I admit it, I am a farmer..../sigh

[standupwookie]

Ok, I farm Runnyeye and Varsoons.  And there are a few reasons why I do it.I have three toons between level 29 and 45, two fighters and a scout.  The scout has tracking, which is a great tool, but not that great in Runnyeye or Varsoons simply because things die quick there and (at least Runnyeye) has a nice layout.  Its easy and fast to get from one place to another.  Both fighters have Feign Death, but lets be honest and say that (a) Feign Death NEVER works when you need it to and (b) I dont really need FD in either.I usually group with higher level toons, who grey out the zone while we run from named to named.  We dont really do Varsoons anymore, mostly its Runnyeye.  Whether or not the mobs are grey are not doesnt matter.  We have enough firepower to kill any 4 encounters (or more) aggroed on us, so its just run till they are out of range or just have a higher level Monk aggro anything that is going to aggro, then run and FD.  Whatever, we get to the nameds or kill their placeholders.Runneye is a great farmable place because the nameds quite often drop chests with Master I spells, sometimes so nice legendary gear, sometimes some really ncie fabled gear, and often times garbage.  ROV is the same way.  These dungeons by far own every other non-raid experience in terms of dropping good loot.  I'll be honest, if the loot wasnt there I wouldnt farm Runnyeye (duh). You get level 30-40 loot....Now, some of that stuff is garbage when you compare it to level 40-50 loot (Permafrost and CT) BUT, those dungeons are a bit tougher (we still farm them) and the nameds are not as up as much NOR do they drop masters with the frequency as RE or ROV.  In fact, we were hunting nameds in the Feerot and Everfrost and we got some...but the loot was GARBAGE.  Not worht the time.Whoever resesigned RE and ROV deserves a cookie.  The loot there is amazing and you are at the level that it can easily surpass anything you will likely get up until the mid 50s.  Now, if you are in a raiding guild or do that kind of stuff then obviously you will get better loot at some point....but for the majoity of us RE Fableds are gonna be our most prized possessions.Now, there are several things we (as farmers) DONT do when farming.  Numero uno is spawn jumping.  If we see a group fighting in a hallway and there is a named in the next roo (obviously they are fighting their way to the named) then we will let their group have it PROVIDING they are not farmers themselves.  Meaning, if they are obviously EXPing and hoping for nameds (and are around level 30s) they they can have it.  But, if they are farmers we will take the named.Another thing is that we generally farm in odd hours (PST) and only if there are under 12 people in the zone.  Three or more groups, forget about it.  We will go in and do BOTH instances (who cares about that) but thats about it.Often times I forget to vendor and trash lore legendary (Tribal Legs, etc) and will /ooc "Tribal Legplates or BP in this room"...im fine with other people getting loot to use or sell.  We have been spawned jumped by farmers as well, I dont get mad as I know the nameds will be back up anyway.Another thing I dont do is overprice anything.  In fact I will usually underprice any stuff I need to get rid of (Lore Legendary Loot) because I might be getting that drop soon enough.  I cannot control WHO buys my stuff.  Hopefully someone buys it that acutally attunes the item.  I think, with items, that may be the case seeing as there are SO many of them on the broker.With Master I spells, it might be different.  All RE and ROV master spells are between level 30-40.  If I get one, I will check the broker and see what that spell is selling at.  Then I will usually put mine up for much less.  If my master spell is the only one on the broker, I will sell it at a reasonable price.  Usually between 20-80 gold.  80 gold is the EXTREME case as its hard to get that money at that level.  I usually price necro or conjuror spells at 80 gold, as they are mostly farmers anyway and are likely to have much more money (yea, some are legit but we all know who good those two classes can farm heroic mobs).So, I actually sell my loot at reasonale prices and am not a jerk in the zone.  I realize that for every good player there are probaly 5 or 10 people who could not care less. I am saving up to get a nice horse.  Those things are WAY expensive, and I would never get one any other way simply because I dont really raid nor do I have uber toons.I dont see the new changes stopping me from farming.  Now, I actually die farming so its not risk free (though there is no real death penalty in this game so it kinda is).  I will just use a bralwer and FD if I get aggro or let the higher levels pwn those nasty goblins. Let me say this too.  The fact that the ENTIRE grouping system has to be redesigned just because of two zones illustrates a few things.  Loot will always trump experience gained.  There are ALWAYS ways to farm, nothing short of perma locking the encouter will change that.  And obviously, the redesigners of RE and ROV are VERY good at their job, so have them redesign every other dungeon and maybe these two places will be farmed a lot less.Personally, I think EQ2 should have loot available like LDON....where you acquire points from doing quests or dungeons or whatever and spend them on NICE items.  Maybe make the faction system better and have different items for different factions, that way it would mean something to align yourself with a particular faction.  There are some of these in DOF, but there should be stuff for every level/style of play.  Is it that big a problem that people are well equipped?  There is a reason why 85% of the zones are COMPLETELY empty and there is a reason why NO ONE does Tombs of Night and NO ONE does Splitpaw anymore.  Put in dungeon points and specific dungeon factions (and items to be gained from that faction) and you would suddenyl see groups forming for Edgewater or Crypt of Betrayal (gasp).  I mean, you made these zones and they are always empty....doesnt that mean anythgin?  That would solve some farming problems too.Obviously, good loot doesnt drop as much in higher level places....maybe the developers should fix the drop rate in other areas of Norrath.  And like I said, if there was a questable horse at level 40ish (no carpets, please) I would never step foot into Runnyeye.SUW<div></div>

[Vulking]

<div></div>Thank you for your post.

[Giral]

<div></div><div>well you sound like a realy Swell guy , thanks for farming these palces for me, and thank's for Selling your stuff Cheaper than another player that Finally got a master drop after Month's of playing, only to have you under bid him with the same master ; ( .</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>thank for you being considerate Of other players and letting them exp on thru BUT how many other farmer's Believe they have every right to farm named's no matter who is a round .</div><div> </div><div>Wee we all glad youy found a loop hole(not an exploit) and are able to Pat your self on the back for not actually cheating and can sleep soft and sound in the belief that what you do doesn't constitute cheating ,yeah whatever</div><div> </div><div>so you die : ( and as you said death is meaningless so what , just another way your abusing the system to further your own goal's of granduer, you just want a horse so to hell and high water with everybody else, screwing other's that worked hard to get a drop that you didnt have to work for , or you could go soloing, or duoing and make loot, of the content provided for YOUR level's .</div><div> </div><div>your whole thread is just your way of saying Hey I'm a Nice guy really , just cuase i Farm becuase of a Loop hole and Under bid everyone else on market to Get what i wan't doean'y mean i'm a jerk like ALL the other farmer's</div><div> </div><div>O please save it , just go back to farming, so we don't have to listen to your pathetic , weak attempt's at consoling yourself that you are not doing anything wrong , no matter what we say you will try to convibce us your 100 % in the clear , but obviously your not as a Dev never stated that Farming was a part of the Game play and that they Implimented it in a Patch so player's LIke you could get a Ton of Master's , Fabled's , Rare's, Etc..........yeah that make's sense LoL Spare me .....let's give player X Godmode and Player's abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw, yz a 1 % chance to ever get a Fabled,Master, <-------i have been playing since release and have only gotten 1 master drop on my main toon And that was 2 day's ago, do i feel i should go PL my alt's and Farm Master's to make up time for all the master's,Fabled's i never got? NO FLIppen way , i almost did a back flip when i got my First Master , but hey to you , you  Bored of seeing master's and Fabled's to you it is just another day in the Farming Industry .</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>get over yourself , i already did go play the game , and stop abusing a Mistake the dev's made ,</div><div> </div><div>Hopefully the dev's Impliment a very good way to stop the PL'ing and Farming , if they don't well just another reason ontop of many other's that is the straw that is Breaking the camel's back , high level's leaving game, no low level's in game, and now People like you  are driving off the middle of the road player base.</div><div> </div><div> you farmer's are all Pathetic and weak</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[your savior]

I don't agree with what you do; but, another group of toons designed to hunt there killing named mobs won't affect me any differently.At least you have posted pretty comprehensive feedback of how the average farmer operates and how these pointless changes won't stop or even slow the farming process.  The fact is, too many innocent people will be caught in the crossfire of this proposed solution and maybe this post will show the devs.<div></div>

[TheBladesCaress]

All farmers say the reason they do it is to afford a horse.  Yet, they farm for weeks and weeks.  Long enough to have been able to buy that horse.I know one farmer on my server, just keeps creating characters to farm with, once he gets too high for RE, he moves onto his next 2 toons.  He has been doing ti for 12 weeks, yet his excuse is that he wants to buy a horse.  He has pages of Masters for sale.  It is all lies.<div></div>

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><p>yeah dev's do you here Savior? Farmer's should do whatever they wan't ,regardless of IF your trying to Stop them, doesn't that in and of itself say the Dev's don't considerate it a  part of the Game play? or else why are they doing anything about it?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>the excuse is that Farming isn't labeled as Cheating , So if a Dev came out and SAID it's cheating would you all stop farming?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Lock  encounter's and only let Heal's and buff's thru ,  player's have a CALL Help Button , if they call help then DP's can kill mob's ,</p><p>player's can still help those Not in thier group's Just not with DP's :smileyvery-happy: UNLESS MENTORED A GAME feature to let HIGH level's HELP low level's</p><p> </p><p>besides as pointed out in farming method 101 , you get it easy and SELL it on MArket Under value, NO that doesn't effect other players AT all? yeah right.</p><p>Note: when searching for Adept's/Master's /Gear when you see a item for sale do a search on the Broker for the person Selling it's Name : ) , this will show you Everything THEY are selling , if you see they have 60 Master lvl 20 to 40 spell's for sale Put them into your Ignore : ) , And infrom your friend's and Guildmate's .</p><p>cross server chat's : ) can also help if they switch server's : )</p><p>anyway to the people who don't use expliot's Hat's Off to you , and keep up the good fight</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:43 PM</span></p>

[modnar]

<div>What your saying is let the auto lock lock the encounters and u would need to call for help to let others help you kill it.....If you do this then it would suck,Say you are camping weavemaster for stilettos orders and the mob is almost dead at about 8% and you can die in few hits now if you call for help u lose all credit and loot from him so that 3 hour camp is in vein <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[mAdd0gtheHorrible]

<div>Yeah that would mean you failed that time,Heaven forbid if you fail at anything in this game,And have to try it again.I mean lets just give the farmers a /claim uber loot,And they wont have to effect all of the others,But lets make it so they cant sell it.GL,And try perserverance to get what you desire,Not exploit</div>

[LanceValerien]

<div>Hey, if you can't kill the encounter, you can't kill the encounter.  Learn how to do it, or level up and try it again later.  It's not rocket science.  Incompetence should not be rewarded.</div>

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:Now, there are several things we (as farmers) DONT do when farming.  Numero uno is spawn jumping. <font color="#ffff00"> If we see a group fighting in a hallway and there is a named in the next roo (obviously they are fighting their way to the named) then we will let their group have it PROVIDING they are not farmers</font> themselves.  Meaning, if they are obviously EXPing and hoping for nameds (and are around level 30s) they they can have it.  But, if they are farmers we will take the named.Another thing is that we generally farm in odd hours (PST) and only if there are under 12 people in the zone.  Three or more groups, forget about it.  We will go in and do BOTH instances (who cares about that) but thats about it.Often times I forget to vendor and trash lore legendary (Tribal Legs, etc) and will /ooc "Tribal Legplates or BP in this room"...im fine with other people getting loot to use or sell.  We have been spawned jumped by farmers as well, I dont get mad as I know the nameds will be back up anyway.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>May be you don't do these, but you probably unique.  We were on Runny Eye tonight, as duo, L46 both, still very tough alone because it is swarming with triple heroics.  While we were trying to open our way towards named that we have to kill for the quest, a L60 and his conjourer alt, passed near us. Killed the spawned named we have our quest and run away. OK, we said, wait for next spawn. He went away, come back 15 minutes later, started to wait next to us, spawned and little lowbie conjourer agroed by pet, while pet tanks, guy killed the spawn, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], locked encounter.. We waited another 15 minutes.. guy came again, this time I was so [Removed for Content] off so I acted more fast to get rid of this s.o.b</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, mission told us to move to other places kill x number of mobs and talk to eye etc. While we were doing that, this guy was always running around in same rooms, killing nameds, and running off. At least we didnt had to encounter.</div><div> </div><div>There is no simple excuse for farming. I'm L46 as I mentioned and this is my first character. I bought a horse without farming. Just selling stuff that I got from quests, random loots or pieces of armor I craft. </div><div> </div><div>I always find right at me if I have quest on that mob, and everyone who has a quest on that mob has rights, I kill steal from farmers and do I love that? No, but farmer hates that. Sometimes going to RoV just to break exploits of farmers even all gray to me. Sorry, all farmers deserve that. If I see L60 in that area and waiting in room with a no-name lowbie guy, sorry, this is not quest. STEAL IT! I know this is to extreme but farmers pisses me off too much.</div><div> </div><div>I hope they bring encounter locks and they would never use that kind of exploits again. First step is made.. Waiting impatiently for others.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:59 PM</span></p>

[Happyfunba]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div>well you sound like a realy Swell guy , thanks for farming these palces for me, and thank's for Selling your stuff Cheaper than another player that Finally got a master drop after Month's of playing, only to have you under bid him with the same master ; ( .....</div><div> </div><div>.....your whole thread is just your way of saying Hey I'm a Nice guy really , just cuase i Farm becuase of a Loop hole and Under bid everyone else on market to Get what i wan't doean'y mean i'm a jerk like ALL the other farmer's....</div><div> </div><div>....O please save it , just go back to farming, so we don't have to listen to your pathetic , weak attempt's at consoling yourself that you are not doing anything wrong , no matter what we say you will try to convibce us your 100 % in the clear , but obviously your not as a Dev never stated that Farming was a part of the Game play....</div><div><hr></div><div> </div></blockquote><div>First off, this is a complete non-arguement being made here. ANYONE selling Master1's on the market in the hopes of earning money is doing the exact same thing. Who's this mysterious "someone" that finally got a Master drop and is now looking to cash in on it thru the market? Whomever he or she is, they're doing the same thing and have absolutely no moral high-ground to stand on. They're in it for the same reason at that point: profit. In which case, just as the arguement made here states, the Devs never stated that being able to sell items for a profit was part of the game. It, like so much else in EQ2, is merely a possibility that some more than others find ways of taking maximum advantage of.</div><div> </div><div>Second of all, Farming is not a "loop hole". Farming is merely the act of searching out named mobs because they have the best chance of dropping good/rare/sellable items. Even a full group of adventurers at the appropriate level is "farming" for treasure every time their intent is to take on as many named mobs as they can find. Whether it's for the hope of finding an item you yourself can immediately attune or it's for the possible money it can generate on the open market, we are all at the root of it all "farming" mobs for our own personal benefit. Whatever we can't use, we sell or offer to a friend. Do "farmers" somehow not do the exact same thing?</div><div> </div><div>The fact that the OP and many others have found the path of least resistance does not immediately make what they are doing wrong. The way in which these players compete with others for spawns and locations, that's the only real moment where the notion of wrong-doing might come into play. And to that effect I think the arguement for limiting/hindering the attraction towards trivialized content is extremely valid. I believe, in fact, this was part of the OP's very own comments which were quickly overlooked by the majority of responses here. Remove the idea that more is to be gained from trivial content than there is to be gained from non-trivial content and you will undoubtedly see a decrease in people desiring to spend time on encounters that do not otherwise challenge them.</div><div> </div><div>Wrong-doing certainly doesn't come into play where the market is concerned however because that will always be a by-product of gaming in general. It's not the right of every player in the game to have a successful and prosperous experience within the market. It's a possibility, nothing more. And to that point, regardless of how much farmers might "farm", they make no more impact on the market than the "honest adventurer" that's also selling their drops for profit. If the market's truly one of your points of contention and you're going to blame someone, blame them both. Because from the moment a player chooses to sell their items on the market, they've become one and the same with any other seller regardless of how they acquired the items.</div>

[fxt]

<div></div><div></div>I would prefer to go back to locked encounters. A full group of the appropriate level for that zone is unable to kill a named for a quest/exp because some toolbag with a high lvl graying out and a low lvl to tag (running by you past all that WOULD aggro the lower toon) has got to stop.  They are in it for the possiblity of the master period.Great you have 20 masters on the broker...[Removed for Content].<p>Message Edited by fxt on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:14 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by fxt on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 AM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>Actually the EULA is going to be updated to make various farming behaviors against the EULA and bannable. The aggro post has some information on about page 4 from a senior producer (Gallenite) about the changes that clarifies what Blackguard said.</p><p> </p><p>The aggro changes will have a minimal impact on farmers, they know this, but is only the first change aimed at cutting down farming. The EULA will be updated and clarified to give them more room to ban farmers, they already ban 50+ a day for it right now. They are also working on changes to the loot drop system and kill credit system that will have a more direct and effective impact on farming.</p><p>He also stated that they have been watching the behavior since removing auto-locks to see how the system was used. THey have tried to use bans as a means to deter farmers but its proven to be ineffective so they are implementing game mechanics now as well. They wanted to aovid this because any change they implement will have an impact on legit players and they know it.</p><p>THe main focus of the aggro change is to make it more dangerous for travel as the current trend of 'graying out' was removing some of the challenge for certain aspects of the game, primarily quests is my guess. The system hasn't been fully explained yet but I'm hoping it takes into consideration a group that's all within exp awarding level (either naturally or while mentored) as opposed to a group with members too high/low that prevents at least one other member from getting exp. Hopefully the new system only affects the later and can change dynamically with a group to handle joins/disbands and mentoring/unmentoring.</p><p>He also stated this was not to be seen as an attack on helping out your alts or guildies. That is legitimate play. But farming is techinically against the 'vision' and use of the game. That means someone shouldn't be camping a named just to harvest their loot repeatedly. If you're truly helping an alt you are getting what you need and moving on. Not killing the same spawns 100 times over day in and day out. Not all farmers are macro bots and they're aware of this. The point is everyone of the right level should have a chance at a named and someone goign after it repeatedly and waiting on it to spawn is removing that opportunity. They removed loot (finally) from the Overseer in the Clefts because he was being farmed and it was preventing people from completing a quest that allowed access to the higher parts of the Clefts and a couple of instances.</p>

[Outerspace]

<div></div>RoflSo by changing the EULA our servers will be farming-free forever? What's this going to be, something like "If you kill more than 100 mobs per hour then you will be banished for 20 days"?Give me a break, the only time anyone might even look at the EULA is when they get banned for something, and looking at the absolutely 100% blatent scripted bot teams on my server that everyone has reported endlessly yet still continue to extend their lead at the top of the top 25 kills list with over half a million kills each now, the chances of being banned for farming are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] slim.The only way farming will end is if SOE remove the incentive to farm. Extending the con range increased the scope for farming so they didn't help themselves with that. Allowing unlocked encounters obviously permits the higher level to kill any mobs aggroed by the low level counterpart. And then they add in a smattering of fabled and master spell-dropping nameds in lowbie dungeons. You could argue SOE have been positively encouraging farming with some of their last changes. Look at it this way - if you killed a named in a dungeon and got a phat lewt from it, would you kill it every time it was up just in case it dropped more? Of course you would. You can't really blame anyone for farming teams apart from SOE.My solution would be to remove all loot from named, and instead to provide quests (omg in EverQuest?) for these named that give nice rewards instead of the utter junk that is rewarded from most quests. So that way everyone would get something and the named would not be farmed. The game should be about fun and enjoyment not about material, coin, greed and profit.You mentioned that they removed loot from the Overseer. Yes, and that was a much needed change. But the reason that mob and the other quest mobs in that zone had invisible wizlocks or AFK tanks stood on their spawn was because they had a high master chance during the master spell bonanza. Do you see people camping those spawns much now the droprate has been nerfed/removed completely? I don't.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Outerspace on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:02 PM</span></p>

[Godwrath]

<div></div><p>Best way to stop farming is making most of the legendary/fable non tradeable, and with fabled i mean masters too.</p><p>That way more people will want to buy adept 3 (helping crafters, so they, and not the farmers will be who really "moves" the market), and the masters you get for yourself will be rare again. That kills 2 birds with one shot.</p>

[LokiHellsson]

I think I read Gallenite's post that you refer to and came to the conclusion that he assumes farmers will sell farmed stuff for real world $$ on non-exchange servers and that is a EULA violation. I did not read it as "we're going to be changing the EULA so that people who farm are in violation and will be banned."

