SOE, why do you have to ruin every patch?

[Ashtu]

<div>I was reading through the test patch notes a-c, with great anticipation.</div><div> </div><div>Amazing!</div><div> </div><div>Terrific!</div><div> </div><div>Stupdendous!</div><div> </div><div>.... until I came to this line:</div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div><em>- Any creature that would aggro a player when solo will aggro that player regardless of the level of group members. Creatures that would not aggro a player when solo will not aggro that player regardless of the level of group members.</em></div><div><hr></div><p>I asked myself "Self?  Why would they do this?"  Now, apparently, you are doing this because people were abusing the removal of locked encounters.  Farming trivial nameds with lower level characters, by grouping with lower-level characters, then dropping and killing named mobs after they initiate the fight.  Is this not correct?</p><p>Am I also correct that you took out encounter-locking because you wanted people to have more flexibility to help each other out?  Build community?  All that jazz?</p><p>If so, this change is the antithesis of that.</p><p>First of all, this change will do little to nothing to stop farmers.  All that will need to happen is one of the two farmers will need to have a targettable or group invis.  That includes, oh, about half the classes in this game.  The lower level gets invis, the higher level walks around with no aggro.  So, we're back to square one.</p><p>Up to now, I've been generous in my time helping out lower level characters.  As a 60 I can group with a 45 within the mechanics of the game, and I often do.  However, with this change I am going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time killing grey mobs that offer no experience or reward.  For anybody.  Why would I want to do that?</p><p>The answer is, I won't.  I will be far less inclined to group with people lower level than me.  I don't log into this game to waste my time.  Is that the kind of community building you're shooting for?</p><p>If reducing farming is what you're after here, there is a much better solution.  Lock named enounters.  Just like you do epic ones.  This will be just as effective at reducing farming without being a major headache to everyone else.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SilverSlayer]

<div></div><p>Because people were exploiting named mobs with no danger to themselves. This has already been answered but just like alot of other people your incapable of doing some research before asking a question that has already been answered.</p><p> </p><p>I myself love this change as now I will have a chance at those named mobs because they won't be camped like they are now.</p>

[Ashtu]

<div></div><div></div>And you obviously didn't read my post.  I know why they did this, as is very clear about half way through the post (which you obviously didn't get to), and I also showed why there will still be people farming your named mobs after that (which you obviously didn't get to).<p>Message Edited by Ashtura on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:50 AM</span></p>

[Asp728]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ashtura wrote:<p>Up to now, I've been generous in my time helping out lower level characters.  As a 60 I can group with a 45 within the mechanics of the game, and I often do.  However, with this change I am going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time killing grey mobs that offer no experience or reward.  For anybody.  Why would I want to do that?</p><hr></blockquote>If I am reading this right, then the level 45 person would get exp.  As a level 60 you aren't getting exp anyyway.  Grouping with them to help them level, quest, etc., then they would get the benefit of killing the mobs regardless of if it is grey to you or not.   And if it is not grey to them, it can still drop a chest.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<div></div><p>Uh, apparently they have changed their stance.  On another post, the reason they say they have done this is they felt lower level toons had it too easy to travel through zones when they got an invite by a high level.  To do quests etc...  Apparently, the farming reason is not the reason anymore.</p><p>If they are doing it for the old reason, its a stupid change.  If they are doing it for the new reason, I guess its a good change.</p><p>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I can't keep up with their changing reasons.</p><p> </p>

[Ashtu]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Asp728 wrote:If I am reading this right, then the level 45 person would get exp.  As a level 60 you aren't getting exp anyyway.  Grouping with them to help them level, quest, etc., then they would get the benefit of killing the mobs regardless of if it is grey to you or not.   And if it is not grey to them, it can still drop a chest.<hr></blockquote>Where does it say that the lower level will be getting experience?  All I'm seeing in the patch notes is that they will be getting aggro, much like how red-outlined grey mobs work. And they'll be dropping chests?  What??  This will be encouraging farming even more!<p>Message Edited by Ashtura on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:10 AM</span></p>

[Obadiah]

