Stop nerfing invis/stealth already!!!

[Dazzler_Twodir]

<div>Even more stuff is going to see through it in kos now????</div><div>Mobs already have a horrible stun and dot abilities as it is.</div><div> </div><div>My swashbuckler has already died more times in the last week up there than the last SIX MONTHS combined.</div>

[EtoilePirate]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:<div>Even more stuff is going to see through it in kos now????</div><div>Mobs already have a horrible stun and dot abilities as it is.</div><div> </div><div>My swashbuckler has already died more times in the last week up there than the last SIX MONTHS combined.</div><hr></blockquote>There are very, very few see-stealth mobs in the Tenebrous Tangle.  Or at least, have been.  I've not died from exploration on my Assassin except for the timnes I explored myself right off the edgs of something.  Barren Sky has a big handful of mobs that'll see you, but honestly even though I NEED to be in stealth to fight, even a little bit at all, I don't see the problem with them adding a few more see-stealth mobs to TT.That said, TU#21 broke most character logins so I can't tell you if it's too many or too few yet.</span></div>

[ke'la]

<div></div><div>With my Monk/carpet I never use my invis(such as it is) when Exploring, granted I have FD but even with my Illusionist in DoF I rarly used it as with a carpet I can usually out "run" the mobs and granted in KoS thats harder but most Islands have zones and such you can run to if you get into too much trouble.</div>

[Untruth]

<div></div>Stealth shouldn't even be considered a real ability anymore, when you put into account that the strong majority of mobs in the expansion zones see right through it. I mean, the only area in DoF it works in seems to be Sinking Sands, everywhere else there are scout mobs planted in the center of every group of enemies, that makes it virtually impossible to use stealth, with the exception of in-combat stealths. You could argue that there are a couple of camps in say, PoF that don't have mobs that will outright pop stealth, but thats just it - there are only a few.

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:<div>Even more stuff is going to see through it in kos now????</div><div>Mobs already have a horrible stun and dot abilities as it is.</div><div> </div><div>My swashbuckler has already died more times in the last week up there than the last SIX MONTHS combined.</div><hr></blockquote>Stuff in TT shouldn't be killing you for the most part, even if it does see invis - most of it is below level 60.For the stuff like bixies, stay away from there if they see invis, or bring a group.</span></div>

[Amise]

Hardly anything in TT sees stealth.  It's pretty much limited to named only which is not at all like the other two overland zones.   In Barren Sky and Bonemire there are a few select mob types that see through stealth and invis.I solo explored all three outdoor zones and didn't come across an unduly high number of mobs that could see me in any of them.   If you're paying attention you can easily avoid the few that do and if you can't avoid them then you suck it up and bring friends. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Adding a few see invis mobs in TT isn't a big deal.   It's still going to be easier to get around there than in the other two zones because the mobs are low level.<div></div>

[Magu]

They're changing it though, that's what Dazzler is complaining about.<div></div>

[Amise]

<div></div>Yeah I know.  Just mean that after the changes it's not gonna be any worse than the other two zones, cause at the moment virtually nothing sees invis in TT whereas there is plenty of see invis stuff in the other places.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:30 PM</span></p>

[Dazzler_Twodir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:<div>Even more stuff is going to see through it in kos now????</div><div>Mobs already have a horrible stun and dot abilities as it is.</div><div> </div><div>My swashbuckler has already died more times in the last week up there than the last SIX MONTHS combined.</div><hr></blockquote>Stuff in TT shouldn't be killing you for the most part, even if it does see invis - most of it is below level 60.For the stuff like bixies, stay away from there if they see invis, or bring a group.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Magus try running from something that sees you in that zone.</p><p>How many friends does it have?</p><p>If i get stunned while trying to run or evac those friends all gang up on me.</p>

[Magu]

Then don't get near it if it sees. You act like its hard to tab through nearby mobs and check for an aggro border.<div></div>

[DjTeK]

<div></div>the point is that it used to be fun to explore a zone with yellows and oranges in it.  stealth used to be a defining class ability that allowed you to get places others couldnt.  It no longer is.  And when every other freaking mob in Instance zones sees invis the concept of solo exploration has been basically elinminated from the game at higher levels.  I think what really needs to be done is to remove invis totems from the game completely and invis/stealth classes get back their stronger and reliable invis abilities

[Fennir]

