Summoner Tank Pet Aggro Bug Test Observations

[Deila]

<div></div><div></div><div>Collected here are my observations thusfar surrounding the problems with tank pets holding aggro reported by Summoners.</div><div> </div><div><strong><font size="4">Description of Problem / Bug:</font></strong></div><div> </div><div>Summoner 'tank' pets are not holding aggro the way they were prior to the LU20 / KoS patch release.</div><div> </div><div><font size="4"><strong>Symptoms:</strong></font></div><div> </div><div>Single target mobs are leaving the pet to attack the Summoner, often before the player has cast a spell or done anything that is known to generate hate. Linked mobs not specifically targeted by the pet frequently run towards the pet, but leave immediately after reaching it to attack the Summoner instead. Linked mobs not directly targeted by the Summoner's single-target spells frequently shift hate to the Summoner from the pet, even after having engaged and/or being taunted by the pet.</div><div> </div><div>Note however that at times, combat appears to go normally, with the pet holding aggro well.</div><div> </div><div><strong><font size="4">Observations:</font></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong>Pet Taunts:</strong></div><div>After numerous tests, pet taunting, or effectiveness of pet taunts, does not <em>appear</em> to be the core of the problem. Checking combat spam after encounters, I've seen that my pet is indeed using his single-target taunt attack, and have verified visually (Graven Scream, the AE taunt attack, does not appear in combat spam for some reason) that he is using his AE taunt occasionally, although pet CA use appears to be random from encounter to encounter. Whether or not the hate from those taunts is being applied correctly to mobs is beyond my ability to measure, not having any form of hate meter as such. However, mobs will sometimes turn to the pet after being taunted (single-target or AE) as expected, sometimes most will, other times no change - <em>whether or not the Summoner has cast any spell or done any hostile action during the encounter at all</em>.</div><div> </div><div>This behavior could be explained another way though.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Mysterious Aggro for the Summoner?</strong></div><div>My observations have led me thusfar to believe that Summoners are somehow getting hate gains from some unknown source. This explanation, I feel, better fits the model of behavior than placing cause on pet taunt ability.</div><div> </div><div>Post LU20, a 'normal' opening with an encounter of linked mobs works like this - send pet against one target in the group. All mobs of that group run at the pet (initial aggro from the pull - even without taunting, that initial aggro has been established). However, once the linked mobs not targeted by the pet reach the pet, they immediately turn and rush the Summoner, whether the Summoner has taken any hostile action or not.</div><div> </div><div>In testing, I've also observed cases where my pet will have aggro for some time on one or more mobs, and without my having taken any actions throughout the encounter, one or more of those mobs will suddenly decide to turn to attack me instead. This occurs even after single or AE taunts have been used, as well as pet CAs and auto attacks.</div><div> </div><div>What is causing that shift in hate?</div><div> </div><div>In my mind, it can't just be taunts failing, as it occurs even if the Summoner takes no action. Had the Summoner cast spells, attacked, healed, or done <em>something</em> that we know generates hate, then we could presume that the taunt was not strong enough (or not present/successful) to outweigh the hate gain of the Summoner's actions, therefore seeing a shift in hate. If the Summoner does nothing other than send the pet during an encounter, and the mobs change him/her to their priority on the hate list (and at various points during the encounter), hate is coming from somewhere. Or, the way that mobs are evaluating their hate lists has gone bonkers.</div><div> </div><div>Whichever way it is - something is making the Summoner a top priority on mob hate lists, above and beyond their spellcasting or attacks. The few times that combats appear to be going normally (pre-LU20 'normal') seem to be times that the pet has randomly chosen enough taunting CAs that were not blocked, parried or resisted, and/or done significant enough damage, to stay ahead of whatever mystery hate is going to the Summoner. I feel that this scenario - even though I can't positively identify the erroneous source of this 'mystery hate' - explains more closely the symptoms we're seeing in the problems with tank pet aggro than taunting issues alone.</div><div> </div><div><font size="4"><strong>Edit - Addendum</strong></font></div><div> </div><div>Another thought occured to me while testing this further, after the initial post, and also fits the observations.</div><div> </div><div>What if parts of some of the pet CA's components somehow got hate modifier values switched, from positive to negative? If, for example, an AE attack/taunt had the damage portion of it doing positive hate for the pet, but the taunt portion was doing negative hate accidentally, the pet's targeted mob would likely stay on the pet, as the damage done previously could keep him above the line with hate for that mob. Other linked mobs, however, would have negative hate towards him, thus placing the Summoner who has done nothing during the encounter and is at even neutral hate, higher on the hate list than the pet. This possibility also fits the observations, almost perfectly. Again, smarter people with access to the code would have to find out for sure, but I offer that up as another possibility.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Next post - methodology and various other observations from my testing</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Deila on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:42 PM</span></p>

