Another question on DPS tiers

[Karvar]

<div></div><div></div><p>Quick question … Can anyone tell me what the DPS range should be for each tier?? Has a developer posted what their DPS goal ranges are??</p><p> </p><p>I know I do 550 dps to up to 1050 dps… depending on the fight and length of fight .. will not get into burst DPS in a 10 sec fight… ( yes I am a ranger)</p><p> </p><p>So what is the range to be? These are guesses….</p><p> </p><p>Tier 1 = 500 dps to 700 dps</p><p>Tier 2 = 300 dps to 500 dps</p><p>Tier 3 = 100 dps to 300 dps</p><p> </p><p>Do these look like realistic numbers that they may be shooting for? <span> </span>Can someone please post if they have better information or maybe a post by a dev that outlines this..</p><p> </p><p>What I would like to do is see what the ranges are and then go look and see who is falling into these ranges.. We have a god king raid tonight and it would be a great place to check and see where the vision and reality meet on the tier system…</p><p> </p><p>Karvar Blackhawk</p><p>ranger</p><p>unrest</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by Karvar on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:00 AM</span></p>

[xsvhrs]

Well, I know that Ragers were doing up to 4000 dps.Obviously, that's not right.<div></div>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:Well, I know that Ragers were doing up to 4000 dps.Obviously, that's not right.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Go I wish BG had never posted  that number. We have no idea what context it comes in and from some of his subsequent posts it seems they might have no idea either. This sound familiar</div><div> </div><div>"If Rangers are doing 55% of their damage from procs, then something else is wrong"</div><div> </div><div>I can do 4000 dps as well with Storm of Arrows on a group of 4 triple down mobs. If they are doing 4000dps in extended fights ( which I doubt) then yes something is wrong. But stop wielding that number like it is the end all and be all of the ranger discussion.</div><div> </div><div>Elbryan60 Ranger</div>

[Karvar]

<div>Umm no you know that a DEV posted that a ranger in Beta was doing that ... we have no idea what allowed the ranger to do that... he stated that it was something to do with AA and other issues ... Are you aware that in Beta there was a bug that allowed beta players to have every AA skill in every AA line maxed all at once? ... well it is true and i have one myself to prove it ... So was that ranger that did the 4k dps ... one of those char?  a char that has no shot in reality to be on a live server ... was this 4k dammage done in 10 sec? or over a 5 min fight? come on we need some info... not a post ranger was doing 4k dps ... and then it s ungodly fact that can never be investigated..</div><div> </div><div>but that was not my question ... my question was what are the ranges for the teirs?</div><div> </div><div>karvar</div>

[xsvhrs]

It guess I should have said that with a smilie face? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Joking. You know, Ha ha.I think the numbers the OP posted are a little low, all the way around.<div></div>

[xsvhrs]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Umm no you know that a DEV posted that a ranger in Beta was doing that ...<hr size="2" width="100%">No he didn't. Jeez, talk about an exaggeration.He said that RANGERS (you know, the plural form of the word Ranger) were doing up to that much.And yes, I'm aware that it was on beta, the testing envoirnment for the production servers.<div></div>

[Karvar]

<div>Dude i am a ranger on beta .. i got 2 of them for that fact...a lvl 60 one and a lvl 65 one ... and there is about 8 in the guild i am in on beta ... and most of them are lvl 70 ... not one ... not one of them are even coming close to those numbers...  so please..</div>

[xsvhrs]

So please what?Are you calling BG a liar? That's kinda rude.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div>I'm saying that he distorts the facts... I'm sure he could quote figures for some classes in an AE fight in excess of 4k