Learn how to kill the stuff that sees you.  Or go around it.  Or find a friend and kill it.All better solutions than "cater to my laziness please!!"<div></div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>DjTeK wrote:<div></div>the point is that it used to be fun to explore a zone with yellows and oranges in it.  stealth used to be a defining class ability that allowed you to get places others couldnt.  It no longer is.  And when every other freaking mob in Instance zones sees invis the concept of solo exploration has been basically elinminated from the game at higher levels.  I think what really needs to be done is to remove invis totems from the game completely and invis/stealth classes get back their stronger and reliable invis abilities<hr></blockquote>The real point is that it used to allow bypassing content way more then the devs wanted. You're not supposed to be able to walk through entire zones to get somewhere without anything attacking you, especially if mobs are orange or higher.While I do agree that they went a little far the other way in some zones, like making every last giant in Sol Eye see invis, you're not going to get them to return to nothing sees invis like it used to be.</span></div>

[SniperKitty]

I for one would like to see a more robust and interactive stealth/invis system put into place.1. Stealth should be different than invis as it is now.2. See invis / see stealth should remain two seperate abilities, as it is now.3. Mobs should not automatically see through both, unless they're a powerfully enchanted creature (read: boss / epic)4. Put back the level checks into the invis and stealth lines.5. Give mobs a natural chance to see through both, that is low.6. Give the mobs a bonus to see through both based upon what abilties they have: see invis or see stealth7a. Make the skill check range twice as large as the aggro raidus, thus forcing players to pay attention as they try to stealth/invis through an area.-- or --7b. Have the mobs emote something and a brief colored aura outline the mob.<div></div>

[Keyh]

<div><span>I love this playerbase, it's awesome.  They make it easy on us and everyone complains "Stop making it so easy!!" then they implement something to make it a little harder and everyone is like "Stop nerfing xxx!!!!" or "Stop making xxxx useless!!!".Honestly.....suck it up.</span></div>

[Untruth]

<div></div><p>Somewhere along the way, people just seemed to have lost sight of the difference between a challenge, or not even worth the effort, or too easy, or being more time conservative. This reminds me of back when the scout-rogue archetype change quest required you to sneak through a small house, filled with see-invis mobs that were literally impossible to dodge - You would have to have the adept III sneak made in order to do it, since stealth was an upgradable skill. That doesn't make things too hard, it makes things rediculous, and impossible for new scouts. Luckily, they scrapped that stealth system early, and they scrapped the quest later. Thats how stealth is in the expansion zones right now - a archetype defined ability that doesn't even work on any zones past Sinking sands - Its not just more complicated sneaking, as SoE did have the mind to put in triple arrows that are hard to kill even with a full group of scouts, in every plausible location to sneak in. If mobs were spaced out like in Bonemire, then it wouldn't matter - it would be harder, not completely futile.</p><p>The next thing you know, they are going to bring down the class perks of every other archetype as well. Mobs will have access to the brigand CA that debuffs 3080 physical mitigation, and have new abilities that nullify avoidance for X seconds. In addition, mobs will also have access to scaled mana-damage spells, rendering casters useless as well. Thats like putting in a mob with 64 billion health, that AEs for 10,000, and single flurries for 20,000 each hit, and saying "suck it up, its a new challenge", when your character can't even statistically get close to matching any of the values. Well, i suppose they already did that for the week or two where they "mistakenly" made all named mobs miscon, and have another two arrows, even in solo instances.</p>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div>

[retro_guy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div><hr></blockquote>Actuallt there are plenty of places that you cannot travel at all because of the see invis mobs.Possibly as I level the mobs will no longer be able to see through invis, but I'm not counting on it.There are entire islands that are inaccessible to a solo player, even if they just want to look around.</span><div></div>

[Keyh]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div><hr></blockquote>Actuallt there are plenty of places that you cannot travel at all because of the see invis mobs.Possibly as I level the mobs will no longer be able to see through invis, but I'm not counting on it.There are entire islands that are inaccessible to a solo player, even if they just want to look around.</span><div></div><hr width="100%" size="2">You mean in live? Those islands would be what? I've been all over TT, and Barren Sky, Bonemire I've been to about 80% of.</blockquote></span></div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div><hr></blockquote>Actuallt there are plenty of places that you cannot travel at all because of the see invis mobs.Possibly as I level the mobs will no longer be able to see through invis, but I'm not counting on it.There are entire islands that are inaccessible to a solo player, even if they just want to look around.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>If you're lower level, and the mobs are all red, meaning you con grey to many of them, THAT is why they see through.There isn't a single island in any of the three zones that you can't explore while invis/sneak. It just takes a bit of careful walking. I've been around every island in the game so far.</span></div>

