Aggro Farming and a gun to our heads

[Town Drunk]

<div>Listen,</div><div> </div><div>I could go on for hours typing discomforting posts about my personal opinions on the radical, yes radical, change to the dynamics of how aggro was and how SOE plans to change it.  But Id rather just discuss cause and effect of the EULA change and Farming changes in general.</div><div> </div><div>To my understanding, wrong or right, the aggro was changed from its original to encounter locking, you add the long term effects of how death was handled (which has now changed) and group experience debt (which was now changed) to the complete shabang and it was just another reason NOT TO PLAY everquest 2.  So, they changed all 3 steps of the problem, that is called 'cause' and now we see farmers farming hotspots and marketing the stuff, which is causing feelings of anger, that is called 'effect'.  So the reality of it is, any change to the current system, will have 'cause and effect'. </div><div> </div><div>This whole topic reminds me much of 2 children fighting over a toy, ultimately, one of them be happy, the other will be sad. </div><div> </div><div>Now that I have stated 'cause and effect', lets move on to farming and the possible impact that changing the EULA against farming might have.</div><div> </div><div>A farmer, yes that dirty fellow who chooses to spend his time in the field with his tools trying to achieve produce to sell on the market to feed his starving babies and perhaps just to get rich, everyone is a farmer, yes, true. </div><div> </div><div>Quest Doers - go to a spot to kill a creature over and over again to achieve a certain item drop for a quest, like the shadowed man book, that to this day Ive personally killed over 5000 with no luck (Quest in Nektulous Forest) or perhaps your trustee Legend and Lore books to get body parts. </div><div> </div><div>Your a farmer...</div><div> </div><div>Crafters - skipping thru the zones harvesting goods to in turn craft into objects, (You repeatedly just harvested Iron materials, Velium Materials, Pickles, etc)</div><div> </div><div>Your a farmer...</div><div> </div><div>Rare Resource Harvesters - running thru the greyed out zone alone harvesting materials you dont really need and delete just for the sake of rare materials to market for mad cash.</div><div> </div><div>farmer...</div><div> </div><div>Raiders - Gather together in hope of what?  Experience.. killing stuff over and over and over again doing what?</div><div> </div><div>Farming Experience.  Yes farmer too.</div><div> </div><div>Basically we are all farmers.. I guess that means that we should all be banned for it, shame on us for actually playing a game governed by farming.</div><div> </div><div>Lets just take a look at the problem, and then come up with an actual solution, rather then playing this bumper car game.  Where they will change the ultimate dynamics of the game and the market and when folks start leaving their clientel, they will be changing it right back to where we currently are at.  And then in a year we will be back to arguing about farmers again.</div><div> </div><div>The Problem -</div><div> </div><div>Why do people really farm Master 1s and why are people upset about them farming Master 1s, fabled, legendary items drops.</div><div> </div><div>Might it be because crafting items suck in comparison, therefore everyone wants to achieve greatness so they all are really upset that they cant have the 'Best Character in the game'.</div><div> </div><div>Solution-</div><div> </div><div>Maybe make crafted Items better then dropped items, but wait, then that would actually make the hard working crafters actually happy that their 2 hour creation actually are worth something. (Of course the new crafter changes will make crafters jobs easier)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Basically stop asking for rain, because it will flood.... Stop Crying about a few rotten eggs, that will ultimately give us the bad smell in our nose.  Calm yourselves a bit, and actually think about what your asking before you continue.  And you will as I have seen, see that what we are wanting, really isnt in our best interests.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div> </div><div>Have another Ale at my expense</div><div> </div><div>Town Drunk</div>

[Baelas]

While I don't exactly dispute your post, you should really realise that there are quite a few players out there that do not kill monsters or do quests for experience or loot, but simply for the fun of it.<div></div>

[Dweedleb]

