Wouldn't a neutral class running the betrayal quest keep their original class?

[Nerwen]

I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div>

[Gaj]

<div></div><p>I guess in theory a neutral class would remain the same class.</p><p>So if you wanted to be a Dark elf Warden etc living in Qeynos that would be no problem. The class change would only affect those who were betraying to a city where their current class is no longer allowed.</p>

[Christofurious]

Yes that should be the way it works.  But I think there may be people that are unhappy with their subclass that are looking (hoping) for the betrayal to be an opportunity to change to the "other" subclass.<div></div>

[Magu]

Edit; n/m<p>Message Edited by Magus` on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:43 PM</span></p>

[Svartmane]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Nerwen wrote:I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div><hr></blockquote>To put it simply, you will have the choice.  While characters whose original class is not limited by their city will not have to switch to the other class available to you, it will be an option for Betrayers.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Svartmane on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p>

[Hamen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Nerwen wrote:I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div><hr></blockquote>To put it simply, you will have the choice.  While you will not have to switch to the other class available to you, it will be an option for Betrayers.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Ok I don't mean to sound dense here, but I want to make sure I got this straight before I share with guildies ... does this mean that Necros can live in Qeynos or Rangers in Freeport ... just as examples?</p>

[Magu]

NO.You will NEVER be able to break the good/evil class lines.What the dev post says is that NEUTRAL branches can choose to change.So a dirge COULD change to a troubador, but they don't have to.A necro betraying F->Q *will* change to a conjuror.<div></div>

[Gravewolf]

No, they are only referring to Neutral classes (the ones that you can be in either city, i.e. Wizard/Warlock)<div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Nerwen wrote:I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div><hr></blockquote>To put it simply, you will have the choice.  While characters whose original class is not limited by their city will not have to switch to the other class available to you, it will be an option for Betrayers.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Nerwen wrote:I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div><hr></blockquote>To put it simply, you will have the choice.  While characters whose original class is not limited by their city will not have to switch to the other class available to you, it will be an option for Betrayers.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Svartmane on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>In other news.. sony fixes the much maligned and nerf'd Guardian Class by allowing them to respec as Berzerks .. LOLZerkers FTW !</span></div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Because they're going through the work to betray, and are willing to give up their spell upgrades?</span></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Because they're going through the work to betray, and are willing to give up their spell upgrades?</span></div><hr></blockquote>so add in a quest that anyone can do that isn't a betrayal that lets us swap classes willy nilly..   just because they become a traitor, and are thereafter treated like crap in tehir new city doens't mean they should get something extra than those of us who are happy in their city..</span></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Because they're going through the work to betray, and are willing to give up their spell upgrades?</span></div><hr></blockquote>so add in a quest that anyone can do that isn't a betrayal that lets us swap classes willy nilly..   just because they become a traitor, and are thereafter treated like crap in tehir new city doens't mean they should get something extra than those of us who are happy in their city..</span></div><hr></blockquote>What extra do they get? The one time opportunity to change from one neutral subclass to its alter ego class? If you want to do the quest you can!This only affects:Troubador/DirgeWizard/WarlockFury/WardenGuardian/BerzerkerIf you want to do the quest and loose all your spell upgrades then go for it. If you're happy in your city, then be happy!

[HolyAvengerOne]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Nerwen wrote:I have read about the way that the LU19 changes will affect the betrayal quests, but there is something that I have not fully understood.  If you were to run a betrayal quest as a neutral class, wouldn't you keep your class?  Would you get the choice to become either class?  Or what?For example, both Qeynos and Freeport have Furies and Guardians, Dirges and Troubadors, etc.  If I start in Freeport as a Dirge, and then go to Qeynos... wouldn't I still remain a Dirge, since the class is allowable in Qeynos? I did try to look it up but maybe I missed it.  Does anyone know this?ThanksJen<div></div><hr></blockquote>To put it simply, you will have the choice.  While characters whose original class is not limited by their city will not have to switch to the other class available to you, it will be an option for Betrayers.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Svartmane on <span class="date_text">01-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#339900"></font><font color="#339900">Can't wait to see how that option will be done in-game. Might be interesting to try <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Because they're going through the work to betray, and are willing to give up their spell upgrades?</span></div><hr></blockquote>so add in a quest that anyone can do that isn't a betrayal that lets us swap classes willy nilly..   just because they become a traitor, and are thereafter treated like crap in tehir new city doens't mean they should get something extra than those of us who are happy in their city..</span></div><hr></blockquote>What extra do they get? The one time opportunity to change from one neutral subclass to its alter ego class? If you want to do the quest you can!<hr></blockquote>the extra of being able to choose to swap classes that was stated as not in the cards as an option that we would get, and something that you cannot get now.  I can understand the forced change for citybound classes, but the neutrals dont need it.   If the devs are insistant upon allowing this change, then they should add in a quest, just as hard as the betrayal, that allows anyone a onetime shot to change classes without forcing a city change...</span></div>

[Svartmane]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>So, um, why do they get a choice that those of us who do not betray do not get?</span></div><hr></blockquote>Because they're going through the work to betray, and are willing to give up their spell upgrades?</span></div><hr></blockquote>so add in a quest that anyone can do that isn't a betrayal that lets us swap classes willy nilly..   just because they become a traitor, and are thereafter treated like crap in tehir new city doens't mean they should get something extra than those of us who are happy in their city..</span></div><hr></blockquote>What extra do they get? The one time opportunity to change from one neutral subclass to its alter ego class? If you want to do the quest you can!<hr></blockquote>the extra of being able to choose to swap classes that was stated as not in the cards as an option that we would get, and something that you cannot get now.  I can understand the forced change for citybound classes, but the neutrals dont need it.   If the devs are insistant upon allowing this change, then they should add in a quest, just as hard as the betrayal, that allows anyone a onetime shot to change classes without forcing a city change...</span></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change to their correlating class (ie Warlock -> Wizard) <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Svartmane on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:09 PM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I assume that's a one-shot quest...  so I couldn't decide to change my main to a Dirge, then change my mind back to Troubador, then change my mind again 'cause Dirge was cooler, then change my mind...</p><p>(woman's perogative, ya know)</p>

[Seiden]

