 05:33 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>Rangers were the ones soloing Epics pre DOF, and doing some ridiculous things after...dont try to compare the two....you are not qualified to make that judgement.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Been doing my best to stay away from these threads as much as possible but this comment is just stupid. I'd just love to hear what Epics rangers were soloing before DoF came out. Rangers were one of the most [Removed for Content] classes in the game prior to DoF. On the other hand I do remember raids where our guild conjurors tank pet would tank x4 raid mobs.</p><p>DoF turned the bumbling stumbling Clark Kent rangers into Superman. Able to do amazing things. Ranger could even solo Epics (as long as they were the fake kind). Fake Epics for those that don't know were linked heroic mobs that were vulnerable to root, stuns, mezz ect. Other classes (including conjurors don't know about necro's) could all kill the same fake Epics solo. Anyone crazy enough to try and solo a true Epic with all it's immunties was in for a quick death.</p><p>The only differences between rangers and the other classes that could kill these mobs is they didn't get nerf'd back into Clark Kent and can still do it lol. Technically now they can't say they can kill Epics since they retagged these mobs as heroic. But they are the same mobs as before. Rangers pre-nerf could also do this much faster then the other classes. Maybe if we'd learned to kill things slower we wouldn't have been hit with the nerf bat. It's not what you can kill but how fast you can kill it that seems to matter.</p><p>Again, what were these Epics rangers could kill before the combat revamp with DoF. I'm dieing to hear the answer.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

ShadowDragon32

03-22-2006, 05:34 AM

<div></div>I actually think there is probably a slight step in the DPS tree. IMO you as a ranger shouldn's be doing the same DPS as Wizards and Locks who wear cloth and have virtually no utility.

Crychtonn

03-22-2006, 07:35 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div></div>I actually think there is probably a slight step in the DPS tree. IMO you as a ranger shouldn's be doing the same DPS as Wizards and Locks who wear cloth and have virtually no utility.<hr></blockquote><p>Sorcers and predators have very similar utility. Sorcer with group buffs and predator with their mob debuffs. Both are out done by true utility classes.</p><p>Your cloth armor is offset by your roots and stuns. These can if used intelligently provide more protection then what chain armor provides a predator.</p><p> </p>

armus5

03-22-2006, 10:12 AM

<div></div>Devs, would you plz lock this thread. I've seen far less rants locked on with other forums and quite frankly I'm tired of hearing about this one. People can't get along as long as they percieve an imbalance and it's time for an end. This is going no where.

AbsentmindedMage

03-22-2006, 11:49 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<p>Mages don't have to deal with the type of "hit stopping" mob abilities (Block, Parry, Miss) as melee's do. Let's not play theoryquest here, you'll never get a situation like you describe simply because it does not happen.</p><hr></blockquote>Of course, they can get a situation like I described under ideal testing conditions. I am sure a game designer can test and create such situations. As everyone has said, we are not designers and we do not have the tools to properly test.As for your comment about summoners somehow hitting orange mobs more easily than other classes, I call BS on that. First off, pets have no mitigation against an orange creature. So, it might be true(i havent seen this though) that the pet for some reason has an easier time hitting it but at the same time the creature has a much easier time hitting the pet. No, summoner is going to use a dps pet against an orange con and using the tank pet is more than challenging. All you have is your warped perceptions of a few parses and your vile hate for them fixing a BUG that has reduced the damage output of your class (as well as others since rangers were not the only one affected).</span><div></div>

uzhiel feathered serpe

03-22-2006, 02:43 PM

<div>stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing forums...sigh...lost my post.</div><div> </div><div>What I was trying to say is that Tier 1 DPS classes are strictly DPS, little utility. Summoners currently have much more utility and same DPS. This is the issue. This needs to be adjusted. Either summoer DPS is brought down to balance utility or Tier 1 DPS is brought up to compensate for lack of utility.</div><div> </div><div>Anyone that says summoners dont have MUCH more utility that tier 1 classes needs to stop deluding themselves. A simple spell by spell comparison suffices.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, its not just a few parses..Its pretty consistent. Even to the point that mnay summoners acknowledge that they are overpowered.</div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:47 AM</span></p>