<div></div><p>Well then they are FUN FARMERS!!  :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> </p><p>It is unavoidable!  Everyone is a farmer!  The newbie equipment should be overalls and a straw hat and your epic mount will be a tractor!!</p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I agree, all these people that constantly whine about farming are just ignorant, inconsiderate crybabies that want the whole game to be drastically changed just so they will see less people camping mobs that they want for themselves.  Even if they are really just screwing themselves over in the end.  That is all there is to it.  They are just as greedy and selfish if not moreso as anyone they label as a "farmer" as well as a lot less intelligent.  It's not our fault if they are not smart enough to figure out the best ways to get money and the best items in the game.  So all they really want is for the game to be changed to make it easier for less intelligent people to play it and get what they want without having any real competition while screwing over everyone else that actually has a brain.Check this out, last night I was playing a new alt with one of my good friends in the Commonlands and we got a quest to kill ghost orcs for some random updates.  Well there is only one spot in the whole zone with ghost orcs that are around our level, the ones that spawn right outside the gate to the Graveyard.  So we went there and started killing them and since the updates were random we had to kill lots and lots of them to get all the updates.  We had to get a total of 25 random updates so we probably had to kill at least 100 of the mobs to get them all.  While we were killing the mobs another guy came along who I guess had the same quest and he kept pulling our mobs.  Did we complain about it?  No we did not.  We just kept trying to get as many as we could.  Then all of a sudden he sends me a tell saying that he is going to report me with screenshots for kill stealing.  I so wanted to tell him off really good but all I could do was just laugh my butt off at him.  I did tell him that SOE would do the same thing.  Anyways the point of this story is to show just how ignorant some people in this game really are.  They actually think that "kill stealing" is a crime that you can actually get punished for, for one thing, and as I see it he was the one stealing our mobs, not the other way around.  And the funniest part about it was that he didn't even ask if he could group with us to share the mobs, he just sends me a tell out of the blue saying that he is going to report me for killing some mobs that he wanted for himself.  I mean, it's not like they were even named mobs either, just some lowbie trash mobs that we needed for some lame quest with a crappy reward.  Heck, even if you are camping a named mob for an important quest update and spend hours to spawn it and someone comes along and blatantly steals it from you when it does finally pop there is nothing that SOE will do about it.  Because according to them there are no "camping rights" in the game.  It's all just a big FFA.  It sucks sometimes but you know what...that's life.  People just need to quit trying to get the devs to hold their hands throughout the game and quit whining about the ways that other people choose to play the game even when it's not really even hurting them at all.  It's really getting quite ridiculous.It's true that everyone in this game is a farmer whether they want to admit it or not.  This whole game is built on farming.  It cannot be avoided.  Some people take farming more seriously than others do and put more time and effort into it.  Some people, the ones who are smart, figure out the best ways (ie the fasted and easiest) to get what they want in the game by farming.  Obviously the ones who are not quite as resourceful and are not willing to farm as much are going to feel cheated because all the best farmers get all the best stuff in the game.  But that's just the way it is in actuality they have no one else to blame for their own shortcomings but themselves.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:14 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div><font color="#ff0000">"They are just as greedy and selfish if not moreso as anyone they label as a "farmer" as well as a lot less intelligent.  It's not our fault if they are not smart enough to figure out the best ways to get money and the best items in the game.  So all they really want is for the game to be changed to make it easier for less intelligent people to play it and get what they want without having any real competition while screwing over everyone else that actually has a brain."</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>Real classy generalization Infernous.  So are you saying that someone how has oddles of plat in the bank and all the best equipment because they know how to farm have a high IQ?  Give me a frickin' break. </div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Town Drunk wrote:<div>Solution-</div><div> </div><div>Maybe make crafted Items better then dropped items, but wait, then that would actually make the hard working crafters actually happy that their 2 hour creation actually are worth something. (Of course the new crafter changes will make crafters jobs easier)</div><hr></blockquote>There isn't a single item in the game that takes two hours, save possibly Wyrmsteel, since you have to go into Sol Eye.Your idea is horrible. Why should an easy to acquire crafted item be better then mob drops that are actually hard to get if you do them at the proper level?  By the time you can farm nameds easily, the loot is crap.</span></div>

[supermouse]

<div>What gets me about the farmers is when they ruin the zone for others who are there to actully experiance it and the content there in.  I went to varsoons for the frist time and was unable to do much because of framers in there being jerks.   I wasn't after loot or named mobs but there to have fun that is what gets me about these farmers that and they camp mobs they know people need for quests.  What gives them the right to sit and kill it endlessly when they simply want its loot to sell on teh broker for high prices when another needs it to advance or complete a quest</div>

[Magu]

