Concerning changes to Crusader range spells

[troodon311]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><hr></div><div>Blackguard wrote:</div><div> </div><div> -Ranged Shadowknight spells can now be interrupted as normal.</div><div><hr></div><div> </div></blockquote><div>I disagree with the change allowing Paladin and Shadow Knight ranged spells to be interrupted by moving (info from here: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=21430" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=21430</a> "On beta they can't be cast while moving." )</div><div> </div><div>Crusaders do not have bows or other ranged weapons, we rely on spells to pull from a distance.  Even though the Shadow Knight 'Wrath' line (I cannot speak for the Paladin equivilent) has a short casting time, it would still require the Crusader to stop, make sure he has stopped to prevent interruption, and then proceed to cast the spell.  This is unnecessarily punitive towards the Crusader when one looks at the other Fighter Classes</div><div> </div><div>Other Fighter Classes have the luxury of having ranged weapons, weapons that can be used while moving.  If they can use these weapons freely to pull with while on the move (and I think they should), why can't Crusaders use their spells?  This gives neither they nor us an advantage.</div><div> </div><div>The only alternative we are left with is to use taunts to pull with.  This will require us to run closer to the mob, thus greatly increasing the risk of adds from social mobs and wanderers.  Also, the decreased distance between the puller and his quarry gives less safety on the run back.  One untimely stun and the puller can end up dead very quickly, even more so when he starts out closer to the mob.</div><div> </div><div>Please reconsider it.  I've got a lot of grinding ahead of me now with KoS coming out, and pulling is tedious enough without having to completely stop before each mob, and nerve-racking enough without having to worry even more about adds.</div><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:57 AM</span></p>

[Caeldo]

Hello,i totally agree with the OP and his arguments. Please (!)  do not change our ranged spells to become interruptable while moving.CelimSK40, Splitpaw<div></div>

[Kawaii_Kiri]

<div></div><p>I also oppose this change wholeheartedly. However... I am also aware it will go forward anyway regardless of what is said by crusaders.</p><p>Cynical? Jaded? Yes. But I'm a Shadowknight. I doubt there are any SKs that are not. So like everything else, we'll take it on the chin and roll with it.</p><p>- Lariara</p>

[Anariale]

<div>As a Paladin, I have to agree.  Ive really come to love my DD and Group DD casting on the move.  Its something thats been in game since day 1, and there is literally no reason to change it now.  If the problem is that the spells cannot be interrupted at all, from like mobs and such hitting you, then I understand a change for THAT is in order.  However, the cast-on-the-move ability of these spells is sometihng that has always been there and is a part of the class.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Phank]

<div></div><p>This change, coming over a year after release, is total non-sense.  Pulling using our Ranged DD is something that SKs have become totally and unconsciously adept at doing.  Taking this ability away NOW is a giant step backwards and a slap in the face to everyone playing the class.</p><p>You gave us the use of Ranged stat items, basically saying, "You're not going to use a Bow because you can range attack on the move."  And now you take away the ability to pull while moving.</p><p>What else WON'T Shadowknights be able to do in the future?</p>

[Avatox]

<div></div><p>I 100% agree with the OP.  If you- SOE- messed up from the start of the game over a year ago live with it.</p><p>OR- give us a ranged WEAPON.  You have stated that we are a tank class, yet crusaders in general are no where as equal as the other tank classes.</p>

[valkyrja]

I agree with you only because you don't have bows.  But on the other hand, you are using magic.  Everyone else who uses magic cannot cast while moving. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<p>"Everyone else who uses magic cannot cast while moving."</p><p> </p><p>Thats not true</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[valkyrja]

So who else can?  I sure know my wizard cannot cast while moving.  My mystic certainly can't.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<div></div><p>Illusionists can mezz on the run</p>

[Rylight]

<div></div><p>the fact of the matter is some of our spells can be cast automatically even while running, and some of our spells can be cast only by standing still, and honestly I think it was fine just the way it was</p><p>for instance, our powerful wrath line can only be cast standing still, which seems fair enough, it has a kinda long casting time, so I could see why it could be interrupted with movement, but the coil, and anger line? it would be a real pain to stop while casting a direct damage ( I say direct damage because it has little to no casting time) spell, it would be like stop and go driving. also I think it hurts us alot to have to stop and cast our pet, considering its very tactical to cast it while somebody is running away from us.</p><p>anyways, like the OP or somebody said, it does seem unfair that this gets changed after a year, espically sense we had the feeling we knew our class.</p>

[Anariale]

<div></div><p>Has anyone actually checked the test server to see that we cant cast it on the move?</p><p> </p>

[Giral]

<div></div><p>Yes Anariale : ( it has been Checked on Test : ( and we cannot cast when moving</p><p> </p><p>the only reason for this Being?      PVP</p><p> </p><p>We dont have Bow's and now we cant cast the Few spells we could when running ,</p><p> </p><p>SK's Agro is a JOKE and now this : ( , Atleast i use to be able to get some casts on mob befor i got back to group to try to Help build agro ; ( NOW i will lose agro Much more OR die trying to Build agro away from group standing still</p>

[Baelzharon]

<div></div><p>Crusaders will never be the main raid tank, and now we're going to suck being an XP tank too?? This is why I hate PvP. SoE lied and told us that PvP would not have any effect on PvE and then they pull this on us. This nerf is going in exactly to remove kiting during a duel for Crusaders. SoE can try and give another lame excuse but that's it, and I don't want to play a PvP game. I hate PvP in MMOGs because it destroys PvE.</p><p>If the devs are going to nerf us like this then increase the range of our taunts to max spell range, or let us use bows like the other fighters.</p>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<div>I fully agree with the original poster. Our complete and utter inability to equip ranged weapons makes our ability to cast certain spells while on the move almost a necessity. It's not game unbalancing in any respect.</div>

[Proudfoot]

<span><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:So who else can?  I sure know my wizard cannot cast while moving.  My mystic certainly can't.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Some illusionists spells and all scout classes can cast while running. (not all of their spells though)</span><div></div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:So who else can?  I sure know my wizard cannot cast while moving.  My mystic certainly can't.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Your point is moot.  Crusaders have to be balanced against other Fighters, not your Wizard.  The fact that other Fighters can pull from distance while moving is what we must be concerned with, not what Mages or Priests can or can't do with their spells.</p>

[Giral]

<div>at beginning of game we had Nothing for our Ranged slot Dev's let us Equip the Orb's and Tablets in our ranged to compansate for the lack of Stat's BUT the Dev stated " this is a temporary Fix we are implimenting a ranged Item for Crusader's BUT it isn't an easy fix and will take while "</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>So when are we getting Our Ranged Item For our Ranged Slot ? is this Like shard removal : ( where you remove Something and Maybe MAYBE month's later you will impliment something Like stated about a new Death penelty that is Coming but is Also a very involved process and taking alot of time ?????</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also i never Once Saw Anybody complain that we could cast 2 or 3 skills when moving ??? other then us getting a ranged Item(NOT a Bow and or Stars/Knives PLEASE) OR PvP , what could really be the reason for removing Cast when running ?</div><div> </div><div>And we Our Caster/Tank and Some Casters Can Cast and Run So it stands to reason we can.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Rhianni]

<div>I'm a paladin.  I dont see this being that big a deal.  do you guys move that much in the 2 seconds it takes to pull?</div>

[Rylight]

<div></div><p>sure, its not that big a deal on PVE, but on PVP it could easily be the difference between life or death. When most ppl get low on life they start running, and if you cannot cast while running after them they can easily get out of your ranged radius before you can even get your spell off. you'll just be standing there building up your spell for 2 secs, then all you will get is a "target out of range" sign. and you just lost your prey.</p><p>moreover if I am fighting a zerker and he is running while shooting a bow and arrow at me, I cant really run after him as long as he keeps distance away from me. I dont want to have to stop to cast. (now I do realize we get a snare, but in the lower lvls I dont think we have it)</p>

[troodon311]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div>do you guys move that much in the 2 seconds it takes to pull?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, I move plenty.</p>

[EQ2Playa432]

<div></div><p>Wow.....just say no to not being able to move.</p><p> </p><p>WE need to move like you can move when you pull....either that or let us have throwable items and not bows...</p>

[Margen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div>I'm a paladin.  I dont see this being that big a deal.  do you guys move that much in the 2 seconds it takes to pull?</div><hr></blockquote>We use our damage spells to start HO's on the way back to the group, to build up all the aggro we can, its not like we have amends or something.

[Hysteric]

<div></div>Totally agree with the OP.  Crusaders will then be left as the only fighter without a moving ranged attack.  Either let us keep our ability to use the Coil, and Anger line on the move, or give us the use of bows.  Please reconsider your change.

