Is it *REALLY* truely necessary to throw out the early archetype classes and Citizenship quests?

[Cusashorn]

<div>I realize this is too late to mention, but I've been wondering something about it.</div><div> </div><div>Since players are gonna choose thier own subclass at the start, I must wonder if it's really truely necissary to remove the old Tutorial boat, the Isle of Refuge, and the ability to choose if you want to be a fighter, mage, scout, or priest, and then advance through your chosen class and then subclass.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>The developers said that they're making this change because they quickly found out that players adapted to thier chosen class really quickly, instead of using the archetype system to keep the options open so they can sample some of the other classes play styles.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Well, is it really necissary to remove that altogether? what if some players might like progressing through instead of just choosing the final subclass?</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Why not let players create thier character, and be allowed to choose if they want to start off as a Commoner and go to the Isle of Refuge, or choose thier final subclass and go to the Isle of the Overlord or Queen's Isle?</div><div> </div><div>I don't think there would be any harm in that, and it would still allow players to make good use of all the voice acting that they put the time and effort into when the game first started. Not to mention all the NPC's who help you choose your class like Sergant-At-Arms Dagorel in South Qeynos for anyone wanting to become a Warrior, Crusader, or Brawler.</div><div> </div><div>From a roleplay point, they're trying to shift focus from "Rescuing Refugees" to "Heros returning from the lands long ago" and stuff.</div><div> </div><div>Why not still let Freeport and Qeynos continue to rescue refugees anyway? They can do the citizenship quests just like it is now, while any of those "Returning Heroes" will be given citizenship as they leave the island.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Just my 2 cents. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[PorkCho]

<div></div><div></div><div>Why should i have to wait 20 levels to play the class i wanted to play. Really if you cannot figure out your class in 3-4 levels there is something wrong and maybe you should not be playing these types of games.  The old boat was boring and unnecessary. The new way of doing things is exciting and fun filled.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Edited: Because im   <font size="2">r e t a r d e d</font>   and was making accusations that were not totally true.</div><p>Message Edited by PorkChop1 on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:49 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by PorkChop1 on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p>

[Lader]

<div>the going right into the game with your subclass already selected may be what is right for some players (myself included) but with cusashorn's idea you would be able to choose which route is the best for you. You arent limited in being a hero or a refugee, you could try both scenarios out.</div>

[Whizbang]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>PorkChop1 wrote:<div>Why should i have to wait 20 levels to play the class i wanted to play. Really if you cannot figure out your class in 3-4 levels there is something wrong and maybe you should not be playing these types of games.  The old boat was boring and unnecessary. The new way of doing things is exciting and fun filled.</div><div> </div><div>They are taking the monotony out of the game and making it tons more fun. I have been playing since release and i can honestly say the new changes ARE more fun and i agree with the developers in that this is the way the game should go.</div><div> </div><div>I cannot believe people are complaining about this, are you all always negative? Apparently anything they, the develoers, do you will find something to complain about and say that it should not be done.</div><hr></blockquote>He's not saying that they should stop the changes on Test, but should allow people to have an option for one or the other, not be forced into just one or the other.  Some people learn faster than others, some slower. </div><div> </div><div>As for taking the monotony out of the game, for you yes, but for another, maybe-maybe not.  Your idea of fun isn't necessarily the next person's.  People should have a choice, and i agree with the OP.</div><div> </div><div>He wasn't complaining, just offering an idea to the Devs.  You are the one that is putting forth snide remarks and branding others with labels.  Re-read the OP and see what he is explaining.</div><p>Message Edited by JubatheMighty on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:44 AM</span></p>

[Eileithia]

<div></div><p>This is all total speculation.. But.. the ability to chose your class right out of the gate does a couple things..</p><p>1.. Makes it so that you know what you're getting your self into before you ding 30.. (30 being the time you actually have the stuff for YOUR class.. and not the Generic architypes etc..)</p><p>2.. Gives them the possibility "Down the road" to add a class without messing with 6 other classes.. Not that this will happen in the near future, but now the option is there.. (beastloards anyone? j/k)</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Saetyr]

<div></div>I personally found the archtype, class, subclass system fun and something "new".  You are right that in 3-4 lvls you know what you are going to be, but being able to experience a little of the other classes sometimes makes you want to try something else.  I know from at least 2 of my alts, what i was going to be turned out to be another choice after having played the toon for a while.  EQ2 is something new and should not be just "Everquest too". 