And what gives you the right to kill it instead?First one there has every right to kill it, whether for loot or quest.Just because you're questing doesn't give you some god-given right to kill it first.<div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Floria,I thought you said you were done arguing with me about this on the other farming thread.  Now you come here just to argue with me some more?  LOLOk you asked for it.<i>"So are you saying that someone how has oddles of plat in the bank and all the best equipment because they know how to farm have a high IQ?"</i>Yeah, either that or they baught plat online from people who actually farmed it for RL money.  You said you don't farm and you have no desire to farm at all.  You also admitted that you are poor.  Get a clue.  If you really think there is any other way to get rich in this game then do tell us all this secret so that we can all stop farming.  There is crafting but then you have to farm nodes for that so that doesn't count.Oh wait you don't want anyone getting rich at all, that's the whole problem.  You want everyone to be stuck being poor all their lives just like you.<i>"What gives them the right to sit and kill it endlessly when they simply want its loot to sell on teh broker for high prices when another needs it to advance or complete a quest"</i>What makes your desire for a quest update any more important than someone else's desire for a certain piece of loot?  And how do you determine what a person's reasons are for camping a mob?  Oh yeah...you don't, you just always assume that anyone you see camping a mob that you want is farming it for loot just so you can't get your quest update.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:Floria,I thought you said you were done arguing with me about this on the other farming thread.  Now you come here just to argue with me some more?  LOLOk you asked for it.<i>"So are you saying that someone how has oddles of plat in the bank and all the best equipment because they know how to farm have a high IQ?"</i>Yeah, either that or they baught plat online from people who actually farmed it for RL money.  You said you don't farm and you have no desire to farm at all.  You also admitted that you are poor.  Get a clue.  If you really think there is any other way to get rich in this game and have nice stuff then please do tell us all this secret so that we can all stop farming.  There is crafting but then you have to farm nodes for that so that doesn't count.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I'm calling you out for making combative statements such was what you wrote below.  Why are you resorting to calling people names who have a different philosophy than you?   I love it when people start getting very personal and then start attacking.  </p><p><font color="#ff0000">" It's not our fault if they are not smart enough to figure out the best ways to get money and the best items in the game.  So all they really want is for the game to be changed to make it easier for less intelligent people to play it and get what they want without having any real competition while screwing over everyone else that actually has a brain."   </font></p><p>And prior to to master loot drops increasing in the dungeons, people were getting rich in game all the time.   It just takes persistent playing, luck and skill,  Heck, I knew some crafters who were filthy rich harvesting nodes (farming), getting rares, and just making things.  There are many ways of making money in this game.  And even though I don't farm master chests in dungeons, I'm pretty well off. </p><p>I know that I shouldn't respond to your bait but you rub me the wrong way Infernus.  Too bad that you have resorted to name calling and insults.  We were having a fairly decent discussion before. </p>

[infernus006]

<i>"And prior to to master loot drops increasing in the dungeons, people were getting rich in game all the time.   It just takes persistent playing, luck and skill"</i>Yes and even more farming.<i>"I know that I shouldn't respond to your bait but you rub me the wrong way Infernus.  Too bad that you have resorted to name calling and insults."</i>You are the one that's taking things way too perosnally here.  I never personally called you any names.  I just really honestly feel that the people who come here just to whine about farming and want the game to be nerfed to try and make it more difficult are really ignorant and it makes me mad.<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Sigh, you know Infernus, you and I probably agree on 99% of things in the game except this one specific scenario of farming. I think that after a big change such as the agro change, we are all passionate right now.  I really hope that you don't think I asked or even lobbied for this nerf.  I have been simply weighing in on this issue.  I hope that SOE tweaks things with the agro patch since it is upsetting so many people.  I will refrain myself from responding again.  My cable has been a bit funky lately so haven't been playing as much as I could.</p><p>Changing the subject, I looked you up and you are quite active on the zerker boards.  I rolled up a new zerker and really like the character.  I'm currently duoing with hubby who is a warden and it seems to be working out well.  You have giving some great advice on various topics and I may post some questions in the future.  Seems you are really happy with the class?  I"m having a blast. </p><p>Peace? </p>

[Outkast1980]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><p>Sigh, you know Infernus, you and I probably agree on 99% of things in the game except this one specific scenario of farming. I think that after a big change such as the agro change, we are all passionate right now.  I really hope that you don't think I asked or even lobbied for this nerf.  I have been simply weighing in on this issue.  I hope that SOE tweaks things with the agro patch since it is upsetting so many people.  I will refrain myself from responding again.  My cable has been a bit funky lately so haven't been playing as much as I could.</p><p>Changing the subject, I looked you up and you are quite active on the zerker boards.  I rolled up a new zerker and really like the character.  I'm currently duoing with hubby who is a warden and it seems to be working out well.  You have giving some great advice on various topics and I may post some questions in the future.  Seems you are really happy with the class?  I"m having a blast. </p><p>Peace? </p><hr></blockquote>Do a little dance, make a little love (fix the aggro changes lol) get down tonight..