I sorta like this idea, but I don't.I like the idea that neutral classes don't even have to do the quest, that is realistic.I don't like however that any class can swith to their opposing class at anytime. Example as follows.<font color="#ffcc00">Lets say class A is great at PvE and decent at Raids.</font><font color="#ffcc00">And class B is great at Raids but not so good at PvE.Lets say mr. Joe made the Raid character knowing he was going to get into a high level raiding guild later on.And mr. Bob made a pve character because he wanted to level easy.Later on they are both the same level, and Bob switches to the raid character. Now both joe and bob are raiding characters and bob had a easier time leveling.</font><div></div>

[Miracole]

<span><blockquote><hr>Seiden wrote:I sorta like this idea, but I don't.I like the idea that neutral classes don't even have to do the quest, that is realistic.I don't like however that any class can swith to their opposing class at anytime. Example as follows.<font color="#ffcc00">Lets say class A is great at PvE and decent at Raids.</font><font color="#ffcc00">And class B is great at Raids but not so good at PvE.Lets say mr. Joe made the Raid character knowing he was going to get into a high level raiding guild later on.And mr. Bob made a pve character because he wanted to level easy.Later on they are both the same level, and Bob switches to the raid character. Now both joe and bob are raiding characters and bob had a easier time leveling.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>you don't make any sense whatsoever.</span><div></div>

[HolyAvengerOne]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Miracole wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Seiden wrote:I sorta like this idea, but I don't.I like the idea that neutral classes don't even have to do the quest, that is realistic.I don't like however that any class can swith to their opposing class at anytime. Example as follows.<font color="#ffcc00">Lets say class A is great at PvE and decent at Raids.</font><font color="#ffcc00">And class B is great at Raids but not so good at PvE.Lets say mr. Joe made the Raid character knowing he was going to get into a high level raiding guild later on.And mr. Bob made a pve character because he wanted to level easy.Later on they are both the same level, and Bob switches to the raid character. Now both joe and bob are raiding characters and bob had a easier time leveling.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>you don't make any sense whatsoever.</span><div></div><font color="#339900"></font><hr></blockquote><font color="#339900">I concur.At any rate, the class-changing / betrayal quest will stll have a level limit to complete it, as it always had.So I wouldn't fear what I <i>think</i> you just tried to explain.</font></span></div>

[Magu]

No it won't.Once they revamp betrayal, it will work at any level, as they've clearly stated before.<div></div>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>Miracole wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Seiden wrote:I sorta like this idea, but I don't.I like the idea that neutral classes don't even have to do the quest, that is realistic.I don't like however that any class can swith to their opposing class at anytime. Example as follows.<font color="#ffcc00">Lets say class A is great at PvE and decent at Raids.</font><font color="#ffcc00">And class B is great at Raids but not so good at PvE.Lets say mr. Joe made the Raid character knowing he was going to get into a high level raiding guild later on.And mr. Bob made a pve character because he wanted to level easy.Later on they are both the same level, and Bob switches to the raid character. Now both joe and bob are raiding characters and bob had a easier time leveling.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>you don't make any sense whatsoever.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What he is saying is that some classes are better at endgame, and some are better 1-59 grinding. eg. classA lvls fast but is not so hot in endgame raiding. Class B lvls slowly but is good in the endgame. Now the most effective way to do this is to play classA to 60, then switch. This will annoy the people who did class B the hard way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SevrothVali]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll be cancelling my account. I don't like the direction this game is heading in. Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your CLASS in an mmorpg. I'm sure a race change quest will be coming in the future now too. Along with appearance changes, what you choose at character creation will no longer mean anything.I'm sure future mmorpgs will eventually follow this also, when players start whining that "well X game has the feature, why not this one!" (cause you know, every mmorpg has to have the same features for some reason). So I predict class and race change abilities in alot of future mmorpgs.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:25 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:26 AM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>SevrothValiba wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll be cancelling my account. I don't like the direction this game is heading in. Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your CLASS in an mmorpg. I'm sure a race change quest will be coming in the future now too. Along with appearance changes, what you choose at character creation will no longer mean anything.I'm sure future mmorpgs will eventually follow this also, when players start whining that "well X game has the feature, why not this one!" (cause you know, every mmorpg has to have the same features for some reason). So I predict class and race change abilities in alot of future mmorpgs.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:25 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually I predict this will be the last such game that does this. Youre right tho, EQ2 has gotten ridiculous. Its a different game each month so you have different toons. They tried to take a certain genre of game and make it 'genreless' so as maximise number of players. Instead of some people liking it, now we all equally dont like it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[VampireWookie]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I am a huge fan of this game, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.    Please let this consideration find it's way to the trash bin. 

[Ada]

<div></div>I can see with a betrayal, if your class is not supported in your new city, you're forced to change to the complimenting class (i.e. bruiser -> monk).  However, please don't allow class neutral class changes, with or without betrayal.  If you betray and your class is still supported, you should stay as that class.  Please don't add any other quests or mechanics to allow class changes.

[EvilErudite]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:No it won't.Once they revamp betrayal, it will work at any level, as they've clearly stated before.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Better watch out, they'll probably change their minds and people will bash you cause you stated it as fact....:smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>VampireWookie wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I am a huge fan of this game, but this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.    Please let this consideration find it's way to the trash bin. <hr></blockquote>Well it is stupid ... and it isnt ... all at the same time. In LU13 they effectively rewrote the game and the classes. This is just doing it again only with the players choice this time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This game is not a slightly improved version of the game release over a year ago. Its a totally different game. Different classes, different game play.So the question is does it make more sense to pick a genre and style of game and then stick with it like eq1 or wow. Or is it best to radically shift your base on every whim of the verbal minority like eq2?

[Anlari]

<div></div>The ability to change classes is going to be a huge disturbance in the game.  Especialy if they keep their goal on letting you betray at any level and then rebetray as many times as you like.  This is a very bad change that will further reduce the community in the game and dilute your choices to having even less consiquences and impact on the world.  Huge mistake, its the one feature of that stupid matrix online game that keeps people from playing it. 

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span>the extra of being able to choose to swap classes that was stated as not in the cards as an option that we would get, and something that you cannot get now.  I can understand the forced change for citybound classes, but the neutrals dont need it.   If the devs are insistant upon allowing this change, then they should add in a quest, just as hard as the betrayal, that allows anyone a onetime shot to change classes without forcing a city change...</span></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Excellent!   I think this is a great compromise Svartmane..   While not an advocate of allowing changing of classes at all, This is much more balanced of an idea.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Schirf]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>SevrothValiba wrote:<div></div><div></div><span>Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your CLASS in an mmorpg. </span><hr></blockquote><p>You're behind the times.  There are other MMORPGs that allow true class changes.  SWG, for example, had the feature at release several years ago.</p><p>You're being give the ability to change what is today called your "subclass", not the base class.  Yes, it's called "class" under the new terminology, but allowing a Troubadour to switch to Dirge is not the same as allowing a Troubadour to switch to Assassin.  </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Schirf on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:41 AM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

Why not let us log in each day, type in what class and race we want to be, type a level between 1 and 60 and hit ENTER WORLD?

