Brigand Changes???

[ukjay]

<b>Brigand changes:</b>- Amazing Reflexes will break if the Brigand takes damage. Its reuse timer after breaking is 30 seconds.You must be joking, Go check the feedback on the brigand class threads, How to kill a class defining skill in one foul swoop.Why give us a class defining skill just to nerf it back beyond any use. We are pure hands on DPS and Debuff, We need to be upclose to encounters since we lost our AOE and ranged abilities. We debuff for an entire raid.  Yet now with damage shields on mobs etc, we will be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near useless.Please reconsider before brigands dwindle into non existance!<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>Moreso when one considers how compelling Rangers are as Scouts, stand outside AoE range and rain death from afar... no harm to Rangers, happy for them to be doing what they are, just confused as to why this change to the least played Scout and one of the least played classes in the game was fealt to be necessary. There's been one or two occasions on Splitpaw where in the early hours of the morning, I've been the only Brigand logged in I kid you not.</p><p>Some players chose to play a Brigand instead of a Shashbuckler, Assassin or Ranger solely on the basis of AE. Reports from beta players are suggesting you'll be lucky to keep AE up for 5 seconds. It means absolutely any source of damage including misc mobs in the encounter, damage shields etc.</p><p>Scouts need viable alternatives to the Ranger. No, that absolutely doesn't mean nerfing Rangers. It most definately doesn't mean nerfing the least played class. I'm in the 4th largest guild on Splitpaw, and the only Brigand played as a main and the highest level Brigand at only level 42... I chose to play a Brigand last Autumn because of AE.</p><p>Those visiting this issue keep in mind whether you like this change or hate this change, think it's necessary or wholly unwarranted what is undeniable is it's about to push the already increadibly low Brigand population right through the floor.... it really is hard to argue that a class is in any way overpowered when so few people play it.</p><p>The #1 most numerous guild on Splitpaw has 1 Brigand main, level 40.</p><p>Both these guilds are packed to the gills with other Scouts but Brigands somehow present a compelling need to be adjusted. It makes no kind of sense.</p><p>I'd urge the devs to simply not do this. It's not a warranted change. As attractive a skill as it is, it still doesn't make the Brigand anything other than the least played Scout and (I think) the second least played class in the game overall.</p><p>It's further worth noting, that no counterbalancing ranged CA are being introduced. And Rangers don't pack the punch to make jousting anything other than a huge drop in raid dps.</p><p>The Brigand forum is just completely stunned.</p>

[Fennir]

It seems to me that the idea behind the change is to punish the brigand if they get agro, which is probably the kind of downside a powerful buff like AR needs, one that is negotiable depending on how skillfull you are.<div></div>They should add a component to AR that makes you immune to damage shields if you're behind the mob you're attacking.

[cultus_fer]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:It seems to me that the idea behind the change is to punish the brigand if they get agro, which is probably the kind of downside a powerful buff like AR needs, one that is negotiable depending on how skillfull you are.<div></div>They should add a component to AR that makes you immune to damage shields if you're behind the mob you're attacking.<hr></blockquote><p>well it's also a sort of taunt, so there's the downside of it.</p><p>master 1 is 10% hate gain.</p>

[Timesquare]

<div></div>i don't like this change either , but will see when it goes live and probably theres a better?? spell for lv 61+ , who knows

[pillb]

<div></div>This change to Brigands is unecessary. Amazing Reflexes was their class defining skill theres no point being a Brigand with this new crappy Reflex's It's complete junk now.Adds, stunned tank, damage shield, and Brigand general hate, all are reasons Refelxes will be down and usless now. All they have is tier 2 dps and debuffs and the way KoS is looking Assasins get all the flashy DPS and Brigands AA'sare complete crap. Nurfing Brigands is the last thing that needed to be done this change had better not go live.<div></div><p>Message Edited by pillbub on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:41 AM</span></p>

[Ghartan]

<div></div><p>Let me make sure I understand this ... but ..</p><p>... if the Brigand is able to control his aggro  ... has group members that do their job (eg, debuff damage shields, crowd control adds, etc) ...</p><p>... then there is absolutely no change in the skills performance on a raid??</p><p>Just asking :smileytongue:</p>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>cultus_ferox wrote:<div>well it's also a sort of taunt, so there's the downside of it.</div><p>master 1 is 10% hate gain.</p><hr></blockquote>cool so it's sort of like my spellwhich has 10% hate gain at master 1 when i turn it onand if i get agro and the mob runs to me it stops shooting and i have to turn it off manually</span></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>It's a very reasonable question Ghartan, and it's good that you asked it. If you talk to the Brigands on test however it quickly becomes clear that in this case there's a big difference between what's on paper and what actually happens. In practice it would seem the Brigands on test aren't managing to keep AE up for more than 5 sec at a time. You have to remeber the window under which all the circumstances you rightly raise are brought under control all at the same time and all remain under control all at the same time is in actuality a very small window indeed. I would imagine the designer who forwarded this change thought it looked ok on paper but has yet to actually check it in practice.</p><p>I'd also reiterate, what was the percieved need to produce a "balancing change" for the least played Scout?</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div><span>cool so it's sort of like my spellwhich has 10% hate gain at master 1 when i turn it onand if i get agro and the mob runs to me it stops shooting and i have to turn it off manually</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>No, it's not really very similar. Firstly your aggro is easier to control, substantially so. Secondly you're not landing serious debuffs. Thirdly you're stood off to the side not in the thick of things. Lastly there's 4 times as many of you as there is me.</p>

[Ghartan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p>It's a very reasonable question Ghartan, and it's good that you asked it. If you talk to the Brigands on test however it quickly becomes clear that in this case there's a big difference between what's on paper and what actually happens. In practice it would seem the Brigands on test aren't managing to keep AE up for more than 5 sec at a time. You have to remeber the window under which all the circumstances you rightly raise are brought under control all at the same time and all remain under control all at the same time is in actuality a very small window indeed. I would imagine the designer who forwarded this change thought it looked ok on paper but has yet to actually check it in practice.</p><p>I'd also reiterate, what was the percieved need to produce a "balancing change" for the least played Scout?</p><hr></blockquote>So perhaps the concept of the changes is reasonable (eg, reward raid groups that work well together) ... it's just that the desired effect isn't being realized yet due to bugs ?!?

[ukjay]

Just to clear up a point made,If we get aggro with the original AR it becomes ineffective anyway. The AR only work if we are not the target.So at the moment if we get aggro, we are open to AOE anyway.With the change any damage will knock it off , So adds, damage shields, Manastone etc etc etc and with a 30 second cast time after its been knocked off!Basically the change will kill it, From test reports its dead already!For the love of god, dont kill the skill that actually lets us do our job!<div></div>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p>No, it's not really very similar. Firstly your aggro is easier to control, substantially so. Secondly you're not landing serious debuffs. Thirdly you're stood off to the side not in the thick of things. Lastly there's 4 times as many of you as there is me.</p><hr></blockquote>This isn't a brigand vs. ranger argument.  I was illustrating that there is often more than one downside to a given spell, especially powerful ones.Also I'm not really sure what the number of people playing a class has to do with how its balanced.  "Oh there are only 12 of us so give us the best skills!" lolI already told our brigand about the change and he said "well if they fix the bugs it won't be so bad because AR is one of the strongest skills in the game right now."  And for the record, I get agro more than he does.</span></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>Yes the number of players playing a class absolutely does matter.... There aren't as many people playing Rangers as the rest of the Scout population put together because Rangers suck, its because Rangers are such a powerful class.... and before anybody jumps on that it doesn't ruffle my feathers at all Rangers shining so brightly.</p><p>It does matter because you simply have a really hard time arguing in any way that Brigand skills are overpowered compared to Swashbucklers, Assassins or Rangers when they are the least played class.</p><p>Consider that you as a Ranger have a a perminant, zero power cost Amazing Reflexes... it's called standing out of range and using a bow... now tell me that AR is the most powerful skill in the game.</p><p>It's unfair for Brigands not to have to joust?.... How about we extend AoE range to encompass bow range.... now imagine how the Ranger community would feel.</p>

[MagicWand]

<div>The goal of the Devs must be to have 90% of all scouts on each server becoming rangers.   Because their outrageous DPS (basically tops in most raids) in a safe distance from the bad guys makes them a very popular choice for people.  </div><div> </div><div>Just wait til you will be able change your class in the near future and we will get even more rangers into the mix.   I never seen an imbalance of classes ever in any game.  But the ranger takes the cake.</div>

[Fennir]

