Bring back some form of RISK!

[Phank]

<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Ildarus]

<div></div><div></div>bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by Ildarus on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p>

[Giral]

<div>to put a slightly diffrent twist on your idea Phank , they could implement certain instances with Shared debt and Up the exp rate slightly and also Increase the Debt the group get's</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[sunmagic]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ildarus wrote:<div></div><div></div>bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by Ildarus on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure about that. If I were in a group and worked with everyone before I'd want that say "4%" XP. Why not?I'm doing groups just for XP. If it's gets me leveled faster that's great! But I can see the downside to this. But thenyou can always leave the group if it sucked. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[EternallyConfuzzled]

<div>>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.</div><div>This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.</div>

[Terabethia]

<div><font color="#33ccff"></font></div><div><span class="222324716-01032006"><font face="Georgia" color="#33ccff">I am still curious about how people equated spirit shards to any sort of risk. When you die now, you still take a 10% hit to your gear, and you get about 3x the amount of debt you used to get. A shard didn't really do anything for you. If you simply logged out, it would be returned in 3 days. You could play without it, and just loose a small % of your stats. Or, you can do what 80% of the players did and petition that it was unrecoverable and have a GM get it. The latter is the exact reason that they removed the shards. They were sick of their GM's spending half their day recovering shards. So if you want to blame anyone, blame the players, not SoE.</font></span></div><div><span class="222324716-01032006"><font face="Georgia" color="#33ccff"></font></span> </div><div><span class="222324716-01032006"><font face="Georgia" color="#33ccff">Shards do not equal risk. They never did. If you are the type of player that will try something that you know you probably can't do, you are going to do that with or without the possible loss of a shard. It's not like they were hard to go back and get. And most of the time, you simply get a rez and a shard never appeared. </font></span></div><div><span class="222324716-01032006"><font face="Georgia" color="#33ccff"></font></span> </div><div><span class="222324716-01032006"><font face="Georgia" color="#33ccff">There is plenty of risk in this game, including penalties of death. Please let the shard argument go. If you want a real, true risk, go play EQ1. When you die... you actually leave your whole corpse! And if you don't go get it, it just rots with everything you own on it. That is risk. A glowing shard on the ground is not. </font></span></div>

[skidmark]

PvP, it is exciting

[EtoilePirate]

Risk is entirely where you choose to find it.  It took me forever to ding 61 because I had debt for nearly all of level 60.  Was it because of my groups?  No, not at all.  I was consistently grouped with some really teriffic people who know what they're doing, and as a result only had a half-dozen group wipes in all that time.  It was because I chose exploration, and challenging mobs, and, "hmm, let's see if it's possible to climb there.  Oops, it's not" adventures.I think the game has lots of risk... for the willing.<div></div>

[pera]

<div></div>I'm 66 almost 67 now, I dont think i've died less than 10 times per level, why?, becuase my guild groups have been exploring quite a bit and it has been very rewarding.  We have found out limits and risk of pushing those limits quite a few times over.I'm realy happy with the state of death in eq2.   Thre was no more "risk" involved before just a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to get shards back, and expecialy with KoS with all the islands that would of just been silly.<div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 PM</span></p>

[Stryyfe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>The game has risk. Go try it out on a higher level if you aren't challenged, there is plenty you haven't done.</p><p>The part where you really don't get it is, Ideally, the shard concept was great.  The problem is, if you grab pickup groups, people are completley out of control and avoid the use of strategy at all times, it was impossible to avoid some [Removed for Content] in  your group greedy for exp training the group several times and gathering debt.  Shard recovery and group debt is a complete waste of subscribers time... it was reflected by the drop in subscribers, there is no way it can be denied.</p><p>One of their main goals was to reduce the amount of time wasted on certain aspects of the game, to live up to their soloability and casual game concept for the common player. </p><p>I do however, like your idea on flagging group debt on or off, to provide a bonus, as you said, it was implemented badly at first.</p><p>The shard recovery however, is a complete waste of my time and they did the absolute right thing on taking it out.  It does not make the game more challenging, because you obviously crawled down a dungeon to the point of your death once... so the CHALLENGE part of it has already been accomplished... they were adding annoyance by requiring you to go down there again and get your shard... or across the zone.. or wherever (since you could click on doors in some cases to recover shard)</p><p>You need to let this subject go already, Debt and Shard aspects are satisfying an overwhelming majority of players, trust me, even as a fellow player, that is what you want, it makes it easier for us to play and enjoy the content.</p>

[Vikk1]

<div><blockquote><hr>skidmark wrote:PvP, it is exciting<hr></blockquote>Agreed.  If you want more risk, try a PvP server.</div>

[pera]

Aye pvp is really cool the way they did it.<div></div>

[Jai1]

<div></div>I think the game has risks.  Try harvesting T7.  Take on a herioc mob near your level.  Fight an orange named with a group. Raid hard encounters. Even joining a pick up group has risks.  It's for that reason that group debt was a bad idea. Even dying has risks if you want to keep your camp in a crouded zone for instance.  The game has risks but I'll agree that failure doesn't result in harse penalties. I kinda like that aspect.

[Kasm]

<div></div>We playing the same game?  Cause since KoS launch I have died more making one level than I have in the last 10.  Just my two cents I think the game is hard enough now as it is.  Want some risk go running through some of the new KoS zones and see how far you can make it without taking a dirt nap.

[kenm]

<div></div><div></div><div>Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk.  Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing.   And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...</div><div>I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?</div><p>Message Edited by kenman on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:48 AM</span></p>

[Stryyfe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk.  Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. <strong><font color="#ffff00">This doesn't mean it's a design flaw, it means players have a way around it, you dont have to use it, I don't use it personally, therefore... = risk. You have control over the challenge and risk you face.</font></strong></div><div> </div><div>  And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...<strong><font color="#ffff00">God forbid players that accrue debt and aren't more than a casual gamer get some of that removed while their accruing vitality.... If you want more debt, go raid... We raided Court of Al'ka last night and I died 9 times for about 5-6% debt, and got no exp in the mean time.  Again, go find yourself a challenge and stop complaining, when you obviously haven't challenged yourself yet..... you must be yelling at yourself.</font></strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div>I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? <strong><font color="#ffff33">This game is not for you, you require a seperate play-style and game requirements.  You also must have much more play time that alot of players... you need to honestly think of the amount of married people with kid's and jobs.. where their significant others or children do not play EQ with them.  Can you imagine someone getting home at 6pm, taking care of their kid, logging on for 2 hours to accomplish something, and they spend 1.5 hours getting their stuff back, and their next 2 hours the next night erasing their debt.  Stop being so selfish.</font></strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ffff33"></font></strong> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffff33">You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time.  You are "some" of the people and you aren't pleased. Make it harder for yourself or move on to something that fits your needs/wants.  If the game is not fun to you, and you find fun in "more" of a challenge, then why don't you go have more fun elsewhere?</font></strong></div><p>Message Edited by kenman on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:48 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[SirHobbs]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>EternallyConfuzzled wrote:<div>>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.</div><div>This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.</div><hr></blockquote>This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2.<p>Message Edited by SirHobbs on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:48 PM</span></p>

[Terabethia]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk.  Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing.   And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...</div><div>I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?<hr></div></blockquote><font color="#33ccff">The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp.</font>  

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><p>armor Repair costs are AFTER the fact , i don't even think about Armour repair costs till i get to a mender, <---- that doesn't equal a death penelty ,</p><p> </p><p>Shard's Recovery, Reduced Stat's for Each shard missing, Armour repair cost's, AND Group Dept <<<-- was a great system worked fine IMO and groups worked better together becuase of it , Now you have Agro [Removed for Content] all over the place , people dieng without a care in the world ,etc,,,, the game is Less becuase the people care less death is a dream in eq2</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:28 PM</span></p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>To those who say.. Theres no risk I say get out of you closet and go somewhere where everything is RED.</div><div>As far as penalties go...</div><div>Yes debt is easy to get rid of.</div><div>Yes Armor costs are easy to avoid.</div><div>Death penalties are there for one thing.  To slow you down not stop you.</div><div>Too many people would rebel and the game would grind to a halt if you made deaths a 10% more debt or more.</div><div> </div><div>You want to make people pause and think.. should I really do that.  Lets first try upping the effects of revival.  Not RES sickness just revival sickness.  Make it to where it lasts for a minimum of 5 minutes,  Reduces stats by 25%. If you die again when you have revival sickness then the time and effects are added.    Is this gonna solve the problem.... Not entierly.</div><div>Is it a start... IMO YES</div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:52 PM</span></p>

[sharz]

lol should have posted this when they were talking about it dont care any more<div></div>

[Flor]

<div>You are beating dead horse here.  Lot's of people squealed like stuck pigs when first the group penalty was eliminated.  And then again when shards were eliminated.  To me, shards meant really no harder of a challenge.  Just a timesink that impacted on my enjoyment of the game.  I'm glad they are gone and I hope that SOE never brings this back.  There is plenty of challenge in the game without having silly shard runs IMHO.  As others have said, there are plenty of ways to challenge yourself.</div><div> </div><div>I've been reading with interest the Vanguard forums (just out of curiousity and no desire to leave EQ2).  The same debate seems to be doing on over there with many of the old EQ1 players supporting a tough, tough death penalty.  It will be interesting to see how death penalities are implemented in this new game.  And if they are really tough, whether people will really like it in the long run.   I see nothing fun about dying deep in a dungeon and then spending hours and hours backtracking to recover your shard.  Been there, done it.  And I didn't like it.  To me, fun is exploring new places with your group, trying not to die, and to reach the end successfully.  That to me is good fun.</div><div> </div><div>Remember that much of the MMORPG market has aged from the early gaming glory days.  I loved the days of carefree gaming---- pre-kids.  A whole weekend or latenight gaming dedicated to my original MMORPG.  Now, how are wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends going to tolerate that plaintive plea of, "Honey, just give me 2 more hours to get my corpse.  Yes, yes, I know the garbage needs to be taken out and the bills paid.  But honey, my group needs me bad.  Please?  Hugs, kisses, smochie poo?   I'll give you a back massage when I come up to bed?   Please?"................:smileywink:</div>

[Persi]

<div></div><p>Mending costs me 18 gold. So when I do something that might kill me I'm taking a <font color="#ff0000">risk</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[kenm]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:<p><font color="#33ccff">The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp.</font>  </p><hr></blockquote>53 Berserker, full cobalt.  I don't think my repair costs have ever gone to more than half a plat and since I rarely die it's hardly an issue at all.  I have over 3 plat at the moment on me with absolutely nothing to look forward to buy except food and drink, maybe a 48% mount to upgrade from my carpet when my guild hits level 30 in ten years.  Other than that I'd really kill for something useful to blow my money on without purposely dying about 60 times or playing the lotto to win an even larger amount of pointless plat.

[Maroger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SirHobbs wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>EternallyConfuzzled wrote:<div>>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.</div><div>This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.</div><hr></blockquote>This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2.<p>Message Edited by SirHobbs on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.