[Schirf]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:Why not let us log in each day, type in what class and race we want to be, type a level between 1 and 60 and hit ENTER WORLD?<hr></blockquote><p>Hyperbole gets us nowhere.</p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div></div><div>I think these are interesting ideas.  It is nice to have options, and its my opinion that the changes back and forth may actually be good for the game.  Surges and deficits in classes may make for a longer lasting game, maybe.  Also, with the penalties, more masters and adept IIIs will be needed, which may fuel the economy and help with supply and demand. </div><div> </div><div>Now I for one would like the option, like they had in EQ1 at one time, to zone in as a zone wandering monster, and attack PCs heh.  I had such a fun time when they implemented this.</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:56 AM</span></p>

[Sen]

<div></div><span>>I'll be cancelling my account. I don't like the direction this game is heading in. Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your>CLASS in an mmorpg. I'm sure a race change quest will be coming in the future now too. Along with appearance changes, what you>choose at character creation will no longer mean anything.That kind of change is not new. SWG had it before NGE, FFXI has it. Although in those cases, you had to start from the bottom getting your XP and levels up with the new class/job/profession. In the SWG case, you had to loose your previously earned "levels" partially or completely, in FFXI you still have the levels you earned with the old one, and you can switch at any time.It does not sound too bad if the change is just for class pairs like Dirge<->Troubador if you still keep your level. But change to any class and keep the level would not be a good idea.</span><p>Message Edited by Sente on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:58 PM</span></p>

[Schirf]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sente wrote:<div></div><span>It does not sound too bad if the change is just for class pairs like Dirge<->Troubador if you still keep your level. But change to any class and keep the level would not be a good idea.</span><hr></blockquote>It's just class pairs, and is a way to allow neutral classes to have what aligned classes will have... the ability to change within the pair by doing a quest.

[Seiden]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>Miracole wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Seiden wrote:I sorta like this idea, but I don't.I like the idea that neutral classes don't even have to do the quest, that is realistic.I don't like however that any class can swith to their opposing class at anytime. Example as follows.<font color="#ffcc00">Lets say class A is great at PvE and decent at Raids.</font><font color="#ffcc00">And class B is great at Raids but not so good at PvE.Lets say mr. Joe made the Raid character knowing he was going to get into a high level raiding guild later on.And mr. Bob made a pve character because he wanted to level easy.Later on they are both the same level, and Bob switches to the raid character. Now both joe and bob are raiding characters and bob had a easier time leveling.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>you don't make any sense whatsoever.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What he is saying is that some classes are better at endgame, and some are better 1-59 grinding. eg. classA lvls fast but is not so hot in endgame raiding. Class B lvls slowly but is good in the endgame. Now the most effective way to do this is to play classA to 60, then switch. This will annoy the people who did class B the hard way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>thank you.</span></div>

[brow27]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div>The ability to change classes is going to be a huge disturbance in the game.  Especialy if they keep their goal on letting you betray at any level and then rebetray as many times as you like.  This is a very bad change that will further reduce the community in the game and dilute your choices to having even less consiquences and impact on the world.  Huge mistake, its the one feature of that stupid matrix online game that keeps people from playing it. <hr></blockquote>Does anyone actually read what the devs say, or just post based on speculation based on other people's speculation?  The devs have stated that you will only be able to betray ONE TIME.  Also, the only classes that would allow switching (and this only ONCE), are the classes that are neutral to each city.  Don't forget that if you switch, ALL of your spells become apprentice 1 -  that means if you switch at high level (after a VERY difficult quest I would think), all the money you spent on spell upgrades? gone .. and I hope you have limitless plat with which too upgrade all your spells again with the new class.</span><div></div>

[Schirf]

<div></div>You can currently do each quest once, meaning that it's possible to betray back to your starting city after you leave it.  Yes, I've tested this and done it on three different characters.  I hope we don't lose that ability, but I'm not sure I like the idea of being able to do it without any restriction.

[Geothe]

<div></div><p>I actually like that they may include a quest to switch within your neutral subclass (ie Guard to Zerker).  Heck, I may actually start playing my Guard again that I shelved since LU13 if I can change him to zerker.</p><p>There should be a big negative attached to this, and that would be all your CAs/Spells reverting to App I again.  That makes it costly to make the switch asside from having to complete the actual quest itself.  </p>

[Wasuna]

<div></div><div>This is sad. I'm one of the vocal Guardians that wants our class balanced. Now instead of balancing the Guardian class they just allow us to become Bezerkers.</div><div> </div><div>Lost what little respect I have for SOE due to this.</div>

[HereticNovalis]

<div></div><p>yer</p><p>the good thing is: i will be the only guardian around on my server <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>yay me! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Wulfborne]

<div>The whole concept of changing your class (or subclass...whatever) is simply absurd. This is particularly true since it's apparently under consideration that you can do so at any level.</div><div> </div><div>I realize that it doesn't make sense for a Shadowknight (the dark arm of hate, spite, and discontent) to roam around in Qeynos as a trusted citizen. It's no more likely that a Paladin should ride the streets of Freeport on his Holy Steed and be looked upon as a loyal supporter of Lucan. However, consider this... How realistic is it, that the above mentioned Paladin would betray, and suddenly lose all knowledge, memory and skill in the arts that he had spent his life honing and instead gain skills and crafts in the Dark Arts that Shadowknights spend years surviving torments and self-torture to wring from their (now former) masters' worthless hides? I mean really... Can game designers spit in their bosses' faces one day and go work as a surgeon in a hospital? I wouldn't lay money on it.</div><div> </div><div>Given the unrealistic features outlined above, and the overall loss of flavor the game would experience, I'd suggest at least leaving the level restriction for completing such a quest at 20. By then a player should have a good idea if they like their class (especially now that you are removing subclasses) and should know if they like their home city.</div><div> </div><div>An alternate solution might be to lose your character's level and have it reset back to level 20. Levels *are* supposed to indicate levels of knowledge and skill in your chosen profession, are they not? So, a master necromancer (lvl 70 after expansion) shouldn't automatically become a master conjuror if he elected to change his profession. He'd need to work his way up in the world and learn the 'tricks of the trade" as he did so.</div><div> </div><div>These same arguments should hold true for the "neutral classes" changing their class with betrayal.</div><div> </div><div>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</div><div> </div>

