SOE i wana know....

[modnar]

<div>I have a LV 45 guardian and i wana know would o be able to betray him into a zerker when that update comes out..if not u should make it so netrual classes such as zerker/guard wiz/war ect. can pick to change their class to the other netural class.</div>

[MadLordOfMilk]

<div><span>Think logically, there's nothing against either Guardians or Zerkers in either city... how could you "betray him into a zerker"? <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></div>

[modnar]

<div></div>LOL that's what I'm asking it would be nice to take my guard and make him in to a zerker it would be nice to have a choice to become a zerker I'm sure there's other guards who would wana be a zerker.

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><div>EDIT: Misunderstanding...</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:50 PM</span></p>

[Magu]

No, that will never happen.You are stuck as a Guardian.<div></div>

[Isim]

<div></div><p>add me to the guardian that wants to be a zerker list, i will do a quest, jump throgh all kinds of hoops and jump barrels for the chance to be zerk <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Sritt]

<div>Allowing a change between two classes you had a choice between would mean they'd need to allow people to change to any class at all they wanted at a later point. Hmm I'm a 60 paladin but I think I'd rather have been a ranger so I'll just betray and become one. Also this would be an abuse of the betrayal system, the point of which isn't a class change but an alignment change.</div><div> </div><div>The only way to do what you want is to put in a system to allow people to alter their class midstream, something that could easily be abused and a balancing nightmare (level up with an 'easy' class then switch to a 'hard' class for the endgame). Under the old system you made your choice at 20 and had to live with it period (you would have had to betray by that point so swapping between SK and paladin wasn't something that happened, you were still a crusader at that point). With the new system you start out as a zerker or guardian, you're choice. If you don't like it you can make a new character. The new system is friendlier in that you don't have to hit level 20 before you can start testing out the class to see if you like it.</div><div> </div><div>Also the ability to swap between related neutral classes would be rampant any time there's a change to one or both of the classes as people 'jump ship' over a percieved (or real) change that makes the class 'undesirable' or 'unplayable'.</div>

[modnar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>^^ what do u mean....... guard and zerker are on the same class tree its not like pally to ranger...... when u betray later on u can turn your pally to a SK so why not guard to zerker they are on the same class tree...that's not asking to much and besides b4 that class revamp guards weren't that bad. (also hit guard by mistake /sigh)</p><p>You do know you will be able to betray at any lv right?</p><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:52 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p>

[Kizee]

<blockquote><hr>rnicotina wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>^^ what do u mean....... guard and zerker are on the same class tree its not like pally to ranger...... when u betray later on u can turn your pally to a SK so why not guard to zerker they are on the same class tree...that's not asking to much and besides b4 that class revamp guards weren't that bad. (also hit guard by mistake /sigh)</p><p>You do know you will be able to betray at any lv right?</p><hr></blockquote><p>It will only work for those classes that are specific to a city.... assassin/ranger, SK/Pali ....ect</p><p> </p>

[Brong]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div>Allowing a change between two classes you had a choice between would mean they'd need to allow people to change to any class at all they wanted at a later point. Hmm I'm a 60 paladin but I think I'd rather have been a ranger so I'll just betray and become one. Also this would be an abuse of the betrayal system, the point of which isn't a class change but an alignment change.</div><div> </div><div>The only way to do what you want is to put in a system to allow people to alter their class midstream, something that could easily be abused and a balancing nightmare (level up with an 'easy' class then switch to a 'hard' class for the endgame). Under the old system you made your choice at 20 and had to live with it period (you would have had to betray by that point so swapping between SK and paladin wasn't something that happened, you were still a crusader at that point). With the new system you start out as a zerker or guardian, you're choice. If you don't like it you can make a new character. The new system is friendlier in that you don't have to hit level 20 before you can start testing out the class to see if you like it.</div><div> </div><div>Also the ability to swap between related neutral classes would be rampant any time there's a change to one or both of the classes as people 'jump ship' over a percieved (or real) change that makes the class 'undesirable' or 'unplayable'.</div><hr></blockquote>They ARE putting in the ability to switch your class.  If you log in and create a level 1 ranger, and at level 40 or whatever you say, forget it, I want to be an assassin, all you do is betray Qeynos and you will be an assassin.  (all spells/abilities become reset to new class).</div><div> </div><div>What the OP is asking, is if he is a guardian (which can be both evil and good), if he betrays he wants to be a berz, which is nothing different than a ranger doing it to become an assassin, or a level 50 paladin becoming a sk, or a level 10 dirge becoming a troub.  Its all the same.  Only the neutrals dont get a choice, and it ends up where all betraying does for a neutral class is change the city they are alligned to.  It should be an option, but then again, I am a fury, and sure dont want to be alligned to freeport, so I hope it stays with what you are unless you choose to betray.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[ValValline]

<blockquote><hr>Brong wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>They ARE putting in the ability to switch your class. If you log in and create a level 1 ranger, and at level 40 or whatever you say, forget it, I want to be an assassin, all you do is betray Qeynos and you will be an assassin...</blockquote></div><div></div><div></div><hr></blockquote>No they are putting in the ability to <b>switch your city</b>. For classes that are city specific, you will have to change classes to change cities.