<div></div>Please don't act like this is a recent development that has anything to do with gameplay.  Rangers were always the #1 most popular scout class, since launch, and brigands were always the least popular class, mostly because they were evil and not an assassin.  And don't act like rangers were exactly the top of the pile before LU13.  I was routinely outdamaged by brigands on raids for almost a year.  Or did you guys forget that?I guarantee you the devs do not focus on how many people are playing a class when working on balance issues.  If one guy has a bazooka and everyone else has a pea shooter, they're not gonna say "oh well it's only one dude."  He's gonna get nerfed.  Not saying that's the magnitude of the issue here, but I'm not a dev.I'm not arguing that brigands are overpowered nor did I ask for this change.  I don't think you can go through an MMO without having some of your abilities nerfed.  It's just to be expected, so when it happens, we try to roll with it, as should you.   And standing out of AOE range is all well and good until we (or someone else next to us) pulls agro and we wipe the raid or get wiped to someone elses mistake.  As for extending AOE range?  Feel free.  I already own 5 sets of resist gear in preparation for these mobs and will adapt and overcome just like I always have.I would bet that swashies and assassins feel it's pretty unfair that brigands don't have to joust, though.If they made damage shields not drop the spell, I really don't think you have anything to complain about.  We all get nerfed.  We will all get nerfed.  It's just in the cards.  Try to understand where the devs are coming from and how you can offer feedback to help their decisions instead of worrying about where you're gonna stand when the sky falls.<p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:<div></div> I don't think you can go through an MMO without having some of your abilities nerfed.  It's just to be expected, so when it happens, we try to roll with it, as should you.  <hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I hope you remember those words when the nerf stick hits the overpowered ranger class in the [Removed for Content] and you know its going to happen.</p>

[Fennir]

Considering I've been saying those words since the beginning of the game, when rangers sucked and weren't invited on raids unless we were leading them, I'm sure I'll have no problem, kiddo.<div></div>

[some_perso]

<div></div><div>Brigands, please stay focused here.  This topic isn't Rangers vs. Us or lets get mad at rangers because they can do good dps out of AoE range.  This is about whether the nurf while unbalance the brigand class, rangers have nothing to do with it.  Currently both classes are capable of good dps and both classes risk pulling agro if they let that dps get too high (no scout class can just wail on a mobs back and not have a surer chance of pulling than if they had rescue lol).</div><div><span><font color="#ffffff"></font></span> </div><div><span><font color="#ffffff">I tend to agree with </font><span><font color="#ffffff">Ghartan, perhaps this change wasn't meant as a complete nurf to our skill, but rather just make it require better coordination to keep up.  If they figured out a way to let it stay on if I use Manastone, that Vessel of Fryun (manastone 2), and take damage shield dmg without losing AR I don't think it'd be too bad.  If we actually have to take Autoattack dmg from a mob to lose it than while it is nerfed it is not useless.  I've been raiding Court of Al'Afax, LJ, and Gates of Aken once a week for the last several weeks and have rarely taken autoattack dmg while the tank is up, when I do its usually my own fault by not watching my agro enough.  Sure on adds autoattack dmg tends to fly but usually raid mobs only have about 3 of them at most and you have your secondary tank pull them away from the main mob anyways.  Basically if the devs mean to make it so I have to have agro of a mob to lose my AR I think thats an ok nerf because that happens so rarely I'd still be able to use AR most of the time, however I'm not in beta of coarse so if another brigand with higher end raiding expericence wishes to comment I'm all ears.</font></span></span></div><div><span><span><font color="#ffffff"></font></span></span> </div><div><span><span><font color="#ffffff">The primary problem with this nerf is it makes us useless on anything with a damage shield, and I don't think thats called for.</font></span></span></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><div></div><p><em>"I would bet that swashies and assassins feel it's pretty unfair that brigands don't have to joust, though."</em></p><p>Swashie and Assassin raid dps is balanced around their jousting. We have no ranged skills, and we don't out of the box do as much damage as a Swashbuckler.... you're ignoring the fact that <strong>our skills are not balanced for jousting in raids.</strong> Nor have any appropriate skills been put in place to allow for the fact that we'll now be jousting. Brigands have an edge on Swashie damage in raids, and Swashies have an edge on Brigands in groups, and that's on the basis of Brigands maintaining melee throughout a raid. Now Swashies will have the edge in groups, and a significant edge on raids.</p><p>Swashies are the better Rogue for groups, and Brigands are the better Rogue for raids. Without AR, Swashies are simply the better Rogue.</p><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:59 AM</span></p>

[Atrocity]

When AR was  given to brigands it allowed us to do a very specific job on raids very well.  Get in and debuff the mob continuiously during the fight *IF* we can ensure we don't draw the agro away from the main tank.How AR helped us do this:1) We can stand right next to the mt during the pull and go to work right away.  Debuffing the mob right off the bat often helps the healers keep the  tank up while we're all getting the encounter under control.2) We can call out our debuffs so that ranged dps can pour it on when the big/relevant debuffs hit.  Since we can stand in range the entire time we can cycle these buffs as often as possible as well as using the debuffs that soften the mob up for the MT.3) Since our debuffs are positional being right in the fight from the start and not having to dash in and out allows us to maintain the required positions for effective debuffing of the mob.End result:Entire raid dps increases when a brigand does his job right.  Using AR has very little to do with brigand dps.  When you see the brigand in there swinging away he is balancing his debuffs against agro and trying to ensure the mob stays debuffed without taking agro from the MT.  In most cases the brigand is saving his dps cas until the very end of the fight or until the "burn it down now" call.The change to AR:When a brigand takes *any* type of damage (damage shield, hits from adds/other mobs, hits from boss mob, use of manastone or vessel) AR will drop and is not castable for 30 seconds.  The brigand will most likely die from a serious AE if he does not joust out with the rest of the raid. End result:Entire raid dps decreases.  DPS of every class will go down compared to what it was when a brigand was using his abilities effectively in a raid.  The few brigands that currently exist  will become fewer.  Good luck finding your dps multiplier for the raid.For everyone who thinks that brigands should have this taken away, ask yourself why you want to see your raid's dps go down.  This is a horrible change for brigands as it makes it much more difficult for us to do our raid role.  This is a horrible change for all other classes as it removes one more tactic to use on raids to increase dps.  Realize that this is not just a nerf to brigands but a nerf to raids across the board and will affect all dps classes on raids that have a brigand along.Vlademir DelereLucan D'lere<div></div>

[ZababEW]

<div></div>stop complaining brigand is the overpower class atm after all other nerf to all other class, Find me 1 class who dont care about ae, do a .... load of dps, to be a way more powerful then their brother of the good side, with the best debuff ever of all melee. The change to AR up and they will probably nerf it more and more like they did for ranger stream of arrows.

[ukjay]

best meelee debuff, err ryeah. Thats our job. So that everyone else raises DPS.Jesus what a muppet. Please only post constructive on this thread and leave class envy elsewhere.This nerf affect everyone, and is unneeded and hurts the Brigands role.<div></div>

[Rezikai]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ZababEW wrote:<div></div>stop complaining brigand is the overpower class atm after all other nerf to all other class, Find me 1 class who dont care about ae, do a .... load of dps, to be a way more powerful then their brother of the good side, with the best debuff ever of all melee. The change to AR up and they will probably nerf it more and more like they did for ranger stream of arrows.<hr></blockquote><p>one... grammar and sentence structure are your friends... oh excuse me.. FrIndz.</p><p>two... we dont do more Dps then Tier 1 dps classes.. unless those tier 1 classes next to us are being piloted by monkeys... and stupid monkeys that dont know enough about their own class to otudamage us</p><p>three... swashies already out damage us on ranged attacks so that "brother on good side" whatever the heck kinda sentence that means i assume would be that we do more then swashies.. well that doesnt hold water now does it...</p><p>four... we're not the only debuffing class</p><p>five.. the above shows you why were upset about "getting benched"</p><p>six.. other classes.. and pets are getting this ability while the least played class in the game gets it nerfed... bad nerf to.. w/ a stinger...</p><p>(walks over to my buddy.. the ENCHANTER... hey man.. here for some company)</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Porkchop133 on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:55 PM</span></p>

[Cerivus2]

<div></div><p>Changes to AR as a Brigand Class Defining skillset are not needed.</p><p>I would urge every Raider to SHOUT about this issue. Limiting the ability and making one class near worthless is not a solution. Your raid will feel the pain of this drastic change in class structure. The Brigand class is not about DPS but about Utility. In raid environments, Brigands are about Debuff and constant T2 damage over time. It is our Debuffs and our AR combat ability that allows the Ranger and Assas to put out the big numbers. Killing the AR ability will kill all classes abilities to raid effectivly. In place of screaming nerf, all classes should be in support of the Brigand community to keep the AR utility unchanged.</p>

[some_perso]