[Deila]

<div></div><div><strong><font size="4">Testing Methodology and Parameters:</font></strong></div><div> </div><div>Testing has been conducted as a 41 Necromancer, on the Test server, using Rotting Thrall at adept III quality. Both Grisly Brace (level 28 pet defensive stance, master II) and Words of the Wicked (level 39 pet offensive stance, adept I) were tested, with no obvious performance difference regarding the aggro issue. Kingdom of Sky has been installed and is active. Possess Minion Achievement ability was purchased, and was used to view pet and pet CA details.</div><div> </div><div>Most tests were done by soloing a variety of opponents, both single solo mobs and linked groups, noting whether or not there were problems with the pet holding aggro and at what point during the combat it occured, followed by post-combat analysis of the combat spam chat entries to look at pet's auto attack and CA use throughout the combat. Tests were split between using spells as I normally would previous to this issue, both in spell selection, timing and order of operations, and not casting any spells or taking hostile action whatsoever.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Mobs tested against:</strong></div><div><em><strong>Feerrott:</strong></em></div><div>Muck dregs, 37vv solo, groups of 3 linked (blue con)</div><div>Muck dregs, 36v heroic with 3 additional 36vv heroics linked (green con)</div><div>Bitter bloom, 38v solo (blue con)</div><div><em><strong>Everfrost:</strong></em></div><div>Ice Wolf, 42v solo (yellow con)</div><div>Ice Wolf, 42v solo with two 42vv linked ice wolf pups (yellow con)</div><div>Bitterwind Explorers and Pioneers, 45v solo (yellow con)</div><div> </div><div><strong><font size="4">General Observations</font></strong></div><div> </div><div><strong>Pet Specs</strong></div><div>My adept III Rotting Thrall is a Berserker, as shown in the Persona window while using Possess Minion, and his CAs seem to match that profile regarding aggro generation. Pet CAs are Graven Breath (55 damage disease DoT with stifle component), Graven Frenzy (a triple-attack, one attack misses the rest miss, with added root component), Graven Scream (5 meter radius AE encounter root and 491-819 threat increase), and Graven Strike (491-819 threat increase, 58-98 disease direct damage with 20 disease DoT component).</div><div> </div><div><strong>Pet CA Use</strong></div><div>Pet seems to use his CAs randomly in any given encounter, according to my combat spam observations. Some fights he'd use a balanced mix of CAs, other fights he'd favor the stifle/root arts more, still others he'd use several taunt attacks or several pure damage attacks. CAs were used frequently though, and only rarely did he elect to just auto attack.</div><div> </div><div>I could only gauge his use of Graven Scream (AE taunt/root) visually, however, as Graven Scream does not appear in the combat spam for some reason. Graven Scream can be seen visually as all mobs in the encounter and within range tinting red momentarily. Again though - his use of Graven Scream seemed randomly drawn - some fights he'd use it well, many others he chose not to use it at all.</div><div> </div><div><div>Note that Graven Strike, the single-target taunting attack, is indeed an attack which can miss, or be blocked or parried (verified through combat spam). It is unknown at this time if Graven Scream (AE taunt) behaves more as an attack which can miss/blocked/parried, or a spell which can be resisted, due to the lack of listing in combat spam.</div></div><div> </div><div>Due to these observations, I have abandoned my earlier assumptions that the aggro problems we're experiencing with tank pets is due to pets simply not taunting. They <em>are</em> taunting (some of the time, randomly) - what is difficult to tell is if those taunts are affecting the mob's hate lists in any way.</div><div> </div><div><strong>Pet Aggro Generation</strong></div><div>Now that we have Posess Minion and can look at such things, it appears to me that tank pet aggro generation is designed to be through a combination of taunting attacks (Graven Scream and Strike) and attack damage (Graven Frenzy, auto-attack), with either of the two stances adding to that in their own way (defensive stance with a percentage of increased Hate Gain, offensive through added damage via haste and proc damage) - which would be in-line with their Berserker designation. Both attack damage and taunt threat gains appear to contribute to the pet's ability to maintain aggro - in testing, several times that the pet held aggro well, he had not used any of his taunt attacks, instead landing several damaging CAs and auto attacks, Grisly Feedback (essentially a damage shield, from the defensive stance).</div>

[HaCkHaCkER]