[Amytheyst]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk.  Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing.   And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...</div><div>I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?</div><p>Message Edited by kenman on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:48 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want.</span></div>

[retro_guy]

You're all weenies.I have a revolver with one bullet by my PC, and for every in-game death I spin the chamber and test my luck.It's easy to add risk to the game, you just have to be creative.<div></div>

[kenm]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Amytheyst wrote:<span><div>Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want.</span><hr></div></blockquote><div>Sorry, but there's no thrill if I have to actually force myself to do that.  The game should have the risk, I shouldn't have to add it myself.</div><div>Death should sting, it makes not dying an actual accomplishment.  What's the accomplishment when any idiot can play horribly and zerg mobs and be exactly the same as someone playing well and not dying?  The lack of a death penalty is the exact reason WoW is filled with level 60 idiots that have no idea how to play their class properly, can you honestly say that's a good thing?</div><div>I just pity you if you can't see how nice it feels to know how much it'd suck to die and then succeed at your goal without dying.  I swear you'd have to play every game with godmode on to not once experience that feeling.</div><div>Oh well, can't wait for Vanguard to come out.</div>

[Zerebro]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>I was having the same idea at first, but now totally used to it and now have the same feelings about dying. Even while there's only a small debt and 10% more damage I often am far into an area and the group has to rerun to get there again. Still same risk feeling for me.PS: It has some advantages when you want to pick up people at the beginning of an area when you can't invis/evac back, just die and run to the entrance <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But I hardly use it for transferring me.</span></div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>The game has risks.  It is called xp debt and lag.  Lag is a major risk that we take everytime we play.  For example, I am lvl 64.  I was killing a lvl 55 heroic in Pillar of Flames.  I unfortunately encountered lag.  Result the fight was over in a matter of what appeared to be seconds.  And I was dead.</span><div></div>

[Dojoc]

then start a ranger and try some namedsthats <font size="5">risk</font> at the current state <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Terron]

Removing shards removed some of the fun I got from the game.I know there were problems with shards, but those problems could have been fixed, and that would have been better for my style of play than removing them completely and leaving just a trivial debt for each death and the need to pay fairly low repair costs every 10 deaths.If I'm dying repeatedly them I consider am doing something wrong and the penalties should be annoying.I know there are different ways of playing. Some people even enjoy raiding repeatedly, and seem to think that everything that gets in the way of that should be removed. Unless SoE want to get rid of all the people who don't like one particular style they need to balance them to maximise their profits.<div></div>

[Phey]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vikk1 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>skidmark wrote:PvP, it is exciting<hr></blockquote>Agreed.  If you want more risk, try a PvP server.</div><hr></blockquote><p>i have to agree here, if you really want risk, try doing your HQs, AQs, any questing, or just plain old xp grinding, especially while in contested areas on the PvP servers.  i'm looking forward to getting a group together when i am able to do the Stein of Moggok.  not sure how that will work since opposing faction guards can KILL you now, not to mention all the freeport players who will surely be about to have a hand at your demise LOL <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Baoh</p><p>22 Monk, Venekor</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><p>being here from early on I liked the shards and the group XP debth.</p><p>it did much for group play. nowadays if a caster gets mashed during a fight no one cares - not even the caster himself. and a group wipe just means you mustn't forget to buff up again before you kill that heroic mob at the second attempt to get your debth back(AND a small bonus).</p><p>in former days casters had to be protected, everybody knew it and did his/her best - sometimes even a faint smell of heroism lay in the air...... a tank holding (or easily regaining) aggro was not just a part of the XP-grinding machine but a lifesaver and having a good healer wasnt here for saving downtime but to make the difference between succes or blunder.</p><p>nowadays a group of incompetent half-wits is just a group whos slow at grinding  - a year ago they where nothing less than doomed to actually loose XP in the long run :smileyhappy:</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></blockquote><p>you DO realize that where not talking about CHANGING the game we bought in 2004 but to have <strong>that game BACK -</strong> or don't you do? </p><p>It's rather YOU can keep WoW or whatever supports your play style and dont inflict your ideas on the game I started to play a long time ago.</p><p>(and yes I also found naked corpse runs in EQL always a great motivation not to group with every [Removed for Content] who didn't even know how to make /assist work)</p><p><strong></strong></p>

[Anlari]

<div></div><p>People keep saying fight reds or names and thats risk.  The sad fact is it is not risk.  I have no fear of death in this game at all.  All the time my group will say "Are you suyre?", and I reply, "Whats the worst that will happen?  We will die and get a free ride back". </p><p>I hated EQ's corpse runs because often it only penalized those people without access to a ceric.  The spirit shards were kinda a weenie death penalty also.  I think the old grave approach works well myself.  You gain like 10% debt and recover about two-thirds if you reach your grave (where you died). </p><p>I know time-sinks don't equal difficult, but they do equal something people want to avoid, hence, its a workable penalty. Rioght now there is no timesink, no real xp dept, and no fear of death at all.</p>

[Magiocracy]

You know I'm getting very tired of the hardman attitude that some players seem to adopt to everything - this is a GAME, and the vast majority of people who play it do so for fun, not out of some twisted masochistic pleasure in making things as hard as possible.If you want to make the game harder for yourself then by all means go ahead and do so, there are plenty of suggestions in this thread of how to do so, but please don't try to force the rest of us to do the same.<div></div>

[xsvhrs]

<hr width="100%" size="2"><span>PS: It has some advantages when you want to pick up people at the beginning of an area when you can't invis/evac back, just die and run to the entrance <img width="16" border="0" src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" height="16">But I hardly use it for transferring me.</span><hr width="100%" size="2">Yup, I have to agree here. Death hurts so little now, that I use it all the time as tranportation. However, the devs have specifically stated that this was not their intention, and that there would be changes made to the death penalty in the near future to make it hurt a little more. And although I use death as a means of transportation now, I completly agree with the devs position.<span></span><div></div>

[Styk]

<div></div><p>The removal of shards was kinda weak imo but at least now with the AA system even after 70 the debt you obtain will still have to be cleared before you can resume exping for AA again, so it KINDA will work itself out, IMO ( remember this is my opinion ) they need to remove the fact that you can lose xp debt by simply not logging on for a few days , that would make the game at least a little more challanging .....</p><p>Also i hope SoE doesnt go and simplify things in KoS ( imo the difficulty of the expansion is spot on ) ..... Mob hp looks good for the most part ( thou some mobs in the 67+ areas need alitlle more hp imo ) , and its actually fun to go around ... Please dont make things easier due to some people wanting things easier from this expansion, leave the difficulty as it is ....</p>

[teaka stormbring]

<div></div>Group debt? I'm a wizzy and die alot granted im not in the top 10 on the server but I pull agro often and I wear a doctors office gown I think they refer to them as robes.  Would you group with me? 

[Maroger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></blockquote><p>you DO realize that where not talking about CHANGING the game we bought in 2004 but to have <strong>that game BACK -</strong> or don't you do? </p><p>It's rather YOU can keep WoW or whatever supports your play style and dont inflict your ideas on the game I started to play a long time ago.</p><p>(and yes I also found naked corpse runs in EQL always a great motivation not to group with every [Removed for Content] who didn't even know how to make /assist work)</p><hr></blockquote><p>I got news for you I played the game when it first came out so I remember shards etc. I hated the game and only came back when they made some signficant changes for casual players like myself.</p><p>Most of us our happy with the "risk" these days so if your are not try EQL for a death penalty -- and don't get a 96% rez -- that way you can lose 6% of your XP -- keep it up and you can lose your level too -- won't that be fun for you!!!</p>

[Maroger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:You know I'm getting very tired of the hardman attitude that some players seem to adopt to everything - this is a GAME, and the vast majority of people who play it do so for fun, not out of some twisted masochistic pleasure in making things as hard as possible.If you want to make the game harder for yourself then by all means go ahead and do so, there are plenty of suggestions in this thread of how to do so, but please don't try to force the rest of us to do the same.<div></div><hr></blockquote>/claps wildly in agreement !!:smileyhappy:

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></blockquote><p>you DO realize that where not talking about CHANGING the game we bought in 2004 but to have <strong>that game BACK -</strong> or don't you do? </p><p>It's rather YOU can keep WoW or whatever supports your play style and dont inflict your ideas on the game I started to play a long time ago.</p><p>(and yes I also found naked corpse runs in EQL always a great motivation not to group with every [Removed for Content] who didn't even know how to make /assist work)</p><hr></blockquote><p>I got news for you I played the game when it first came out so I remember shards etc. I hated the game and only came back when they made some signficant changes for casual players like myself.</p><p>Most of us our happy with the "risk" these days so if your are not try EQL for a death penalty -- and don't get a 96% rez -- that way you can lose 6% of your XP -- keep it up and you can lose your level too -- won't that be fun for you!!!</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yup Maroger, I totally agree with you.  I played EQ2 when it first came out and I hated it with a passion.  I remember waiting around forever to try to get a group together because of the lack of solo content.  Finally getting a group together and wiping deep in some place we couldn't get back to easily.  And it being late and having to go to work the next day.   How "fun" it was trying to recover a shard, dying repeatedly.  People having to log and the group falling apart.  Wasting another hour trying to get more folks from the guild to help you recover now three lost shards.  I saw the original EQ2 being as fun and poking a sharp stick in my eye.  As a result, I went over to WoW and had a great deal of fun before it became boring to me at end game.</p><p>I don't get the old EQ1 mentality.  I don't mean to bash people who have played EQ1 but I don't understand the need to have pain in a game to get your fun.  I've played many, many MMORPGs (AC1, AC2, Horizons, SWG, WoW, E&B) and have experienced various death penalities.  I fail to see how horrible death penalities or losing exp upon death makes you a better or "uber" player.  It makes you into a player who likes some pain mixed with your fun--- a player who has a lot of disposable time on your hands.  Even in "easy" games like WoW, if you were careless and got your group killed (for example deep in an instance), you would not be invited back into groups.  WoW had a great deal of risk actually if you did raids or instances.  You could lose hours of your time if you wiped and the dungeon respawned.  RISK in a game comes in many forms, not just a severe death penalty.</p><p>I think that Vanguard may be the game for many who are unhappy with the way EQ2 is going.  From what I'm reading, it seems to have some of the same philosophies as the original EQ1---harsh death penalities, slow leveling, etc.  I hope that it attracts the people looking for pain in their game and EQ2 continues to evolve into a really, really fun game.  Good job EQ2 developers.  You have my money for months to come....:smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Signed,</p><p>Floria---a semi-serious gamer who likes to have fun in her games</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><div>Imo its a legitimate request to have the game back I started my subsicription for.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>and when some of you no-penalty-whiners play basketball....which is a game after all you should ENJOY.....you probably choose blind or disabled oponents to avoid frustration.....and I am sure you have even a sense of achievement beating them  all the time :smileysurprised:</div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><div><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote></div><div> </div><div>I think the platinum (usually after raids) it costs me to repair is bad enough of a penalty.  In fact I perfer  debt and droping a shard over the money I lose everytime I die.   And the reality out there is SoE has to worry about about other online games out there.  They are a business at the end and more people like a more enjoyable gaming experience.  Some may not like it but the majority don't want lots of extra hardships for the point of being challenged.</div><div> </div><div>Plus don't you think the game  has put in enough changes already?  Do we really need to go backwards now. </div><div> </div><div>I say leave the dead horse alone.</div></blockquote><p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:56 AM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Imo its a legitimate request to have the game back I started my subsicription for.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>and when some of you no-penalty-whiners play basketball....which is a game after all you should ENJOY.....you probably choose blind or disabled oponents to avoid frustration.....and I am sure you have even a sense of achievement beating them  all the time :smileysurprised:</div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:43 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Couple comments on your post.  Games will always evolve.  You never really have the same game that you started from launch.  It's a fact of MMORPG evolution.  Game mechanics are tweaked.  Classes are tweaked.  You can live with it or cancel your subscription.</p><p>Second comment.  The only person I hear whining is you about death penalties.  Why can't you have a sense of achievement tackling a tough quest mobs?  Achieving a level?  Finding a rare?  Maxing out your trade skill level?  Completing heritage quests.  Doing raids with your guild?  The game has some very tough challenges and when you tackle and defeat those challenges, it is pretty neat stuff.  Why the heck does a harsh death penalty make you feel a sense of achievement?  <<Shakes head>></p><p>If you are unhappy, take a break or find another game that satifisfies your need in an MMORPG.  Check out the Vanguard forums.  It sounds like this may be up your alley and what the "hardcore" are looking for.</p><p>PS  One comment on disabled athletes---some of them could probably kick your booty so don't generalize......:smileywink:</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>PS  One comment on disabled athletes---some of them could probably kick your booty so don't generalize......:smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>NBA-team beats disabled basketball WC team</p><p>kid with glasses beats blind kid</p><p>sad but true as long as anyone plays in his league</p>

[xsvhrs]

<hr width="100%" size="2">Couple comments on your post.  Games will always evolve.  You never really have the same game that you started from launch.  It's a fact of MMORPG evolution.  Game mechanics are tweaked.  Classes are tweaked.  You can live with it or cancel your subscription.<hr width="100%" size="2">That's true. And becasue the devs have recently stated that they intend to make more changes to the death penalty, to make it a bit more harsh, I would expect you have have this same point of view then as well as now.<div></div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div>You want risk, go play on the pvp server...it's hella fun and always intense.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>and if you want it easy go play an offline-game in god mode....but that wouldn't grant you satisfaction, hm?</div><div> </div><div>you want to play in god-mode while erybodys watching and hope anyone cares :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Magiocracy]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div>and if you want it easy go play an offline-game in god mode....but that wouldn't grant you satisfaction, hm?</div><div> </div><div>you want to play in god-mode while erybodys watching and hope anyone cares :smileyvery-happy:</div><hr></blockquote><p>...ah yes, this old chestnut...when this is wheeled out you can be sure that the person has run out of real arguments. Just as easy for me to tell you that if you want a hard game go play an offline game in extreme difficulty mode or whatever - it's a non-argument.</p><p>No-one is asking for a god-mode, what we are asking for is a game without undue frustration.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<p>No-one is asking for a god-mode, what we are asking for is a game without undue frustration.</p><hr></blockquote>that sounds like there is auctually frustration you don't find undue?