[infernus006]

<div></div>Floria,Yeah ok if you want to talk about Zerker stuff then feel free to go over to the Zerker boards and I will be happy to answer any questions you have about the class there.  But I don't want to change the subject of this thread and get off topic here because I really do feel that this is an important topic.Anyways, it's not that I'm even all that upset about the change they made.  Like I told you on the other thread, it doesn't even really make that much of a difference to me, I can still farm or whatever with my lowbie friends the same way that I have been doing since they allowed unlocked encounters.  My whole argument is just about the fact that people come to these boards just to whine about farming and want changes made to the game to make it more difficult even when the changes will effect everyone who plays the game whether they actually do any real farming or not.  Because like I said, the changes they made to the aggro system that were made specifically to combat farming effects people that are 5 levels apart just as much as it effects people who are 30 levels apart and it doesn't matter if they are really farming or not, it still effects them just the same as any 20/60 farming duo.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:39 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><p>^^^</p><p>Well since my cable is snafu, I may do just that.  Have a few beers and get funky.  And afterwards dream of lollipops and master chests....:smileywink:  Edit: This remark was to Outkast, not you Infernus.</p><p>Will get over to the zerker boards and read some more,  wasn't intending on posting my questions here.  Happy gaming.</p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:39 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

^ Haha well you don't have to dream about master chests if you are a farmer right?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>^^</p><p>Hehe, I may start a little farming now with all these threads.  You have been a bad influence on me.:smileywink:   I've had great luck with rares though but it would be nice to have more masters in my arsenal.</p><p>Oh well, signing off.  Cable seems to be back up.  And there is Freeport to betray this evening with our newbies.</p>

[Chefren]

This kind of threads are plane and simple flamefarming..<div></div>

[Beghard]

Infer is an idiot. Maby if he actualy spent time playing the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game intsead of whining about what he wants or thinks everyone whos read throught the hole thing wouldnt have waisted their time.Im a wizard and went to the bottom of SolEye when they updated it and killed a named at the very bottom and got a master chest even thought i also killed him preLU19 when i was still 50 and didnt even have any masters. Then i killed Iceberg and the BroodMatriarch and soloed the Sanctoruim and mined a rare and killed a zerker in a dule bet for 5pp and and went invis and ganked mobs from lvl 20 players just for fun and soloed Buringpaws or w/e that heroic is in PoF. All those things are true, although i havent done them all on the same day in a long time. But yeah i have soloed every named in PoF one time there were 3 of the same named raptors in PoF up and i soloed them all and one droped a cobalt. I also soloed the 3rd part of the carpet quest because im a pownzering wizzy and i can kill anyhting i want to. i DID kill that named in SolEye and got the master, i HAVE soloed fora master off of iceberg preLU19 and all that other jazz. And geuss what, i still hate that stupid jerk face forine botters who sell plat. Eat my shorts Infer. I pwnzed you just now just like i did that other stupid guy in the city who thinks he knows how to use IC. IF your mom was a harpy i would solo her to.<div></div>

[sarsippi]

<div></div><div>                  ________________________________ ___________________________                 Beghar d said:                 blah blah blah</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>                __________________________________ __________________________</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Nevermind, I really have no idea what he said... Was that in english?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>And now on to other things... did a new post on this need to be started? It was just a day  ago there was like a 4 pager of the same topic going....EDIT: Its actually at 6 pages now, and like 5 posts below this one....</div><p>Message Edited by sarsippius on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:40 AM</span></p>

[Town Drunk]

<div>Another topic didnt have to be started Sar,</div><div> </div><div>However, the reasoning I did it was because Scanning thru a bunch of flames and rants always makes me vomit at the end of it all.  Seriously, if someone had something important to say, the point would be lost in context as most would just bypass it to the end and then make their actual post.  So, in that regard then yes, this topic does deserve more attention.</div><div> </div><div>All I am stating in the above is that there is always something effected at the result of change, but are we really ready to try and handle such a change.  Honestly, farmers make the economy, and long after farmers are long gone, which they will never be, will that effect the prices on the market?  Absolutely, Masters 1s prices will get more costly, seeing as there arent a constant flow of them of above said farmers.  Will biggies want to help smallies as often if they have to group, mentor down and then take much time away from their playtime, chances are that there will be less sightings of such, unless someones bored.  Does this fix the crafted loot vs dropped loot issues, not really... Crafted Loot in my opinion is still swept under the carpet, considering there are no real class specific crafted armor, adept 3s? what a joke when I can buy the actual master 1 for about the same price (And trust me, this wont change the price of adept 3s, folks will just start buying more adept 1s - dropped item, because I highly doubt that Adept 3s will drop in price).  Will what SOE is trying to accomplish fix any farming problems, no it will not, let me tell you why it will fail.... If you ban someone who farms, they will just go somewhere else, and eventually they will be changing it back due to loss of clientel, all because a bunch of folks that want things always in 'Their' favor made a huge deal over it.  And dont think Im defending the farmers that have caused all the problems, because Im not.  If SOE really wanted a fix, why not just make Ruins of Varsoon and Runnyeye simply an instance, Solves the Problem, with a timer.</div><div> </div><div>End of story</div><div> </div><div>Love,</div><div> </div><div>Town Drunk</div>

