Can any DEV please give us some info about the Ranger class now after nerf, we need answers !!

[Falcu]

<div></div><div>Hi,</div><div>Can any DEV please give us some answers to all the speculations about the Rangers dsp now, seems like the dps is going to be cut with 40-50% with the new proc changes AND THATS SICK, would destroy the class. Would be almost impossible to solo anymore.</div><div> </div><div>If this class should surive this patch, we need to do something now. Please give us some hope about the rangers ? and some answers from the staff !</div><div> </div><div>We should be in tier 1 dps right ? i agree that our dmg need to lower some, but not 40-50% <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div>Falcula</div>

[koinor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Falcula wrote:<div></div><div>Hi,</div><div>Can any DEV please give us some answers to all the speculations about the Rangers dsp now, seems like the dps is going to be cut with 40-50% with the new proc changes AND THATS SICK, would destroy the class. <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Would be almost impossible to solo anymore.</strong></font></div><div> </div><div>If this class should surive this patch, we need to do something now. Please give us some hope about the rangers ? and some answers from the staff !</div><div> </div><div>We should be in tier 1 dps right ? i agree that our dmg need to lower some, but not 40-50% <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div>Falcula</div><hr></blockquote>THis game is not about to solo it's about teamwork so stop using this stupid arguments!!!

[Falcu]

<div></div><div></div><div><div>* And all this solo content they have added ? ( need group for them to ? LOL )</div><div>* New solo writs !! (but u need group remeber that ?)</div><div>* Solo instance ( for groups ?)</div><div> </div><div>There is alot of solo players in this game, and this is a game for solo and group player.Read gameinfo or TRY play the game before you comment please.</div><div> </div><div> </div></div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Falcula on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:30 AM</span></p>

[Raistlan]

<span><blockquote>koinor wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>THis game is not about to solo it's about teamwork so stop using this stupid arguments!!!<hr></blockquote>I'm a raider (requires most teamwork in the game, so I think I'm qualified to say my next comment), and I'll call your statement one of the stupidest I've seen.  If you weren't supposed to be able to solo, there wouldn't be solo mobs in the game.  I also think the large proportion of the game that are casual players, who solo quite a bit, would object to your statement as well.  Anyway, to the OP, I'm not a ranger, nor have I ever played one, but I have talked with people on beta and most report it being rather difficult to solo stuff, and I have to agree the nerf seems excessive to say the least.</span><div></div>

[Falcu]

<div>Agree Raistlan, good post ! </div>

[mindygoth]

<div></div><p>Whilst I would agree that a big part of the game is teamwork, it is not the whole.  People should still be able to complete a reasonable amount of the content solo, so if changes do affect a player's abillity to solo, I think they should be addressed.</p><p> </p><p>That being said - Rangers *are* animals - LOL ;-p</p><p> </p><p>I personally wish they would stop fiddling with the various classes DPS etc.  Every class has it's own unique feature and way of winning a fight - be it uber quick like  ranger (coz they fall over quick if they get hit, so they need massive DPS instead), or slow but sure like a healer, whatever....  It would be so boring if we were all totally balanced <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Having been raiding in a guild for a while now - I can't think of one class we would dismiss as useless - every single class brings something really useful to a fight, despite what many threads on these forums would have you believe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And you have to be able to solo stuff, coz you can't always rely on getting a group when you want it, and lets face it - some pick up groups end up a complete disaster, so being forced to group in order to play the game is not a Good Thing (TM) IMHO.</p>

[Dasein]

<div>I've not seen anything to indicate that rangers are losing 40-50% of their DPS. While proc rates overall will be reduced in some situations, namely off combat arts and attacks that inflict multiple hits, procs have hardly been eliminated. I am curious if anyone has dne a comparison of the before and after proc rates, as that would be the best way to tell what the ultimate DPS reduction will be. However, claims of 40-50% DPS loss are not accurate based on the description of the changes.</div>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:However, claims of 40-50% DPS loss are not accurate based on the description of the changes.<hr></blockquote>You obviously don't play a ranger.  40-50% DPS loss is almost exactly accurate.</span></div>

[Venzule]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>koinor wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Falcula wrote:<div></div><div>Hi,</div><div>Can any DEV please give us some answers to all the speculations about the Rangers dsp now, seems like the dps is going to be cut with 40-50% with the new proc changes AND THATS SICK, would destroy the class. <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Would be almost impossible to solo anymore.</strong></font></div><div> </div><div>If this class should surive this patch, we need to do something now. Please give us some hope about the rangers ? and some answers from the staff !</div><div> </div><div>We should be in tier 1 dps right ? i agree that our dmg need to lower some, but not 40-50% <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div>Falcula</div><hr></blockquote>THis game is not about to solo it's about teamwork so stop using this stupid arguments!!!<hr></blockquote><p>Tell yourself that when everyone quits because of SOE stupidity and your alone and cant find anyone to group with.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Arhan]

<div></div>Its a nice snip in the groin for sure.  Our DPS I believe needs toned down.  However rangers depend on poison procs, and also item procs to do most of there damage.  Our archery stance depends on proc <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I'm raid leader and parse all of our raid encounters.  40+% of our damage is based on Quick Shot and Poison Damage.   SoE better do something or there going lose a lot of rangers.

[Caliga]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div>I've not seen anything to indicate that rangers are losing 40-50% of their DPS. While proc rates overall will be reduced in some situations, namely off combat arts and attacks that inflict multiple hits, procs have hardly been eliminated. I am curious if anyone has dne a comparison of the before and after proc rates, as that would be the best way to tell what the ultimate DPS reduction will be. However, claims of 40-50% DPS loss are not accurate based on the description of the changes.</div><hr></blockquote>They are right.  We do A LOT of our damage with poison.  I mean A LOT.  For one, we poison on almost every hit.  And the actual damage of our spells isn't that awe inspiring high.  Any mage or monk can outdamage a ranger with no poison.</span></div>

[MrTransistor2006]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arhan wrote:<div></div>SoE better do something or there going lose a lot of rangers.<hr></blockquote>I think that's the idea.  So now instead of 4 in every 5 people being a ranger or having a ranger alt, we'll have 3 in 5.</span></div>

[Cuz]

<div>So people were saying that you were doing double the DPS as other T1 classes, and now you guys say you got you DPS cut in half. Shouldn't that be perfect?</div>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div>So people were saying that you were doing double the DPS as other T1 classes, and now you guys say you got you DPS cut in half. Shouldn't that be perfect?</div><hr></blockquote>lol if only.  this is what happens to perception when its based completely off hearsay.In <b>some </b>situations we were doubling other T1 DPS.  That will fix those situations.  Hooray.The problem is that there were a ton of situations where we were only leading by 100-200 DPS, sometimes less, and sometimes even behind other classes, depending on the encounter.The proc change hits us harder than anyone actually understands.  Look at the graphs that have been posted in many threads.  Now on <b>some</b> fights we will be even with T1 DPS, and on many situations we will be <b>incredibly behind</b>.  Not to mention the DPS potential we lose solo that no other T1 DPS class loses (because our ranged attacks are no longer powerful and our melee skills are sub-par compared to almost every other melee class).The devs are correct, we are not supposed to be #1 DPS all the time.  However, we are supposed to be T1 DPS, and if there is no compensation through modified CAs in addition to the proc change, we will no longer be able to fulfill our role as T1 DPS.  It's that simple.</span></div>

[Dontan]

Rangers were over powered.<div></div>

[Fennir]

Summoners would do well to keep their mouths shut.  Rangers were the only thing protecting them from the incredibly high-pitched whine coming from the direction of the sorcerers.<div></div>

[Lord of the Arct]

I am glad to hear, that Conjureres at Beta now are as well balanced as rangers are.Hope you enjoy your new position at Tier2, that means you will loose about 60% DPS.