[EtoilePirate]

Okay: 61.5 Assassin, crawled all over the Tenebrous Tangle on Test for two days.About 30% of the Scaleborn Sentries on the main island -- Temple Grounds -- are see-stealth now.  That's not a problem, really; there are ways around.  What <i>is</i> a problem is that only about 90% of the ones that do see you con as such, with the red "I WILL AGGRO YOU AND EAT YOU ALIVE" outline.  I've gotten seriously jumped by some mobs that gave no indication whatsoever that they were aware of my presence, and that sucks.About 75% of the mobs in the Breeding Grounds now see-stealth.  Oh, well.  At least most of them are heroic.I didn't get to try all the other islands; bet the one with the mini evil eyes (ew) is a lot worse now though.<div></div>

[retro_guy]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div><hr></blockquote>Actuallt there are plenty of places that you cannot travel at all because of the see invis mobs.Possibly as I level the mobs will no longer be able to see through invis, but I'm not counting on it.There are entire islands that are inaccessible to a solo player, even if they just want to look around.</span><div></div><hr width="100%" size="2">You mean in live? Those islands would be what? I've been all over TT, and Barren Sky, Bonemire I've been to about 80% of.</blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote>Halls of Fate in Bonemire - the first mobs you come to are see invis so there's no way to explore that island at all.None of those mobs con red to me.I don't mind see invis mobs, but there are plenty already, and only a couple of places where you can freely roam without worrying about them. You still have to drop invis to harvest, so it's still risky and there are plenty of time I have to fight. Really this change is going to hurt the harvesters and small groups, but will do nothing for groups who want to "avoid content and get to the instances" they will train it anyway.I just want to harvest dammit!!</span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:07 PM</span></p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Keyh wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Fayline Fyrecat wrote:<div></div><div>I'm surprised to see ANY complaints about this change.  How trivial do you want this game to be?  You can travel anywhere in TT freely when invis.  I was able to get all my Bonemire discovery experience at 61; next to nothing sees through invis.  Heaven forbid we have to start *gasp* paying attention.</div><hr></blockquote>Actuallt there are plenty of places that you cannot travel at all because of the see invis mobs.Possibly as I level the mobs will no longer be able to see through invis, but I'm not counting on it.There are entire islands that are inaccessible to a solo player, even if they just want to look around.</span><div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">You mean in live? Those islands would be what? I've been all over TT, and Barren Sky, Bonemire I've been to about 80% of.</blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote>Halls of Fate in Bonemire - the first mobs you come to are see invis so there's no way to explore that island at all.None of those mobs con red to me.I don't mind see invis mobs, but there are plenty already, and only a couple of places where you can freely roam without worrying about them. You still have to drop invis to harvest, so it's still risky and there are plenty of time I have to fight. Really this change is going to hurt the harvesters and small groups, but will do nothing for groups who want to "avoid content and get to the instances" they will train it anyway.I just want to harvest dammit!!</span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hate to break it to you, but the way KoS is laid out, what with mobs pretty much surrounding every harvest node that is around, it seems to me that the Devs really didn't like the fact that people greyed out / found easy spots to harvest in DoF. So asking them to remove see invis mobs to harvest in KoS is very likely falling on deaf ears.</p><p>Also, I gotta say that having NO mobs see invis, while nice, is a bit much, and makes the game a bit too easy. Have they gone overboard with the see invis mobs in some areas? Sure. Does that mean they should remove see invis mobs from most areas to make it easier to sneak about, not really.</p><p>Its not as if they covered the islands completely with see invis mobs, you can still get around them while invis, you just have to be more careful now. Hell, I explored 80% of barren sky WITHOUT invis and very little aggro/death, and a good 50% or more of Bonemire the same way at level 60. Its not hard, you've just got to work your way around to get where you want to go. Invis isn't supposed to be an automatic "easy" button, its just supposed to allow you to scout ahead a bit, not make it so that you, or your group can sneak past the majority of the encounters, whether it be for quests, harvesting or named mob hunting.</p><p>Just my 2cp.</p><p>Message Edited by Cynto on <span class="date_text">03-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:00 AM</span></p>

[Ascillian]