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magiocracy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div>and if you want it easy go play an offline-game in god mode....but that wouldn't grant you satisfaction, hm?</div><div> </div><div>you want to play in god-mode while erybodys watching and hope anyone cares :smileyvery-happy:</div><hr></blockquote><p>...ah yes, this old chestnut...when this is wheeled out you can be sure that the person has run out of real arguments. Just as easy for me to tell you that if you want a hard game go play an offline game in extreme difficulty mode or whatever - it's a non-argument.</p><hr></blockquote><blockquote>same applies here:<hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div>You want risk, go play on the pvp server...it's hella fun and always intense.<hr></blockquote>

[ldavis]

<div></div><p>I would like a plate of increased risk with a side of more loot myself.  The "grind" is bad enough, but with so few chests dropping and now no reason to even care if you die it's getting really dull.</p><p>Did you know there are portals all over Lavastorm that take you immediatly back to the dock?  Just jump in a lava pool and your home!  It's a great time saver.</p>

[xsvhrs]

<hr width="100%" size="2">Did you know there are portals all over Lavastorm that take you immediatly back to the dock?  Just jump in a lava pool and your home!  It's a great time saver.<hr width="100%" size="2">And therein lies the problem. Any time it's more desirable to kill yourself to be telepoted accross the zone rather than run there, then you know the death penalty isn't steep enough. Death should not be to trivial that it can be used as a viable means of transportation.<div></div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>...ah yes, this old chestnut...when this is wheeled out you can be sure that the person has run out of real arguments. Just as easy for me to tell you that if you want a hard game go play an offline game in extreme difficulty mode or whatever - it's a non-argument.same applies here:</p><hr>Geekyone wrote:</blockquote><blockquote><div></div><p>You want risk, go play on the pvp server...it's hella fun and always intense.</p><hr></blockquote><p></p><hr><p align="left">No it doesn't, because I am still playing EQ2, I'm not talking about a different game.  I'm telling you that EQ2 does have risks, you are just playing the wrong EQ2.  I dont' think EQ2 on a non pvp server is at all risky either, nor do I find it at all difficult, which in turn makes it boring.   EQ2 on a pvp server is the same game in a whole new light.  There is risk, there is a new differnt greater degree of difficulty.  Unless you have been playing on the PvP server, and can tell me I'm wrong, you have no ground to merit your above statement on.  Because I'm not playing a different game, or a game in godmode, I'm playing EQ2 the same one as you in the same fashion, just with risk.</p></blockquote>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">Couple comments on your post.  Games will always evolve.  You never really have the same game that you started from launch.  It's a fact of MMORPG evolution.  Game mechanics are tweaked.  Classes are tweaked.  You can live with it or cancel your subscription.<hr size="2" width="100%">That's true. And becasue the devs have recently stated that they intend to make more changes to the death penalty, to make it a bit more harsh, I would expect you have have this same point of view then as well as now.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>To answer your pointed comment, I'm actully pretty flexible about what the developers do in the game.  I wasn't that happy with CU#13 but I adapted and played the game.  I doubt they will bring back the spirit shards to make it harder.  Perhaps there will be more of a exp debt to be paid off.  Or perhaps more expensive to repair armor.  All in all, I"m pretty flexible with whatever comes down the road.  The thing that would make me leave EQ2 though is debt like I remembered when I first played EQ2 upon launch.  My memory is hazy ( bad memories of EQ2 at launch that I've somewhat blocked) but I recall the amount of debt that you could accumulate being pretty high and feeling that it would take you forever to get out of the hole.  Another thing that would make me quit would be to un-ding a level upon death.   I know that some of you "hardcore"  folks would love that to be implemented along with hour long boat rides.  But for us more casual players, it become intolerable. </p><p>And before ya' tell me to go back to WoW ,  I'm a casual player but I love to have a complex game that I can really sink my teeth into for years.   I don't mind slow leveling.  I don't mind taking a long time to complete  quests.  I don't demand instant gratification.  One of the downfalls of WoW was the the super fast leveling and simplicity of the game.  EQ2, IMHO, beats a game like WoW hands down.  The thing that WoW got right was the fun aspect in a MMORPG.  Even though the game was not long lasting for me, it sure was fun.  I think that the EQ2 development team is taking a look at what makes a game loads of fun and trying to implement these kinds of changes.  The shard runs, although "fun" for some of you, were an irritant for others. </p><p>With all that said, I wasn't super upset with shard runs in the first place.   I dealt with it as part of the game.  But now that they are gone, I don't want them back.  Heck, I played AC1 for many years and had my full compliment of "death items" on me.  And remember having vitae to deal with.  Did I get a rush at the "risk" in the game? Nope.</p>

[xsvhrs]

<hr width="100%" size="2">I doubt they will bring back the spirit shards to make it harder.<hr width="100%" size="2">On that we agree. I think they are looking closely at implementing a solution that reduces vitality by a significant amount with each death, in conjunction with the current xp debt and repair costs.I think if you lost, say 10% of your vitality with each death, in addition to the current penalty, that would be enough to prevent people from using death as a means of transportation, and add a sense of danger back into the game. And to prevent favoring the 'harcore' 24/7 players over casual players, If the character had no vitality, then the xp debt would double, from the current 2% to 4%.<div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p align="left"> Unless you have been playing on the PvP server, and can tell me I'm wrong, you have no ground to merit your above statement on. </p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>I played PvP servers in EQL until they introduced the graveyard and finally took the 1-item-loot rule away from the last server that had it, thank you very much.</p><p>......and sacrificed a char to start playing on the EQ2 PvP RP server the very first night. but the quests in the ruins, the caves and vermins snye I did since then dont play differently just because in antonica some assasins are prowling. and the quests within the city boundaries (just think of the CoB) will take me easily to 20+</p><p>....so wow......how exciting and risky playing on a PvP server :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>But I have no intention of telling you that you are wrong or prove something to you. I'll just keep rasing my voice on behalf of the game I was completely satisfied with for the fist 6 months.</p>

[SirHobbs]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">Did you know there are portals all over Lavastorm that take you immediatly back to the dock?  Just jump in a lava pool and your home!  It's a great time saver.<hr size="2" width="100%">And therein lies the problem. Any time it's more desirable to kill yourself to be telepoted accross the zone rather than run there, then you know the death penalty isn't steep enough. Death should not be to trivial that it can be used as a viable means of transportation.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Ah, the easiest means of travel. I use it, all you have to do is unequip everything before you jump in and boom, right there. Also, I thought I would add that Retro_Guy's post is very creative, maybe we should give it a try? Right Retro???? You still alive to tell us?</p><p>"You're all weenies.I have a revolver with one bullet by my PC, and for every in-game death I spin the chamber and test my luck.It's easy to add risk to the game, you just have to be creative."</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></blockquote><p>Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different.</p><p>So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore.</p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><p>Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1.  Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1.  They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there.  They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED!  They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time!  Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we?  And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand. </p><p>With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement.  I want that back!!!!  I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times.  woohoo....I want to FEAR death!  I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat.  I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding).  That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy!  I miss corpse runs!!!!</p><p>I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing.  How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time.</p><p>Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake.  Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head.  Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group.</p>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:</p><p>Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. </p><p>Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.</p><p>Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..</p><p>There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></blockquote><p>Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different.</p><p>So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore.</p><hr></blockquote><p>How does risk equate to intelligence?   You got me there.  You still have the same quests, new content all the time, crafting still takes some thought.    Being a stupid player will still get you kicked out of groups, death penalty or no death penalty.   How does tedium of shard recoveries make you  a little Einstein? </p><p>I would still love to see a hardcore server implemented for all you hardcore players.  I think this would solve the problem that many of the most vocal people have here on the boards.  To really have a challenge, make it a PvP server with shard runs, 20% experience and equipment loss.  30 min of rez sickness for that extra kick in the butt.  Take out the bird towers.  Who needs them anyway?  Double the price of mounts.  Make the carpet quest obtainable at level 60 and make it a raid only quest.   Oh, and take out all the solo stuff.  Who needs that silly solo stuff anyway or make the experience so trivial that  no one want to fight non heroic mobs.  Bring back the heroic mobs so that you mostly need a full group for everything.   And of course,  slow down the leveling, both adventure and tradeskilling significantly.  When you see that level 70 player running around, you know that player dedicated a significant chuck of his or her life towards that achievement of having the best pixels out there.  /sarcasm off.</p><p>Sorry you all are so unhappy.  I'm having a blast in EQ2 right now.  Probably the most fun I've had in a game.  But then again, I enjoyed WoW so that makes me an idiot too.  Please check out the Vanguard forums.  I think this is the game that many of you are looking for.  Heck, the game sounds like they are looking back at elements of EQ1 for their inspiration.  I think this may scratch the itch that many of you hardcore folks are looking for.  Meanwhile, I'm continuing to play EQ2 and having fun, realizing that it is entertainment and I shouldn't have to dedicate years of my life to feel that sense of accomplishment.</p><p>Sorry to rant again but when people start equating tedium to intelligence, it gets on my nerves.  There are vast numbers of "intelliegent" people playing that other game as well. </p><p>Edit: Must comment on the child of 7 playing the game for 3 months and achieving level 31.  I'm sure there were other legends of that 5 year old, or 6 year old, or 7 year old playing EQ1 and achieving glory as well.   This is an argument that I've seen to bash the "simplicy" of any game when trying to make a point.  A computer savvy kid can play any video game and achieve success folks.  Doesn't matter what the game.  All it takes is time and some computer skills.  I"m sure that there are 7 year olds that could kick your butt on any game. </p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p>Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1.  Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1.  They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there.  They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED!  They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time!  Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we?  And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand. </p><p>With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement.  I want that back!!!!  I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times.  woohoo....I want to FEAR death!  I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat.  I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding).  That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy!  I miss corpse runs!!!!</p><p>I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing.  How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time.</p><p><font color="#ff0033">Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake.  Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head</font>.  Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group.</p><hr></blockquote>That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..

[Scottishla]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr><p>You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:</p><p>Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through.  This isn't death risk.  This is pure and simple boring monotony.  I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement.</font></p><p>Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">And after you've gotten all the updates?  You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement?  Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK.</font></p><p>Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">We do this all the time.  If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point.  If that named mob kills you, where is the risk?  You revive, and try it again.  No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about.</font></p><p>There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it.  I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1.  So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p>

[Flor]

<div>Vanguard FTW Scottishlass................:smileywink:</div><div> </div><div>Register and start checking out their forums.  I think that beta invites will be going out soon.  There are many discussions going on about making the game very challenging.  I would voice your opinion and perhaps hearing from enough bored former EQ1 players (there seem to be many over there), the game may evolve into exactly what you are looking for.</div>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr><p>You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:</p><p>Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through.  This isn't death risk.  This is pure and simple boring monotony.  I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement.</font></p><p>Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">And after you've gotten all the updates?  You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement?  Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK.</font></p><p>Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">We do this all the time.  If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point.  If that named mob kills you, where is the risk?  You revive, and try it again.  No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about.</font></p><p>There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it.  I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1.  So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating.</font></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Then Don't MMO /shrug..</p><p>and to me.. taking a chance on dying is a risk whether you have to go get your corpse or revive.. there are different levels of risk and it isn't ALL based on shard recovery..that was MY POINT!!!</p><p>And I did say those were just a "Few" examples.. not ALL possible available risk taking situations.. enjoy!!</p><p> </p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><div></div><p>Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet!  One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think?  I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed. </p><p>Here is what I mean.  I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me.  It captivated me.  It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon.  For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else.  I felt one with my main character.  That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound. </p><p>In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge.  No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing?</p><p>Message Edited by Scottishlass on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><blockquote><font color="#cc3300">That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..</font></blockquote><p>Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly.  It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it.  In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points.  You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away).  If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak).  One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place.  Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon.  That was a cool necro feature.</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet!  One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think?  I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed. </p><p>Here is what I mean.  I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me.  It captivated me.  It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon.  For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else.  I felt one with my main character.  That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound. </p><p>In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge.  No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing?</p><p>Message Edited by Scottishlass on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Good points here.  But don't you think that we all are jaded by our first MMORPG experience?  My husband and I played AC1 for about 3 years.  The game was immersive and captivated us for years.   I still recall loading up AC1 and seeing my first player running around and realizing that this was a live player who I could interact with.  I remember being a little level 2 or something newbie and some other player inviting me to go to the Direlands and laughing at me as he ran off.  I really loved AC1 and no other game has really captured that first MMORPG magic for me.  I doubt that any other games will do so either.  There were many of the "remember that time when we" for me in AC1.  Athough there have been some of those moment for me in other games I've played, no game has rekindled that magic for me.  I still love many of the MMORPGs that I've played but AC1 holds that special place in my heart.   EQ2 btw had some of the "remember when" moments for me when I played it at launch.   They were not positive "remember that time when we..." moments.  Those negative moments for me where  shard runs when the game first came out and I was stuck with three difficult to recover shards.  There was no pulse racing moments for me.  Just a deep sense of frustration and time spent looking at the clock wondering how long it would take me to recover my shard and when I could go to bed.</p><p>There is really no perfect answer.  Your idea of fun may not be others idea of fun.  We all play games for different reasons and what does it for me may not do it for me.   I feel a bit sorry for the EQ1 players who have been so disappointed in EQ2.  Similar what I felt when I played AC2--what a let down for me. </p><p>I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out in the future.  I hope that games are diverse enough that they can appeal to all types of crowds.  Although I so loved AC1, I could never go back to it.  I burned out and my interests have moved on.  But I my hubby and I still chat about AC1 and how much fun we had.</p>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><blockquote><font color="#cc3300">That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..</font></blockquote><p>Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly.  It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it.  In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points.  You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away).  If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak).  One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place.  Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon.  That was a cool necro feature.</p><hr></blockquote>Yea I played EQ1 for 3 years.. Corpse dragging was pretty much a necessity.. and I also knew no on ethat did not hvae a hotkey setup..