[Dontan]

I have my conj. in Beta.  I am happy with where he is.  So...suck it up and welcome to the realm of normal dps.<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div>Conjurer's Parse as high if not Higher than rangers and their supposed to be tier 2. Maybe you should learn to play your class.</div>

[Dontan]

LOL...<img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a123/xabbufv/rolleyes.gif"><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div>Conjurer's Parse as high if not Higher than rangers and their supposed to be tier 2. Maybe you should learn to play your class.</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Xakkoriz]

Maybe people shouldn't whine when a class can do something another one can't.... I mean what is this .... the lets balance everything out so there is absolutely no unique class except for spell graphics game? lol...<div></div>

[digl]

<div></div>I think this is just the way SOE works. Rangers are the top DPS'ers right now and they are not supposed to be, they are supposed to be among the top. Wizards are crap in a raid situation so thier DPS looks bad even though its tops in a solo encounter. Instead of fixing Wizards or triming Rangers back a bit, SOE will compleatly nerf Rangers beyond what is necessary. Hopefully this will make room for a few wizards in uber raiding guilds and general raid situations (I'm a wizard) but I am sorry for our Ranger brothers that have to pay this price. The scary thing for me is that if Wizards creep back into the pack of Tier 1 DPS'ers or even get fixed and become good DPS'ers, we'll get the ninja nerf too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by diglow on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:26 AM</span></p>

[Krooner]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Falcula wrote:<div></div><div>Hi,</div><div>Can any DEV please give us some answers to all the speculations about the Rangers dsp now, seems like the dps is going to be cut with 40-50% with the new proc changes AND THATS SICK, would destroy the class. <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Would be almost impossible to solo(Scornfeathers Roost) anymore</strong></font>.</div><div> </div><div>If this class should surive this patch, we need to do something now. Please give us some hope about the rangers ? and some answers from the staff !</div><div> </div><div>We should be in tier 1 dps right ? i agree that our dmg need to lower some, but not 40-50% <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div>Falcula</div><hr></blockquote><p>Fixed it 4 U.</p><p>Come on man.  Yes your suppose to be T1 DPS not 50% above T1.</p><p> </p>

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div>So people were saying that you were doing double the DPS as other T1 classes, and now you guys say you got you DPS cut in half. Shouldn't that be perfect?</div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">lol if only.  this is what happens to perception when its based completely off hearsay</font>.In <b>some </b>situations we were doubling other T1 DPS.  That will fix those situations.  Hooray.The problem is that there were a ton of situations where we were only leading by 100-200 DPS, sometimes less, and sometimes even behind other classes, depending on the encounter.The proc change hits us harder than anyone actually understands.  Look at the graphs that have been posted in many threads.  Now on <b>some</b> fights we will be even with T1 DPS, and on many situations we will be <b>incredibly behind</b>.  Not to mention the DPS potential we lose solo that no other T1 DPS class loses (because our ranged attacks are no longer powerful and our melee skills are sub-par compared to almost every other melee class).The devs are correct, we are not supposed to be #1 DPS all the time.  However, we are supposed to be T1 DPS, and if there is no compensation through modified CAs in addition to the proc change, we will no longer be able to fulfill our role as T1 DPS.  It's that simple.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p><span>That was kind of my point. I've seen both sides post "facts". I do feel for rangers, a nerf is never something pleasant to go through. However I see this more as a bug fix that entails a nerf. I hope that if you guys are not doing the damage you are suppose to be doing that SOE does bring you back up quickly. I think some people are being melodramatic.</span></p>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Jenoy wrote:<p><span>I think some people are being melodramatic.</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>All rangers are. I can understand them though, no one wants to be a normal class. Assassins complained for months because we were obscenely outdps'ed by rangers, because we thought some of our stuff was broken, etc.. then we got over it and started playing our class the best we could. I suggest rangers do the same, suck it up and move on.</p><p>SOE made a decision, you aren't going to have godly dps anymore, whine all you want they won't change their minds; they didn't do it with any other class and certainly they won't do it for yours. If you don't like it reroll for another class or suck it up and start adapting to the changes in your class.</p><p>Finally, rogues and assassins will have their dps nerfed as well, perhaps not in the same magnitude but nerfed nevertheless. You don't see us putting a Jerry Springer show because of that. The only class the deserves to whine and complain are Brigands the rest should just pipe down (no, I don't play a brigand, I just sympathize with them).</p><p>Message Edited by Kaiser Sigma on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:57 PM</span></p>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>Krooner must have a mage alt.  Must have killed him that mages weren't the only classes that could solo instances for a period of time.  Yay, rangers got the skills to solo instances with the DoF expansion.  Now it's being taken away and alot more with it.  Back to the pre LU13 days where only the mage classes got to solo instances and crap.</p><p> </p>

[mighty_fc]

<div></div>/signed @op

[Krooner]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>Krooner must have a mage alt.  Must have killed him that mages weren't the only classes that could solo instances for a period of time.  Yay, rangers got the skills to solo instances with the DoF expansion.  Now it's being taken away and alot more with it.  Back to the pre LU13 days where only the mage classes got to solo instances and crap.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I have a 54 Guardian That was the guilds MT for a long time.  So I certanly know what nerfs feel like.</p><p>I have a 60 Dirge that is now my main.</p><p>and I have a 34 Wizard thats just a hobby toon.  I personaly dont care what damage he does.  I created him just to see what other spells and abilities. were out there. </p><p>I dont care if my mage can EVER solo any heroic zone. </p><p>These changes are going to affect a lot more than just RANGERS.  Dirges have a marque spell called Cacaphony of Blades.  Its suppose to do a interupt with every strike and addition desease damage.  Its very useful in raids.  This change will downgrade my DPS as well. </p><p>Just like some people feel that the guarduan had it too good in the beginning many feel the Ranger had it just as good.  Now they are "balancing DPS" with this proc change.  Do I think its going to solve any problem... probably not.  BUT COME ON GUYS.  You know your DPS was a little more than over the top.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:53 AM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><div></div><font color="#ff6600"></font><blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>Krooner must have a mage alt.  Must have killed him that mages weren't the only classes that could solo instances for a period of time.  Yay, rangers got the skills to solo instances with the DoF expansion.  Now it's being taken away and alot more with it.  Back to the pre LU13 days where only the mage classes got to solo instances and crap.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I have a 54 Guardian That was the guilds MT for a long time.  So I certanly know what nerfs feel like.</p><p>I have a 60 Dirge that is now my main.</p><p>and I have a 34 Wizard thats just a hobby toon.  I personaly dont care what damage he does.  I created him just to see what other spells and abilities. were out there. </p><p>I dont care if my mage can EVER solo any heroic zone. </p><p>These changes are going to affect a lot more than just RANGERS.  <font color="#ff3300">Dirges have a marque spell called Cacaphony of Blades.  Its suppose to do a interupt with every strike and addition desease damage.  Its very useful in raids.</font>  This change will downgrade my DPS as well. </p><p>Just like some people feel that the guarduan had it too good in the beginning many feel the Ranger had it just as good.  Now they are "balancing DPS" with this proc change.  Do I think its going to solve any problem... probably not.  BUT COME ON GUYS.  You know your DPS was a little more than over the top.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:53 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Cacophony of Blades shouldn't be effected at all by this since it Procs 100%.</p><p>And no Ranger is Stating that our DPS shouldn't have been lowered, for months most of the Ranger community has agreed that our DPS is too High. The issue is that with 6 Days left and little testing done they are making such a huge change. We don't want to have to stay nerfed for 6 months more before we get fixed again, We did that Pre-Lu13 when we totally sucked.</p><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:59 AM</span></p>

[Krooner]