[Magu]

That's not a fix either.Until they did the 50% loot thing I farmed Varsoon and another instance daily with some friends, as we wanted some of the loot there.Instances and lockouts don't stop farming at all.<div></div>

[Sir Blig]

<div>Me thinks a lot of people are getting what some people are on about wrong yup wrong, let's try a few examples from RL,</div><div> </div><div>1. you're a big husky body builder and you try to farm all the competitions out there, one day you find this cool stuff called steroids that builds you up makes you stronger more defined yada yada now you know it is not ethical or legit but hey. Then one they change the rules or the rules were there and they test you, oops there goes your farming career out the window with a lifetime ban for cheating….</div><div> </div><div>2. Wo now lets go to farm farmers he grows his crops and raises his flocks, then one day he finds out that with this chemical feed and with that bio engineer seed he can make 50% more out of the livestock and 30% out of the crops, same deal either it was legal or a few years down the line they find both cause some nasty side effects so they outlaw it, well he can give up his extra income, if he chooses to do it on the sly when they catch him he will be tossed in jail and</div><div>I wont mention what kind of farming happens there.</div><div> </div><div>Lots more examples are there</div><div> </div><div>If you run around collecting loot here and there and everywhere and try to get a specific drop for a few hours chances are very few will mind.</div><div> </div><div>What a lot of people are annoyed about is when say a 60 comes into a 30's zone with his little buddy and levels just the names over and over and over and over again………</div><div> </div><div>Or one person stands in front of one pop point for and kills it every time is pops over and over …….. of (if a bot) days on end</div><div> </div><div>So what does everyone do ridicule the people that are sick and tied of going into a zone and always seeing the same people doing the same stuff over and over and over……..</div><div> </div><div>So up to a point farming is 100% acceptable but if it goes beyond it become something else, Selfish, Inconsiderate …….well maybe and maybe not, is all not fair in love and war, But hey SOE slowly works on trying to level the playing field trying to find system to keep more customers happy trying to remove places were players are simply taking the mic when things are change to make some actions lives easier.</div><div> </div><div>Hmmm forgot greed.</div><div> </div><div>Moaning about moaners just takes you up or down to there level, While if you try to approach problems constructively maybe it would help SOE find fair accurate systems that would make sense to more people and more accurately depict what would happen,</div><div> </div><div>i.e. a 60 come running into a 30 zone of goblins, goblin cringes at the sight of him, three thoughts pop into his small mind do I run away of can we take him, or maby if if i stay realy still he wont see me</div><div> </div><div>a. realy still. yippy he went right by i can can breath again</div><div>b. Take him: stands realy still, then sees the prey charging him, thinks are there enough of us around to take him: if there are a battle cry goes up and the whole zone comes running. And they summon in the reserves</div><div>c. we are too few and would lose: runs away, the whole zone scatters and whenever they see you they run off as per the fear affect. </div><div> </div><div>(Welcome to fortune cookie 83456936)</div>

[Ultharion]

Town Drunk, how can you even type, buried in all those strawmen like that?<div></div>

[retro_guy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Baelas wrote:While I don't exactly dispute your post, you should really realise that there are quite a few players out there that do not kill monsters or do quests for experience or loot, but simply for the fun of it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you enjoy torturing small animals too? LOL</span></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div>I'm not even going to waste any of my time responding to any of Beghard's personal attacks against me because nothing in his post made any sense at all including that.<i>"</i><span><i>there are quite a few players out there that do not kill monsters or do quests for experience or loot, but simply for the fun of it."</i>That's good then I guess those players won't mind staying out of the dungeons and just stick to killing the trash mobs outside that don't drop any good loot then.  Then they won't have any reason to complain about farmers because there is never a short supply of random trash mobs to kill "simply for the fun of it".  That leaves more names for me and my friends who actually care about getting nice loot.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:04 PM</span></p>