[Giral]

<div></div><div>Our job is to pull and bring mobs back to group When running it's easy to see when the Tank  has been Rooted/Stunned and the healer Needs to advance out to heal the Tank  </div><div>    </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> If the Tank starts out Motionless Far away from Group , has to stand still to cast get's stunned = Not giong to Build Agro Now Tank Run's Back to Group Trying to Stay alive BUT we can't Cast Our Lifetap's Or Heinous Blessing(ward lifetap) When Running = We cant Minor Heal Ourselves We Have Low HP to begin with so when we get Back to Group Healer need's to Heal us ASAP becuase we already in the Red = Healer Pull's Agro , Group Wipe </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Our Henious Blessing And Our Lifetap's Our "Highly" Interuptable and you already needed to stay still for our Heinous Blessing, that left us a couple of castable Very low Lifetap's to Help on the run back to Group to Make up for the Way lower HP's We have</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Shadowknight's Have the Worst Agro inGame and the Lowest HP of tank's Plus Lesser Heal's Then Paladin's(our Dp's That was Already" LOW "Just Got Nerfed More Becuase we Can't Cast a few Skill's When Running)  How are we suppose to Compete We already Working like Mad just to be in Last Place of Tanks for Agro and Now this ????</div><div> </div><div>We already Far Out Dp'sed By Zereker's</div><div> </div><div>We already Out Agroed By All other Tank's</div><div> </div><div>We have Lowest Hp's and Lessser Heal's Than Pallie's</div><div> </div><div>the only thing Shadowknight we're good at was PvP and Soloing And That also Get's Nerfed with This , It was Only a couple Skill's we could Use , But those couple skill's used for almost       "     1 and a   1/2    YEARS "     : (         we're one of the tool's that Could be utilized to Grab a little Agro Or Get a Lifetap Off to keep us alive .</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Thanks SOE for listening to the community about SK's Agro problem's (And all our other Sub-Par Dp's and Buff/Debuff's) YOu guy's really Hit the Nail on the Head Great Job ,      </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>P.S. Can you atleast leave our Singel target lifetap and Our Tap Vien's Ae lifetap Castable when running So we can stay a little closer to the Tank's With More HP/Aviod         </div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:10 PM</span></p>

[Iustus]

<div>This is a <strong>big deal</strong>.</div><div> </div><div>I run and pull every day. Thousands of times per day. I have done it this way since the game was released (although we used to have more spells that worked while moving, they nerfed some back around LU6 or LU<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div><div> </div><div>Sony is taking away the tools I used to pull, daily. And no, I cannot stop to not move, that will not work, I will die. These changes will prevent me from pulling in many cases where I currently pull. We will have to get a scout or warrior to pull with a bow now, which means that in many cases I will not be able to tank some encounters on raids that I tanked in the past. This is a <strong>huge change, did anyone even think through the ramifications</strong>?</div><div> </div><div>It pisses me off to no end to see <strong>nerf after nerf because of PvP</strong>, when we were promised that it would not affect our PvE game.</div><div> </div><div>First no resing outside group, and now no pulling mobs with spells.</div><div> </div><div>Whats next? No healing people outside group?</div><div> </div><div>These PvP changes are ruining the PvE fun of many classes.</div><div> </div><div>-I</div>

[emr]

I agree this will really hurt Crusaders.  Any crusader who was occasionally permitted to tank in raids will no longer be allowed

[emr]

In truth I am not surprised this happened I knew dispite what SOE claimed that PvP would affect the rest of the game.  All you people who thought otherwise have been proven wrong and wait there will be more nerfs because of PvP

[troodon311]

<div></div><div>If, hypothetically, this change is being done because of PvP (I have to admit it seems a possibility given the timing of this change) then the least that the developers can do is allow us to use ranged weapons.  Sure, I'll have to go out and blow some cash on a bow or a bandoleer or something, but at least I'll be able to pull like I used to.  Please, DEVs, if you are going to follow through with this change give us the same ability all other Fighters have.  All we want is to maintain equality.</div>

[Iustus]

<div></div><p>I want to make one further point, clarify what I meant by <strong>'removing the tools'</strong>.</p><p>Everyone has certain things they do in particular situations to succeed. The more different things you can do in different situations, the more skill plays a factor into how successful you are.</p><p>This change removes some tools, so in a sense, dumbs the game down more, giving me fewer tools to choose amongst to handle different situations. Thus, the skill factor goes down. (The extreme case would be if you only had one button to push all the time, a monkey could do that).</p><p>-I</p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div>Please Leave our Lifetap's castable when Running ,  i need to Have HP's when Tanking , and i need to Build agro when Tanking</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>ALL Lifetap's and Sk's Ward are Long Cast's That get Horribly interupted ADD to that Our Very Weak AGro + Low Hp's ?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Guard / Zerker can pull with Bow's Have almost 1500K more Hp's and Much better Agro Tools Zerker's Best Agroes in the game and Better Dp's than Sk's ?</div><div> </div><div>Zerker = Best Agro Plus Great Dp's can Pull when Moving very High Hp's   </div><div> </div><div>Sk's = Ok dp's , Horrible Agro, Very Low Hp's and Low Life tap's and can't cast when moving ? we can use our Weak tuant and have to get very close to mobs?</div><div> </div><div>Do the Dev's realise How often you get Stunned/Rooted/ by mobs? + the Interupt's ? how do i run out to a mob Get Stunned try to cast something get interupted and then Try to make it back to Group ? how can i heal myself? WHEN do i Build Agro ? I tuant OVER time :smileysad:</div><div> </div><div>?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:34 AM</span></p>

[Foiled Aga]

<div></div><p>Welcome to another change as useless as the server merges.. oh wow this is looking like swg already.</p><div></div>

[Kylae]

<DIV>Hello DEV's!  I know its a long shot that one may respond, but the OP is 100% accurate and valid.  this change is absolutely uncalled for and adds little to game play in any way.  I think it will make most if not all Paladins adjust their play styles once again, you take a HUGE step backward when it comes down to class parity. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When are all the archers and hammer throwers going to have to be stationary? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kylae on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div>I've been playign my SK alt a lot lately and I've noticed all of this, even in early levels. Agro is horrible. Building agro over time does nothing to keep agro off people who aren't supposed to have it unless they sit out half the fight. As was said, we have low HP, garbage agro, and merely alright DPS. I like what the SK class is supposed to be, not how it is playing out. I'm really glad my SK is not my main because it's terrible what they are doing to crusaders in general.

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Argh.  I've taken a lot of changes in stride, and in most cases thought them to be deserved.  But the more I think about this and see how much of my pulling and aggro management tactics involve slamming a couple spells into the mobs as I pull them back to the group.<div></div>

[emr]

This is because of PvP.  The developers stated that they adjusted the numbers of the spells/CA seperately in PvE and PvP which I bet they can. However they never stated they could change the basic way the spells work.   In PvP aggro is of course  irrelevent.  However since Crusaders can cast damage and healsl on the move we would have a major advantage compared to Mages and Healers.  So we had to be nerfed for PvP and since the spell works the same regardless of numbers for PvE we get this nerf.This is also the same reason Brigand get nerfed in update 20.The truth of the matter is PvP is affecting PvE dispite Blackguards claim to the difference.  Exactly as I predicted when PvP was first annouced months.

[Cynto]

<div></div><p>I am sure my post here will get me nothing but flames in return, but as a Berserker, I figured I would post something you guys seem to be missing. (this is not a flame, just a clarification)</p><p>1.) Bow range is SIGNIFICANTLY less than your pulling spell range. I group with SK guildies a lot, and even when i'm MT/puller they frequently get bored of me having to run so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close to pull, and so by the time i get halfway to the mob they've pulled it for me already.</p><p>2.) Bow/ranged damage is INSIGNIFICANT, unless i've got the RGF equipped and proc a 500 dmg hit I do very minimal damage. So low in fact that if anyone does anything at all before I get a taunt off on top of it on Incoming the mob goes right for them. I do not know what damage amount these spells you are losing while moving did, but I assure you, it is much greater than what I can do at range.</p><p>I know that Berserker aggro generation is pretty good in comparison, but maybe instead of asking to get your casting while moving spells back, you should be asking for better taunts/more aggro generation than you currently have. Odds are you won't get the casting while moving thing back, but maybe you can get more taunts.</p><p>As for PvP, it dosn't matter unless you're on a PvP server, which i'm assuming you guys aren't since there are none yet. Again, it sucks that your skills are getting changed due to PvP, but they aren't going to change that. I'm all for you guys getting better taunts and ranged weapons, but honestly for PvE you guys can pull from a much greater distance than I ever could, and I usually don't get hit until i get back to my group unless i'm pulling so far that the mobs are almost at max range before they break encounter anyway.</p><p>Again, I feel for you guys in losing skills you've had for over a year and a half, but I don't think that this is as much an "end of the world/class" change as you think it is.</p><p> </p>

[SgtReign]