<div></div><p>I think there are some serious problems with this change to stealth.  This is from my perspective as an assasin.  To me, stealth is a major part of my character, and exploring in stealth is likewise a major part of my character.  Do I think it gives me an advantage on some quests?  of course, but then there are plenty of other quests that I cant do as well as say a tank or a healer, so I think it ballances out.  For grouping, there are both invis totems and group invis/sneaks to help a group traverse invis. </p><p>I think that there should be see invis mobs in the world, especially in dungeons.  However I think that at least for overland areas, there should be ways to avoid them IF you take the time and effort to do so.  Stationary see invis mobs you may be able to skirt the edge of their agro range and avoid them.  Pathing see invis mobs you may have to wait for them to path away and quickly move through their path to safety.  Actually if done right I think that would be more interesting, and it would encourage working together when grouped to make sure everyone makes it through.</p><p>I also very much like the idea of scaled stealths/invis.  When steatlh used to be scaled it was always one of the first skills i upgraded and definitely one i took when it was a tradition option.  For my personal play style, stealth is what I do, I love wandering around zones (even lower level but not yet grey zones) and exploring and would hate it if I was no longer able to do so. </p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ascillian wrote:<div></div><p>However I think that at least for overland areas, there should be ways to avoid them IF you take the time and effort to do so.</p><hr></blockquote>It's already that way.</span></div>

[Sir Blig]

<div></div><div>The changes are definitely a pain, reminds me of another game I used to play were a few people got upset with people sneaking around so the bunch running the show made every single thing out there able to see invis,</div><div> </div><div>Since this change some places have been a royal pain to the point I was thinking of sending feedback to say it would have been less work for them to simply remove sneak/invis from the game.</div><div> </div><div>I can understand some but as mentioned sneak is one of the things that makes a scout,</div><div> </div><div>A royal example was trying to sneak down to nagy at lvl 60, where 90% of the mobs could see invis and they were all conning very green and having been down there many times I would have to ask why I should have to fight my way down every single time and should I even mention that at 60 I had to take a friend with otherwise I would end up on the menu</div><div> </div><div>Now I can understand red mobs able to see invis and would understand that some orange and very very few yellow and extremely few white next to no blue and forget green unless it was the odd name but yikes the first time i was in SoS 90% of the zone saw me while invis and there was no way to move arround them.</div><div> </div><div>That and when the most of the zones are so small there is no way to outrun them if spotted. (15min before exploring again)</div><div> </div><div>Although now that more things con blue to me it does seem that there is less see-invis but cant be sure as I have seen some days where I can run around at will and there is no see-invis anywhere, then the next day I come back and it is everywhere.</div><div> </div><div>And yup I have to agree that taking away the ability to upgrade sneak was crazy idea but seems more and more is going that way, make their life easier.</div><div> </div>

[EtoilePirate]

Honestly, the change isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be.  I play an Assassin and I'm in stealth 90% of my active play time and I'm not out there screaming bloody murder and crying nerf.I would say that on the whole, the see-change in Tenebrous makes it about as annoying as hanging out over near the Clefts of Rujark in DoF, with all those stupid highwaymen.  Only the difference now is that the name of a mob doesn't tell you anything about its abilities, and some things called Evil Mob X will see you and some things called Evil Mob X won't.<div></div>

[Sir Blig]

<div></div><p>Well if evil mod x had an 50% chance to spot a toon 2 levels higher and 75% equil level and 100% 2 levels below and beyond then it would explain how some can and some cant, but from what i saw on the nagy run eveything see invis thing 9-10 levels below me could see invis, may be some changes to t7 but would need to do a good deal of checking,</p>

[Sem]