[Animox]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<div></div><p>This is all total speculation.. But.. the ability to chose your class right out of the gate does a couple things..</p><p>1.. Makes it so that you know what you're getting your self into before you ding 30.. (30 being the time you actually have the stuff for YOUR class.. and not the Generic architypes etc..)</p><p><font color="#ffff00">2..</font><font color="#ffff00"> Gives them the possibility "Down the road" to add a class without messing with 6 other classes.. Not that this will happen in the near future, but now the option is there.. (beastloards anyone? j/k)</font></p><p> </p><p> </p><hr>Good idea! I had not seen this posted anywhere yet.  It does bode well for the future.  New races and classes can be implemented much easier now--no longer necessary to have everything in threes. (No offence to the Ramans<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</blockquote><p>Message Edited by Animox on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:13 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>There's some logistical nightmares with having both systems at once. Recipe books would have to have a lot more spell options, teh loot tables would have to be even bigger to accomodate the archetype skills as well, meaning it'd be harder to get those low-level adepts. People on the archetype system had artifical level caps put on them that those not in the archetype system don't have. the IoR caps you at six, the new islands cap at 10 because at that point everythign grays out, no wasted experience. The archetype system would require a different method of citizenship. Innkeepers now give you some house items and give a simple quest for your first house rather than running around town because of a caretaker/slumlord. The adventure zones have changed so the citizenship tasks would have to be altered due to generally higher level mobs. THe racial mentors give the 'welcome to...' book now instead of the citizenship task.</p><p>As for the class/subclass questgivers they're going to be there (they were mostly removed for a while but probably so they could adjust the quests) but are now optional quests you can do to see how the other classes in your archetype play (well those from your city). The rewards have been adjust as well.</p><p>While the archetype system had some good points overall it was considered a 'killing point' for many casual players, especially due to the level capping at 6, 9, and 19, plus as already mentioned the fact that you had to get to level 30 before you found out if you liked a class. I think if you play through the changes you'll see that while its different its more enjoyable and immersive. Now instead of focusing on your eventual class the low levels are focused on immersing you into the state of the world, the conflict between Qeynos and Freeport, and the role and goals of your chosen race. Your class is now your job choice in how you get by int he world but not the reason you are in the world.</p>

[Maroger]

<div>Why not give the players an option at say Level 10 to switch to a new class?</div>

[Happyfunba]

<div>The archetype system was fun the very first time I played, but I think that was more specifically in relation to the fun I had just getting to play EQ2 in general. In other words, it was the game, not the system.</div><div> </div><div>While there's nothing wrong with the archetype system per se, I think as a whole it became a turn-off not only for newer players but particularly for returning or re-rolling players. Personally, I'd have tried out several other classes already by now if I didn't have to go thru the first 20 levels (and really as the previous poster said, the first 30 levels) just to see what that end-class is truly like. As it is, I lucked out by finding a class I thuroughly enjoyed playing on my first selection otherwise I may have stopped playing altogether which is what I know several other players did. But even so, it was somewhat dissappointing to know I was the exact same character as a Monk or Paladin until level 10, and continued to be the exact same character as a Guardian until level 20. After going thru that, the thought of perhaps trying out a different kind of fighter with an Alt is much less appealling when you know the first 10 levels for certain will be identical to what you've already done before and maybe even the first 20.</div><div> </div><div>I think the new Isle works out incredibly well also. It merges the old boat-ride with the old Isle and combines the learning process into a single location where characters are immediately placed into the game world among other players. I have to think this is a good thing as the first 10 to 20 minutes of gameplay can really set a person's attitude toward the rest of their experience. Again, that's not to say the boat wasn't fun (the first time at least) but I don't believe it was the best first-impression the game could make.</div>