[Scottishla]

<div></div><p>You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1.  However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor.  That is one assumption I should have never made.</p><p>I understand it's a different game.  But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.</p>

[Ildarus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p>You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1.  However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor.  That is one assumption I should have never made.</p><p>I understand it's a different game.  But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.</p><hr></blockquote>Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:

[Tro]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Ildarus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p>You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1.  However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor.  That is one assumption I should have never made.</p><p>I understand it's a different game.  But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.</p><hr></blockquote>Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw <font color="#ff0066">it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination</font>. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:<hr></blockquote><p>Actually it is a sequal.. Die hard 2, Halloween 2, Everquest 2.</p><p>It has the same name.. and we all know Sequals are never exactly like the original so how can you say it isn't a sequal?</p><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class="date_text">03-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:57 AM</span></p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ildarus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p>You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1.  However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor.  That is one assumption I should have never made.</p><p>I understand it's a different game.  But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.</p><hr></blockquote>Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:<hr></blockquote><p>I never said that I expected the exact same game.  What I said was that I expected the same "immersion/thrill level as its predecessor".  As someone who never played the original, it is expected that you would not understand the "dumbing down" that has taken place.  And really you have no way of making a comparison, if you never played the original. </p><p>I,too, am an adult, married with kids.  The difference between the two is really rather simple.  EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years.  EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months.  And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game.  But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about.  Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort.  For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.</p><p>And I do still play EQ1.</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><div align="center"><span><hr size="2" width="100%"></span></div><p><span>Ildarus wrote:</span></p><p><span>Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp</span></p><div align="center"><span><hr size="2" width="100%"></span></div><p><span>Nobody forces you to pick up your shard. You can leave it and it would disappear after a while. And XP debt is recovering automatically in several days. So there was a balance. Is you want to progress fast and you have time you could try to recover your shard. Otherwise it's still not a stop point of the game - your still can progress, but slower. Good deal between xp-oriented players and risk-oriented players.</span></p><p><span>Yes, it was harder to gain XP and next level. Yes, it took me a week to level up to 10. Last weekend I've done it in one day. But I used to respect my achievements and now I just don't care home many levels I gain – it’s so easy now. </span></p><p><span>Here is life example. If you are working hard you respect money you earn and wouldn't go and spend it all in some night club. But if you've got rich parents who are throwing money to you - you don't care about how to spend money, you care only how much can you get more. I think you've got my point here. EQ2 now is out rich rich parent throwing xp to us. I think this is not my lifestyle.</span></p><p><span>I would agree - I don't remember "bright" moments of this game anymore. Everything is plain and boring for me. Lucky I was playing EQ2 before updates to remember how good was it.</span></p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><p>I,too, am an adult, married with kids.  The difference between the two is really rather simple.  EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years.  EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months.  And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game.  But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about.  Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort.  For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm with you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Probably I need to try EQ1 now.</p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<p>I'm with you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Probably I need to try EQ1 now.</p><hr></blockquote>LOL be ready for the long haul.  Took me 5 years to attain level 66 (of course there was some time out to play alts).  But enjoyed every challenging moment of it. 

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<div></div><blockquote>II,too, am an adult, married with kids.  The difference between the two is really rather simple.  EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years.  EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. <font color="#ff0000"> And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game.  But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about.</font>  Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort.  For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.</blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>This is an interesting statement and I would like to comment again.  I too like a community and a virtual world experience.  I think that many are finding that is EQ2  there is a great community, many family oriented or raiding guilds.  And an abundance of things to do.   I still don't see EQ2 as a trivial game as people would like to paint on these boards.  You still have to put in quite a few hours to level.  Even in our guild of pretty hardcore players who are ALWAYS on, people haven't maxed out.  I think that EQ2 will keep their interest for a months or years to come.  Many have been playing the game since launch and are having a super time. These are pretty serious players who played for years in EQ1.    I could play 12 hours a day and probably never run out of things to do.  I play much more than I should anyway and always have something to work on This is one reason why I left WoW.  The game grew very stagnent for me.  It was fun but shallow.</p><p>You can find a community and virtual world in whatever game you play, even games like WoW.   I have to admit WoW drove me nuts with all the kiddos who played it but I found a pretty good guild and made some great online gaming buddies.  In fact, we still keep in touch and are trying to decide on the next game that we will eventually move to together as a team. </p><p> I'm not sure if you are ever going to find a game like EQ1 where it took you years to reach max level.    From what I read, EQ1 was tweaked a bit to make it easier as well, wasn't it?  And lets be realistic, how long did it take to reach max level in EQ1 if you devoted yourself 24 x 7 to the game?  Playing any game non stop and obsessively as some of us do will tend to get you to the max level quickly.  I think that you are reflecting back on the glory days of a game that will never be reincarnated.  Perhaps Vanguard will recapture some of the EQ1 magic and I hope it succeeds.  I think that many EQ1 players will be checking it out.  I would predict that some will be filled with disappointment since I suspect that no game will recapture that EQ1 magic.  Nor the magic of our first MMORPG.</p><p> </p>

[Scottishla]

<div></div><p>I don't want this game, or any other game to be just like EQ1. If that were the case, I would spend more time in EQ1 than I do here.  EQ2 has the potential to even exceed the dream of EQ1, but it has yet to be attained. </p><p>Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game.  The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge.  Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time.  But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge.  I have a journal full of quests I need to complete.  But that doesn't make them challenging.  It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C.  Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really.</p><p>I orignally posted on this thread because I agreed that there needs to be more risk involved.  Without risk/challenge, you get very little feeling of accomplishment when completing a task, avoiding death, conquering a dungeon, etc.  Without risk, it's just another way to "fill my time". </p><p>And I don't mean add more "raid only" content.  That is a huge turn off for me.  I do raid, on occasion with my guild, but for the most part I enjoy the small group commraderie (sp?) and would love to see more doable content for them w/decent rewards.  I hate the fact that in order to obtain the better equipment, you HAVE to raid.  So much for the little man, huh?</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scottishlass wrote:<p>Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game.  The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge.  Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time.  But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge.  I have a journal full of quests I need to complete.  But that doesn't make them challenging.  It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C.  Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really.</p><hr></blockquote><p>thats exactly how I feel myself atm. I still enjoy the game but its not as exciting as it could be.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trook wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.  Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. </div><div> </div><div>The group debt idea was really strong.  However it was implemented badly at first.  Here is how you fix it.  Make it a group option.  If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.*  Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%.  Their penalty is group debt.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:</p><p>Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. </p><p>Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.</p><p>Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..</p><p>There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..</p><hr></blockquote>How is that risk?  Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty.  So no risk,

[DerDrac]

<div></div><p>Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma,  no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me.</p><blockquote><blockquote><hr></blockquote>How is that risk?  Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty.  So no risk,<hr></blockquote>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>DerDrache wrote:<div></div><p>Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma,  no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me.</p><hr><p>I am sorry but all those words lead to that your definition of risk is simply  "not being succesfull" or "wasting your time"</p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Risk</font> should involve <font color="#ffcc00">loosing something</font> not just being <font color="#ffcc00">denied success!</font></p><p>or to leave it to the guys from Saturday Night live:</p><p><font color="#33ccff"><strong>Fighter:</strong> Hey dude, lets try one of the new instances of KoS</font><font color="#99ff99"><font color="#99ff33">Healer: No way, man! I tried some of KoS last weekend and guess what? I wasted my time 4 times in a row.</font></font><font color="#33ccff"><strong>Fighter:</strong> 4 times in a row? Dude, that must have hurt!</font><font color="#33ccff"><font color="#99ff33"><strong>Healer.</strong> Yeah, man. to think i farmed for half a day and than I get my watch handed by that &%$§"! named 4 times. and it wasn't only me. 4 complete group-wastes.</font><strong>Fighter:</strong> So what did you do then?</font><font color="#99ff33"><strong>Healer:</strong> Farmed greens for the rest of the weekend to make up for the lost time. i guess my char isn't for KoS yet. maybe next weekend when I am not under the constant threat of wasting time again, I cant afford more loss right now.</font></p><p>:smileyvery-happy:<font color="#33ccff"> :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:</font></p></blockquote></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk.   For you, losing something equates to risk.  To me, wasting precious hours of my gaming time is risk.  Don't tell me that there aren't consequences for the group when you are far into an instance and your group wipes.  Even in a game like WoW, there were heart pounding moments when you had worked your way down to the bottom of the instance (spending hours in the process) and were at the final room and the battle was a close one.  There definately was risk and consequences if you were the one who wiped the group.  Or through your actions, you didn't do your best and the group failed.  There is risk to every healer trying to keep the group alive.  Or for the tank who is keeping the agro off the soft squishy types and healers.  There is risk for the high DPS classes who are trying to not over nuke and stay alive. Everytime I'm in a group, there is that element of risk present. </p><p>Let's face it, even when there were shards present in the game, the consequence of a death was wasting time trying to get that shard back?   At the very end, it all comes down to wasting time doesn't it?  I think what we are debating is what defines risk for people in a MMORPG.  Time for me is that precious commodity.  Equipment loss and shard runs seems to be that element of risk for you.   We all see the world in different ways.</p><p> </p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk.  </p><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one</p><p>lets put aside "ideas"  for a moment and look at "definition" and according to <a target="_blank" href="http://www.answers.com/"><font color="#3366cc">http://www.Answers.com</font></a> its like this:</p><p><font color="#33ccff"><span class="hw"><strong><font size="5">risk</font></strong></span> <font color="#3399ff"><font color="#3399ff">(</font><span class="pointer"><span class="[Removed for Content]"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="#3399ff">rĭsk</font></span></span>)</font><i>n.</i></font></p><ol><li><font color="#33ccff">The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger. </font></li><li><font color="#33ccff">A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard</font></li><li><font color="#33ccff">(the rest is based on financial terms)</font></li></ol><p>wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:</p><p><font color="#33ccff"></font> </p>

[Fennir]

My time is worth a lot to me.   Losing it may not mean much to some of you who have a lot to spare, but please don't speak for the rest of us.<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk.  </p><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one</p><p>lets put aside "ideas"  for a moment and look at "definition" and according to <a target="_blank" href="http://www.answers.com/"><font color="#3366cc">http://www.Answers.com</font></a> its like this:</p><p><font color="#33ccff"><span class="hw"><strong><font size="5">risk</font></strong></span> <font color="#3399ff"><font color="#3399ff">(</font><span class="pointer"><span class="[Removed for Content]"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="#3399ff">rĭsk</font></span></span>)</font><i>n.</i></font></p><ol><li><font color="#33ccff">The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger. </font></li><li><font color="#33ccff">A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard</font></li><li><font color="#33ccff">(the rest is based on financial terms)</font></li></ol><p>wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:</p><p><font color="#33ccff"></font> </p><p></p><p></p><hr><p>Don't be  twit.   I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you.  Many of <strong><u>us</u></strong> who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument.   Don't speak of things that you know little about .  If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more.   Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate.  Academic enough for you?</p><p>Secondly, by your definition,  a death in its current state in EQ2 meets all definitions of risk that you've outlined above.  A death means suffering harm or loss.  A loss for me is my time.  Loss can be the failure of a mission.  Anytime you adventure there is danger.  Everytime you explore a new place, there is uncertainty.  There is also financial risk in the game.  Everytime you die, there is a durability hit to your equipment meaning it costs you money.  So I argue that EQ2 in current state mets your definitions.  I think what you are doing is trying to impose your idea of risk on me.  As I said, we all have our definitions of what defines risk for us.  It all boils down to opinion in the long run.</p></blockquote>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Don't be  twit.   I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you.  Many of <strong><u>us</u></strong> who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument.   Don't speak of things that you know little about .  If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more.   Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate.  Academic enough for you?</p></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>I attained the Rank of a Corporal in the Austrian army, thvm - but since we didn't invade a foreign country in the last decades and I never had to kill someone this wouldn't count much for you propbably.</p><p>and I happen to know what risk is in game terms or in RL. it always comes down to loosing something I allready earned.</p><p>For your kind  the risk seems to start when you turn on the PC because  it could make you "loose" time......thats pathetic.</p>