<div><p><font color="#669900">I also oppose this change wholeheartedly. However... I am also aware it will go forward anyway regardless of what is said by crusaders.</font></p><p><strong><em><u><font color="#ff3300">Cynical? Jaded? Yes. But I'm a Shadowknight. I doubt there are any SKs that are not. So like everything else, we'll take it on the chin and roll with it.</font></u></em></strong></p><p><font color="#669900">- Lariara</font></p></div><div>agreed..cant stop wont stop...i am a shadowknight that was born and bread to rip and shread..take my sword i will bash ya to death...[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing whiners....</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/fallenone1884/signature.jpg"></div>

[Rylight]

<div></div><p>Cynto said</p><hr><font color="#ff0000">I know that Berserker aggro generation is pretty good in comparison, but maybe instead of asking to get your casting while moving spells back, you should be asking for better taunts/more aggro generation than you currently have. Odds are you won't get the casting while moving thing back, but maybe you can get more taunts</font><hr>I know your not trying to start a flame war or anything like that, so im just gonna state this...<p>we've been asking for taunts for a long time, <u>a very, very long time</u>, now if we were to get are tuants improved some time ago, then maybe the whole casting while moving nerf wouldnt be such a big deal, but we have been argueing about our taunts for over a year, and now we seem to be losing in two areas, casting/moving, as well as taunts. im not usually one to be pesimistic, but this really is a slap in the face considering we just keep getting nerfed with no improvement what-so-ever</p><p>dont get me wrong. I love my sk, and espically after the CC, we were given some very nice spells and could perform nicely, but like before CC we were still gimped on tuants, thats all we have ever wanted since CC, a chance to hang with the big boys. but in short, I think we are going to continue to fight for both, and odds are we wont get either back.</p>

[emr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cynto wrote:<div></div><p>I am sure my post here will get me nothing but flames in return, but as a Berserker, I figured I would post something you guys seem to be missing. (this is not a flame, just a clarification)</p><p>1.) Bow range is SIGNIFICANTLY less than your pulling spell range. I group with SK guildies a lot, and even when i'm MT/puller they frequently get bored of me having to run so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close to pull, and so by the time i get halfway to the mob they've pulled it for me already.</p><p>2.) Bow/ranged damage is INSIGNIFICANT, unless i've got the RGF equipped and proc a 500 dmg hit I do very minimal damage. So low in fact that if anyone does anything at all before I get a taunt off on top of it on Incoming the mob goes right for them. I do not know what damage amount these spells you are losing while moving did, but I assure you, it is much greater than what I can do at range.</p><p>I know that Berserker aggro generation is pretty good in comparison, but maybe instead of asking to get your casting while moving spells back, you should be asking for better taunts/more aggro generation than you currently have. Odds are you won't get the casting while moving thing back, but maybe you can get more taunts.</p><p>As for PvP, it dosn't matter unless you're on a PvP server, which i'm assuming you guys aren't since there are none yet. Again, it sucks that your skills are getting changed due to PvP, but they aren't going to change that. I'm all for you guys getting better taunts and ranged weapons, but honestly for PvE you guys can pull from a much greater distance than I ever could, and I usually don't get hit until i get back to my group unless i'm pulling so far that the mobs are almost at max range before they break encounter anyway.</p><p>Again, I feel for you guys in losing skills you've had for over a year and a half, but I don't think that this is as much an "end of the world/class" change as you think it is.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>It not how much damage or the how long the range (if for balance those need to be reduced that would be ok) it is the fact crusaders will be the only tank with NO ranged damage while moving.And PvP does matter because SOE gave a promise it would not affect PvE play but it has in shortThey LIED</span><div></div>

[Rylight]

<div>and I would also have to agree that what set this entire idea off is the whole PVP thing, which really sucks, because I love PvP, but now feel more gimped then ever</div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Cynto wrote:<div></div><p>I am sure my post here will get me nothing but flames in return</p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey man, no flames here.  I'm the most reasonable person you'll ever meet :smileyhappy:</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p> </p><p></p><hr>1.) Bow range is SIGNIFICANTLY less than your pulling spell range. I group with SK guildies a lot, and even when i'm MT/puller they frequently get bored of me having to run so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close to pull, and so by the time i get halfway to the mob they've pulled it for me already.<hr></blockquote><p>I just logged on and checked.  My longest distance spells are max range 30m, shortbows (if any Warriors use those) have a range of 25m, and longbows have a range of 35m.  Bandoleers and sheaths and stuff have a range of 25m.  So, in fact, we have a shorter pulling range as it stands than a Warrior using a longbow (which I imagine all do)</p><p> </p><blockquote><p></p><hr>2.) Bow/ranged damage is INSIGNIFICANT, unless i've got the RGF equipped and proc a 500 dmg hit I do very minimal damage. So low in fact that if anyone does anything at all before I get a taunt off on top of it on Incoming the mob goes right for them. I do not know what damage amount these spells you are losing while moving did, but I assure you, it is much greater than what I can do at range.<hr></blockquote><p>I'll grant you our spells do considerably more damage than bows.  On the other hand, as you admit later, we have rather mediocre (to say the least) hate generation as it is.  If anything these pulling spells are only keeping us competitive with other Fighters' taunting abilities.</p><p>We all know the reason for this change is not because Shadow Knights were too good at aggro control (that's almost laughable), so your point is sort of moot.  But as I said earlier, if they are dead set on keeping these changes in, all we want is ranged weapons.  That'll make the majority of us quite content in this regard.</p><blockquote><p> </p><p></p><hr>I'm all for you guys getting better taunts and ranged weapons,<hr></blockquote>Thank you.  I'm all for that too :smileywink:<p><span class="time_text">Edit: bleh, I had a bad day and can't spell properly :smileytongue:</span></p><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 PM</span></p>

[Arillonahia]

<div></div><p>Agree wholeheartedly with the OP, there is no justifyable reason for this to go ahead, it merely removes from us an ability used by all our fighter peers with nothing in return. I'd like to see a response from a dev as to 'why'.....</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SalBlu]

<div>Any spell that is cast by any class should require non movement.  Not sure why any classes who have spells can still do it.  Would be better if they made a blanket change for all spells to require non movement, not just Crusaders.</div>

[Mogcha]

If the problem actually is pulling from a great distance then maybe you should invest in a Hex Doll...  I commonly use the Mitigation reduction Hex Doll and pull from distances that are amazing.  Further than the 35m bows can shoot.Just a thought.27 Ogre Pally<div></div>

[sliderhouserules]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>emras wrote:This is because of PvP.  The developers stated that they adjusted the numbers of the spells/CA seperately in PvE and PvP which I bet they can. However they never stated they could change the basic way the spells work.   In PvP aggro is of course  irrelevent.  However since Crusaders can cast damage and healsl on the move we would have a major advantage compared to Mages and Healers.  So we had to be nerfed for PvP and since the spell works the same regardless of numbers for PvE we get this nerf.This is also the same reason Brigand get nerfed in update 20.The truth of the matter is PvP is affecting PvE dispite Blackguards claim to the difference.  Exactly as I predicted when PvP was first annouced months.<hr></blockquote>Paladins cannot cast heals on the move. At 55, I have two usable damage spells that I can cast on the move.This is a bad change.</span></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>pulling from range is not the true issue we are talking about, it is the plan to remove <strong><u>pull on the run range ability that crusaders had on only a couple of spells</u></strong>.  This in my opinion was a compensation for the other 4 fighter classes that had the non power costing option of using bows and/or throwing weapons to pull the mob.  Comparing crusaders to priests or mages is not a true comparison, being as all of the corresponding classes in priests/mages have the no movement penalty on ranged pulls.  I love my paladin class and relied heavily on pulling with judgment line spell or decree, but if this change goes live it will be i have no possibilty of doing a moving range pull like the other fighters.  Hex dolls now are interupted on the move also so that is not a option either.  I fully understand the movement restriction on our large long range refusal line and that has been fine with me since day one, but we already have a restriction of using power to supply our long range damage, we are now being told that we cant move to pull anymore?  Those who say to use your taunts need to realize that that is the same as going to the classes that use bows and throwing weapons and say they are going to get nerfed to taunting range, i am willing to bet that would be a outrage to them...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I cant speak for the shadowknights but i imagine they share the same concern and only want the couple spellls they had also kept to where we could pull on the run.  Bad enough the devs decided that pallies cant rez outside of group/raid now even though they still have the confirmation window pop up( i hear that dirges and necros have the same prob) </div><div> </div><div>If this stays as is and they do not increase our taunt range or toss in a ranged weapon so we can pull on the move then the devs are stating that we as crusaders are only good in the off tank issue, buff bots or if you get within a meter of a corpse as a pallie rez bots.  Anybody who pulls mobs that there is usually a couple of methods you use to pull, body pull by proximity, long range pull and run back to grp or general taunt and stay.  Right now crusaders enjoy all three but not if this goes live.</div>

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iustus wrote:<div>This is a <strong>big deal</strong>.</div><div> </div><div>I run and pull every day. Thousands of times per day. I have done it this way since the game was released (although we used to have more spells that worked while moving, they nerfed some back around LU6 or LU<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <font color="#ff9900">You play for over 8 hours a day every day?  Assuming you pull a new encounter every 30 seconds.</font></div><div> </div><div>Sony is taking away the tools I used to pull, daily. And no, I cannot stop to not move, that will not work, I will die. These changes will prevent me from pulling in many cases where I currently pull. We will have to get a scout or warrior to pull with a bow now, which means that in many cases I will not be able to tank some encounters on raids that I tanked in the past. This is a <strong>huge change, did anyone even think through the ramifications</strong>? <font color="#ff9900">If you cant learn how to stop and pull you need to relearn the game. Its not he ideal way to do it but it is doable.</font></div><div> </div><div>It pisses me off to no end to see <strong>nerf after nerf because of PvP</strong>, when we were promised that it would not affect our PvE game.  <font color="#ff9900">Where did it say or even hint that these changes were coming because of PvP?</font></div><div> </div><div>First no resing outside group, and now no pulling mobs with spells.</div><div> </div><div>Whats next? No healing people outside group?</div><div> </div><div>These PvP changes are ruining the PvE fun of many classes.</div><div> </div><div>-I</div><hr></blockquote>Assumptions and exagerations are pretty bad too.