[Outerspace]

Changing the EULA wont stop that though. Isn't it against the EULA now anyway?<div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>IT was stated (either in that post or another one by a red name) that the EULA was being updated to add NEW behaviors to what was a bannable offense. THis is done so that they can ban the account and the person can't hire a lawyer and come after them. If its in the EULA and the player violates it the company has every legal right to remove their access. If its not in the EULA than it becomes a matter a judge decides on if the player feels they were unjustly banned and gets a lawyer. Updating the EULA won't stop the behavior, its being done to cover the legal aspects of making the behavior a bannable offense. I believe the EULA covers some behaviors but with some of the changes to the game mechanics there's new behaviors that farmers are using that aren't covered under the current EULA so therefore its not 'safe' to ban them for these behaviors. This is why there's many bots/farmers out there that are being reported but not removed, because HOW they're doing it doesn't violate the current EULA.</p><p>Also as has been pointed out by me and others there's often a lynch mob mentality towards anyone who MIGHT be botting/farming. Things like the AFK flag being on, being in a zone you've outlevelled mob xp wise, hitting every node and not just some of them (or hitting just ores or some other particular node), not responding to a hail or tell, having lots of fabled gear, teamed with a lower level, having someone on auto-follow for some reason, not liking your name, etc. Its up to Sony CSR's to determine if any such claim is against someone who is validly breaking the EULA. They can't say "hmm they aren't violating the EULA but are obviously farming so lets ban them". If the METHOD isn't covered under the EULA as bannable its not safe for them to do so. It sort of falls under the 'customer is always right' concept.</p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><div>HappyFunBAlls Wrote :</div><div> </div><div>First off, this is a complete non-arguement being made here. ANYONE selling Master1's on the market in the hopes of earning money is doing the exact same thing. Who's this mysterious "someone" that finally got a Master drop and is now looking to cash in on it thru the market? Whomever he or she is, they're doing the same thing and have absolutely no moral high-ground to stand on. They're in it for the same reason at that point: profit. In which case, just as the arguement made here states, the Devs never stated that being able to sell items for a profit was part of the game. It, like so much else in EQ2, is merely a possibility that some more than others find ways of taking maximum advantage of.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>again they put in drop's to be in certain Increment's Correct? and that is why they have Update's like"we have added More master drop'd, " Or "We have decreased Master drop's "  , now why do the dev's do this ? if everyone can just MAX level and then Farm all the RARE stuff? they could just make RARE drop's be UNRARE then <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , If i am a Guardian in a group and we fought for HOUR's in a dungeon and i got a Brawler Master and nobody in the group was a Brawler I can't  NBFG , so then i try to Sell it on the Market to Brawler that need's it , Just like i would try to buy a Guard spell i need of Broker becuase the Chances of me Getting a MAster Guardian drop that i need for my Current level are like 50,000 to 1 , and that is the way the dev's created the game , so there is a Comunnity with a Economy , and your Risk Vs Reward could help you Either Get a drop you can Use or sell it to someone who need's it , A influx of a TON of master's in market for Dirt cheep Totally Screw's over the level 20 to 40 level's that are trying to make a decent coin for MUCh needed money , where as a LvL 60 can go farm Mob's in POF for Plenty of Coin Far and away What the Low level's will get for the 1 master they Might get after month's of expin'g grouping'questing , you don't care anything about these people your just a self sufficent creatin, out for as much personal Gain as you can possible Aquire in the easiest way No matter who it affect's,             take a Look at all the level 30 to 40 people complaining about Farming DUHHH</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>the Game is Set up for you to Buy and SELL thing's THAT's why everything you get when Exping/Questing isn't a Specific Drop for just YOUR type of Character. if it wasn't then you could just BUY everything you want or need of a city merchant. Why are SOME item's Untradeable? shouldn't everything be tradeable?</div><div> </div><div>again your just making up excuses, they don't make MAster drop's Fall like Rain from the sky for the CORRECT level people that are Suppose to be doing that Challenging Content, what's the point of playing at ANY level of the game Except MAX level then ?that apparently is the ONLY level that you can't farm easily : )or else You would be OUT farming them instead of Easy Stuff</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:05 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:06 PM</span></p>

[Mikeyb_71]

So.....flooding the market with master spells, while tradeskill classes like jewelers,sages, & alchemists can't make a gold or 2  making adept 3 spells  for that tier is OK? Master spells cheaper than that tier's spell rares is fine? Doesn't affect gameplay?Everybody has a right to make money, but farming like this upsets an economy and makes efforts by regular players seem worthless. Names in RoV & others are for  quests....access or HQ, and killing them because "only a few" are in the zone at the moment means nothing. Your so called reasons are thin attempts at justifying what is an unfair playstyle.While this is currently not against the EULA, I hope SOE finds a solution.Regards.Rahboni Di'SolomonToxxuliaci.eq2guilds.org<div></div>

[retro_guy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Outerspace wrote:Changing the EULA wont stop that though. Isn't it against the EULA now anyway?<div></div><hr></blockquote>The EULA is very broad anyway, it has a section basically saying that you can be banned for anything "not in the spirit of the game", so if SOE wants to ban you they can.Infact I would expect they can ban an account without any reason at all, I'd be supprised if there isn't a section that says the account is at the disgression og SOE and can be withdrawn at any time.</span></div>

[Aethn]

<div></div><p>This is a good change.  I support it fully. </p><p>EQ2 has trivial loot code, you all knew it when you bought the game.  The new combat update nullified the entire reason trival loot code was used in EQ2 in the first place.  This change is fixing a mistake introduced in LU13, long overdue imo.  Only sad part is it took 5 patches to get this in place, thus inflating the economy on nearly every server with lvl 60 Master chest farmers.</p>

[Happyfunba]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div> </div><div>If i am a Guardian in a group and we fought for HOUR's in a dungeon and i got a Brawler Master and nobody in the group was a Brawler I can't  NBFG , so then i try to Sell it on the Market to Brawler that need's it...</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>The intention may be there in part, but the reality is you are going to sell it because you stand a good chance of making money by doing so. In that sense, again, you're no different from any other seller whether you have just one item to sell or a hundred. Even if you're just looking for a minor profit, it's a profit just the same and can at that point be interpreted as price-gouging or under-cutting depending upon what you sell for. </div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div>A influx of a TON of master's in market for Dirt cheep Totally Screw's over the level 20 to 40 level's that are trying to make a decent coin for MUCh needed money...</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>If you're referring to crafters who are competing against adventure drops then I agree. But you're not or at least you haven't been. You've been arguing from an adventurer's standpoint to which this is simply not the case. Adventurers are unquestionably helped by an excess of Masters placed on the market for the simple fact that it offers a vastly increased opportunity to acquire them.</div><div> </div><div>The game itself offers quite a bit of money to the average adventurer thru quests and vendor trash drops. It's certainly not enough to buy everything an adventurer will ever want or need, but it IS enough to offer adventurers choices when it comes to upgrades. It can only ever be a benefit to see more of those choices actually available if, as is being argued, the only true purpose is to upgrades one's own character. 10 Plat, 10 gold, 10 copper; it doesn't mean anything unless there's something to spend it on. The game truly doesn't offer much in the way of flaunting one's wealth otherwise.</div><div> </div><div>If there's nothing to buy then there's no need to make decent coin in the first place in which case none of this matters anyways. But since the game already provides plenty of non-market based options for adventurers to earn cash, I would have to disagree again and say hands down they would prefer Masters to be sold for dirt cheap as opposed to being price-gouged for them.</div><div> </div><div>The price a player decides to put an item on the market for is a totally different arguement altogether. Likewise too, the effect these drop rates are having on the crafters community is again a completely different debate. But the fact that more Master1s are being brought into the game world is undoubtedly of benefit to the adventurers. The mindset that ONLY farmers are causing this to be the case is fairly nieve. As you said yourself, you'd sell a Master1 that you couldn't use which is what probably 2/3s or better of the population is also doing.</div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div>where as a LvL 60 can go farm Mob's in POF for Plenty of Coin Far and away What the Low level's will get for the 1 master they Might get after month's of expin'g grouping'questing</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>A low level who's been exping/grouping/questing for months is either a) no longer a low level, or b) doing so with their exp turned off.</div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div> , you don't care anything about these people your just a self sufficent creatin, out for as much personal Gain as you can possible Aquire in the easiest way No matter who it affect's,    </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>Have you seen me trolling around in Varsoon's or Runnyeye lately? Am I the one farming these or any other mid-level locations in the game? No, I'm not. But go ahead and have another name-calling fit if it makes you feel better, just don't expect that kind of ignorant approach to pass for actual debate because it doesn't. It merely shows you to be a reactionary who chooses to speak without first obtaining some much needed facts.</div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div> take a Look at all the level 30 to 40 people complaining about Farming DUHHH</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>I'm sure it pales in comparison to the level 30 to 40 people who are NOT complaining about farming.</div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div>again your just making up excuses, they don't make MAster drop's Fall like Rain from the sky for the CORRECT level people that are Suppose to be doing that Challenging Content</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>And that truly is THE whole issue right there. Currently in both Varsoon's and Runnyeye, Master drops ARE falling like rain; at least in comparison to the drop-rates found in many other parts of the game world. For as long as that remains the case, you will have people going there for whatever benefits it might offer to them. And the fact that it does indeed benefit them is where all the attacks should be aimed at, not the players themselves for recognizing the opportunity.</div><div> </div><div>As I conveyed in the other post -- and as the OP tried to convey as well -- the issue resides in the fact that these new zone changes have made Varsoon's and Runnyeye the place to be for players who don't stand to gain exp from being there. Sony can change game mechanics to help combat that trend if they truly wish for only players of a certain level range to use these areas, but the real solution lies in giving high level players more reasons NOT to be there in the first place. One way is by making it equally profitable to be in other, more level-appropriate areas of the world which is not currently the case. But along with that they need to make the lower level zones UN-profitable for these players to be in.</div><div> </div><div>I stand by the fact that Farmers are not simply a bunch of evil people who need to be removed from the game at all costs. A vast majority are simply people who've seen an opportunity for earning money quickly and are trying to capitalize on it. The fact that some might view how they do this as being wrong doesn't inherently make it so. A person 20 levels lower using the same game content for the same purposes and with the same intent is no different. The higher level simply has an easier time doing it, but make no mistake that Farmers don't just come in the level 60 variety. I don't see a flood of complaints calling for the bannings of these people, yet there's nothing more than a difference in levels between them. Anyone here willing to take on that crusade as well?</div></div>

[Sir Blig]

<div></div><p>too true As mentioned farming will be around forever, and even a group of toons that is the correct level is mostly in there for the xp and loot</p><p>And yea just changing the eula won't stop it what is needed is something very subtle, and will only affect some activities</p><p>What is needed are a cunning change,</p><p>How about,</p><p>1. If a mob is damaged by a Toon that it is grey too then it will not drop a chest,If it is damaged in this way it WILL still give any quest updates but no valuable loot</p><p>2. and a change I have seen of late, if mobs are orange or red and are kos for your level they will be grey but will still agro on you and chase you down. Expand this to what would have been green kos as well, (yes it will make quickly helping a low toon through a level a major pain but hey why should it not) Don't make it so a lvl 60 wandering around gets attacked by every little grey kos mob.</p><p>If something like that was done it would make a nice dent in the farming industry, the farmers would have to leg it to the name, kill all of the followers who are intent of putting the low toon down. Then if they wanted the loot they would HAVE to mentor down to make the mob con and then would be in for a harder fight but it would be legit.</p><p>This May not totally put them out of business but should slow them down a fair bit and would at least level the playing field a bit.</p><p>And on the sideLeave encounters unlocked.DONT make all fable and lege loot N0-TRADE, NO-TRADE is the worst possible solution (ALL t6 fable gear (not masters) are no-trade. (I can write lots on T6 no-trade items and why it is terrible)</p><p>Things should try to remain free-market, if I get a master I can't use I will try to sell it so I can BUY a master that I can use, MAKING me quest for every master I need would make me start looking for another game, on our server prices are insane.</p>

[Godwrath]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div></div><p>DONT make all fable and lege loot N0-TRADE, NO-TRADE is the worst possible solution (ALL t6 fable gear (not masters) are no-trade. (I can write lots on T6 no-trade items and why it is terrible)</p><p>Things should try to remain free-market, if I get a master I can't use I will try to sell it so I can BUY a master that I can use, MAKING me quest for every master I need would make me start looking for another game, on our server prices are insane.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Why is the worst solution ? because it actually will make people to be in their current lvl zones to get what they need ? because it would make tradeskill much worth than going inside a dungeon of low lvls and farm it ?</p><p>Free market ? if a tradeskiller make an adept 3 shouldnt be able to sell it too ? but do you know something? with all those masters in the market undercutting the prices, being cheaper than rares of that tier to make adept 3... do you really believe that the current system is fair ?</p><p> </p><p>You didnt say any point for why fabled item should remain tradeable, just because you want to be able to sell them...</p><p></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>The drawback to No-Trade is that if everything is no-trade than you will end up with stuff you have no use for 90% of the time and that loot just goes to a vendor. No-trade items still have vendor value so will still be farmed, money is money. Right now no-trade items really only prevent farmers from farming those that drop them, but if everything good was to become no-trade the farmers would just farm anything and everything. Farming doesn't happen on just things below their level, its just the most common and most disruptive form of farming. Also most of the farming for DoF you won't see because a majority of the legendary and fabled loot comes from epics and instances. You can farm those instances but they don't disrupt other players since they have their own version of the map, that and those instances have lockout timers. Gallenite said that there were more changes coming that more directly targets farming including a change in the loot dropping mechanics. Most farmers are after money not selling on the broker so making things NO-TRADE just means they earn a bit less per item by selling it to a vendor but it won't stop them from farming since they can still make money. And making them No-Trade No-Value will just hurt adventurers who rely on selling loot (to vendor or other players) to earn the money to buy crafted or other items.</p><p>Questing results in less money than people think, I'm a quester big time. THis means I spend most of my time fighting grays to finish off quests for a few gold and some reward that usually sells for less than a gold (well now that I'm doing a lot of t6 quests the rewards are starting to go for a couple golds). I'm almost always broke and its taken the few good drops I've gotten when taking a break from questing to make an instance run with guildies that I make money, or by selling the few rares I stumble on while harvesting, something I do whiel waiting on quest mob spawns mostly. In the entire time I've run my store (I'm level 57 now) I've made about 27plats. One of the crafters in my guild makes more than that in 1 day from a couple hours of crafting t6 items.</p>

[Godwrath]

<div><div>No-trade items wont stop farmers ? do you know the value at vendor for fabled or legendary items ? 15g for a fabled item, and 3g for a master, and 2-7g for a legendary item, all that from RE. If you believe, that wont stop people farming low lvl instances, instead of be farming their own lvl instances to get cash / loot... it's you, but i do believe that would stop the farm at that zones. That's not true, most farmers dont sell at vendor the items, the more valuables (masters/fabled pieces) are sold at the broker, where any platbuyer/twinker pay for them, because normally paying the same you would pay a tradeskiller of that tier for a legendary item. Those are the items i am speaking about, not about the vendor trash/adept1.</div><div> </div><div>You still dont say any point why they should tradeable, and of course you are speaking about a tradeskiller from t6 (because nobody is actually farming that tier like t3-t5), oh, and surely that tradeskiller doesnt make adepts.</div><div> </div><div>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________</div><div>And making them No-Trade No-Value will just hurt adventurers who rely on selling loot (to vendor or other players) to earn the money to buy crafted or other items.</div><div>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________</div><div> </div><div>Of course, will hurt farmers.</div><div> </div><div>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________</div><div>I've made about 27plats. One of the crafters in my guild makes more than that in 1 day from a couple hours of crafting t6 items.</div><div>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________</div><div> </div><div>Could someone tell me how is possible crafting a few hours to get that plat ? are so high the prices in your server ?, i simply dont believe it.</div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>He buys some rares off the broker for a plat-2 plat each, crafts up his finals (he's got enough alts that he has one for pretty much every proffession but mostly does extracts and spells at Adept3), and sells on teh broker. Yes prices are high on Faydark for t6 rare crafted. Pristine imbued scale leggings sell for around 3-4 plats normally, cobalt stuff for 6-8plats for imbued.</p><p>There's a difference between loot runners and farmers. Farmers are the ones who pick only nameds with certain high-value, high-demand items. THey do it just for money, not money to buy upgrades. A regular adventurer may 'farm' in small amounts but generally isn't sitting at one named's spot to get the same drops again and again. They also tend to go after more than just nameds and tend to go for stuff only at their level. But cutting out part of the 'farmers' potential sales doesn't mean they'll stop, you'll just slow the profit rate for them.</p><p>A lot of my gear I bought off the broker because I solo mostly. If I didn't I'd not have nearly as good of equipment as I do because most of it comes from mobs I can't solo at the point they're still green or higher. I've two fabled pieces, one came from a raid I did with my guild, the other is a t6 drop from Scornfeather's Roost that comes from a named in there and was done with a full group. Everything else I'm using came almost entirely from the brokers and half of it is drops not crafted stuff (I had to pay over 2plats for each of my imbued weapons, almost 4plats for one of them because its cobalt). I think the only thing I'm equipped with I got solo is the earring I'm wearing that I just got for completing a quest I wouldn't have been able to complete if I'd had to rely only on items I could get myself as drops (mobs were 58 and 59 while I'm 57). To this day I still don't have a single Master 1 spell as I can't afford 10-15plats for a master 1 spell which is what monk t6 masters go for on my server. Maybe other servers have it easier in some areas but not mine.</p><p>So far on my server the only place I've heard of rampant farmers is in Runnyeye with about 4 small teams (usually 2 people doing the bait and switch tactic) that camp all the nameds pretty much 24 hours a day. From what I'm hearing they're camping them not for the masters or fabled gear, but for the rare raws they drop.</p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div> you farmer's are all Pathetic and weak</div><hr></blockquote><div> </div><div>Yup!</div>

[Erem]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div> you farmer's are all Pathetic and weak</div><hr></blockquote><div> </div><div>Yup!</div><hr></blockquote>Farmers are not bound by ethics, morals, or principles. Their sole concern is themselves, and themselves only. Their behaviour is sociopathic. Community is irrelevant to them.Farmers are very much like vermin. As long as you allow them to exist, they will thrive and multiply. There is no "politically correct" way to do with them. Eradication is the only option.</span></div>

[Cidal]

<div></div><p>FIrst off, just want to put my 2 cents in.  I don't farm, but have been negatively affected in my game play by farmers, but all I have to say is WAH.  It is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] game, and sometimes too many of us forget that, and get caught up.  If most of us took our rl dealings half as serious we would probably be on our way to millionaire status and doctors. </p><p>Not all farmers are in the same category.  So don't generalize, it takes away from an otherwise valid point and makes you sound ignorant.  Some people craft, some people farm vendor trash, some people farm phat lewts, and some people dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and only ever equip what they find, not buy.</p><p>Does it cause issues with enjoyment of the game, yes, if the farmers are completely inconsiderate of those of us actually questing.  So far, however the only ones I have found to be completely incosiderate were some asian botters (probably only due to their lack of understanding English, and my inherrent inability to learn whatever tongue/dialect they speak) and of course, Sepenis.  Other than that, most people know that if they continue to run wild without consideration, /reports will end them up under the eye of the 2 GM's, and however few in numbers the GM's seem to be, it is still bad for business.</p><p>So, in summation:</p><p>1.  Don't over generalize.</p><p>2.  And for god sakes, please don't cry.</p><p> </p>

[scl]

Ha! This is some funny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. That one post about changing the EULA is just about the funniest thing I've read for almost an hour!<p>There are maybe 2 or 3 posts that actually make sense in this whole thread. Get over it, farming isn't illegal and it doesn't screw up the economy any more than you do when you sell your own goods. In fact they enable me to by nice gear or masters at a reasonable price! *gasp* If anything, farmers are usually the only people who are NOT trying to rip me off.</p><p>To the OP, you say you charge between 20g - 80g for a master? I thank you for being one of the few people who actually sell at a reasonable price. As for those moaning that farmers sell masters cheaper than crafters can sell Adept III's... Yes, you're right, because people charge too much for rares, NOT because farmers charge too little. I'm appalled at the prices of Adept III's (Yes, I am a crafter - look at my sig) and that has NOTHING to do with farmers. Maybe you'll get a clue and start charging a reasonable price for rares/Adept III's.</p><p></p>

[Sir Blig]

<div></div><p>Hiya , (wow lots of update while i was typing so some may have been said)</p><p>Ok, sry didn't give a reason because I didn't want to type pages of stuff but yea maybe I should have so here goes,</p><p>I have lost count how many times I have gone though some t6 instances to try and get a nice piece of gear and off the stuff that drops it is near 90% is for some other class and no-trade and no-one in the group can use it, so just ends up going the vendor we have vendor's so much nice gear it is no longer funny, we have had very very very nice no-trade Fable gear drop within a minute of a person of that class login off for the night, you get ooos and ahhs and then drat no-one of that class so poof vendor trash</p><p>Yup most of the T6 fabled gear instantly becomes vendor trash because the class just wasn't in the group</p><p>Don't get me wrong I do support the crafters, but you cant totally kill one thing so one other set of people can benefit, the changes have to be made so the market fixes itself and markets do not fix themselves overnight.</p><p>But the problem you are describing should not be there,</p><p>If a rare for crafting is 2 plat and the masters are going for 1 plat then the person selling the rare should have dropped there price granted one plat is probably peanuts but that is the way markets work.</p><p>This would cause the market values to come down and turn the market into a buyers market until stocks were depleted and then prices would rise again,</p><p>What needs to be address is what is feeding the major causes of sections of the market getting too big of a stock of goods,</p><p>On the server I am on the market is much more on the seller's side and the prices on some things are just insane, but if you want to buy expensive items you need to mark your prices way up to help get the cash together to get what you want that an it is the nature of things that people will want to get as much as they can for there goods.</p><p>Around masters, I have first hand experience of master I hunting, once in the 40's a few of us went hunting for masters after a month of probably 3 to 5 hours a night of hunting I managed to get 1 master for my class. Yup only one and in all the time I have been playing I have only seen 2 masters for my class drop while I was in the group. Added to that a good few people are click happy when the loot box pops (yup have lost a good few NO-TRADE items to classes that can't use even though they were meaning to decline, mistakes happen) as for my 50-60 spells 60% of them and all the ones I use a-lot are Adept III, why not master? Because t6 masters for my class are a rip-off on the server I play on. In essence in all the hours I have played I have only ever had 2-3 masters drop while I was in the group and that was through all tears And as far as the gear goes we have the same problem the rares were such a rip and thanks to t6 fables gear being no-trade for my class I found not one t6 fable, I was only looking to upgrade one slot but when I found nothing I searched everything.</p><p>And yup one could say why did I not get crafted, well because the difference does not make it worth while, but from what SOE is saying T7 will be better layed out that T6 was and for the average player crafted gear will be better than normal drop and fable drop is already limited to group names and raid mobs.</p><p>So the problem here needs to be address at the source, this thread is saying that the Farmers are messing up the market, while in-fact they are turning the market into a buyers market and the sellers are not happy</p><p>And yes I am all for legitimate groups of the correct level groups fighting there way around a zone and reaping the rewards for doing it.</p><p>The extreme solution as I think was mentioned would be, ok so you want to stop farmers in there tracks, simple, just take chest drop out the game all together, that would help the crafters no-end and turn the market so far into a sellers market that the whole game would shift, all crafters would be very happy as everyone would need to get there stuff from them, but, the farmers would put down there swords and turn there attention to other activities i.e go harvesting while there other toon would be working on its crafter level so he could harvest nodes and craft day and night and flood the market with crafted and harvested goods, but there is another problem there are already farmer bots running around farming the nodes for rares, but the big problem would be the people that are playing for the adventure component and don't have the money supply would get the short end of the stick if the farmers did not bring the prices down they would never be able to afford anything so they would have to put down there swords and go into crafting and harvesting, and yes the market would go way up before coming down a bit but would remain high.</p><p>But back to the problem we are discussingIf there are too many masters thanks to farmers then what can be done?Well as was pointed out the farmers are generally running around with a high level toons</p><p>So what can be done1. Ban the farmers, (they will always be there so will be never-ending)2. Drastically reduce the drop rate on master chests so the price goes up (what levels is this affecting? Is this on all tears or are some worse than others, so far it sounds like T2 and T3 are worst off.3. …4. Put some effort into the problem over time and let it correct-itself, learn from the mistakes and fixes and change in farming behavior and plan the future with the goal of keeping the equilibrium.</p><p>So as mentioned a big exploit was opened when they allowed out of group assistance, as has been mentioned in this thread,</p><p>Some people want combat locked again while others do not as it can be very helpful.</p><p>So rather that just toss the no-lock,</p><p>enhance it, anyone can still lock their combat so all you have to do is score first hit or stand were the mob pops with combat on and hope it goes for one of your group of 6 over 1, but hey I said enhance</p><p>Then how about SOE change it, if a high hits the mob while a low is in un-locked combat there will be no chest dropped could even say the same goes for heals, out side intervention will work but by doing it the chest drop will be removed and only any possible quest updates will remain. (Any quest updates that are given by chest will need to be made body drop)</p><p>And to protect your loot, lock your combat so no outside toon can run up and hit your mob and null your loot chances</p><p>Hope that helps fill in some of the gaps and sorry if any of it is hard to read</p>

[Loki_d20]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:Personally, I think EQ2 should have loot available like LDON....where you acquire points from doing quests or dungeons or whatever and spend them on NICE items.  Maybe make the faction system better and have different items for different factions, that way it would mean something to align yourself with a particular faction.  There are some of these in DOF, but there should be stuff for every level/style of play.  Is it that big a problem that people are well equipped?  There is a reason why 85% of the zones are COMPLETELY empty and there is a reason why NO ONE does Tombs of Night and NO ONE does Splitpaw anymore.  Put in dungeon points and specific dungeon factions (and items to be gained from that faction) and you would suddenyl see groups forming for Edgewater or Crypt of Betrayal (gasp).  I mean, you made these zones and they are always empty....doesnt that mean anythgin?  That would solve some farming problems too.<div></div><hr></blockquote>While your post will come off as selfish and without merit to many, I do think this paragraph bears a good looking at to see what some of the overall issues with the game are.As far as people continuing to farm and farm, for a lot of it they consider this the way to play the game.  They want the best items they can get and will take advantage of it as often as possible, even if it means slowly building multiple characters up and using all of them to farm creatures to get the best items they can and to upgrade every single ability possible as well as to provide for their next characters.  If SOE completely stopped farming, they would in turn have to make sure that people have the ability to outfit themselves and their alts as they want as it is obviously an important part for these type of players.  The truth of the matter is, though, that many of your farmers aren't breaking any rules but just spending more time with combat xp off and taking on the lowest level of creatures that drop worthwhile chests where they can be found.</span></div>