[Fennir]

I guess we're lucky what you think matters as much as underwear lint, then. =)<div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:I guess we're lucky what you think matters as much as underwear lint, then. =)<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>On forums one gets used to the fact that most people dont care what others think.</p><p>so that doesnt make you special...... ^_^</p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><p>wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Let me comment on that. See, damage of your armory or whatever is only a very small virtual penalty which doesn't affect you real personality. Usually you can get money pretty easy ( by default even <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) - quests and guild bank can support you. But loosing some of your time, let me even say - part of your life, this is more real risk. The game is designed to be as closer to reality as possible in terms of graphics and physics. Yes it brings you the a fantasy world where you can be whatever you want to be. But if it doesn't linked close to your real life you wouldn't feel your really inside the game. The vertual world isn't alive anymore.</p><p>Risk is a part of our life. We loose something or we gain something. You improve be learning/training yourself to win more than to loose. This is what moves you forward. But let's say if I do not have any risk and win in any case. So what's the reason to progress? I do not see any. In real life or in virtual world - this is all the same.</p><p>So, bring back risk in EQ2!!!!</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>Don't be  twit.   I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you.  Many of <strong><u>us</u></strong> who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument.   Don't speak of things that you know little about .  If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more.   Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate.  Academic enough for you?</p></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>I attained the Rank of a Corporal in the Austrian army, thvm - but since we didn't invade a foreign country in the last decades and I never had to kill someone this wouldn't count much for you propbably.</p><p>and I happen to know what risk is in game terms or in RL. it always comes down to loosing something I allready earned.</p><p>For your kind  the risk seems to start when you turn on the PC because  it could make you "loose" time......thats pathetic.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well glad to know that you served in uniform and are not merely throwing  real life military analogies into the picture to make your point stronger.  One check mark for you.   Also, nice touch with your subtle bashing of the US and  foreign military policies.  Another nice check mark.   Let's get this straight, this is a <strong><u>VIDEO</u></strong> game.  We are not talking real life here.   Real life risk does not equate to a risk in a MMORPG.  There really is no comparison.  This is entertainment, plain and simple.  Not a way of life.</p><p>Getting back to EQ2 and a virtual world, if you think I'm pathetic, go ahead.  I like to have fun.  I'm not risk adverse as you seem to think.  I merely don't care for timesinks such as shard runs.  I really didn't gripe too much when they were in game.  But I sure as heck like them out of the game.  As I've mentioned before, I would never play a game where I could un-ding a level.  My time is precious to me and I am probably risk adverse when it comes to losing experience and feeling as if I was moving backwards instead of forward.  I have played other MMORPGs where you needed to retrieve bodies and have death items and could tolerate it.  I guess it comes down to what level of pain you wish to endure in a game.</p><p> </p>

[Ketinvik]

I wish the game had a setting you could opt for where dying would cause your character to be <b>deleted</b>. THAT is hardcore.  EQ1 didn't do that.  Vanguard won't either.  Nothing less than losing your character and everything you've worked for...for however long you've worked for it entails risk.Of course, no one would ever set the 'ultimate death' setting.  It is too harsh.  But what does that tell us?  It tells us that all the people who call for more 'sting' associated with death just have more time to pay off the debt.You wanna prove to me that you're hardcore?  Start a thread where you list all the characters you've personally created, played, seen die and deleted them for it.  I want to know how you died.  What level, what zone, what were you fighting.The game is what you make of it.  You want hardcore?  I've shown you the way.<div></div>

[Persi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ketinvik wrote:I wish the game had a setting you could opt for where dying would cause your character to be <b>deleted</b>. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Now that would be classic :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assassin on Unrest</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ketinvik wrote:The game is what you make of it. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>No it's not.</p><p>Its what the designers make of it.</p><p>Otherwise no one needed to talk about WoW vs EQ2 - we could just play the one with the graphics we like better and then "make the rest of it"</p><p>PS: if a permadeatch server was introduces in EQ2 I immediately would delete one of my chars to start here (I also play on a Neverwinter Nights permadeath server. if it wasn't for the fact that its player-made and runned with lots of technical issues and a max of 64 characters capacity online I'd play it fulltime :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p> As I've mentioned before, I would never play a game where I could un-ding a level.  My time is precious to me and I am probably risk adverse when it comes to losing experience and feeling as if I was moving backwards instead of forward.  I have played other MMORPGs where you needed to retrieve bodies and have death items and could tolerate it.  I guess it comes down to what level of pain you wish to endure in a game</p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>I am sorry but i simply dont understand the pov. it hasnt got anything to do with pain (masochism? :smileyvery-happy: )</p><p>It's like playing poker with my friends. Of course we do it to have fun and could play for cents but who'd care if we win or loose. of course we dont play to ruin each other, but rasing the stakes means introducing a risk which actually makes our card playing experience better without spoiling the fun.</p><p>the lack of risk as i knew it upon the introduction of EQ2 (and from every other online mmorpg) did lower the stakes to a point that it doesnt matter anymore if i make wrong decisions about whom to group, which mobs to tackle or simply where to go. I can afford to feed AXP on discoveries that literally do kill me but its still a deal.</p><p>but dying never should be a possible deal. atm in EQ2 it is in too many cases.</p>

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><p>wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Let me comment on that. See, damage of your armory or whatever is only a very small virtual penalty which doesn't affect you real personality. Usually you can get money pretty easy ( by default even <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) - quests and guild bank can support you. But loosing some of your time, let me even say - part of your life, this is more real risk. The game is designed to be as closer to reality as possible in terms of graphics and physics. Yes it brings you the a fantasy world where you can be whatever you want to be. But if it doesn't linked close to your real life you wouldn't feel your really inside the game. The vertual world isn't alive anymore.</p><p>Risk is a part of our life. We loose something or we gain something. You improve be learning/training yourself to win more than to loose. This is what moves you forward. But let's say if I do not have any risk and win in any case. So what's the reason to progress? I do not see any. In real life or in virtual world - this is all the same.</p><p>So, bring back risk in EQ2!!!!</p><hr></blockquote>Wait a second. That equates to a timesink then, which many of you have been spouting doesn't equate to risk or difficulty.  If time is a risk, then by all means bring back the shards or something that requires us to spend time.  You actualy don't lose the time you spent before you died.  They don't take away the loot or the exp you got, so it isn't wasted, so I don't see how that equates to risk.

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p> As I've mentioned before, I would never play a game where I could un-ding a level.  My time is precious to me and I am probably risk adverse when it comes to losing experience and feeling as if I was moving backwards instead of forward.  I have played other MMORPGs where you needed to retrieve bodies and have death items and could tolerate it.  I guess it comes down to what level of pain you wish to endure in a game</p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>I am sorry but i simply dont understand the pov. it hasnt got anything to do with pain (masochism? :smileyvery-happy: )</p><p>It's like playing poker with my friends. Of course we do it to have fun and could play for cents but who'd care if we win or loose. of course we dont play to ruin each other, but rasing the stakes means introducing a risk which actually makes our card playing experience better without spoiling the fun.</p><p>the lack of risk as i knew it upon the introduction of EQ2 (and from every other online mmorpg) did lower the stakes to a point that it doesnt matter anymore if i make wrong decisions about whom to group, which mobs to tackle or simply where to go. I can afford to feed AXP on discoveries that literally do kill me but its still a deal.</p><p>but dying never should be a possible deal. atm in EQ2 it is in too many cases.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, obviously we could debate risk until the cows come home.  As I've tried to say multiple times in this thread, risk is different for any players so there is no right answer.  You are trying to force your definition of risk on me and I simply don't agree.  No matter how much you write and I respond, we are not going to change one anothers opinion so it's really a moot point. </p><p> It's kinda funny that we all have different things that we look for in a game.  For you it seems, you like the pulse racing feeling that you have when you could die and you know that the consequences would be severe.  Even a permadeath wouldn't be a big drawback to you from what I've read in another response.  This seems to be what motivates you and brings you great satisfaction in a game.  For me, I like to have fun, adventure with my hubby and guildmates, and keep progressing in a game.  I don't need a severe death penalty to give me that extra rush.  I still get a rush when our group is tackling a really tough mob and doing everything in our power to survive.  A death penalty or lack of death penalty doesn't really matter.  I get my rush from playing the game and trying to play it well.   Even without a severe death penalty, I don't like to die and I certainly don't like to be the person in my group who causes or contributes to the group wipe through my actions.  As I've mentioned before as well, everytime you are in a group, there is risk involved to your reputation if you are a lousy or marginal player.</p><p>I'm really sorry that so many of you all are unhappy with the current state of the game.  There is no right answer here since we all are looking for different things.  Personally, I'm happy and I like the direction the game is going.  But again, I've been called "pathetic" so I guess that I'm not hardcore enough for the "uber" stick in your eye crowd.</p><p> </p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div>@Floria</div><div> </div><div>I still have a hard time about the part that we all can define words as we do see fit. In school, college and university we couldnt get away with "I define it different to you Mr. Teacher" either.</div><div> </div><div>And in the army there was also nothing to deabate about what "duty" or  "loyalty" meant. To imagine I told my Lt. only once "You wont force your definition of <em><strong>Order</strong> </em>upon me,  Sir!" is quite bizarre  and it's not about him being my superior but just about every word is only be interpretable to some extent. if the dictionary, literature or science defines something its not bendable to everyones needs (with the exception of laywers maybe) </div><div> </div><div>But I  could easily settle with that the both of us draw motivation, excitement, fun and the wish to play the best we can from different sources and that everyones entitled to enjoy his or her playstyle. you have the right to say "leave the game as it is", I have the right to say "change the game back to as it was"</div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:51 AM</span></p>

[Drinnon]

<div></div><p>You know Bagira is actually right, but unfortunately it's probably not what was intended.  People do train themselves to win more than lose.  I think you old EQ1 players (Of which I was one from a few days after release to whatever expansion that was that had the plane of knowledge ect in it) are forgetting something.  Maybe it has changed in the last couple years or whatever since I last played it, but for a vast majority of EQ1s life this was the case.  People trained themselves to win.  What did this mean in EQ1?  That, due to the extremely harsh death penalties, people fought stuff that had next to zero chance of killing them.  Does nobody remember this?  The daily unending streams of mobs that would do like 50% damage to your tank, the healer would yawn, cast a complete heal and off the tank would run to pull another no danger mob.  Half the time most of your group was afk or watching TV because the mobs posed so little danger that you might as well not even be there.  Then every 50th or so pull the tank would "over pull" two or three mobs and ho-hum now the cleric had to actually cast more than one or two spells that fight.  If you had a mezzer people would barely look away from their TVs. Keep in mind that this added risk factor was a MISTAKE.  This was danger that people DID NOT WANT.  The only time it was acceptable to die was in a raid.  That was because the penalty to death was actually worth the reward.  Not because it made it exciting, but because you could walk away with something worth the lost time from the death penalty.  This is why they added expansion after expansion of huge raid content and a guild was measured soley on it's raiding abilities.  The xp grind was just something that had to be painstakenly trudged through to get to the "fun" stuff.</p><p>I firmly believe the same would happen if you imposed a harsh death penalty in EQ2.  People would no longer fight mobs with even a moderate chance of death.  Right now, people push the envelope of their skill and abilities to take on the hardest mobs they possibly can to get the best xp possible.  But if every death meant a 2 hour corpse/shard run and 6 hours to recover lost xp then this would no longer be the best xp possible.  We would go into a mind numbing grind mode where it wouldn't really matter much what you did or did not do each fight.</p><p>As for achievements not being worth anything unless there is a risk, that is bologna.  I can't speak for you, but I personally feel achievement when I beat my previous biggist hit.  Did I risk anything by taking a swing at a monster?  No.  When I beat a monster I couldn't beat before.  Reguardless of any penalty for death, I'm talking just the fact that I was able to kill big bad monster X.  Was there risk to this?  Maybe or maybe not, but I still felt achievement even if there wasn't.  (Anyone from EQ1 remember comming back to Gix or Dvinn when you could finally kill them just to return the favor?)  Real world examples?  Painting a picture that turns out better than you think it will.  Was there risk involved in this?  Working hard and getting a promotion.  No risk to being acknowledged for your hard work.  I'm not saying all achievements should come without risk. That would be stupid.  But there are achievements that you can be proud of that did not come with risk.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Drinnon wrote:<div></div><p> (Anyone from EQ1 remember comming back to Gix or Dvinn when you could finally kill them just to return the favor?) </p><hr></blockquote>Every freakin time I had to cross their zones :smileyvery-happy:<p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:12 AM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div>@Floria</div><div> </div><div>I still have a hard time about the part that we all can define words as we do see fit. In school, college and university we couldnt get away with "I define it different to you Mr. Teacher" either.</div><div> </div><div>And in the army there was also nothing to deabate about what "duty" or  "loyalty" meant. To imagine I told my Lt. only once "You wont force your definition of <em><strong>Order</strong> </em>upon me,  Sir!" is quite bizarre  and it's not about him being my superior but just about every word is only be interpretable to some extent. if the dictionary, literature or science defines something its not bendable to everyones needs (with the exception of laywers maybe) </div><div> </div><div>But I  could easily settle with that the both of us draw motivation, excitement, fun and the wish to play the best we can from different sources and that everyones entitled to enjoy his or her playstyle. you have the right to say "leave the game as it is", I have the right to say "change the game back to as it was"</div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:51 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I still think that EQ2 meets the risk criteria that you defined earlier so I don't think that I'm stretching the meaning of a "risk."   Perhaps there is a bit of lawyer in both of us we keep debating our interpretations of risk.  Your example of the Army made me chuckle.   I've been locked in the position of attention by a superior officer too when I dared to disagree with his interpretation of something so I can see your point.  Many times, there was no room for debate on definitions of anything.  But again, this isn't the Army.  It's just a game......:smileywink:</p><p>I think that we should both settle on your last paragraph.  We all draw motivation of fun from different things.  Time will tell as to how this game evolves.  I do hope that the developers get the game into a relatively stable product.  I agree that there have been some pretty significant changes to the game since the game launched.  I am a bit uneasy with SOE making sweeping changes to fundamental game play issues.  So again, I see how some original EQ2 players would be upset and feel a bit betrayed by SOE.</p><p>Anyway, happy gaming and I hope that you find happiness in EQ2 or whatever game you decide to play. </p><p> </p>