[Lydiae]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span>Your idea is horrible. Why should an easy to acquire crafted item be better then mob drops that are actually hard to get if you do them at the proper level?  By the time you can farm nameds easily, the loot is crap.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Last time I looked rare crafted raws (much less comlete items) cost a LOT of money.   You must also take into account the time and effort it took a crafter to get to the level required to make the items.  Crafted rare items are not "easy to aquire" by any stretch of the imagination.</p><p>Oh, except maybe for big raiding guilds who get more rare drops than they know what to do with and have their guild-slave crafters make the good stuff for everyone.</p><p>Anyone who likes this change has based their opinion soley on the misguided notion that raid drops MUST be better than anything else.  Pity their fragile egos.</p>

[Sritt]

<div>As has been pointed out there are farmers then there are FARMERS. The difference is in the intent not the behavior. If you kill more than one mob of a certain type, pick up more than one chest in a zone, do more than one quest a level, etc. you can be called a farmer. The farmers that are causing the problem are those that are 'harvesting' a spot to extinction. If this was the real world and they worked with crops they'd deplete the soil and the crops would stop growing (intelligent farmers use crop rotation to keep the soil from becoming depleted and infertile). In the game the mechanics are that you outlevel an area/mob and it becomes 'infertile' (trivial loot code). Well the farmers in question are the ones who find a way around it. Also they do  more than 'farm', they also 'camp' and 'kill-steal'. More than once I've tried to get a rare quest mob just to have someone use a faster attack to tag it so I don't get credit though I did more damage so got the aggro and had to fight it, the changes to loot drop should cut down on that happening though since I'd  be the one doing the most damage in such cases.</div><div> </div><div>Everyone seems to forget also that the aggro changes were meant to increase game difficutly, not stop the farmers. Gallenite (think that's how he spells it) even said the aggro changes would have only a minimal impact on farmers. The goal of the changes were to increase game difficulty, something many posters have been screaming for. Of course now they're screaming its 'unfair' and it makes it harder for them to get to the mob they want. Guess they'll never be happy, of course this change is an actual game difficulty increase, not the typical timesink 'difficulty' increase. Most of the changes that have 'made the game easier' have just been changes to reduce the amount of timesinks and tediousness, things that don't really alter game difficulty but just the difficulty of casual players to reach higher levels due to time contstraints. For the most part going back to get ones soul shards wasn't a challenge or require any extra skills, just ate up time. The difficulty in the existing crafting system is in managing layers of recipes, something a spreadsheet or database can easily streamline (and with the changed system its been handled by the game itself). Reducing the time to create a final, usable product doesn't really make the game easier in a difficulty sense, just easier to get items that aren't the top of the food chain equipment-wise (though for solo'ers crafted items usually comprise most of their equipment as most solo-able mobs and quests don't give good item rewards).</div><div> </div><div>Farming isn't 'evil' in and of itself, its when the farming behavior goes past the point of game 'need' and into 'money farming', involving the addition of camping. Yeah I'll harvest nodes for rares, but I do it only as I pass by them doing other things, I only go out seeking specific nodes when needed for a quest or if I happen to be crafting something. Yes I'll wait around at a spawn point for certain mobs, but only to get the quest update I need then I move on to something else. The activities I've done can be classified as farming but my intent and the finer details of my actions are what make the difference. Its not farming in small doses that's the problem, its farming as a playstyle that is the problem. Most of the farmers that people don't like don't play the game, they don't move on to other areas, they only equip their chars with the stuff they need to take out their 'harvest', and they only give to the server community as a by-product of making money (If they can make more money without selling their loot on the brokers they'll do it).</div>

[Edyil]

<div></div><p>Farming (whether raiding, to gain cash, to gain exp, to gain items etc) is directly proportionate to lack of game content and lack of immersion.</p><p>The worse a game is (immersion and content wise) the more they add raid zones and farming content. </p><p> </p><p>Any game worth its salt would have the player totally into whats happening around them, totally tuned into why they were killing something and where they needed to go next.  Farming is just the easy fix for lack of content.</p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<div></div><p>Farming (whether raiding, to gain cash, to gain exp, to gain items etc) is directly proportionate to lack of game content and lack of immersion.</p><p>The worse a game is (immersion and content wise) the more they add raid zones and farming content. </p><p> </p><p>Any game worth its salt would have the player totally into whats happening around them, totally tuned into why they were killing something and where they needed to go next.  Farming is just the easy fix for lack of content.</p><hr></blockquote><p>There's a ton of content in EQ2, doesn't mean people won't farm. You can't force people to do the content in an MMO unless you make it so the only way to get anything (exp, loot, abilities) is by doing the content. Well the mobs in the world are content too and if they didn't give loot or exp people wouldn't play. I know many who are at 60 who have less than 100 quests, my main is 57 and has almost 1,200 quests done and I didn't even disable combat xp to try to get drops in zones. Most of my characters have 200 quests done before they venture out into Antonica/Commonlands. The content is there  but it is optional. MMOs that force a certain type of content (combat, quests, crafting, socializing) end up with a niche market and usually fold up in a short time due to lack of playerbase (though combat-only MMOs tend to do better but those feel more like an overblown FPS to me than an MMO as they lack any RP).</p><p>Some aren't aware the content is there  becuase they get twinked  by a friend or guildie (had someone in my old guild that didn't know how to get between most of the overland zones because they were powerlevelled by the guild leader so never got to explore and got lost when it came time to do the prismatics and higher end HQs that involved visiting many different zones). Farming is a byproduct of non-linear, open-ended gaming systems which is what MMOs are. You see farming less in single-player RPGs because there's no status in farming FF3, nobody cares that you capped your gil 20 times over. Farming is proprotional to the size of the MMO and the flexibility of its system, a rigid system will see less farming as ability to play will be restricted by the system leaving no room for farming (unless that is the system).</p>