[Vulking]

<div>___________________</div><div> </div><div>Outerspace wrote:</div><div> </div><div>RoflSo by changing the EULA our servers will be farming-free forever? What's this going to be, something like "If you kill more than 100 mobs per hour then you will be banished for 20 days"?Give me a break, the only time anyone might even look at the EULA is when they get banned for something, and looking at the absolutely 100% blatent scripted bot teams on my server that everyone has reported endlessly yet still continue to extend their lead at the top of the top 25 kills list with over half a million kills each now, the chances of being banned for farming are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] slim.The only way farming will end is if SOE remove the incentive to farm. Extending the con range increased the scope for farming so they didn't help themselves with that. Allowing unlocked encounters obviously permits the higher level to kill any mobs aggroed by the low level counterpart. And then they add in a smattering of fabled and master spell-dropping nameds in lowbie dungeons. You could argue SOE have been positively encouraging farming with some of their last changes. Look at it this way - if you killed a named in a dungeon and got a phat lewt from it, would you kill it every time it was up just in case it dropped more? Of course you would. You can't really blame anyone for farming teams apart from SOE.My solution would be to remove all loot from named, and instead to provide quests (omg in EverQuest?) for these named that give nice rewards instead of the utter junk that is rewarded from most quests. So that way everyone would get something and the named would not be farmed. The game should be about fun and enjoyment not about material, coin, greed and profit.You mentioned that they removed loot from the Overseer. Yes, and that was a much needed change. But the reason that mob and the other quest mobs in that zone had invisible wizlocks or AFK tanks stood on their spawn was because they had a high master chance during the master spell bonanza. Do you see people camping those spawns much now the droprate has been nerfed/removed completely? I don't.<div></div><p><span class="time_text">______________________</span></p><p><span class="time_text"><strong><font color="#66cc00">Absolutely dead on! Good post, particularly the part about changes that have actually helped the farmers!</font></strong></span></p><p></p></div>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div></div><p>I have lost count how many times I have gone though some t6 instances to try and get a nice piece of gear and off the stuff that drops it is near 90% is for some other class and no-trade and no-one in the group can use it, so just ends up going the vendor we have vendor's so much nice gear it is no longer funny, we have had very very very nice no-trade Fable gear drop within a minute of a person of that class login off for the night, you get ooos and ahhs and then drat no-one of that class so poof vendor trash</p><hr></blockquote><div>Yeah, making fabled stuff no-trade is pretty lame.  No idea why SOE has decided to do it.  But I doubt they change.</div><div> </div><div>And since I don't think they're going to change things from no-trade, what I think they need to do is expand the loot tables of the named mobs to include something for every single class in the game.  So that when the chest pops, the engine can check and see what classes are there, and at least make sure, if it's going to drop no-trade items, that someone in the group/raid can acutally use the item.  And I would go even further, since these no-trade items are also lore, and make sure that the chest doesn't drop a bruiser piece that the single bruiser in the group already has.</div><div> </div><div>Only real experience with lame no-trade drops came while doing CoD (I think that's the zone) access quest.  In the quest, you need to kill 3 nameds in the workshops.  These are level 33-35 or so (they were green to me at level 44), and I was able to solo all 3.  Sadly, each dropped a chest piece that I couldn't make use of.  The pieces were for mage, brawler and scout.  I am a defiler.  Now, granted, I wasn't there for the loot (I really didn't expect these mobs to be green, to be honest), so the chests were purely bonuses.  But when the brawler piece dropped, and it was reported as a guild event, I instantly got asked how much, because we had a brawler in his low 30's at that time.  Neither I, nor anyone else, realized it was no-trade, so we met up to make a trade (I think I said something like 5 gold, simply as a token gesture, as he was saying equivalent pieces on the broker were going for 60-70 gold or so).  But unfortunately we couldn't.  So I sold it to the vendor for the 4-6 gold they were giving for those pieces, and they're gone.  Pretty pointless drops, really.</div><div> </div><div>Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that I didn't get defiler drops there, as I wasn't expecting the mobs to be green, but gray.  But my first though, after realizing all three were no-trade, was "what's the point of those dropping?"  Now, to be honest, I think that a lot about things in this game (the "what's the point" part), but imagine if there was a group taking out this mob, and they didn't have a brawler.  So one person gets nice gold, while 5 get nothing.  If the code was smart enough, it'd be better to drop the gold the merchant would pay for the piece, rather than the piece, in most cases.  That way the rewards are split evenly.  (and yes, I realize the winner of the lotto could sell it and send portions to each other member, but does anyone really expect that to happen, especially in a pick-up group?)</div>

[Dayi]

Since when did farming become such a big thing? I hunt for cash, I dont craft dont have the patience for it. I have a small alt she is completely decked out in master spells legendary and fable gear. I farm for master spell for my alt and guildmate alts. I sell them the ones i dont need cheap to people that need them and why? to cover the costs of making my all decked out alt. Will you find my master i find on the market? Nope, just the high end lvl 55 and up ones that i got from grouping and some solo work. Should i be banned for helping my alt and guild mates? Of course not, the real plat farmers are doing this for money and it's there job they get paided real  money.In the last month on my server there was a Plat farmer war, yep they dont all work together. Our friend , he is a plat farmer but he also plays the game and raids with us won this little war. Does he use bots? Macros? Teams of characters? Nope, nope and Nope. He simples goes out and kill the names, by himself or with a friend. IS that cheating in the game? Nope. everyone else does that also, he's just really good at it.All the changes Soe is trying to make will not effect plat farmers, cos some play exactly by the rules and still he makes about 16  to 20 plat a  day. There aint nothing you can do to stop him cause he isnt cheating, So. now what?Compelte screw up the drop rate so everyone is screwed? No you dont want that, make master spell no trade is insane and wont happen UNless they change the loot code to that you only drop a master of a class type thats in your group.either way they well work it out though i think they will hurt everyone else in the end

[Godwrath]

<div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><blockquote>"what's the point of those dropping?"  Now, to be honest, I think that a lot about things in this game (the "what's the point" part), but imagine if there was a group taking out this mob, and they didn't have a brawler.  So one person gets nice gold, while 5 get nothing.  If the code was smart enough, it'd be better to drop the gold the merchant would pay for the piece, rather than the piece, in most cases.  That way the rewards are split evenly.  (and yes, I realize the winner of the lotto could sell it and send portions to each other member, but does anyone really expect that to happen, especially in a pick-up group?)</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Well yeah, if the code were smart enough then it wouldnt drop stuff for farmers =P. But so the problem you see in no-trade items is, if you dont have someone who could use, you will have to sell in vendor like trash. Then the problem for you is that nobody else could benefit from your loot, ok that's something respectable. But think on benefits about it. People will be more friendly with the loots, as they are no trade, they will care less as being greedy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s, and wont care that much about what dropped to get "benefit". Yeah, i am agree with you, loot table in any mob should be increased so they can drop something for each class. Just take an example, what scout items drop in RE ? not many really (only 2 as far i remember). That are pretty lazy loot tables i must say.  You are forgetting that no-trade items at T6 actually make the tradeskillers get benefits selling their legendary crafted stuff, which i believe is a good thing.</div><div> </div><div>Just take a look at the prices of the rares and the crafted stuff with the rares. Almost every rare costs the same or more than any Legendary dropped from a named or a master. That's not good for the tradeskillers.</div><div> </div><div>Your last sentence "but does anyone really expect that to happen, especially in a pick-up group?", that is the things i hate about the community in EQ2, in EQlive i grouped with tons of pick up groups, and we always designed a master looter, sold the stuff and then splitted the cash, never had any problem with it really. But here nobody expect that to happen, now is the turn to make the question, why ?</div><div> </div><div>Why is everybody kinda greedy so you dont expect to split the cash you get in a instance ? i could start to make a list about the things i believe cause that... but that's is for another thread not this.</div><div> </div><div>Making fabled stuff no-trade is making the best things to be hard to get, and you will have to do the effort to get it, not just "i go to the broker, spent 10plat on that, and i get one of the best items in game". For that are crafted legendary.</div><div> </div><div>That's my opinion of course, i dont judge others who think in other way, everyone is free to play and like to play how they like. But i believe that greed about fabled/legendary dropped able to sell at broker are ruining the community in this game.</div>

[Sir Blig]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hmmmm I think the point people were trying to make is the following,</p><p>A solo running around farming, --> nothing wrong as they are going for things that will drop and that con to them.A 60 running around with a 30, drop the 30, attack with the 30, destroy with the 60 in no time.</p><p>The 2nd is thanks to un-locked fighting and if you look at the zones they are talking about becomes a pain as there are a lot of names in a small area so they can collect them fast.</p><p>And o so sry if you were trying to get it for a quest because all the names are dead within minutes or were a group of 30's enjoying the area and would not mind a bit of good loot but hey the lvl 60 is faster so tuff luck.</p><p>The thread has expanded to cover other things because some of the farmers in the 2nd cat put all there wares on the market so the market slumps and this hurts the crafters a lot.</p><p>As far as I was reading this was more about the 2nd cat and the 1st cat was mostly left out of it.</p><p>The 2nd can not happen on the top tear, 50+ mobs will always con green until KoS,</p><p>So until then T1 to T5 is fair game for the 2nd cat group, and the best zones that were mentioned are in T2 and T3</p><p> </p><p>EDIT was in resonce to "Since when did farming become such a big thing",</p><p>Message Edited by Sir Blight on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p>

[Louis_M]

<div></div><p>i have gotten to see my share of farmers in this game quite a few in LS compared to everfrost.. i don't bother with dof much just yet so i couldn't say for that area to well but i hear no mention of the node farmers in dof or Ls, everfrost or Fe.  i have had dof for several months and curtosy of all the node farmers i have never found an ebon or a cobalt.. yes i know their is fabled gear out their that is better for mit and stats then crafted legendary but i prefer the hand crafted as i am a crafter as well....</p><p>so if they change what everyone here says they will cahnge will their no longer be a point to me doing the upper tunnles of splitpaw?? i go through their 2-3 times a night and vendor 90% of the loot that drops unless one of my alts could use it...if i come across adept 1 spells i can't use i will generally try to give them away (i can already hear someone getting upset with me on that one) i have done the same with some of the splitpaw armor mostly giving to friends i know in game some refuse to take it for free others don't care do i need the money..yes i have played this game for almost a year now and i have 4p</p><p>so am i a farmer for running through an instanced zone to earn some quick in game coin on stuff i just a vendor</p>

[standupwookie]

I charge 20-80 gold per Runnyeye Master simply because I know it will sell within a few days.  I guess you can hold out for 1-2p, but if no one BUYS the darn thing then its pointless farming.I am sick of the Runnyeye Zone and Varsoons.  But they have the best drop rate for any zone in the whole game.  I remember before they were upgraded you NEVER saw any master spells on the broker, regardless of level...and if you DID you can be sure it was for 30p.  I remember seeig stuff for over 100 platinum...yeah, right.Is this a crafting game or an adventure game...you cant have both.  WOW is an adventure game, crafting is basically a hobby.  You get your loot from drops or quests.  EQ2 wanted to be a crafting game at first, hence the LOW drop rate on just about everything.  People get TIRED of playing their toons with AP IV spells.  Some people (like myself) loathe tradeskills...I would imagine that most of the people who play this game dont wanna have anythign to do with tradeskills...sure, we may have tried tradeskills and even got to around level 20 (which is easy), but once you realize the dull monotony, we stopped a long time ago.I shouldnt have my toon's lewtness decided onm the whim of some crafter who overcharges for their goods.  Now that the market is flooded with Rares, Masters, etc....you dont see that.  Things are now sold in accordance to their fuel cost and time consumption, and with the upcoming tradeskill changes it will be even LESS.  That is a good thing. Two Zones.  Tahts it.  Two Zones in the game are causeing trouble becuase they drop great loot in short amounts of time.  The same can be said for the Tier 1 zones....those monsters ALSO drop Master spells, but its so easy to out level that they are basically worthless.  You can use those Runnyeye Fabled right up until level 60, and I bet a lot of people (like myself) do.So, either up the rare/master drop across the world and make MORE people happy, or nerf those two zones into oblivion and make only those jealous people happy, the same people who wnat massive death penalties or shards or whatever...no thanks.  Those days of EQ1 are over....go play Vanguard.If EQ2 is the casual game that it markets itself to be, then you have to recognize that players WANT zones loot-i-fied.  The only ones who really dont are those crafters....who want to MAKE MONEY by the way.  And you cant have it both ways.  Either you have a crafting game like Horizons (and last time I checked that game is dead) or you have an adventure game like WOW (and last time I checked, that game had 5 million subs).  SOE looks at its pocket book, what do you think they are gonna do.SUW

[masterche]

didnt read everyones post, cause im really lazyBut to get started.I've seen farming done, and i've even tried it myself.not to buy a horse. not to make a crap load of money, masters dont sell to well anyways.collected all the masters from my friends and went on a selling spree, out of like 30ish, sold maybe 4...If the spell you want for your toon isnt on the broker... or the fence.Then how else to get it? farmingYou guys look at it way wrong.Farming is more like harvesting.(infact, they are the same)sure people are gonna go out harvesting for PGTbut generally harvesting is done for self gain.In harvesting you run around, get all the nodes and hope you get a rare.in boss farming, you run around, kill all the bosses and hope you get a rare.In harvesting, theres a chance you're gonna have bags and bags of junk, and 1 or 2 rares.In boss farming. same thing.. bags of junk. 1 or 2 rares.So to get rid of boss farming, is no different than getting rid of harvesting. (farming and harvesting just work with the same terms)This aggro change isnt gonna change anything. it will just be an annoyance for people who dont farm.. heh, or harvest.1 farm method is team with a high level. find a boss, you disband, attack and tag the mob/boss, they pull aggro and you work together and kill it.1 harvest loop method, is you goto a zone, team up with a high level to grey it out, and you harvest all the nodes frollick around what would normally be deadly creatures. and do this until your bags are bursting at the seems.So to sum this all up. I dont have a problem with harvesters farmers or even plat farmers as i dont make my money in any of those 3 ways so no real compitition.I get rares cheaper. i get master spells cheaper. and theres more of a selection.Without farmers. Master spells would cost 5-20plat each even for the 3-40 spells. and That ebon cluster you just bought for 75g.. woulda cost 2plat+The only people who are really hurting "coin wise" from farmers.. are other farmers.Now anyone who disagrees. is either a fool, or just doesnt know how EQ2 economics really work.<div></div>

[Happyfunba]

<div></div><p>Well I would have to say though that crafters actually are being hurt by farmers, but the problem doesn't rest entirely upon the farmer's shoulders. I think the state of things in EQ2 currently dictates that crafters are going to be effected negatively by adventurers in general because there are very few meaningful dependencies between the two. Instead, there is an over-abundance of direct competition which over time is going to be won by the adventurers.</p><p>But see, this is getting into a completely seperate discussion that is better suited for a new topic. What I would argue however is that people see farmers as being the exclusive reason why crafters are being hurt by the influx of adventure drops, and I believe that is false. The adventure drops are entering the game and will continue to do so at roughly the same rate regardless of there being high level farmers or not. And that still doesn't take into account the "appropriate level" farmers who will exist at all times as well. In one respect or another, farming simply will not stop. And so long as that's the case -- and coupled with increased Master drops -- eventually the market will be over-burdened with items that directly compete with crafters who can only ever create items of lesser quality (again, as is mandated currently by the game itself. They can only ever create Adept3s. Master1s will always beat out an Adept3 therefor the crafter is forever limited to offering a lesser prefered item).</p><p>Two things happen when adventurers of the "right" level begin hitting mobs that drop Master chests more frequently. The worst case scenario is that something drops which nobody wants and usually is Free-for-all 'ed. For the sake of arguement, let's say it basically ends up going for sale on the broker (which in most cases is true) where it becomes a direct competitor with crafted items. The eventual result is that too many of that same item appear on the broker as more people are trying to sell than there are people willing to buy, and price reductions soon follow, potentially out-pacing even the minimum cost a crafter can afford to sell their own lesser-quality versions. Crafters MAY be able to get an interim sale, but they can only sell at a price that's lower than the lowest Master spell is priced at, which might even be less than their own crafting costs. In other words, the crafters eventually lose.</p><p>The best case scenario is that an item drops that IS a direct upgrade for someone in the group. That is great for the adventurer of course, but what gets lost in the shuffle is that it still becomes a loss for the crafters. Instead of perhaps getting the interim sale of an Adept3 or App4, now you are having more adventurers with immediate upgrades without having to go that route. Though the item doesn't make it onto the market to become direct competition for crafters, the effect remains the same. A potential buyer is completely removed from the equation altogether. The crafters get absolutely no revenue from that person for that one specific item/spell/ability. Particularly lucky adventurers or a group of level-appropriate farmers will similarly be able to outfit themselves without having to buy any of the wares crafters make.</p><p>So the idea that it's the high level farmers who are destroying the economy and killing the crafter community is really just a half-truth. They are indeed helping to bring in an excess of Master drops into the game world, but that's more the fault of increased Master drops in these revamped zones. Furthermore, to remove high level farmers from the equation merely means that appropriate level players can now take their place which they most certainly will. It makes no difference as far as the crafter is concerned because the Master drops will continue to flood the world and either directly compete with them on the broker or simply remove a potential buyer altogether who no longer needs a crafted upgrade. Crafters lose out regardless.</p><p>The issue really does not lie with the high-level farmers, or farmers of any level for that matter. It lies within the way crafting is forced to compete with adventure drops and the fact that more and more adventurers are beginning to have less and less need for crafted items. Farmers, in this regard, are merely a scapegoat. Attempting to remove them will not make things all better as far as crafters are concerned. The problem will continue to exist until the issue of direct competiton is specifically targetted and adjusted. But again, that is a whole other topic all it's own.</p>

[Sritt]

<div>I don't think the devs goal is to go after all 'farmers'. THey're targetting those who are getting around the trivial loot code and camping a named (or set of nameds) denying EVERYONE else the chance at them, many of whom are of the appropriate level for the challenge. Most instances are designed for groups so are ignored by the types of farmers that are causing the problems. That means the 'bad farmers' are mainly going after solo and small-group content which is the majority of casual players playstyle, and a good chunk of subscribers. Even some hardcore (and with my post count and playtime I guess I could be called hardcore though I don't see myself that way) players mostly solo or go in small groups rather than constantly raid and instance farm.</div><div> </div><div>The devs are targetting those who are disrupting the gameplay and enjoyment of others by exploiting a feature that was meant to be of help to the community. They're not going ot start restricting things again because no other methods have deterred these disruptive people.</div><div> </div><div>I think half the problem with all this is the fact that we really only ahve one term for going around trying to get loot we need: farming. Its basically the whole hacker/cracker semantics at play here. Most see the term hacker and think something malicious and illegal. Hackers will tell you that no, those are the crackers and that hackers are just testing the limits and have no malicious intent and don't do anything to disrupt the systems they get into, and don't try to profit off things. That's what we're seeing here. Farmers are like hackers, and the 'evil' ones are the 'botters'. Its not the general behavior that's the problem, its the intent and methods of that behavior that is the problem. THe disruptive ones never level up, never leave the camp (since many do it in shifts so there's always someone from their little cabal there or they macro things so they can leave it unattended), never let someone wandering by get the named if they need it, will do their best to tag the named first if someone else is already there waiting for it to spawn, and often aren't putting the loot on teh market. Some times they do but I've seen a botter in Lavastorm and he never has antyhing up on the market as far as I can tell but he's been on the beach in lavastorm for over a month constantly wiping out all the fire lizards there. You can't tell me tha the rare named there really has that good a drop rate to warrant turning off xp gain for well over a month? He never responds to hails usually and we're fairly certain he's macro'ing and unattended as he's attacked lizards that others were already fighting if they happened to be closer to it and got the first swing.</div>

[masterche]

I dont know about you guys.But im also a crafter.And farmers help me out too by supplying the rares i need at a low price.And this helps my friends and family cause im a very giving person. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />^_^ If you dont like farming, then dont farm.<div></div>

[Proudfoot]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheBladesCaress wrote:once he gets too high for RE, he moves onto his next 2 toons<div></div><hr></blockquote>Uh, well I guess farmers don't have to be too clever, but you can turn off your combat exp...</span><div></div>

[Demodicus]

<div>Farming happens all the time.It is always going to happen.A thread isnt going to stop it so cry. :robotmad: GG</div>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:<font color="#ff0066">Personally, I think EQ2 should have loot available like LDON....where you acquire points from doing quests or dungeons or whatever and spend them on NICE items.</font>  Maybe make the faction system better and have different items for different factions, that way it would mean something to align yourself with a particular faction.  There are some of these in DOF, but there should be stuff for every level/style of play.  Is it that big a problem that people are well equipped?  There is a reason why 85% of the zones are COMPLETELY empty and there is a reason why NO ONE does Tombs of Night and NO ONE does Splitpaw anymore.  Put in dungeon points and specific dungeon factions (and items to be gained from that faction) and you would suddenyl see groups forming for Edgewater or Crypt of Betrayal (gasp).  I mean, you made these zones and they are always empty....doesnt that mean anythgin?  That would solve some farming problems too.Obviously, good loot doesnt drop as much in higher level places....maybe the developers should fix the drop rate in other areas of Norrath.  And like I said, if there was a questable horse at level 40ish (no carpets, please) I would never step foot into Runnyeye.SUW<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>This to me is a great idea not only for the farmer issue but just to have this feature in general. I personally loved the DoN EQ1 expansion and the whole complete Mission A and get a set amount of points and then accumulate enough points to buy upgrades.</p><p>With a system like that, anyone can get nice upgrades (Spells included) and no worry of farmers as all the missions are in instanced zones. This is a great system for the non raider also.. Not in a raiding guild, no problem.. Do enough missions, accumulate enough points and "buy" that nice upgrade.</p><p>The experience was pretty darn good in these missions also.. There were two factions to chose from. This to me, was s a win/win system.</p>

[TaleraRis]