<div></div><div></div><div>Adding a few see invis mobs in TT isn't a big deal.   It's still going to be easier to get around there than in the other two zones because the mobs are low level.</div><div> </div><div>Kaerr</div><div>68 Assassin<hr></div><div> </div><div>Says the level 68 assassin <grin>.    It's a huge deal if you're a T7 tradeskiller and low level adventurer. </div><div> </div><div>They need to add more nodes right around the cloud platforms or acknnowledge that the game plan has changed to accomodate adventurers only. </div><div> </div><div>Tiers 1 - 6 supported the original concept that someone could tradeskill to full levels while remaining a very low level adventurer.  Unless they intend for T7 to signal the end of that concept, changes to invis / stealth (which was the only way to survive harvesting T7) need to be met with like changes to the availability of all types of nodes. </div><div> </div><div>Currently I've only found  Provisioner shrubs, Roots and Gemstone nodes plentifully in safe areas.  Wood and ore are tough going.  I've never seen an Alchemy node.      At 57 I have no problem traversing all through KoS harvesting, though the route is very slow going so the amount harvested in 5 hours of nothing but harvests is tiny for a tier taht has doubled the amount of harvest needed per combine.     My guildies who tradeskill instead of adventuring can't do it without invis / stealth at their level - and harvesting T7 for multiple people will be a full time job.</div><p>Message Edited by Semma on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:20 PM</span></p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Semma wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>They need to add more nodes right around the cloud platforms or acknnowledge that the game plan has changed to accomodate adventurers only. </div><div> </div><div>Tiers 1 - 6 supported the original concept that someone could tradeskill to full levels while remaining a very low level adventurer.  Unless they intend for T7 to signal the end of that concept, changes to invis / stealth (which was the only way to survive harvesting T7) need to be met with like changes to the availability of all types of nodes. </div><div> </div><div>Currently I've only found  Provisioner shrubs, Roots and Gemstone nodes plentifully in safe areas.  Wood and ore are tough going.  I've never seen an Alchemy node.      At 57 I have no problem traversing all through KoS harvesting, though the route is very slow going so the amount harvested in 5 hours of nothing but harvests is tiny for a tier taht has doubled the amount of harvest needed per combine.     My guildies who tradeskill instead of adventuring can't do it without invis / stealth at their level - and harvesting T7 for multiple people will be a full time job.</div><hr></blockquote>Who said you'd be able to harvest it yourself?You can still be a low level adventurer, but maybe, just maybe, you'll have to forgo harvesting yourself in many areas.Buy your resources, and you can be level 1 and still be a crafter <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Sem]

Who said you'd be able to harvest it yourself?You can still be a low level adventurer, but maybe, just maybe, you'll have to forgo harvesting yourself in many areas.Buy your resources, and you can be level 1 and still be a crafter <img height="16" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0"><div><hr></div><div> </div><div>lol true - but this is the first tier where they've made it like that.  It's an unannounced roadblock that halts the way some have played since rollout - it kind of shoves them out the door if all they liked to do was harvest and craft.  If pushing them out was not intentional change, it should be noted and addressed.</div>

[Persi]

<div></div><p>Since almost everything can see through stealth, why don't they just take it out of the game completely? Why would you give a player an ability, like stealth, when almost all mobs can negate that ability? Just my thoughts on it....</p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assassin on Unrest</p>

[Ookami-san]

<div></div><p>I personally cringe whenever I see a class defining ability nerfed... which is effectively being done now.</p><p>I think a better solution would be to change the level at which a mob can see thru invis.  Currently, mobs X levels above you can see through.  Simply make that smaller for certain dungeons...</p><p>You should ALWAYS be able to sneak past things that are green to you.  Sorry... alert or not... you simply outclass them.  Perhaps they could see a lesser rogue... but not you.</p><p>They've been systematically stripping abilities from rogues to the point where there is less utility, without compensating with more dps.  I don't like this trend.  First... traps become trivial.  Stealth gets effectively nerfed - yes... making everything and it's brother see stealth IS nerfing it.  If a tree falls and nobody hears it sort of thing.</p><p>Compare it this way... it's like making healing less effective while in KoS, making wizard spells generate three times as much hate in KoS or making plate classes wear chain when in KoS dungeons.  All of those affect class defining abilities... and all would be a nerf.  So adding an overabundance of stealth seeing mobs.</p>

[Jai1]

<div></div>Last post talked about complexity.  This one says the games too hard.  This arguement has always had two camps.  Personally, I think you are a scout.  Does a scout barrel through a zone?  I would think they they would target all to see what and what does not see stealth.  Avoid the ones that do and be strategic about it. 

[Miranni]

<div>My biggest gripe is the green things seeing though invis, as well as some mobs that make no sense seeing invis. "A Bloodscale <em>Warrior</em>" should not be seeing through my invis!! I don't mind scout mobs seeing through invis, this makes sense. But the fact is if you are higher level than them, they just shouldn't see you. You should have learned a "trick" in that level that they were white to you that enabled you to sneak around them. If they fixed this then I would be just fine with stealth (although I would still like those rares back from when you changed sneak/freeboot into unupgradeable spells.. oh yeah cheap shot too, thanks).</div>