KBern

03-22-2006, 06:24 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>Rangers were the ones soloing Epics pre DOF, and doing some ridiculous things after...dont try to compare the two....you are not qualified to make that judgement.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Been doing my best to stay away from these threads as much as possible but this comment is just stupid. I'd just love to hear what Epics rangers were soloing before DoF came out. Rangers were one of the most [Removed for Content] classes in the game prior to DoF. On the other hand I do remember raids where our guild conjurors tank pet would tank x4 raid mobs.</p><p>DoF turned the bumbling stumbling Clark Kent rangers into Superman. Able to do amazing things. Ranger could even solo Epics (as long as they were the fake kind). Fake Epics for those that don't know were linked heroic mobs that were vulnerable to root, stuns, mezz ect. Other classes (including conjurors don't know about necro's) could all kill the same fake Epics solo. Anyone crazy enough to try and solo a true Epic with all it's immunties was in for a quick death.</p><p>The only differences between rangers and the other classes that could kill these mobs is they didn't get nerf'd back into Clark Kent and can still do it lol. Technically now they can't say they can kill Epics since they retagged these mobs as heroic. But they are the same mobs as before. Rangers pre-nerf could also do this much faster then the other classes. Maybe if we'd learned to kill things slower we wouldn't have been hit with the nerf bat. It's not what you can kill but how fast you can kill it that seems to matter.</p><p>Again, what were these Epics rangers could kill before the combat revamp with DoF. I'm dieing to hear the answer.</p><p> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I dont make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up to make it up.</p><p>Leilania, ranger on Guk, in my guild, was constantly soloing an epic x2 in Maiden's Gulch I think it was. One of the instances in LS.</p><p>I want to say there were others since he would brag that you could point him to an epic and he would more than likely be able to solo it if the area was correct and he had time. This was right from his mouth and guildies who watched him.</p><p>This was back pre-DOF as I said, but it was being done. </p><p>I have no need to say something that is not true.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:28 AM</span></p>

Kaiser Sigma

03-22-2006, 06:39 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I dont make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up to make it up.</p><p>Leilania, ranger on Guk, in my guild, was constantly soloing an epic x2 in Maiden's Gulch I think it was. One of the instances in LS.</p><p>(...)</p><p>This was back pre-DOF as I said, but it was being done. </p><hr></blockquote><p>As someone who hates rangers, no offense meant but I just don't like being on the shadow of a class and at the same time seeing what a bunch of whiners they are when they got their first nerf (I am an assassin by the way), I can honestly say that statement is massive bs.</p><p>Either you have no clue what are you talking about or you are incredibly gullible. Even after DoF, rangers would never be able to solo an epic that came with three adds, one of them a healer and succeed at it. Let me say it again, your post is plain bs.</p>

KBern

03-22-2006, 06:42 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaiser Sigma wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I dont make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up to make it up.</p><p>Leilania, ranger on Guk, in my guild, was constantly soloing an epic x2 in Maiden's Gulch I think it was. One of the instances in LS.</p><p>(...)</p><p>This was back pre-DOF as I said, but it was being done. </p><hr></blockquote><p>As someone who hates rangers, no offense meant but I just don't like being on the shadow of a class and at the same time seeing what a bunch of whiners they are when they got their first nerf (I am an assassin by the way), I can honestly say that statement is massive bs.</p><p>Either you have no clue what are you talking about or you are incredibly gullible. Even after DoF, rangers would never be able to solo an epic that came with three adds, one of them a healer and succeed at it. Let me say it again, your post is plain bs.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I have a total clue from what I am talking about.</p><p>Could the guildie have been lying, along with his 2 roommates and a few officers over the few months he was doing this....sure its possible, but I doubt it.</p><p>Just because you cannot do it, or know someone who can, doesnt mean it cannot be done.</p><p>Take it as you will...believe it or not, it really has no bearing on the conversation other than speaking of why rangers were nerfed.</p><p>I have nothing to gain by lying about what a guildie did pre-DOF. Give me a break lol.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p>

uzhiel feathered serpe

03-22-2006, 06:46 PM

<div></div><div>KBERN is correct, Sir...and you are quite wrong...Rangers did indeed solo some epic mobs and they did it by kiting. Pre-dof rangers could kite like no ones business. Granted it took forever, but it could be done. Warlocks also were soloing EPIC mobs. How do I know? because i saw a demonstration with my own little beady eyes and I believe there was a video clip of a warlock using bony grasp to solo iceberg and such.</div><div> </div><div>Bony grasp used to be unbreakable.</div><div> </div><div>Next time, check around.</div>

KBern

03-22-2006, 06:53 PM

<div></div>Thank you.

ChaosUndivided

03-22-2006, 07:58 PM

<div></div><p>So your using an example, from Pre-DoF, when rangers were completely [Removed for Content] and totally sucked, except for the ability to kill an epic mob after 45mins of kiting with a high amount of risk and then somehow using that to justify the overpoweredness of Summoners?</p><p>Did I get that all?</p><p> </p><p> </p>