[HereticNovalis]

<div>another idea</div><div>multi-class would be another option, aside of betrayal</div><div>like it is usual in (A)D&D (i am NOT referring to DDO, for this game sucks badly)</div><div> </div><div>let's say you start your char as a monk, play him til 70 and decide to learn "more" - you learn another, additional, profession - let's say guardian and start it at level 1. you are still able to use your monk skills (as long as you fulfill the restrictions such as armor/weapon type) and gain knowledge of the ways how a guardian works.</div><div> </div><div>your level then would be Monk 70 / Guardian 1</div><div> </div><div>just an idea ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> maybe interesting for engame ^^</div>

[geldonyetich]

This was precisely the quesiton I had, thanks for having this thread.I was afraid that Ratonga Swashbucklers and Monks would be no more, reasoning that they had to betray prior ot level 20 in order to become one, but looks like my accusation was incorrect.<div></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>SevrothValiba wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Svartmane wrote:<span><blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll be cancelling my account. I don't like the direction this game is heading in. Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your CLASS in an mmorpg. I'm sure a race change quest will be coming in the future now too. Along with appearance changes, what you choose at character creation will no longer mean anything.I'm sure future mmorpgs will eventually follow this also, when players start whining that "well X game has the feature, why not this one!" (cause you know, every mmorpg has to have the same features for some reason). So I predict class and race change abilities in alot of future mmorpgs.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:25 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by SevrothValiba on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If you're going to rant at least know what the heII you're ranting about!1. Only 4 classes would get to "switch" to their sibling classe. 4! The other classes would be forced to switch IF they did the betrayal quest.2. I HIGHLY doubt this would get abused by anyone over L20-30. I can't imagine running around with only Apprentice I spells just so I could get the other class I'm MOST SIMILAR TO ANYWAY! Its not like I could be a tank one day, and mage the next!

[Tharangus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HereticNovalis wrote:<div>another idea</div><div>multi-class would be another option, aside of betrayal</div><div>like it is usual in (A)D&D (i am NOT referring to DDO, for this game sucks badly)</div><div> </div><div>let's say you start your char as a monk, play him til 70 and decide to learn "more" - you learn another, additional, profession - let's say guardian and start it at level 1. you are still able to use your monk skills (as long as you fulfill the restrictions such as armor/weapon type) and gain knowledge of the ways how a guardian works.</div><div> </div><div>your level then would be Monk 70 / Guardian 1</div><div> </div><div>just an idea ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> maybe interesting for engame ^^</div><hr></blockquote><p>You know what... no... never... ever would I want to see something like this in EQ2.  This is a primary game mechanic in FFXI and the result of such a mechanic is that it locks-in certain combinations that will work while others do not.  For example,  Paladin as main class and warrior as sub is the only acceptable combination.  Any other combination is considered gimped in that game with the exception of specific situations.  Also, you have the ability to cange classes at will in that game.  Also, if you do not unlock all the "useful" classes in that game, you are also considered to be gimped.</p><p>That said, the ability to change your class in EQ2 already exists... but at a very hefty price... it's called a re-roll.  I've known a few people who did this post LU13 because of what happened to their class.</p>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Wulfborne wrote:<div>The whole concept of changing your class (or subclass...whatever) is simply absurd. This is particularly true since it's apparently under consideration that you can do so at any level.</div><div> </div><div>I realize that it doesn't make sense for a Shadowknight (the dark arm of hate, spite, and discontent) to roam around in Qeynos as a trusted citizen. It's no more likely that a Paladin should ride the streets of Freeport on his Holy Steed and be looked upon as a loyal supporter of Lucan. However, consider this... How realistic is it, that the above mentioned Paladin would betray, and suddenly lose all knowledge, memory and skill in the arts that he had spent his life honing and instead gain skills and crafts in the Dark Arts that Shadowknights spend years surviving torments and self-torture to wring from their (now former) masters' worthless hides? I mean really... Can game designers spit in their bosses' faces one day and go work as a surgeon in a hospital? I wouldn't lay money on it.</div><div> </div><div>Given the unrealistic features outlined above, and the overall loss of flavor the game would experience, I'd suggest at least leaving the level restriction for completing such a quest at 20. By then a player should have a good idea if they like their class (especially now that you are removing subclasses) and should know if they like their home city.</div><div> </div><div>An alternate solution might be to lose your character's level and have it reset back to level 20. Levels *are* supposed to indicate levels of knowledge and skill in your chosen profession, are they not? So, a master necromancer (lvl 70 after expansion) shouldn't automatically become a master conjuror if he elected to change his profession. He'd need to work his way up in the world and learn the 'tricks of the trade" as he did so.</div><div> </div><div>These same arguments should hold true for the "neutral classes" changing their class with betrayal.</div><div> </div><div>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>The same chance that Anakin would for-sake his Jedi teachings and become a Sith Lord. Jedi vs Sith is the same parrallell as Paladin vs SK.If a L60 Paladin fell from grace and turned evil, his lay on hands... used to heal, would be twisted into harm touch, which takes away life... etc...And an SK that found a higher calling... yes... they may gain the grace of a divine power that converts their dark powers of death and decay to those of healing and salvation...Your doctor analogy is stupid. This is NOT a role change. This is simply a different perspective on the same roll. It like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde.

[Tild]