[Bagira]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Drinnon wrote:<div></div><p>I firmly believe the same would happen if you imposed a harsh death penalty in EQ2.  People would no longer fight mobs with even a moderate chance of death.  Right now, people push the envelope of their skill and abilities to take on the hardest mobs they possibly can to get the best xp possible.  But if every death meant a 2 hour corpse/shard run and 6 hours to recover lost xp then this would no longer be the best xp possible.  We would go into a mind numbing grind mode where it wouldn't really matter much what you did or did not do each fight.</p><hr></blockquote><p><span>From this point of view you are right. But we are talking here about two opposite sides any of which is bad: over-risk and no-risk. </span></p><p><span>1. Yes, with too much risk most of people wouldn't even try to fight hard-to-kill mobs and spend all time killing average enemies. This means people would be too careful to try out new zones and hard quests. Not good and not interesting for most (no fun).</span></p><p><span>2. But from another side removing all risk does exactly the same, but from another angle. Now people go to any cave, do any quests without even thinking - "does it worth of it?" I mean there is no balance in risk worthiness, to do some quest. I can't tell myself - OK, this is risky, but if I gather a good group, and do everything right, and I win a lot! No, now I can say to myself only - OK, I didn't finished those quests, lets go and try if not then we'll try another time. You see, there is no motivation to choose which quest to do now or later, how to do it, how to prepare. People just run between zone, collect quests and try to finish all quests from list one by one. Just to mark it done and grind some xp.</span></p><p><span>There should be a golden middle. And it was before. Penalty wasn't too painful, but it was motivating you to behave logically, think and learn how to play. Yes, if children were playing this game they were motivated to think and to develop themselves. That was good for everybody. Now it's not.</span></p><p><span>I believe soon people will see degradation of the game in term of community. Because people are not motivated to learn and improve themselves they abilities to be a good team player would go down. Adding more solo context would push it too. Team play will be eliminated because people at most will not have skills to play correctly in a group. So EQ2 will be just an ordinary solo game + chat with other guys. But this is not MMORPG in my understanding. This is Gothic2 + ICQ. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Drinnon]

<div>I agree some additional risk could be added.  Like I was saying before, people do chance risk if it is worth the reward. But it seems Sony has a bit of a problem  1) rewarding people for risk  and  2) not taking things to one extreme or the other.  (Look at what they did with the heroic content for example.  Ok now 90% of the game is heroic.  Groups can go wild.  Oh people want to solo?  Ok now 90% of the game is solo content.  Oh people want some balance? Ok everything above ground is solo and all dungeons are group....)  This is probably what most people against making the game harder are looking at and thinking "heck no!" </div><div> </div><div>If I had any faith that Sony could correctly balance risk vs reward I would be 110% for it, even if it meant a slightly harsher death penalty.  As it stands now, my personal opinion is that being that this is a game and is supposed to be enjoyed by the people that play it, I would rather have it too easy than horribly hard and aggravating. </div>

[Bagira]

<div>Check out "Shards and death penalty POLL " in gameplay discussion section I've created.</div>

[Jai1]

<div>Well, I think I can wrap this one up.  The game risks involve the players decisions.  Whether they are good or bad determines the affect of the decision.  I just spent twice as much on my 66 pet. What can I say I thought it looked like a master book.  Im a visual person, learner.  That is what was affecting my decision. Looked like a master. Kinda pricey, so I ran to get it. I have done this on other occasions but not to this extent.  Buy Rhodium for 3 plat thinking its Vanadium when Rhod was selling for 50g.  Buy spells like Whirlwind for a fury for my Berzerker.  The financial risks are extremely high for me when I log on but I make up for it in good decisions. I bought 7 cobalt for 35g a piece today.  That's kinda a steal Im my mind. OMG! I hope they were ingots! Pretty sure I was lucid before the desire to get a pet master got into my head.</div><div> </div><div>And, I guarentee you with adventuring if a person or group pulls more than they can chew it can bite you. If its the wrong group or dou mix there's some risk. Now if a person groups around RE at 45 it's probably a really easy game for them.</div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jai1 wrote:<div> If its the wrong group or dou mix there's some risk.<hr></div></blockquote><p>dunno. I dont even get angry anymore if halfwits pull like there was no tommorow or cloth classes stroll right into aggro mobs to pick up a "?" and die</p><p>because if they tell me "whats up? i'll be back in half a minute. didnt cost you anything so wheres the problem?" i can only think "you right @hole, you did cost 60 secs of my time cant blame you for anything more although your a complete [Removed for Content]"</p><p>yeah thats the risk, getting xp 1-2% slower then with a good group  - boy, i am so scared <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ketinvik]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bagira wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Drinnon wrote:<div></div><p>I firmly believe the same would happen if you imposed a harsh death penalty in EQ2.  People would no longer fight mobs with even a moderate chance of death.  Right now, people push the envelope of their skill and abilities to take on the hardest mobs they possibly can to get the best xp possible.  But if every death meant a 2 hour corpse/shard run and 6 hours to recover lost xp then this would no longer be the best xp possible.  We would go into a mind numbing grind mode where it wouldn't really matter much what you did or did not do each fight.</p><hr></blockquote><p><span>From this point of view you are right. But we are talking here about two opposite sides any of which is bad: over-risk and no-risk.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ff0000">The problem is that we cannot agree on what defines over-risk.  And that people say no-risk when they mean under-risk.  People come on the forum and say that the death penalty should be changed to something that they consider onerous (but not excessively so) without taking a second to think that their definition of what is too much penalty differs from pretty much everyone else.</font></span></p><p><span>1. Yes, with too much risk most of people wouldn't even try to fight hard-to-kill mobs and spend all time killing average enemies. This means people would be too careful to try out new zones and hard quests. Not good and not interesting for most (no fun).</span></p><p><span>2. But from another side removing all risk does exactly the same, but from another angle. Now people go to any cave, do any quests without even thinking - "does it worth of it?" I mean there is no balance in risk worthiness, to do some quest. I can't tell myself - OK, this is risky, but if I gather a good group, and do everything right, and I win a lot! No, now I can say to myself only - OK, I didn't finished those quests, lets go and try if not then we'll try another time. You see, there is no motivation to choose which quest to do now or later, how to do it, how to prepare. People just run between zone, collect quests and try to finish all quests from list one by one. Just to mark it done and grind some xp.</span></p><p><span>There should be a golden middle. And it was before. Penalty wasn't too painful, but it was motivating you to behave logically, think and learn how to play. Yes, if children were playing this game they were motivated to think and to develop themselves. That was good for everybody. Now it's not.</span></p><p><span><font color="#ff0000">There is a golden middle.  The problem is that you don't think that where we are now is it.  Some people do.  If all the players of this game agreed on every aspect of the game things would be much easier for the devs.  Of course there would be only one tank class, only one DPS class, only one healer class.  Everyone would be outfitted exactly the same and the trails through the overland zones would be canyons from the tread of millions of feet.</font></span></p><p><span>I believe soon people will see degradation of the game in term of community. Because people are not motivated to learn and improve themselves they abilities to be a good team player would go down. Adding more solo context would push it too. Team play will be eliminated because people at most will not have skills to play correctly in a group. So EQ2 will be just an ordinary solo game + chat with other guys. But this is not MMORPG in my understanding. This is Gothic2 + ICQ. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div>I just did a little experiment on google which everyone can check him/herself</div><div> </div><div>first i did put in<font color="#ffcc00"> "risk my life"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">157.000 hits</font></div><div> </div><div>then i tried <font color="#ffcc00">"risk death"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">186.000 hits</font></div><div><font color="#ffcc00"></font> </div><div>last i tried <font color="#ffcc00">"risk my time"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">512 hits</font></div><div><font color="#ffcc00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#ffffff">doesn't this tell us something about a "common" interpretation of the term</font> "risk"? </font></div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:55 PM</span></p>

[bluefish]

<div></div><p>I agree .. there is no more risk in the game .. the game is getting too easy .. and boring ..</p><p>I think personal debt should be increased and shards brought back ..</p><p> </p>

[Maroger]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>bluefish wrote:<div></div><p>I agree .. there is no more risk in the game .. the game is getting too easy .. and boring ..</p><p>I think personal debt should be increased and shards brought back ..</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>You trying to run off a lot of players? What you want and what I want are two different things. If you find the game too easy and boring why not run an area where all the mobs are RED to you and ifhgt and keep dying and see how much penalty you can wrack up -- or go to EQ1 and try raiding the HoH in solo mode -- oh and don't take a rez - just eat the XP loss -- that should provide you with plenty of risk!!!!</p><p>Too bad they took your poll down, Bagira -- but I think things are just fine now. I remember EQ1 all too well to ever want to see something like that again.</p><p>Message Edited by Maroger on <span class="date_text">03-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:40 PM</span></p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote> If you find the game too easy and boring why not run an area where all the mobs are RED to you and ifhgt and keep dying and see how much penalty you can wrack up -- or go to EQ1 and try raiding the HoH in solo mode -- oh and don't take a rez - just eat the XP loss -- that should provide you with plenty of risk!!!!<hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>like a box promoter saying to his best boxer: "you want more challenging fights? then tie your hands behind your back and go insulting someone with a gun!"</p><p>yeah, great advice :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[RoadkillUSA]

Like others have said, If you want more risk go play on the PVP server. You have the same enviroment as PVE with the added risk of getting ganked by a group of other players or is that too much risk?<div></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>I allready started a new toon on a PvP server, tyvm.</div><div> </div><div>but guess what? until you reach lvl 20 you don't even need to leave the city gates.</div><div> </div><div>Since I am an avid quester I have worked my way trough the city newbie zones, then Vermins Snye and started CoB at lvl 22 which means most mobs are still white/yellow. I have a good group atm and I guess I could ding 30 without leaving Qeynos (but I will try SH next weekend nonetheless)</div><div> </div><div>So what do you propose? If dying for 1% XP on mobs was not risky enough for me I should have walked out into Antonica (at lvl 11 or what?) JUST TO GET GANKED?</div><div> </div><div>thats the most stupid advice I ever read on the topic :smileysurprised::smileysurprised::smileysurprised :</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Maroger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote> If you find the game too easy and boring why not run an area where all the mobs are RED to you and ifhgt and keep dying and see how much penalty you can wrack up -- or go to EQ1 and try raiding the HoH in solo mode -- oh and don't take a rez - just eat the XP loss -- that should provide you with plenty of risk!!!!<hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>like a box promoter saying to his best boxer: "you want more challenging fights? then tie your hands behind your back and go insulting someone with a gun!"</p><p>yeah, great advice :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote><p>Obviously you aren't interestedin RISK - I mean I made a suggestion that was pretty risky. But I guess there is limit to the risk you really want so I suggest you just accept the fact that some of us like the current risk and you don't really want much more than that.</p><p>Please don't tell me how much risk I should encounter while playing as you obviously don't want too much either, but just want to talk about it.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div><p>Please don't tell me how much risk I should encounter while playing as you obviously don't want too much either, but just want to talk about it.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I have no intention to tell you how much risk you should encounter,  thats up to you. if you play offline rpgs in god mode i really couldn't care less.</p><p>But someone probably should tell you that every time you enter a zone or attack something  the only risk you take is the XP worth a single white mob.</p><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:52 AM</span></p>