<div>I agree, Trook. LDoN's flaw was linking certain items to certain camps. If you were a leather wearer (my main alt was a druid) then you were stuck, because who ever wanted to go to Lower Guk?</div><div> </div><div>DoN fixed the problems with LDoN in many ways I think. First, the base level loot before you added the augments was of much better quality than even the highest costing LDoN items. Second, it had a single camp for each faction, so everything was linked to a centralized placed. And the best part I thought, was that you could trade your crystals, unlike your LDoN points. This way those that *did* have the time to grind out DoN missions could make a little plat and those who didn't have all that time could buy their crystals for decent upgrades.</div><div> </div><div>I didn't get to play with DoN much. I've recently gone back to EQ as well as playing EQ2 though, and the loot there is still decent quality, plus the Monster Missions are fantastic xp. Although I see the same issues we had here with Harclaves. They're *too* good and people are using them to level up rather than going out in normal xp groups. But they were handy this past weekend to help me shuffle my way through to 69, so I can't complain too much <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Tro]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Oh yea I forgot about the tradable cyrstals (Points). I never played LDoN much.. Just didn't like it.. DoN was a 70% improvement over LDoN.. Oh well.. maybe the Devs will atleast take this into conderation and do some brainstorming as to it's feasabilty.  There were some features I loved about EQ1.. DoN,  and the Guild Hall w/teleporter.. Those things honestly is what kept me in EQ1 for so long (as well as the awseome folks in my guild). I was not in a raiding guild.</p><p>And I am NOT advocating making EQ2 into EQ1.. just saying if even just one of these functions  was added into EQ2 (Or something close to it), I personally would be very happy. It would just make EQ2 that much more enjoyable..  </p><p>Folks will still have the usual named mobs to get HQ updates and /or loot and the DoN type system would be a very nice alternative for gear upgrades.</p><p>Would a DoN type system stop or reduce the farmers? Who knows.. but I think it is worth a look into..</p><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:23 AM</span></p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><div> </div><div>As an example, there's a set of what I suspect are bots (or at least partial bots) that routinely are running around in The Feerrott every time I'm in that zone (which has been quite a bit the last week, as I was hunting for the ever elusive Brush Constrictor to catalogue for about 12 total levels, off and on, and finally got one a few days ago, so I've been doing all those quests that were locked behind this mob, even though they're too low for me, simply because I like doing quests).  This is a group of 3-4 people (3 or 4 of them are there, always, but there's only 4 different toons that show, so if it's only 3, it's 3 of these particular 4, and if it's 4, it's always the same 4), level 48, who've not leveled for at least 10 days.  They run the same pattern over and over (area near where Bouncer Fug spawns, but wider than just his area) harvesting any metal nodes (this area of the zone is constantly littered with fungus and bushes, and I have never seen them harvest a den or root node, but I know they run by the fungus and bushes, and always stop at ore and rocks).  This group, I think, is semi-botted.  Meaning that it's one toon with the rest on auto-follow, and they don't fight when they have aggro all the time.  It seems to me that what is happening is someone is probably in the room wherever these comps are, and they occasionlly check in to see if they're dying.  I've seen them kill a Greenblood Bouncer, but I've also seen them train the Bouncer as well as about 15 sattars until all give up.  When they do fight, the toons rarely use any combat arts or spells (the mobs will con green to them at 48, but some are also gray).  If I'm there harvesting a node, and it's one they run up to, I think that messes up their script, because they all seem to run up to it and every single one generates a "soandso was interrupted" message in my log.  Then they stutter for a second and move on.</div><div> </div><div>They are all in the same guild (this is a 7 person guild created on Dec 26, with the 7th member joining on Jan 14, and he's only level 5).  The main 4 are a 48 templar, 48 warlock, 48 wizard, and 45 illusionist, and they all have insane kills vs death ratios.  There's a level 50 berserker in this guild, but I've not seen that toon in the Feerrott.  The other 2 members are low-level adventurers, level 50 artisans (jeweler and sage).</div><div> </div><div>What is frustrating about this is that the group of 3-4 monopolize a large chunk of the harvestable areas in The Feerrott, semingly 24/7.  They do not respond to /tells, and exhibit bot behavior the majority of the time.  But since they'll occasionally fight off their adds, they are at least somewhat monitored by someone, so I doubt the accounts can be banned.  And they list gobs of T5 metal rares on the broker.  It would be obvious to anyone other than SOE that these are just harvest bots, but if SOE needs to catch them afk harvesting for an extended amount of time, they never will, as they are likely run in a room where someone is awake (doing something other than watching his EQ2 toons), but close enough to hear a /tell.</div><div> </div><div>So as a customer, it seems like a lose-lose situation.  Any report I send will do nothing, yet these toons will continue to monopolize a section of a zone harvesting.</div><div> </div><div>The same thing applies to Named farmers.  Some will actually respond, but many (most) don't.  They simply ignore you, pull the named, and get the drop.  Usually having a lower level that's ungrouped start it, so the drop happens.  Overall, it's not so much that they are getting the drops that really bothers me, but that farmers (both named and harvestables) are denying content to legit players, and in the case of harvesters, I'm 100% convinced by botting/scripting, so it's 95% of the time unattended.</div><div> </div><div>I also have screenshots of the 4 mage group, all level 28, who are still wearing ONLY their citizenship ring and level 20 robe and staff.  Well, I take that back, one also has on his Isle leggings still.  And the rest of their slots are empty.  Their names are random, they're unguilded, and they've been level 28 forever.  These are clearly toons used to plat farm (why else would they not keep a single drop for the character, or not level up in months?), yet I know they've been reported multiple times, and nothing is done about them.  But if they're hunting in your area, you can forget about them being cordial, and you can count on not getting any mobs in the area you need for quests.</div>

[Godwrath]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you give them the welcome as seller because they put the prices low and a lot of stuff to sell. But you dont like them when they are ruining your gaming experience at dungeons. Oh , right...</p>

[Tro]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <font color="#ff0066"><strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker</font>.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you give them the welcome as seller because they put the prices low and a lot of stuff to sell. But you dont like them when they are ruining your gaming experience at dungeons. Oh , right...</p><hr></blockquote>He never said that.  He is simiply saying that THAT part of the farming doesn't bother him probably because well his concern is the access to the content.. not the broker prices.. Could be wrong but thats the way i took that..

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you give them the welcome as seller because they put the prices low and a lot of stuff to sell. But you dont like them when they are ruining your gaming experience at dungeons. Oh , right...</p><hr></blockquote><div>I hate it when people take things out of context to make them fit the point they want to make.  Did you read the rest of the post?</div><div> </div><div>(and yes, I should have inserted a "most" there, but sorry)</div>

[Grimme]

<div><div><div><div>It seems pretty clear that SOE increased master drops because they want people to advance more quickly to the new content they are releasing. And thus the price of masters, and the availability of them, has improved for the buyer. Given that this was clearly SOEs intent, saying its bad that masters cost less is pointless - it was the goal of the change. Whether they are farmed or not, they were going to get cheaper.</div><div> </div><div>Now, for the sages out there. Yes, Ad3s are not worth as much. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that pretty soon no one will want Ad3s or even Master1s anyway, when they can get Master3s. Isn't that the logical progression when you can get a sage to level 70 or 80? Should that happen, Master 1 would become the new Adept 1.</div></div></div></div><div> </div><div>That said, there is etiquette if you want to ethically farm nameds. Here you go:</div><div> </div><div>1. Don't farm rare named mobs, only common ones with short respawns.</div><div>2. If someone comes by clearly looking for the mob you are farming, talk to them and let them know they can have next. Offer to tell them when it spawns and that you will hold the mob for them until they get back (root works well here).</div><div>3. Offer them to farm with you if that is what they are looking for.</div><div>4. On more moderately rare named mobs, ones with half hour respawns, ooc to check if anyone needs it for a quest before you kill it. Watch out on this one, a number of people will run to the mob. You can reserve it with root for a considerable amount of time if there is any question (like if a less ethical farmer runs over but you are waiting for a person who needs it for a quest).</div><div>5. Never 'skip over' a group or individual who is clearly there to kill the mob in front of you both. Talk to them first.</div><div>6. If a group fights its way to you and skips you, don't be rude. Say hi, help them out, they will probably leave after the fight anyway.</div><div> </div><div>Farming is part of socially advanced play in other games. For example, in NWN (Neverwinter), farming (and pvp) was pretty much what you would do past a certain point. Huge crowds would gather around a farm spot, like the dracoliches. It was very social. People calmly chatted, traded items and waited in line. It was like trying to get into a popular club.</div><div> </div><div>There are of course differences in the games, but farming of itself is not inherently a bad thing.</div>

[Godwrath]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you give them the welcome as seller because they put the prices low and a lot of stuff to sell. But you dont like them when they are ruining your gaming experience at dungeons. Oh , right...</p><hr></blockquote><div>I hate it when people take things out of context to make them fit the point they want to make.  Did you read the rest of the post?</div><div> </div><div>(and yes, I should have inserted a "most" there, but sorry)</div><hr></blockquote><p>My apologies, my bad english strikes back. But yes i read the rest of the post, and hasnt nothing to do what  i thought you meant in that sentence i misunderstood.</p><p>I just want to mean, to stop that zones of being farmed 24/7, we will need to lose something, i dont see any way there to stop the farming at that zones, withouth making the rest of the players lose something (going back to autolock, no-trade items, etc etc...), it's not a problem with an easy fix.</p>

[Jasco7]

Let me start out by saying, I admit that I did not read every single post but a large majority, so if there is any repetiveness I apologize now. I admit that I have accompanied my lower level brother in low level zones to hunt named mobs for loot.  Majority of our reasoning was to obtain some good low level skills or equipment for him and my alt.  Technically speaking there is nothing wrong with this, as of most of the time we did this when no one was around or if someone needed the mob for a quest we allowed them to get the next kill.  This goes back to being curteous since it wasn't necessary for us to kill them repetitively. However, farming is an actual part of the game whether people want to admit it or not.  I really wish people would stop pointing fingers at those who enjoy farming rather than crafting to make money.  It is part of the game and most MMORPG's are created so that it is possible to do this. What people should focus more on is that lame [Removed for Content] botters who continuously farm harvest nodes or craft or repeatedly kill mobs to level up a character without touching them.  Don't care what anyone says I've reported people who display perfectly what a bot looks and acts like, has SOE done anything?  No!!!  They do not care b/c those peopel are paying for extra accounts which equals more money in their pockets.  Instead lets hurt the legit farmers (even if I help my lower level friend and I'm 60) from finding items for their characters or alts.  I do not care what anyone says in defense of proving if someone is a bot.  You can send them tells, follow them, watch their movements, behaviors, etc. etc and figure it out.  Does not take a rocket scientist to discover the person is really there.  If you ask any half intelligent question you'll find that the responses have nothing to do with the question. Those that claim it destroys the market, well potentially it could if everyone in the game did this, but truth is not everyone does.  Those who think farmers hurt the game and you fix it so we can't farm anythign at all unless we are in a basically full group to kill a mob, well you have another thing coming.  What happens when you think crafters are gonna be the main suppliers of spells?  Everyone and their sister will get a bot for harvesting and crafting asap, seeing that little is being done to those players and more to legit players.I agree it is wrong for a person to steal a named mob from somone who needs, and not everyone is considerate enough to let them have it.  Any making mobs agro lower levels even as grey is ridiculous b/c fact is many times (especially when not farming) we want to run through an area quick to get to a location to help our friend.  Now instead of running straight to where we need to be to help out (even if you mentor when you get there), you have to spend more time fighting useless mobs to help that person.  Well way to increase the tediousness of a game SOE.  Not a viable solution.My suggestion is this:-->  All named mobs for quests should not drop loot (therefore no incentive to kill that mob for the loot, people with quests can have)--> More instance zones that have named mobs and a chance to drop loot--> Give a % for certain named mobs to drop better than others (example maybe group mobs in PP compared to elsewhere)--> Make some zones that 1-4 players can solo for loot but % for fable and masters are less(In all the runs I've personally done I've received 3 masters and no fabled to sell and I've been level 60 for about 3 weeks, this includes instanced zones prior)-->  Allow people outside group to kill mobs.  Does this make it easier to kill named mobs?  yes.  Does it mean that everyone does it or that bother doing no.  Like I stated before if things are %'d it doesn't really matter if I help a level 30 kill a level 32 named if it only drops a master/fabled 5% of the time)I've played games like FFXI where people were paid to camp named mobs and stole them repeatedly and jacked prices up.  I've yet to see prices sky rocket due to farming.  You know what. farmers make the game better because it makes items on the market reach a realistic price.  You are naive if you think a level 30 can afford to buy a level 30 master, unless they either spent first month crafting and have a high level crafter, found a master and sold it of the same value, or have high level firend who buy them for the person.  In all honesty farmers are good for the economy if they are kept legit.  It is the 3rd party program botters that end up ruining games.  And in all the games I've played online, companies do not take a stand to them, yet skirt the issue and allow them to stay b/c they pay for accounts.  Once in awhile you hear about accounts banned to scare people, yet they just buy new ones.  If players took a stand and challenged companies like SOE to go after people you use programs to harvest,craft, level, or farm we would not have to worry about people farming to sell items online.My only solution to remedy that problem would be this:# of servers dedicated to fair play, strictly enforced and investigation of potential 3rd party programs# of servers which are allowed to use 3rd party programs free at will and do as they wish with items# of servers which are free of 3rd party programs and allowed to sell items online if they wish (kinda like station exchange)Let the flames begin, but remember your flame is a reminder of your immaturity.Positive criticism is the sign of an intelligent gamer and person.<div></div>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>BrickyardRacer wrote:<div></div><div>One thing I wanted to state, and I don't know how many people I speak for, but I think quite a few, is that what bothers me about farmers is <strong>NOT</strong> that they have tons of loot to sell on the broker.  It's that they do their farming in areas where I also would like to adventure, and so their farming cuts out my chances at doing the content when it's level-appropriate for me to do so (be it my main or an alt).</div><hr></blockquote><p>So you give them the welcome as seller because they put the prices low and a lot of stuff to sell. But you dont like them when they are ruining your gaming experience at dungeons. Oh , right...</p><hr></blockquote><div>I hate it when people take things out of context to make them fit the point they want to make.  Did you read the rest of the post?</div><div> </div><div>(and yes, I should have inserted a "most" there, but sorry)</div><hr></blockquote><p>My apologies, my bad english strikes back. But yes i read the rest of the post, and hasnt nothing to do what  i thought you meant in that sentence i misunderstood.</p><p>I just want to mean, to stop that zones of being farmed 24/7, we will need to lose something, i dont see any way there to stop the farming at that zones, withouth making the rest of the players lose something (going back to autolock, no-trade items, etc etc...), it's not a problem with an easy fix.</p><hr></blockquote><div>Well I have no real problem with farming, per se.  What I mean is, if a player wants to spend his time doing the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, more power to him.  Assuming it's an attended toon, and not breaking a certain ethical rule <strong>*(see below)</strong>, as long as he stops farming that quest mob so I can get my update and move on, there's no issue.  This simply doesn't happen, though, most of the time, which is why farming has such a bad name.  SOE needs to 100% take loot of quest nameds, <strong>unless the person/group killing that mob is doing it for quest purposes</strong> (or better yet, take the loot off the mob and add it as a reward for the quest completion).</div><div>Harvesting farming, however, is annoying, when people cherry pick what they want, and leave a field full of shrubs and fungi for others to clean up.  But this is as much SOE's fault as players, as in an area, if you have 3-4 people harvesting everything, and one person arrives and starts cherry picking, you suddenly have 4-5 people cherry picking til the area is shrubs/fungus, and then everyone leaves frustrated.</div><div> </div><div>* If you are level 60, using a level 40 to tag a RE named, then kill that gray with your 60, then I feel you should be banned from the game.  It won't happen, I know, but even the devs have stated that farming in this manner (and in the unmentor to gray the zone until we get to the mob, then mentor and kill method, as well).  Unfortunately their first step is to put into place a grouping system (mobs don't get grayed out by other group members, per the LU 19c update notes) that will annoy more legit players than farmers.  But that's SOE for ya, I guess.  Unlocking combat was one of the worst things they've done in this game, and it's the easy fix to MOST of the named farming that's being done.  Now they're just going to make non-farmers mad in their efforts to curb farming, yet the farming will continue.  Just brilliant.</div><div> </div><div>And botting (or apparant botting) is by far the worst. This is seen more in harvesting, and it ruins entire sections of zones.</div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><i>"If you are level 60, using a level 40 to tag a RE named, then kill that gray with your 60, then I feel you should be banned from the game."</i>Hey guess what.  I am a level 60 in a small guild that doesn't raid.  I don't like to craft and I don't have any interest in playing any alts.  I am all done with my HQ's including the DoF one and I have all T6 legendary and fabled gear and spells that I got from spending countless hours harvesting nodes to get rares and doing high-level instance zones with pickup groups every night to get fabled loot.  I have all the best stuff that I can possibly get right now without having to kill high-level raid mobs.  So now I am bored.  I do writs to get guild XP but that gets old fast.  So to make myself usefulI until the next expansion I have gotten in the habbit of accompanying lowbie guildmates into zones like RoV to PL them and help get their HQ's done.  So sue me.  Since our guild is so small we don't usually have enough players online around the same level at one time to get any HQ's done the traditional way and it sucks trying to find a pickup group for that kind of thing.  So I help them out by grouping with them to gray out the zone until we get to where they need to be and then I disband and let them tag the mob they need for their quest and then I tank/kill it for them outside the group and they still get loot, XP, and quest credit.  So what?  Is that really such a crime?  We kill a lot of common mobs too just for XP and I have gotten people up to 4 levels in one night that way.  But it still takes time and effort, just not as much as it would for a normal group.  And if we see any named up then we take them as well, unless someone else is already camping them of course in which case we leave them alone.  Why shouldn't we?  Like I said we don't do any raids so we don't get a whole lot of good fabled loot for our guild very often.  We generally do not "farm" any named mobs this way either though.  I have seen people doing that and I don't think it's right but then who am I to judge them?  Also, it's not as easy as you may think it is.  Keeping lowbie's alive in zones that are technically too high for them and still getting them enough loot and XP to make it worth the trip can actually be quite a challenge.  Your timing has to be perfect and everyone needs to know what they are doing in order for it to work right otherwise it's not worth the trouble.  If you don't believe me try it yourself sometime.  Try getting two level 25's down to Lord Everling in Nek Castle like I did one night to help 2 of my guildies get their Hadden's Earring done.  All the level 33's and above were aggro to us while we were grouped since they conned red to them so I had to kill them all to get them out of the way and my friends had a lot of trouble tagging the sisters without getting one-shotted.  I actually had to kill myself a few times to reset the mobs that I pulled too early since you can't run off any aggro in there.  And how does a level 60 kill himself in Nek Castle?  By falling damage, letting Izzo eat you, and/or using Manastone repeatedly while in combat mode.  And that takes a lot of extra time.  It actually took several hours for us to finally get to Everling, probably just as long as it would take a full group at the appropriate level to do it in fact.  And by that time one of my friends was completely naked LOL.  So don't get your panties in such a wad, it's not really all it's cracked up to be.  And just because you happen to see a high-level person helping a low-level person kill a named mob don't automatically assume that they are just some evil bot/farmer that needs to be banned from the game because you think that they are only there to ruin your fun and make uber plat for themselves.  They might just be a nice person that's only there to help a lowbie that can't find a group to get a quest done.  And if a level 60 is bored enough to spend their time PLing someone maybe that's none of your business really.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:29 PM</span></p>

[BrickyardRac]

<div>I think powerleveling is pretty lame, also.  Encounters don't give rewards when they're gray for a reason - it's unchallenging.  Someone killing yellow/orange mobs because they have the help of someone to whom the mobs are gray to means the people gaining the XP simply aren't earning it.  So they simply don't deserve it.</div><div> </div><div>About the only time I think I could see powerleveling as a legitimate option is if someone is leveling up a class they already have leveled up (can think of very few instances where that'd be the case, but I guess it could happen).  At least in that case, the player being powerleveled already knows his class.  Any other time, all powerleveling does is create players who don't really know what the hell they are doing in a proper group, because they rarely had to do it.  True, it's not as bad in EQ 2 as in FFXI, but it simply promotes sloppy gameplay.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>(I don't expect to change your mind, and I know you won't change mine, the above is just my opinion)</div>

[infernus006]

Oh you're entitled to your opinion, no dobut about that.  My only concern is that you feel the need to have people banned from the game just beause they do something you don't happen to agree with.<div></div>

[BrickyardRac]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:Oh you're entitled to your opinion, no dobut about that.  My only concern is that you feel the need to have people banned from the game just beause they do something you don't happen to agree with.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Like me thinking that is gonna make it happen?</div><div> </div><div>If I were in charge of EQ 2, I could see how my opinion would concern you.  But then again, if I were in charge, I'd have never unlocked encounters in the first place.  If you, your group or your raid can't handle an encounter, quite simply you don't deserve any reward from it. </div><div> </div><div>But then again, if I were a dev, I'd take a month (like February), and I'd have some staffers order in-game money from places like IGE, and then I'd check out the account of who sent the money in-game, and ban that account (and any IP it played from), as well as the accounts of anyone who that account sent in-game money to.  I know SOE won't do that (the money buyers pay the montly fee, just the same as the money sellers, and that's quite a bit of income they'd be banning), but I would.  But as a game producer, one of my concerns would be that my game was viewed as being as honest as possible, with regards to out of game influence (money/item/account buying/selling).</div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>By the way, it's not like you can realistically PL someone all the way from teir 1 to teir 6.  I need them to be at least level 20 and then once they get to 40 it's pretty much pointless after that except for getting quests done, but not for XP.  And then it's not like I'm going to PL them all the way from 20 to 40 either.  I'm not quite THAT bored, LOL.  They are still going to be grouping with people their own level the vast majority of the time.  So they are still going to have to have ample opportunity to learn their class.  It's only something I do once in a while to help them bust out a few extra levels when I don't have anything better to do.  And I do it as a favor for my guildmates, not to use them to farm plat for myself.  Most of the drops we get don't even sell for that much anyway.  But since our guild is so small and we have so few people around my level it's in my interest to help them get leveled up a bit faster so then we can actually do things together that we are supposed to be able to.  It's also the only real way for me to get to know my lower-level guildmates and actually do stuff with them because I hate mentoring.<i>"If you, your group or your raid can't handle an encounter, quite simply you don't deserve any reward from it."</i>All epic encounters are still auto-locked.In any case I'm not really trying to justify it to you.  Technically it is wrong, I know that.  But I don't understand why SoE allowed this if they really didn't want it to happen at all.  They should have known better.  And as long as it is is allowed I don't feel guilty about taking advantage of it.  It is sad though when people go to far with it and actually cause hardships for others in the process, I do agree that is a vey bad thing.  But then the question is how to stop that from happening without punishing everyone else that is not really causing any harm by it?<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:18 PM</span></p>

[su]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>85% of All servers are farmers and  we need to unite! I dont sell falbes, masters, and other rares on ebay or thirdparty sites. I sell on the eq2 broker  to other players on my server and alot of rares I may had the luck to get I give to guild memebrs for Free!  And I did farm to get a horse at lower lv but. And i did get 2-3 difrent horses till i had enuff for the best You can buy without a uber guild.</div><div> </div><div> After finaly getting my horse I wanted,  The coin making first phase was just over ..I stilll had to get all adpet3s bought from crafters. With the coin  I have earned  working hard killing non names and names for rares a vender junk..</div><div> </div><div> Crafters need farmers just like we farmers need them..They need us to make the bling<coin> to buy There stuff they need us to harvest rares so They can buy from the broker and saves them hours if not weeks of time.</div><div> </div><div>I still had to get masters after that or atleast make enuff coin to buy from broker from my fellow farmers. WE all need each other weather you like it or not ..Every 10 -12 lvs you have to repeat all the adept3 master n legendary-falbe gear from lv20-60 and soon after kos release us lv 60 will have to repeat all the farming steps to get next tier adept3 or masters, falbes,  legendary gear ect..Which I am very happy to do cuz it gives me something to do besides quests and trying to get the 13 year old to understand what the consept of what teamwork means!</div><div> </div><div>I am glad the poster of this post has came out and  I do the same thing he does on my server. I never ever farm a place I see people xping at I will move on do a quest or xp or harvest and come back another time after those poeple had finished, xping ,farming ,quest, or whatever they where doing.</div><div> </div><div>Like I said 85% of all servers are farmers and the rest are crafters ,wich I enjoy you silly crafters =)</div><div> </div><div>Then the small little tiny % left are the moma boys that are to lazy to make there own coin and want moma to hold there hand there hole live and have others pay all there bills.. get out ther and work and you will see those fables legendaries and masters. If you cant beat us you might as well join us! Come to the light my freinds.</div><div> </div><div>Edited for the recknecks that dont understand street slang.</div><p>Message Edited by sule on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:43 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by sule on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:51 AM</span></p>

[Cidal]

<div></div>omg... that was one of the toughest reads I can remember in a long time.

