Users like consistency, and other epiphanies...

[sliderhouserules]

<div></div><div></div>I'm posting because I care about this game. I played EQ1 from shortly after release until after PoP was released. I played SWG at release but quit after not very long. I had a stint with DAoC for a while in there too, but that was short-lived as well. After my frustrating experiences with those games I decided to take a break from MMOs -- and I made up my mind to never play another SOE game. I kept my eye on the upcoming WoW and planned to play that when it came out. But then I started persuing the EQ2 forums during development and I fell in love with the ideas and plans for this game. They said they were targetting people like me (ex-EQ1 players) and the things they said they were going to do with the game made that more than just a marketing statement. My wife (new to MMOs) and I bought this game at release and now enjoy playing it together several nights a week. I have never purchased a copy of WoW.I find myself, however, often frustrated by the changes made to EQ2. I know change is constant in MMOs, I'm not naive. I expect change and I think it can be good. What I don't think is good is the trend for (over) reactionary changes. Instead of tweaking and adjusting, things are thrown out and completely redone. I don't want to complain about specific changes, so I'll just say that many changes come across this way. And I don't think it's a good thing.My main point is that one of the pillars of good software design is consistency. Consistency brings familiarity, it fosters comfort, it engenders proficiency. The level of importance to give to it is variable, certainly, but that does not change the fact that it is core to good design. I, for one, like best the software that has a high level of consistency.It saddens me, then, when I see how many changes made to this game completely go against consistency. Things well established in the game, things we have grown accustomed to as players, things we have come to <b>*like*</b> as players -- why are they so easily thrown out?I have a particular suggestion so let me talk specifically about the "devaluation" of crafting briefly. For those of you that just rolled your eyes, bear with me for a minute.There are problems with the crafting system. There are problems with the relative power of crafted items. I am not arguing these points. But there did not need to be wholesale, gut-the-system changes. There is a level of consistency firmly established with current tiers and systems and items that I feel should have greater weight in decision making.My notable epiphany has to do with the "picking at rocks" problem. Legendary crafted gear is currently highly desirable. Yet to get it you either have to spend lots of time picking at rocks, or you have to buy stuff from people that have done just that. That is not fun, I agree. But there are some very good aspects to the way the progression model works, and it seems these things are being significantly changed for T7, consistency be damned.I'm pretty sure (I could be wrong) that Moorgard has stated that Legendary gear is supposed to be the stepping stone to raiding and Fabled loot for any given tier. If you have Fabled gear from the previous tier then you should be able to skip this stepping stone (IE Fabled gear from the previous tier should be as good as or better than Legendary gear from the current tier). In the absence of nice equipment that drops from mobs, Legendary crafted has become the favored equipment. I think this factor effected the mudflation effect for T6 gear that made it overpowered. (I think someone also just simply dropped the ball -- previous tiers had much better relative balance.) But it is important to examine why it is overpowered. We've been told, "because it's so easy to get." You don't have to fight creatures, you have to pick at rocks. Ok. But which part of that is the problem? The fact that it's overpowered and highly desirable, or the fact that you have to pick at rocks to get it? The changes coming down the pipe, it seems to me, are knee-jerk reactions to the power and desirability part, but I think the problem wholly lies in how relatively easy the gear is to get.So I have a suggestion (yes this is my epiphany). Why not move rare crafting raws off the harvest nodes and put them in chests (where they used to often be found)?The chance to get a rare harvest from a harvest node could be retained, but lowered, if it is not desirable to remove them altogether. The important point is that approaching the issue from this angle allows the problems to be addressed while retaining consistent and likeable aspects of the game.If I have to kill mobs to get rare crafting raws then I'm going to be encouraging my group to stay together after we've run through the Roost, instead of breaking up because we've lost a few members and the rest of us will go run solo writs and harvest along the cliffs in SS. What if those worthless (there's a reason we use the word "trash" when we say vendor trash) armor pieces that keep dropping in wooden chests were replaced with a rare crafting raw once in a while? How would that change people's satisfaction with adventuring loot? I honestly think it would solve a myriad of problems: Legendary crafted gear too easily attainable, adventure loots laughable for the most part (especially in DoF, in general), crafters concerned that they're losing value and viability. This small tweak type of change would address problems, while retaining the consistency of how the game has been made to work up to this point.Please consider approaching changes more in this manner in the future. The identity and philosophy of EQ2 is a large part of why many of us play. Paying attention to consistency fosters our desire to continue to play.These are simply some of my opinions, please feel free to set me straight on any particular point.<p>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:33 AM</span></p>