[Edyil]

<div></div>PS Quests aren't content, contrary to Srithh's opinion.  Neither are Mobs (short for Mobiles which are brainless NPCs that have some wander script).

[Mrhan]

<div>dont really want to bother replying to all of those lame excuses for farming in this thread, the thing me and 99% of every other non-intelligent whiner(according to inf) hates is lvl 60 farming named in lvl 30 dungeons, and yes its sucks and yes you are an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you do it...</div><div>So please force locked named encounters again....</div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div>As has been pointed out there are farmers then there are FARMERS. The difference is in the intent not the behavior. If you kill more than one mob of a certain type, pick up more than one chest in a zone, do more than one quest a level, etc. you can be called a farmer. The farmers that are causing the problem are those that are 'harvesting' a spot to extinction. If this was the real world and they worked with crops they'd deplete the soil and the crops would stop growing (intelligent farmers use crop rotation to keep the soil from becoming depleted and infertile). In the game the mechanics are that you outlevel an area/mob and it becomes 'infertile' (trivial loot code). Well the farmers in question are the ones who find a way around it. Also they do  more than 'farm', they also 'camp' and 'kill-steal'. More than once I've tried to get a rare quest mob just to have someone use a faster attack to tag it so I don't get credit though I did more damage so got the aggro and had to fight it, the changes to loot drop should cut down on that happening though since I'd  be the one doing the most damage in such cases.</div><div> </div><div>Everyone seems to forget also that the aggro changes were meant to increase game difficutly, not stop the farmers. Gallenite (think that's how he spells it) even said the aggro changes would have only a minimal impact on farmers. The goal of the changes were to increase game difficulty, something many posters have been screaming for. Of course now they're screaming its 'unfair' and it makes it harder for them to get to the mob they want. Guess they'll never be happy, of course this change is an actual game difficulty increase, not the typical timesink 'difficulty' increase. Most of the changes that have 'made the game easier' have just been changes to reduce the amount of timesinks and tediousness, things that don't really alter game difficulty but just the difficulty of casual players to reach higher levels due to time contstraints. For the most part going back to get ones soul shards wasn't a challenge or require any extra skills, just ate up time. The difficulty in the existing crafting system is in managing layers of recipes, something a spreadsheet or database can easily streamline (and with the changed system its been handled by the game itself). Reducing the time to create a final, usable product doesn't really make the game easier in a difficulty sense, just easier to get items that aren't the top of the food chain equipment-wise (though for solo'ers crafted items usually comprise most of their equipment as most solo-able mobs and quests don't give good item rewards).</div><div> </div><div>Farming isn't 'evil' in and of itself, its when the farming behavior goes past the point of game 'need' and into 'money farming', involving the addition of camping. Yeah I'll harvest nodes for rares, but I do it only as I pass by them doing other things, I only go out seeking specific nodes when needed for a quest or if I happen to be crafting something. Yes I'll wait around at a spawn point for certain mobs, but only to get the quest update I need then I move on to something else. The activities I've done can be classified as farming but my intent and the finer details of my actions are what make the difference. Its not farming in small doses that's the problem, its farming as a playstyle that is the problem. Most of the farmers that people don't like don't play the game, they don't move on to other areas, they only equip their chars with the stuff they need to take out their 'harvest', and they only give to the server community as a by-product of making money (If they can make more money without selling their loot on the brokers they'll do it).</div><hr></blockquote><p>Pretty much sums up my feeling.  There's farming and there is FARMING.  My particular problem has always been the high/low level duos camping, kill stealing, and other nefarious deeds :smileywink:.  That is the particular type of farming I don't care for.  Anyway, tried to explain my point on another  thread but gave up in frustration.  You said it much more eloquently than I could. </p><p>You bring up an excellent point about the agro changes making the game more difficult.  People have been screaming all along to make the game more "challenging."  Now with the agro changes, it certainly does make the game more challenging.  But now people are upset with the change.  I guess you can't please everyone.  High level guildies just helped my hubby and I complete a very tough quest.  Yes, the agro changes made it a tad bit more difficult but it wasn't insurmountable.   Did I get extremely upset with SOE about the agro changes?  Nope.  It wasn't that big of a deal. </p><p>Anyway, nicely said.</p>