[Happyfunba]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div>Why not give the players an option at say Level 10 to switch to a new class?</div><hr></blockquote><p>I suppose they could, but really now with the revamp even a non-seasoned player can reach level 10 in 2 hours or less without issue. The game moves very fast. And too, a player not finding their class to be very fun probably won't even need to reach level 10 before deciding to make a switch.</p><p>When it gets right down to it, the time investment it takes to decide whether or not you will like a character is really not much different. To make a wholesale switch at level 10 would probably still take a player an hour or so of gaming to get any kind of true feel for their new character. Potentially you could argue it would take even more time than simply progressing a new character from level 1.</p><p>Lastly, equipment would become an issue as well. The items you had gained previously may not work for the character you select next. And having the game auto-remove old equipment with generic replacements just seems goofy.</p>

[Inchid]

<div></div><p>If you ask me the old sys was a long borring grind. Like it has been said why would you want to wait till you are lvl 30 before you really know what your toon is about. With the new sys you can test it out and del the toon if you do not like it. The ability to spend no more then a few hours trying out a class sure beats weeks of game play to find out that class is not for you. Now as far as the boat ride and noob island. Well the boat ride was fun the very 1st time i played. Afer that i would get mad at myself for forgeting to check the box to bypass it. And the noob island of old really sucked IMHO and the new one even if a lil buggy at the moment is far better.</p><p> </p><p>Take a necro and a Conj. 2 totaly different classes but they share the same spells till lvl 20? that is not right. new sys beats it.</p>

[Magu]

It's a bad idea - you're using the same argument as people who wanted "old ruleset" servers when the revamp was coming.It would take too much work to maintain 2 different versions, so the better one has to win out.<div></div>

[MadLordOfMilk]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Saetyr wrote:<div></div><b>I personally found the archtype, class, subclass system fun and something "new".</b>  You are right that in 3-4 lvls you know what you are going to be, but being able to experience a little of the other classes sometimes makes you want to try something else.  I know from at least 2 of my alts, what i was going to be turned out to be another choice after having played the toon for a while.  EQ2 is something new and should not be just "Everquest too". <hr></blockquote>Old concept in a lot of free MMOs actually <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> Not laid out exactly the same, but close enough (except in a few of them, you could actually switch the main class while messing with a new char).</span></div>

[Cusashorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:It's a bad idea - you're using the same argument as people who wanted "old ruleset" servers when the revamp was coming.It would take too much work to maintain 2 different versions, so the better one has to win out.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Actually I'm not. Those who wanted Old ruleset servers were  asking for complete avoidance of the new ones.</p><p>My idea is offering for both to co-exist and let the player choose for himself if he wants to just be the class or if he wants to roleplay and progress.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I admit, I hadn't thought about the spells and loot tables and other problems like that..</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.</p>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cusashorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The tradeoff is repeatability. You might like getting a more general feel for a kind of character you don't usually play, but there are those altaholic types who prefer running through every class as uniquely as possible. By making classes distinct from the get-go along with new race-specific quest lines, starting an Erudite wizard is going to feel a lot different than starting an iksar bard. Under the old system, it wasn't all that unique, aside from the archetype quests on the island.</P> <P>Leaving archetypes and classes in as playable options would be confusing to explain and cumbersome for loot and itemization, as others mentioned.</P>

[AratornCalahn]

I like how this has also removed all thos artifical level limits (most I know of anyway). really nice feeling to "do what you want" in a way.