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:Well, I know that Ragers were doing up to 4000 dps.Obviously, that's not right.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>AAAAAARG! hehe  <ok done venting></p><p>posting an insane number like that without details is worthless pixels on anyone's puter screen.</p><p>My warlock can get numbers like that on green multimob encounters.</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><p>What is ironic is rangers would start a thread in Rangah forumn boasting of feats like this.  I think this is where alot of envy comes from.  These numbers are not easily achieved.  Planets have to be line etc....</p><p>this in no way depicts what dps a ranger does.</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:So please what?Are you calling BG a liar? That's kinda rude.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, Blackguard is a liar, I said it and I mean it.</p><p>Out of context Any class can do 4000DPS, I've seen warlocks parse 5000dps, and Conjurers Parse 10000 DPS.</p><p>Claiming that Rangers "DO" 4000DPS is a massive distortion of the truth. My Level 70 Ranger Copy, with FULL AA's and T7 Masters, could barely break 2000dps, and that was only in a very specific group setup and not something that happens often.</p><p>Everyone agree's that Ranger's needed to be toned down, but using numbers based on Bugged AA's and circumspect encounters then claiming it's the norm is just one big deception.</p><p> </p>

[Karvar]

<div></div><div>Ok the off topic posts aside....</div><div> </div><div>I take it that no one knows what the ranges are for SOE's vision of each tier bracket.... reguardless of who is in what...</div><div> </div><div>if anyone has some info about the ranges that SOE's is trying to achive on each Tier Please Post it...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also ... does anyone have a DPS range breakdown on each class for as the classes are right now?</div><div> </div><div>Example  lvl 60 Pally ... 250dps to 400 dps...(on average)  Example..</div><div> </div><div>this is the kinda data i am intrested in .. i know SOE must have there version of it for there development team... not sure they would ever share that with us...</div><p>Message Edited by Karvar on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:19 AM</span></p>

[xsvhrs]

<div></div><span>The only way to do that type of aggregation would be to take significant samples from thousands of subjects.Parse numbers from a few raids is not nearly sufficient. It would have to be more like parse numbers from 10 different raids from 100 different guilds on all servers.The developement team are the only ones that have access to that much data.<blockquote><hr>Karvar wrote:<div></div><div>Ok the off topic posts aside....</div><div> </div><div>I take it that no one knows what the ranges are for SOE's vision of each tier bracket.... reguardless of who is in what...</div><div> </div><div>if anyone has some info about the ranges that SOE's is trying to achive on each Tier Please Post it...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also ... does anyone have a DPS range breakdown on each class for as the classes are right now?</div><div> </div><div>Example  lvl 60 Pally ... 250dps to 400 dps...(on average)  Example..</div><div> </div><div>this is the kinda data i am intrested in .. i know SOE must have there version of it for there development team... not sure they would ever share that with us...</div><p>Message Edited by Karvar on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:19 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by xsvhrs on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:42 AM</span></p>

[Karvar]

<div></div><div><p><span>Xsvhrs on that i agree with you about how hard it would be to get this data ... guess that is why i think it is the most important question to be answered of all..</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>What is the vision range.... and what is the current reality.... for everyone...</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>it is really the only fair way to approach all this ... and the reason i asked in my original post have anyone seen the DEV post anywhere what their vision range for each tier is ... to help answer one side of the equation...</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>as for the reality side .. well that would be up to us as a community to work together and start crunching numbers and logs... to get the other side .. i know  the ranger community does similar stuff as has been posted many times before in other threads...</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>but to me this is where this evaluation needs to start with base line information about all classes..</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Karvar<font color="#000000"></font></span></p></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xsvhrs wrote:<div></div><span>The only way to do that type of aggregation would be to take significant samples from thousands of subjects.Parse numbers from a few raids is not nearly sufficient. It would have to be more like parse numbers from 10 different raids from 100 different guilds on all servers.The developement team are the only ones that have access to that much data.<blockquote><hr>Karvar wrote:<div></div><div>Ok the off topic posts aside....</div><div> </div><div>I take it that no one knows what the ranges are for SOE's vision of each tier bracket.... reguardless of who is in what...</div><div> </div><div>if anyone has some info about the ranges that SOE's is trying to achive on each Tier Please Post it...</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also ... does anyone have a DPS range breakdown on each class for as the classes are right now?</div><div> </div><div>Example  lvl 60 Pally ... 250dps to 400 dps...(on average)  Example..</div><div> </div><div>this is the kinda data i am intrested in .. i know SOE must have there version of it for there development team... not sure they would ever share that with us...</div><p>Message Edited by Karvar on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:19 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by xsvhrs on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:42 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not so sure the dev team has that kind of data.  They may be able to set EQ into some kind of debug mode where it would log fight data in great detail but I would imagine that would be a huge load on the servers.  I think they track limited information but I would be suprised if it is as detailed as a client log.</p><p>funny thing about players.... No two players are the same.  Alot of rangers don't know Int effects proc damage... Alot don't know high delay bow makes you proc more...  I have seen rangers near level 50 that still have not heard of poisons.</p><p>Broad ranger testing will probably prove that rangers in current state are closer than most think to being balanced.  Rangers that know how to maximise dps has the ability more so than anyother class i think to boost thier dps.</p><p>In summary it would be very difficult to measure ranger balance by looking at a broad range of subjects.</p><p> </p>