<div>"The change to AR up and they will probably nerf it more and more like they did for ranger stream of arrows."</div><div> </div><div>Just because your best skill got nurfed doesn't mean we should have our's nerfed.  Also this isn't just a nice damage move of ours thats getting nerfed, its nothing like when ruse got nurfed but brigands could still use every other combat art in groups/raids.  AR is our class defining skill.  As one of the above posters mentioned, Brig's are not suppose to be t1 dps, preditors are suppose to and usually do out dps us.  Rangers have about 11 ranged bow based combat arts that can be used at a range, and Assassins have about 4 ranged combat arts and most there dps is designed for jousting (having high reuse timers but high dmg).  Even swashies have the throwing version of Stream of Arrows to use from afar. </div><div> </div><div>Frankly I think the dev's have just overlooked the implication of making AR go down with damage.  Personally, if you get hit by an add or pull agro or what not for just a second and that causes u to back up for 30seconds to get AR back up I don't think thats too much of a nerf.  However this current change does so much more than that, it makes manastone/vessel/shards worthless for Brigands for one thing.  Also it makes our class virtually worthless on any raid mob that has an AE and a damage shield.  <u>Bringands should not be made worthless against epics with damage shields.</u>  No other class has to face this prospect. </div><div> </div><div>There are no mob abilities that keep Bards from casting there buffs, or keep Rangers from doing there ranged dps, so why should some keep Brigands from dodging there AEs?</div><div> </div>

[Scort]

Welcome to OUR world now. Welcome to the world of SOE nerfs. I never thought I would see Brigands get nerfed but, guess even they have bosses.This is SO typical of SOE. Give you something for awhile, try and get you hooked and bam. Just as a lot of people start switching to a certain class.Every time they give classes god skills and then more and more people start playing them for that skill, they nerf the crap out of them and give another class a god skill. Then people switch to that class and then they nerf it and then another class and so on. Right now, it's Rangers that people are wanting to play because of the power. I imagine it will be nerfed too before long.

[Helmongrel]

<div></div>Lets not forget teh nerfing of Double up recently.  Removing Flashy Throw from double up ability. What is next? You take a rare class and begin to nerf the heck out of it. What about nerfing Conjurors and Necros. Or if want to nerf a scout nerf rangers more   lol.

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>The Wizards and Warlocks are behind you getting nerf'd.  They hate all scouts and wish for them all to be nerf'd.</p><p>This is a really bad change and should not go to live.  If there is to be a change to AR to get it inline with the other ancient teaching skills add a recurring mana cost to it.  That is one of the things they changed to Stream and one that is a correct fix to make it equal to other classes special skills with recurring mana cost.  Other then that AR should stay as is.</p><p> </p><p>PS - I've decided to blame all changes and problems on the Wizards and Warlocks.  I figure its's fair play since they single out my class for all their perceived problems.</p><p> </p>

[Land]

I have only one question. WHY? .... why is there a need to nerf AR? Whats the reason? How make AR Brigs to powerful, so that it need a nerf?AR nerf is a slap in the face of each raiding Brig or a Brig who want to. Maybe Brigs not suposed to raiding.I'm a little bit frustated...<div></div>

[Kinan]

I simply don't understand why.If SOE really doesn't want us to be close to the mob all the time (as mentioned above there is a plethora of reasons why AR _will_ drop forcing us to run out of range and back in) it seems they see us in a different role than we currently fill. Ok.But, given our abilites, what could that role actually be? I don't see it. It's not pure damage. Rangers and Assassins outdamage us easily. Which is quite likely a good thing, they're called Predators for a reason and they're also lacking the major debuffs we have. They even do on AEing mobs. I've parsed a ton of raid zones lately and I don't even play in the same league as our top two rangers. They outdamage me with a 50 to 100 per cent difference. And yes, that's with me using 14 Master level abilities. Actually Conjurors mostly outdamage me, as well. [For the record: no Necromancers or Warlocks in those parses, sorry, I can't compare you as for Raids]From this I take it we're not supposed to be the main damage dealing class. Ok.How about debuffing? Well, we cannot do that if we're not meleeing the mob. So we could only debuff the mob half of the time if we have to watch the AEs. That will drop the raid's overall DPS by a large margin. And that's a fact. Ever heard a Wizard say, "Woot!" when his Ice Comet does almost twice as much damage than usual if he times it well and it hits when my 3 related debuffs are in? It might just turn back into "Bah!" from now on.And what is that change's supposed purpose? AR already does not help us avoid the AE if we have aggro. So the reason cannot be to force us into some better aggro management. I mean, believe me, I do not _ever_ want to have aggro on a 65 Epic x4. Hey, Guardians, you can have it. All yours!As one of the earlier posters said our skills are pretty well balanced on raids when we stick to the mob and do our damage all the time. Even _then_ we're "just" (and justly) Tier 2 damage dealers. But our skills are simply disgusting when we have to 'joust'.As for experience groups... I got a pretty good amount of Master level skills and I still get outdamaged by Conjurors, Rangers, Berserkers (!), Swashbucklers, Assassins, Wizards, Warlocks, whatnot ... it all depends on the circumstances (time between pulls, amount of mobs per pull, dificulty of mobs in the pull, etc.). That's life. Heck, I've been in groups where the highest DPS came from an Illusionist. And consistently so. [Finding out the circumstances is left as an exercise to the reader <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />]But I still cannot see what _good_ this change is supposed to bring. I only see it as being bad.My 2 cents.--Viin (60 Brigand) / Kinanea (60 Fury & 60 Tailor)Permafrost

[MexStrat]

<div></div><p>I too agree this change is bad.  As does nearly my entire guild,  those that don't agree, choose to abstain, for not knowing enough about what brigands do.</p><p>Of these two groups I cheer those that abstain ... people that know enough to know they don't know enough.</p><p>At last record,  the brigand community is still waiting for some word from a member of developement or design that explains the reasoning behind the change.</p>

[ReynardTheFox]

I'm a level 60 ranger and I see no reason for this change. Brigands weren't exactly overflowing on the servers using this skill to trivialise T6 raid content.I've said it before and I'll say it again, SOE have no idea how their own game works.<div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<div>Brigands claim this change will hurt the entire raid, if that is true then the skill was overpowered as no class should be that essential.</div><div>Wiz/war have been tryin to get a dev responce pretty much since combat revamp and so far failed, why brigands would get one within a few days when classes that affect more players doesnt get any is beyond me.</div><div> </div><div>Amazing Reflexes is an ancient teaching, none of those are upgraded, so the question isnt <em>if</em> brigands will need to joust on raids, its <em>when</em> will brigands need to joust.</div><div> </div><div>If ye look at population statistics, <em>all</em> freeport only classes are lower in population then their qyenos version, as freeport is less attractive choise.</div><div>Swashie > brigand, illusionist > coercer, mystic > defiler, templar > inquisitor, monk > bruiser, ranger > assassain, conjuror > necromancer. There is not a single case of an evil only class with higher population then the good one, and this has nothing at all to do with character skills. Also, population in general has nothing to do with how good a class is, its all about how good players <em>think</em> they are. Both rogue classes have done their best to discourage new rogues in forums since combat revamp.</div><div> </div><div>100% immunity to somethin that would have killed ye in one shot... and ye can spam deagro whilst using it.. and its not overpowered?</div><div>The times we raid without our brigand, we have the same success rate as when he is there, not once have we said 'doh, the brig isnt here, lets cancel raid'. Its possible it will have an affect on a few encounters, but it will not have the doomsday effect that some expect.</div><div> </div><div>Ill shut up for now, there is classes out there thats way worse off, and lets hope KoS will be desently debugged before it goes live.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Styk]

<div></div><p>Typical SoE BS , 6 years now and running..... They take one step foward, the proceed to take two steps back. There is no need what so ever for AR to be nerfed, I mean as both a Berserker and Warlock ive seen many things i would like to be improved on those classes , but ive always seen a Brgaind as a BALANCED class period................ Now with the AR nerf you are not only gonna undue what ever good change brigands recieved in the CC , you are gonna make raiding a whole lot tougher ( which is not a bad thing but the reward better be worth the risk )</p><p>Keep at it Sony, i mean your two step dance seems to be getting better and better each year you use it .... ( remember one step forward, two steps back )</p>

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p>First off, I would like to say thanks for letting me know that jousting AEs doesn't effect my DPS as an Assassin, because I knew all along that my 200-300 DPS drop on jousted mobs was just a fluke that happened on every mob that needs to be jousted....</p><p>Now that I got the sarcasm out of the way....  Jousting mobs as an Assassin effects our DPS in a big way....  The majority of our attacks require stealth, which is broken when you take AE damage, and position behind the mob....   Any time we have to joust a mob, our DPS will drop roughly 200-300 DPS....  We do not have the ranged CAs that Rangers do, so we lose DPS every time we have to back out because the AE is comming.....  We also lose the ability to keep our debuffs on the mobs continiously (yes, we have 2 different debuffs that reduce the mobs defence (by ~70) which will go along ways in allowing people to hit them)</p><p> </p><p>Ok, now for the nerf to AR.... </p><p>I don't mind Brigands being able to stay on the mob through the AEs, as they are a utility class that specializes in debuffing, and they are not an extreame DPS class, but to give them total immunity might be a bit overpowering....  If they feel that AR needs a chance to break, then it should only break on a direct attack...  IE..  If the Brigand pulls agro and the mob decides to smack or nuke them, sure let it break AR, that will teach the Brigand to not pull agro...  I do not however agree with AR being broken for using Manastone 1 & 2, or Damage Shields...  From what I have seen so far, Damage Shields on mobs can not be dispelled (have tried dispelling them many times to no avail), so I don't think they should be punished for something that we as players can not effect...  Manastone 1 & 2 is just a no brainer, aside from the damage that you do to yourself, it should not adversly effect your buffs (aside from dropping invis)</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 60 Assassin - Kithicor</p>