[Iustus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Iustus wrote:<div>This is a <strong>big deal</strong>.</div><div> </div><div>I run and pull every day. Thousands of times per day. I have done it this way since the game was released (although we used to have more spells that worked while moving, they nerfed some back around LU6 or LU<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <font color="#ff9900">You play for over 8 hours a day every day?  Assuming you pull a new encounter every 30 seconds.</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900"></font> </div><div><font color="#33cc00">My /played time is 184d 17h, you do the math.</font></div><div> </div><div>Sony is taking away the tools I used to pull, daily. And no, I cannot stop to not move, that will not work, I will die. These changes will prevent me from pulling in many cases where I currently pull. We will have to get a scout or warrior to pull with a bow now, which means that in many cases I will not be able to tank some encounters on raids that I tanked in the past. This is a <strong>huge change, did anyone even think through the ramifications</strong>? <font color="#ff9900">If you cant learn how to stop and pull you need to relearn the game. Its not he ideal way to do it but it is doable.</font></div><div> </div><div><font color="#33cc00">Actually, no. There are raid encounters that I will simply not be able to pull effectively now. There <strong>are</strong> situtations that you can pull while stationary, I do that a lot as well, but there are some that you simply cannot do it (some in poets palace return come to mind).</font></div><div> </div><div>It pisses me off to no end to see <strong>nerf after nerf because of PvP</strong>, when we were promised that it would not affect our PvE game.  <font color="#ff9900">Where did it say or even hint that these changes were coming because of PvP?</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900"></font> </div><div><font color="#33cc00">Both this change and the no resurrecting people outside your group were done because of PvP issues.</font></div><div> </div><div>First no resing outside group, and now no pulling mobs with spells.</div><div> </div><div>Whats next? No healing people outside group?</div><div> </div><div>These PvP changes are ruining the PvE fun of many classes.</div><div> </div><div>-I</div><hr></blockquote>Assumptions and exagerations are pretty bad too.<hr></blockquote><p>This is a bad change, that severely penalizes two classes simply to balance a minor PvP issue. Do the devs, please find another solution. Make those spells not work on other players, anything.</p><p>-I</p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><div>Sk's ask for Agro increases :smileyvery-happy: OMG , Man Are you serious? there are Countless Threads 10 + pages Long About our Taunt problems alone on Various forum's and These have been giong for Month's and Month's</div><div> </div><div>Here is one Thread with A ton of Info : <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=16972">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=16972</a></div><div> </div><div>heres one from back in NOV (Yes NOVEMBER) <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=101&page=1">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=101&page=1</a>  and look at the last date someone posted on it 2-10-2005</div><div><font color="#c8c1b5"></font> </div><div><font color="#c8c1b5">Here's One started by someone who doesn't have a Shadowknight But List's them at the TOP of his list for some Much Needed Loving <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90910">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=90910</a></font></div><div><font color="#c8c1b5"></font> </div><div><font color="#c8c1b5">and Another : <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=16470">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=16470</a></font></div><div><font color="#c8c1b5"></font> </div><div><font color="#c8c1b5">There are more if you want them i can paste them All up here , </font></div><div><font color="#c8c1b5"></font> </div><div><font color="#c8c1b5">And just for the record Again we got 2 Dev replies a Working as Intended( if we ARE working as intended WHY THIS Change?) and the second response of "We look at class balancing every single day if something is Very out of balance then we will make a change " </font></div><div><font color="#c8c1b5"></font> </div><div><font color="#c8c1b5">So this AGRO problem has been around since UL16, and people been Posting about it NoN-stop, and instead of a Tuant fix we get an AGRO Nerf , and told to Use our Tuants to Pull with ? LOOK at Shadowknight's Tuant's they SUck and Tuant Over TIME , </font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>P.S. What is that Big Ugly   "LOvE" thing up near my Name ? come on is this little house on my Pony good grief  : (</div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:30 PM</span></p>

[troodon311]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div>Anybody who pulls mobs that there is usually a couple of methods you use to pull, body pull by proximity, long range pull and run back to grp or general taunt and stay.  Right now crusaders enjoy all three but not if this goes live.<hr></div></blockquote><p>This is the crux of the issue.  Stuff about Priests' or Mages' spells getting interrupted on the move and SK taunting abilities (which is an important topic, but one for another thread) are irrelevant.  The issue at hand is that with this change Crusaders will effectively lose one of our pulling methods.  Sure, we can stop in our tracks and sit there for two seconds while we cast Wrath (or the Paladin equivilent), but to do so puts us in a position no other Fighter classes are in.  There is no legitimate reason (PvE reason, at least) to take our distance pulling away from us.</p>

[Lailokaenus]

<div></div>EDIT: Please note I don't speak for paladins here, I don't play a pally, i'm not going to pretend I do.The only possible way I could see this nerf being justified is if they kept the instant cast time on our "Anger" DD line. They don't - the continuation spell in this line has a 1.0 second cast time. For the people that are saying to use a taunt as whatever you first aggro the mob with, I have a feeling that eq2 is like eq1 in that there is an aggro cap on the initial hit (a taunt for your first aggro on the mob will waste some of the threat.)Hex dolls are not feasible, at all. Speed is a huge factor in pulling.This is a fairly substantial nerf to shadowknights. We severely lack in the upfront hate gain department. All our taunts are "taunt over time" bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Getting as many spells off on the incoming mob before any other group members got the chance to was a big part of keeping aggro for the first 10 seconds of combat.Why the nerf, if not for PvP? It's not really overpowering, at all. It's not like i'm unleashing teh aw3some fury of dots on the mob and achieving godlike dps because of this. This is a slap in the face of shadowknight aggro.If this is going to continue, just make us wear leather and up our dps. We are not adequate plate tanks now, and we are seeing NO improvements, only seemingly "minor" nerfs that slowly chip away at the only tools we have left to scrape by on aggro.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lailokaenus on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p>

[emr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lailokaenus wrote:<div></div>EDIT: Please note I don't speak for paladins here, I don't play a pally, i'm not going to pretend I do.The only possible way I could see this nerf being justified is if they kept the instant cast time on our "Anger" DD line. They don't - the continuation spell in this line has a 1.0 second cast time. For the people that are saying to use a taunt as whatever you first aggro the mob with, I have a feeling that eq2 is like eq1 in that there is an aggro cap on the initial hit (a taunt for your first aggro on the mob will waste some of the threat.)Hex dolls are not feasible, at all. Speed is a huge factor in pulling.This is a fairly substantial nerf to shadowknights. We severely lack in the upfront hate gain department. All our taunts are "taunt over time" bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Getting as many spells off on the incoming mob before any other group members got the chance to was a big part of keeping aggro for the first 10 seconds of combat.Why the nerf, if not for PvP? It's not really overpowering, at all. It's not like i'm unleashing teh aw3some fury of dots on the mob and achieving godlike dps because of this. This is a slap in the face of shadowknight aggro.If this is going to continue, just make us wear leather and up our dps. We are not adequate plate tanks now, and we are seeing NO improvements, only seemingly "minor" nerfs that slowly chip away at the only tools we have left to scrape by on aggro.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lailokaenus on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This exactly the same situation that Paladin will be in. </span><div></div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><div></div>I forgot to add something to my last post.  Yesterday I accidently cleared my single target taunt ability off my hotkey bar and went to the knowledge book to find it and put it back; I found it in our spells rather than our combat arts.  Call me a cynic, but I'm willing to bet that (whether on purpose or by accident) our single target taunt is going to be interruptable come this patch.  If anyone's on test they should check it out.  Pallies, might want to check your books to see if your taunt's a spell too. <p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:31 PM</span></p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><div>I see that 2 Dev's responded to the Ring Nerf issue and Also Threw in a Quick explanation for Bruiser's Nerf , BUt once again Nothing as to a reason why we Got this Nerf ? guess we already know the why .</div><div> </div><div>anyway once again , Shadowknight's have LOw HP's, Low Heal's, and Tuant OVER time , how can we go out and Use a Tuant that Sucks , Run back to group with a MOB pounding on us , and get back to group we need to Build agro BUT the Healer needs to Spam heal us as we our Dieng, OUr Ward Is EXTREMELY hard to cast Get's interupted Constantly (but we cant use it we need to Build agro Now) , our Lifetap's Both singlke and AE our on 2.0 second timers(Tap Vien's and Heinous Blessing say 2.0 sec but it's more like 3.5 Sec)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>so we cant build Agro on the Run , We can't Take damage , we can't Cast our Ward/Lifetap's when being Hit by Mob's, and we drain HP's Fast so Healer needs to Heal us and puls agro ,  DP's Stand's around Twiddling thier thumb's   and wait till you get agro off Healer and slowly try to do Dp's they Grab Agro immediatly becuase by now it's 30 second's into the mob , MAge Die's , then Ranger die's, then you finally get agro But Healer OOP from healing Mage and Ranger then "YOU" die  healer  Sign's off for the night party break's up.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:49 PM</span></p>