[Karvar]

<div></div><p><span>But how could anyone justify any change to any class at any time, if they did not have a solid baseline data to work from?  Seriously, modifications to this game mechanics need to be done on solid data base queries... </span></p><p><span>What is my vision for the tiers... </span></p><p><span>how does my Tiers perform against  mob x ... mob z ... mob y...  then look and see how far am i off from my original vision... and is that deviation within acceptable ranges.. </span></p><p><span>Otherwise your just coding based off which group screams the loudest and has the most insider access.. i know it seems they may be doing this .. but i got to believe a game that is based on code and ratios and math ... have provable trends and a that developers of such games must have tools to measure and analysis these parameters ... it is just looking for trouble and failure to not have such tools..</span></p><p> </p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Karvar wrote:<div></div><p><span>But how could anyone justify any change to any class at any time, if they did not have a solid baseline data to work from?  Seriously, modifications to this game mechanics need to be done on solid data base queries... </span></p><p><span>What is my vision for the tiers... </span></p><p><span>how does my Tiers perform against  mob x ... mob z ... mob y...  then look and see how far am i off from my original vision... and is that deviation within acceptable ranges.. </span></p><p><span>Otherwise your just coding based off which group screams the loudest and has the most insider access.. i know it seems they may be doing this .. but i got to believe a game that is based on code and ratios and math ... have provable trends and a that developers of such games must have tools to measure and analysis these parameters ... it is just looking for trouble and failure to not have such tools..</span></p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>That is just the thing...  fixes and balance is achieved by the samples they do collect.  Who is to say that a sample collected is from a mediochre player or an elite player.  Raid parses are very different from group and solo parses.  I can appreciate the intracacies that is software development and can honestly say that even if they knew EXACTLY where dps needed to be sofware sometimes does not always co-operate with your changes.  Eq balance is comprised of an infinite amount variables that intertwine and a simple change to something that seems innocent will have detrimental effects to something else.  I think this is the category the proc change falls into.</p><p>feeback and customer satisfaction I'm sure plays a role in change making descisions [ crying and whining in some opionions] but with all the variables involved class balance with being unique is not a tangable figure you can actually measure but rather like cooking a good pot of chille.  You add stuff... subtract stuff... taste... repeat until you are happy with it.  It is never perfect but you keep going till satisfied.</p><p> </p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div>I'm saying that he distorts the facts... I'm sure he could quote figures for some classes in an AE fight in excess of 4k<hr></blockquote><p>No one is distorting the numbers that are caluated every day in raids where rangers are easily outdamaging other Tier1 classes by 300 or more DPS on the Live servers.  Open your eyes, all those "new" 60th level rangers coming out of the woodwork weren't playing them because they liked the class.  They played it because of the pure power of damage that rangers provided to groups or raids.</p><p>Frankly who cares about the  4k DPS quote.  But in a way it finally showed the Devs that ranger DPS was out of wack and needed to be fixed before AA made it worse.  </p><p>I reallly didnt want to see 5-6+ rangers in  a raid just to trivialize raid content.   I don't know how often I heard this joke that 1 ranger was just as good or better then 2 wizards.  Because in raid Parsers, rangers easily doubled and sometimes tripled the DPS of our wizards and warlocks.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:32 PM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><p>What is ironic is rangers would start a thread in Rangah forumn boasting of feats like this.  I think this is where alot of envy comes from.  These numbers are not easily achieved.  Planets have to be line etc....</p><p>this in no way depicts what dps a ranger does.</p><hr></blockquote>i think your a little confused with the Bruiser forums or the Monk forums wich has threads boasting what they could solo .. the Ranger forums have up until now been a nice peaceful place full of helpful people.. I dont recall any rangers creating threads boasting of their uber DPS .. all of which is situational.</span></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><div></div><p>I can think of at least one post in the ranger forumns tittled <font color="#ff0000">Woot 3000 dps!</font>  You would have to sift through half the whole thread before you realized what he needed to do that and said ohhhh very situational.</p><p> </p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=18680&query.id=0#M18680">edited to add link to example post</a></p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Niuan on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:52 AM</span></p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><p>What is ironic is rangers would start a thread in Rangah forumn boasting of feats like this.  I think this is where alot of envy comes from.  These numbers are not easily achieved.  Planets have to be line etc....</p><p>this in no way depicts what dps a ranger does.</p><hr></blockquote>i think your a little confused with the Bruiser forums or the Monk forums wich has threads boasting what they could solo .. the Ranger forums have up until now been a nice peaceful place full of helpful people.. I dont recall any rangers creating threads boasting of their uber DPS ..<strong> all of which is situational.</strong></span></div><hr></blockquote>All of which is situational?! [Removed for Content].   Ranger DPS situational, yeah if the ranger is being lazy. LOL this has got to be the craziest line ever come out of anyone. :smileyvery-happy:

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div>All of which is situational?! [Removed for Content].   Ranger DPS situational, yeah if the ranger is being lazy. LOL this has got to be the craziest line ever come out of anyone. :smileyvery-happy:<hr></div></blockquote></blockquote>uhhh  Ranger dps at the levels discussed is very situational....  Anyone who <font size="4">actually plays a ranger</font> would agree with that.

[Evian1]

Since we're on the subject of dps tiers..I'm curious to know why Wizards are tier 2 dps and warlocks tier 3..when mages give up the most possible for damage ? I know its always been the plan for certain scouts to be tier 1 dps..but why ? they have much more utility then a wizard or warlock..warlocks regularly get between 150-200 dps on single targets, up to 400+ dps on grouped mobs in 50+ situations, where as wizards can get about 350+dps on grouped mobs and 300-400 dps on a single target. shouldn't wizards AND warlocks both be tier 1 dps since that is their entire purpose ? just my 2cp.<div></div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Evian1 wrote:I know its always been the plan for certain scouts to be tier 1 dps..but why ? they have much more utility then a wizard or warlock..<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Why? Because unlike mages and any other ranged dps class we have to be in the thick of battle busting our butts jousting aes and with the requirement of having 3 different sets of armor for each kind of resist. Mages do great damage as they are, scouts have to buy debuff and damage poisons as well as arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Utility? Yeah let me guess.. another mage that addresses CAs like Deadfall as utility and wants Tracking to be nerfed. Get over it, Scouts deserve to be t1 / t2 dps as much or more than mages.</div>

[MexStrat]

<div></div><p>Asking to put specific numbers on the tiers is ridiculous.  You have to take into account what level you are talking about. </p><p> </p><p>If you specificly say what would the range for a tier 1 dps at level 60.  I could speculate to say 750-1000. </p><p>Now that is going to be hugely different from the Tier 1 dps at level 50 and level 40 and so on.  </p><p> </p><p>I hate speaking for others but i feel SOE set up the tiers as a broad generalization to Slot certain classes in the same area dps wise.  i.e predators and Sorcerers are tier 1 dps.   they should be doing around the same dps.  (not on one specific mob or one encounter or even on day of events, but over the long haul of the game)  of course there will be some encounters a warlock could be devistating, and a mob were the assassin gets there big hits to connect. </p><p> </p>