[emr]

Welcome to your PvP caused class nerf. Crusaders got theirs and the rest of the classes will be getting them too I bet.  SONY claimed PvP would not affect PvE, well just as I said it would here it is

[Cragger]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Iseabeil wrote:<div>Brigands claim this change will hurt the entire raid, if that is true then the skill was overpowered as no class should be that essential.</div><div>Wiz/war have been tryin to get a dev responce pretty much since combat revamp and so far failed, why brigands would get one within a few days when classes that affect more players doesnt get any is beyond me.</div><div> </div><div>Amazing Reflexes is an ancient teaching, none of those are upgraded, so the question isnt <em>if</em> brigands will need to joust on raids, its <em>when</em> will brigands need to joust.</div><div> </div><div>If ye look at population statistics, <em>all</em> freeport only classes are lower in population then their qyenos version, as freeport is less attractive choise.</div><div>Swashie > brigand, illusionist > coercer, mystic > defiler, templar > inquisitor, monk > bruiser, ranger > assassain, conjuror > necromancer. There is not a single case of an evil only class with higher population then the good one, and this has nothing at all to do with character skills. Also, population in general has nothing to do with how good a class is, its all about how good players <em>think</em> they are. Both rogue classes have done their best to discourage new rogues in forums since combat revamp.</div><div> </div><div><strong>100% immunity to somethin that would have killed ye in one shot... and ye can spam deagro whilst using it.. and its not overpowered?</strong></div><div>The times we raid without our brigand, we have the same success rate as when he is there, not once have we said 'doh, the brig isnt here, lets cancel raid'. Its possible it will have an affect on a few encounters, but it will not have the doomsday effect that some expect.</div><div> </div><div>Ill shut up for now, there is classes out there thats way worse off, and lets hope KoS will be desently debugged before it goes live.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>Then extend AE range to 50m if you wish to use that arguments because priests, mages, and rangers all have 100% immunity to one shot AEs by standing outside their range and it does nothing to effect their performance or function.</p><p>Oh I might also add that priests get the same thing as AR now in one of their advancement paths, and they don't even really need it.</p><p>Message Edited by Cragger on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:12 AM</span></p>

[Neue Reg]

<div></div><p>1.  This is not a (insert scout class name here) vs Brigand thread.</p><p>2.  If you notice the inital post asked that no classes be nerfed.</p><p>3.  lol someone actually said our debuffs arent that bug a deal anyway? (or something to that effect).</p><p>4.  The Brigand community wants a reply from the devs with regard to this change,  I dont think thats too much to ask.</p><p>5.  Please dont hijack or derail this thread, theres plenty of threads in the Brigand section for you to cry about unfair class balance.</p><p>6.  This nerf and stream of arrows arent remotly related in any way shape or form.</p><p>7.  If its a dps issue then why did a resent update increase all scouts dps.  I am sure if you asked most brigands would give up some dps to retain this skill.  We know our roles and are used to playing it.</p><p>8.  I havent spoken to one person in my guild (yes we are hitting t6 stuff, and not just the [Removed for Content] LJ stuff) and this includes scout classes.</p><p>9.  Rangers dont have to worry about ae, well havent seen one in my guild complain yet, so rangers of all classes have no beef.  The jousting assassins in my guild do more dmg than I do (bc im constantly worried about timing on debuffs).</p><p>10.  This is one of the spells given to us in the DoF expansion pack.  Double up has had skills removed, AR is now being changed.</p><p>11.  For those that raid I am going to assume that you know this already, for those that dont raid, this change doesnt effect you one bit.  With that said, have you noticed an increased ammount of mobs getting stealth dmg shields?  Yep, they sure are.  There are mobs in gates that now hove dmg shields, and some in PPR also.  O yea, forgot to mention that they are SK mobs, so the dmg shield is undispellable.</p><p>12.  I could live with AR not dropping due to self inflicted dmg (Vessal (sp?) and Manastone) and Dmg shields.  However, multiple times on a raid last night I used multiple deagros to get away from agro, the mob didnt ae while I was targeted, so I was ok.</p><p>13.  If you are a raider, ask the brigand to sit out a trival raid mob, or ask them to joust it.  Run the tests on your own, use a very specific dps parser...and you will see the difference.  Just coming here with class envy or to say a class is overpowered based on a skill that helps an entire raid without strong knowledge of the facts and tests, is just crazy.  Do the tests, youll see it I promise.  I have.</p><p> </p><p>This post isnt ment to attack anyone or any class.  All the Brigand Community is asking for is a post from a dev to explain why this is happening.  Its not a DPS ISSUE, if it was, scouts would not have got a boost in a resent update.</p><p>Also I challenge all of the naysayers, to actually do some tests and get the results.</p><p>The only class I can remotely see having any beef is Swashy's!  O hell, just give them the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] skill too already, or give them something more to define their class.  I do not support any class or combat art being nerfed, and I surely dont continually push for it, and gloat about it when it happens.  I know that class balancing is always an issue, and I am quite sure that every class has many issues.  Why dont you guys concentrate on your own class instead of worrying about a change that has 0 to do with you. </p><p>I am sure your class could use your help to change the problems with your class!</p><p> </p>

[Kegofbud]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p>11.  For those that raid I am going to assume that you know this already, for those that dont raid, this change doesnt effect you one bit.  With that said, have you noticed an increased ammount of mobs getting stealth dmg shields?  Yep, they sure are.  There are mobs in gates that now hove dmg shields, and some in PPR also.  O yea, forgot to mention that they are SK mobs, so the dmg shield is undispellable.</p><p>12.  I could live with AR not dropping due to self inflicted dmg (Vessal (sp?) and Manastone) and Dmg shields.  However, multiple times on a raid last night I used multiple deagros to get away from agro, the mob didnt ae while I was targeted, so I was ok.</p><p>13.  If you are a raider, ask the brigand to sit out a trival raid mob, or ask them to joust it.  Run the tests on your own, use a very specific dps parser...and you will see the difference.  Just coming here with class envy or to say a class is overpowered based on a skill that helps an entire raid without strong knowledge of the facts and tests, is just crazy.  Do the tests, youll see it I promise.  I have.</p><p> </p><p>This post isnt ment to attack anyone or any class.  All the Brigand Community is asking for is a post from a dev to explain why this is happening.  Its not a DPS ISSUE, if it was, scouts would not have got a boost in a resent update.</p><p>Also I challenge all of the naysayers, to actually do some tests and get the results.</p><p>The only class I can remotely see having any beef is Swashy's!  O hell, just give them the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] skill too already, or give them something more to define their class.  I do not support any class or combat art being nerfed, and I surely dont continually push for it, and gloat about it when it happens.  I know that class balancing is always an issue, and I am quite sure that every class has many issues.  Why dont you guys concentrate on your own class instead of worrying about a change that has 0 to do with you. </p><p>I am sure your class could use your help to change the problems with your class!</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Lot of good points, all the way through. It's a bad change; we have every right to be angry about it. Complaints from other classes are made without class knowledge.  No other nerf has ever hit a class defining CA so hard. I really hope this is not working entirely as entended because if it's not, I won't reroll. I'll rebuy a different game. I'm tired of redefining play styles and arts every 6 months, just tired. If DPS is an issue, that can be dropped, but not a skill that allows us to do our job for the raid. Tier 5 we were a joke on raids. This skill made us worth having. Quite honestly, the lack of any response on this, let alone our ranged CA nerf, are what drive me crazy the most.