<div></div><p>Yeah, farming was only part of the reason according to Gallenite:</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=43907#M43907" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=43907#M43907</a></p><p>Level 45 grouped with a 60 isn't going to get worthwhile XP anyway.</p><p>This change won't affect farming in any way, but hopefully what he alludes to in the above post will:</p><div>"As far as farming goes, there are further changes coming to loot credit assignment and treasure chances that are intended to more directly address the farming problem. "</div><div> </div><div>This topic is probably moot until we see what those changes are. Hopefully that's SOON. :smileyhappy:</div><p> </p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SilverSlayer wrote:<p>I myself love this change as now I will have a chance at those named mobs because they won't be camped like they are now.</p><hr></blockquote><div>This change will stop few, if any, camps.  This is not the primary method named farmers use.  When they are farming the mob, the higher level and the lower level are <strong>NOT</strong> grouped.</div><div> </div><div>But I do wonder about one thing on this change.  If, say, a group has a high of level 44, and a low of level 38, and the 38 gets aggro from a named 28.  The 28 would be gray to the 44, but green tot he 38.  Does this change mean that 28 will now drop loot?  Other than the fact that I think this whole change is BS, if the 28 is green to the 38, and it's killed, it <strong>SHOULD</strong> drop loot and give XP (at least to anything it's green to). </div><div> </div><div>If it <strong>DOES</strong> drop loot, then this change is actually going to make farming easier than before. </div><div> </div><div>If it doesn't drop loot, than having pointless aggro (no XP, no loot) is nothing but a thorn in the side of every single adventurer in the game. </div><div> </div><div>It will discourage parties of differing levels, due to no one in the group wanting to fight encounters that give no XP.  In some zones, this won't matter, but in some it will.</div><div>There's not much good that can come of this change, as is.  But lots of bad.</div>

[Geekyone]

<div>I agree with Ash...his 1st post and his 2nd.</div>

[su]

<div></div><p>I feel you on this my rl freind cant play as much or lv as fast cuz hes dail up and hes 10 lv behind me..but WHY do people always go the lock encounter routs...I mean cant i still camp a named and killled it even if it locks i realy dont see how locked mobs will stop farming</p><p>Look in this game u need coin to get good stuff gear falbes food drinks ect.. i dont like spending a hour to make 1 thing crafting and have to wait 2 weeks to a year for it to sell..and with 90% of the server lv 60 crafters there so many underbiding each other to get the first sell its realy point less to me..</p><p>EQoa all i had to do was go to a greyed out dougen for money cuz they droped rares and coin on that game even greyed out ..I would not farm a greyedout dougen if i seen people xping there i would move on to the many other dougens on that game.</p><p>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is a instacne for <private dougen for if i cant go there to make money after it greys out>WOW ff11 and eqoa u could still make coin on greyed out mobs and a instance dougen would not bother anyone xping or someone farming they would have there own private dougen.</p><p>I know u farmer haters are gonna flame me and u people that call somebody a bot just cuz they want to make coin the old school way and not be force to craft wich is so danm boring i want to pull out my hair and bite off all my finger nails its so freaking boring!</p><p> </p><p>I work for a liveing in rl and i play a fantasy game to get away from my real life stress why should i feel like im working a job to play a game..i mean i pay for the game and all the exspation and play soe many titles sure i tryed WOW but who didnt ? point is WoW didnt last long everything reminded me of eqoa ff or daoc and few other mmos..so i found myself going to eq2 cuz every mmoso ut there copies from the granddaddy of mmos might as well play the king of mmos..</p><p>I see all these people with 50 -200 plat all geared up and i barley can keep 8 plat do to food drinks and other gear a paladin needs to withstand the uber mobs attacks.</p><p>WHY not make the instacne dougens only greyoutedm obs drop rares and good rares im not talking about the spiltpaw junk lol though the vender money is better then nothing wich is what u get now even if u do  quests for money it takes a danm week to do a qeust or quests lines to get a peace of gear barly worth 8 gold or less.people that work half the day dont want this...and they real worker that work should feel me on this</p><p>If u dont then your just a kid trying to play grown up! NO man or girl that are 20+ that works  6-12 hours a day or every other day wants to  come home to play there favorte game titles to be punished like a 2 year old geting time out..</p>

[Giallolas]