JamesRay

03-22-2006, 08:32 PM

<div></div><p>Heck, pre-DOF I was able to solo epics with my *dirge* of all things.When kiting was a feasible option, it was just a matter of environment and situational tactics.Rangers complaining about conjurors seems a little odd to me, as they are totally different archetype lines. A warlock can drop loads and loads of damage in an AE situation, but the key is the situation.Saying something so outrageous as "conjurors do more damage than any tier1 in 90% of the situations that matter" assumes that what you believe "matters" is what every other single player would agree with. Given the number of posts on this thread, I doubt your opinion would go uncontested. So would the only fights that matter be the ones where there are tons of mobs in a group? Because that is where conjurors tend to rack up DPS...and that is also dependent on them being lvl 58 so they can EV, and whether or not they have the proper support group. And wow, 90%, where did you get that data from? Your personally biased experiences? Or some sort of 3rd party census?I'm not 100% sure what the purpose of this continual whine is...perhaps you should reroll a dirge, they are better known for their screaming and crying.In the end, I can't help but think of an old saying...if you aren't a part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Lets hear some detailed suggestions as to how we should nerf the conjuror, and some details as to how you would like these nerfs to be effective in the "situations that really matter."Nerf the scout pet so they don't do as much damage in groups? As it stands if they are tanking or grab aggro they don't last long, and require somebody else holding aggro.Nerf the tank pet so conjurors can't solo? Despite the fact that tank pets do much lower damage as a tradeoff? What would you nerf, their ability to mitigate damage, their low DPS to nonexistant?Nerf the caster pet so they don't do strong damage, even though they die in 1 shot as is? If the "situation" is the mob AE's, the conjuror won't be contributing much to that fight...much less than your ranger, ridiculously less.Take away pets? If so, then we'll need something to do damage with...oh wait, then we'd be wizards.Perhaps you just don't like that conjurors get EV...so as a result, you want to nerf all conjurors lvls 1-57 because of the 58 spell?Pets are to conjurors as weapons are to melee characters. If a conjuror drops serious plat or raids, getting a master pet, master buffs, and the pet does strong damage, so what? If a melee char drops serious plat or otherwise gets ahold of epic/legendary gear, and as a result, does strong damage, so what?Everything is so incredibly situational...conjuror screws up with aggro management, conjuror gets squished, and fast. Scouts usually have a lot of deaggro options available, and they will typically survive more than one round of hits to actually use them. My experience with conjurors vs my experience with scouts (both chars over 50) is they're like apples vs oranges.Perhaps we should just remove tiers all together, make it so everybody has 2 abilities, damage and heal. Everybody does exactly the same amount. Oh wait, then these same people would be back on the forums whining about how there is a lack in diversity of playing styles and no tactics at all.How much more damage should you be doing? Should this be true in every situation? If you are a sniper with a high powered rifle, should you expect to do as much "overall damage" as the guy with a hand grenade when you're looking into a small room with a half dozen opponents packed in it? Well...I guess you would say yes.</p>

KBern

03-22-2006, 08:45 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><p>So your using an example, from Pre-DoF, when rangers were completely [Removed for Content] and totally sucked, except for the ability to kill an epic mob after 45mins of kiting with a high amount of risk and then somehow using that to justify the overpoweredness of Summoners?</p><p>Did I get that all?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Nope, not at all, but keep trying.</p>

Sirlutt

03-22-2006, 08:49 PM

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaiser Sigma wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I dont make [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up to make it up.</p><p>Leilania, ranger on Guk, in my guild, was constantly soloing an epic x2 in Maiden's Gulch I think it was. One of the instances in LS.</p><p>(...)</p><p>This was back pre-DOF as I said, but it was being done. </p><hr></blockquote><p>As someone who hates rangers, no offense meant but I just don't like being on the shadow of a class and at the same time seeing what a bunch of whiners they are when they got their first nerf (I am an assassin by the way), I can honestly say that statement is massive bs.</p><p>Either you have no clue what are you talking about or you are incredibly gullible. Even after DoF, rangers would never be able to solo an epic that came with three adds, one of them a healer and succeed at it. Let me say it again, your post is plain bs.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I have a total clue from what I am talking about.</p><p>Could the guildie have been lying, along with his 2 roommates and a few officers over the few months he was doing this....sure its possible, but I doubt it.</p><p>Just because you cannot do it, or know someone who can, doesnt mean it cannot be done.</p><p>Take it as you will...believe it or not, it really has no bearing on the conversation other than speaking of why rangers were nerfed.</p><p>I have nothing to gain by lying about what a guildie did pre-DOF. Give me a break lol.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr>Pre DOF stuff had nothing to do with why the proc mechanics were changed, that all came to light with DOF and the post LU13 improvements to the Ranger class. specifically it was the Rangers offensive stance and its abilitiy to chain proc poison that drew the heat. Your little fantasy (and it *IS* a fantasy) has no bearing on anything being discussed here.I applaud those summoners (conj and necro alike) who stand up and admit their DPS is above where it should be. There were a great number of Rangers who agree theirs needed a reduction aswell.</blockquote></span></div>