<div></div><p>im not 100% sure aobut where this idea comes from,</p><p>i, being a 58 conj, have plenty of experience with my tank pet, and being i mainly soloed all the way to lvl 46 i had no issues with tank pet holding aggro at all.  infact today running around TT and scaleborne my pet was playing MT in the group every once in a while. </p><p>while duoing with a lvl 60 SK i had no aggro issues at all, who ever started the fight would hold aggro through the fight.</p><p>now solo, fighting the lvl 56-59 ^ and the no arrow mobs single or grouped i did not have to worry about pulling aggro from my pet as long as i applied all buffs, and my one damage shield.  my pet would hold aggro through the entire fight.  my pet would taunt as normal and hold aggro as normal as well.  as soon as i dinged 58 i had upgraded my 50ish defense stance to ad3 and aggro control became even easier.</p><p>so i think it might be about play style, as long as you allow your pet to gain aggro you should be fine.</p><p> </p><p>my tactic i use</p><p>in single mob fights1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet3.  cast swarm pets, water and fire4.  cast DD5.  then cast your encounter AoEs6.  then just repeatedly use DD, and DD stun untill dead</p><p>in multi mob fights it is essentially the same thing with a few exceptions1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet on weakest mob3.  then sick pet on strongest mob4.  then cast swarms on strongestby this time the pet should have aggro completly under control.at this point you decide how you want to handle the rest of the fight burn each mob your tank is attacking or burn the mobs your tank is not attacking. if you choose to burn the mob your pet is not attacking then you will stand the chance of yoinking(technical term) aggro.  but depending on how fast you can burn him it might be a good idea.</p><p>while using the posses minion is a good way to pull a mob back to you it is not a good way to manage and maintain aggro.  the pet drops the spells much faster than we can it seems.  also with the pet as your controll you cannot cast your damage shield or your swarms to help control the aggro</p><p> </p><p>just my thoughts</p>

[elbo]

<div></div>i'm a conjuror noob in this game but i my conjuror is a lvl 16 and  what you are explaining  as a bug  is what i have always expeience before lu 19 i manage to get control by rooting the mob if it was single no luck with group alway loose for me as a conjurer noob i realy beive that was a problem with me but afther readind the post in this tread i think i was wrong but again as a noob it may be the game mechanics BTw all my gear is treasure my pet s adept 3 lvl 14 but modst of my spells are appt 4 or worst again i will take my conj out more and do more test with it but what you have describe happen to me all the time...i hope this shred some light in this issue since my toon is a low lvl toon

[katalmach]

<div>First of all, thank you Deila for taking the time to compile this information about this bug. It's been disrupting my gameplay immensly, and I hope that it will be sorted out soon.</div><div> </div><div></div><blockquote><hr>HaCkHaCkER wrote:<div></div><p>im not 100% sure aobut where this idea comes from,</p><p>i, being a 58 conj, have plenty of experience with my tank pet, and being i mainly soloed all the way to lvl 46 i had no issues with tank pet holding aggro at all.  infact today running around TT and scaleborne my pet was playing MT in the group every once in a while. </p><p>while duoing with a lvl 60 SK i had no aggro issues at all, who ever started the fight would hold aggro through the fight.</p><p>now solo, fighting the lvl 56-59 ^ and the no arrow mobs single or grouped i did not have to worry about pulling aggro from my pet as long as i applied all buffs, and my one damage shield.  my pet would hold aggro through the entire fight.  my pet would taunt as normal and hold aggro as normal as well.  as soon as i dinged 58 i had upgraded my 50ish defense stance to ad3 and aggro control became even easier.</p><p>so i think it might be about play style, as long as you allow your pet to gain aggro you should be fine.</p><p> </p><p>my tactic i use</p><p>in single mob fights1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet3.  cast swarm pets, water and fire4.  cast DD5.  then cast your encounter AoEs6.  then just repeatedly use DD, and DD stun untill dead</p><p>in multi mob fights it is essentially the same thing with a few exceptions1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet on weakest mob3.  then sick pet on strongest mob4.  then cast swarms on strongestby this time the pet should have aggro completly under control.at this point you decide how you want to handle the rest of the fight burn each mob your tank is attacking or burn the mobs your tank is not attacking. if you choose to burn the mob your pet is not attacking then you will stand the chance of yoinking(technical term) aggro.  but depending on how fast you can burn him it might be a good idea.</p><p>while using the posses minion is a good way to pull a mob back to you it is not a good way to manage and maintain aggro.  the pet drops the spells much faster than we can it seems.  also with the pet as your controll you cannot cast your damage shield or your swarms to help control the aggro</p><p> </p><p>just my thoughts</p><hr></blockquote><div>Ok, well, Hack - here's my thoughts. Maybe it is so that the "play style" of hundreds of necromancers changed overnight, and with the release of KoS we all of a sudden suck - simply because we changed our playstyle. All the hundreds of us. At the same time. Yes, after over a year's experience of playing a necro, we all just changed our playstyle and now we are all really crappy players.</div><div>OR something changed with the update and now our pets don't keep aggro as well anymore. I mean, think about it, which is most likely? Change with update, or change in the collective mind and playstyle of necros around the globe?</div><div> </div><div>Telling us to "allow the pet to gain aggro" does NOT help. If you'd read Deila's post, you'd know that necros now often get aggro without doing anything at all, during the entire fight. Apart from not casting a single hostile spell, and keeping all buffs on our pet, what else exactly do you suggest we could do to allow the pet gain aggro? </div><div>Well, actually - I found a surefire way of letting my pet grab aggro yesterday. I sent my pet in on three grouped solo mobs. Two of them went for me immediately, and beat me until I was unconcious on the floor. THEN the pet - gasp - grabbed aggro! So I guess that's the change in playstyle us necros must adapt - pull, die, hope pet manages to kill mobs on his own before you've bled to death. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>This isn't an IDEA we've got into our heads - this is an actual issue with pets. I have duoed/soloed my way to level 60 as a necro, and there was most certainly a change with KoS/update 20. It is entirely possible that conjurors are not affected - I wouldn't know. But please don't post in a thread about necro problems, trying to pass off a huge problem for our class as a fault in our "playstyle". We want this to get noticed and fixed.. not swept under the carpet. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Benboe]