[Aethn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Is it *REALLY* truely necessary to throw out the early archetype classes and Citizenship quests?  </div><hr></blockquote>Yes.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div><p>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote><p>The tradeoff is repeatability. You might like getting a more general feel for a kind of character you don't usually play, but there are those altaholic types who prefer running through every class as uniquely as possible. By making classes distinct from the get-go along with new race-specific quest lines, starting an Erudite wizard is going to feel a lot different than starting an iksar bard. Under the old system, it wasn't all that unique, aside from the archetype quests on the island.</p><p>Leaving archetypes and classes in as playable options would be confusing to explain and cumbersome for loot and itemization, as others mentioned.</p><hr></blockquote>Wouldn't it better, financially, if nothing else, to cater to the casual player who may not have the time to try out more than 3 or 4 characters? You're going to get subscription fees from altaholics regardless of whether they have 4 archetypes or 24 classes to choose from when they roll their toon of the week. I'm just surprised this whole endeavor had a significant (or any, I guess) RoI on it.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div><p>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote><p>The tradeoff is repeatability. You might like getting a more general feel for a kind of character you don't usually play, but there are those altaholic types who prefer running through every class as uniquely as possible. By making classes distinct from the get-go along with new race-specific quest lines, starting an Erudite wizard is going to feel a lot different than starting an iksar bard. Under the old system, it wasn't all that unique, aside from the archetype quests on the island.</p><p>Leaving archetypes and classes in as playable options would be confusing to explain and cumbersome for loot and itemization, as others mentioned.</p><hr></blockquote>Wouldn't it better, financially, if nothing else, to cater to the casual player who may not have the time to try out more than 3 or 4 characters? You're going to get subscription fees from altaholics regardless of whether they have 4 archetypes or 24 classes to choose from when they roll their toon of the week. I'm just surprised this whole endeavor had a significant (or any, I guess) RoI on it.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>The casual player plays alts too.   How often do you get the class you love on the first pick?   Something else you might not be considering is you don't get a real feel for a class until what?  Level 25 ?  This reduced that drastically. </p><p>The low end content they revised and added to was in dire need of it.  I was suprised at anybody they took the time to do all this stuff but I couldn't be happier it's going in.</p><p> </p>

[iceriven2]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div><p>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote><p>The tradeoff is repeatability. You might like getting a more general feel for a kind of character you don't usually play, but there are those altaholic types who prefer running through every class as uniquely as possible. By making classes distinct from the get-go along with new race-specific quest lines, starting an Erudite wizard is going to feel a lot different than starting an iksar bard. Under the old system, it wasn't all that unique, aside from the archetype quests on the island.</p><p>Leaving archetypes and classes in as playable options would be confusing to explain and cumbersome for loot and itemization, as others mentioned.</p><hr></blockquote>Wouldn't it better, financially, if nothing else, to cater to the casual player who may not have the time to try out more than 3 or 4 characters? You're going to get subscription fees from altaholics regardless of whether they have 4 archetypes or 24 classes to choose from when they roll their toon of the week. I'm just surprised this whole endeavor had a significant (or any, I guess) RoI on it.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This change is being catered for the casuel player.  In the old archtype system it took around 30 lvls to get an idea on how a classplays.  An example of this is a necro. 1-20 summoner spells are conj heavy.  Not till 20 do u actual get  a necro type spell.  So if a casual player wanted to see how a necro play he needs to lvl him to 30.  Thats not very casual friendly in my eyes.  Now that same casual player can play a necro to lvl 10 and get a good idea on how the class plays.  In my eyes spending only a day to get to 10 instead of a few weeks to get 30 is more casual friendly.<p>Message Edited by iceriven2 on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 AM</span></p>

[Rowah]

<div></div><div>Under the Old system I always felt like I never "got" to be a Monk until almost lvl 30, maybe even into your mid 30's.</div><div> </div><div>Not only that, but you didnt get any feel for the other options before 20.  Examples?  Take a Beserker, is he just a tank?  You dont hardly get a feel for the frenzy or abilities of a Beserker pre 20.  The same goes for a Monk and Shadow Knight.</div><div> </div><div>Shoot all the classes were that way!  How Many Rangers out there felt like a Ranger pre 20?  Its very frustrating to think you want to play a class and lvl them to 30 only find that the "style" you wanted was more of another type.  In my eyes the new system shows you very early how a class plays.</div><div> </div><div>Example?  NEcro vs Summoner.  Besides the fact they are FP/Qeynos or "good vs evil", lets look at just a variation in style.  The summoner helps his groups with a bit more dmg, while the Necro pets can add group healing.  The summoner I think heals his pet with Mana, while the Necro has to use his health!  To compensate the necro gets a high dmg single target to heal himself!  The Necro also gains the ability to heal others in his group with his health.  In my eyes those two classes play vastly different once you get those abilities.  Currently though, the Necro's Heal pet is the Summoners until lvl 28!!!!  He just simply heals his pet...  No using his health to heal his pet.  On the test Server, you almost begin.... with a heal pet that drains your life!  Granted I think they should also give you that... Lifetap a bit earlier(hint hint), but now even at lvl 8 you "feel" like a necro!</div><div> </div><div>Its just awesome!</div>