ChaosUndivided wrote:<p>These changes are going to affect a lot more than just RANGERS.  <font color="#ff3300">Dirges have a marque spell called Cacaphony of Blades.  Its suppose to do a interupt with every strike and addition desease damage.  Its very useful in raids.</font>  This change will downgrade my DPS as well. </p><p> </p><p>Yes it will.  I tested CoB in depth this weekend.</p><p>I had a slash weapon in the primary hand.  And a Pierce weapon in the secondary.</p><p>same mobs, same resists, same time frame.</p><p>The results looked like this.</p><p>straight melee with CoB up.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">slash damage for (x) amount</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">chime does (x) amount of desease damage - interupts target</font></p><p>pierce daamage for (x) amount</p><p><font color="#ff0000">slash damage for (x) amount</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">chime does (x) amount of desease damage - interupts target.</font></p><p> </p><p>With CA's mixed in like void blade that hits twice.</p><p><font color="#ff3300">slash damage for (x) amount</font></p><p><font color="#ff3300">chime does (x) amount of desease damage - interupts target</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Your void blade hits for (x) amount of desease damage (first hit)</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">chime does (x) amount of desease damage - interupts target</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">Your void blade hits for (x) amount of desease damage ( second hit )</font></p><p><font color="#0066ff">chime does (x) amount of desease damage - interupts target</font></p><p>pierce damage for (x) amount.</p><p>If it doesnt affect spells like this it will be because of a bug they overlooked and fixed in some open or stealth update.</p><p>Like I said.  I played a guardian from day one and as long as I could stand it through the LU13 debacle.  I dont like to see anyone feel their class is being nerfed beyond being fun.  But you had to know it was coming.</p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div>So people were saying that you were doing double the DPS as other T1 classes, and now you guys say you got you DPS cut in half. Shouldn't that be perfect?</div><hr></blockquote>lol if only.  this is what happens to perception when its based completely off hearsay.In <b>some </b>situations we were doubling other T1 DPS.  That will fix those situations.  Hooray.The problem is that there were a ton of situations where we were only leading by 100-200 DPS, sometimes less, and sometimes even behind other classes, depending on the encounter.The proc change hits us harder than anyone actually understands.  Look at the graphs that have been posted in many threads.  Now on <b>some</b> fights we will be even with T1 DPS, and on many situations we will be <b>incredibly behind</b>.  Not to mention the DPS potential we lose solo that no other T1 DPS class loses (because our ranged attacks are no longer powerful and our melee skills are sub-par compared to almost every other melee class).The devs are correct, we are not supposed to be #1 DPS all the time.  However, we are supposed to be T1 DPS, and if there is no compensation through modified CAs in addition to the proc change, we will no longer be able to fulfill our role as T1 DPS.  It's that simple.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>So?  Do  you have this need to be on the top of parse all the time?  I am an assassin, and I am usually 2 or 3, sometimes even less when some mobs are resistant to to my attacks.   And I work my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off for that DPS, avoiding AoEs, etc just trying to keep up to the ranger and he still gets for the most part 300-500DPS more then me.   He has a imbued ironwood, cobalt weapons, and of course his poison.  I am tricked out with fable T6 weapons with poison, str potions, with 500+ raid str etc and he still is #1 on the parser 90% of the time.  Only time he is not is because the rare occasion he dies (hard too with 50% hate reduction or whatever it is), is being lazy, or probably watching TV. </p><p>I just really hope the assassins don't get to be the new kings of DPS because I really DONT want to see the bandwagon assassins coming out of the woodwork.   I want all T1 DPS to be on equal footing for the most part.  Not one, be it ranger, assassin, wizard, or warlock blowing away the DPS out put of the other 3.  That is incredibly dumb and causes the unbalance of class population we have now.  IE having way too many freaking rangers on each server.  That some guilds are now exploiting this by employing mulitple rangers on thier raids.  Because frankly what is better having 1 ranger who can out DPS a wizard by 2-3 times or having 3 wizards?  Some guilds are trivializing high end raid content because of the abuse of ranger DPS. </p><p>I know if I were a full time ranger I would not be happy that I just became the FOTM class.  And I don't want it for my assassin. </p><p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Fennir]

Why did you quote my post?  It's not like you read it.<div></div>

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:Why did you quote my post?  It's not like you read it.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Now this is funny.</p><p> </p><p>(Not being sarcastic)</p>

[Caliga]

Now, I don't sit with a bunch of programs in the background calculating who did what to who and for how much.  I just play the game.  And I know that right now my ranger can solo a single mob reasonably well.  Not ^^^ heroics or anything fancy like that.  And she can solo a group of mobs that con even to her only because her poison procs on every mob.  I know this because before I discovered how useful that attack line was I was not able to solo group mobs at all.  I don't care if I don't come out at the top of some damage list.  But I do care if I lose my ability to solo.  If I wanted to play a group dependant class I would have been a priest.<div></div>

[Radgen]

<div><em>So?  Do  you have this need to be on the top of parse all the time?  I am an assassin, and I am usually 2 or 3, sometimes even less when some mobs are resistant to to my attacks.</em>  </div><div> </div><div>You missed the point by a long shot.</div><div> </div><div>Apparently you all missed it but they have been scaeling back ranger DPS almost sinse DoF was released.  A little change here, A littel change there.  You did not see the uproar from rangers on this(except for a few idiots) becasue we knew that the original combat upgrade went a bit to far and we probably needed to be toned down a bit.  We were not completely outclassing everyone else,  but were  a bit to far ahead, so the incremental changes they were making made sense.</div><div> </div><div>Now in beta, the new AA system briught out a big flaw in the proc system that otherwise would not have been an issue that much of an issue.  I am guessing that there was no way to "fix" the AA's and keep them useful, so they went after a proc system they had not been happy with(but which they had been useing and balanceing classes with).  The problem there is some classes were balanced and had changes made to them based on how the procs worked on live.  Changeing this throws 6 months of balance work out the window.   Considering how long it takes them to look at things(Assassins have been struggling to reach their assigned tier for months and still no real fixes yet), excuse up in the ranger community if we are less than faithful that a fix is coming anytime soon.</div><div> </div><div>A lot of the FOTM syndrome had more to do with the massive original improvement to the class, not its actual power in relation to other classes.  If someone ditched a wizard to level up a ranger, they were fools.  There time would have been better spent tweaking thier wizard.</div><div> </div><div>If the reports and parses are correct.  Rangers are now down to about T2.  Assassins, who were struggling to get into the T1 where they were suppose to be, are also taking a hit(not as bad as rangers, but a hit none the less) will solidly be in T2.</div><div> </div><div>T1 is suppose to be rangers/assassins/wizards/warlocks in no particular order. </div><div> </div><div>I might also add, that I saw very little bragging or showing off by rangers.  The childish [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s now taunting a whole class of fellow palyers should be ashamed of themselves.  Go get a date, being able to do virtual combat with a bunch of pixels does not make you a man.</div>

[Astery]

every level you get 1 ability point, all skills for every class does the same 'under different name of course', same hp + power.SO NOONE COMPLAINS ANYMORE...if they balance for pvp, then this is the wrong way doing it. they should make certain classes better than others, while making also voulnarabe to many others. like ranger kills 3-4 other classes easier, while having difficulty with 3-4 other, the rest is on the same level.i know this kind of thing to develop is not easy, and needs some brainz, and right now even broker is not working, not to mention the last great world event how 'good' it was toward crafters and not raiders.

[Kaan]

Oh come on people. I'm a level 55 troubador; and as we all know way behind in the DPS realm compaired to Rangers (I'm around 250 DPS) and you know what? I can solo JUST fine.So, whats your DPS now? Give me a number, what is your DPS looking like...don't say 50% less, because 50% less for you, may be 200, but 50% less for this other ranger may be 400. So how much DPS are you doing now? 300, 350? I can solo yellow single arrow ups, yea I know...nothing compaired to your Triple Arrow ups, but you know...since when was a triple arrow up surpposed to be soloed anyway?So you get broght down from God like DPS, to welcome to the real world DPS. And tell me this...why does it have to always be about DPS????? Do those numbers give you an orgasim or something? Geeze, I've heard of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]..but some people go beyound [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and cross into the realm of crazy.So, looks like you're going to have to use actual tactics now solo'ing, instead of destoring a mob so quick you might as well not even tried. So, your DPS has bee cut...you're still top of the line, you're not far above, but if you play right you can still come out on top...so learn to play your class better and just maybe you'll come out on top of your all mighty parsers that you all seem to worship as if they were some god.DPS IS GOD! WORSHIP IT, ADORE IT...THEIR SHALL BE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES DPS! AMEN!