<div></div><p>I think the change is good.  Helping a 45 do what...wait, farm?  The biggest reason they allowed us to gray out zones they said in another post.  It was to help the lower toons get shards.  Now that there are no shards, the only thing graying out does now is for travel purposes.  This removes features such as group invis from classes that have that ability.  Now they are returned to some level of importance.</p><p>In this game, I've noticed that if there is a rule made and people have found a way to exploit it...they feel it turns into a right or privilige that then becomes inherent to good and proper play.  When that's corrected and placed back into the realms of reality, you'd think they were taking away levels or something.</p><p>Once you take out the desire for agro-less travel and farming, I can't see another reason why graying out a zone for a lowbie helps them.  They gain no loot, no exp, no quest credit.  This is the only change in a while that actually increases the difficulty of the game just a bit.  Sounds like a good thing to me.</p><p>Keep up the good work SoE,</p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div>sule wrote:</div><div> </div><div>I mean cant i still camp a named and killled it even if it locks i realy dont see how locked mobs will stop farming</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>Because you have no idea how named farming is done.</div><div> </div><div>It is done by having 2 people (or more, but 2 is essential).  One person, the mob cons non-gray to them (be it green, blue, white, yellow, orange or red, it doesn't matter a whole lot, but orange and red might be bad).  The other person, the mob cons gray to (meaning it's very easy for them to kill it).</div><div> </div><div>These two people are ungrouped.</div><div> </div><div>The lower level person attacks it first.  It now has the encounter.</div><div> </div><div>The higher level person then proceeds to smack the mob dead, very quickly.  But because the lower level person initiated the encounter, the mob drops loot and gives that lower level person XP.  If it's a named, especially in Ruins of Varsoon or Runnyeye Citadel, it stands a very good chance of dropping a Master chest.  So duos do this continually on some servers.</div><div> </div><div>Locking the encounter means that once the lower level person starts the encounter, the higher level can't help.  Thus, either the lower level kills it on his own (thus deserving the XP and loot), or he dies.  Locking the encounter would mean that to get the drop, you'd likely need a group (or at least more than one) to get the drop.  And if you are able to kill something that doesn't con gray to you, you deserve the rewards gotten from it.</div><div> </div><div>Locking the encounter won't stop farming 100%, but it will stop abusive farming (level 60's killing a level 36 mob after a level 40 starts the encounter).  And abusive farming is what people are complaining about, and what Gallenite said they want to be stopped (and what Blackguard initially said the new change on Test would stop, though it won't at all).</div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sule wrote:<div></div><p>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is a instacne for WOW ff11 and eqoa u could still make coin on greyed out mobs and a instance dougen would not bother anyone xping or someone farming they would have there own private dougen.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, and have you seen what the econmy is like in WoW these days?

[su]

<div></div><p>OH,i been playing mmos for 5 years i have done my fair share of name camping.i have high lv toon on eq2 eqoa wow ff11 i have 3 high lv toons daoc another high lv toon..pso i had a lv 100 but that game realy dont count for names since its not like other mmos...i spent months on eqoa waiting for dragon in box caynos to spawn to get pos port for the wizards  in my guild...</p><p>You dont no me so how can u say i dont know about camping names ..if the mobs still green to me i have the right to kill it just as if the mob was yellow  or white..even if its greyedout i shouldh ave the right to kill it if it argoes me cuz my rl freind is in my group and it attacks us ..what am i sapose to let my lower lv friend die cuz u anti farmer get ur panties in a knot..BEleave me if the danm mob attacks me greyout or not no drops im still gonna kill the danm thing to porve a point..what am i sapose to bow down to the weaker mob just cuz its greyedout..I think not!</p><p>If they attack me or my freinds greyouted out or not im going to kill it thus this will not stop farming poeple will be forced to kill the greyouts now ..just trying to get to a place where there still greens to make a little coin to get by..</p><p>I live in america where i have the choice to make money how i like if i dont like the job i just quit and get a difrent one ..point is there forceing people to craft thus making me feel like a slave!</p>

[Delete_]

<div></div><div>Ohhhhh.. I get it now!</div><div> </div><div>The whole farming explanation was just a scapegoat to fool those stupid enough to believe this would stop farming!</div><div> </div><div>The real intention was just to add what will assuredly be a roundly despised timesink.  And that's ALL this will be... a timesink.  Mark my words.  Nothing is going to be "stopped" here.</div>

[Junkisfunk]

<div></div><p></p><hr>Ashtura wrote:<blockquote><p>First of all, this change will do little to nothing to stop farmers.  All that will need to happen is one of the two farmers will need to have a targettable or group invis.  That includes, oh, about half the classes in this game.  The lower level gets invis, the higher level walks around with no aggro.  So, we're back to square one.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Blackguard addressed this. He said..</p><p>An additional note: If you con grey to a mob, it will always see through stealth and invisibility (as they currently do). Also, being group-stealth or invisd by a high level player will not change that behavior, and mobs with see-stealth and see-invis will still see through it as normal. This should make it difficult to simply stealth over to a named creature (or certainly of the same difficulty that a group of the appropriate level will experience).</p><p>Junk</p>

[Delete_]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Junkisfunk wrote:<div></div><p></p><blockquote> </blockquote><p> </p><p>Blackguard addressed this. He said..</p><p>An additional note: If you con grey to a mob, it will always see through stealth and invisibility (as they currently do). Also, being group-stealth or invisd by a high level player will not change that behavior, and mobs with see-stealth and see-invis will still see through it as normal. This should make it difficult to simply stealth over to a named creature (or certainly of the same difficulty that a group of the appropriate level will experience).</p><p>Junk</p><hr></blockquote>The lower farmer is typically not grey to the mobs in the zone.  In fact, he is appropriately leveled for the zone.  Its the higher farmer that isn't.  Named typically see invis, true.  But all they need to do is GET to the named.