[einar4]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cusashorn wrote:<div></div><p>But still. All this time I've been playing, I have *NEVER ONCE* played a scout or priest class. Now I don't have any intention to play as one anytime in the near future, but if by some reason I suddenly do, it would be nice to start out as a priest or scout so I can feel out how all of them play at the most basic sense, instead of just finding out how ONE plays.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote><p>The tradeoff is repeatability. You might like getting a more general feel for a kind of character you don't usually play, but there are those altaholic types who prefer running through every class as uniquely as possible. By making classes distinct from the get-go along with new race-specific quest lines, starting an Erudite wizard is going to feel a lot different than starting an iksar bard. Under the old system, it wasn't all that unique, aside from the archetype quests on the island.</p><p>Leaving archetypes and classes in as playable options would be confusing to explain and cumbersome for loot and itemization, as others mentioned.</p><hr></blockquote>Wouldn't it better, financially, if nothing else, to cater to the casual player who may not have the time to try out more than 3 or 4 characters? You're going to get subscription fees from altaholics regardless of whether they have 4 archetypes or 24 classes to choose from when they roll their toon of the week. I'm just surprised this whole endeavor had a significant (or any, I guess) RoI on it.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> Actually the casual players tend to play alts more.  Even with casual play, the characters level up, and beyond a certain level the game is setup to be raid and large group friendly only.  When a couple is playing, they find that at high levels the only interesting dungeons are mostly ^^^ heroics (aside from yardtrash: bats, rats, spiders, and snakes), and that means (according to Moorgard) 3 players.  Since 3 does not equal 2 last I checked, that means the people that play as couples have to stop leveling that set of chars and try for another.</p><p> Its a shame since nothing is being added, or has been since august, to broaden the play for the small groups at lower levels.  I won't say anything about the level 50 loot farms that the mid level dungeons were transformed into.</p><p> So yes, the casual non-raid uber group players can appreciate this change too, at least until the unchanging world of the level 1-40 game becomes intolerably dull, but by then I'm sure there will be another game to switch to for the couples and the casual players.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by einar438 on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:21 AM</span></p>

[Priestbane]

<div></div><div></div><p>After playing on test, I have to admit I agree.  I still don't *like* losing the archetype system, in that I prefer a graduation system.  I like the minor status associated with getting a class, and I *really* like how subclasses of any archetype can fulfill the archetypical role, and I think that value is going to be lost under the new system.  But having PLAYED under the new system, I couldn't be happier with the implementation of it... they really are doing a good job at it.</p><p>Does the loss of archetypical association mean that itemization and balance will also lose archetypical association, in the future?  Are monks/bruisers gonna stop being tanks?  Are bards gonna stop being scouts?  Are enchanters going to stop bein mages?  I would hate to learn that that was going to be the case.</p><p> </p><p>EDIT:  P.S., where's my forum avatar?  It seems like they removed one of the graphics...</p><p>Message Edited by Godstalk on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:37 AM</span></p>