[Macrr]

<div></div><p>after some digging, I found this post from MG</p><p><strong><font color="#fdf1be">Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</font></strong> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.First group:</p><ul><li>Wizard/Warlock</li><li>Assassin/Ranger</li></ul><p>Second group:</p><ul><li>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)</li><li>Brigand/Swashbuckler</li></ul><p>Third group:</p><ul><li>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)</li><li>Troubador/Dirge</li><li>Bruiser/Monk</li></ul><p>Fourth group:</p><ul><li>Berserker/Shadowknight</li><li>Paladin/Guardian</li></ul><p>Fifth group:</p><ul><li>Fury/Warden</li><li>Defiler/Mystic</li><li>Inquisitor/Templar</li></ul><p>Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities. These are simply the general guidelines we're following where, all things being equal, the classes will be organized.The thing with class balance, though, is that all things are *never* equal. So much of the damage output of a class depends on how that class is played that it simply isn't possible for anyone to guarantee that a given class will always perform at a certain level under every circumstance. However, the above list should at least give players an idea of the direction our numbers will be taking.</p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>see the whole interview <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43">HERE</a>.</p>

[kartikeya]

<div><hr>Kaanha wrote:Oh come on people. I'm a level 55 troubador; and as we all know way behind in the DPS realm compaired to Rangers (I'm around 250 DPS) and you know what? I can solo JUST fine.So, whats your DPS now? Give me a number, what is your DPS looking like...don't say 50% less, because 50% less for you, may be 200, but 50% less for this other ranger may be 400. So how much DPS are you doing now? 300, 350? I can solo yellow single arrow ups, yea I know...nothing compaired to your Triple Arrow ups, but you know...since when was a triple arrow up surpposed to be soloed anyway?So you get broght down from God like DPS, to welcome to the real world DPS. And tell me this...why does it have to always be about DPS????? Do those numbers give you an orgasim or something? Geeze, I've heard of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]..but some people go beyound [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and cross into the realm of crazy.So, looks like you're going to have to use actual tactics now solo'ing, instead of destoring a mob so quick you might as well not even tried. So, your DPS has bee cut...you're still top of the line, you're not far above, but if you play right you can still come out on top...so learn to play your class better and just maybe you'll come out on top of your all mighty parsers that you all seem to worship as if they were some god.DPS IS GOD! WORSHIP IT, ADORE IT...THEIR SHALL BE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES DPS! AMEN!<hr></div><p> </p><div>You're a bard. The reason why your DPS is so low is because you get other skills to compensate. Bards are the utility scouts, they get utility and pay for it with lower DPS than other scouts. The fact that you can solo is <em>because</em> of your other abilities. If SOE were to take away a great portion of that utility, you would be hurting.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They give up almost all utility to be pure DPS. Our DPS is to us what your songs are to you. To say that because bards can solo fine on 300 DPS that rangers can too is just silly. We have one self buff (it buffs our agility, nothing to write home about). We have a defensive stance and an offensive stance (the latter has a proc, which naturally is nerfed with this change as well.) We have pathfinding, which suspends during combat.</div><div>As far as tactics go--what are you talking about? We're in chain too. We're both scouts. You have the ability to buff yourself and debuff the mob, we /have/ to burn the mob down quick or kite it, else we're as dead as you would be if you tried to go toe to toe with no buffs/debuffs/damage songs/whatever. I've soloed the vast majority of my leveling, all the way to 60. It wasn't rocket science, but it wasn't a freaking cakewalk either.</div><div> </div><div>You asked for numbers. I'm not much of a number cruncher (that may change in the coming days), so I'll simply repost what has been posted in several threads now, but which people are continuously ignoring. Actual numbers from a ranger who IS on Beta and IS number crunching:</div><div> </div><div>Damage is really bad.  Did a T7 raid last nice while at L70 with all T7 combat arts at M1 level.  No AA's and was about 60 strenght from the cap of 510.  My best parse was in the 600's and I was going full burn almost every fight.  That puts us at about low T3 damage.  Was constantly outdps'd by brigands,swashies, and necros.  And was even outdps'd on quite a few (more than half) by bruiser, sk, and guardian.  Pretty much the only classes I was consistant in beating were priests. This was going full out. I'm gonna assume that I may have broken 700 dps on a few fights if I had 510 str but without proc from strength ring or strength buff this is going to take fairly specific group setup.  From this raid can say that one of the winners in T7 was necro.  Pretty much every fight he parsed over 1200 which was a big increase over T6 numbers.  Have not seen parse from assassin or warlock but thinking that assassin is going to be doing as much or more than we were before the changes seeing as how swashbuckler/brigand are pretty much the same or better than they were in T6. We are also one of the biggest power hogs in the game again.  Basically we went back to exactly the same place we were before the combat revamp.</div><div> </div><div>This is a level 70 ranger with full fabled gear and all CA's at master level. I don't know how we can be any more plain about this problem.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Radgen]

<div><em>And tell me this...why does it have to always be about DPS????? Do those numbers give you an orgasim or something?</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>Well lets see...how about because Rangers/Assassins/Wizards/Warlocks primary role is to deal damage.  DO you make fun of Templars talking about thier healing ability?  OH let me guess you think Pallys talking about tanking are stupid too?  You may be a good bard, but you know jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about the needs and concearns of other classes.</div><div> </div><div>The damage dealing classes can't tank, they can't buff very well, they can't heal.  What they do is damage so for them DPS is a major if not primary  concearn. </div><div> </div><div><em>So, looks like you're going to have to use actual tactics now solo'ing, instead of destoring a mob so quick you might as well not even tried. </em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>There are always tactics involved but DPS classes inherently are better solo'ers.  Nothing in the world is going to change that.  But that doesn't not mean there are not  a lot tactics involved.  Yes we burn down mobs quickly.  Thats cause we have to.  Even the scouts wearing chain tank like crap and I should not have to mention wizard and tank in the same sentence.  We can't take being hit on for very long.  WHat you are ignoreing is that if we don;t do the DPS we are suppose to in groups and raids, we don't do our job.  Wizards/Warlock/Ranger/Assassins all have ONE job.  Put out as much DPS as possible without gaining aggro off the tank.  Knock rangers/assassins down to T2 and what reason would you bring a ranger in on a group or raid?   Without the DPS we don;t have a role.</div><div> </div><div><em>So, your DPS has bee cut...you're still top of the line, you're not far above, but if you play right you can still come out on top...</em><div><em></em> </div><div><em></em> </div><div>Have you even bothered to look at the parses coming out of beta right now?  Apparently not or you might have seen the lie in your statement.  Rangers in beta are not on top.  They are solidly doing T2 DPS.  Unless you are playing a ranger on test you have NO place to say this -- <em>but if you play right you can still come out on top...</em>  Just what are you baseing that on.  What testing, what parseing?  Or is this another epiphany from your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] again?<div> </div></div></div><div> </div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

How many times do they have to explain it?  It isnt a nerf.  It is a bug fix on multiple procs going off at the same time.  This doesnt just affect rangers.  It affects everyone.  Again, not a nerf but something that should have been fixed a long time ago.<div></div>