[Evian1]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaiser Sigma wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Evian1 wrote:I know its always been the plan for certain scouts to be tier 1 dps..but why ? they have much more utility then a wizard or warlock..<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Why? Because unlike mages and any other ranged dps class we have to be in the thick of battle busting our butts jousting aes and with the requirement of having 3 different sets of armor for each kind of resist. Mages do great damage as they are, scouts have to buy debuff and damage poisons as well as arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Utility? Yeah let me guess.. another mage that addresses CAs like Deadfall as utility and wants Tracking to be nerfed. Get over it, Scouts deserve to be t1 / t2 dps as much or more than mages.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry but mages without upgraded skills, without max int are screwed. Do you realize that if a mage doesnt have max int, everytime they level their spells drastically loose damage ?Mages are every bit as reliant on equipment as scouts but get less benefit, we still die in one or two hits, my mitigation is 700 selfbuffed at lvl 54..700..a bruiser in leather armor has atleast 1.5k and over 50% avoidance...mages have much lower avoidance than that.and i'm not saying all mages in general, im saying wizards and warlocks. They should be on par with assasins and rangers if not a bit higher, or atleast given something to set them apart. At the moment a ranger can do everything a wizard can and better.Also don't forget that every scout has sustained damage, when they run out of power they can melee, when a mage is out of power they're dead in the water.As for great damage ? all these rangers are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about their damage being situational...what about the fact that nukes generate much more aggro then a ranger does ? the fact that only a select few tanks can keep aggro on a wizard or warlock who is chain casting (and chain casting only gets you to about 400dps anyway)Next lets talk about aggro reduction...scouts have a multitude of different types of aggro reduction, the evade line is a straight aggro debuff...concussive is a proc, sure it helps, but you still have to cast the spell (which isnt exactly a short cast time) and then cast a hostile spell for it to go off. We have an oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] aggro reducer that is useless and only gets rid of about 400 aggo anyway. Assasins have aggro transfer buffs.So before you start saying scouts deserve to be doing more damage then a wizard or warlock, play one and realize how screwed up the formula for a mages damage is, then maybe you'll shut up about how sad and pathetic scouts are with their ungodly damage.</span></div>

[FrankMullen]

<div></div><p>Don't know about other guilds but in our guild which is a raid guild and all level 60 the dps of certain classes is roughly like this:</p><p> </p><p>Ranger: 1.1 k</p><p>Wizard: 700</p><p>Warlock:: 650</p><p>Assassin: 600</p><p>Brigand: 500</p><p>Monk and Bruiser: 400</p><p> </p><p>We have no conjuror to test and these numbers are an estimate (we do parse all fights in raids though and sometimes warlocks go way higher against groups)</p>

[Al]

<div><blockquote><hr>FrankMullen wrote:<div></div><p>Don't know about other guilds but in our guild which is a raid guild and all level 60 the dps of certain classes is roughly like this:</p><p> </p><p>Ranger: 1.1 k</p><p>Wizard: 700</p><p>Warlock:: 650</p><p>Assassin: 600</p><p>Brigand: 500</p><p>Monk and Bruiser: 400</p><p> </p><p>We have no conjuror to test and these numbers are an estimate (we do parse all fights in raids though and sometimes warlocks go way higher against groups)</p><hr></blockquote>Your assassin sucks, tell him to learn how to play his class. =p I did 1800dps on foreman in gates last time we went in there, short fight but whatever. I can do 1000+ on a 5 min fights.</div>

[Evian1]

your bruiser sucks too..bruisers are one of the top dps classes out there, <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they should learn to play too.<div></div>

[Kaiser Sigma]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>Your assassin sucks, tell him to learn how to play his class. =p I did 1800dps on foreman in gates last time we went in there, short fight but whatever. I can do 1000+ on a 5 min fights.</div><hr></blockquote>I'd like to know the set up of your group and the gear you were using. 1.8k is a number I've never seen on an assassin but I do acknowledge 600 dps on a single target is a bit low.. normally I score 750 - 900. 1k if they give me a coercer. But unbuffed we rarely break the 1k mark.<p>Message Edited by Kaiser Sigma on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:00 PM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div>yea rangers were doing 4000dps firing off a 15 minute refresh CA that does 4500 damage on a mob that has 4000 hp ... /sigh niavity is crazy..</div>