[Trepan]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Godstalk wrote:<p>After playing on test, I have to admit I agree.  I still don't *like* losing the archetype system, in that I prefer a graduation system.  I like the minor status associated with getting a class, and I *really* like how subclasses of any archetype can fulfill the archetypical role, and I think that value is going to be lost under the new system.  But having PLAYED under the new system, I couldn't be happier with the implementation of it... they really are doing a good job at it.</p><p>EDIT:  P.S., where's my forum avatar?  It seems like they removed one of the graphics...</p><hr></blockquote>Gnome icons got nerfed  <span>:smileytongue:</span>Here's an idea that'd grant the same "Graduation" feeling, but not be something that holds you back from levelling.Rank prefixes for classnames.  </span><span>First is automatic, second two would require quest completion to move to the next rank title.    These quests could be something EASILY accomplished (like a single encounter) in under 3 minutes, if you're of an appropriate level. For example:</span><span>Apprentice  Necromancer    <-- granted upon creationJourneyman Necromancer  <-- Must kill a solo encounter of lvl 7 mobs  (a breeze at lvl 10)Necromancer  <-- Must kill a solo encounter of lvl 15 mobs (a breeze at lvl 20) A lvl 4 necromancer is NOT going to be able to beat a lvl 15 solo encounter, so no way a lvl 4 will have anything otherthan Apprentice.  But, someone could choose to be a lvl 70 Apprentice Necromancer if they wanted to (Just think how powerful their teacher must be to have a lvl 70 APPRENTICE!?) by taking a pass on the quests.Also, /who all Necromancer would still work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Friday afternoons are when random thoughts hatch the best.</span></div>

[Diern]

<div></div><p>Yes. The old system while nice in theory didnt really work out that well. If i wanted to play another class and truley get a feel for that class I had to go through 20+ levels to really get a true picture and decide from there if I wanted to persue it. Withthe changes you can find this out much sooner. In the old system some classes became drastically different at level 20.</p><p>Besides, this a another great step to get rid of the generic feeling of the game and add far more variety in the 1-20 levels.</p><p>I have played on the island and its 10x better than the live system kudos to the development team.</p><p>I have one complaint.</p><p>Voice overs. Where are they? and will they ever be added? </p>

[Night76]

<div></div><p>I totally agree with Cusashorn...we should get a choice...</p><p>I really liked the the early archtype classes etc.</p><p>Whats the point in having to be a necro right away...thats just not right...</p><p>EXAMPLE</p><p>I am like 18 years old...go to specific schools...get to be a let say doctor...specialize ===> old way</p><p>I am 18years old...go directly to the professor and do some things for him for a few..now give me that diploma!! BAM yay i'm a doctor ==> new way!!</p><p>(and yes i know this is a game before i get flamed about this)</p><p>My main is a necro...loved to play a mage to become a summoner.</p><p>I knew what i wanted to be before the game came out...learned the good and the bad playing my chars class but loved it all.</p><p>Thats why a choice in how u want to play would be nice...casual gamers new way...and people who want to get to their destination through the "hard" way the old way.</p><p> </p><p>But as it is the game is going more and more to the casual gamer...</p><p>sure there r always lots o fixes to be made in a game but it is just getting "EASIER" to do things in everquest2.</p><p>Love the game  but getting more and more downhill to me...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Aan'azyroth]

As a real alt-oholic, i love being able to pick my final class at lvl 1.The archetype/class/subclass thing was great to get to know the game, but when you have multiple lvl 50+ characters, it doesn't take much to feel bored when grinding through 20 levels to be able to play the class you want.One solution is, enable veteran players to roll a lvl 20 character right from scratch; the other is final class selection at lvl 1. I prefer the latter.You get a feeling how the final class will be very early in the game, instead of the dreadful: "oh no, i'm a lvl 25 xyz but i don't like the class after all, i'd better reroll a yza".It happened a lot, that i spent hard cash on lvl 20 characters, to buy them a full set of nice armor, just to delete the toon again a few levels later because i don't like the class after all, or that i liked the class but regret the race choice i made...I understand the reasons why some people might not like it, but overall, i love it =)<div></div>

[Robert Paulson]