[Boli32]

Every post - that's almost EVERY post in this thread has been: "What?... that gives an unfair advantage to other tanks".The crux of the problem is: almost every tank runs in and uses their ranged attack to pull a mob - each one running there and back to the group to start the battle. Why I said: "almost" is because some people's play style is different.It was balanced... Crusaders used a Spell Warriors and Brawlers used ranged weapons Crusaders did more damage and could use it to help complete a HO The others did not but did not need to expend power to do so. Warrios and Brawlers could continue to use ranged attack MULTIPLE times on their way back or even if they wished "kite the mob". While Crusaders had themor damaging attack for the Paladin at least (sorry unsure on the SK) the recast timers are 30seconds; again needing power. Once again there is balance.And now it isn't... Crusaders loose an aspect of the tanking class - the "running pull" has been used since almost the very begining..... and there are 3 pages of people saying the SAME thing... it isn't even an arguement - everyone admits it is a bad change.So how powerful will it be in PvP "recast timers, power cost and high damage" compared to the "no recast timer, no power low damage" attack...  in a "kiting match" who would you put your money on? Pretty even I'd say - a good bow and proc vs power useage.So that's even... that's balanced - but they change it?----Which leaves me to the final ace and possibly the reason behind the entire change.The Paladin ranged nuke which you can cast on the run INTERRUPTS... run right up to the mage nuke him - interrupt him and close for the kill knockdown and slaughter. Paladins do very very well against mages  - part in due to this very useful spell. SK I think can do equally well).Quick nerf the crusaders they have an advanatge over mages!Yes, crusaders DO have an advatage over mages... we don't have an advantage over getting stabbed in the back by an assasin; hit over the head by a beserker, shot in the back with an arrow by a ranger. Crusaders are good vs magicla damage; less good against physical damage. There in lies the BALANCE As hard as I can see it I can't see ANY REASON to change the nature of running spells for PvE; PvP; fighter balance... anything really.....can anyone... can SOE?55 people and counting seem to think not/end rant<div></div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>boli wrote:The Paladin ranged nuke which you can cast on the run INTERRUPTS... run right up to the mage nuke him - interrupt him and close for the kill knockdown and slaughter. Paladins do very very well against mages  - part in due to this very useful spell. SK I think can do equally well).<hr></blockquote><p>Our only stun is our shield slam.</p>

[emr]

Sarcasm onWhoppee, gee thanks just what crusaders always needed, NOTSarcasm offCrusader in compensation for the being nerfed get a unimportant tweak.   Since we will not be tanking anymore after the nerf why would any crusader use a one handed weapon anyways?Still waiting to hear the reason for crusaders recieving a nerf.

[Giral]

<div>wow i get an extra 1 handed strike Woopty doo THANKS <--- this is Sarcasm incase you don't have a clue</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>What r u thinkin ? just boggles the mind</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>And check this out  :</div><div> </div><div>Combat Arts :</div><div> </div><div> Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. For example, if a single combat art strikes 5 times, the proc will only have a chance to trigger once during that art rather than 5 times.</div><div> </div><div>guess that Nerfes our Heinous Blessing , If so Say goodbye to soloing,dueling,grouping, and especially MT, Raid MT and PvP</div><div> </div><div>lol can you imagine :smileysad:</div><div> </div>

[troodon311]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div> </div><div> Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack. For example, if a single combat art strikes 5 times, the proc will only have a chance to trigger once during that art rather than 5 times.<hr></div></blockquote><p>That's refering to procs on the attack themselves, not reactive procs.  So unless I'm misunderstanding you, our reactive heal will be just fine.</p><p>I'm also kind of bugged that they haven't responded and the only thing in the test notes for us is some change that, really, didn't need to be made.  I liked having a 2handed-only attack.  I understand that the DEVs can't respond to every thread about every Classes' issue, but now a test update has come and gone and this change is still on test.  If they would just give us a legitimate reason for the change then that would suffice.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I like to think that I'm objective minded enough to understand and swallow a change to my class that needs to be made for balancing reasons; as it stands there's no reason given for this change.</p>

[infernus006]

I don't agree with this change either, at least not totally.  I think they should leave at least one of your ranged abilites able to be cast while moving.  However...<i>"if I am fighting a zerker and he is running while shooting a bow and arrow at me, I cant really run after him as long as he keeps distance away from me. I dont want to have to stop to cast."</i>I don't know what you are thinking but there is no way that any Zerker is going to win any duel by kiting anybody.  We have NO ranged CA's at all and we have NO magic spells of any kind.  The only way we can use our bows at all is by clicking the ranged auto-attack button on and off.  Most Warriors use a longbow for the range and they have a dely of 7 seconds.  The only reason a Zerker bothers to use his bow at all in a duel is if he is rooted and has no other choice or if he is oop and very low on health while fighting another pure melee class.  He wouldn't be too smart to be trying to kite any class that as any kind of ranged nukes, and that includes Crusaders.  The damage from the bow is nothing compared to our CA's, all of which can only be used in very close vicinity to the target.  I just wanted to clear that up, kthnx.<div></div>

[Rylight]

<div></div><p>the whole zerker thing was just a random example, but honestly I have had a zerker do some decent damage on me with a bow and arrow, and yeah he was using the tactic you said below because he was low on health and wanted to stay away from my melee damage </p><p>but if it makes anything better, take out the word zerker and use ranger, or caster mage (spells not arrows of course)  you get the idea.</p>

[emr]

Here is to hoping the nerf is fixed in update 21 since SOE is to busy trying to get PvP in care about PvE

[Giral]

<div></div><div>I watched 2 FULL Fabled Berserkers (from 2 Top Guild's) <Duel> last night , and They were Running all OVER the place , they didn't stand Toe To Toe and bash each other's Brain's out . So what was all The running around About ???????????? if they cant do anything when moving ?????????????</div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:55 PM</span></p>

[EvilIguana9]

Last I checked, a single shot from a longbow does far more damage on average than a single cast of my ranged damage art.  According to EQ2IDB an ironwood longbow does 141 - 705 damage.  Celestial judgement at adept III is 203-338.  Currently damage ranges on weapons are showing up wrong in game so I can't check how accurate the bow figure is.  I do know however that my dirge alt using a stormfire is doing as much damage every 7 secs at 35 as my spell does every 20 at 60.  If you are hitting for crap when pulling with a bow your problem is most likely that you aren't using level appropriate arrows.  That or there is some other mechanism I'm not aware of limiting damage. <div></div>

[Leafkiller]

The Crusader, mounted, deadly...as long as we come to a complete and total stop before we attack. No ranged weapons allowed, no mobility permitted. Come on, Sony, give us a good reason for this that doesn't involve PvP nerfing.This is not a game balance issue, not unbalancing in any way, and yet its being changed. Keep your stinking micro-carrrot and quite messing with us.The most useless cavalry in MMPORG-dom!Bah...<div></div>

[infernus006]

<i>"I watched 2 FULL Fabled Berserkers (from 2 Top Guild's) <Duel> last night , and They were Running all OVER the place , they didn't stand Toe To Toe and bash each other's Brain's out . So what was all The running around About ?"</i>I don't know but like I said, we have no ranged CA's or magic spells at all.  They may have simply been trying to confuse each other.<div></div>

[Phank]

<div></div>Do we have any Mod/Dev reply to this nerf?

[Ludarian]

<div></div>57 Paladin on Unrest.  I came to the boards to specifically post against this change.  Thank goodness for this thread and all of the other players outraged by this.Keep it up.  Please don't ignore this SoE.<div></div>

[Sinuvil]

<div></div>This is ridiculous. If you are going to nerf something, at least take the time to explain the reason why like you are doing with the ranger nerf. I mean, the courtesy alone would be nice. Do they not see the disadvantage in this? Every other tank can now hit on the run but Crusaders. The small tweak to the cleave line does not even come close to covering this...  Please reconsider the change.