[Damari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Neue Regel wrote:<div></div><p>All the Brigand Community is asking for is a post from a dev to explain why this is happening. </p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not expecting any comments from the Dev's TBH and if we do actually get one, it will be a poorly devised spiel about gameplay that was originally introduced by a department that now doesn't exist or that the mechanics were'nt really understood when it was i<strong>mplemented 6 months</strong> <strong>ago</strong>, ie, no-one tested it.</p><p>The best we can do now is let it go live, buy resist eq and let the raiding results speak for themselves.  If the results are as poor as we speculate, the raiding community will do the shouting for us.</p>

[Riversideblues]

unfortunately, most would rather have comparitavely better characters, than better raid results<div></div>

[Lyasa]

if they'd like to change it to "struck by a melee weapon" rather than "takes damage" i would be for this change, so long as it doesn't work as it seems to be working in beta atm (heard that it doesn't seem to be staying up for more than a few seconds at a time, due to, perhaps, bugs)if it was changed to melee weapon, similar to how damage shields proc, the skill would drop when a brigand gets hit directly by a mob, instead of self-inflicted damage (manastone) or on reactive damage (thornstorm/voracious soul).on live servers currently, the effects of amazing reflexes are voided if the mob is targetting the brigand and an AE goes off, has happened a few times, usually when a mob resists inital taunt and rake, debilitate, or dispatch is used.i can see how this skill can be overpowering, but don't believe it should be useless on a SK , druid, or other DS-casting mob, or render manastone and vessel unusable.<div></div>

[haev]

<div></div><p>Devs - The nerf is fine you just need to adjust it so it is not affected by manastone or damage shields. It is fine if we pull agro and loose the buff. But the whole buff is useless unless you make this minor adjustment and make the CA working as originally intended.</p><p> </p><p>An easy way? Just as it now, the mob has to <u>target </u>the brigand to loose the buff. 30sec recast no problem.</p>

[Akacia]

I feel the problem here having been a Brigand since day 1 of Everquest 2 and am one of the most needed classes on our raids for debuffing that the folks here who are fluffing off just what this ability does for a Brigand really has no clue as to what debuff abilities a Brigand has.First off you all do realise a Brigand does not hit worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with ALL abilities? We do not have a 10K attack, hell not even a 3K attack unless you count Ruse which they nerfed ages ago and have to get hit by the mob while sitting face down in the dirt for it to go off - useless.So take into account just how low the DPS a brigand does - Tier 2 is pretty close to on par compared to Assassins and the like, the only reason we overall average decent DPS is because we in fact can stay in constantly debuffing a mob on a raid or fight or whatever it is. A note for the Assassin there who said how much jousting affects your DPS, I truly feel sorry for the class when our Assassins still DPS upwards to 3 or 4 times a Brigand and every other class for that matter with jousting, so basically you jousting is nothing in compared to what losing Amazing Reflexes will mean to your jousted DPS from Brigand debuffs and I guess us Brigands can run back in no problem and still hit for 700damage here and there.It's truly amazing that this abilitiy is even thought of for a nerf, Amazing reflexes for those who do not know can drop and does drop now if a Brigand is hit on a raid if the mob is attacking directly via AOE, a Brigand now does have to manage aggro very much or this is obviously a problem as does the group setup.Nerf away but expect everyone's raid/group damage to significantly drop and thats an understatement and look for a lot of people to not play their brigands anymore as they continue to hit mobs for under 1k damage with most of their attacks. I wish we had a 20K hit abilitiy.......Raziel<p>Message Edited by Akacia on <span class=date_text>10-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Akacia on <span class=date_text>10-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>whether or not your dps is acceptable has nothing to do with AR nerf. The problem was in the design of AR it became an absolute. And a good brigand does not pull agro in raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As much as you want to say its the community and some sinster goal of people to ner brigands its not. The developers want raids to be challenging, they want every class to get hit with AoE's. It is not intendeed AR as an anceint spell to be the class defining ability for brigands. No ancient teaching is. You will still be able to avoid AoE's. You just need to know how to play your class better. Instead of hitting the "i win" button. If AR in beta is dropping faster then the intended duration it will be fixed. But you have to realise absolutes and extremely poor game designs. And absolute immunity to AoE's was a poor decision. It requires very little skill to play a brigand because of this. 1 troub,or  a coercer in raid, a masterecrafted detautn poisen and there is nothing to worry about. I raided as almost every class in this game. And when i play a swash i realized a swashes debuffs were important in fights like cheldrak, matron, etc where big nukes /aoe's hit the raid / MT. Yet i still find a way to get my debuffs on the mob as much as i can. Brigands will too. This change will not destroy the brigand class. It will only make people who play brigands be more aware and learn to avoid aoe's or use thier spell avodiance properly. The people who know how to play thier class will shine and those that wanted these easy route will be seen. For those that raided with Brigands in T5 this change will do little to them as they know how to play thier class. I know people will quite playing brigands or the game and cry Foul. But the truth is absolutes are poor game designs. And if the devs wanted to make an aoe that turned everyone into a ghoul model for mayong mistmoore encounter. It wouldnt work on brigands and that caused them to change this ability, Then so be it. It never should of been a buff that had no duration and allowed complete immunity. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It could of been a </DIV> <DIV>10 sec duration 30 sec recast aoe immune ability.<BR>30 sec duration ability that had 3 charges to aborb spell damage over 10% hp<BR>a 10 sec group aoe immunity 5min recast</DIV> <DIV>a large spell shield/spell ward</DIV> <DIV>a 10 sec ability that blocks any physical or spell damage over 10% health</DIV> <DIV>a 3 charge ability that blocks damage over 10% and damages a shield.</DIV> <DIV>a abiltiy that stuns you and avoid group spell damage if they are in 3m</DIV> <DIV>a 12% chance to prevent/reflect or aborb the next spell/damage</DIV> <DIV>tank pet (crushing only)(least damage pet) immune to indirect aoe's(ps it taunts)</DIV> <DIV>instead it was total and absolute immunity unless you are the target</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all of the above are examples of AA's or ancient teachings which looks the most overpowered and the hardest to work on for a raid designer. Which seems the most overpowered to you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zagats]

<DIV>If absolutes are bad, then our stances should have timers on them too.  No way that we should be able to permanently gain attacking abilities, despite the loss of defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's always a give and take situation, same for amazing reflexes.</DIV> <DIV>We gain AoE immunity, at the cost of 10% greater hate (at master 1).</DIV> <DIV>And I agree that for a good brigand, 10% hate is nothing at all to deal with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, from what i've heard about this ability, it's going to be nerfed into non existence basically.  This is what I dont want to happen.</DIV> <DIV>I'm sure they could limit it without it becoming obsolete.  That I wouldnt mind.</DIV> <DIV>(at least either way it'll make brigands more scarce, as they've gained popularity due to AR.)</DIV>

[Akacia]

Gungo not that I wish to argue this information with you but you may find ways to get in some of your debuffs you do realise that pretty well 95% of every single attack ability and some that are not attacks are ALL debuffs of a Brigand? so not only sure can we get in some with a joust here and there but as I stated nearly every single attack comes with a debuff of some kind for a brigand.The current way AR sits is useless and not an I win or class defining ability, tell me what other ability then a Brigand has that defines their class? There isn't any compared to the other classes out there that do have something very special in each way. A good brigand can't control getting hit by damage shields that can't be dispelled unless he doesn't hit the mob all together and stands there for the camera to look pretty.As what Zagats said the problem here is the abilitiy should basically be non existant all together because as it stands it is 110% completely useless. Raziel

[Gungo]

The only issue i see with the new AR is its not lasting the full duration listed. It breaks earlier then it should (which should be feedbacked and not ranted about on the boards). The rest of this has to do with people jumping to conclusions and/or instigating because they do not want it to change.

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Akacia wrote:<BR>Gungo not that I wish to argue this information with you but you may find ways to get in some of your debuffs you do realise that pretty well 95% of every single attack ability and some that are not attacks are ALL debuffs of a Brigand? so not only sure can we get in some with a joust here and there but as I stated nearly every single attack comes with a debuff of some kind for a brigand.<BR><BR>The current way AR sits is useless and not an I win or class defining ability, tell me what other ability then a Brigand has that defines their class? There isn't any compared to the other classes out there that do have something very special in each way. A good brigand can't control getting hit by damage shields that can't be dispelled unless he doesn't hit the mob all together and stands there for the camera to look pretty.<BR><BR>As what Zagats said the problem here is the abilitiy should basically be non existant all together because as it stands it is 110% completely useless. <BR><BR>Raziel<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>psst no class has a class defining ability. Is it the gaurdians tower of stone?, bruisers fake death? conjuror pet? i assure you many classes have similar abilities. None of those abilites provides anywhere near the absolute as AR does. I listed most of the aoe/ damage immunites from AA's and ancients above. Does anything compare remotely to the absolute immunity of AR? Does it? NO. I am not targeting brigands for a nerf, but i clearly see a badly designed ability.</P> <P>a single ability that removes the need for resist and in most cases mitigation gear. that prevents the need to upgrade gear because you may like the procs on previous tiers while other classes need to upgrade. (wpns not included). Its not that i dont liek ar and brigands helping me kil contested easier. Its a flaw in the combat system. an anomoly that didnt exsist until T6. A class that never required this ability all of a sudden is [Removed for Content] becaue he doesnt have this single ancient spell. If that is the case then brigands are far worse off then this 1 ability. </P> <P>But as it stands the reason most guilds want brigands is becasue of the massive mitigation debuffs which is 2-3x as much as anyother class. and casues the raid to do substantialy more dps. </P> <P>You see here is the difference without AR in the future. You will have to make choices. Yes i know its hard. You can't just hit the "i win" button and spam combat arts without any regard. You must decide. I have 10 secs to run in this aoe land my 3 best combat arts and run out. Which ones help this fight the most? dang choices.  Omg which gear should i use. Now that brigands have to have resist gear. Do i drop my T5 damaging procing armour or varsoon vest for T7 armour now? </P> <P>Yes the current way AR works should be fixed. It drops to easily. It should last its full duration regardless of DS's etc. Personally i am not fond of buffs that proc. I rather see it as a 15sec duration 45 recast buff. if timed correctly can allow the brigand to stand in most raids without getting hit. Thus allowing a skilled player who times his buffs correctly the same oppurtunity as the current AR allows. That way it requires skill to play a brigand and yet alllow ample room for designers to make raids that can circumvent this absolute. Through either a faster aoe 30 sec recast, multiple staggered aoe's, or zone wide aoe's. Yes i know it sucks. brigands now have to follow the same rules as the raid designers intended. </P>