[kartikeya]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:How many times do they have to explain it?  It isnt a nerf.  It is a bug fix on multiple procs going off at the same time.  This doesnt just affect rangers.  It affects everyone.  Again, not a nerf but something that should have been fixed a long time ago.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's a nerf. You can call it a bug fix, an 'upgrade', a 'tweak', or a bag of hammers. It's still a nerf. They even stated it was directed at rangers, because they were above the other Tier1 classes in DPS.  And it does hit more than us, which is another reason why I'm so irritated by it, because those classes weren't performing outside their damage tiers in the first place.</p><p>Saying it's a 'bug fix' and not a 'nerf' doesn't change a single thing about it, it's just you being deliberately obtuse.</p><p> </p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:How many times do they have to explain it?  It isnt a nerf.  It is a bug fix on multiple procs going off at the same time.  This doesnt just affect rangers.  It affects everyone.  Again, not a nerf but something that should have been fixed a long time ago.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>That's not the core issue. The matter which has Rangers upset is the normalising of proc chance from CAs to the cast time of the CA.</p><p>Read and understand what's going on before you lecture others about what they do and don't understand.</p>

[IeU]

CRY MORE<div></div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div>IeU,</div><div> </div><div>Given that your two chars have barely broken lvl 30 and neither is a Scout - why don't you go and troll a forum where you have some tiny clue about what's being spoken about?</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and I see this isn't the only thread you are trolling with your highly original 'CRY MORE'. Please - grow up or go back to WoW. </div><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:28 PM</span></p>

[pikeymoose]

<div>Sony sees players playing.  Sony sees mains roll alts....and Sony sees 50% of alts are now rangers...Sony says there must be a reason that ....Dam they are overpowered. Fix it.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[klepp]

<div>if these changes are going through.. and they are.  I WILL NOT be satisified until we are T1 dps WITHOUT using poisons.  WHY should we spend FUGGIN 2-5platinum a week to be "compareable" dps.     Never cried about it until now......</div>

[klepp]

<div></div><div>he isnt bs'ing.... heh my biggest competition on raid parses is the damnd guild conjuror!  He beats me 1/2 the time.. EXCEPT he doesnt have to pay a platinum a night to do it..    im sick to my stomach</div>

[pikeymoose]

<div>The casters can farm there coin and don't need poison (yes unfair).  AT least a ranger can also farm a few t6 master1 a day solo to more than keep up with the poison.  Try farming as a gimped scout bard solo.  Really this game is broken as long as any class can sit and solo / farm nameds all day long and sell master 1s for 4 plat each.  If your class and you all know who you are can do this, watch you back for the upcomming nerf bat.  Sonys vision of at least a 2 box to farm is a closer look to reality, becuse single box farming is just plain too easy.</div><div> </div><div>Moose</div>

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>if these changes are going through.. and they are.  I WILL NOT be satisified until we are T1 dps WITHOUT using poisons.  WHY should we spend FUGGIN 2-5platinum a week to be "compareable" dps.     Never cried about it until now......</div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p><span>My troub, monk, mystic, and necro would all love the chance to use poisons. Also there's no way you should be paying a plat a night for poisons. I'm a 60 alchemist, and I can't even fathom making a plat a night off of 1 scout. Get to know an alchemist.</span></p><p><span>Oh and in regards to you're next post where you state that a conjuror "makes you sick to your stomach", maybe you should stop playing. Developing an ulcer due to an </span><span>entertainment</span><span> product would be rather pathetic.</span> </p>

[Caliga]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaanha wrote:Oh come on people. I'm a level 55 troubador; and as we all know way behind in the DPS realm compaired to Rangers (I'm around 250 DPS) and you know what? I can solo JUST fine.So, whats your DPS now? Give me a number, what is your DPS looking like...don't say 50% less, because 50% less for you, may be 200, but 50% less for this other ranger may be 400. So how much DPS are you doing now? 300, 350? I can solo yellow single arrow ups, yea I know...nothing compaired to your Triple Arrow ups, but you know...since when was a triple arrow up surpposed to be soloed anyway?So you get broght down from God like DPS, to welcome to the real world DPS. And tell me this...why does it have to always be about DPS????? Do those numbers give you an orgasim or something? Geeze, I've heard of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]..but some people go beyound [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and cross into the realm of crazy.So, looks like you're going to have to use actual tactics now solo'ing, instead of destoring a mob so quick you might as well not even tried. So, your DPS has bee cut...you're still top of the line, you're not far above, but if you play right you can still come out on top...so learn to play your class better and just maybe you'll come out on top of your all mighty parsers that you all seem to worship as if they were some god.DPS IS GOD! WORSHIP IT, ADORE IT...THEIR SHALL BE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES DPS! AMEN!<hr></blockquote>Um... maybe my ranger just isn't dressed right or something.  I thought ebon was good, but I guess not if other rangers are dropping mobs in record time.  It's killing me how powerful people think rangers are.  It's clear no one has played them above level 20, else you would know, we aren't cutting threw mobs like warm butter.  It's just in people's imagination.  I don't care if the "nerf" or "fix" the poison or whatever.   As long as they give something to balance it out.  Which they did not.  They could increase our auto-attack amount which is sadly low.  Or our CAs.  Just something to keep us on our feet when we are going toe-to-toe with a mob.   As for being creative, I am not kiting evens.  That's pathetic. </span></div><p>Message Edited by pinkdove80 on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:40 AM</span></p>

[higgs]

<div></div>Again I ask two questions... First don't we have to wait until they have completed the new patch to see what they actually do to the class?  Second if they are just bring the ranger class back to the same dps that other character types in there dps tier are why the complaining?

[Caliga]

First answer: Complaining now gives me a good head start because once I get on my main I will be too busy sobbing to complain.Second answer:  I don't believe we were ever that far ahead of any class to begin with.  And taking half of our dps away puts us in the completely useless pile and since most classes aren't completely useless, that doesn't put us on level with them.   As soon as I can get on I am running out and killing an even to see what they did to my main.  And if I get my butt handed to me, I am gonna be 12 kinds of [Removed for Content] off.<div></div>

[klepp]

<div>conjurors dont make me sick to my stomach, the fact that people whine about who should be where in dps whe nwe pay so much for it.. just to keep up (supposedly not even) now  does.  And since your so naive.... not LITERALLY sick to my stomach, its an expression but apparently your fishing for an arguement. Nonetheless, its been broken down before but ill break it down again.  (on my server)Adeste Disruption (legendary) I pay anywhere from 15-17g per... go through 3+ a day.Transulcent Phantasmic Visions (which is now gonna be useless) goes for 5-17g each (now moreso 17 since alch's seen how popular it is) i go through ALOT of these a day depending on what im doing.  I try and limit it as much as possible and dont use them in instance groups or xp groups as they would make things alot easier, but cost me alot more which isnt fair.  So we'l say i use 6 a day because i dont use them during raid time, pointless dont work on epics.Finally Debuff poisons usually Curse of Djinn which debufs mitigation .  5-7g per (treasured) and i use about 4-5 a night (on raids)</div><div> </div><div>so do the math.  You have no idea just how much poison a ranger chews through.</div><div>And as for soloing masters... call me a noob.. but where can one go to guaruntee a master?  Ive solo'd ALOT of stuff.. and ive gotten 2 masters in my day... 2... and they were both of trash mobs... one was  a solo gnoll in SS and one was a cyclops in PoF.   So.. id hardly point fingers as that could be anyone.  I farm the same way every other class does.. shoudl they choose.  I used to tradeskill for $$ but i thin kthats gonna be out the window w/ the new ease of combines.  Lots of final product is gonna rush the market and prices are gonna plummet hard.  Before there was more of a variety, some made there money of combines alone, some off finals, some off of subs..... now click boom final product.. its gonna be interesting.</div>