[BrickyardRac]

<div>The thing about no group invis, whatever, is that, if you know where you're going, it's VERY easy to get to any spot in Runnyeye, solo, even if the whole zone is green/blue.  Just keep a running, and eventually things will give up chasing you.  If the level 60 (or whatever level damage dealer the low level is using to kill his encounters) is parked at the named spot, just run to him, and you'll get there if you have half a clue how to get there.  Once there, the high level just kills all those that remain of the train rather quickly.</div><div> </div><div>Low levels being <strong>grouped</strong> with high levels is a very minimal part of named farming.  And zero part of the actual kill of the named.</div>

[PurrceyPurespir]

<div>Back when DoF was in beta we tested some of these changes. At first I could tag a mob and drag it to the gurads to kil. I got full exp, faction hits, and chest drops. At some point they changed it so that you had to do 51% dam or more to get exp and drops. I guess I was never aware this went away.</div><div> </div><div>Adding back that you must do 51% dam would help curb the farming. It would still be possible but the lower toon would have to live long enough to do half the damage to a named mob. I can see where a high level taunter could still hold the attention, but that could be balanced also.</div>

[Kaan]

<div></div><p>God this is stupid.</p><p>Yea, farming sucks....no you don't NEED two people to farm a name...and for the most part...you just need to get on with your life.  We all are entitled to have fun in this game, yea...someone steals your kill, its no fun for you but they are having fun...you complain get that stopped, now its no fun for them but it is for you.  Everyone is right and everyone is wrong depending on the side of the spectrum you are on.</p><p>First off...I farm, from time to time...do I farm a greyed out zone...NOPE.  I go into an area, with a mob that drops something good...that still cons to me and I kill it...over and over.  A group comes in, says they need it...I stand back, let them have it.  And for those that want to say this isn't farming...you're [Removed for Content], you classify a term that is a made up term to begin with and think you are the all knowing of the subject.  Once I get what I want or the mob greys to me..I leave it alone.  I don't go back and farm them anymore...and I SURELY don't need too people to do it with either.  If you know the working of farming inside and out, like I've heard some on here state...then you have no life and need to get a job like the one guy was speking of. </p><p>I work, also, 8+ hrs per day and I don't play a game that makes me feel like I'm working another job.  But you know, I guess I have it easy, I'm on the lavastorm server and everyone on there are good people.  I don't ever see any of the issues that people talk about with farming and kill stealing and what not; yea sure we have our share of punks and childish people...doesn't every server, but for the most part, Lavastorm is a great server to play on.  Real laid back, with a real good community.</p><p>As far as the proposed change, it will help elliminate farming, no it won't stop it and it won't keep it from happening (Once again, who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) what it will do is slow those down thats trying to get to the named.  And if the group wants to get smart and not group till they get to the end, or the lower level pulls and then the higher level kills...well...then the lower level is going to have to make it there alive, ne?  And if they get there and grab the mob right out from under you...GREAT!  Now you know what to do to keep them from doing that next.  Send the people a tell and tell them..."pardon me, but we need this kill for a quest, do you mind letting my group kill it right quick before you farm it?"  No harm in asking or trying, whats the most they can do?  Laugh at you and say no.  Then, you play the game with them...when they come up...You pull the mob so fast that they don't know wha thappened...stand back...point...and laugh.</p><p>You're not going to escape it, you're not going to get rid of it...their will be dicks in the game that will try to screw you over.  The best thing to do is this:  "Eh, its a game, I'm here to have fun, not stress over it"  Then, give a big ol' "LEEEEEERRRROOOOOY JEEEEENKINS" and run in the room.  I think we all can take a point from good ol' Leroy Jenkins and play the game for fun.</p><p>pft...atleast I've got chicken!</p><p>Enjoy your gaming experience...and stop treating it like realife or a freaking job.</p>

[Goofinon]

<div></div><p>Yeah wonderful decision here.  Some people are farming?  GREAT!  Let's make everything MORE painful to EVERYONE!!</p><p> </p><p>I can see it now.  Group of 50s going to do DFC has one open spot.  Old:  45?  sure!  love to help you!  New:  45?  NO WAY!</p><p> </p><p>Insert your zone of choice there.  This change discourages grouping with anyone below your level.  Way to go SOE!</p>