[modnar]

<div></div><div>Kizee i understand that..thats why im asking for neutrals to be alb eto get a choice.right now it sucks that you cant betray a guard to zerk or wiz to war they should let you change your neutral class only if you betray your city.</div><div> </div><div>And Brong thanks for understanding what i was trying to get across.</div><div> </div><div>Also right now it seems that if a guard betrays his city at say lv 60 or 70 nothing will happen whats the point in that you should be able toc hange to a zerker.But you would lose all of your masters and adepts just like any other class.</div><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:00 PM</span></p>

[modnar]

<div></div><div></div><p>Valvalline we under stand u must change your city in order to become the different class thats why we are saying things like BETRAY qeynos to be come an assassin....all im asking is neutrals should have a chance to become there opposite</p><p> </p><p>But if u wanted to you can betray at lv 70.</p><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:49 AM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div>But why should neutrals get to choose? When you betray a shadowknight to Qeynos you are FORCED to become a paladin, you can't choose to stay a shadowknight. The betrayal system isn't meant as a way to change classes (its just a side effect now of the class revamp), its meant so you can be of a race that's not normally in the new city. The reason to start a shadowknight is either to be a shadowknight or know that you want to be a paladin of a normally evil race. The other reason people betray is so they can get more quests in their log, doing the newbie quests in one city then betraying. Again this isn't usually a 'decide to do it later' thing and most people plan this from the beginning so pick the class they want from the start. Feel lucky they're expanding betrayal to any level at some point and didn't decide to remove it as an option when they changed the class selection proccess (which was the reason betrayal was level limited before to avoid just this argument).

[Vulking]

<div>______________________</div><div>Sritthh wrote:</div><div> </div><div>But why should neutrals get to choose?</div><div> </div><div>______________________</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">For discussion sake, why not?  </font></div><div><font color="#66ff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">For that matter, what is the purpose of adding in betrayal for any level now?  </font></div><div><font color="#66ff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">Like it or not, people will use it to change class and not alignment.   If your 60 now you have learned it doesn't really matter what city your in anyway.  Alts, guildies and gmail as well as other methods have been used to get around any issues with the two cities.</font></div><div> </div>

[modnar]

<div></div><div>No one is forced to become a different class like you said, if someone betrays to the other city they know what there are doing and they know they are gona be switching there class its not like i wana change my city then what the hell im now a pally????Why cant neutrals change there class if SK's can why cant a guard its the same thing if they have to they should make it so there are no neutral class i mean a guard protects and a zerker dose harm to others i think a zerker would fit in just fine as a Fp toon same as wiz war.</div><p>Message Edited by rnicotina on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:23 PM</span></p>

[modnar]

<div></div>Thank you all who think neutrals should have a choice for right now if a neutral betrays what's gona happen nothing just a changed city but when a normal toon betrays they have a whole new toon.

[Rijacki]

Maybe to keep it "balanced", they should make changing to the "opposite" an automatic part of betraying regardless if a class exists in both cities or not.  Thus a wizard would become a warlock when betraying from one city to the other, a guardian would become a 'zerk, a dirge would become a troubador, etc.That would also answer the question of what happens to a "neutral class" spells/CAs when betraying since one which is changing class has everything stripped down to app I of the new class, why shouldn't the same happen to all betrayers?  It should be one of the consequences of betraying.<div></div>

[ValValline]

It really boils down to what SOE considers betraying to be....If it is city-centric (which it appears to be), then it makes perfect sense to only change classes that cannot exist in the city you are betraying to. It's not a "role play" mechanic, it's a game mechanic dictated by the rules SOE sets. Therefor there is no reason to give neutral classes the chance to change, because game mechanics do not require it.It if is character-centric (which I think many here are arguing for), then it makes logical sense that someone giving up everything they have known by betraying, should be given the choice to swap classes regardless. A "fresh start" in a new home.With the coming changes to the arch class system (which eliminate the level 10 and 20 sub-class quests), and the fact every class gets their spells/abilities automatically when they level (no trainers required), then technically there is no reason any class should restricted to either city. Restricting where races and classes start makes sense, since any world (virtual and real) draws lines of "use vs them" based on race/appearance. Where a race or class ends up should be the result of decisions (earning +/- faction with either city) made by the players, rather than having an arbitrary definition forced on all by SOE.If the goal of Qeynos is to rebuild the world, why would the city turn away a necro or shadowknight that chose to further that goal? Why can't a Ranger seek power and domination furthering Freeport's goals? Yes it would be out of character if you insist on forcing people to adhere to stereotypes, but one of the best things about EQ1 was the ability of each player to align themselves with almost any faction if there were willing to put in the time and effort. It's really a shame that EQ2 is so limiting.