[RoadkillUSA]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div>I allready started a new toon on a PvP server, tyvm.</div><div> </div><div>but guess what? until you reach lvl 20 you don't even need to leave the city gates.</div><div> </div><div>Since I am an avid quester I have worked my way trough the city newbie zones, then Vermins Snye and started CoB at lvl 22 which means most mobs are still white/yellow. I have a good group atm and I guess I could ding 30 without leaving Qeynos (but I will try SH next weekend nonetheless)</div><div> </div><div>So what do you propose? If dying for 1% XP on mobs was not risky enough for me I should have walked out into Antonica (at lvl 11 or what?) JUST TO GET GANKED?</div><div> </div><div>thats the most stupid advice I ever read on the topic :smileysurprised::smileysurprised::smileysurprised :</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Don't know what to suggest to you then. I have a toon over on PVP and I was out in CL around level 11 it was risky and also took some strategy not to get ganked all the time. When I want a risky game I play my toon on PVP, when I want to just have fun I play my toons on PVE, works out great for me. Sorry it doesn't work for you, also just because you didn't like my suggestion does not make it stupid advice.</span></div>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div>I just did a little experiment on google which everyone can check him/herself</div><div> </div><div>first i did put in<font color="#ffcc00"> "risk my life"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">157.000 hits</font></div><div> </div><div>then i tried <font color="#ffcc00">"risk death"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">186.000 hits</font></div><div><font color="#ffcc00"></font> </div><div>last i tried <font color="#ffcc00">"risk my time"</font> which brought <font color="#ffcc00">512 hits</font></div><div><font color="#ffcc00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffcc00"><font color="#ffffff">doesn't this tell us something about a "common" interpretation of the term</font> "risk"? </font></div><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Im confused. Isnt the last interpretation the only thing you can risk in EQ2? When I play I risk neither my life nor do I inadvertantly cause my death if I make an error. Barring some method of having your PC electrocute you when your toon dies, neither of the first 2 apply. Personally I find this whole concept a little amusing. Risk? In a PC game? The only thing I have ever 'risked' in a game (on the PC anyway) is pride and I get over that. The rest is just pixels and numbers on a screen. Would I want permadeath? Probably not as it would be a PITA to have to relevel a character, but I dont really 'risk' anything. The character is not forever gone. Id just reroll. I personally would define risk as taking the chance of losing something of value. To some that is levels, to others that is time and to some that is pixels on the screen. To those deriding those who consider time valuable, all I have to say is you must be single, young,  and probably unemployed. The most valuable commodity in the world is time. Its the only thing we cant make more of... 

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div>I personally would define risk as taking the chance of losing something of value. To some that is levels, to others that is time and to some that is pixels on the screen. To those deriding those who consider time valuable, all I have to say is you must be single, young,  and probably unemployed. The most valuable commodity in the world is time. Its the only thing we cant make more of... <hr></blockquote><p>possibly an amusing pov in a philisophical debate but completely wrong.</p><p>you can only lose things you allready <em><strong>have</strong></em>  and since time can not be earned, accumulated and stored you cant <em><strong>lose</strong></em> it.</p><p>you can spend time or waste time but you cant use it in a poker game to raise the stakes - you simply cannot <em><strong>risk</strong></em> it</p><p> </p><p>if I'd follow you're interpretation I should be excited everytime i turn on the pc because i am about to allready risk my most precious belonging....time???sorry but thats just simple BS.</p>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>possibly an amusing pov in a philisophical debate but completely wrong.</p><p>you can only lose things you allready <em><strong>have</strong></em>  and since time can not be earned, accumulated and stored you cant <em><strong>lose</strong></em> it.</p><p>you can spend time or waste time but you cant use it in a poker game to raise the stakes - you simply cannot <em><strong>risk</strong></em> it</p><p> </p><p>if I'd follow you're interpretation I should be excited everytime i turn on the pc because i am about to allready risk my most precious belonging....time???sorry but thats just simple BS.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Your reasoning is that you can only lose what you already have. Very well, so if everytime you died the game penalized you with 50% debt, that isnt risk, correct? For you are not losing anything you already have, simply reducing your ability to effectively level. So by reading this the only thing that you would consider 'risk' is permadeath or loss of an item, correct? Never going to happen. The risk of losing players is too high, SOE is never going there, the risk is too great.... Neither will any other MMORPG in this day and age, too many options out there.</p><p>As to interpreting, I believe it is you misinterpreting, intentionally Im thinking. I never said that you should be excited because you risk time, I simply pointed out that time has 'value'. As to risking time, I believe I stated earlier in my post..this is a VIDEO game...you risk NOTHING even in the case of permadeath. Its not like SOE will repo your house because your toon dies. No matter the harshness of the penalty there is no real 'risk'.</p><p>As pointed out by others, you will continue to believe what you believe and I will continue to believe what I do. Nothing said on a game based forum is going to change that. So I shall continue to log in and enjoy my entertainment and you can continue to bemoan the loss of risk...oh Im sorry...I forgot, you cant lose what wasnt there in the first place...</p><p>as to this:  <em>time can not be earned, accumulated and stored you cant <strong>lose</strong> it, </em>Im guessing you dont work. I earn 'time' every month and if I dont use it, it accrues (accumulates) and if I quit I lose it....:smileywink:</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div><p>as to this:  <em>time can not be earned, accumulated and stored you cant <strong>lose</strong> it, </em>Im guessing you dont work. I earn 'time' every month and if I dont use it, it accrues (accumulates) and if I quit I lose it....:smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><div>sorry but neither do we earn or loose time at the office or in the factory. otherwise you could prolong your life in working overtime :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>what you're talking about is hopefully not the time you just spent in your office sitting and chatting but the work you did while being there.</div>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div><p>as to this:  <em>time can not be earned, accumulated and stored you cant <strong>lose</strong> it, </em>Im guessing you dont work. I earn 'time' every month and if I dont use it, it accrues (accumulates) and if I quit I lose it....:smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><div>sorry but neither do we earn or loose time at the office or in the factory. otherwise you could prolong your life in working overtime :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>what you're talking about is hopefully not the time you just spent in your office sitting and chatting but the work you did while being there.</div><hr></blockquote>Im not talking about overtime. That is a different form of accrued time. I earn 2 days of vacation time every month and 1 sick day. If I dont use this time in the month, it rolls over and accrues (up to 256 days). Any overtime I earned would be in addition to this time. Again, my point was time has value to some people. You accuse me of arguing semantics, but I also note that you are ignoring 95% of my responses and focusing on one aspect of it.

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div>I allready started a new toon on a PvP server, tyvm.</div><div> </div><div>but guess what? until you reach lvl 20 you don't even need to leave the city gates.</div><div> </div><div>Since I am an avid quester I have worked my way trough the city newbie zones, then Vermins Snye and started CoB at lvl 22 which means most mobs are still white/yellow. I have a good group atm and I guess I could ding 30 without leaving Qeynos (but I will try SH next weekend nonetheless)</div><div> </div><div>So what do you propose? If dying for 1% XP on mobs was not risky enough for me I should have walked out into Antonica (at lvl 11 or what?) JUST TO GET GANKED?</div><div> </div><div>thats the most stupid advice I ever read on the topic :smileysurprised::smileysurprised::smileysurprised :</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>So your agrument is...Put more risk in the game so I can figure out a way to avoid it!?!?!!?!??? 

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tradeskill_Addict wrote:<div>I allready started a new toon on a PvP server, tyvm.</div><div> </div><div>but guess what? until you reach lvl 20 you don't even need to leave the city gates.</div><div> </div><div>Since I am an avid quester I have worked my way trough the city newbie zones, then Vermins Snye and started CoB at lvl 22 which means most mobs are still white/yellow. I have a good group atm and I guess I could ding 30 without leaving Qeynos (but I will try SH next weekend nonetheless)</div><div> </div><div>So what do you propose? If dying for 1% XP on mobs was not risky enough for me I should have walked out into Antonica (at lvl 11 or what?) JUST TO GET GANKED?</div><div> </div><div>thats the most stupid advice I ever read on the topic :smileysurprised::smileysurprised::smileysurprised :</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>So your agrument is...Put more risk in the game so I can figure out a way to avoid it!?!?!!?!??? <hr></blockquote><div>exactly.</div><div> </div><div>i also played Trading Cards Games, MK and Warhammer 40k tournaments in RL for 2 decades . certainly not to enjoy uberness at the local games club tournament against the14-years old   I taught myself to play :smileyvery-happy: but in as highly-ranked tournaments possible.</div><div> </div><div>and the better the competitors the more i had to work on my tactics and the more concentrated i had to play.</div><div> </div><div>if the concept of choosing superior opponents to be forced to improve gameplay sounds bizarre to you.....not my fault i guess</div><div> </div><div>ps: its NOT like rading named ones.</div><div>no matter how often you play in RL you just wont get World Champion unless you are more skilled than everybody else. qnd to get a CHANCE to compete with a champion you have to somehow qualifiy first. time cant earn you evrything <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Oakum]

<div>I have to agree, risk is not here anymore. XP debt can be worked off at about 1 percent every 10 minutes of a normal level appropriate dungeon and you will also get enough loot to pay the repair cost of the armor in a relatively short period of time also unless the RNG just hates you. lol. This is why I think the term risk vs reward does not apply any more.  That is also why I disagree with raids being the only way to get the best equipment. While people may die more on raids then "normal" adventuring, the penalties for it are in no way tough to recover dying. There is at most, neglible risk unless you count the risk of failing to complete the instance and not being allowed back in due to a timer as a risk. The risk is the same for either a raid or a group taking on tough encounters and should have the same reward for the same risk.</div><div> </div><div> If you want to impose real risk on death then PVP fights, from what I read since I dont play on PVP servers, where you actually lose something when dying from your bags is more of a true risk. Also any raid instance should have a penalty of losing an equiped item if we die. That would truly justify making the lvl/quantities of loot higher then non raid areas. Then you would have real risk to justify the reward that raid zones currently give. Then any raider could actually justify why they get better equipment from their adventuring instead of the "smelly stuffs from bulls that you never see until you step into it while walking through a field" reason of its harder (at least the first couple of times they work together possibly) cause there is 4 groups taking orders from one person instead of 5 people.</div><div> </div><div>I played EQ1 for a year and a half and while the corpse runs where a valid death penalty for it, this isn't EQ1 and corpse runs that kept you playing an extra hour while your group went after your corpse or going to PoK to look for someone to summon your corpse when you wanted to be asleep is something I don't miss at all. I did "unding" several times through out my rise to lvl 57 before military duty took me away from eq1 and it made dying just a little more intense until you got enough xp after you lvled not to worry about it anyway. This is not EQ1 though. I chose to go to EQ2 after I returned from my deployment because of all its promises. I was sure it would be sufficiently challenging to keep me entertained while adventuring and tradeskilling. Mostly it has but some things I think have gotten worse and I consider loss of true death penalty (risk) worse. Tradeskills dissappointments are for another forum.</div><div> </div><div> There is a mechanic that the developers have made to remove items from people in PVP. How hard would it be to recode it for PVE. I am not a programmer so I dont know. I do think it would make people feel that dying is much more of a "bad" thing if they knew that if they died they might lose that peice of legendary equip in their bags they were going to put on the broker or save for later. The raiders would actually have a reason to farm raid zones once their tank is equiped too to build up spares since they do die more while learning how to do an instance and would need to replace their lost equipment and they would have justifiable risk to go with their rewards for raiding. Makes perfect sense to me at least.</div><div> </div><div>A person/group does good and doesn't die, they dont risk losing anything, they mess up, then they risk losing something from their bags. The normal high lvl root for a group or person being legendary quality.</div><div> </div><div>Same for a raid but if they screw up and die then they lose an item they have equiped while getting fabled for their high end rewards or even one from bags and equiped if they wanted it to be a real challenge. </div><div> </div><div>Of course any one who one who doenst want real Risk vs Reward, IMO will find a thousand reasons why this wouldnt work and why it would make the game "worse".  After all, I died 4 times last night and the server crashed causing me to log when my group was in the upper lvls of PoA. No big deal. The debt from the first 4 deaths is long gone and the death I am sure I will get when I log in in an hour or so will be gone for sure, a half hour later from killing solo heroic mobs in bonemire doing quests.</div>