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>conjurors dont make me sick to my stomach, the fact that people whine about who should be where in dps whe nwe pay so much for it.. just to keep up (supposedly not even) now  does.  And since your so naive.... <font color="#ff0000">not LITERALLY sick to my stomach, its an expression but apparently your fishing for an arguement. </font>Nonetheless, its been broken down before but ill break it down again.  (on my server)Adeste Disruption (legendary) I pay anywhere from 15-17g per... go through 3+ a day.Transulcent Phantasmic Visions (which is now gonna be useless) goes for 5-17g each (now moreso 17 since alch's seen how popular it is) i go through ALOT of these a day depending on what im doing.  I try and limit it as much as possible and dont use them in instance groups or xp groups as they would make things alot easier, but cost me alot more which isnt fair.  So we'l say i use 6 a day because i dont use them during raid time, pointless dont work on epics.Finally Debuff poisons usually Curse of Djinn which debufs mitigation .  5-7g per (treasured) and i use about 4-5 a night (on raids)</div><div> </div><div>so do the math.  You have no idea just how much poison a ranger chews through.</div><div>And as for soloing masters... call me a noob.. but where can one go to guaruntee a master?  Ive solo'd ALOT of stuff.. and ive gotten 2 masters in my day... 2... and they were both of trash mobs... one was  a solo gnoll in SS and one was a cyclops in PoF.   So.. id hardly point fingers as that could be anyone.  I farm the same way every other class does.. shoudl they choose.  I used to tradeskill for $$ but i thin kthats gonna be out the window w/ the new ease of combines.  Lots of final product is gonna rush the market and prices are gonna plummet hard.  Before there was more of a variety, some made there money of combines alone, some off finals, some off of subs..... now click boom final product.. its gonna be interesting.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry I just have huge issues with people being melodramatic. Even worst when it's because of a game.</p><p>Secondly, like I said before hand, get to know an alchemist. I know personally if I knew you'd be a returning customer there's no way I'd charge you 17g for any poison.</p>

[Racmo]

<div><p>Secondly, like I said before hand, get to know an alchemist. I know personally if I knew you'd be a returning customer there's no way I'd charge you 17g for any poison.-------------------</p><p> </p><p>why should we have to?  Do conjurors, wizards, necros, and warlocks pay to be in Tier 1 DPS?  Not to mention that conjurors and necros shouldn't be in there at all.</p></div>

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">why should we have to?<hr size="2" width="100%">Because rangers can wear chain. I don't know how many times it has to be said. Do you not understnad that rangers have *much* better mitigation than casters?Sorcerers wear cloth.Preditors  have to pay for poisons.Sorcerers and Preditors both have low utility.Both a supposed to be tier 1 dps.That's balance.<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">why should we have to?<hr size="2" width="100%">Because rangers can wear chain. I don't know how many times it has to be said. Do you not understnad that rangers have *much* better mitigation than casters?Sorcerers wear cloth.Preditors  have to pay for poisons.Sorcerers and Preditors both have low utility.Both a supposed to be tier 1 dps.That's balance.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Not Disagreeing with you, I'm fine paying to match DPS, but you forgot 2 things.</p><p>Predator's need to Fight Mobs toe to toe, we Cannot Root Like Sorceror's.</p><p>Predator's have Positional Requirements on Over half their attacks (Ranged, Stealth, Behind).</p><p>Predato's have to Pay for their DPS to match That of Sorceror's.</p><p>Predator's get to wear chain Armour.</p><p>Sorceror's Wear Very light Armour.</p><p> </p><p>That is balance. That is why we get chain,</p>

[Mabes]

<div></div>Man, I made a ranger alt because my 60 templar wasn't very much fun for anything besides raids and full groups, I hope they don't make the ranger crappy too.  Well, at least my I only played the ranger to lvl 30

[Ezariel]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>pinkdove80 wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaanha wrote:Oh come on people. I'm a level 55 troubador; and as we all know way behind in the DPS realm compaired to Rangers (I'm around 250 DPS) and you know what? I can solo JUST fine.So, whats your DPS now? Give me a number, what is your DPS looking like...don't say 50% less, because 50% less for you, may be 200, but 50% less for this other ranger may be 400. So how much DPS are you doing now? 300, 350? I can solo yellow single arrow ups, yea I know...nothing compaired to your Triple Arrow ups, but you know...since when was a triple arrow up surpposed to be soloed anyway?So you get broght down from God like DPS, to welcome to the real world DPS. And tell me this...why does it have to always be about DPS????? Do those numbers give you an orgasim or something? Geeze, I've heard of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]..but some people go beyound [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and cross into the realm of crazy.So, looks like you're going to have to use actual tactics now solo'ing, instead of destoring a mob so quick you might as well not even tried. So, your DPS has bee cut...you're still top of the line, you're not far above, but if you play right you can still come out on top...so learn to play your class better and just maybe you'll come out on top of your all mighty parsers that you all seem to worship as if they were some god.DPS IS GOD! WORSHIP IT, ADORE IT...THEIR SHALL BE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES DPS! AMEN!<hr></blockquote>Um... maybe my ranger just isn't dressed right or something.  I thought ebon was good, but I guess not if other rangers are dropping mobs in record time.  It's killing me how powerful people think rangers are.  It's clear no one has played them above level 20, else you would know, we aren't cutting threw mobs like warm butter.  It's just in people's imagination.  I don't care if the "nerf" or "fix" the poison or whatever.   As long as they give something to balance it out.  Which they did not.  They could increase our auto-attack amount which is sadly low.  Or our CAs.  Just something to keep us on our feet when we are going toe-to-toe with a mob.   As for being creative, I am not kiting evens.  That's pathetic. </span></div><p>Message Edited by pinkdove80 on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:40 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I just had to laugh at this.  I played a ranger and I knew I was overpowered.  I could 2 shot kill a yellow single up solo mob more often than not.   And this was at level 48...<p>Message Edited by Ezariel on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div>yea.. and wizards and assassins can one shot solo mobs.. your point?</div>