[thark]

<div>Please reinstate locked encounters..and stop this nonsence...</div><div> </div><div>The good things we got with locked encounters by far outweights the bad, they still could make it so you could let people assist with a heal in need etc...</div><div> </div><div>People camping invisible in every dungeon was a big thing EQ2 wanted away with, but now it has these problems again.</div><div> </div><div>And now with the increased drops , there is even more of a reason to monopolise a dungeon..</div><div> </div><div>If they inplement the locked encounters again atleast players need to play at normal difficulty, not a level 60 that stands beside nuking.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[thark]

<div><div>Sule Wrote:</div><div> </div><div>"Then the small little tiny % left are the moma boys that are to lazy to make there own coin and want moma to hold there hand there hole live and have others pay all there bills.. get out ther and work and you will see those fables legendaries and masters. If you cant beat us you might as well join us! Come to the light my freinds."</div><div> </div><div>Hmm..To lazy ?</div><div> </div><div> What about those that really like to adventure ? Have fun ? Do quests without being stopped by a stupid botter or farmer to enjoy their game..It's not that I don't accept other players in the dungeon, but this farming attitude is far from an good experience, there may be so called "good etics" farmers as many has claimed etc but most of them are far from friendly... Most of them doesn't even respond to tells because this will interuppt their stupid playstyle.</div><div> </div><div>Youy claim to be good for giving us something to buy...What a load of crap, all you want is a boatload of plats, doesn't matter how you get them, only that you will get them fast...This destroys the "legendary" on legendary and fabled  items and most master spells should really have this name changed to common...</div><div> </div><div>/Rigg</div></div>

[su]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>NEWs FLASh u need boat loads of plat for good stuff  as a tank I cannot  take the hits of raid mobs with treasured gear.</p><p>AND I am a crafted  myself just dont like to do it that much id rather adventure out into dougens and earn my coin that way..while i wait 5 months for something i crafted to sell even as the lowest price on broekr or ooc sells</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by sule on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:28 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by sule on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:32 AM</span></p>

[Dalick]

<div></div><div>Live Update 19c</div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** New Character Progression ***</font></strong>- Many changes, fixes, and polish have been made to the tutorial islands, cities, and adventure yards.- There are now new race portraits at character creation.- All upgradeable Combat Arts and Spells below level 10 are now available from the scribe shop in your district/village.- Players who are currently Betraying their cities should seek out their class trainer in their new city when they have finished in order to gain citizenship.- There are now spell and combat art merchants on both starting islands.- The coming of sunlight will no longer KS you in the Freeport Adventure Yards.- Some of the island trainers now provide more thorough descriptions.- Alas, the denizens of Norrath have become a bit less flirtatious when greeting players.- The Antonia Bayle and Lucan D'Lere statues on the islands will now speak.<b>Combat:</b>- NPCs should no longer go stealth or invisible while they are in combat.- Set level 1 base damage table to 2 points of damage instead of 1.- Added missing Brigand (2) Back Attack and Swashbuckler (2) Spine Attack.- Added "Stance:" in front of all combat arts that are considered stances. They used to be missing for Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, and Swashbuckler arts.- Defilers shouldn't spend as much health as they used to for low level heals.- Damage and heal over time spells should do at least 1 point of damage/healing per tick.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Dungeon Exploration ***</b></font>- More appearances have been added for items within Solusek's Eye.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Desert of Flames ***</b></font>- Tensions between the Ashen Order and the Ashen Disciples seem to be growing. The two orders have become more distinct in their appearance, philosophy, and combat techniques.- The Djinn Master has mysteriously changed the way he works. He has grounded himself instead of insisting on hovering and the instruments within are no easier to play. Other changes to the way he must be fought are known only to the Djinn Master himself.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Gameplay ***</b></font>- Frogloks have recovered their aqua vision.- Erudites have recovered their aura sense.- Jumping now cancels crouching and sitting.- Characters with Arena Champions statistics should no longer crash zones.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Items ***</b></font>- Throwing weapons can now reside within any type of ammo pouch.- Ammo bags in your base inventory will now accept ranged ammunition before other inventory bags.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Quests ***</b></font>- Commissioner Dogweed will now ask adventurers to slay Stone Hive guardians instead of bixies.- Heritage quests have had their status awards modified to be based on the level of the heritage quest only.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Zones and Population ***</b></font>- Quest givers will no longer hail players with VO repeatedly. Hello hello hello.- Most creatures are no longer immune to certain damage types.  Many will have retained high resistance to particular forms of damage but should no longer be completely immune.<font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Combat ***</b></font><font color="#ff6600">- Any creature that would aggro a player when solo will aggro that player regardless of the level of group members. Creatures that would not aggro a player when solo will not aggro that player regardless of the level of group members.</font>- There is no longer a base NPC in-combat regen. This was causing issues a low levels yet was insignificant for low levels, so it was removed. Note that spell-based NPC regens will still function normally.- Charm spells will no longer be broken if the caster loses a duel.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>This will at the very least slow them down since they wont be able to grey out the zone to run from named to name.</div><div> </div><div>Happy hunting/Farming</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[dom4]

The new changes will just force high lvl players to find someone just the right lvl to sit at the entrance and wait to be mentored.  Wait, that's what they do now.  So much for that idea.As far as farming goes, I don't see why people bother with these kinds of tactics.  If you need to bring a higher or lower level partner along to use these sorta-like-cheating tactics then you're in the wrong dungeon.  I'm all for soloing named mobs to get loot.  It beats the hell out of harvesting for hours on end.  But if you walk into RoV and every named in the place can kill you easily, go somewhere else.  Stormhold and Fallen Gate come to mind.  And if you walk into RoV and everything is grey, again, go somewhere else.  Move up to Runnyeye or whatever is apropriate for your lvl. Farming is an important part of any game's economy and is the reason why there's so much good stuff for sale on the broker.  Odds are that if a fabled chest piece drops when a group kills a mob, someone in the group is going to need/want it.  Some people just get a little too excited about it and they do a lot of stupid stuff.  The only solution to the problem of high level players ruining zones with their excessive farming around exp groups is to BAN ALL STUPID PEOPLE.  Seriously though, ignorance and lack of respect are what hurt the game.  The OP sounds like a decent person and I'm all for that sort of player doing their thing.  But the guy in the clefts of rujark who likes to drop invis and use his lowest aggro attack a split second before the tank in a group taunts a named mob in order to get the loot without having to fight needs to be hung by his toenails over the entrance like an ugly pinata.<div></div>

[Jgok]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:I usually price necro or conjuror spells at 80 gold, as they are mostly farmers anyway and are likely to have much more money (yea, some are legit but we all know who good those two classes can farm heroic mobs).<hr></blockquote><p>OK, THAT is INSULTING to most Summoners out there... Just because of our class choice, we're mostly farmers anyway?</p><p>Yes, I farm loot, just like most people do. The fact of the matter is, there are several classes that are equally as good at farming named encounters, and some that are better. Reasoning like this is why I can get T3 Masters for my Dirge for 12g, but the level 20 Conjuror Fire pet or level 24 Earth pet costs 1 plat or more on the Permafrost server.</p><p>My Conjuror has 74g on him right now, and he's level 59. He has ONE Fabled item equipped (Yeddahd's Caduecus), and ONE Master spell (Phlogiston). He has not been able to afford to buy any Master previously unless it was 20 levels grey to him, simply because they're always 50g-1p more than other class' Master spells on the broker.</p><p>By contrast, my 48 Paladin has 6 Masters (4 of which actually dropped in groups that he was tanking for, the other two purchased), plus two Fabled weapons and a Fabled shield (all but the 1-H weapon dropped in groups for him). My 30 Dirge has 13 Masters, simply because they're going for the low, low price of 12g for a T3 spell... which is cheaper than my Sage can craft an adept 3.</p><p>Fabled for Summoners (or any other Mage, really) does not seem to drop that often to start with, and the prices are always driven up by the 'they're all farmers anyway' mentality.</p><p>Sorry to rant, but that statement burned my bottom.</p>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TheBladesCaress wrote:All farmers say the reason they do it is to afford a horse.  Yet, they farm for weeks and weeks.  Long enough to have been able to buy that horse.I know one farmer on my server, just keeps creating characters to farm with, once he gets too high for RE, he moves onto his next 2 toons.  He has been doing ti for 12 weeks, yet his excuse is that he wants to buy a horse.  He has pages of Masters for sale.  It is all lies.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wow.... he doesn't know you can shut off the XP bar and stop leveling? Farmers = suck. It is so easy to make enough for a horse in a few days in this game it's silly. I have to admit I can't wait to have time to go "farm" in RE when my alts are big enough, but I still would never flood the market. Mostly I want to get masters for myself and friend's up and coming alts. If I had extras to sell, I wouldn't put up more than 1 of the same one at a time.. being a 60 provisioner I'm disgusted with people who farm and TS bot for the sake of flooding the markets. (sorry but if you have 10 stacks of mental core breeches up you are going to have a hard time convincing me you are a real player or one who does not bot).</p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><i>"But the guy in the clefts of rujark who likes to drop invis and use his lowest aggro attack a split second before the tank in a group taunts a named mob in order to get the loot without having to fight needs to be hung by his toenails over the entrance like an ugly pinata."</i>I agree that is a very crappy thing to do.  But that is a totally different problem from the one they are addressing here.  Stealing a mob from someone that was obviously there for it first and farming mobs that are not being specifically camped by anyone are two totally different things.  And that's why you still have the option of autolocking your encounters if you really want to, to prevent things like that from happening.But the point is not everyone wants to have all their encounters locked all of the time.  That's why they changed it so you can unlock them.  IMO the people who have a problem with that are just plain nosey.I just love how some people try to act like farmers are the root of all evil in this game while they are prefectly innocent.  The truth is everyone has fun farming named mobs to get XP as well as nice loot for themsleves, their alts, and/or guildies and to sell on the broker and make plat.  Everyone does it at some point, to some extent, whether they want to admit it or not.  Not that it's a crime either.  If they say they don't every do it then they are lying.  Either that or they just really suck at the game and want it made easier for themselves while screwing over other people that actually know how to play the game and get what they want.The real problem though is that non-instanced dungeons can oftentimes get very crowded and the competition for the names can be very high.  And maybe not everyone gets as much of a chance at the names as some others do so they get frustrated.  That's understandable.  But guess what...they made the game that way on purpose.  You are supposed to have to compete with other people in the game to get what you want sometimes.  That's the way it is.  It's a MMO.  And you may try to say that you're not supposed to have to compete with a level 60 in a level 30 zone...well says who?  In that case I guess you have a problem with any higher level person being in any zone where the mobs are gray to them even if it's just to harvest nodes for crafting or to kill mobs they need to finish old quests for themselves?  I mean really...why should you have to compete with someone for nodes that doesn't have to fight through the same aggro to get to the same place as you?  Because then they can hog up all the nodes and you get screwed, right?  It's the same concept.  But it's because they are higher level and they earned the right to do that whether you like it or not.  There's nothing you can do about it.  The same applies to dungeons and harvesting names for loot IMO.  You know, some people actually like to go back and visit old zones they outgrew for nostalgic reasons.  And if they can help out a friend in the process, why not?  But maybe you would like for them to make it so no one after a certain level can go back into any old zone with mobs that con gray to them anymore.  As in the game won't even let them zone in because they are too high.  Would that make you happy?  Oh I'm sure it would.  Until you get to higher levels and want to do the same thing...then you'll find that you've screwed yourself.It seems like to me a lot of the people supporting these types of changes that are supposed to prevent farming are really not so much against farming itself but actually they are just happy that it may deter some of their competition so they can get more loot for themselves.  Because they are just as greedy if not more greedy than any so-called farmer.  And they don't care about the people they are screwing over because in their minds having someome assist another person outside of a group is "cheating" so they deserve it.  Well it's not cheating because SOE specifically allowed it.  And in reality a lower level person that is being helped by a higher level person doesn't really have that much extra chance at any of the names in any zone than a full group of people at the "appropriate" level.  Because in most cases a group of same levels can use invis to get where they want without having to fight there just as quicky as someone who has the mobs grayed out for them.  And a group of same levels can actually pull mobs faster while the low level/high level duo have to time their pulls just right, especially on tough names.  Well now with this change a person that's being helped by a higher level person will just have to do the same thing as everyone else at their level and use invis instead of having the mobs grayed out and the high level will have to hold back more on their DPS.  Not that big of a deal really.  They will still get to farm together.  But now no one else in the game will have the option of having a high level person gray out mobs for them anymore, for any reason, whether it is for farming or not, and anyone that gets outside help on a mob, whether they asked for it or not, can get cheated out of their loot and XP.  Way to go.  All because we have some whiny crybabies that are jealous of lowbies with high level friends that are willing to help them out.  That's what it all boils down to.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:17 PM</span></p>

[Nibbl]

<div>Long live the farmers!</div><div> </div><div>SoE knew the changes would be used to power level and farm.  Like another poster stated, it allows people to get levels fasters for the new content, its all about real money for SoE.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Aeroslin]

I guess I'll say what others are not going to...We all farm in one way or another.   When I was moving my main through the game the first time, all the zones were new and exciting.  We didn't know when or where the next opportunity would be to get a named encounter and see what loot it dropped.  Basically, this resulted in my first toon to zoom through the game pretty quickly mainly due to going into a zone one time, checking it out, getting the quest items I needed, then leaving.  Now I'm going through my second time and before hitting level 30, I had found my first fabled item that wasn't a spell, really nice Javelin from Vermins (I'm almost level 40 and still use that javelin because the stats on it beat anything up to level 40 fabled or legendary).  Since that time I have made it a point to take more time in the zones to see what names popped and what they dropped.  The results of taking more time in the zones is that my 2nd toon is way better equiped than my first one.  Those Tribal Leggings from RE are the bomb for my mystic.  When they dropped the first time, the group I was in decided to stick around the area for a while until everyone that could use got those leggings.  I've not sold a single master spell simply because they are better to distribute to guild members.  When we're together, there are 3 players, 3 accounts, 3 people, seperate from each other that run around together.  I guess we could be considered farmers and the bane to everyone.  We're just wanting to get as much out of the zone as we can.  Re-equiping in legendary or fabled items that we get from a fight, to us, is a hard earned reward whether the encounter is easy or not.  I don't think such rewards should be limited to raid instances. So really, those that see what me and my group is doing as wrong, what do you expect  us to do? The quest items for our level suck, legendary and fabled equipment is always better.  Should we just sit at the brokers and wait for YOU to get the item and then overcharge us for it later? No, I don't think so.  There's a very fine line here... If you and I run into the same room with our group and there is a named mob that neither of us need but drops a good chest, if I get the pull and the chest, I'm a farmer and hated.  If you get the pull and the chest then that's what I'm going to think of you.The one thing that I would like to see and it would no doubt irritate many, it for quest mobs to either not drop chests at all, or have a very low probability, or better yet, only drop chests if it's killed by someone that needs the mob.<div></div>

[Cheopis]

<div></div><div></div><p>Bah, if you want farmers to go away, all Sony needs to do is implement a system where something incredibly tough will be summoned by the poor pitiful critters that are being farmed.</p><p> </p><p>If a farmer is camping Runnyeye, and not even close to getting exp for it, have a goblin avatar of whatever gods goblins worship appear after the farmed critter is attacked and (immediately) casts an instant spell.  Have this critter be Hugely overpowered, and drop no loot.  Have it be mean and nasty enough to kick a raid of lvl 60's, and have it smack the crap out of the farmer, then despawn.  If there happens to be a group of players in the same room that could gain exp from the mob that the farmer was farming, have the summoned critter stare at them, then stare at the NPC, and say something like "These are yours to handle" then despawn.  But if a lvl 60 pops the NPC or heals/buffs the group, the NPC would again pop that instant and the Avatar woudl smash the offending farmer again.</p><p>This would need to be a non-rezzable corpse, else multiple lvl 60 rez-capable folks could work together with a low level farm group, healing and dying as necessary.  Painful, but there may be some farm camps where they would think it to be worth it.</p><p>A similar mechanic to this was in effect for the old world dragone in EQ1 - if you were over a certain level, they would toss you on your ear with a teleport if you engaged them or cast spells on players actively fighting them.  Here I think it would be better to just smack them hard.  Sure lvl 60's could buff a group to make killing the farmed critter easier to kill, but if the group is able to get exp, or near to being able to get exp at least, then they will still have to work to kill the named.  It won't be "Instant smackdown, next target please."  So if farmers want to farm, they will not be able to do it with massively overpowered characters as compared to the farmed NPC's</p><p>This could be easily implemented.  It won't work perfectly, those who cheat the system will find ways to continue cheating the system, but it will virtually eliminate the lvl 60 solo farmers, with the exception of critters that can be killed with a single spell before they can cast an instant, though of course, the one shot kill of a npc by someone who cannot get exp from them might again spawn that avatar...</p><p> </p><p>In essence I say give the farmers a taste of their own medicine, instead of lvl 60 farmer smacking lvl 40 NPC, have the lvl 80 Heroic ^^^ smack the lvl 60 farmer - but only if they attack the named, or buff/heal during the fight with the named.  If they want to sit and watch, cool.</p><p>Heck, maybe even add a bit of humor and have the Avatar approach a non-farming lvl 60 player in the room when the real fight is going on, and offer a quest - a bet on the outcome of the fight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>If the Avatar wins the bet, the player loses nothing, if the player wins the bet, reward something (lore, nodrop) that can be turned in to Freeport or Qeynos Priest's guild for a respectable amount of tradeskill components (but not rares)</p><p>Allow the player to bet either way on the fight too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The Avatar, if it stays spawned, would need to be non-aggro - even if attacked by AE.  It should aggro only based on actions taken, not any damage it might take.  In fact it might even say something like.  "Good power in that spell" or "A mighty blow indeed" or some such if accidentally hit.</p><p>My idea might not be the best one, but I think it's better than what exists right now.  Not only that, but I would just love to be in the room the first time a goblin avatar smashes a lvl 60 farmer flat <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Cheopis on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:19 AM</span></p>

[Gooos]

I might just be missing something, and feel I have not reached end game at all since my Highest level is only 56, but isn't the end game (till level cap is raised each time) farming raid zones for better gear?  If that is the case how can you make farming againsta the EULA? Please do not get me wrong I am all for stopping the farming, and I have read several great suggestions here (but I have no idea of hard or easy any would be to code any of them, other than going back to all encounters locked, which the code is already there for),  I just see this solution as a sorta oxy [Removed for Content]....<div></div>

[Cheopis]

<div></div>Actually after thinking a minute, a statue of the avatar that would be summoned by the denizens of the dungeon could be placed at the entry of the dungeon.  If it has a quest symbol over it's head, you or your group will be avatar bait if you attack named enemies (peons and non-named would be fair game to all).  Clicking the statue of the avatar would start a quest where you would be eligible for meeting (and gambling with, perhaps) the _actual_ avatar in rooms with named, when _other_ people are fighting there.

[Cheopis]

<div></div>Goosie, if you were referring to my idea, it would not stop normal progression "farming".  If you are able to get exp from what you are fighting, or are perhaps just a little over the level where it would give exp, the avatar would never intervene.

[Pashta]

<div></div>  This thread is way out of hand.  The developers don't need to be told how to make their game.  Knock it off, please.

[Cheopis]

<div></div>Pashta I have just as much right to throw out ideas as you have to criticize me for throwing them out. Feel free to continue telling me to stop, but know that I will continue offering suggestions and discussion regardless of what you say.  If the moderators think the thread is out of hand, they will moderate.  That's their job, not yours.

[Gooos]

<div></div><div>I pretty much feel that if you can gain experience then go forth and kill it, I do not see a problem if it is a group or person doing a circuit in a dungeon and keeps killing the same critters and named over and over while they level, so be it, unless it involves a quest mob. Quest mobs should not drop loot, if they drop no loot no need to farm it, and usually for quest you get loot anyways. What in my opinion the problem is, is when a high level kills the named after a low level gets the first hit in. They go back to group and move safely to the next named break group rinse and repeat. Auto encounter locking will stop that. Auto encounter locking will also stop power leveling where a lower level attacks a critter and the higher level out of group taunts the mob off the lower level, allowing the lower level to safely kill higher level heroics and level pretty fast. With what I read of agro changes coming this hopefully will not work anymore. And the agro changes will make it a bit harder on the farmers, but will not stop it. If higher levels can not take agro away they just chain/root and DPS it to death before it kills the low level. Once again in a great game with some things that just amaze me, which makes me think there are some really great and intelligent devs, why do they not address problems sooner, come up with a better solution that affects the targeted action more than the rest of the community, and hopefully does not cause tons of other problems (Bugs happen unfortunately).</div>

[Aeroslin]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Cheopis wrote:<div></div>Goosie, if you were referring to my idea, it would not stop normal progression "farming".  If you are able to get exp from what you are fighting, or are perhaps just a little over the level where it would give exp, the avatar would never intervene.<hr></blockquote>Your idea is really funny and appeals to my sense of revenge.  Won't happen but the thought is certainly a calming one to say the least.Imagine the 'avatar' being a half pint ratonga with the only equipment on it being those insta kill dev goggles that do 145% of max health of target in damage instantly.  Or better yet, take them down to unconsiousness and pluck em over and over so they're not quite dead, but can't do anything but sit there waiting for a death that never comes.  Ohhh, just too mean.</span></div>

[StormCinder]

<div></div><div>I don't farm...consider myself an RPer...too low-level to make a diff to me anyway.  I don't see anything wrong with farming, but like I said I am low-level.  It just seems to me that given the myriad of people that play the game, you're going to get a wide array of goals:</div><div> </div><div>1)  PL - "I play to get chars to highest level possible as fast as possible"</div><div>2)  Content junkie - "Gotta see every zone and every NPC"</div><div>3)  RP - "Play to develop a char with backstory"</div><div>4)  Accumulation of plat/items - "I measure success by money in the bank or items in my house"</div><div> </div><div>Kinda like RL.  All legit goals, and the overlap between them is sure to cause friction. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>As has been mentioned in several posts, there's not really a way to implement a change that would not cause collateral damage to non-farmers. </div><div> </div><div>How about limiting the number of items any account and/or char can have for sale on the broker?  Get drastic and say that any char can only have 5 items on the broker at any one time?  Would certainly slow the economy down in general, but would surely cool the farming.</div><div> </div><div>SC</div><div> </div><div>PS.  I probably play more as a type (5)--loser--I play to escape my otherwise tragic and pathetic RL :smileywink:  jk</div>

[Pashta]

<div></div> I'm just sick of seeing all of these posts with everyone's crazy ideas on what the devs should do.  If you all want to continue to dream up these far-fetched ideas of how the game should be, so be it.  I know if I was a dev I wouldn't look at this particular thread for ideas on game improvement, however lol.