[troodon311]

<div></div><p>.....</p><p>It would take like 5 seconds for a DEV to come in here and say, "Oh yeah, Bob suggested this change because _____".  I know you're busy and all, and I know we're not Rangers (and therefor undeserving of 4 responses to our concerns), but it's annoying to be ignored like this.</p>

[emr]

I sit here, my paladin has been level 60 for a while and trying decide to which toon I should use for the XP bonus weekend. I realized just today I do not really care if I level any of my other toons.  I am not excited about KoS.  I will never PvP.  Most of the quests I have not done are broken, mindless grind etc.  This will be the last weekend  of raiding I am any use pulling as a tank.  The Server has the worst lag since the server merge.  4 days since server merge, EQ2 players not updated yet.I have the next week off, was going to play alot of EQ2.  Instead I think I will be mostly reading a few books got for XmasSONY must have lied about PvP not affecting PvE.  Cannot think of any other reason for this nerf.

[Giral]

<div></div><div>Shadowknight's</div><div> </div><div>Low Hp's</div><div> </div><div>Low Heal's</div><div> </div><div>Reduced proc's</div><div> </div><div>unable to cast a couple of ranged spells anymore when moving</div><div> </div><div>No ranged weapon</div><div> </div><div>Junk Dp's</div><div> </div><div>weak Buff's = raid = not needed</div><div> </div><div>Junky Tuant's (Don't get any New tuant's form 60 to 70 ? how am i giong to hold Agro off level 69 Warlock with a lvl 59 tuant as my Only pulling Agro builder ? )</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>But hey they took away our 2 handed Only skill  and made it 1 handed Woopty Do</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>lol that post about Mountied with no Moving Spell's/Skill's  is so Sad but so true : (</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:44 PM</span></p>

[agememn]

<div></div><div>Just thought I would add my bemusement at this nerf.  Why? I already have to deliberately remeber not to use my ranged spells late on in fights or we get the great moment when the mob is dead, the group is on full power n health and peeps start saying pull, pull, whilst a patiently watch the reuse timer count down. </div><div> </div><div>running towards mob, stopping casting nuke then running back to grp will introduce more delays in pulling, more deaths, due to those lovely stuns the mobs have stopping us getting back to group, and just generally more fustration <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Why is this change necesary if not to balance PvP???</div><div> </div><div>Krussh</div><div>60pally/alchy</div><div>Dark Children of Lucan (Befallen)</div>

[emr]

It is because of PvP.   PvP balance was not supposed to affect according SONY but this nerf is proof that it does, as I predicted. Of course the deafening silence from the developers is because they were forced to nerf crusaders because the great plan for PvP/PvE seperation did not work

[lover]

Oh ewww =/ I just had a couple of months off and have spent the last week catching up on everything and only just came here. I didn't even know about this and its just a few days till patch. This is not good - fine that awhile ago they stopped us casting all the other damage spells on the move - I cannot imagine playing with absolutely no cast while moving spell. Pulling for a group I never stop but run in and pull and turn and run back without stopping - when soloing its even more important and was a major tactic soloing in PoF.Don't compare us to a wizard or other caster - its not like the spell I am talking about even makes a freaking dent in the mob at Level 60 Adept 3. We are fighters not mages, and if you think our spells should be static cast like mages then so should the associated damage be comparable =PAs to PvP never affecting PvE. I too have remained cynical about this - especially after years of playing DAOC. Changes to one side often wrought un-considered changes to the other - and I do not have rose coloured glasses when it comes to thinking about the fact that SOE are going to want to appease the new PvP mob. If my abilities are going to be affected based on what I *might* do if I engaged in PvP I know I am going to get very tired very soon.Personally I would just like the game to remain somewhat consistent for longer than a month at a time. I am all for change when it isn't change for the sake of change or in response to whining sections of the community.<b><font color="#B3C3C3">Loverat's</font><font color="#951364"> </font><a target="_blank" href="http://www.loverat.net/eq2.htm"><font color="#951364">EQ2 Bits</font></a><font color="#951364"></font><font color="#B3C3C3"> (jewellery stats and help files!)</font></b><p>Message Edited by loverat on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:07 PM</span></p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Baelzharon wrote:<div></div><p>Crusaders will never be the main raid tank, and now we're going to suck being an XP tank too?? This is why I hate PvP. SoE lied and told us that PvP would not have any effect on PvE and then they pull this on us. This nerf is going in exactly to remove kiting during a duel for Crusaders. SoE can try and give another lame excuse but that's it, and I don't want to play a PvP game. I hate PvP in MMOGs because it destroys PvE.</p><p>If the devs are going to nerf us like this then increase the range of our taunts to max spell range, or let us use bows like the other fighters.</p><hr></blockquote>Totally agree here.Anyone who isnt in beta arnt aware of the whining that is going on in the PvP forums and this was a major factor in PvP beta.So far we've had the ranger nerf that of course had nothing to do with PvP, and now we have the Crusader nerf that again has nothing at all to do with PvP.Lies, lies lies.

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><p>PVPwill not effect PVE servers :smileysad:     IF something is Unbalanced on PVP fix it on PVP server ONLY</p><p> </p><p>so pathetic that we have to have a Skill from Launch nerfed almost a year and a half later, a Tool that Defined Crusader from Warriors , something for the Lack of other tool's , it was a Balance and it was only on a few skill's , and it was one of the skill's a Sk could use to try to BUILD agro over time : (* , now we can tuant when we run and Our lvl 64 Tuant is a Tiny Tiny upgrade again : (</p><p> </p><p>Please leave us atleast 1 or 2 of our cast when moving skill's, You didnt Remove Procs , you didnt Remove Imbued rings , you made it LESS , so just leave Crusaders 1 or 2 Skills to cast when moving , Please</p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:39 PM</span></p>

[emr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>PVPwill not effect PVE servers :smileysad:  </p></blockquote>If anybody true believes that I have bridge for sale</span><div></div>

[emr]

<span><blockquote><hr>emras wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>PVPwill not effect PVE servers :smileysad:  </p></blockquote>If anybody true believes that I have bridge for sale</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Not that I am suggesting Giralus does,  I think he is just another frustrated crusader</span><div></div>

[4lta]

<div></div>they even took CAs that u could use on the run away from rangers !!!! scouts now have to stand still too! SoE is killing this game lol way to go pull all these nerfs after you pre sold the hell out of dof i know im not gonna be there fahQ Soe i have lost all faith in your ability to improve a game but to slowly destroying your player base keep it up ...Summoners are next up to the Nerfbat enjoy! 

[Giral]

<div><p>as Moorgaurd has said Several times "Agro is a group responsibilty"</p><p>he also says Shadowknights are" Working as Intended" AND then Months later they remove the few spell's we can use when Moving . </p><p>the Dev's also say "we Play WOW" </p><p> </p><p>so</p><p>"agro is a group resposibility " = what possible reason is there to play a Tank ? you don't control agro the Group does , you do junk dp's and Tuant ,   Agro is suppose to be the MT's Job to Get it ,  Try to keep it, and if you lose it GET it Back , yes the other classes should have to Watch thier agro to Make the MT 's job easier , BUT the other classes shouldn't be in Control of the Agro the MT is suppose to be ,  agro should be the MT's Job , if he's Working HARD  for it he should Rarely lose it, if he's not working for it yeah should lose it all the time .</p><p> </p><p>shadowknight's "Working as intended" yeah right that was a load of Bull Stuff and a Half , and has been proven on countless threads, and what fix do we get ? a Nerf to our Moving cast Skill's and replaced with our Only 2 Hand Only skill made a One or 2 hand BLAH</p><p> </p><p>Dev's "We Play WOW"  so when i'm playing eq2 , the dev's are diong [ research ] on WOW , that's just too much , i tried WOW , i hated it , i tried eq2 loved it , now they have implimented a Ton of changes based on thier experiances playing WOW ,  Great thanks Umm if i wanted to play WOW i would play WOW , and Not eq2</p><p> </p><p>suck's for month's Month's you wait for fixes , you wait and hope they will finally get to YOUR class and fix it and instead you get More nerf's,  WOW now i get to stand still ALL the time when Solo/grouped/Raiding/ i can stand still WOW thanks , or i can run aorund Tuanting the Mob "Hatre me Mob i am Yelling profanities at you I'm a Big Bad Tank that can run around Yelling" FEAR ME "</p><p>lol they Should rename the "Crusader Class"  to  the " Panzie " class ,  Sk's New Tuant " HEeeyyyyyyyyy " and " Two Snapp's Way Up"           Crusader's =  "Men in Tight's"     Watch us Prance around Yelling at Mob's in our Pink and Yellow armor</p><p> </p></div>

[Draq]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>PVPwill not effect PVE servers :smileysad:     IF something is Unbalanced on PVP fix it on PVP server ONLY</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Proof us wrong Devs and give us a good reason why crusaders got this nerf. If you can't give a reason why this also effects PvE Servers then undo this change ASAP.Thx</span></div>

[Phank]

<div></div>Why not just remove the ability to cast spells on the move while engaged in PVP?  After all, EverQuest is a PvE game.  Always has been.  For those that want to kill time in PvP, they can adapt to not casting on the move.  For the rest of us, let us continue our play style that has become second nature to us over the past year.  We buff on the move, we pull using DD on the move...both VS mobs and not other players.  NO DISADVANTAGE to the environment.   Most of the time they are static and waiting to die anyway!