[Selene1]

personally i dont think its a good idea to decrease the drop chance of rares from harvesting by a lot. At this moment a lot of the people who harvest do so only for the rares. These people either destroy the resources they get (to bad, but oh wel) or they sell it. This makes resources available to crafters. Not every crafter can go out out and harvest all he needs, either because their crafting level is ahead of their adventuring level or because they need a very large amount of resources. If rares would be sporadic on the nodes but  'easy' to get on mobs, these people will start having problems getting their resources. The result? everything gets more expensive.<div></div>

[Thay]

<font size="3" color="#99ff33">So I have a suggestion (yes this is my epiphany). Why not move rare crafting raws off the harvest nodes and put them in chests (where they used to often be found)?<font color="#0099ff"><b>Uhm...No.</b></font></font><div></div>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Testicleese wrote:<font size="3" color="#99ff33">So I have a suggestion (yes this is my epiphany). Why not move rare crafting raws off the harvest nodes and put them in chests (where they used to often be found)?<font color="#0099ff"><b>Uhm...No.</b></font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Uhm, because they do drop in chests, just in T6 they don't drop at all in non-raid instances for some odd reason.

[sliderhouserules]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Testicleese wrote:<font size="3" color="#99ff33"><font size="2">So I have a suggestion (yes this is my epiphany). Why not move rare crafting raws off the harvest nodes and put them in chests (where they used to often be found)?</font><font size="2" color="#0099ff"><b>Uhm...No.</b></font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>This was not my main point, so I have removed the emphasis on the text. This was one suggested way to approach a problem, as an alternative to the apparent solutions on the horizon that I don't like very much.Please read my entire post instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to one of my fine points.</span></div>

[ilucife]

i agree with you when you talk about drastic changeshowever, and thanks for bringing this up for me....if everyone wants crafted rare equip, b/c it sooooo much better than most loot, wouldnt they be swamped with work... hell i know i waited for 2 weeks to find someone that could make me 2 cobalt slashers,i think the decline in work for crafters comes from the fact that alot of ppl are just now really cracking into T6 raids and just getting better loot, (to equip, twink, etc.) when DoF came out they had ALOT of work from all the ppl that had been lvl 50 before the expansion, then from the influx of new players. now thats slowing down.dropped loot(non fabled of couse) in t6 kinda sucked i attuned 2 things all the through (+12 str bracers) and alot of stuff that dropped in most of the instances was just sold to the vendor. on top of that most quest items werent to useful eiterh (resists teh exception)<div></div>

[Screamin' 1]

/nod to the OP. I would add that there should be far more details and clear communication from the publisher about big changes in the form of FAQs on the main site, as opposed to sprinkling information around on these forums or relying on the player community to post it.I will say, I played the island for the first time last night, and the way it is set up to help noobs learn the game is quite nice. I would love to see a similar effort on this site for details on changes. For example, the level 1-19 spell list is *still* not up under the class guide, the old progression is still there. There is no excuse for that, it should have been published weeks before LU19 went live.Here's the big question about t7 armor and jewelery stats: What kind of resists will I be sporting if I keep my t6 legendary, or acquire some t6 fabled, then upgrade to t7 jewelery? I won't have a high stamina and str, but as a MT against a caster, I would think I would do pretty well.So, the only thing that makes sense is that the changes will retroactively affect all tiers or else a combo of t6 legendary/fabled armor and t7 jewelry will be imbalancing. In fact, there could be balance problems in the negative direction when upgrading one or two pieces at a time. This is all speculation of course, this is still in Beta, but with release only a week away (unless they moved it back) they have to go gold within a few days to get the product to the stores.