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Pashta, these treads are full of "crazy" ideas and I'm sure that developers take a gander here on a regular basis.  People post their ideas about the game because we care about the game and want to see it better.  We are a passionate bunch and we all have opinions.  That is what these forums are for. </p><p>To save yourself the heartache, just skip the threads that cause you pain.</p><p>And keep the crazy ideas coming.  I love these discussions.....:smileyhappy:</p>

[Laenai]

<div>Heh...I have a funny story so far as harvesting bots go.</div><div> </div><div>My 5 year-old has a toon that mommy graciously leveled up so she could at least run around Antonica and not get eaten. She LOVES to harvest for some god forsaken reason. Of course, she can't read to answer tells, she has all of her group/guild/trade options turned off, and I used to keep her listed as /afk because...well...I didn't want people to try and send her tells.</div><div> </div><div>She was playing the other day and got tell after tell after tell from some other player threatening to report her because they had watched her run around ant for days harvesting and decided she was a bot/farmer. Now I've had to keep a description of information in her bio about how she isn't a bot, she's a 5 year-old who can't read and likes to watch the lady chop wood.</div><div> </div><div>And if you'd think she'd be my own personal little harvester, think again! She's convinced that the 15 full stacks of maple she has is for a quest and "No, mommy! You can't have any because I need it!"</div>

[JudyJudy]

<div></div><p><em>LOL</em></p><p><em>Too funny!  :smileyvery-happy:</em></p>

[infernus006]

^ Good point.  It seems like way too many people in this game are just looking to get other people in trouble when they aren't even doing anything wrong, just to try and gid rid of some of the competion for what they want.  I have a story to share as well.  One day I was helping a good friend of mine get his SBH quest done.  This was before the DoF expansion and LU13 came out.  I was level 50 at the time which was still the level cap and all encounters were still autolocked.  My friend was in his low 40s.  We got to the last part of the quest where you have to kill that T'Sanne guy in the Gul'Thex Citadel in Nek Forest.  And this was also back when it look about 4 hours to spawn him.  When we got there no one else was there so we started camping him.  We had spent at least a couple of hours killing all the gray skellies in that little area while we were waiting for the PH's to pop for the name (to work on our Destroyer of Undead titles if nothing else) when this group of level 30s came in.  They actually tried to force us to mentor them so they could get quest credit for the name.  We said no because we didn't even know them and we had no desire to mentor down to the 30's to get the quest done.  Plus they were rude.  So we ignored them and continued about our business and we eventually got the name but they stayed there and bugged us for the rest of the time we were there, threatening to "report" us and get us banned from the game.  For what, I have no idea.  It was the most riduculous thing I ever saw.<div></div>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote: They actually tried to force us to mentor them so they could get quest credit for the name.  We said no because we didn't even know them and we had no desire to mentor down to the 30's to get the quest done.  Plus they were rude.  So we ignored them and continued about our business and we eventually got the name but they stayed there and bugged us for the rest of the time we were there, threatening to "report" us and get us banned from the game.  For what, I have no idea.  It was the most riduculous thing I ever saw.<div></div><hr></blockquote> That sounds pretty mean on your part.  If it took hours to pop, why wouldn't you let the other people in so they can get credit too, other than being selfish?  I think they had a reason to be upset.  Report you, no... but lose respect for you and your guild, yes.

[OddAngel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote: They actually tried to force us to mentor them so they could get quest credit for the name.  We said no because we didn't even know them and we had no desire to mentor down to the 30's to get the quest done.  Plus they were rude.  So we ignored them and continued about our business and we eventually got the name but they stayed there and bugged us for the rest of the time we were there, threatening to "report" us and get us banned from the game.  For what, I have no idea.  It was the most riduculous thing I ever saw.<div></div><hr></blockquote> That sounds pretty mean on your part.  If it took hours to pop, why wouldn't you let the other people in so they can get credit too, other than being selfish?  I think they had a reason to be upset.  Report you, no... but lose respect for you and your guild, yes.<hr></blockquote><p>I've said it here many times - no one is guaranteed access to named content whenever they want. It is and always will be first come first serve.</p><p>In this case the original campers - who had no doubt been there a LONG time (I remember this quest)- had no desire or requirement to mentor down nor did the need to give up their camp. THey were there already, the other group just has to wait.</p><p>Plus, if the were rude to start off with, which happens A LOT when a lower level toon finds higher levels camping a named, then I can see why they ignored them. If I am camping a named, and someone comes up to me being rude and making demands without  provocation I instantly put them on iggy, THey can complain all they want, and I will go about my business.</p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Pastha,Yeah I guess you missed the part where I said they were being rude to us right from the start.  They just waltzed into our camp and demanded that we mentor them and after we politely told them no they stayed and continued to harass us the entire time.  Not only did they threaten to report us to GMs but they also said they might try and steal the mob as soon as it popped and slander our names on the forums as well.  They were literally trying to bully us into getting their way.  Yeah like I should really want to help people like that.  Well we refused to give into them and chose to stand up for ourselves instead.  Excuse me if that is such a crime.  Plus they were only in their low 30s and if you ever did SBH you would know that T'Sanne is a very mean guy at that level.  So it's not that we just wanted to be mean to them and not let them get their quest update, the fact is we did not feel like mentoring down to their level to make that possible and then risk wiping on the mob when it did finally pop and then losing it to another group that could come strolling by at any time while we were in the process of reviving.  At our levels we were guaranteed to be able to kill that mob with no trouble and we liked it that way.FYI, my friend was a mage so he never bothered doing the quest to get the item from it at the intended level because he never had any actual use for it, he just wanted to get it done for his Relic Keeper title and to get a little XP for our guild.  Plus, like I said, we were chain killing the other skellies that roam around inside that building to work on getting our Destroyer of Undead titles while we waited for the name to pop too.  Of course that goes much faster and easier when the mobs are gray.Anyways my whole point is that there are way too many lowbies in this game nowadays that have absolutely no respect for people of higher levels and will do and say to them whatever they please to get their way no matter how inconsiderate it is like we are nothing but a piece of trash in their way.  As if we have no right to be in "their" zones.  Whatever.  We have just as much right to be there if not more since we earned it.Furthermore, I hate mentoring.  I rarely even do it for my good friends and guildies let alone complete strangers that just happen to come along while I am trying to get something done on my own.  So you can call me mean all you want but I don't care because I know that I am never required to mentor anyone in this game at any time for any reason and if I don't feel like doing it then that is just too bad.  In fact, mentoring is supposed to be something that a person does as a huge favor for another person since the person mentoring has to be put up with having all of their abilities seriously nerfed and having to rearrange all their hotbars to use lower tier spells as well not to mention the huge reduction in the amount of XP they get while the person being mentored gets a 5% XP bonus from it.  I say screw that.  In any case it's definitely not something you just go around demanding total strangers to do for you just so you can get a quest update from a mob that's already being camped by people that you are too high for you to be grouped with otherwise.  That is just plain rude.Another thing I would like to point out is that if this situation had occured after LU13 when they allowed unlocked encounters then my friend would have probably went ahead and mentored them and I would have tanked the name from outside the group and everyone would have been happy because then everyone would have gotten their quest update that needed it and we wouldn't have had to worry about risking a group wipe and possibly losing our camp when we didn't need to without mentoring so then that huge fight would have been completely avoided.  I think this is something you silly farmer-haters should take into serious consideration before screaming at the devs to nerf the game and make it so that there is no way for a high level person to help a low level person get anything done.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:48 AM</span></p>

[Cheopis]

<div></div><p>Heh, Karimonster, if you play a toon on another computer while your little one plays, you might want to put an afk message "Send Tell to <x> The person at this account cannot read."</p><p>That is if the game allows custom AFK messages, I have not tried to create one.</p>

[Jgok]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cheopis wrote:<div></div><p>Heh, Karimonster, if you play a toon on another computer while your little one plays, you might want to put an afk message "Send Tell to The person at this account cannot read."</p><p>That is if the game allows custom AFK messages, I have not tried to create one.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It does... Just type...</p><p>/afk (message)</p><p>without the parenthesis</p>

[Pashta]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Pastha,Yeah I guess you missed the part where I said they were being rude to us right from the start.  They just waltzed into our camp and demanded that we mentor them and after we politely told them no they stayed and continued to harass us the entire time. Furthermore, I hate mentoring.  <snip>  In fact, mentoring is supposed to be something that a person does as a huge favor for another person since the person mentoring has to be put up with having all of their abilities seriously nerfed and having to rearrange all their hotbars to use lower tier spells as well not to mention the huge reduction in the amount of XP they get while the person being mentored gets a 5% XP bonus from it.  I say screw that. <hr></blockquote><p> Well, if they were rude to begin with I don't blame you, but it's hard to believe someone would come up to you and say "Mentor us NOW [Removed for Content]! we want this mob too!"  (lol.. gotta laugh at myself there.)  But if that was the case, then they deserved it.  If not, it would be mean.</p><p> As for mentoring, I totally understand.  Yes it WAS a big ol' pain in the butt, but they changed that with LU19 just yesterday, WOOT WOOT WTG DEVS!!.  Just so you know, it all automatically adjusts now so you don't have to fool with your icons or spells anymore, everything adjusts, even your current buffs so you don't even have to recast them.  Oh and you don't get less xp, the xp adjusts as if you were getting it for your level.</p><p>Edit:  BTW, yes I did do the SBH heritage quest, and there was a group there camping it.  I asked them politely if my husband and I could join them, and they took us in and the highest guy mentored.  We all got credit...</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Pashta on <span class="date_text">02-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

<div></div>I'm just saying that if a mob you need is already being camped by people that are too high for you to group with and still get credit without them having to mentor you and if they don't feel like mentoring then it is their right to say no and it is not right for you to keep bugging them about it.In the situation I described earlier, I even told those people that I would have had no problem inviting them them into my group if they were level 38 (the minimum level that is required to group with a level 50) but since none of them where then that was just too bad for them.  I tried to be as polite about is as I could but then they got hostile about it so then I really didn't want to help them at all.Furthermore I am aware of the changes they made to mentoring in the last update and I agree that is a good step foward but I am still not happy and I will never be happy with mentoring until they change it so that you can choose what level you want to mentor down to.  The reason is because, for example, if a level 38 person needs help doing a quest and they find a level 60 person that's willing to help them do it the only choice the level 60 person has (other than helping them fight the mobs without actually being grouped with them) is to mentor all the way down to their level.  Well maybe a level 60 person doesn't feel like being nerfed down that low to help the person out and maybe two level 38 people are not capable of completing the quest anyway.  And why should they have to do that when a level 38 person can group with a level 50 person without them being forced to mentor at all?  So in that case it is actually more beneficial for a level 38 person to get the help of a level 50 person rather than a level 60 one.  IMO that is wrong and I will abstain from mentoring until they fix that.  I believe that a level 60 person should have the choice to mentor down to level 50 in order to help a level 38 person without having to find an actual level 50 person to group with them so that he mentor them instead in order be in the best position he can to help his friend when that is not even the person that he is trying to help.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:45 PM</span></p>

[Jgok]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Well, if they were rude to begin with I don't blame you, but it's hard to believe someone would come up to you and say "Mentor us NOW [Removed for Content]! we want this mob too!"  (lol.. gotta laugh at myself there.) </p><hr></blockquote><p>Heh, laugh all you want, but I've had that happen to me before...</p><p>Sitting on my Paladin trying to spawn the Creator for a couple hours, I finally get him to spawn, pull him, and a group comes in and "/ooc Oh, look at the farmer stealing our mob! (The mob was gray to me, so I dunno how I was being a farmer.) That ***hole better mentor us for the kill or we'll report him!" (I'm not even going to mention what was sent to me in /tells... It was just... foul.)</p><p>Now, keep in mind...Firstly, I really don't like being called an ***hole.Secondly, I was already engaged with the mob, so I would have had to break the encounter, run him off, pray he didn't get stuck in the wall, then group with the people who were already cussing me out in /ooc, mentor, adjust my hotbars (at the time, thanks the Gods I don't have to do that now), then pull the mob again... All the time hoping that group didn't double-cross me and pull him without inviting me as soon as he reset, or someone else didn't waltz in and steal the mob.</p><p>I said no.</p><p>Had that group politely asked me to mentor them, and invited me to the group before I broke the encounter, I would have been more than happy to take the risk of someone else getting the mob, and I would have been more than hapy to mentor them so they could get credit. (Heck, half the time I'm playing, I'm helping other folks kill quest mobs for their quest credit.) The way they broached the subject, heck no.</p><p>The kept on in /ooc and /shout the whole time I was killing the mob, and they clustered around me, I guess hoping to get me to target badly and die (though the mob was almost 15 levels under me and couldn't have killed me if I'd just /afk'ed for the duration of the fight). They started pulling the other mobs in the area and parking them on top of me while they fought (of course, I just used my AEs to kill those mobs and stop the annoyance).</p><p>Farmers (and I definitely wasn't being a farmer at that time anyway) can often be rude kill-stealers, but  lot of times, the groups hunting in the area at an appropriate level are FAR worse.</p>

[infernus006]

^ Very good point.  That just goes to show that many people of lower levels actually seem to have even less respect for higher levels than they do for people around their own level that do the same exact things we do.  I bet in the situation you described if the group of people that were harassing you for killing that name saw another group around their same level killing the same mob they would not have said one word about it.  And they try to use mentoring as an excuse to harass us if they don't get their way.  As if refusing to mentor someone counts as "griefing" them.  Give me a Break.  You know, it's times like that I really wish there was fully open PvP on all servers because then if a group of lowbies walked into a room where a high level was camping for a name, for whatever reason, they would just high-tail it right out of there, no questions asked.  As it should be IMO.  Or at least they would ask nicely and if they were told no they would know better than to keep bothering them about it.  They would not dare to harass them as if they were doing something wrong when they really are not.  Anyways, that is what this whole thread is really all about IMO, that's why I braught it up.  These people that want SOE to "stick it to the farmers" are really just selfish little brats that have no respect for higher level people and would rather see them "tossed out on their ear" for killing mobs in "their" zones just so they can get more loot for themselves.  Because in reality they are just as selfish and greedy if not moreso than any actual "farmers" in this game.<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:^ Very good point.  That just goes to show that many people of lower levels actually seem to have even less respect for higher levels than they do for people around their own level that do the same exact things we do.  I bet in the situation you described if the group of people that were harassing you for killing that name saw another group around their same level killing the same mob they would not have said one word about it.  And they try to use mentoring as an excuse to harass us if they don't get their way.  As if refusing to mentor someone counts as "griefing" them.  Give me a Break.  You know, it's times like that I really wish there was fully open PvP on all servers because then if a group of lowbies walked into a room where a high level was camping for a name, for whatever reason, they would just high-tail it right out of there, no questions asked.  As it should be IMO.  Or at least they would ask nicely and if they were told no they would know better than to keep bothering them about it.  They would not dare to harass them as if they were doing something wrong when they really are not.  Anyways, that is what this whole thread is really all about IMO, that's why I braught it up.  These people that want SOE to "stick it to the farmers" are really just selfish little brats that have no respect for higher level people and would rather see them "tossed out on their ear" for killing mobs in "their" zones just so they can get more loot for themselves.  Because in reality they are just as selfish and greedy if not moreso than any actual "farmers" in this game.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You gave me a big chuckle here Infernus.  Big bow of respect to your level 60 character.  I am not intending to be disrespectful......:smileywink::   I  agree that a higher level character should not be griefed by lower players.  Anyone in this game can be selfish twits.  If I was a higher level player and some rude jerks demaned that I mentor and were rude about it, I wouldn't give them the time of day.  So I agree with you on this point.  But I disgree with you about your comment of people wanting farming to stop are "selfish brats."</p><p>What I have big problems with are the high level people farming the dungeons with very low level alts to milk the dungeons dry of possible master drops.  What is even more frustrating is if you are trying to kill the named mob for a quest advance and you can't because there is a level 60 player parked there with a level 20 something (using Stormhold as an example) killing Lord Andros nonstop for master chests.  Any polite tell to this person is ignored. </p><p>I am soooo glad that SOE made the changes perhaps discouraging this non stop farming, or perhaps making it a bit harder to do.  IMHO I have no problem with high levels being in a place to complete a quest.  But once you are done, please move on and leave the place to people more suited for its level.   There is enough high level content in the game without the low level places being dominated by high level people just farming with lowbies. </p><p>And before you flame me for being selfish.  I like getting a master drop like anyone else.  But I don't stick around a place non stop farming like some do.  If our group is killing Lord Andros for example and another group comes in, we usually move on to tackle other things in SH.  Usually if I'm lucky to get a master drop, it goes to guildies anyway.  So I'm not in it to make money.  I just want to have a chance to kill the darned guy, get possible upgrades to my spells, or complete quests.  <strong><u>Without having some selfish level 60 camping the spot non stop.</u></strong></p><p> </p>

[infernus006]