<div>In response to the original post i understand what your trying to say but i think they have done the right thing.</div><div> </div><div>In theory an archtype system would be kool if done right but in my opinion the one SOE introduced wasn't good enough. I like the system they currently have on test much better then the old system.</div><div> </div><div>I do agree that it wouldn't be that hard to let people choose the refugee route if that's what they wanted but i think within a few months it would be taken out anyay do to lack of interest. As far as the boat ride goes ........ I did it ounce lol my first time i made a toon back in Nov 04 and thought it to be a waste of time glad to see it go. I hate it when i make a new toon and forget to click the (skip the boat ride box) then i wind up deleting the toon and making it over cause the boat was so annoying.</div>

[drongo]

<div></div><p><font size="2">i love the change that one can now pick one's class at level 1.</font></p><p><font size="2">at least 4 times i started a character and play all the way through to level 20 only to find either 1) i didn't like the actual class i got with 20 or 2) i got a completely different class that i hadn't been striving for - as in, playing a freeport enchanter to 20 then discovering that illusionist is a qeynos only class! i actually sat at my pc and cried after investing 2 weeks playing through to 20 in the little free time that i have.</font></p><p><font size="2">and with every alt, i had to wait a few weeks to see how the class would develop, what it would turn out to be and wait till level 20 before deciding whether (with my new class spells), it was fun to play and worth investing 2 weeks playing into the character. this new system saves me that, after 3 nights i can reroll or keep going.</font></p>

[mathalsolo]

<div></div>I don't like doing this, but this is what the boards are here for, right?Flame on...My Opinion (like it matters)The pigeon holing of classes to me is one of the more rediculous changes SOE has made to this game.  If I wanted to do that I'll play EQ1.  When I rolled my first character, reaching lvl 10 and going through the Mage -> Sorcerer Quest was one of my favorite experiences in any MMO.  It made me feel like I was actually graduating to the next level, instead of random dinging that occurs normally.  Same for when I hit lvl 20. In reading the responses to this thread, Im suprised that a community like ourselves, at least on the boards, favors these changes for the most part.  To me, the changes are a catering to the "I WANT IT NOW" high schoolers, and not the "I have fun in RP'ing" crowd.  This might be my twisted view on it, I don't know...I've played SWG since it started and it amazes me how much the PR'ers get poo'ed on by the dev community with changes made to that game (*cough* Jedi *cough*), so I might be biased to the view that SOE hates RPers and loves the whiners. The difference is, I've never heard anyone whine about this needing to be changed, and actually a few friends that just joined up a month ago whined about the changes themselves when they heard of them.  Thank goodness they're past the subclass quest for their mains, or they'd be missing out...heck, if I was a lvl 11-19 still on my main when this went live, I might have even reconsidered playing.  I guess being a semi-casual lvl 34 and past all that, I look at it as something fun for the new guys getting ripped away before they even knew it existed. I agree with the OP, and actually thought that's what they were planning on doing when I first read of the changes.  Sure, it's less hassle to worry about what spells are given out when based on your choice of "Returning Hero" or "Refugee", but some people, including myself, liked the story point that my character is a raw talent...no set path yet.  ... I guess what I'm trying to say is, how hard is it to enter into the prereqs for a spell the following:(if class == "Necromancer" and level ==10) or (class == "Summoner" and level = 15)Heck, this would probably be entered into a database somewhere, not hard coded, and it's not hard to put multiple prereq's on weapons/armor, so why is it hard to do the same for spells?I don't know.  I've been upset with the changes since I heard about them even though my main and my most used alts are all over or near 20...maybe I'm just someone who doesn't like change...maybe it's for the fact that I don't want to see this game get hacked to pieces like my (once) beloved SWG.  Seeing where that game went after applauding most if not all of the new changes as "exciting" and "new", blindly, I've been very skeptical of any semi-major to major change in this game...because, after all, this has been my new MMO fix since August <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by mathalsolo on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:53 AM</span></p>

[Mathe]

<div></div><p>The Achievements system easily looks to be able to give a better sense of progression through the whole game than just getting a class at 10 and a subclass at 20. Being able to make noticeable differences to your character through the achievements you choose (which you can start doing from level 20) is going to be much more satisfing than just trying to level up so you can actually start getting the skills to play the class as you want to play it or by getting a title in front of their subclass name, especially one so easy to aquire.</p>