[Margen]

<div></div><p>I really wonder if Sony even wants the SK in this game, less HP's, less Mitigation, I've yet to see our so called more power issue, and much less aggro ability (Sk-800 hate on AOE, Zerker-1200 ... Boggles the mind), subpar dps, and now this.</p><p>If your going to nerf us and this is DEFFENITLY a nerf explain why, because to be blunt I am totally confused on why this was needed.  SK have been trying to develope tactics to make up for our short commings as tanks, and every time we do, you nerf it. </p><p>We are last on hate generation, 4th on dps, tied for last on hps, tied for last on mitigation for plate tanks, and our utilitity is not that huge.  I thought that the idea was that in certain situations each tank was suppose to be the best choice for certian encounters, but to be blunt I've never found the situation for SK's being wanted. </p><p>Gives us the logic behind this please, or is my only purpose to cast POA on some "true" tank.  Some reason that doesn't excit me.  This gets so frustarting.</p><p>P.S. Don't say for PVP purposes Sony, because I don't play PVP, I play PVE</p>

[ButterKnifeNinja]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>As a level 60 paladin I would like to add that I am against further changes in our movement/spellcasting abilites. If you all remember this has already happened once before. Before we were able to cast our refusal of faith (long recast nuke) line and our demonstration of faith (ward) line while moving. That got taken away back with the combat changes.</div><div> </div><div>That took a few deaths on my part before I got used to no longer being able to ward while running and due to the long recast the refusal of faith line wasn't a huge lose, I adjusted. But luckily, ever so luckily for those paladins over lvl 50 we still had decree (target encoutner ranged attack) we could use on the move, and I think we still have the Divine Judgment line to use on the move, which is my most used spell to pull second to decree (and if under lvl 50 your only one on the move). This is all we have left to pull with...my god, don't take away my ability to pull with decree while moving, this destoys my entire tanking method.</div><div> </div><div>We can't heal while moving, we can't ward while moving, don't take away the ability to use while running in some cases only spell and for those higher the most useful group pulling spell we have, please! This change will cause me to not be able to generate proper aggro on first group pull, surely you understand this SoE it's not that hard to comprehend, just play a paladin for a while to find out how it works before changing it.</div><div> </div><div>And oh the other good part, let's say I just burned my taunts and a group memeber towards the back of the group gets an add. Only thing I can do is cast a quick divine judgement type strike as a first response, but he's slightly out of range, ok so I move and try to cast it when in range, but oops I  was just stopping moving when I tried to cast...interrupted! two second delay, caster is to half health now, try again, oh got it off that time but now he's generated more aggro and it didn't pull him. Oh look my taunt is back up so now maybe I should run in closer and use that instead, oops well in all the time this took the caster is dead now and I look like a clumsy goof in plate. Yeah, real good change, just fab two thumbs down. Obviously this is a worst kind of scenerio, but you get the point.</div><div> </div><div>I can live with what's been taken away so far, I haven't complained about the ward casting and such...in fact I never thought I'd be on the boards having to post like this, but this is simply rediculous. Don't take away the last two spells we have to pull with, just don't, period. Concerned about PvP? Take it to the PvP servers and leave the rest of us alone, it's not like our spells do that much damage anyway, our divine judgement line is more like shocking yourself on a lightswitch than anything else, it's not some uber spell... /end rant</div><div> </div><div>edited for spacing</div><p>Message Edited by ButterKnifeNinja on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:27 AM</span></p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div>Shadowknight says to group   :   </div><div> </div><div>  Ok we will camp here and Wait till Mob's come to US</div><div> </div><div>And when they do let me get to Half health befor you start out with your LOW attack's</div><div> </div><div>and Wait until the Last 5 second's of fight to Nuke</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I'm a Shadowknight and i don't even want to Group with myself</div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:29 AM</span></p>

[emr]

Less then 24 hours till nerf hits and only Silence from SOE.

[Rylight]

<div></div><p>Margen said</p><hr>because to be blunt I am totally confused on why this was needed<hr><p>you and the rest of us, I have no idea what the motivation behind this was, nobody was complaining!! nobody was saying "Crusaders are doing major dps while running, no fair soe" I never heard this once. why is it when things are broken with us they take forever to fix (assuming they ever do), and the things that nobody complains about get nerfed? they just trying to give us a reason to argue?:smileysad:</p>

[Phank]

<div></div><p>Only 80 replies thusfar, that is why SOE doesn't give an official comment.  Lots of people quit their Crusaders in favor of Guardian a while ago.  Those that stayed only have to look forward to the Dread Knights of Vanguard I guess.  This is total horse poop.  The KoS spell list is dull.  The new spell we get is worthless.  Our AA lines are just revamped from EQ.  Nobody really cares that we get to Joust in PvE, I mean come on!</p><p>PVP is not a valid reason for the change because they could just implement these changes for the PVP servers.</p><p>I am getting diminishing returns every day from playing my 60 Shadowknight.  Soon it will be nil.</p><p> </p>

[emr]

Just more proof that developers do not care to explain the nerf.<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Non-Gameplay&message.id=296003#M296003">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Non-Gameplay&message.id=296003#M296003</a>

[emr]

Scott Hartsman  wrote on 16th Dec 2005One huge concern is that no one wants PvP balance to ever impact PvE balance. There will not be PvE combat nerfs because of PvP. We have separate controls for what goes on in PvP. Since this is a piece that we knew we'd need no matter which direction we went, this is something we've already implemented.Hoping he can explain his lie

[Casnow]

<div></div>Warlocks can Invis on the go

[Diern]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yes, yet another slap in the face for the Shadowknight class.</p><p>Our issues with agro are well documented on these forums. This is just another nail in the coffin. I have persevered and am able to keep fairly relaible agro with my Shadowknight. Despite cries to the contrary, by much of the community yes it is possible.</p><p>After this change goes live I doubt it will be.....</p><p>Any pulling issues this creates are secondary, and such it wont be such a problem for our Paladin advesaries, simply because they dont have the problems with agro that we do......</p><p>To keep reliable agro, and to be a viable tanking class a Shadowknight must be constantly on the move, providing a steady stream of mobs for his group to dispatch of. We dont have ranged weapons, we need these ranged arts and spells! To build sufficient agro on the pull and to keep somewhat reliable agro once the rest of the group has engaged. we must continually cast spells while running back to the group with the enemies in our wake. this is the sole reason I am able to be a tank as a Shadowknight.</p><p>Moorgard recently stated, that they realized the community had pre-concieved idea's about the weaknesses of the Shadowknight class. He made the claim that Shadowknights were not by any means broken or incapable.</p><p>Mooguard go play the class, while you have some spare time in this "calm before the storm" as you put it, because after this ridiculous change goes live you will find that the Shadowknight class is infact broken and incapable.</p><p>(No doubt this was done because of PVP, and I cant for the life of me see why this would make the Shadowknight class overpowered anyway, Get a grip sony.)</p><p>Message Edited by Diernes on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:43 AM</span></p>

[Zaile]

<blockquote><hr>emras wrote:Scott Hartsman  wrote on 16th Dec 2005One huge concern is that no one wants PvP balance to ever impact PvE balance. There will not be PvE combat nerfs because of PvP. We have separate controls for what goes on in PvP. Since this is a piece that we knew we'd need no matter which direction we went, this is something we've already implemented.Hoping he can explain his lie<hr></blockquote>Yeah, but without PvP the game is boring anyway =) No real challenge. You grind to get higher levels to do what? Kill more of the same with bigger stats. At least with PvP you potentially have more challenging encounters. Hartsman realizes this and therefore exceptions are made. AI can only present so much of a challenge. If this nerf is as bad as you say it will be adjusted, if not, then you will learn to work around it. Most classes have to deal with that in one way or another.[Zaile dons his flame proof armor and shouts "Flame away!"]

[Forri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Phank wrote:<div></div>Why not just remove the ability to cast spells on the move while engaged in PVP?  After all, EverQuest is a PvE game.  Always has been.  For those that want to kill time in PvP, they can adapt to not casting on the move.  For the rest of us, let us continue our play style that has become second nature to us over the past year.  We buff on the move, we pull using DD on the move...both VS mobs and not other players.  NO DISADVANTAGE to the environment.   Most of the time they are static and waiting to die anyway!<hr></blockquote>I agree, we are already gimped imo by not being able to use a ranged weapon.  Please dont take away the only means of pull creatures.  No everyone is going to be rush off and go PVP and if they do change the rule set there.  I chose Paladin because of the variety of abilities...dont take that variety away!!!