<div>The main problem I have is this, people are going to abandon certain classes in favor of their counterpart because the other side is better at the endgame.</div><div> </div><div>For example, currently SKs are very very poor at holding agro when compared to Pallys on raids.  In an exp grp they do just fine, they solo much better (from what I can tell), are terrifying to duel, but due to a lack of amends they have a huge disadvantage when it comes to agro gaining abilites.  So I have a feeling that when this goes live, we're not going to see very many high lvl SKs since their counterpart is better in the high end.</div><div> </div><div>The same is true of Rangers and Assassins.  Both are good classes, but I've yet to meet a lvl 60 Assassin who can even touch a lvl 60 Rangers DPS.  This is an inbalance that SOE needs to adress, I agree, but letting people change their class makes no sense to me.  Say goodbye to all the Assassins, they're all gonna switch to Rangers in the high lvls.</div><div> </div><div>This is a bad idea.  Leave the betrayal cap at 20, people should be able to decide on their final class by then.</div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div>I like the idea of class changing.  </div><div> </div><div>1.  It would help keep the market stimulated.  As people change classes, new armor, items and spells/CAs adepts would be needed.  This would help keep an economy going in my opinion.</div><div> </div><div>2.  It would be a great check and balance system to ensure that no one class is too overpowered.  SOE could definately tell which class has the uber dps/utility/king of the MT areas of focus.  If SOE saw a trend that was choking one class out, they could give that class some extra whatever they need to have the numbers grow again.</div><div> </div><div>3.  It would give the people that are kind of new to these types of games, a chance to try a different class if they feel they would be happier after seeing what the other side of the fence looks like.  Nobody knows their class at level 20, come on!  I don't think anyone even sees the potential of the class until end game.</div><div> </div><div>4.  It may just push to the front the idea of actual skill in this game.  Do you want a level 60 tank that has just changed classed from warlock tanking for you, or the 60 tank that has always been a level 60 tank.  Maybe skill will be more noticable now?  Who knows.</div><div> </div><div>Anyways, I guess we shall see what happens.  I think this system may just have some merit, if we think outside of the EQ1 box.</div>

[StGeorg]

<div>I welcome this change - very much so!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Everquest 2 is my first MMORPG. I did not know all the lingo. Tank, DPS, raids, etc.</div><div> </div><div>My main is now level 58 and I am ready for some change now that I understand the game better. Why did I play him for so long if I did not like him?</div><div>Cuz I did not want to sink that much time into another main.</div><div> </div><div>I think most everyone by now had a good chance to play the game and probably either loves his main or created some alts that they like better.</div><div>Giving us the option to change classes whenever we want is actually a move in the right direction as far as I am concerend.</div><div>We are the customers, we should be happy with the product and the classes we are playing.</div><div> </div><div>Why lock someone into an unhappy spot they cannot get back out of?!? That makes no sense to me.</div><div> </div><div>People wont change toons every other day because it will cost them a lot of coin to get Adpets 3 made again as well as changing out complete sets of gear.</div><div>I think only people who are truly unhappy with their main's class will switch them into a new one.</div><div> </div><div>To many people get joy out of seeing other peoples classes at a disadvantage. Let us do what we want to be happy.</div><div> </div><div>I would also like to advocated a change that would allow us to move from Warrior to Crusader class or to any other class we like. You should also be allowed to change your race with the same penalties attached.</div><div> </div><div>Some of you call it stupid -</div><div> </div><div>I have not heard of a better thing coming to EQ2. I am VERY VERY excited!!!</div><div> </div><div>Wohoooooo!!! /dance /smile /laugh</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Thank you EQ2 team - Awesome <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Antedeluvian - level 58 Warrior Unrest</div>

[Geothe]

<div></div>"<div>4.  It may just push to the front the idea of actual skill in this game.  Do you want a level 60 tank that has just changed classed from warlock tanking for you, or the 60 tank that has always been a level 60 tank.  Maybe skill will be more noticable now?  Who knows."</div><div> </div><div>YOu may want to carefully re-read what has been said.  The only class switching that would happen would be between subclass "halves"   ie Guard and Zerk.  Wiz and Warlock.  Troub and Dirge.  Warden and Fury.  </div><div>That's it.</div><div>And of course the good/evil halves when you betray cities.</div><div>There will be no archae-type to archae-type changes, nor. between different subclass branches of the same archaetype (ie Monk to Zerker)</div>

[modnar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>like others have said only the classes such as ZERK/GUARD, wiz/war, fury/warden, Dirge/troub will be able to change and they can only change to there class counterpart. Zerk becomes Guard.......I like this i idea because i have a 45 guard and a 51 bruiser i would much rather do DpS then tank or at least MT......(bruisers can tank fine but with good weapons in the ofensive stance they can hand out alot of DpS) but i would want to be a zerker more thena guard casue i heard they are food DpS.<p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:45 PM</span></p>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><div><font color="#ffff00">Svartmane said....</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">This is what I read from one of the developers about this topic.  from what I read, he has not mentioned any archetype limitations as of yet.  As it is now, we are assuming quite a bit, heh, lets not paint ourselves into a corner by giving the devs the idea that they only have to work code to change within archetypes....shall we???</font></div><div> </div><div>If they are going to allow changes, lets let a person change to any class they want.  I mean we can have limitations on the number of times a person changes class, but why limit ourselves to WHAT we change to?</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:06 PM</span></p>

[EpokSilvermo]

<div></div>/troll engageschanging subclass? anytime? with a quest? at any level?so now we will get even more of those adventurers who have no clue about their class and are a pain for every raid/group because now they not only rush/solo through their level with that WoW experience gain but also can change their class at anytime LOL? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/troll yells for help... sorry could'nt resist <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by butchrulez on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:16 PM</span></p>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#ffff00">Svartmane said....</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">When the <i>NEW </i>betrayal quest is implemented in an upcoming update we are currently considering allowing non-city specific classes to change their class <i>without </i>betraying.  The penalties associated with the change (resetting all spells to Apprentice I) <i>would </i>still apply in this situation however.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">This is what I read from one of the developers about this topic.  from what I read, he has not mentioned any archetype limitations as of yet.  As it is now, we are assuming quite a bit, heh, lets not paint ourselves into a corner by giving the devs the idea that they only have to work code to change within archetypes....shall we???</font></div><div> </div><div>If they are going to allow changes, lets let a person change to any class they want.  I mean we can have limitations on the number of times a person changes class, but why limit ourselves to WHAT we change to?</div><p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class="date_text">01-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:06 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>BECAUSE CHANGING CLASSES GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING AN MMO IS!.And btw, if you know anything about EQ2, and you can read. Then he said everything he needed to quite clearly.The ONLY changes they're concidering is letting the 4 classes that city neutral do what their betraying counterparts would be able to do, without having to betray. In essence they're doing a non-city betrayal...This is NOT a discussion about full unlimited class swapping. and if SoE ever did that they'd have empty servers a month later. NO MMO has ever allowed full out class changing and never will. It basically ruins the game's replay value and trivializes upper level gameplay and advancement.