<div></div>First of all, I don't expect anyone to bow down to me at all just because I'm higher level than them.  If that's what you're thinking you are wrong.  My only complaint here is about being blatently disrespected, especially by lower level people, just because I'm doing something in an area they don't think I belong in, just because of my level.  The fact is everyone has every right to be in any zone in this game at any time regardless of their level.  That's why they even removed the level restrictions on all of the high-level zones that used to have them.  Now the only concern is if you can survive there or not, not whether you are allowed there or not.  I have seen lowbies sitting at the docks in the Sinking Sands that can't go near any of the mobs, just sitting there and spamming up OOC with meaningless chat, which does annoy me quite a bit.  But do I complain to SOE about it and say they shouldn't be allowed to even zone in at all?  No I do not.  I just ignore and and go about my business.  But don't forget that this policy works both ways.<i>"What I have big problems with are the high level people farming the dungeons with very low level alts to milk the dungeons dry of possible master drops."</i>It is not possible to "milk dry" any zone of any possible master drops.  All of the mobs that are killed will repop in due time and they will always have the same chance to drop any metal chests that they had all the previous times they were killed.<i>"What is even more frustrating is if you are trying to kill the named mob for a quest advance and you can't because there is a level 60 player parked there with a level 20 something (using Stormhold as an example) killing Lord Andros nonstop for master chests.  Any polite tell to this person is ignored."</i>That is a problem with the ethics of the particular individual in that case.  You can't expect them to nerf the game for everyone just because some people are inconsiderate.  Furthermore, it has been suggested that all quest mobs have their loot tables removed entirely.  This has already been done with several quest mobs in the game already, so it's not a new concept.  I personally would not have a huge problem with that.  In any case, I can tell you that when I am camping a named mob just for the loot (ie farming) if someone that needs the quest update comes up to me and asks me if they can have it then I have no problem with either letting them have the mob to themselves outright or allowing them in my group so they can get quest credit while all of us can still have a chance at the loot that way and they will still get their update regardless.  Whichever way works best.  Never once have I never denied someone a named mob who needed it for a quest while I was just there for loot.  But that's just me.  I agree it's sad when other people refuse to show the same consideration for others in need but that's not my fault and I don't feel that I should be punished for it."<i>I am soooo glad that SOE made the changes perhaps discouraging this non stop farming, or perhaps making it a bit harder to do."</i>I can tell you that farming is going to continue to be performed by people of all levels in this game just as much as it always has been in the past, regardless of this change.  They only thing they did was make it so there is no set level at which mobs will aggro players in groups anymore based on the average level of the group members.  So now people of lower levels are getting aggroed by mobs that are non-aggro to higher level membes of their group and it is not made obviouse to everyone in the group what is going to be aggro to who like it was in the past becuase then everyone got aggroed by the same level mobs.  It's not that big of a deal really though, it's just a new annoyance that effects everyone who plays this game, not just the ones you consider farmers.  Because this change effects people that are only 5 levels apart just as much as it effects people that are 30 levels apart, there is no real difference in that respect.  So IMO if the change was made to deter farming then it was totally pointless.  Also, something that you may not be aware of that came with LU19 along with this change to aggro is the fact that anyone can see the implied targets of another person they target now whether they are grouped or not and you can also see the implied targets of mobs even when the person they have targetted are not in your group.  This was not the case prior to LU19.  And this actually makes it a bit easier for people to assit others outside of their groups.  So just face it, SOE wants people to be able to do that whether you like it or not.<i>"There is enough high level content in the game without the low level places being dominated by high level people just farming with lowbies."</i>Obviously, that is not the case.  IMO the teir 3 and teir 4 dungeons are still the best zones in the game.<i>"Usually if I'm lucky to get a master drop, it goes to guildies anyway.  So I'm not in it to make money.  I just want to have a chance to kill the darned guy, get possible upgrades to my spells, or complete quests.  </i><strong><u><i>Without having some selfish level 60 camping the spot non stop."</i></u></strong>Let me just tell you that 99% of the time I spend killing mobs in this game I am only doing it to help my friends and guildmates get quest updates, XP, and/or loot for themselves, not for me.  And let me tell you that I am highly appreciated for it.  In fact just the other day I helped a level 33 healer in my guild who is also a good freind of mine kill some named mobs in RE and he got a nice legendary priest-only belt for himself and 2 opals.  And I got a pelt and a root for my level 33 alt.  So what?  I share all the loot with my friends this way just the same as if I was actually grouped with them.  In fact they are the ones that share it with me since they are the ones that actually get the drops, not the other way around.  So don't talk to me about being selfish.  And I still don't think it's right when you have such a problem with a level 60 person camping a name when you apparently don't if they are mentored or if there is a full group of people that are actually around your level doing the same exact thing for the exact same purpose.  IMO that does not make any real sense at all and that is just being disrespectful to higher level people.FYI, as a high level officer in a guild where the vast majority of the members are pre-teir5, I prefer to make myself as useful as possible to my lower level guildmates and get to know them better by helping them out rather than alianating them because they are in different teirs like I was pretty much forced to do in the past because then I was of no real use to them at all and vice versa.  Now we can help each other to some extent.  They can tag mobs that are gray to me and would not drop any loot if I killed them on my own and I can help them kill mobs that they would not be able to kill on their own for quest updates or whatever.  They get all the XP and most of the loot and get their quests done and I get a chance at any of the loot that drops if my alt needs it.  This way I have gotten to know more people and have fun with them in the game that I never would have been able to otherwise.  Because the ability to have unlocked encounters has reduced the barrier between characters of different teirs significantly.  I am happy about that and it's not because I am selfish.  In any case, whether you like it or not makes no difference to me or the people I help, trust me.  I'm sorry if you don't have a high level person that's willing to help you out in the same way and maybe you are jealous of people who do and maybe that's the real problem here.  But I bet if you did then would have a serious change of heart.  Or when you get to high levels yourself and want to help lower people and/or get some nice stuff for your alts without having to pay outrageous prices on the broker then you will see my point.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:10 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>Thank you for the well thought out reply.  If you thought I was calling you selfish specifically, that is not my intent.  I am getting a tad bit frustrated with the master chest/named critter camping lately.  When I see a level 60 character parked with a lower level player <strong><em><u>for hours</u></em></strong> in the same place, it discourages me quite a bit.   The intent is to farm chests and "milk" the spot dry.  Of course I realize that critters respawn and there is an endless supply of spawns (you are nitpicking my words a bit my friend).   I use the term "milking" a spot = to camping a spot.  Whether the loot is for guildies, for themselves, etc it doesn't matter.  All I see is one or two spots being camped over and over and over again by the same mix of people (high level and low level) and it makes me wonder.  I like the idea of encounter locking for named critters and perhaps that is something that SOE will do in the future.  Or SOE just adjusting the darned loot tables.</p><p>Your explanation for camping is noble and selfless.  To do it for guildies or friends.  I would hope that if a group of people were running though the area hoping to kill the named critter for a quest, you would be accomodating (if they were polite of course).  And it sounds like you would be.  Unfortunately, not all other players are like you and I have seen more than my fair share of greedy players when SOE increased the master drops.   And as you say, the T3 and T4 dungeons are some of the best areas in the game right now.  They are camped, camped, camped right now.  Some with groups of people in level appropriate groups.  Some spots with the lower level player with the higher level tagging along behind.   I don't have problem with level appropriate groups camping a spot.  If they wanted to stay there for 5 hours, good for them.  There were there first and I have no problem with that.  My frustration is with a low level player with a high level player.  Low level tags, high level finishes off the encounter.  I'm not sure if this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics and I hope this gets fixed soon.</p><p>You implied that I am jealous and when I get to high level, I will understand your point.  Well, I do have a main character who is higher level.  I could camps spots too but I don't.  It makes me feel a bit guilty.  The only way I would camp is if no one was in the zone or it was a very off time.    Using my favorite example of Stormhold (this is where my newbie fury is adventuring right now), I would feel a bit guilty about taking my hubby's new 24 level character with my high level character in tow.  As he tags, I kill.  Then watching as a group runs in who are all around the appropriate level, take a look at us, and leave in frustration.  They are probably thinking, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high levels are in there again farming the spot.   I don't feel right about it and I just don't do it. </p><p>As many have said, there is farming in all games and it will never stop.  Fortunately, I'm in a super guild and we all share master spells and other fabled loot very freely.  You are right in one aspect, I've never had a higher level player take me by the hand to either powerlevel me or loot camp with me so perhaps I've missed out on one large aspect of the game.  I'm not bitter or jealous about it.  I've accumulated wealth from the game though plain old adventuring, hard work and having fun.  </p><p>Anyway, it will be interesting to see how SOE deals with this and whether it cuts down on camping or if there is no change.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Suta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:Ok, I farm Runnyeye and Varsoons.  And there are a few reasons why I do it.I have three toons between level 29 and 45, two fighters and a scout.  The scout has tracking, which is a great tool, but not that great in Runnyeye or Varsoons simply because things die quick there and (at least Runnyeye) has a nice layout.  Its easy and fast to get from one place to another.  Both fighters have Feign Death, but lets be honest and say that (a) Feign Death NEVER works when you need it to and (b) I dont really need FD in either.I usually group with higher level toons, who grey out the zone while we run from named to named.  We dont really do Varsoons anymore, mostly its Runnyeye.  Whether or not the mobs are grey are not doesnt matter.  We have enough firepower to kill any 4 encounters (or more) aggroed on us, so its just run till they are out of range or just have a higher level Monk aggro anything that is going to aggro, then run and FD.  Whatever, we get to the nameds or kill their placeholders.Runneye is a great farmable place because the nameds quite often drop chests with Master I spells, sometimes so nice legendary gear, sometimes some really ncie fabled gear, and often times garbage.  ROV is the same way.  These dungeons by far own every other non-raid experience in terms of dropping good loot.  I'll be honest, if the loot wasnt there I wouldnt farm Runnyeye (duh). You get level 30-40 loot....Now, some of that stuff is garbage when you compare it to level 40-50 loot (Permafrost and CT) BUT, those dungeons are a bit tougher (we still farm them) and the nameds are not as up as much NOR do they drop masters with the frequency as RE or ROV.  In fact, we were hunting nameds in the Feerot and Everfrost and we got some...but the loot was GARBAGE.  Not worht the time.Whoever resesigned RE and ROV deserves a cookie.  The loot there is amazing and you are at the level that it can easily surpass anything you will likely get up until the mid 50s.  Now, if you are in a raiding guild or do that kind of stuff then obviously you will get better loot at some point....but for the majoity of us RE Fableds are gonna be our most prized possessions.Now, there are several things we (as farmers) DONT do when farming.  Numero uno is spawn jumping.  If we see a group fighting in a hallway and there is a named in the next roo (obviously they are fighting their way to the named) then we will let their group have it PROVIDING they are not farmers themselves.  Meaning, if they are obviously EXPing and hoping for nameds (and are around level 30s) they they can have it.  But, if they are farmers we will take the named.Another thing is that we generally farm in odd hours (PST) and only if there are under 12 people in the zone.  Three or more groups, forget about it.  We will go in and do BOTH instances (who cares about that) but thats about it.Often times I forget to vendor and trash lore legendary (Tribal Legs, etc) and will /ooc "Tribal Legplates or BP in this room"...im fine with other people getting loot to use or sell.  We have been spawned jumped by farmers as well, I dont get mad as I know the nameds will be back up anyway.Another thing I dont do is overprice anything.  In fact I will usually underprice any stuff I need to get rid of (Lore Legendary Loot) because I might be getting that drop soon enough.  I cannot control WHO buys my stuff.  Hopefully someone buys it that acutally attunes the item.  I think, with items, that may be the case seeing as there are SO many of them on the broker.With Master I spells, it might be different.  All RE and ROV master spells are between level 30-40.  If I get one, I will check the broker and see what that spell is selling at.  Then I will usually put mine up for much less.  If my master spell is the only one on the broker, I will sell it at a reasonable price.  Usually between 20-80 gold.  80 gold is the EXTREME case as its hard to get that money at that level.  I usually price necro or conjuror spells at 80 gold, as they are mostly farmers anyway and are likely to have much more money (yea, some are legit but we all know who good those two classes can farm heroic mobs).So, I actually sell my loot at reasonale prices and am not a jerk in the zone.  I realize that for every good player there are probaly 5 or 10 people who could not care less. I am saving up to get a nice horse.  Those things are WAY expensive, and I would never get one any other way simply because I dont really raid nor do I have uber toons.I dont see the new changes stopping me from farming.  Now, I actually die farming so its not risk free (though there is no real death penalty in this game so it kinda is).  I will just use a bralwer and FD if I get aggro or let the higher levels pwn those nasty goblins. Let me say this too.  The fact that the ENTIRE grouping system has to be redesigned just because of two zones illustrates a few things.  Loot will always trump experience gained.  There are ALWAYS ways to farm, nothing short of perma locking the encouter will change that.  And obviously, the redesigners of RE and ROV are VERY good at their job, so have them redesign every other dungeon and maybe these two places will be farmed a lot less.Personally, I think EQ2 should have loot available like LDON....where you acquire points from doing quests or dungeons or whatever and spend them on NICE items.  Maybe make the faction system better and have different items for different factions, that way it would mean something to align yourself with a particular faction.  There are some of these in DOF, but there should be stuff for every level/style of play.  Is it that big a problem that people are well equipped?  There is a reason why 85% of the zones are COMPLETELY empty and there is a reason why NO ONE does Tombs of Night and NO ONE does Splitpaw anymore.  Put in dungeon points and specific dungeon factions (and items to be gained from that faction) and you would suddenyl see groups forming for Edgewater or Crypt of Betrayal (gasp).  I mean, you made these zones and they are always empty....doesnt that mean anythgin?  That would solve some farming problems too.Obviously, good loot doesnt drop as much in higher level places....maybe the developers should fix the drop rate in other areas of Norrath.  And like I said, if there was a questable horse at level 40ish (no carpets, please) I would never step foot into Runnyeye.SUW<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off and quit, economy destroying a'hole.</p><p> </p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i>"The intent is to farm chests and "milk" the spot dry.  Of course I realize that critters respawn and there is an endless supply of spawns (you are nitpicking my words a bit my friend)."</i>No not nitpicking at all, I think it's perfectly valid to point out the inaccuracy of your words there.  Because when you say that someone is milking something dry you are implying that they are removing all of the resources from whatever it is so that there will be nothing left for anyone else that comes along even after they have left the area.  Something that is not at all possible to do in this game.  Ergo you are using that terminilogy only to try and make farming sound a whole lot worse than it really is.  That's my whole point here.Another thing that bothers me is that you still always seem to just assume that the high level person in a farming team is only using the low level person to get a bunch of loot for themselves to sell for plat.  Whereas in many cases it is totally the other way around an the low level person is the one getting all or most of the loot because they actually need it and the high level person is just being kind to them.<i>"Whether the loot is for guildies, for themselves, etc it doesn't matter.  All I see is one or two spots being camped over and over and over again by the same mix of people (high level and low level) and it makes me wonder."</i>So what?  What if all the people in the group were the same level and they were still camping the same spots over and over?  Why does it make that much of a difference to you?  Farming is farming, plain and simple, it doesn't matter one bit what level the people are that are doing it.  Especially when the person who actually tags the mob has to do most of the damage to it or it won't drop any loot.  So it's not like the high level person can just pound down the mob for them, they can only do just enough to hold aggro or it doesn't work.  And like I said before, keeping your lowbie friends alive in dungeons where mobs can kill them in just a few srikes can actually be quite a challenge, especially when you are not actually grouped with them and they have to do all the pulling.  My friends usually die several times on our adventures no matter how hard I try to protect them and being a Zerker I don't have any heals or rezzing ability of my own to aid them.<i>"I like the idea of encounter locking for named critters and perhaps that is something that SOE will do in the future."</i>Well I don't.  And I doubt it will happen and I wouldn't count on it either.  I mean really, what's the point of having unlocked encounters at all if the only things it worked on is trash mobs?  Most people don't need help any from people outside their group to kill any trash mobs.  Except in the case of PLing.  I say be glad that epics are still autolocked.<i>"I would hope that if a group of people were running though the area hoping to kill the named critter for a quest, you would be accomodating (if they were polite of course)."</i>Of course, like I already said.  As long as they were polite about it then I would have no problem letting them have the mob for their quest.  Now on the other hand if they were rude about it then they could just forget it.<i>"I have seen more than my fair share of greedy players when SOE increased the master drops."</i>I agree, and they are not all high levels either.  In any case my point still stands that it's not right for them to make changes to the game that hurt everyone just to punish certain people that you find annoying.<i>"And as you say, the T3 and T4 dungeons are some of the best areas in the game right now.  They are camped, camped, camped right now.  Some with groups of people in level appropriate groups.  Some spots with the lower level player with the higher level tagging along behind."</i>You're right, and that problem is only going to get worse with these upcoming server mergers.  But the real problem is that the t5 and t6 dungeons are just not nearly as fun and cool as the t3 and t4 ones are.  They don't drop nearly enough loot that is worth anything to anyone and their layouts are sub-par.  So it's no wonder that everyone still wants to go to the old places even higher level people.  Especially those of us with low level alts that are around the levels that can really use the loot that drops there.  Plus you have to consider that a lot of the good loot that drops there now was added much later in the game and did not even exist at all around the time that many people like myself were in the actual level range intended for it.  So maybe we feel a bit cheated and taking advantage of the unlocked encounters is our way of getting back at the system in a way.  In any case SOE has allowed it and they obviously don't see fit to completely prohibit our actions.  So that is just the way it is.  At least until KoS comes out.  But like I said we have just as much right to be there as anyone regardless of our level.  The main problem I have with you though is that it seems like you are just trying to get SOE to make changes to the game just so that you will have less competition in these popular zones, not because anything we are doing is actually wrong.  Seriously though, I think when KoS is realesed you will see a huge reduction in the amount of high level people spending their time in the lower teir dungeons.  I for one know for a fact that I will be much too busy in KoS for any PLing and farming in the lower teirs.<i>"My frustration is with a low level player with a high level player.  Low level tags, high level finishes off the encounter."</i>And that is the fault I see in you.  IMO it's really none of your business what we do or how we do it.  Like I have been saying, a high-level/low-level duo is not going to prevent you from getting names any more than a full group at the "approperiate" level is.  So it really doesn't effect you as much as you are trying to pretend it does.  Like you even said, you don't care if a group of people that are all around your level camp the same name for a week straight, you only have a problem with seeing high level people tagging along with low level people, no matter what they are doing.  And it's not just that you personally dislike it but that you actually want the game mechanics to be changed so that it's not possible anymore, just becuase you don't happen to like it.  I have a huge problem with people like that, who wish to have the laws changed to force everyone to do things the way they want even when the things that other people do that they don't like are not really hurting anyone.  It's very selfish.<i>"I'm not sure if this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics and I hope this gets fixed soon."</i>The intention is obvious.  They wanted people to be able to help other people outside of groups regardless of level difference."<i>You implied that I am jealous and when I get to high level, I will understand your point.  Well, I do have a main character who is higher level.  I could camps spots too but I don't.  It makes me feel a bit guilty....I don't feel right about it and I just don't do it."</i>Well then that is your choice.  Don't be trying to force your morals on other people who have their own.<i>"Anyway, it will be interesting to see how SOE deals with this and whether it cuts down on camping or if there is no change."</i>It doesn't seem to have done a thing really.  Like I said I was in RE the other day right after the patch PLing my guildies and helping them kill names for loot just as we always have.  We still got chests too.  And we did pass by a few other high levels in the area.  The only real difference the change made I think was that we have to start at the beginning of the zone and kill our way through the dungeon just like eveyone else instead of being able to gray out the mobs and just run right to the good spots.  Not that it really bothers me or my friends that much though.  It does prevent people from getting to the different spawn points of the names as quickly as they did before, but then we never bothered using that method of farming very much anyway.  We prefer to kill the stuff in between to get more XP.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p>

[StormCinder]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><div></div><i>"<font color="#66ff00"><strong>My frustration</strong></font> is with a low level player with a high level player.  Low level tags, high level finishes off the encounter."</i>And that is the fault I see in you.  IMO it's really none of your business what we do or how we do it.  Like I have been saying, a high-level/low-level duo is not going to prevent you from getting names any more than a full group at the "approperiate" level is.  So it really doesn't effect you as much as you are saying.  Like you said you don't care if a group of people that are all around your level camp a name for a week straight, you only have a problem with seeing high level people tagging along with low level people, no matter what they are doing.  And it's not just that you personally dislike it but you actually want the game mechanics to be changed so that it's not possible anymore, just becuase you don't happen to like it.  I have a huge problem with people like that, who wish to have the laws changed to force everyone to do things the way they want even when the things that other people do that they don't like are not really hurting anyone.  It's very selfish.<i>"I'm not sure if this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics and I hope this gets fixed soon."</i>The intention is obvious.  They wanted people to be able to help other people outside of groups regardless of level difference."<i>You implied that I am jealous and when I get to high level, I will understand your point.  Well, I do have a main character who is higher level.  I could camps spots too but I don't.  It makes me feel a bit guilty....I don't feel right about it and I just don't do it."</i>Well then that is your choice.  Don't be trying to force your morals on other people who have their own.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:33 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Spot on. </p><p>I (as a roleplayer) think PLing lower level alts or guildies is senseless.  The two key words in my statement are "I think".  It's an opinion on another play style.  We are entitled to our opinions (and BTW to ask SOE for the change) but you (Floria) <strong><em>are</em> </strong>asking SOE to make a change to game mechanics to force other players with different styles to conform to the way <strong><em>you</em> </strong>want them to play.  Me?  If I see it, it's just a blur as I go on about my business.  Not the way I'd play, but it's not my $12.99.</p><p>I guess I'm a little "Libertarian" in my views of SOE.  The fewer controls they place on gameplay, the more likely the game is to grow into it's own.</p><p>SC</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by StormCinder on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:21 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div><div><span class="headline">Infernus,</span></div><div><span class="headline"></span> </div><div><span class="headline">    Obviously we disagree on farming and we can debate this until we are blue in the face and never agree.  I'm chuckling again at your implications that I'm imposing my morals on other players and want the laws changed to benefit me.  And your implication that I'm a selfish player.  Well I'm not the one farming the mobs non stop for loot am I?   How am I being "selfish?"  We are all entitled to our opinions and as paying customers, can come to these boards and comment on game feedback issues.   You are quick to label and judge others and couldn't be farther from the truth.  I'm not a camper by nature and I'm not looking at "thinning out the competition."  My game style is to do quests, adventure through dungeons for good experience and fun with my friends.  If named mobs are up, that is great.  If not, we move on.  But over the past month or so, the camping has gotten noticable.  And several times when we've been unable to complete quests, it gets irritating.  As I've stated again and again, my problem is with the level 60 camping with level 20 player (Stormhold example again).  I'm not sure this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics.</span></div><div><span class="headline"></span> </div><div><span class="headline">   In summary, my main issue right now are some gaming mechanics as they currently stand.  I  think that your panties are in a bunch because SOE is taking a look at these types of issues very seriously and there will be some changes coming down the road that will put a crimp into your playstyle.  If you really want to help your guildies and be the selfless player that you state you are, how about mentoring down?   That is the best way to help your guidies and have some fun in the meantime.   I was heartened to see this on another thread and see another attempt to balance the game mechanics.  I'm sure that this is not the way SOE intended things to be and they are trying to address the "farming" issues.</span></div><div><span class="headline"></span> </div><div><font color="#ff3300"><span class="headline">Update Notes: January 30th, 2006<i> 1/30/2006 11:45 am PST</i></span>*** Items ***</font></div><div><font color="#ff3300">- Item drop rates now obey the same rules as experience does when damage is contributed by people or creatures other than the group or person that engages an encounter. That is, you will be less likely to find treasure chests on creatures who players outside of your group help fight. The more damage they do, the less likely you will be to obtain the loot.</font></div><div><font color="#ff3300"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff3300">  </font>I think that I've said enough on this.  We disagree.  You are entitled to your opinion.  I'm entitled to mine.  You think I"m selfish.  As long as you aren't in my guild or on my server (Oasis), your good opinion has no impact on me.  This is what these boards are for---feedback on a game that we all love and feel quite passionately about.  Happy gaming. </div><div> </div><div>Edit:  In response to StormCinder,  I'm not "asking" SOE to do anything.  I'm but a small fish in the ocean.  I'm coming to the boards to express my opinion---Floria's---about farming.  SOE is already making these changes so it's in the works.  Nothing that Floria "asked" them to do.  Sigh, I'm outnumbered on this farming issue but it is fun to debate on these boards isn't it......:smileywink<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />eace.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:32 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i>"</i><span class="headline"><i>Obviously we disagree on farming and we can debate this until we are blue in the face and never agree."</i>I think you are a bit confused.  I am not trying to convince you to agree with farming.  Like I said...I don't even farm that much myself.  My problem is that you want them to change the system to make it harder if not impossible for high levels to help low levels without being grouped.  And that doesn't even have anything to do with farming per se.  You just don't want high levels being able to help low levels at all, that is all there is to it.  You just use farming as an excuse to try and get people in trouble when they really aren't doing anything wrong.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>I'm chuckling again at your implications that I'm imposing my morals on other players and want the laws changed to benefit me."</i>Well, you can laugh about it all you want, but that is exactly what you are doing.  I don't see how you can even try to deny that.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>Well I'm not the one farming the mobs non stop for loot am I?"</i>See...you're still assuming that everyone who does any kind of farming is nothing but a selfish piece of crap that deserves to be loathed.  You're not listening to a word that I'm trying to say.  Oh wait...you only have a problem with them if they are above a certain level.  Then we are back to the subject of disrespecting high levels again.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>How am I being "selfish?"</i>I already just told you.  You want more mobs for yourself and you want to cull down the population of farmers to make that happen.  Plain and simple.  You can't deny it.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>You are quick to label and judge others and couldn't be farther from the truth."</i>You're the one who lables and judges farmers and anyone who you think is a farmer based on their level.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>I'm not a camper by nature and I'm not looking at "thinning out the competition."</i>You still don't get what I am saying.  I never said you wanted to cull the population of farmers so you can start farming yourself.  You may not have any intention of doing any actual farming.  I never accused you of wanting to farm at all.  However, you do want farmers to be eradicated so you can have more access to the mobs they camp, whether you intend to actually farm them or not is irrevelant.<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>But over the past month or so, the camping has gotten noticable.  And several times when we've been unable to complete quests, it gets irritating."</i>Like I have been saying...the problem you are having is with inconsiderate people in the game.  Not the game mechanics.  You need to realize that.  I know that there are lots of inconsiderate people in this game.  It's sad but true.  I have run into quite a few myself.  </span><span class="headline">Just like in real life.  There's really not a whole lot you can do about it though.  </span><span class="headline">If someone is camping a name for loot and you need it for a quest and they won't let you have it even after you asked them nicely then I agree that is mean.  But your problem is, once again, that you want them to change the mechanics of the game to punish everyone for the actions of certain people.  That is wrong.  Furthermore...since when should any changes me made the system in order to try and force people who don't want to be nice to be nice?  That is not feasible.  Face it...if someone doesn't want to be nice to you they really don't have to, now do they?  There is no law that says everyone has to be nice to everyone else.  You really think there should be?  Come on.  Plus, as I have already said a couple of times now (apparently you keep missing this), they could just change it so that no quest mobs, or at least not any of the important ones, give any kind of good loot.  I personally would not have a huge problem with that.  If you disagree with it however then you obviously just want the loot as much as anyone else and saying that you need the mob for a quest is just a lame excuse to try and make people feel sorry for you so they will be more inclined to let you have it.  So do tell, what is your position on that?<i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>As I've stated again and again, my problem is with the level 60 camping with level 20 player (Stormhold example again).  I'm not sure this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics."</i>Exactly, so you admit that you actually have no problem at all with farming per se.  You really just have problem with high level people being able to help low level people outside of their group no matter what they are actually doing, whether they are farming or not, even if it is in no way actually harming you at all.  IMO that makes you nothing more than a busybody.</span><span class="headline">Let me ask you this...what if a group of lowbies (a full one) was camping a name for loot and a high level came along that needed it for a quest?  Or what if another lowbie with a high level friend following them around came up to the group and said he needed the mob for a quest?  Don't they have just as much right to get their quest update as you would in the same situation, regardless of their level or the level of their companions?  That's what I was talking about earlier...it seems like many lowbies just have this attitude against high level players and treat us like we actually have less rights than them.  Another thing to consider is that some people might actually feel that their chance at getting a certain piece of loot they know drops from a certain mob is more important to them than someone else's quest update.  And you know what...in many cases that might actually be true.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:03 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>infernus006 wrote:<i>"</i><span class="headline"><i>Obviously we disagree on farming and we can debate this until we are blue in the face and never agree."</i>I think you are a bit confused.  I am not trying to convince you to agree with farming.  Like I said...I don't even farm that much myself.  My problem is that you want them to change the system to make it harder if not impossible for high levels to help low levels without being grouped.  And that doesn't even have anything to do with farming per se.  You just don't want high levels being able to help low levels at all, that is all there is to it.  You just use farming as an excuse to try and get people in trouble when they are really doing nothing wrong.</span></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">Since you quote everything I say and nitpick it, let me respond to your comments in kind until this gets really, really long and locked for bickering.  Let me make this simple.  We disagree on having a high level player farming with a low level player taking advantage of non locked encounters.  I define farming as player(s) xyz staying in one place for hours on end, killing mob(s) zyz to get the xyz item of uberness to drop.  My specific example is the level 60 player helping the level 20 something person killed named critters for hours on end.  In one spot, for one purpose----FARMING.  I am all for high levels helping lower level folks.  There is a thing called mentoring which is pretty cool.  Or a high level player helping a lower level player on quests, etc.  No problems with high level players helping others.  Again, my specific gripe is farming mobs using the game mechanics as they stand right now.</font></span></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">Secondly, who said anything about getting people in trouble.  Whom am I getting in trouble?  I'm I reporting people?  Do I harrass people?  Do you have proof?  I think I reported one person during my whole EQ2 career for a very sexual name that was offensive.  So again, who am I trying to get into trouble?</font><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>I'm chuckling again at your implications that I'm imposing my morals on other players and want the laws changed to benefit me."</i>Well, that is exactly what you are doing.  I don't see how you can even try to deny that.  <font color="#ff0000">Not imposing my morals, simply offering my opinion.  Same as what everyone else does on these boards?   Am I forcing you to do anything?  Do I have impact on your game play?  Nope.</font></span><span class="headline"><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>Well I'm not the one farming the mobs non stop for loot am I?"</i>See...you're still assuming that everyone who does any kind of farming is nothing but a selfish piece of crap who deserves to be loathed.  You're not listening to a word that I'm trying to say.  <font color="#ff0000">I never said that "everyone" who farms mobs are selfish pieces of crap.  You are generalizing my friend and taking what I'm saying out of context to make me sound like a whiny, busybody.  </font></span><span class="headline"><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>How am I being "selfish?"</i>I already just told you.  You want more mobs for yourself and you want to cull down the population of farmers to make that happen.  Plain and simple.  You can't deny it.  <font color="#ff0000">I don't farm.  Why would I start now?  Farming is boring.  Much prefer to adventure, quest, etc.  Like anyone, I love when that master chest drops.  I have bad luck and never win anything for my class.  Most of what I manage to win, goes to guidies in need.  See, both of us give away what we find, helping guildies and friends. </font><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>You are quick to label and judge others and couldn't be farther from the truth."</i>You're the one who lables and judges farmers and anyone who you think is a farmer.  <font color="#ff0000">I am judging only the level 60s taking advantage of the game mechanics right now, greedly camping spots in lowbie places.  Oh, and I despise gold farmers (shudders with Worlds of Warcraft visions) so there are certain types of farmers I do have problems with.   Does it completely ruin my day---nah---I just move on.</font><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>I'm not a camper by nature and I'm not looking at "thinning out the competition."</i>You still don't get what I am saying.  I never said you wanted to cull the population of farmers so you can start farming yourself.  You may not have any intention of doing any actual farming.  I never accused you of wanting to farm.  However, you do want farmers to be eradicated so you can have more access to the mobs they camp yourself, whether you intend to actually farm them or not is irrevelant. <font color="#ff0000"> People will always farm.  Not all farmers will be eradicated.  People will farm in every game.  What will be tougher is for the level 60 player to farm with a lower level player.   And in another paragraph, you said that I wanted all the mobs for myself thus implying I was a farmer?  What an inaccurate statement but think what you want to.  I think farming and mob camping is pretty boring. </font><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>But over the past month or so, the camping has gotten noticable.  And several times when we've been unable to complete quests, it gets irritating."</i>Like I have been saying...the problem you are having is with inconsiderate people in the game.  Not the game mechanics.  You need to realize that.  If someone is camping a name for loot and you need it for a quest and they won't let you have it even after you asked them nicely then I agree that is mean.  But your problem is, once again, that you want them to change the mechanics of the game to punish everyone for the actions of certain people.  That is wrong.  Furthermore...since when should any changes me made the system in order to try and force people who don't want to be nice to be nice?  That is not feasible.  Face it...if someone doesn't want to be nice to you they really don't have to, now do they?  There is no law that says everyone has to be nice to everyone else.  You really think there should be?  Come on.  <font color="#ff0000">Where did I bring up people being nice?  I'm not trying to force people to be nice. Unfortunately in any game, the actions of a few people have a big impact on others.  Don't be mad at me.  Be mad at SOE who is making these changes.  I had nothing to do with it.</font><i>"</i></span><span class="headline"><i>As I've stated again and again, my problem is with the level 60 camping with level 20 player (Stormhold example again).  I'm not sure this is what SOE intended in the game mechanics."</i>Exactly, so you admit that you actually have no problem at all with farming per se.  You really just have problem with high level people being able to help low level people outside of their group no matter what they are actually doing, whether they are farming or not, even if it is in no way actually harming you at all.  IMO that makes you nothing more than a busybody.  <font color="#ff0000">You finally got the jist of my gripe about not being against farming per say, just my specific gripe.   As I've said before, it's great that high levels help lower levels.  Nothing bad about that.  And being a busybody---how am I being a busybody?  Am I reporting people in game?  Am I tagging along, following them, harrassing them?  Am I sending them tells crying about farming?  Do I fall on the floor of Stormhold, flailing my feet and throwing a temper tantrum like my 3 year old son?   Nope.  Do you have proof of me being a busybody in game?  I can assure you that I pretty much go about my own business in game.    You are assuming too much again. Again, these boards are for expressing opinions.  The changes are coming, whether you like them or not.  Don't be mad at me.  I had nothing to do with it at all.</font></p></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Edits:  Cooking dinner and I was rushed.  Few typos corrected.<p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i><font color="#ffffff"></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i></span></font><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">My specific example is the level 60 player helping the level 20 something person killed named critters for hours on end.  In one spot, for one purpose----FARMING.</span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>I still don't understand what difference it makes to you what the level difference is between the people that are working together to accomplish this farming.  IMO that makes no difference at all.  Farming is farming.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I am all for high levels helping lower level folks.  There is a thing called mentoring which is pretty cool."</i>I already told you I hate mentoring and I also told you why.  Just becuase you think it's cool doesn't mean it is, at least not to everyone else.  And once again it is my choice if I want to mentor or not.  And since I don't really have to...why bother?  I would actually prefer not to and I'm glad that I am no longer forced to do it in order to help my lower level friends.<i>"</i></span></font><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">Or a high level player helping a lower level player on quests, etc.  No problems with high level players helping others.  Again, my specific gripe is farming mobs using the game mechanics as they stand right now.</span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>But how do you expect SOE to make a change to the game that actually differentiates between high level people helping low level people do quests and high level people helping low level people farm names for loot?  Or maybe you don't care who all gets screwed over as long as it hurts farmers.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Secondly, who said anything about getting people in trouble.  Whom am I getting in trouble?"</i>Maybe you are not one of those people who actually tries to get other people in trouble for farming but as it has been pointed out several times already, there are people who actually try to do that.  I was also referring to having changes made to the game that hinders a person's ability to do what they want to in the game just because you don't happen to like it.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Not imposing my morals, simply offering my opinion.  Same as what everyone else does on these boards?   Am I forcing you to do anything?  Do I have impact on your game play?  Nope."</i>There is a very fine line there.  When you whine about things like farming on the boards then why exactly do you do that?  Aren't you hoping that SOE will read your opinion and take it into consideration and make changes to the game in order to make you happy regardless of the feelings of other players who do things differently than what you prefer?By the way I am not saying that you have no right to share your opinion here.  I just disagree with it and I am sharing my own opinions as well.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I never said that "everyone" who farms mobs are selfish pieces of crap. "</i>Ok but then you still want them all to all be punished and/or eradicated the same, regardless of their motives?<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I don't farm.  Why would I start now? "</i>Once again I never accused you of farming or wanting to farm.  I said you wanted to get rid of farmers so you can have more access to the mobs they farm.  I never said you actually wanted to farm them yourself.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Like anyone, I love when that master chest drops.  I have bad luck and never win anything for my class."</i>Maybe you need to start farming then LOL.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i> Most of what I manage to win, goes to guidies in need."</i>Only because the drops you get are things you either don't need or can't use at all.  Correct?  In that case maybe you should re-evaluate your play style.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I am judging only the level 60s taking advantage of the game mechanics right now, greedly camping spots in lowbie places. "</i>And I am arguing that it is not right to descriminiate against level 60's who farm because level 30's who farm the same areas are just as bad and greedy as they are.  Being higher level does not automatically make you more of a greedy person.  Yet you just keep assuming that.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>And in another paragraph, you said that I wanted all the mobs for myself thus implying I was a farmer."</i>No, I never said or implied that you were a farmer.  I never said that you wanted all the mobs to yourself.  Please go back and actually read what I said.  Nevermind, I will just retype it again.  I said you wanted farmers to be removed from the areas you like to go in so that you can have more access to the mobs that they farm.  So you can get more loot for yourself.  I never said that you were actually going to farm the names yourself.  You just want more of a chance to get at them.  Even if it means kicking other people out of the zone who do this horrible thing called farming.  But then what gives you any more of a right to kill a mob than anyone else in the game, including all the farmers, regardless of their level?  You need to drop this idea that a level 60 person has less rights to kill level 30 mobs than a level 30 person does, because that is just not true.  If that was the case then you would have to say the same exact thing for all quest updates and harvest nodes in all the lower teir zones.  And that is just not right.  Furthermore, it's not like high level people can get any loot from lower level mobs on their own either, like you are making it sound.  They have to have low level people helping them to get it.  And like I said, in many cases the high level person is only helping the low level peson to get loot, xp, and/or quest credits for themselves, no the other way around.  You seem to keep forgetting that as well.</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:59 PM</span></p>