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote:<div>I</div><div> There is a mechanic that the developers have made to remove items from people in PVP. How hard would it be to recode it for PVE. I am not a programmer so I dont know. <strong>I do think it would make people feel that dying is much more of a "bad" thing if they knew that if they died they might lose that peice of legendary equip in their bags they were going to put on the broker or save for later. </strong>The raiders would actually have a reason to farm raid zones once their tank is equiped too to build up spares since they do die more while learning how to do an instance and would need to replace their lost equipment and they would have justifiable risk to go with their rewards for raiding. Makes perfect sense to me at least.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>and how long would it be once this occurs for the 'whiners' et al to come streaming to the boards complaining that SOE 'stole' their legendary/fabled XXX and they want to be reimbursed because they died because of lag, mobs in the walls, bad pathing, etc? How long before it got to the point where the group you are in has to stop every so often because some one looted something good and has to go afk and bank it just to make sure they dont lose it to an inadvertent death? Both of these options would create a nightmare. The first for SOE and the second for the playerbase.</p><p>Id also be willing to bet that in PvP the majority carry very little in their bags....</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div>I am not so hot about item destruction/loss at PvE death either.</div><div> </div><div>and regarding PvP its best NOT to travel with empty bags (you'll loot from time to time after all) but to have 16 full stacks of light-weigt vendor trash with you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kaitar]

<div>Gah, spirit shards weren't 'risky' they were just plain ANNOYING. Half the time they got stuck somewhere you couldn't even reach them. You know what most people would do? Either petition a GM that they couldn't get their shards or log out a couple of days and play an alt.</div><div> </div><div>Group exp debt was just ... yeah. Like it's MY fault a team mate ran into a pack of agro while I'm not even near him, and I have to share his debt? No thanks. That discourages grouping. If something discourages grouping that much, no one learns how to work in a party. Everyone makes mistakes. Just because you don't get a ton of exp debt and lose your shards, you don't think that people try not to make the same mistake again and learn from it? Not very good logic. People have another thing called 'pride' and when you screw up, it gets hurt... and human nature is vain. People try to look as good as they can in front of others, and impress them with their skills. The occassional 'idiot' who doesn't? You're going to get that regardless if there's spirit shards or not. The majority of people are going to try to improve anyway.</div><div> </div><div>Games should be FUN to play, first off.  Slap in too much 'risk' (aka time sinks)? Creates too much stress and it becomes just like a job.</div><div> </div><div>Perfect example? FFXI.  People would just literally wig out if they died. Why? because you risk leveling DOWN in that game if you die too often, and even in a best case scenario at higher levels it takes quite a bit of time to get your exp back. That was not fun... that was not a game... that was a chore, made your temper flare at people (maybe the ranger made a bad pull or there was a link that ate your white mage? Guess what, the whole party is screaming at eachother now because someone lost their level) and made you grit your teeth and just get mad for hours at a time. That game has posted official blacklists per server for reasons little more than 'made a bad pull and wiped party' ...imagine. You screw up once? Half the server knows it and refuses to ever group with you.</div><div> </div><div>That is not a game. That's like being at work, getting mad at your co-workers and writing them up for a simple mistake that anyone and everyone makes sometimes.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>You still can die. You still have to repair your items and that costs money. You still get exp debt. You still have to wait around a few minutes for your 'weakness' to wear off after you revive. But guess what? If you wipe... you laugh a bit, shake your head and say 'woah let's not try THAT again' or 'let's try a different plan this time'...probably have to run a ways back to wherever you were, which can be 'risky' in itself at times (Nek Castle for example, or Fallen Gate etc etc) but you still have fun. You don't freak out because your shard is up somewhere on a rock you can't get to and now you're gimped for 3 days if a GM doesn't answer your petition, you don't scream at your party member for making a bad pull and now you all have mega exp debt that'll take a few hours to work off ... you're not afraid to explore places and see new things, maybe try an encounter that's kind of *gasp* risky?</div><div> </div><div>The shards were removed for a reason. People didn't like them. There were complaints all the time about them getting stuck and just being a hassle.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Spirit shards did not equal risk, they just limited you to the amount of risk you were willing to take to begin with. Oh I *could* go try that ^^^ heroic that's only 2 levels lower than me, but if I die then I've got to run back and find my shard, and work off the exp debt on blue and white con boring solo mobs for an hour .... by then I've wasted half my night just because I wanted to try to explore and take a bit of 'risk'.</div><div> </div><div>or now, where you can go try to risk fighting that ^^^ and if you die? Well you died, gotta fix armor now, wait for your sickness to wear off and run back to wherever you were going, but the whole night hasn't taken on a 'grumpy' flavor, eh?</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Well said Kaitar.  A game should be fun and not a way of life.  Your example of FFXI was a good one and that is why I would never play it.  To feel stress like what you described would not be very fun imho.  There is enough real life stress, I don't need that in a game.   In a game with so much risk and severe consequences, you become almost paranoid about making mistakes.  To end up on a blacklist because of one or two mistakes would be a deal breaker.  To play a game constantly paranoid that you could die would be no fun at all for me.   Or to be constantly angry and uptight throughout your gaming time.  Real fun.....</p><p>You make a very good point though and a point that many are missing in this debate.   There is always  an element of pride when playing your character.  People still try to avoid death because you don't want to be in incompetent player that keeps causing group wipes.  The "pride" thing is the what motivates me to be the best player that I can be.  To try to keep my group alive for example when I'm the main healer.  When someone or the group dies, I take that personally and try to do better later.  I don't see how spirit shards or the lack of spirit shards really changes that aspect of trying to be a skilled player.</p>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<p>You make a very good point though and a point that many are missing in this debate.   There is always  an element of pride when playing your character.  People still try to avoid death because you don't want to be in incompetent player that keeps causing group wipes.  The "pride" thing is the what motivates me to be the best player that I can be.  To try to keep my group alive for example when I'm the main healer.  When someone or the group dies, I take that personally and try to do better later.  I don't see how spirit shards or the lack of spirit shards really changes that aspect of trying to be a skilled player.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree on that paragraph, that in a group MY motivation is there with or without death penalty. but unfortunately I happen to group with people who seem to have no pride like- tanks who pull like mad and risk a wipe because "in the long run we make more XP that way"- cloth classes who risk strolling into aggro range of a bystanding mob because " i couldnt resist picking up the ?"- dps classes who ask for a third beating from the same mob because "I just want to try my last weapon combo" </p><p>maybe its different if one only groups with guild mates or RL friends but in pick-up groups people played their class like a clockwork back in shard age while nowadays more and more players dont care about consequences as there aren't.</p>

[Lutefisk]

<div></div><p>Kaitar wrote:</p><p>You still can die. You still have to repair your items and that costs money. You still get exp debt. You still have to wait around a few minutes for your 'weakness' to wear off after you revive. But guess what? If you wipe... you laugh a bit, shake your head and say 'woah let's not try THAT again' or 'let's try a different plan this time'...</p><p>************************************************** **************************</p><p>This is a really good description of the amount of risk one has in dying.  This is the "risk" that supposedly justifies the best equipment coming from raids and adventuring in general rather than crafting. This is the "risk" that children take when they play "war", Cops and Robbers, or other "dangerous" games.  There is far more risk in kiddie soccer.</p><p>Maybe they could scale loot to whatever degree of risk each individual player is willing to take if they die. If I'm willing to go with more personal risk for my death, it only affects you if we group together and you're delayed by my effects (so you get to see my risk profile before we start).  Similarly, if your risk profile is low, then I know that I might get killed more easily because of you.</p><p>So, if we do group together, there would have to be some mechanism for calculating the total risk profile of the group, so that loot could be adjusted accordingly.  We'd still use whatever group looting options the leader chooses.  If I don't like the arrangement or people, either I get to be leader and divide the loot or I leave.  Same for you.  But at least if I'm with a group that takes a lot of risk of dying, we get better rewards, even if we're just casual players out to have a fun, intense experience, than others do with the same encounter. </p><p>This sort of scaling would automatically multiply the effective encounters by several times, depending on the risk profiles and increased loot drops.</p><p> </p>

[RoadkillUSA]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lutefisk wrote:<div></div><p>Kaitar wrote:</p><p>You still can die. You still have to repair your items and that costs money. You still get exp debt. You still have to wait around a few minutes for your 'weakness' to wear off after you revive. But guess what? If you wipe... you laugh a bit, shake your head and say 'woah let's not try THAT again' or 'let's try a different plan this time'...</p><p>************************************************** **************************</p><p>This is a really good description of the amount of risk one has in dying.  This is the "risk" that supposedly justifies the best equipment coming from raids and adventuring in general rather than crafting. This is the "risk" that children take when they play "war", Cops and Robbers, or other "dangerous" games.  There is far more risk in kiddie soccer.</p><p>Maybe they could scale loot to whatever degree of risk each individual player is willing to take if they die. If I'm willing to go with more personal risk for my death, it only affects you if we group together and you're delayed by my effects (so you get to see my risk profile before we start).  Similarly, if your risk profile is low, then I know that I might get killed more easily because of you.</p><p>So, if we do group together, there would have to be some mechanism for calculating the total risk profile of the group, so that loot could be adjusted accordingly.  We'd still use whatever group looting options the leader chooses.  If I don't like the arrangement or people, either I get to be leader and divide the loot or I leave.  Same for you.  But at least if I'm with a group that takes a lot of risk of dying, we get better rewards, even if we're just casual players out to have a fun, intense experience, than others do with the same encounter. </p><p>This sort of scaling would automatically multiply the effective encounters by several times, depending on the risk profiles and increased loot drops.</p><p> </p><hr>Risk vs reward should never be about death or the effects of death. Risk vs reward should be based only on the difficulty of the mob and / or quest.</blockquote></span></div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>RoadkillUSA wrote:<p><span>Risk vs reward should never be about death or the effects of death. Risk vs reward should be based only on the <font color="#ffcc00">difficulty of the mob and / or quest.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>well said.</p><p>So I get killed by a <font color="#ffcc00">lvl 20 (difficulty)mob i need 10 of for a simple writ (reward)</font>, get 10% eqipment dmg, 1,2 % XP debth and loose 2 minutes buffing up and running back (risk)</p><p>If the mob is <font color="#ffcc00">lvl 50 named (difficulty) and I need it for a heritage quest (reward)</font> that means - according to your statement - for the (risk) to be................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .............................? </p>

[Remann]

<div><blockquote><hr>SirHobbs wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>EternallyConfuzzled wrote:<div>>The game needs risk.  Bottom line.</div><div>This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.</div><hr></blockquote>This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2.<p>Message Edited by SirHobbs on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">03-01-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">12:48 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.<hr></div><p>Agreed.  Last thing I want to do after a long day at work is spend my night going after a corpse I left behind. Those who continually reference EQ1 must long for the wasted days and nights going after corpses and are discounting that much of the launch of EQ2 was based on player feedback from EQ1.  I remember the days of going deep in SE after a shard and accumilating debt.  Lazy? I say no, back then most pickup groups I came across didn't work to well together.  There was always the one person that just had to rush his or her way through and therefore create more debt, or the person that would or could not stay with the group.  Shard runs were and are a waste of my time and money.</p><p>Those who say there isn't risk, haven't spent to much time in raid zones or high end instances.  Cost of repairs for fabled is greater than legendary at any tier. My guardians repairs range from 10g to 12g per repair atm.  That doesn't include the cost of repairing my Tower Shields after challenging high end Heroic and Epic mobs.  I don't have to die to have high repair costs.  As others have already stated go find your challenge, fight yellow, orange or red mobs and then say you haven't been challenged.  If you haven't been to KoS yet take a trip there and try to run off a mob.  Only one way in most instances to run off a mob and that is a nose dive over the edge of the island.</p>

[Remann]

<div><hr><p>You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:</p><p>Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through.  This isn't death risk.  This is pure and simple boring monotony.  I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement.</font></p><p>Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">And after you've gotten all the updates?  You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement?  Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK.</font></p><p>Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">We do this all the time.  If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point.  If that named mob kills you, where is the risk?  You revive, and try it again.  No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about.</font></p><p>There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it.  I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1.  So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating.</font></p><hr></div><div>The is one other thing you can do.. Unsubscribe!</div>

[Tradeskill_Addict]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Remann wrote:<div> </div><div>The is one other thing you can do.. Unsubscribe!</div><p></p><p></p><hr><p>to some of us it may be worth rasing our voice in hope of a change for the better - instead of just giving up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p></p></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:02 PM</span></p>