[Brong]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ValValline wrote:<blockquote><hr>Brong wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>They ARE putting in the ability to switch your class. If you log in and create a level 1 ranger, and at level 40 or whatever you say, forget it, I want to be an assassin, all you do is betray Qeynos and you will be an assassin...</blockquote></div><div></div><div></div><hr></blockquote>No they are putting in the ability to <b>switch your city</b>. For classes that are city specific, you will have to change classes to change cities.<hr></blockquote><p>No, i stated it correctly.  Yes, they will change cities, but they will also go from a ranger to an assassin as well. (or visa versa) thus switching classes.  If I log in and create a level 1 guardian and decide at level 40 i want to betray, I stay a guardian, unlike the other city specific classes because I am a "neutral" class. </p><p> </p><p>omg... I suddenly realized I dont care anymore...[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was I thinking.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ValValline]

<blockquote><hr>Brong wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ValValline wrote:<blockquote><hr>Brong wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>They ARE putting in the ability to switch your class. If you log in and create a level 1 ranger, and at level 40 or whatever you say, forget it, I want to be an assassin, all you do is betray Qeynos and you will be an assassin...</blockquote></div><div></div><div></div><hr></blockquote>No they are putting in the ability to <b>switch your city</b>. For classes that are city specific, you will have to change classes to change cities.<hr></blockquote><p>No, i stated it correctly. Yes, they will change cities, but they will also go from a ranger to an assassin as well. (or visa versa) thus switching classes. If I log in and create a level 1 guardian and decide at level 40 i want to betray, I stay a guardian, unlike the other city specific classes because I am a "neutral" class.</p><p></p><p>omg... I suddenly realized I dont care anymore...[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] was I thinking. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>The point I am trying to make is that the switch is city based, and that class changes are merely a side effect for those classes that a restricted to a specific city.

[Sritt]

<div>Also a dev has suggested that part of the betrayal at any level could end up being faction related as there's now faction quests in the adventure yards. THe current quest can't stay in as its trivial for anyone above level 20 to complete it.</div><div> </div><div>Also I don't think they'll allow neutral classes to change because the goal of betrayal isn't to have a respec that allows a class change. You can't choose to be a shadowknight in Qeynos and you will have to become a paladin. You say that players will already be aware of this but not all will be. Since you pick your class at level 1 a new player may not realize that when they betray if they are a city-restricted class that they'll suddenly become a new class at the end of the betrayal. There's currently nothing in the game that says that, the manual doesn't even say that because until the revamp it didn't matter as all betrayable classes were neutral classes, all that it used to do was affect your final choices available after betrayal.</div><div> </div><div>Freeport to Qeynos example:</div><div>Under the old system: You are a crusader. You betray to Qeynos your final class choice is only paladin. Stay in Freeport your final class choice is only shadowknight.</div><div>Under the new system: You are a shadowknight. You betray to Qeynos and you turn into a paladin. Stay in Freeport and you stay a shadowknight.</div><div> </div><div>Under the old system: You are a druid. You betray to Qeynos your final class choices are fury and warden. Stay in Freeport your final class choices are fury and warden.</div><div>Under the new system: You are a fury. You betray to Qeynos you stay as a fury. Stay in Freeport you stay as a fury.</div><div> </div><div>All that is changing is that the system is automatically taking into account the city restrictions on a class and changing your class when needed. You don't suddenly have more options under the new system than you did under the old system other than being able to try out shadowknight from level 1. And if you don't like it and want to be a paladin you'll likely know that before betrayal level and it's much easier to start over as a paladin than it is to betray to become one. The system's main usefullness is still to allow a good race to play an evil class and an evil race to play a good class by betraying so they have access to it.</div><div> </div><div>I'm of the camp that you're class shouldn't change at all when you betray and that if you're a city restricted class you just take a faction hit with all your new cities factions, making it harder to be accepted since you're viewed with distrust due to being a class that's tied with a worldview generally opposite of your new home.</div><div>WHile it doesn't help existing characters the goal of the 1-20 revamp was to allow you to decide if you liked a class before you hit level 30 or so and therefor make it 'less painful' to reroll as a different class.</div>

[Saetyr]

<div>come on ppl it's called a betrayal quest, not a switch class quest...  we do not have new toons when we betray, after the patch if it goes to where you can betray at any lvl, this may be slightly different, but still all the same, when ranger betrays currently he is only a predator, and stays a pred till he hits lvl 20 and becomes a assassin or vice versa..  going from a guard to a zerk is a lil more than just betraying, yes they are neutral toons, but that's the price to pay for neutral toons.. </div><div> </div><div>but anyhow the point of betraying is to betray your home city, not to switch classes..  most ppl betray cause they are in a guild that is either FP or Qeynos based and they prefer a toon from the other side..  If i was a ranger i wouldn't expect to betray then become a bard of some sort, when did i learn to sing, while i was betraying?? </div>