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Predator's need to Fight Mobs toe to toe, we Cannot Root Like Sorceror's.<hr size="2" width="100%">Don't Rangers have a snare? I realize it's not quite as stong as the sorcerer's roots, but keep in mind roots have a good chance to break as soon as the mob takes damage. Also, lets not forget fizzles and interupts, which makes this one very close. Before lvl 37, roots are practically useless.<hr size="2" width="100%">Predator's have Positional Requirements on Over half their attacks (Ranged, Stealth, Behind).<hr size="2" width="100%">So do sorcerers. As far away as humanly possible. In groups and raids, sorcerers easily killed with two or thress ticks from a dot. Also can't forget about a few of the rangers CAs can be executed while on the run. Sorcers are rooted if they want to cast. Again, this seems fairly balanced.<hr size="2" width="100%">Predato's have to Pay for their DPS to match That of Sorceror's.<hr size="2" width="100%">Exactly. They have to do this becuase they can wear chain, and have higher avoidance. This is how the developers balanced the two classes.<p>There's tons of other things to consider here, such as the ability to deaggro (advantage predator) and the ability to group buff (sorcerer), but all in all, if the preditor's do about the same amount of damage than sorcers do, then I'd say it's very well balanced. If predators were able to do the same type of damage, without paying for poisons, then they would be significatly out of balance, at leasat when compared against sorcerers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>xsvhrs wrote:</p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Predator's need to Fight Mobs toe to toe, we Cannot Root Like Sorceror's.</p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Don't Rangers have a snare? I realize it's not quite as stong as the sorcerer's roots, but keep in mind roots have a good chance to break as soon as the mob takes damage. Also, lets not forget fizzles and interupts, which makes this one very close. Before lvl 37, roots are practically useless.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">Snares are pretty useless, they will break almost with any damage, and have an upper limit as to how far the mob can be slowed. Since Predator's need poison to do our DPS, the DoT component from the Poison almost instantly breaks the snare. At least with a Root, you can get full distance, Nuke/Stun, Reroot before it arrives, repeat. Plus we only have single target snares that have long recasts. </font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">You Get's Fizzles and Intterupts and Resists. I get Misses, Block's and Parries. At least when a Mage Spell Fizzles/Resists he can cast it again in 3 Seconds if not less, if my Melee Attacks Miss, get blocked or Parried, I need to wait the entire cooldown time before using it again which is generally 1Min + for most Ranger Combat Arts.</font></p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Predator's have Positional Requirements on Over half their attacks (Ranged, Stealth, Behind).</p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>So do sorcerers. As far away as humanly possible. In groups and raids, sorcerers easily killed with two or thress ticks from a dot. Also can't forget about a few of the rangers CAs can be executed while on the run. Sorcers are rooted if they want to cast. Again, this seems fairly balanced.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">That's not really a valid comparision, a sorceror can use almost any attack at almost any time. Over half my Attacks, including my most powerfull ones, I can't even use while soloing, AT ALL. Unless I open up with them and get to use 1. My Other attacks then require I be at range from the mob to use, with ample time before he gets to me due to high cast times compared to melee abilities (1.5-3.0Seconds as opposed to .05). We have 1 ranged Combat art that can be cast on the run, and it has a 3minute Reuse timer. Our other arts all require melee range more or less.</font></p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Predator's have to Pay for their DPS to match That of Sorceror's.</p><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Exactly. They have to do this becuase they can wear chain, and have higher avoidance. This is how the developers balanced the two classes.</p><p>There's tons of other things to consider here, such as the ability to deaggro (advantage predator) and the ability to group buff (sorcerer), but all in all, if the preditor's do about the same amount of damage than sorcers do, then I'd say it's very well balanced. If predators were able to do the same type of damage, without paying for poisons, then they would be significatly out of balance, at leasat when compared against sorcerers.</p><p></p><p><font color="#ff9900">Yup, and I don't paying for it, since I believe Sorceror's and Predator's have equal utility more or less.</font></p><p></p><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>As an aside, I don't like the word utility, it is an incredibly vague term that for the most part is incredbily situational in some cases, useless in others, and beneficial in some. I believe each class has some unique abilites that they bring and it is hard to truely compare them apples to apples since each one can provide vastly diffferent benefits depending on the situation.</p><p>With that said, I think Sorceror's and Predator's Provide Comparable "Non-Direct Damage" Abilities to any group and I think their Direct Damage should be equal, but in different ways.</p>

[xsvhrs]

<div></div>Very nice post, Chaos.It's nice to see people that can get their point accross, and even agree to disagree on  somepoint, without blowing the whole thing  out of proportion.The bottom line for the OP is, yes, Predators are supposed to pay for poisions so that their DPS can be in tier 1.<span><span></span></span><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=83781"><span></span></a><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>Let me try and put this in terms a sorcer might understand.  Next time you log in and go out to solo some mobs for XP or a quest try this.  Limit yourself to only using your root skill once for the entire fight.  That should let you get off your Ice Comet, a root and then Balls of Incineration.  After that your only allowed to use your short cast time low damage skills.  Come back and let me know how your solo experience was.  And welcome to the current state of ranger solo ability.</p><p> </p>

[Caliga]

Eh, my ranger is fine.  You people got me all riled up for nothing.   And I guess I have been doing something wrong as I have NEVER EVER killed a yellow in two shots.  I could get it down to orange in two shots and melee it the rest of the way and considering even at orange it got me down to yellow I figured thats how rangers work.  You shoot it til it gets to you and melee it til it dies.  And because I do this the changes weren't so bad for me.  I am starting to understand that a lot of people upset are people who only use their bow.  Thats why half the rangers are saying, "Eh, its not so bad." and the other half are going, "Please God Almighty, KILL ME NOW!" <div></div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>yea.. and wizards and assassins can one shot solo mobs.. your point?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Assassins can deal 4k-6k damage <strong><em>once every 15 minutes</em></strong> and the hit lands with a chance 100% <em>if</em> the mob isn't a brawler... your point?</p>

[Infinity0]

<div></div><p>I have a Wizard main and from my observation, from the outside looking in Rangers no longer do the job of Tier 1 DPS I was not one of the mages crying nerf rangers, due to the fact I believe a class that must pay so much money to do damage and have minimal utility should excel above the rest in their primary proficiency.  I had the opportunity to group with a few Rangers yesterday that I always group with, for some reason they all logged after about 30 minutes of play. Last night fights where taking forever with the same people, so I decided to start parsing.  Dirge, Wizard, Conjurer and Berserker easily did 25-50% more damage than our Rangers.</p><p><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --> <!-- [endif] --></p><p>I honestly believe SOE dropped the ball big time with this Ranger nerf do they have a clue about customer relations, product expectations, brand marketing?<span>  </span>Since I was there for the SWG debacle when I think about SOE I see a company that pulls the rug from under their customers feet, after they invested copious amounts of time and money into their products.<span>  </span>To the Wizards that helped bring upon this unneeded super nerf of rangers, how long do you honestly think it will be until we feel the wrath of the SOE dev sledgehammer?</p><div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><p>If this is really a problem in live, people need to start putting up parses.  I've seen so little before live and now in live... nothing.</p><p>If Ranger DPS is awful now, then I'm 100% with ya that it needs to be fixed.  I grouped with some yesterday though, and you would have expected to hear a "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] my dps sucks now" but... nothing.</p>

[Racmo]

<div><p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>If this is really a problem in live, people need to start putting up parses.  I've seen so little before live and now in live... nothing.</p><p>If Ranger DPS is awful now, then I'm 100% with ya that it needs to be fixed.  I grouped with some yesterday though, and you would have expected to hear a "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] my dps sucks now" but... nothing.</p><p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p> </p><p>Parses were put up in Beta.  They've been put up on the ranger board.   Why put them  here? Several reasons for that.</p><p>1) Accurate parses were put up during beta.  They were refuted by unsubstantiated and imflammatory remarks by Moorguard.  A couple of examples are and they are paraphrased somewhat.</p><p>  "If Rangers are getting 55% of their DPS from poisons we have other problems"</p><p>   "Rangers exploited the proc algorithm by using long delay bows"</p><p>   "Rangers  were logging 4K DPS in Beta" - Without mentioning that there were bugs in the AAs that allowed this to happen. </p><p>2) This community was neither open minded as a whole(some exceptions certainly) or willing to examine the data with any type of impartial Eye.</p><p>3)  Contrary to all the evidence that was put forth the announced nerfs and the UNANNOUNCED ones went live anyway. </p><p>Now, why complain?  SoE does not admit they make mistakes.  Something becomes a "BUG" then it gets "FIXED". </p><p>You want to hear us complain in groups.  Let me tell you WHY we're not complaining in groups.  We hope to god that you don't notice and will keep inviting us back to group because you think we're still "uber" dps.  If we went around making remarks that we suck, would you invite us back to your group to carry us?</p><p> </p><p>Tobi</p><p>45 Ranger</p></div>

[xsvhrs]

I grouped with a couple of rangers yesterday. I specifically asked about the dsp, and both of them said it was noticable, but not devastating. Actually, one of them mentioned that it would be cheaper now, I guess because of poisions procing less often. Fighting alongside, they were definitly still making a big DPS impact. Both said soloing was much more difficult, but that they had not had a chance to fully explore alternative soloing strategies.Anyways, I think it's simple over reaction by many people. somethign will probably need to be done, such as a reasonably reliable root, in order to make soloing a viable option, but it looks to me like in a group, predators are right where they should be.<div></div>

[pikeymoose]

<div>They had another alterernative, take away your bow and leave the rest the same.  Ranged damage was broken...could have saved a lot of time with one fell swoop.</div><div> </div><div>Nerf affected a few classes..........the bow removal would have affected 1!</div><div> </div><div>anyways no joking.  Things are not that bad, don't compare to what ya had, compare to how you line up now vs the other classes.  You are not the weakest class in the game.</div><div> </div><div>Moose</div>

[DarkMirrax]