[retro_guy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>PurrceyPurespirit wrote:<div>Back when DoF was in beta we tested some of these changes. At first I could tag a mob and drag it to the gurads to kil. I got full exp, faction hits, and chest drops. At some point they changed it so that you had to do 51% dam or more to get exp and drops. I guess I was never aware this went away.</div><div> </div><div>Adding back that you must do 51% dam would help curb the farming. It would still be possible but the lower toon would have to live long enough to do half the damage to a named mob. I can see where a high level taunter could still hold the attention, but that could be balanced also.</div><hr></blockquote>I still think that this is the best fix, if soneone outside the group does more than 50% damage then the "no loot" icons appear and it's the same as if the mob was shouted off.I know others will say that you can just put healers outside the group, but honestly if a low lever CAN kill a mob, even with high level healers help, they deserve the loot IMO.</span></div>

[Delete_]

<div></div><p>I have lost almost any faith that the developers have any foresight.  That's kind of self-evident when you have to do a complete combat-revamp.</p><p>Most changes to problems involve the knee-jerk, sledgehammer approach.</p><p>I can only hope that they have the sense to keep this where it belongs... on test.  Not on live.</p>

[Ashtu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><p>I think the change is good.  Helping a 45 do what...wait, farm? </p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, I see.  So helping a guildie finish an HQ is now "farming."  Silly me.  Call the the exploit police, there are guilds "farming" status.  Helping out people that are within range of getting experience and quest updates.  We must put a stop to that. </p><p>/gasp</p><p><img src="http://www.homeopathyhome.com/ultimate/rolleyes.gif">Oh wait, it won't stop it, it will just make it highly annoying.  Like a bunch of swarming gnats.  How fun.</p>

[crewguy72]

<div></div><p>I think these threads are funny, you see ALOT of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing but you don't see any answers to the problem. Ok so you think this sucks,... so if it was your company how would you fix it?</p><p>Does SOE just stand by and let it get out of hand before they do anything at all?</p><p> </p><p>I can see it now, SOE does nothing at all and you guys cant get any chests because all the Named are camped by people monopolizing the system.</p><p>Yeah, i think you would complain more then. (if thats possible)</p><p> </p><p>SOE has come along way and are doing much better on EQ2- cut them some slack.</p><p>Don't just complain without giving suggestions to fix the issues.</p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kaanha wrote:<div></div><p>God this is stupid.</p><p>First off...I farm, from time to time...do I farm a greyed out zone...NOPE.  I go into an area, with a mob that drops something good...that still cons to me and I kill it...over and over.  A group comes in, says they need it...I stand back, let them have it.  And for those that want to say this isn't farming...you're [Removed for Content], you classify a term that is a made up term to begin with and think you are the all knowing of the subject. </p><hr></blockquote><div>I think some people are confusing the topic.  The type of farming that EQ 2 wants to stop isn't what you're talking about, it's this:</div><div> </div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Red547 wrote:I figure that if someone makes it to 60 they can take a few short cuts with alts, I know I've bought a couple of Master spells for mine that they couldn't afford on their own.  So to take it further, If someone wants to take short cuts to the point of adding a whole new account and probably another computer, Then god bless you, you've sacrificed your real life so you can cheat a game and you deserve that shiny new imaginary necklace.  <hr></blockquote><p>For the most part, I agree with you.  If that's what was happening, fantastic.  If that's all it was, we wouldn't be having to make further changes, because the spawns wouldn't be monopolized this way 24/7.  People who are truly just helping/playing through on their alts like that tend to get what they come for, are frequently helpful along the way, then move along when they're done.</p><p>The problem is the people who monopolize the area in shifts, 24/7 for (most likely) the eventual EULA violating purposes that this kind of farming is aimed at.</p><p>Depending on the week, we ban anywhere from 50 to hundreds.  We already hit them from that angle.  If we need to hit them from this angle as well, which we do, that's exactly what will happen.</p><p>Hope that makes sense.  I don't want anyone to think that this is "The War On Alts."  Far from it.</p><hr></blockquote><div>Not every farmer is nice.  Not every farmer playes "by the rules".  Not every farmer does it occasionally.  Some camp an area for days, and don't let others ever have a chance.</div><div> </div><div>And this change will do nothing to stop it.</div>

[Ashtu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>crewguy72 wrote:<div></div><p>I think these threads are funny, you see ALOT of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing but you don't see any answers to the problem. Ok so you think this sucks,... so if it was your company how would you fix it?</p><hr></blockquote>Exactly as I said in the last line of my first frelling post.  Why bother posting suggestions if you don't bother to read em?