[Krackenhead]

<div></div><div>Well with the patch going live tomorrow I am not holding any hopes for a fix to our agro control.</div><div>I love my SK and still want to level him to 70 so please give us something back for the nerfs.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Krackar</div><div> </div>

[Giral]

<div>atleast i could have respected a Answer that didn't say anything " Shadowknight's are kinda sorta working as intended"</div><div> </div><div>But nothing from the Dev's is just Sad ,  removing a skill from release almost 1 1/2 years later with NO explanation even though that's all we Asked for was an Explanation ?   AND After telling us Shadowknight's are "working as intended" on the Sk forum's Month's ago ??? come on if we were working as intended Then why Nerf us ?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Don't worry i still remeber the Dev post by Moorgard  " We are working on a Ranged item for Cruasder's , unfortunatly it is a very involved process , so for the time being we are allowing Crusader Class to eqiup Orbs,Tomb's,Censor's in thier ranged Slot's to make up for the Lost stats that other classes get for thier Ranged Item's ""    </div><div> </div><div>So can uyou Dev's Please Atleast Answer When we are getting These Ranged Item's ? And i hope to Low Hell that they allow us to Cast a Spell on the Move <---This would be Cool and Class defining  , And  i  "Do Not"  Want a BOW , STAR, KNiFE,HAMMER</div><div> </div><div>and gimme my Crusader Cloak , i don't wan't no stinkin Skeletor helmet  </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Nakash]

I dont like to whine, but SK has enough problems with the aggro is group Managment "feature"So why must there be another backstab to the Sk who learned to live with this....I am abganist this fix cause it is not really one.I still hope someday a dev will have a second thought about some of the SK things."Hold the aggro by damage... with chained feets ?"ThanksAzzarothSK Valor<span></span><div></div>

[Boli32]

<blockquote>Anyone who isnt in beta arnt aware of the whining that is going on in the PvP forums and this was a major factor in PvP beta.</blockquote>I would just like to know WHAT made this ability so overpowering in PvP... aside from the solo HOs on the run I can't think of anything.Heck crank up the recast time to 1min-5min or something... it never gets used much at all aside from pulling.<div></div>

[Rocksthemic]

What made the paladin version so overpowering on PvP I would guess is that it has an interrupt component to the ranged spell. HOWEVER, that should have NOTHING to do with PvE. They stated they would be separate, but apparently not. This change is just horrible. I was fine with not having a bow and arrow, but pulling on the run is a huge part of pulling. No other fighter has to stop in his tracks and stand still for 2 seconds to pull, and neither should crusaders.Thundaarr - 60 PaladinUnrest<Nightcap><div></div>

[emr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rocksthemic wrote:What made the paladin version so overpowering on PvP I would guess is that it has an interrupt component to the ranged spell. HOWEVER, that should have NOTHING to do with PvE. They stated they would be separate, but apparently not. This change is just horrible. I was fine with not having a bow and arrow, but pulling on the run is a huge part of pulling. No other fighter has to stop in his tracks and stand still for 2 seconds to pull, and neither should crusaders.Thundaarr - 60 PaladinUnrest<div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course it has a huge impact in PvP.  And since Scott Hartsman LIED sbout PvE being seperate from PvP they are forced to nerf it.   But since sony only cares about the PvP crowd we get nerfed</span>

[Brentielal]

<div>And the pali banging continues.. How bout make us a pure caster line and make us wear Cloth, and then tell us that we are still tanks.. Jeez SoE thanks for another screw up...</div><div>Bends over and Takes it from SoE with a big smile.</div><div> </div>

[MorgothTheTerrib]

I my opinion, since they do this to Crusaders, they should make ranged abilities for Warriors and Brawlers interruptible. If they can move while pulling with a ranged technique, we should be able to. Again, Crusaders are put at a disadvantage apparently because of PvP which should have absolutely nothing to do with PvE. I mean seriously, we've been able to cast an move since November 2004 and you're taking it out now? What kind of sense does that make? Either SOE has never played a Crusader since launch or this is the stupidest idea ever. <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div>

[Foiled Aga]

<div></div><p>Or when they say “PVP will be separate from PVE” they had no idea what they were talking about. SOE really is a stupid company. They screwed up SWG beyond repair and they are on the way to doing so with EQ2. ::counts the days until Vanguard is released::</p><div></div>

[emr]

There is an easy fix. Set the spells back to how they were before we got nerfed in PvE.  To Balance PvP set the damage zero when cast on another player.

[Rylight]

<div></div>ummm.... I wouldnt really call that a fix, heres a fix...........<u>dont fix what isnt broken!</u>

[emr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rylight wrote:<div></div>ummm.... I wouldnt really call that a fix, heres a fix...........<u>dont fix what isnt broken!</u><hr></blockquote>I was be sarcastic.   In truth I do not care if PvP is balance or not since I think PvP does not belong in RPG.   But since Scott Hartsman claimed the PvP and PvE would be seperate.....</span><div></div>

[Kryptonix]

<div>wow 5 pages of posts and not a sinlge dev post...... yep this tells me "Lets just slowly kill the Crusaders, that way they stop playing the class." I have asked before on SK boards.... Have any of the Devs EVER played a Crusader class??? Sucks that I have to limit myself to being an effing statue, I wont even be able to cast pet on the move.... But who cares at least we can all PVP NOW!!! WHEEEEE!!!!! NO!</div><div> </div><div>*goes off and makes Brigand*</div>

[Arillonahia]

<div>Yep, they did it anyway with no justification what so ever, I would have settled for a bollocks reason, but not even that. Nevermind the fact that the speech of the very first NPC I met in this new wonderfull expansion wound me up because of its idiocy, but thats another matter because I'm an RP snob wanting a bit of seriousness once in a while rather than the majority of players and now NPC's treating it all like a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing joke. Ah well, best get myself to bed, I'll blame the beer and the fact Liverpool lost 1-0 tonight for even bothering to type this.....</div>

[troodon311]

<div></div>Just logged on and checked.  All we got left for pulling is our Siphon Strength line.  It's range 25m and can be cast on the run.  Long cast time, so we can't use it every pull, but it's better than just standing there.

[Kryptonix]

<div></div>yeah... im sure siphon strength would give us a lot of agro....

[TwistedFaith]

For what it's worth the same 'ninja nerf' to balance PvP was applied to the rangers debilitating arrow line. It had been in the game since launch, now all of a sudden we cant kite with it.PvP is SoE's golden goose and imho they'll do whatever they need to, to keep the PvP crowd happy.

[antwidemela]

<div></div><p>I was upset when i read about this change, then i found out that all of our stuns have been reduced to 1.0 sec and now I am furious! </p><p><font face="Comic Sans MS">All I know is that first, you've got to get mad.</font></p><p align="left"><font face="Comic Sans MS">You've gotta say, "I'm a PALADIN, goddammit! My TOON has value!"</font></p><p align="left"><font face="Comic Sans MS">So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell, </font><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#ff0000">"I'm as mad as hell,</font> <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#ff0000">and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"</font></p><p align="left"><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#ff0000">60 "Nerfed on every patch" Paladin</font></p><p align="left"><font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#ff0000"></font> </p>

[Graypa]

Here's another question to all this. Do we really need 6 ways to have our spells be ineffective? We can be dodged,parried, riposted, resisted,interrupted, and fizzled. This is the only game Ive ever played where using your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] abilities had so many ways of being negated.  And, lets not forget stunned and stiffled. Im supposed to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank, taking hits and keeping aggro. The last few days that has changed. Now, Im a tier 4 dps class with some neat armor.Darthiir Khaliss of Antonia Bayle, 60th lvl Shadowgimp/ 60th lvl Paper Armorer<div></div>

[xfres]

<div></div><p>STOP DOING STUPID THINGS SONY AND PUT BACK THE SK AND PALLY INSTANT NUKE DAMAGE LINE BACK THE WAY IT WAS.</p><p>WARRIORS GET BOWS TO PULL ON THE RUN, WE GET NUKES TO PULL ON THE RUN!</p><p>THATS HOW IT IS!!!! FIX IT!!! EITHER GIVE US THE CAPABILITY TO EQUIP A BOW OR CHANGE BACK OUR NUKES!</p>

[Lairdragna]

The sooner you realize that SOE could give two craps about what you think, the happier you will be... well, the less frustrated anyway.Sony lies.  The Devs lie.  The moderators make posts disappear that point that out.  I'm beside myself that this thread still exists.  I'm guessing its because nobody whose name appears in red has bothered to read it.  I came back from a couple months off to try the new expansion, and all I can ask myself is WHY?  I have played a paladin from day one.  I have dabled in other classes and hate them.  Paladins are a passion for me in on-line games.  I have never seen a class so abused as the crusaders have been.How long until Vanguard comes out?<div></div>