[Nerwen]

I am really surprised to see that this thread has grown to three pages in length!When I asked the question, I actually had  a <i><u>roleplaying</u></i> story in mind - an aspect that it seems no one, so far, has mentioned.  Dirges always sounded to me like a class who, for the most part, played sad or angry sorts of music, battle hymns, funeral dirges (thus the name) etc.  Troubadors sounded like a class who tended to play happy or fun sorts of music (I always envision the Norrathian equivelant of the Beatles.)  I was thinking of a character who starts out as a Dirge, because her parents and grandparents, etc., were Dirges, and of <i><u>course</u></i> she was going to be a Dirge... when she really wanted to be a Troubador because she liked the style of music better.  (There is a very, very old cartoon they used to show on TV, about a family of classical-music-loving owls and their horror with one of their owlets who loved (gasp!) JAZZ!  I was envisioning the same sort of scenario.)I was not thinking of raiding, endgame, numbers, stats, or anything else - I was thinking of the story of the character.  While I realize that people will try and take advantage of it, as they do of anything, I think we need to have a betrayal quest for neutral classes to support storylines like these.Jen <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[MrDiz]

It may only be guardian to zerker switches right now, but give the whiners enough time and we will be allowed to switch from templars to assassins, or halflings to ogres. This change may please one crowd but it will totally alienate the other. Whats worse is the crowd it will please are not the sort of crowd who will still be here in 2 years time.My guess right now is Sony will have decided that none of the current team will work on Everquest3. They have thrashed around from one idea to another and left players with a sense of disassociation from their own characters. There is no sense of achievement in my characters now. Nothing I have means anything because I dont trust it to be there next time I log on.

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>brow27 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div>The ability to change classes is going to be a huge disturbance in the game.  Especialy if they keep their goal on letting you betray at any level and then rebetray as many times as you like.  This is a very bad change that will further reduce the community in the game and dilute your choices to having even less consiquences and impact on the world.  Huge mistake, its the one feature of that stupid matrix online game that keeps people from playing it. <hr></blockquote>Does anyone actually read what the devs say, or just post based on speculation based on other people's speculation?  The devs have stated that you will only be able to betray ONE TIME.  Also, the only classes that would allow switching (and this only ONCE), are the classes that are neutral to each city.  Don't forget that if you switch, ALL of your spells become apprentice 1 -  that means if you switch at high level (after a VERY difficult quest I would think), all the money you spent on spell upgrades? gone .. and I hope you have limitless plat with which too upgrade all your spells again with the new class.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Where does it say one time?  Moorgard actualy posted that the betrayal quest could be repeated at any level.  Repeated means more then once.  The city based class change quest would likely follow suit, so please post the link where it says once.  If I'm mistaken, I'll be a bit less edgy about the idea.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><p>When I said we could have limitations to how many times a person does this, I was meaning that maybe with player input, all the, /cough outraged people would be more happy.  I don't really have any problem with people doing this all they want.  In fact, I welcome it. </p><p>Everyone, back to your outrage.  Weeeee</p>

[DerDrac]

<div></div><p>well think about this for a minute. The devs have blatantly said in a thread concerning appearance changes that they would not be allowing this at will as it will somehow make the player less recognizable to other players. Ie changing your face everytime you wish just like /face in eq1 would never make it to eq2 because they want you to be unique and specific and recognizable.</p><p>So where did this craptastic idea of class changing at will come from i wonder. Hi my name is x, this week im a wizard, next week i will be a warlock. This doesn't make much sense.</p><p>SOE: we're revamping levels 1-20 so it doesnt take you 20 levels to decide if you like the class (in reality 30)</p><p>ME: sounds good, i like it.</p><p>SOE: now you can try out similar classes by switching or betraying at will through a quest</p><p>ME: hmmmmmm</p><p>SOE: now you dont even have to betray, just switch to a warlock whenever you need to</p><p>ME: <a href="http://www.istaria.com" target="_blank">www.istaria.com</a> Horizons anyone...... ick</p><p>SOE: YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOUR FACIAL APPEARANCE ONE TIME!</p><p>ME: allright now that just makes a whole lot of sense.</p><p>I don't want to be able to change my appearance, thats why i spent enough time to begin with choosing it, because i knew i wouldnt be able to change it later, same with my class and alts class. Just sounds rediculous. Who asked for it. All i've seen are the usual</p><p>more armor looksmore class distinction</p><p>that sort of thing.</p><p>Oh well, we'll see....</p><p>KoS FTW!</p>

[Schirf]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div><p>Where does it say one time?  Moorgard actualy posted that the betrayal quest could be repeated at any level.  Repeated means more then once. </p><hr></blockquote>I'm not saying that the post doesn't exist, but I can't seem to find the Moorgard post.  Can you provide a link?

[HereticNovalis]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:2. I HIGHLY doubt this would get abused by anyone over L20-30. I can't imagine running around with only Apprentice I spells just so I could get the other class I'm MOST SIMILAR TO ANYWAY! Its not like I could be a tank one day, and mage the next!<hr></blockquote>you never played a guardian post LU13 huh?

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Schirf wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div><p>Where does it say one time?  Moorgard actualy posted that the betrayal quest could be repeated at any level.  Repeated means more then once. </p><hr></blockquote>I'm not saying that the post doesn't exist, but I can't seem to find the Moorgard post.  Can you provide a link?<hr></blockquote>I'll check fpor it in the morning, but there is a similar post about being able to change to berserkers that has the quotes.

[Galn]

<div>I am actually looking forward to this change. Too bad I didnt know about it before I deleted my lvl 22 Assassin, but I havent deleted my lvl 30 Warlock, which I shelved because a guildie with a Wizard was telling me about the things Wizards had compared to Warlocks and the class <strong>fits my style better</strong> than the Warlock. Sure I could roll a Wizard and delete the Walock, but this will save me time.</div><div> </div><div>Everyone cries about class changing and all that but I do about 4 class changes a day.. I log off one character and log another... :smileysurprised: thats the same thing, but without the skills dropping to app I... now someone is going to claim camping to character select and changing characters is an exploit... (/sarcasm off) :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Anlari]

<div>Noone said it would be an exploit, just a disruption in an already sparse community.  They are adding whole new content in low levels, if someone wants to play a different class, then start one.  What we will see is people leveling the better solo class and then switching to the raid on near the end game.  It belittles the importance of player choices yet again.</div>

[Grey-Cat]

<font size="3" face="Century">Just my two cents but I love this idea. I am really looking forward to when this goes live, it will make me dust off my old retired character and take her for a spin again. It should be fun.</font><div></div>

[Sar]