[MagicWand]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR>It seems to me that the idea behind the change is to punish the brigand if they get agro, which is probably the kind of downside a powerful buff like AR needs, one that is negotiable depending on how skillfull you are.<BR><BR> They should add a component to AR that makes you immune to damage shields if you're behind the mob you're attacking.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think everyone would love to be immune to Damage shields as well, not just brigands.  <p>Message Edited by MagicWand on <span class=date_text>10-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

[Lyasa]

who's the necro that drug this one outta the grave? anycase notice the thread goes drom 2/16 to 10/24. the concerns in this thread aren't really valid anymore, as it was changed to not break on DS/manastone/etc. instead right now it breaks when taking non-reactive offense damage (ie. doesn't break even on hitting self w/ corsolander's DS, but if i draw agro and the corsolander hits me it breaks) as for the newest version of AR, yeh it'll be mostly useless. o well. i've lived thru all versions of AR, and lived thru before having it too. just another change. makes me wonder if i should get the claymore DW'er and if that'll give me double the chance to avoid AEs. <div></div>

[BedlamX]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p>Yes the number of players playing a class absolutely does matter.... There aren't as many people playing Rangers as the rest of the Scout population put together because Rangers suck, its because Rangers are such a powerful class.... and before anybody jumps on that it doesn't ruffle my feathers at all Rangers shining so brightly.</p><p>It does matter because you simply have a really hard time arguing in any way that Brigand skills are overpowered compared to Swashbucklers, Assassins or Rangers when they are the least played class.</p><p>Consider that you as a Ranger have a a perminant, zero power cost Amazing Reflexes... it's called standing out of range and using a bow... now tell me that AR is the most powerful skill in the game.</p><p>It's unfair for Brigands not to have to joust?.... How about we extend AoE range to encompass bow range.... now imagine how the Ranger community would feel.</p><hr></blockquote>It sounds to me like you may be upset with this change...Perhaps my reply to this is my ever waiting troll finally escaping but what the hell....I will tell you the same thing us Rangers heard LU20...Soe has finally fixed your class and now they are simply working as originally intended..Live with it stop complainingDoesnt feel good hearing that huh.. Now you know what a major nerf feels like.. I wish I could say I had sympathy for your loss of a class defining skill...but we took alot of abuse for our (what some called) "whining" about LU20  I know I am not helping and I am an ars I admit it. I dont care this feels good for me to get this off my chest...Blast away</div><p>Message Edited by BedlamX on <span class=date_text>10-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

[Super Sapper]

<P>Guys You're making me laugh.</P> <P>The change for AR was great, because they removed the chance of automatically stealing aggro from the tank. (which defeted the purpouse of the AR) Annoy target was bad when you're fighting a mob where the positioning is the key to win (due to a massive frontal cone damage or tail swipe), because you stand a chance of whiping a raid just because you procked the annoy target.</P> <P>As far as reflexes dropping for 30 sec. 2 things:</P> <P>1) your own dam fault for not controlling aggro or AoE's too early when you got adds in the encounter.</P> <P>2) get outside of AoE range if you do not have the resists to survive, untill AR is back on</P> <P> </P>

[Super Sapper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Akacia wrote:<BR>I feel the problem here having been a Brigand since day 1 of Everquest 2 and am one of the most needed classes on our raids for debuffing that the folks here who are fluffing off just what this ability does for a Brigand really has no clue as to what debuff abilities a Brigand has.<BR><BR>First off you all do realise a Brigand does not hit worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] with ALL abilities? We do not have a 10K attack, hell not even a 3K attack unless you count Ruse which they nerfed ages ago and have to get hit by the mob while sitting face down in the dirt for it to go off - useless.<BR><BR>So take into account just how low the DPS a brigand does - Tier 2 is pretty close to on par compared to Assassins and the like, the only reason we overall average decent DPS is because we in fact can stay in constantly debuffing a mob on a raid or fight or whatever it is. A note for the Assassin there who said how much jousting affects your DPS, I truly feel sorry for the class when our Assassins still DPS upwards to 3 or 4 times a Brigand and every other class for that matter with jousting, so basically you jousting is nothing in compared to what losing Amazing Reflexes will mean to your jousted DPS from Brigand debuffs and I guess us Brigands can run back in no problem and still hit for 700damage here and there.<BR><BR>It's truly amazing that this abilitiy is even thought of for a nerf, Amazing reflexes for those who do not know can drop and does drop now if a Brigand is hit on a raid if the mob is attacking directly via AOE, a Brigand now does have to manage aggro very much or this is obviously a problem as does the group setup.<BR><BR>Nerf away but expect everyone's raid/group damage to significantly drop and thats an understatement and look for a lot of people to not play their brigands anymore as they continue to hit mobs for under 1k damage with most of their attacks. I wish we had a 20K hit abilitiy.......<BR><BR>Raziel <P>Message Edited by Akacia on <SPAN class=date_text>10-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:07 AM</SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Akacia on <SPAN class=date_text>10-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:10 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not sure how old your your numbers are, but during our raids Brigs clock 850-1100 dps consistanly, Vs 1100-1300 clocked by assassins. So I don't see whats the point to this discussion. You don't need high damage hits to clock high dps on the raid. And Assassins trade off alot of mitigation and no ability to dodge AoE for that extra dps. Also not having to worry about resistances for AoE's allowes you to maximise your stats for DPS instead of trading it off for high resistance

[Akacia]

<P>I don't disagree with your numbers for Brigands, but you can't deny that this change will drop that DPS count significantly is the point. And those numbers for an Assassin who is well equipped and knows his full abilities is pretty low from what ours can do.</P> <P> </P> <P>The problem isn't a matter of it dropping IF we get hit because really that was always the case, I have never ever had a problem taking aggro simply on a pull and or prettymuch any other time on Tarinax or any of the high end game mobs because I know how to keep myself off the aggro top list and one reason I also took the AA line to drop me off those lists, I have no problem with it dropping and a recast timer of 30 seconds if the mob has directly turned on me and hitting me, damage shields, manastones and such make the ability a pure joke and what the argument here has been about</P>

[Super Sapper]

<DIV>There is not much you can do when fighting a mob like Tarinax that memwhipes all the time, so if you're the lucky one to hit it right after it cleares its aggro list. Not sure as to why you would get aggro on the pulls, maybe you and your tank need to work something out in that department. My only point to the post was that AR was actually improved by removing the chance to procking annoy that put you right on the top of the aggro list and turn the raid mob on you reguardless of what you do to deaggro.  As far as your reflexes dropping by 30 sec, if its the price we had to pay for it then so be it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm specked STR/AGI for my AA's and do not have any issues with stealing aggro  while putting up the 850 - 1100 dps </DIV>

[Xerxess]

Wow you know I did feel kinda sorry for you brigands but after hearing all the "Waaa rangers this and rangers that" and the bashing rangers took from LU#20...I really don't ...I say yall should just suck it up and deal with the nerf just like we did. Honestly our guild has run a few raids without brigands, it sux but not impossible....really just get over it...if hate our rangers work then start one but remember one thing rangers buy their DPS every time they raid...you don't!<div></div>

[Kegofbud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR>Wow you know I did feel kinda sorry for you brigands but after hearing all the "Waaa rangers this and rangers that" and the bashing rangers took from LU#20...I really don't ...I say yall should just suck it up and deal with the nerf just like we did. Honestly our guild has run a few raids without brigands, it sux but not impossible....really just get over it...if hate our rangers work then start one but remember one thing rangers buy their DPS every time they raid...you don't!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>All the rangers I know summon their legendary ammo and don't pay for them. That kills that arguement. Your average everyday new roller must pay, but the ones I'm competing with don't. Not a big deal, I just hate the "I pay for my DPS." line I keep seeing.