Heyhey,aggro issues for Conj / Necro can in a solo Situation hardly be compared. Conjs. get 2 DMG shields (Blazing presence and another, weaker one) that proc whenever the tank pet is hit - Necros lack this ability.But there are more bugs in the pet system atm then just taunts. Try going into Sanctum of the scaleborn with a group and fight for sometime. U wil notice that various "old" bugs returned - be it the stuck in combat bug (until u relealse the pet) or the "pet attack but it is not moving until u click 3 or 4 or 5 times" bug.Other then that I have found none so far.Oovaan, 63 Necromancer, Runnyeye <div></div>

[Anlari]

<div></div>The biggest problem right now, is that as soon as the pet attacks a group, the group runs and attacks the caster.  There is no taunting.  I agree, something has changed drasticly since LU20.  I group regularly with a necro and her pet is always tank and we haver had to work a whole lot harder and "bounce" agro between us now since her pet just can not hold agro.

[christmascracker]

<div></div>I can confirm that this applies to Conjuror as well as Necro pets - I've been having the exact same thing happen with  my tank pet. Before LU20 everything was working as it should, since then I get agro when I havent even started to cast any spells. Send in pet to attack and I can guarantee that the other mobs in the group will come straight for me.

[Thay]

<div></div>I tried an experiment yesterday and this morning with my 58 Necro.I went to TT and tried 5 fights (granted this is not a large number, but enough to satisfy my curiosity)All 5 were against the groups of 2 blue down arrow, NON heroic scaleborn sentries.Send pet inpet hits mobmobs completely ignore pet and bum rush meI die 5 out of 5 times <span>:smileysad:</span>so much for a hotfix <span>:smileymad:Edited to add:As a 50+ ranger and 58 necro, my gaming enjoyment has taken a major turn for the worse so I deleted the toons. Hope they fix you guys soon, cause it's a great game when they aren't nerfing u to oblivion</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Testicleese on <span class="date_text">02-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:13 AM</span></p>

[HaCkHaCkER]

<div>ok fisrtoff i wasnt saying it wasnt an isue i was just saying that i was not experiencing it and explaining my play style.</div><div> </div><div>one thing i have notice in TT is that the mobs are a lot more social now, meaning they call for help.  the mobs that are called in for help ignore the pet and go to you, that is normal.</div><div> </div><div>now since this thread is only about necros, i will roll a necro on test and see if i can recreate this issue, and post my results here.</div>

[Uanelven]

<div></div><div>I can confirm this is happening quite a bit actually ie,  Mobs jumping on me without interferance.   Haven't seen it in the new zones yet myself just in places and situations where he would hold agro like a champ vs multi-mobs.</div><div> </div><div>Not playstyle , not anything other than something has gone amiss.</div>

[Obadiah]