<div>OMG guys, get over it, its no different than having a subclass in DDO ranger/healer combo. or what about FFXI, you can play one character your entire time and play all the class combos... its not that serious of an issue. Futhermore, Sony is prolly going to have ALOT of restrictions and downfalls on this, IE the spells set back at APP 1, thats harsh, not to mention having to do a hugh betrayal quest at all. Hell I vote for how FFXI does it, able to switch at anytime to any and all classes. That was prolly one of the best ideas in an MMO that I've seen yet.! I loved it, but I love EQ better so I play EQ, hehe! I think this change will be interesting and good! I's 1000% for it.</div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><i>"</i><span><i>Never thought i'd see the day where they let you change your CLASS in an mmorpg."</i>Get over it.  I don't see what the huge problem is.  Like they said, you will only have one choice to switch to, the class that is the closest in relation to the one you currently play.  It's not that big of a deal, honestly.  The difference between a Guardian and a Zerker is not that drastic.  Same with Wizard/Warlock, etc.  So it's not like someone who changes their class from one to the other is going to have that much trouble figuring it out.  A good number of their spells are practically identical anyway.  It's not like you are going to be able to change into anything you want, as in like a Guardian can become a Wizard.  That will never happen.  Personally I think this is a great idea, especially if they are ever going to be making any more drastic changes to any of the classes in future expansions.  Hopefully they won't do that but just in case they do people will have something to fall back on so their characters won't be totally ruined.  In case you didn't notice, most of the changes they make to classes in this game really bother people who have played them for a long time and enjoy playing them the way they are, often so much that they don't have any fun playing their character anymore after their class gets changed by the devs.  At least now if/when that happens people will have some kind of option to change to another class so they can continue enjoying their main character instead of being forced to abandon it and reroll a whole new character and start all over from level 1 to continue being able to do what they like.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 PM</span></p>

[Za]

The funny thing is that NOWHERE does it say that anyone would ever be allowed to change base classes... EVER.I'll give $100 to each of you the day SoE allows base class changes. They won't!And this change is more a side effect of the fact that people that betray MUST change classes in some cases, but not others... so they're sort of rippling the effects out.- Classes that exist in only 1 city, must change subclass when they betray, (always been this way)...just a small difference.- Classes that exist in both cities, get to rechoose, which subclass they'll keep when they betray.- For neutral classes that don't want to betray, they may eventually get a quest similar to betrayal that would let them switch without changing cities.THAT'S ALL FOLKS!SoE won't be letting people turn their L60 assassin into a L60 Templar. That will never see the day.I personally don't have a problem with subclass changes as long as it makes sence and isn't abused.Complete class changes trivialize and ruin the game... And don't argue with me please, you're wrong. Its like candy... you love it, you want it, and you don't really care that you're teeth will rot out. That kind of change would be great... until everyone realized how trivial it made things, but by then you're toothless.

[urgatorbait]

<div></div><p>Thank Goodness!  If this goes live I can finally change from a Warlock to  Wizard since I have not enjoyed playing her since the combat changes many months ago.  Never wanted to be AoE specialist anyways and now I can counter those changes that were forced upon me in the first place.</p><p>Woot!</p><p> </p>

[Meryddian]

<div></div><em><font size="2" color="#ccffcc">I realize that it doesn't make sense for a Shadowknight (the dark arm of hate, spite, and discontent) to roam around in Qeynos as a trusted citizen. It's no more likely that a Paladin should ride the streets of Freeport on his Holy Steed and be looked upon as a loyal supporter of Lucan. However, consider this... <strong>How realistic is it, that the above mentioned Paladin would betray, and suddenly lose all knowledge, memory and skill in the arts that he had spent his life honing and instead gain skills and crafts in the Dark Arts that Shadowknights spend years surviving torments and self-torture to wring from their (now former) masters' worthless hides? </strong>I mean really...</font></em><div><hr></div><font size="2" face="Helv"><p>One of the things I liked in EQ1 was that if you worked your faction hard enough, you could become trusted - albeit somewhat grudgingly - by certain cities. For example, my main was a high elf enchanter who worshipped Mithaniel Marr. I lived in the dungeons of Kunark for much of her life - I could still guide somebody around those zones blindfolded. As a result of hundreds upon thousands of goblins, Sarnaks and frogs falling before me, I could walk pretty freely around quite a lot of Cabilis (which made a pretty handy shortcut).</p><p>But there were certain factions that would never, ever trust me because they could smell the err, taint, of Mithaniel Marr upon me. I could never walk freely into say, the necro guild, or the shamans, or the SKs.</p><p>Now, had I been agnostic or if I worshipped a neutral or evil diety, I could've done the questing to raise the proper factions. It would've taken a lot of work, but it would've been doable.</p><p>Likewise, after a day of highly enjoyable afternoon in Plane of Growth, I could no longer visit the cleric or paladin guild in Felwithe (Mithaniel Marr still thought I was a-okay, but Tunare's followers were most unhappy with me). And that annoying fisherchick ran after me every time I went to Felwithe-B.</p><p>EQ2 is not saddled with religion issues; therefore, unlike EQ where specific classes (knights, priests, etc) required you to pick a diety, because you "owed your powers" to said diety - that issue does not exist. The opposing city cannot look down upon you for worshipping Cazel or Mithaniel Marr or whoever else floated your boat.</p><p>Additionally, EQ2 doesn't have city-specific trainers. You may only be able to buy the base spells from your home city, but - like somebody in EQ1 who intentionally/unintentionally managed to ruin the faction of their own trainers - there's alternative means, such as supporting your local tradeskillers. (If good vs. evil *really* matters, how come "good" sages can make "evil" spells?)</p><p>I agree that it's ridiculous that, for example, a Shadowknight would just *blam*, lose a lifetime's knowledge and just suddenly become a paladin. A person can be evil in profession and still serve the good side, or vice versa. Lots of people on the evil side of town like myself have RPG storylines that support their current class, and wouldn't give up that class, even if our fondest dream - to live in Qeynos - came true. Changing somebody's class at 40 or 50 or 60 and having to learn a new skillset from scratch would practically be the equivalent of buying a toon on eBay and learning the class. (Not to mention losing Adept IIIs and Master spells would, well, stink like rotten dragon eggs.)</p><p>One of the complaints about EQ2 is that there hasn't been enough "flavor" between the cities - ie. unable to kill the opposing city's guards, for example. I think that changing the betrayal class to be doable at any level would be the perfect time to introduce more flavor into the cities.</p><p>For example, somebody playing an "evil" class could start with negative hits to the city factions, and never be able to get above "warmly" with city factions. There could be certain characters that either outright refuse to sell to "traitors" or who charge big markups. Random chat NPCs could say different things to "evil" betrayers until those people build up enough city faction. Somebody who betrays at the 40+ level should be a really big thing;the player should feel that it's really taking a lot to earn the new city's trust.</p><p>There could even be subquests that new citizens to the city who are retaining classes from the opposing city would have to perform before they are "trusted enough" to take on city faction writs.</p><p>Of course, if a player changing cities took the *option* of changing to the opposite city's equivalent, that would give them a different level of faction, etc. when they arrived in their new city. It could be part of the whole betrayal quest - choosing to betray not just their city but their class.</p></font><p>Message Edited by Meryddian on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:44 PM</span></p>