[Xerxess]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Xerxess wrote:Wow you know I did feel kinda sorry for you brigands but after hearing all the "Waaa rangers this and rangers that" and the bashing rangers took from LU#20...I really don't ...I say yall should just suck it up and deal with the nerf just like we did. Honestly our guild has run a few raids without brigands, it sux but not impossible....really just get over it...if hate our rangers work then start one but remember one thing rangers buy their DPS every time they raid...you don't! <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>All the rangers I know summon their legendary ammo and don't pay for them. That kills that arguement. Your average everyday new roller must pay, but the ones I'm competing with don't. Not a big deal, I just hate the "I pay for my DPS." line I keep seeing.<hr></blockquote>Not all rangers have the fabled bow that does that...but if SoE is willing to give those to us then you won't see that line anymore <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></div>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>I can see the majority of Brigands here being well and truely [Removed for Content] off as most epople would when a major skill gets the nerfbat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, All this doomsaying is achieving nothing and is i beleive making it sound much worse than it actually is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes Brigands lose a major skill, but No Brigands will not suddenly be gimped. They will still do good dps on the majority of fights and still have some of if not the best de-buffs in game, ours in fact was over 2k dps on 2 seperate named encounters in Labs last night and i dont see that changing for the most part. They will also be able to land their Debuffs just the same as before in most cases, Swashie manage it with no AR so im wondering why Brigs seem to think they wont be able to.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a few top end encounters matron/chel then this will really hurt a raid force a lot i have to agree, but SOE isnt going to keep those mobs unkillable. If there is suddenly a problem and no one can kill these mobs then they will be toned down until a raidforce can kill it again with the adjusted skillsets. This isnt even dumbing down these encounters, because if they do make them easier its only easier compared to the old skillsets not the new.</DIV>

[Trabbart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>" I'd also reiterate, what was the percieved need to produce a "balancing change" for the least played Scout?" </P>I know we troubs dont really count anymore, but WE are still and have allways been the least played 50-70 scout class, for good reasons. GO do some checks at eq2census.com<BR><p>Message Edited by Trabbart on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>the issue is as follows</P> <P>with AR our dps is t2, given our dire CA recast timers, we rely on auto attack heavily. Swashies dont, assassins dont , hence they can joust if needed to and achieve t1-t2 dps</P> <P>without AR our dps will be t3-t4, we cant rely on attack attack anymore, our CA's are NOT hardhitting, this is the issue</P> <P>Every brigand i know doesnt want to play easy mode; if you take away our best skill in one swoop, and making it worthless like it currently is on Test at the moment, then give us some dps to compensate</P> <P>Gratz to all the whiners who moaned about brigs being used on matron, sony listened we got battered thanks</P>

[Akacia]

What Thunder said is exactly the issue and why this isn't just a nerf but more less making the class useless. All these nerfs to every class is a lot of the reason why the population is so low in this game and in a few months Vanguard will kick it right Square in the newts.<p>Message Edited by Akacia on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:08 AM</span>

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <P>the issue is as follows</P> <P>with AR our dps is t2, given our dire CA recast timers, we rely on auto attack heavily. Swashies dont, assassins dont , hence they can joust if needed to and achieve t1-t2 dps</P> <P>without AR our dps will be t3-t4, we cant rely on attack attack anymore, our CA's are NOT hardhitting, this is the issue</P> <P>Every brigand i know doesnt want to play easy mode; if you take away our best skill in one swoop, and making it worthless like it currently is on Test at the moment, then give us some dps to compensate</P> <P>Gratz to all the whiners who moaned about brigs being used on matron, sony listened we got battered thanks</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My opinion in advance: Keeping AR the same like it's on live now would have been ok for me personally. I do play a swashy as an alt and I am not looking with envy at AR when playing her. I do like the dodging part :smileyhappy:</P> <P>That being said, our raids always will have one or better two brigands, because the debuffs are needed. And this will be the case with AR in any form. Swashy debuffs simply don't got the same value like brigand debuffs.</P> <P>My guess as to why the change is happening is, that SoE is correcting a design flaw and is not listening to whiners really. 100% immunity is simply bad design, it nullifies AEs for a certain subclass. You see it on mobs as well all the time, whenever a mob is immune to the one or another damage type it's plainly bad design. SoE showed with KoS and FD, that AEs play a very important role - many AEs are very long range, so even ranged classes like mages can't really stay out of range. I guess SoE will stick to that roadmap and perhaps will extend AE importance with EoF even.</P> <P>I do hope, that SoE will not '[Removed for Content]' AR. It's a class defining ability for brigands. From my perspective a 'clicky' skill with certain duration and recast would've been a better choice compared to a proc. You simply can't rely on procs.</P>

[ThunderFunky]

<P>Renpatsu - what you have to realise is, that yes our debuffs will still be effective and needed, BUT theres not guarantee that your guild will keep its 2 brigands or any other guild for that matter. Playing a class, which is a rogue, supposed to be a dps, one and all you can do is debuff and rubbish dps will definitely encourage a LOT of brigands to either betray or reroll</P> <P>As in my previous guilds, Paladins became more and more ineffective, and they rerolled. I know rangers who betrayed following other savage class nerfs.</P> <P>I see you play a conjuor - would you still love to play him him doing t3 -t4 dps?</P> <P>The fact is we like debuffing and we like doing some good dps - now we will only have is the debuffs, so a lot of brigands myself included will no doubt suck it and see and if the class becomes totally no fun to play then regardless of debuffs , i doubt a lot of us will continue playing them.</P> <P>I dont see an issue with one class in the game having AE immunity, if people wanna be that class then go role a brigand, its one of the reasons that some people play one anyway</P> <P>The proc rate on test is almost non existent - swashies are even getting an AA line with group AOE immunity so go figure that one out ?</P> <P>That kinda negates any comments on AOE immunity being an ingame design flaw.</P>

[Renpatsu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThunderFunky wrote:<BR> <P>Renpatsu - what you have to realise is, that yes our debuffs will still be effective and needed, BUT theres not guarantee that your guild will keep its 2 brigands or any other guild for that matter. Playing a class, which is a rogue, supposed to be a dps, one and all you can do is debuff and rubbish dps will definitely encourage a LOT of brigands to either betray or reroll</P> <P>As in my previous guilds, Paladins became more and more ineffective, and they rerolled. I know rangers who betrayed following other savage class nerfs.</P> <P>I see you play a conjuor - would you still love to play him him doing t3 -t4 dps?</P> <P>The fact is we like debuffing and we like doing some good dps - now we will only have is the debuffs, so a lot of brigands myself included will no doubt suck it and see and if the class becomes totally no fun to play then regardless of debuffs , i doubt a lot of us will continue playing them.</P> <P>I dont see an issue with one class in the game having AE immunity, if people wanna be that class then go role a brigand, its one of the reasons that some people play one anyway</P> <P>The proc rate on test is almost non existent - swashies are even getting an AA line with group AOE immunity so go figure that one out ?</P> <P>That kinda negates any comments on AOE immunity being an ingame design flaw.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The brigands on our raids are required to debuff in the first place, DPS is an add on - which doesn't mean it should be 0 damage in the extreme. Without brigands the raid DPS will go down by quite an immense amount, which from my perspective can't be outweighed with a top DPS class.</P> <P>Concerning all of the classes I play, I love to play them for the style primarily - e.g. as stupid as the conjy mage pet running into melee is (from a logical perspective), I just love it, otherwise I would be bored beyond belief. Of course there are certain boundaries which do apply for me, like still being accepted and useful in groups/raids and not just being dragged through.</P> <P>I am pretty sure some brigands will stop playing, at least those who only rolled a brigand to be immune to AEs, those who want to play 'easy mode'. But is that a reason for SoE not to change AR ?</P> <P>There are AE immunities across the board among the classes, which last for a certain amount of hits or a certain duration - the brigand being the only one which is in fact never disabled - the increased hate is simply not an issue. So yes, 100% immunity for 100% of time is probably considered being a design flaw by SoE - which probably only came up because they want to focus on AEs.</P> <P>Personally I am fine with AR in the current state, as I already stated - SoE is not. I certainly hope, that AR will still be useful in the end and that you'll still like your class. If AR is the only reason people play brigands, the class seriously needs a complete revamp.</P>

[Akacia]