[Dasein]

<div></div>EQ2 has been remarkably consistent with regards to the changes made. The game has become more consistent in terms of having single guiding principles apply across multiple tiers and scale as new tiers are added. What we see is change from inconsistent systems to consistent ones - the removal of the archtype -> class -> subclass progression and the combat revamp are both examples of this increased consistence. Loot changes to make loot scale across tiers is another example of improved consistency.

[sliderhouserules]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:EQ2 has been remarkably consistent with regards to the changes made. The game has become more consistent in terms of having single guiding principles apply across multiple tiers and scale as new tiers are added. <font color="#99ff66"><b>What we see is change from inconsistent systems to consistent ones</b></font> - the removal of the archtype -> class -> subclass progression and the combat revamp are both examples of this increased consistence. Loot changes to make loot scale across tiers is another example of improved consistency.<hr></blockquote>While I agree this is a valid way to look at things, it is sometimes acceptable to leave some </span><span>(minorly inconsistent) </span><span>things in place, or adjust the way you transition to a new system because of the fact that the old system has been in the game and users have gotten used to it and/or come to like it.</span><span>* Changing imbued rings, twice -- this is inconsistent. The stats should have been adjusted and the functionality/usefulness of the rings retained. Instead they're changing them completely, and on top of that, foolishly (sorry to be harsh) adding new, potentially unbalancing effects to these items. Why not just leave them alone save for adjusting the stats?</span><span>* Changing T7 rare crafted to non-legendary -- this is inconsistent. The clear progression has been common to legendary to fabled, with fabled from the previous tier allowing you to skip to the fabled in the current tier. Moving rare crafted out of the legendary tier will leave a gap that needs to be filled by legendary dropped/quested equipment. I would rather they simply change the way one acquires rare crafting raws, and leave the rare crafted equipment in the legendary tier. I greatly enjoy obtaining a rare crafting raw and either taking it to someone to have something useful made from it, or making something useful from it myself. Being able to obtain these rare crafting raws in a more adventurous manner (rather than picking at rocks) would address most of the problems with tier (common vs. legendary vs. fabled etc.) imbalance.These are just the top of the list, but there are many more. Some changes are consistent, you bet. Some changes are needed to get game systems to a more consistent and extensible state (I love LU13 and what it did for the game). But not all changes require wholesale revamps to existing mechanics -- this is harmful from a game consistency basis. This is my whole point. You may disagree with what I'd like to see them change in the game, but I don't think you can disagree with that main point that I'm trying to make. If you can, I'd like to hear your rationale, honestly.</span></div><p>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:56 AM</span></p>

[Grace37]

lets see what the changes are before we complain about them.frankly i beleve the drop rate on rare meterals is a bit high and with nodes in some areas like SS being gobbled up and the zone havieng so many harvesters and not as much nodes makes it almost impossable to get any rares at all. just the few really high players that tend to snag nodes from people and node hog tend to get more then one in any given time. thoe of us that are still kos to mobs in the areas try to get nodes but get attacked and the guys thet con all the mobs as grey to them swoop down and snag all the node has t o offer before we can get out of battlei played a free mmo called "Rubies of Eventide" and in that game to go mineing you had to go into a cave and use a pick you purchased to mine the walls and floors the quality of the pick determined how long you could mine before it needed repairing or replacement. likewise you had to chop down little trees and ect ect all with the nessassary purchased tools its sounds so easy. people could pack into these caves and such and go to town and there was enough for all to mine if you mined too long at any certin spot it would tell you it was all mined out (for now)now imagen if you could go into BB and find a good spot and mine the walls and such like the gnolls do or you could find a certin type of tree and chop at it for that kind of wood, or what if to get berrys you had to find a berry bush of that type or an apple you had to go to what ever zone apples are native to and had to climb or use what ever tool to get the apples out of it, what if for trapping you really had to set up a certin type of trap (depending on what kind of creature your trapping) and bait it and wait till one wonders onto it the trap springs and poof there is the skin or meat you need.sorry for going on a rant but i just had to get these ideas off my chest.Happy Valentines DayGeorga<p>Message Edited by Grace37 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:08 AM</span></p>