<div></div><div></div><p>/agree please undo this SOE it not only destroys rangers dps and solo abilitys it also hurt us brusiers , assassins, brigands , dirges , troubs and  swashies dont hurt everyone just because rangers did great damage .. all you have done is lowered everyone elses along with them which plain sucks .. oh and by the way not only have you nurfed procs u decide to make mobs twice as hard and give them extra abilitys aswell ? Yea Thanks</p><p> </p><p>/Rant off , flame away :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Message Edited by DarkMirrax on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p>

[Hipp]

All I hear from some rangers is complaining about how their dps has been hit so hard. Other rangers are fine, they continue on and play their class.I play an assassin, your evil counterpart. I as well am tier 1 dps. with all master 1's and adept 3's I could not keep up with a ranger in dps hard as I tried. They were always at least a few hundred dps above me.parseing rangers after this "nerf" I've seen that they are doing dps just a little above me. Not too much. That to me sounds about right.you're worrying about your soloing. You can still kite. You have a root you can lay down. heavy damage attacks you can launch for stealth not having to be in melee range.compare to assassins now. we have to be close range to use our skills. It is possible to deathly blade our opponent or assassinate in melee combat but the timing is not easy. we have to be beaten on to do damage. Cheapshot is useful but not on any above a no arrow mob. (allows us to get some back attacks off, but rangers can use this utility too).besides that assassins have most out dps cut off while soloing due to not being able to pull off back attacks. All of this while taking melee damage.As for kiting, we can but not very well, we have 3 ranged CA's, 2 we have to be behind the mob, useless when kiting. and a double shot CA that does very low damage 350 or so a hit.if you're worried about not outright killing the mob before you get hit, buy life tap poisons.If you're worried about your poison not procing on multi-attack CA, don't be, assassins don't even get multi-attacks and we can't even proc off our off-hand weapon.As for raids, you parse the same as us now assuming we don't have to joust the mob, then you [Removed for Content] us.A lot of people have been talking about solo content as well. ya there is solo content and rangers can still do it. At 62 I kitted a 67 single up arrow mob (orange con) using just my bows auto attack, If I can do that then a range definatly can. So what can't you solo? heroics? last I checked heroics was group content. If you wanna talk about heroics, assassins can barly solo max greens. But I don't mind that. Doesn't bother me. if I want to knock out heroics I duo with a healer. we are meant for max damage, not the ability to solo group mobs.Anyways I'm not trying to complain about my class, I like it and I play it. All I'm trying to say is look whats around you as well. deal with what they throw you and adapt. If they are really underpowering you, then they must be underpowering us too and it will effect the game to the point where some encouters would be unbeatable right? if that happened they'd change it. Otherwise, I suggest you do what I do. Work as hard as you can to be the best dps you can with the hand you are dealt.If I missed any issues let me know.- Hippen 63 Assassin of Nek<div></div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><div>Disagree Raistlan, bad post!</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>This game IS all about team work.  Welcome to and Massivly Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.  Notice the Multiplayer part.</div><div> </div><div>Lukily for us SOE is nice and have included some solo mobs, because they are not stupid and know now everyone is going to be able to find a group all the time.</div>

[Hipp]

<div></div><font color="#ffffff">yea.. and wizards and assassins can one shot solo mobs.. your point?</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">This is gonna be fun to point out to you.</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassinate Master 1: max around 7500 damage</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Sniper shot Master 1:  max around 7500 damage ......  4 second stun, knock back, vision blur</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">and guess what, they're both on 15 min reuse timers. Rangers can 1 shot mobs just as well as we can. Your point?</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Hippen on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:12 AM</span></p>

[Terran]

You know guys this whining about the ranger nerf is getting out of control.  I have a ranger main that is 49, and admittedly I can't solo heroics anymore that are surrounded by aggro mobs, but I can still kite if there is no aggro in the immeadiate vicinity.  I might not be able to one shot white or low yellow mobs but I can still get them into the red. Yes this nerf hurt, but it not the end of rangers.  Instead of far out dpsing my assassin friend I am now about equal.  Much to his relief.  So, now change your tactics and suck it up.  Its not that bad, but if we keep [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing so much then we are not gonna be wanted in groups by those that have heard about how bad we are now.Its really not that bad.  Deal with it, its not gonna change.[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicking ranger pre nerf, butt kicking ranger post nerf...<div></div>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>terran71100 wrote:You know guys this whining about the ranger nerf is getting out of control.  I have a ranger main that is 49, and admittedly I can't solo heroics anymore that are surrounded by aggro mobs, but I can still kite if there is no aggro in the immeadiate vicinity.  I might not be able to one shot white or low yellow mobs but I can still get them into the red. Yes this nerf hurt, but it not the end of rangers.  Instead of far out dpsing my assassin friend I am now about equal.  Much to his relief.  So, now change your tactics and suck it up.  Its not that bad, but if we keep [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing so much then <font color="#ff0033"><font color="#ffffff">we are not gonna be wanted in groups by those that</font> have heard about how bad we are now.</font><font color="#66ff66">Its really not that bad</font>.  Deal with it, its not gonna change.[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicking ranger pre nerf, butt kicking ranger post nerf...<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>hmm kinda contradicting your self here maybe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, as most know Guardians got hit real hard with LU 13. So bad that after two weeks, i cancelled both accounts. My wife (Templar) and I (Guardian) could not find a game we both enjoyed playing so before the EQ2 accounts expired, we came back and after more playing we got use to the changes and adjusted our playstyle a bit. Yea we didn't like being told to we HAD to "Relearn" our "NEW" characters but, we moved on and things were not actually as bad as first seemed.</p><p>Take it for what it's worth.. be patient and give it some time. Yes you may have to re-think your tactics and in raids you may not have as much DPS as you did before but I have grouped with several rangers since the changes and they still doing their part in bringing down the mobs..  just a bit slower <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vanshon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:<span><blockquote><div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>I also think the large proportion of the game that are casual players, who solo quite a bit, would object to your statement as well. <hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Well said Raistlan...</p><p>I fall in that category with Work (9-5), School (MBA), and a new kid (1 year old) - I find myself able to get a mental break when I solo.</p><p>I'm in a fantastic guild as an officer, and group on many occasions when I can schedule it - but I've got one thig to say.</p><p><font size="5">I love to Solo!</font></p><p>I feel like I'm taking on the wild alone and self-sufficient. Everyone in my guild knows and respects this as we have been together since the early days of EQ (The Beastlord class was the ultimate in a Solo class - btw).</p><p>Anyway - I'd agree that folks who continue to say this is a team based game need to realize that I can respect them enjoying team play, but respect the solo folks as well.</p><p>I pay for this monthly to get away from the "team" sometimes and get lost in the woods - not sure what is about to clobber me around the corner - or what treasures I'll discover ALONE.</p><p>It's my game style and I do think a balance between the two types is required...</p></blockquote>

[Vanshon]

<div></div><div><p><span>Weird... what does Multiplayer have to do with Solo or Grouping styles?</span></p><p><span>Multiplayer just purely means an environment loaded with other players (of which many ARE soloing and many ARE grouping).</span></p><p><span>Why would SOE spends money on adding more solo content if it were not supported (I mean they have a whole team dedicated to solo content)?</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Answer: The HUGE number of solo players they hope to keep interested.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Now I'm not knocking all of you 15 year olds who adamantly claim the game is for team play - I mean once you’ve done your chores - there's plenty </span></p><p><span>of time for game play (not like your going to better yourselves via homework or Whoa - team sports...)</span></p><p><span>But for those of us who are in the real world - dealing with the real world - and have limited play time.</span></p><p><span>Try to respect our game play style...</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>I know that the adult players who love to group respect that there is such a thing as a solo style, why cant you?</span></p><p><span>We are the ones who are paying for the subscription - not our parents...</span></p></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Kthaara]

<div></div><div>...</div><p>Message Edited by Kthaara on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:34 AM</span></p>