<div></div><p>/agree</p><p>This is awful.  Solo mobs seem OK, but the same mobs that I was facing last week will result in exactly what is described above.</p><p>It has nothing to do with mobs being social, it's all in the same encounter. It has nothing to do with playstyle.</p><p>I can usually survive now against blue con 3-mob solo encounters by rooting 1, and having the pet target the #2. #3 will attack me until I have the pet switch to it and give the pet time to taunt. Then I have to be careful not to damage #2 much or it will come back to me, so no encounter AE or anything. Once #2 is dead I can switch to #2 (being sure to cast root on #1 as often as needed). It takes a long time and a lot of power and is absolutely no fun whatsoever.</p><p>Necromancer is a group only class at the moment. The group taunt for Necro tank pets just doesn't work.</p>

[Taninga]

<div>It's nothing to do with play style and i sincerely hope its a bug and not a stealth nerf...</div><div> </div><div>I've played a conj almost since day 1 and i was speaking to a necro who also has and we noticed this problem started a couple of days back (Runnyeye server so probably a day out of date)... its still possible to do everything you can before but man does it get nasty sometimes (and not really through any fault of your own)</div>

[Thay]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Taningard wrote:<div><u><b>It's nothing to do with play style and i sincerely hope its a bug and not a stealth nerf...</b></u></div><div> </div><div>I've played a conj almost since day 1 and i was speaking to a necro who also has and we noticed this problem started a couple of days back (Runnyeye server so probably a day out of date)... its still possible to do everything you can before but man does it get nasty sometimes (and not really through any fault of your own)</div><hr></blockquote>Concur.Blue down arrow scalebornes. group of 2 SOLO. Send in pet. pet attacks. both mobs beelined it to me repeatedly, ignoring pet.Something else I noticed was my pet refused to attack mobs even though I was on the same plane of the Z axis with them. I got the message "you send your pet in to  attack", but he stood there and did nothing.</span></div>

[Tro]

<div></div><div>I dont have time to read the whole thread and apologize if this has been discuissed but I wonder if the hate from the damage shields is somehow being transferred to the caster instead of the pet?</div><div> </div><div>has anyone sent the pet in with no buffs (Except the Defensive Stance) and then added one damage shield at a time to see if that answers some questions?</div><div> </div><div>Just a thought..</div><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:14 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HaCkHaCkER wrote:<div></div><p>im not 100% sure aobut where this idea comes from,</p><p>i, being a 58 conj, have plenty of experience with my tank pet, and being i mainly soloed all the way to lvl 46 i had no issues with tank pet holding aggro at all.  infact today running around TT and scaleborne my pet was playing MT in the group every once in a while. </p><p>while duoing with a lvl 60 SK i had no aggro issues at all, who ever started the fight would hold aggro through the fight.</p><p>now solo, fighting the lvl 56-59 ^ and the no arrow mobs single or grouped i did not have to worry about pulling aggro from my pet as long as i applied all buffs, and my one damage shield.  my pet would hold aggro through the entire fight.  my pet would taunt as normal and hold aggro as normal as well.  as soon as i dinged 58 i had upgraded my 50ish defense stance to ad3 and aggro control became even easier.</p><p>so i think it might be about play style, as long as you allow your pet to gain aggro you should be fine.</p><p> </p><p>my tactic i use</p><p>in single mob fights1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet3.  cast swarm pets, water and fire4.  cast DD5.  then cast your encounter AoEs6.  then just repeatedly use DD, and DD stun untill dead</p><p>in multi mob fights it is essentially the same thing with a few exceptions1.  apply damage shield2.  sick pet on weakest mob3.  then sick pet on strongest mob4.  then cast swarms on strongestby this time the pet should have aggro completly under control.at this point you decide how you want to handle the rest of the fight burn each mob your tank is attacking or burn the mobs your tank is not attacking. if you choose to burn the mob your pet is not attacking then you will stand the chance of yoinking(technical term) aggro.  but depending on how fast you can burn him it might be a good idea.</p><p>while using the posses minion is a good way to pull a mob back to you it is not a good way to manage and maintain aggro.  the pet drops the spells much faster than we can it seems.  also with the pet as your controll you cannot cast your damage shield or your swarms to help control the aggro</p><p> </p><p>just my thoughts</p><hr></blockquote><p>No offense, but you are not a necro one, so maybe conj are not facing the same issue.</p><p>And some of us have been playing...um..ya know...up till now, so I think we have our tactics set and are aware enough to know when something changes.</p><p>All of our tactics did not change with LU20, the taunts were broken.</p><p>But thanks for the summoner 101 lesson.</p>