[Erladd]

<div></div><div></div><p>i like to fish</p><p> </p><p>} < ) ) ) ; ></p><p>Message Edited by Erladdin on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:20 AM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<div></div>PS Quests aren't content, contrary to Srithh's opinion.  Neither are Mobs (short for Mobiles which are brainless NPCs that have some wander script).<hr></blockquote><p>If quests and mobs don't count as content than what is content? Just the zones and loot? WIth a game called Everquest I'd think that quests count as content. Especially when a lot of the game lore is tied up in the quests, either in the quest dialogs or quest rewards. Mobs are content as well, what kind of fantasy adventure game would you have if there was nothing to fight? Mobs were fairly mindles in the MUD days the term comes from but in a good MMO they arne't quite so brainless. Most of the critters you fight in EQ2 have more brains than the non-hostile NPCs and some of the players in the game. Just feel lucky the mobs can't force 'kite' you around like you can them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>EQ2 has lots of content, just not all of it will appeal to all players, I know questers who don't bother reading the dialog because they don't care about the game lore, just completing another quest for their total or to get a specific reward, a few even grind on them like many grind on mobs for exp.</p>

[Zis]

<div></div><p>You know those 'fake' master chests in Hidden Cache?  Pure torture <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But yeah, anyway.    I 'grew up' in this game farming.  I duo with my boyfriend, we both are very active players, and we got the game together as noobs and played together and learned.  99% of me getting level 60 was done soloing or duoing or questing or farming.  To this day, I have never been in an "xp group" with my bruiser - and managed to hit 60 in a little under 2 months just wandering around, doing my thing, farming green heroics, etc.    Why do we farm?  Well, look at the economy.  If people didn't pay 1p for level 30 master books then....level 30 players might actually be able to go to the dungeons that could drop them potential good gear/spells.    Once I discovered Runnyeye, wow.  I mean, I made a fortune in that place.  I think I dinged like level 51 in there, while mentored to a guildmate.   You can harvest, craft, or outright farm nameds for money, and for myself I chose the 3rd route as being the preferred one ( finding the other 2 more annoying.)  Now, if someone comes along and asks if they can have the mob for a quest, I'll invite them for the kill or let them have it - after all, I'll still be here when it pops again.  I know that most of the irritation comes from the ebay-plat farming type who wont even acknowledge a group who is there to complete a quest and just keep taking the mobs.    Which is a whole different can o' worms - bots, farming of that nature, etc. </p><p>But I have to agree with Inf - what makes your quest more important than my desire for loot, or vice versa?  If people were just nicer to each other and cooperated/shared this would be easier, but alas, greed.   So what is to be done?   No matter how the game is changed, with aggro rules, 'tagging' rules, whatever -- people WILL find a way to farm.  Because thats what we do.  Thats what you do in every single mmo.    The difference is why you're doing it and how you're doing it.  ( For money? loot? quests? boredom?  solo?  in a group?  in a raid? etc.)   There is no solution for this problem.   While some people are nice and accomodating, there will always be those 'other people'.  People who  will always KS, people who will always yoink someone's mob as they are preparing to pull it, people  who will always ignore your please for an invite for a quest update.    And there's absolutely nothing you can do about them other than /flame them on the boards or in ooc if it makes you feel better.</p><p> </p><p>Be thankful, in Eq2 you can 'tag' a mob.  In some other games, no matter who hits first who ever does the most damage to it gets the loot.  You think griefing is bad here?  This isn't so bad.</p><p> </p>

[Junkisfunk]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:And what gives you the right to kill it instead?First one there has every right to kill it, whether for loot or quest.Just because you're questing doesn't give you some god-given right to kill it first.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think that person is asking for the right I think that person is asking that people *SHARE*. I am sure that person was there for the quest update and was pushed out because of the attitude of the farmer. Sharing is a concept that is missed on a lot of people, especial of todays kids.</p><p>Junk</p>

[Ekuthh]

<div></div>/agrees with OP