<DIV>Since my previous post was ninja'd </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In regards to the last post here you are correct all but one thing as the ability currently stands now, you are not 100% of the time always immune, in fact if you are not doing your job to keep aggro off you and the others around you doing theirs to compliment it, quite simply you can be attacked and hit with the AE, however granted if the brigand using his skills properly and being in correctly set groups across raid it can be avoided ever coming off. One specific instance this is important would be say Talendor when a Brigand can stay in on Talendor and not get hit with his add spell and constantly have the debuffs in on Talendor until after the adds are dead for a quick all out before AE incoming again and since it is only the Tank and a Brigand mainly for the duration of doing Talendor it is very easy to steal aggro in this situation unless again kept under control, anyhow I am sure you all get the point there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So no question that across the board ALL raids will be in a huge disadvantage losing a brigand or two or three constantly in on some encounters who can manage their aggro well, especially on fights like Tarinax where Brigands are pretty crucial, I would agree the same being a Brigand since day 1 that a nerf this far into the game as bad as this one and with others around the corner I myself will do the same likely if it goes live as it is and just stop paying for this game. Not just because of a nerf but in general the constant need to change this game for every class from day 1 is frustrating beyond belief no matter the class with the second combat revamp coming and the list goes on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally wouldn't think that there is a lot of people there who roled a Brigand simply because of this one skill, however not needing to have backup gear for the most part for resists on certain mobs was also an advantage and most people likely sold all their extra gear they replaced as well since if they played their toon right was not needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>I think the biggest frustration with this change is that it will be one of the hardest nerfs to affect everyone in the game not just one specific class</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Akacia on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[XhaleSlow]

<DIV> <DIV>This nerf does it for me, as a 70 Brig with 50 AA's....i have no compunction of leveling another character to 70 so that SoE can [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it all over again when i get there, this nerf goes live, i find another game. SoE will NOT get another [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing DIME from me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> P.S with combat changes on test our debuffs mean quite a bit less which means less utility on raids..specially since we have NOTHING that is able to be casted on another player...everything is self only....dps was dependant on AR, debuffs were dependant on how the mit/save caps worked...this is an overall brigand [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]fest no matter how you non brigand [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in idiots who THINK they know how we work actually do work...if yer not a brig or havent raided as one, shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up and go complain about yer own [Removed for Content] class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dreamtrap</DIV> <DIV>70 [Removed for Content] off Brig Nektulos server</DIV></DIV>

[sobek_eq2]

<P>This change is ill conceived. There are several reasonable options to reduce the impact of AR with making it useless, SOE has chosen to make it useless. They could,</P> <OL> <LI>Change AR to only absorb a portion of the AE damage instead of 100%</LI> <LI>Make AR a normal CA with a recast time > duration</LI></OL> <P>Both of these would reduce the power of AR but still behave in some deterministic fashion. AR Russian Roulette is useless. </P> <P>The way SOE treats its customers is sometimes exasperating and insulting. There's no explanation, no discussion, just please bend over and smile. Oh, and by the way we would like another $40, plus a monthly fee as compensation.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by sobek_eq2 on <span class=date_text>11-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[Akacia]

<P>Well said Xhale and I feel the exact same. It's amazing how a significant change like this that effects the entire game raid wise especially and not one [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] reply from anyone on the SoE end. </P> <P> </P> <P>Ahh well my beta time elsewhere is being enjoyed immensely atm <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Akacia]

<DIV>heh you should see the "other" hidden forum discussions on this stuff if you want to see ticked  off people and just how much this change is REALLY affecting things  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Groma]

I don't play a brigand, never have and probably never will.  I hate nerfs, no matter if they help me currently or not, because people level a character based on its abilities and when those abilities are removed, it makes you feel like you wasted a boatload of time.  With that in mind, i'm 50/50 split on this one.  I believe brigs needed to be toned down a bit, but toned all the way to zero is just too harsh.  They should either make AR a temporary buff(like 10-15sec) usable every 30-45sec, or remove the ability all together and increase their damage output.  Brig debuffs are huge, on raids and ESPECIALLY pvp for those that actually play on pvp servers.  You guys say that brigs are the least played class, but they are in the top 3 on pvp servers because even with low dps, when you have the capability of taking a buffed tank and dropping his mitigation to cloth armor and ripping them to pieces. All in all, i believe they took a necessary change and went WAY overboard.  Brig debuffs will still play a major role in all FP/Exile/PvE server raids, it is only making it harder for brigs to use those debuffs since AEs will likely 1shot a brig now. <div></div>

[DobyMT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NadKS wrote:<BR>I don't play a brigand, never have and probably never will.  I hate nerfs, no matter if they help me currently or not, because people level a character based on its abilities and when those abilities are removed, it makes you feel like you wasted a boatload of time.  With that in mind, i'm 50/50 split on this one.  I believe brigs needed to be toned down a bit, but toned all the way to zero is just too harsh.  They should either make AR a temporary buff(like 10-15sec) usable every 30-45sec, or remove the ability all together and increase their damage output.  Brig debuffs are huge, on raids and ESPECIALLY pvp for those that actually play on pvp servers.  You guys say that brigs are the least played class, but they are in the top 3 on pvp servers because even with low dps, when you have the capability of taking a buffed tank and dropping his mitigation to cloth armor and ripping them to pieces.<BR><BR>All in all, i believe they took a necessary change and went WAY overboard.  Brig debuffs will still play a major role in all FP/Exile/PvE server raids, it is only making it harder for brigs to use those debuffs since AEs will likely 1shot a brig now.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the last time,someone please help me explain to people....this is a PvE game, where PvP was ADDED FOR A LITTLE FUN.</P> <P>Secondly, I hate that brigs are getting AR changed, but realistically, its a solid balancing.  Now you just have to control aggro a TOUCH better than before.  That's all.  Almost all Brigs should have no trouble with that.<BR></P>

[sobek_eq2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DobyMT wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NadKS wrote:<BR>I don't play a brigand, never have and probably never will.  I hate nerfs, no matter if they help me currently or not, because people level a character based on its abilities and when those abilities are removed, it makes you feel like you wasted a boatload of time.  With that in mind, i'm 50/50 split on this one.  I believe brigs needed to be toned down a bit, but toned all the way to zero is just too harsh.  They should either make AR a temporary buff(like 10-15sec) usable every 30-45sec, or remove the ability all together and increase their damage output.  Brig debuffs are huge, on raids and ESPECIALLY pvp for those that actually play on pvp servers.  You guys say that brigs are the least played class, but they are in the top 3 on pvp servers because even with low dps, when you have the capability of taking a buffed tank and dropping his mitigation to cloth armor and ripping them to pieces.<BR><BR>All in all, i believe they took a necessary change and went WAY overboard.  Brig debuffs will still play a major role in all FP/Exile/PvE server raids, it is only making it harder for brigs to use those debuffs since AEs will likely 1shot a brig now.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the last time,someone please help me explain to people....this is a PvE game, where PvP was ADDED FOR A LITTLE FUN.</P> <P>Secondly, I hate that brigs are getting AR changed, but realistically, its a solid balancing.  Now you just have to control aggro a TOUCH better than before.  That's all.  Almost all Brigs should have no trouble with that.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What are you talking about? What does aggro have to do with the AR nerf? I can control my aggro and I PvE exclusively but the AR nerf will still hurt like hell. AR may have needed some balancing but SOE has completely destroyed the abilility. There are many rational ways to balance AR (most of which were suggested in the beta), SOE chose to ignore them and impose an irrational solution without explanation.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Groma]

<div><blockquote><hr>DobyMT wrote: <blockquote> <hr> NadKS wrote:I don't play a brigand, never have and probably never will.  I hate nerfs, no matter if they help me currently or not, because people level a character based on its abilities and when those abilities are removed, it makes you feel like you wasted a boatload of time.  With that in mind, i'm 50/50 split on this one.  I believe brigs needed to be toned down a bit, but toned all the way to zero is just too harsh.  They should either make AR a temporary buff(like 10-15sec) usable every 30-45sec, or remove the ability all together and increase their damage output.  Brig debuffs are huge, on raids and ESPECIALLY pvp for those that actually play on pvp servers.  You guys say that brigs are the least played class, but they are in the top 3 on pvp servers because even with low dps, when you have the capability of taking a buffed tank and dropping his mitigation to cloth armor and ripping them to pieces.All in all, i believe they took a necessary change and went WAY overboard.  Brig debuffs will still play a major role in all FP/Exile/PvE server raids, it is only making it harder for brigs to use those debuffs since AEs will likely 1shot a brig now. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>For the last time,someone please help me explain to people....this is a PvE game, where PvP was ADDED FOR A LITTLE FUN.</p> <p>Secondly, I hate that brigs are getting AR changed, but realistically, its a solid balancing.  Now you just have to control aggro a TOUCH better than before.  That's all.  Almost all Brigs should have no trouble with that.</p><hr></blockquote>Don't quite see what the point of you comment was.  I explained my opinion from both sides, and if you think that just because PvP was added in for a little fun, SOE doesn't consider it when balancing a class.  PvP has a HUGE effect on how SOE changes things now, because it pulled in several thousand customers who want nothing more from this game but PvP.</div>