[Willias]

Personally, I think if they make it to where people who pick the "neutral" classes can switch without changing their home city and lowering their faction, most people would switch over to the more powerful version of the class, if one exists (i.e. Berserkers and Guardians).If that happens, I have an odd feeling that there'll be a huge class imbalance on servers (tons upon tons of zerkers, a handful of guardians) that shows that there is a true balance problem between the classes, and then Sony might finally get around to fixing up the weaker versions of the class types.Then again, I may just be overly hopeful.<div></div>

[cakreud]

I like the neutral class switching ideas for the same reason that some of you don't.  When the game first started people weren't sure which class would be best for them and the difference between, say guardian and berserker, wasn't enough for them to start over.And, in my opinion, if the class change on betrayal is definate, class change for neutrals should be as well.<div></div>

[Pyrrhx]

<div></div><p>I think for the neutral class/non-betrayers there should be a quest that allows them to switch to the alternate subclass, however...  Their level should be reset to lvl 1. </p><p>If you think about it, what with the loss of shared abilities (i.e. fighter-->warrior-->...) a guardian switching to a zerker would not have any training (read: Experience) with the zerker arts, and should therefor start from the beginning.  This in effect is kinda like the old dual-classing of AD&D (with the exception that you'll never be able to use your old abilities) where if you decided to take a dual class, you'd start at lvl1, and not be able to use your initial class' abilities.</p><p>So.. Add that on to non-betrayal subclass class switching q, and i think  the penalty will justify the quest's existence. </p>

[Geothe]

<div>Pyrrhx,</div><div> </div><div>That makes zero sense, what so ever.</div><div> </div><div>You think A guard to zerk switch should end up with the character being lvl 1 since they have had no training in the other class?</div><div> </div><div>How has a SK had Pally training? or vice versa?</div><div>How has a Conjuror had Necromancer training?</div><div> </div><div>Oh wait.</div><div>They haven't.  Yet they stay the same level.</div>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<div></div><p>I think this idea makes perfect sense.</p><p>For the casual gamer, it opens up a new dimension to the game in offering a change of playstyle and home city that they'd otherwise never experience.</p><p>For the hardcore, the actual cost will ensure this isn't undertaken lightly (having lots of master 1 spells reset to app 1 is a hefty penalty), yet it offers an avenue of escape for those so frustrated, bored or disillusioned by their end-game class they'd otherwise quit the game.</p><p>Of all the arguments against it, I haven't heard one that makes any real sense. Surely if doing this results in 95% of warriors becoming berzerkers, then the problem is with the balance between guardian and berzerker classes and not the ability to switch.</p><p> </p>

[myount]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>urgatorbait wrote:<div></div><p>Thank Goodness!  If this goes live I can finally change from a Warlock to  Wizard since I have not enjoyed playing her since the combat changes many months ago.  Never wanted to be AoE specialist anyways and now I can counter those changes that were forced upon me in the first place.</p><p>Woot!</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree wholeheartedly on this statement.  I played a warlock back in the day when they were the single target damage.  I loved playing him, then SoE decided to change his entire profession.  I would play him again if i could switch to the class that i started with ~ Single target massive damage.</p><p>I am still on the fence with my Warden though.  Furies are alot better at just about everything a druid has to offer but it will be hard switching. </p>

[Delameko Stone]

90% of players betray because they want to play an evil/good race as a good/evil class (a froglok assassin, or a ratonga paladin etc).  Just because ranger does more DPS doesn't mean they're suddenly going to switch class.  They choose the race and class because it appealed to them.  If they wanted to play a Froglok Ranger or a Ratonga Shadowknight they would have done that from the get-go...Secondly, switching neutral classes, you guys that are against it make it sound like people are going to be bouncing back and forth between classes all over the shop.  I HIGHLY anticipate that the new betrayal quest will involve switching all your faction to the opposing city... and thats no fast process. (I also expect thats one reason why they made the guards attackable), and also it will no doubt get harder the higher your level.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>myount wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>urgatorbait wrote:<div></div><p>Thank Goodness!  If this goes live I can finally change from a Warlock to  Wizard since I have not enjoyed playing her since the combat changes many months ago.  Never wanted to be AoE specialist anyways and now I can counter those changes that were forced upon me in the first place.</p><p>Woot!</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree wholeheartedly on this statement.  I played a warlock back in the day when they were the single target damage.  I loved playing him, then SoE decided to change his entire profession.  I would play him again if i could switch to the class that i started with ~ Single target massive damage.</p><p>I am still on the fence with my Warden though.  Furies are alot better at just about everything a druid has to offer but it will be hard switching. </p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I'm also a Warden looking at the Fury spell lists and seeing a clear advantage in pretty much every line.</p><p>I chose Warden initially because they were substantially better healers and thus more useful in the high-end game. It was similar with Guardians; and they suddenly found Berzerkers 'balanced' to match their strengths with none of their weaknesses.</p><p><strong>It all stems from the horribly flawed concept at the heart of EQ2 that there should be offensive and defensive subclass variants</strong>. Why the hell take a defensive subclass when more offense = more dps = faster killing = more loot and exp? The original answer lay in the defensive classes being vital in the end-game and on large raids because the offensive classes couldn't get the job done. Balance passes 'fixed' this and made all classes practically equal at their main role - and screwed the defensive classes by making them fill the same role whilst simply putting out less damage.</p><p>I see no reason to play a Warden when I'd be perfectly capable of solo healing a group as a Fury while putting out at least 1.5x the dps (and generating way more net group dps through my offensive buffs). Furies also have the best buffs for a main tank group on a raid. I know the grass is always greener on the other side, but it's the fact I can see a clearly flawed <em>intent</em> by the game designers rather than simply a few broken spells (although, for the record, Wardens have no shortage of broken spells).</p><p>It's actually got to the point where unless this betrayal system goes through in the next month or SOE realise their error and rebalance the game (which is pretty [Removed for Content]' unlikely), I'll probably quit the game.</p>