[therodge]

<div></div><div></div><p>ok first origonal poster you are correct bothin wrong with farming, and hers a much better reason why</p><p>in eq2 today if at teir six you are not in full ledgandary you are considered subpar, you probobly arnt becuase with your lesser gear you have been able to learn your class better, but let me tell you a story,</p><p> </p><p>my charicters name is camphor i have played since 3 months after realese with really 1 charicter (i have alts but almost never log them on) i played "the right way" till about 48, playing in groups or soloing i could make say 50 gold a week (im playing 5 hours a day at this point) whitch is easily eaten up by armour repairs and food leaving me with sometimes less then 10 gold a peice, as i got up to 48 i realized every single tank at 50+ was in full cobalt minimum normally in full ledgandary +, i started raising money, cost effecivly after a month or so i saved about 1.5p aka not even close enough started trying to level, would get invited get their and this is a direct quote "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] why dont you have cobalt and why the hell isnt your amends at atleast adept 3" i then got kicked anmd this scenario was played out quite often, and when i did find a group i would normally get absulutly get ripped to shredds by yellow heroics (with two healers in group) and often couldent hold agroo ( after all adept ones costiung 50g+ for adept one tuants)</p><p>so i started farming RE and in about 4 weeks i have enough plat to buy myself a full suit of cobalt and a couple adept ones now agroo is very rarly a problem and can duo most white heroics anmd can solo many of the blue white heroics in SS(if undead)</p><p> </p><p>anyone who is considered par by the community has done 1 of 3 things</p><p>1. farmed mobs or nodes (rocks trees ect)</p><p>2. is or was in a heavy raiding guild,</p><p>3.was 50 before cap went up and had money saved up</p><p>btw hers a list of the positives</p><p> </p><p>thier was an argument on well THEIR hard earned master isnt getting its bang for its buck becuase of farmers when in reality it gets much much much more, vendor trash is vendro trash and when you can buy your master 5/10/15g you just made it easier genral market price ges down everyones happy, THE ONLY PERSON who would have any right at all to complain (i do mean the only person) would be a tradeskiller</p><p>Message Edited by therodge on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:12 PM</span></p>

[Sakar]

<div></div><div>Actually, theBladesCaress has it wrong, she stated that farmers were doing it for a horse, but wondered at the length of time they farm and why it took so long to get that horse.  Well, they are NOT farming for a single horse but.... a horse ranch which as we all know takes oodles of plats <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Sak</div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><i><font color="#ffffff"></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i></span></font><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">My specific example is the level 60 player helping the level 20 something person killed named critters for hours on end.  In one spot, for one purpose----FARMING.</span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>I still don't understand what difference it makes to you what the level difference is between the people that are working together to accomplish this farming.  IMO that makes no difference at all.  Farming is farming.  <font color="#ff0000">You don't agree with me so this is a moot point to continue arguing.  We disagree. </font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I am all for high levels helping lower level folks.  There is a thing called mentoring which is pretty cool."</i>I already told you I hate mentoring and I also told you why.  Just becuase you think it's cool doesn't mean it is, at least not to everyone else.  And once again it is my choice if I want to mentor or not.  And since I don't really have to...why bother?  I would actually prefer not to and I'm glad that I am no longer forced to do it in order to help my lower level friends.   <font color="#ff0000">Your choice and it is all personal preference.  I'm not "telling" you to mentor.  Just mentioned it as an option to help your friends if that is really what you want to do.   You mentioned that you really like to help your buddies.  Well this is a good way of a higher level helping other than camping  mobs with the level 20/60 combo in lowbie dungeons.  But if this is what you want to do, so be it.  It is your game.  I certainly do not want to impose my morals on you.  </font></span></font></p><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000"></font><p><i>"</i></span><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">Or a high level player helping a lower level player on quests, etc.  No problems with high level players helping others.  Again, my specific gripe is farming mobs using the game mechanics as they stand right now.</span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>But how do you expect SOE to make a change to the game that actually differentiates between high level people helping low level people do quests and high level people helping low level people farm names for loot?  Or maybe you don't care who all gets screwed over as long as it hurts farmers.  <font color="#ff0000">Lots of ways to help the low level people out.  It will be a bit harder with the agro changes but still doable.  Remember, low level people aren't helpless weaklings.  I've found it pretty easy to set up groups with guildies or good folks you meet around Norrath.  A low level person doesn't always need to have a level 60 toon holding his/her hand.  I guess that you have a very different gaming style where you constantly help lower level toons.  I've been pretty independent setting up my level appropriate groups with guildies and friends.  I've never been in a guild that powelevels people so we really have two different styles of playing and very different philosophies.  </font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Secondly, who said anything about getting people in trouble.  Whom am I getting in trouble?"</i>Maybe you are not one of those people who actually tries to get other people in trouble for farming but as it has been pointed out several times already, there are people who actually try to do that.  I was also referring to having changes made to the game that hinders a person's ability to do what they want to in the game just because you don't happen to like it. <font color="#ff0000"> I'm not responsible for the changes.  SOE noted a problem and changed/is changing the game mechanics.  I've had nothing to do with it so stop pointing that finger at me.   </font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Not imposing my morals, simply offering my opinion.  Same as what everyone else does on these boards?   Am I forcing you to do anything?  Do I have impact on your game play?  Nope."</i>There is a very fine line there.  When you whine about things like farming on the boards then why exactly do you do that?  Aren't you hoping that SOE will read your opinion and take it into consideration and make changes to the game in order to make you happy regardless of the feelings of other players who do things differently than what you prefer?  <font color="#ff0000">I'm not really whining nor do I expect SOE to listen to Floria.  I am a person of no consequence on these boards and certainly to SOE.  I have no expectation that my opinion will have any impact to SOE and their game design.   I come here because I like reading about EQ2 and talking with other gamers about the game we love.   I am another poster who has an opinion and am voicing it here.  Play the game how you like.  I'm playing it how I like.  I personally don't get into an uproar about changes unless my class gets hit with an incredible nerf.  I think that you are taking my remarks far too personally however I have to remind you that you started this whole thing with your post about people being selfish and not respectful of higher levels.   That rubbed me the wrong way thus prompting my response to you in the first place. </font></span></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000"></font>By the way I am not saying that you have no right to share your opinion here.  I just disagree with it and I am sharing my own opinions as well.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I never said that "everyone" who farms mobs are selfish pieces of crap. "</i>Ok but then you still want them all to all be punished and/or eradicated the same, regardless of their motives?  <font color="#ff0000">Did I say the word punished or eradicated?  Well I would like to have gold farmers (in case you nitpick, I am talking about the people who are doing it for real world profit such as gold farms) punished and eradicated.  But not all farmers.  I didn't say  that and you are taking out of context.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I don't farm.  Why would I start now? "</i>Once again I never accused you of farming or wanting to farm.  I said you wanted to get rid of farmers so you can have more access to the mobs they farm.  I never said you actually wanted to farm them yourself.  <font color="#ff0000">I told you that I don't camp named mobs so a moot point.  I would like to complete quests though and have a shot, during a hunting session, at a master chest drop without the level 60/20 duo competition camping the spot nonstop.  Does it make me greedy to want a chance to kill a named when we have a hunting group (with level appropriate people)?  Humm, what do you think our group members are thinking when we bust our butts to get to the named guy and some level 60/20 duo is sitting there all night long camping the spot?  You can be assured that I'm not the only one in the group thinking evil thoughts at the moment.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Like anyone, I love when that master chest drops.  I have bad luck and never win anything for my class."</i>Maybe you need to start farming then LOL.  <font color="#ff0000">Yep, but I don't farm so again a moot point.  I get my few drops when I'm tackling the dungeon in our level appropriate group.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i> Most of what I manage to win, goes to guidies in need."</i>Only because the drops you get are things you either don't need or can't use at all.  Correct?  In that case maybe you should re-evaluate your play style.  <font color="#ff0000">Of course I learn the spell if it is suitable for my class.   If I can't use it, it goes to guildies or friends.  If someone is in the group who can learn it, of course it goes to them.  I'm a pretty considerate player regardless of what you believe.  People take care of me in game and I take care of them.  Sharing reaps nice rewards.  What are you getting at here?  I think that I've put a total of two masters on the broker when no one really needed them at the time.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I am judging only the level 60s taking advantage of the game mechanics right now, greedly camping spots in lowbie places. "</i>And I am arguing that it is not right to descriminiate against level 60's who farm because level 30's who farm the same areas are just as bad and greedy as they are.  Being higher level does not automatically make you more of a greedy person.  Yet you just keep assuming that.  <font color="#ff0000">We are talking past one another.  Not going to beat this dead horse.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>And in another paragraph, you said that I wanted all the mobs for myself thus implying I was a farmer."</i>No, I never said or implied that you were a farmer.  I never said that you wanted all the mobs to yourself.  Please go back and actually read what I said.  Nevermind, I will just retype it again.  I said you wanted farmers to be removed from the areas you like to go (<font color="#ff0000">farmers will never be removed</font>) in so that you can have more access to the mobs that they farm.  So you can get more loot for yourself.  I never said that you were actually going to farm the names yourself.  You just want more of a chance to get at them.  Even if it means kicking other people out of the zone who do this horrible thing called farming. ( <font color="#ff0000">d</font><font color="#ff0000">id I say this?  No one is being kicked out of any zone.  It will just be more difficult in the future for the high/low level combo.  Will all farming stop?  Of course not.  I have no problems with groups farming mobs in a dungeon.  You keep thinking that I am totally against farming.  I"m not. </font>)  But then what gives you any more of a right to kill a mob than anyone else in the game, including all the farmers, regardless of their level?  You need to drop this idea that a level 60 person has less rights to kill level 30 mobs than a level 30 person does, because that is just not true (<font color="#ff0000">whatever you say, again, we disagree and are talking past one another</font>).  If that was the case then you would have to say the same exact thing for all quest updates and harvest nodes in all the lower teir zones.  And that is just not right.  Furthermore, it's not like high level people can get any loot from lower level mobs on their own either, like you are making it sound.  They have to have low level people helping them to get it. (<font color="#ff0000">lol, but the high level person does get the loot from the lower level person to twink alts, sell on the market, etc.  It's a team thing.  They are doing the tagging, you are doing the killing.  Don't tell me that you aren't putting a good portion of this crap on the maket.  Give me a break.  You get something out of it just like the lower level person.  Both of you are benefiting from the deal.  </font>) And like I said, in many cases the high level person is only helping the low level peson to get loot, xp, and/or quest credits for themselves, no the other way around.  You seem to keep forgetting that as well.  (<font color="#ff0000">see comment above, lol</font>)</font></p></span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:59 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well enough from me this evening.  Time to log on a play versus debating this.  Talk to you later Infernus.  I'm enjoying the debates although others are probably getting tired of us bickering.  Have a good evening and happy hunting. 

[infernus006]

<i>"anyone who is considered par by the community has done 1 of 3 things</i><p><i>1. farmed mobs or nodes (rocks trees ect)</i></p><p><i>2. is or was in a heavy raiding guild,</i></p><p><i>3.was 50 before cap went up and had money saved up"</i></p><p>Don't forget buying plat online with RL money that was raised by farmers.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyways, I am not here to promote or defend farming per se.  My only real point here is to deter people from either asking for or supporting changes to be made to the mechanics of the game for the sole purpose of "sticking it to farmers", epseically when the changes effect non-farmers as well.</p><p>I know some people will always disagree with high levels assisting low levels through to unlocked encounters beause it is not in line with their preferred playstyle.  But IMO it is not a good idea to try and force others to play the game the way you want them to by changing the mechanics of the game to prevent them from doing what they want just because you don't agree with it.</p><p>The fact is I enjoy being able to use my high level character to help my lower level guildies get quests done as well as get xp and loot for themselves whenever I have the chance to do so.  And like I said, I am highly appreciated for it and I get thanked for it.  If it wasn't appreciated then I wouldn't bother doing it.  So it shouldn't be ay wonder why I don't like people trying to get the game nerfed in a way that will prevent me from doing this just because they dislike farmers.  Because any time that I'm helping a low level friend camp a name in a low level dungeon for them to get a quest update or whatever, I am going to be automatically labled as a farmer, and any change that is made to the game to prevent high levels from farming low level loot by assisting low level people outside of encounters is going to effect me just the same.</p><div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><i><font color="#ffffff">"</font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I'm not "telling" you to mentor.  Just mentioned it as an option to help your friends if that is really what you want to do.   You mentioned that you really like to help your buddies.  Well this is a good way of a higher level helping other than camping  mobs with the level 20/60 combo in lowbie dungeons."</i>And I've already explained to you why I dislike mentoring and why I refuse to do it.  Also you can't deny the fact that it's much better to have a level 60 person helping you out than someone that is exactly the same level as you.  Obviously two level 25 people are not going to be able to duo level 30 heroics very well.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I've found it pretty easy to set up groups with guildies or good folks you meet around Norrath."</i>Well my guildies are not quite so lucky.  They are constantly complaining that they can never find any decent people to group with that have any idea what they are doing and it makes them very frustrated with the game.  At least they have me to fall back on when they really need to get something done so they don't just up and quit the game.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>A low level person doesn't always need to have a level 60 toon holding his/her hand.  I guess that you have a very different gaming style where you constantly help lower level toons."</i>I never said that I do it all the time.  In fact I specifically stated that I only do it once in a while, when I am asked to, when they really want the help.  It is certainly not something that I force on them.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I've never been in a guild that powelevels people so we really have two different styles of playing and very different philosophies. "</i>Yes obviously.  To each their own.<i>"</i></span></font><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">I'm not responsible for the changes.  SOE noted a problem and changed/is changing the game mechanics.  I've had nothing to do with it so stop pointing that finger at me. </span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>But you are supporting the changes.  And the only reason they made the changes at all is because people like you were whining about farmers.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have no expectation that my opinion will have any impact to SOE and their game design."</i>You may be right about that but I don't think it's a good idea to just assume that they never will.  I think we should all be very careful what we say on these boards and only say things if we really mean them.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have to remind you that you started this whole thing with your post about people being selfish and not respectful of higher levels.   That rubbed me the wrong way thus prompting my response to you in the first place."</i>And I still believe that that is true.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Did I say the word punished or eradicated?  Well I would like to have gold farmers (in case you nitpick, I am talking about the people who are doing it for real world profit such as gold farms) punished and eradicated.  But not all farmers."</i>Then answer my question about how to you make a change to the game that will only effect the certain kinds of farmers that you happen to dislike without effecting all the others as well as people like me who use unlocked encounters for other purposes besides farming?<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I would like to complete quests though and have a shot, during a hunting session, at a master chest drop without the level 60/20 duo competition camping the spot nonstop. "</i>Exactly so you would like to see a change to the game that prevents high level people from helping low level people if it will reduce the amount of farmers that you claim are disrupting your shot at master chests.  Which is ridiculous.  If you want the names you have to get there first.  That is the way of this game and nothing is every going to change that.  And once again you still haven't explained why the level 20/60 duo bother you more than a full group of level 20s that are doing the exact same thing.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Does it make me greedy to want a chance to kill a named when we have a hunting group (with level appropriate people)?</i>"When you support changes made to the game that prevents certain people from killing mobs that you would rather kill yourself instead then yes it does.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Humm, what do you think our group members are thinking when we bust our butts to get to the named guy and some level 60/20 duo is sitting there all night long camping the spot?"</i>The same as I feel when I bust my butt to to help guildies get quests done and we get to a name that they need and it's already being camped.  There is no difference there and the levels of the people camping it makes no difference to me either.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>You can be assured that I'm not the only one in the group thinking evil thoughts at the moment."</i>And that is exactly my whole point.  Whenever you see a high level person helping a low level it makes you mad and you think evil thoughts about them.  Just because of their level and nothing more.  And you just assume they are farming the name for loot when in fact one of the low levels might actually need the mob for a quest.  Just because one of the people there is a high level, you have a problem with it.  Even if you don't actually need the mob for a quest.  That is wrong.  And that is exactly what I am talking about with this disrespect of high level people by low level people.  You see a high level person there and you feel they have no right to be there because of there level, regardless of what their motives are, even if they are just there to help someone that can't find a group.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>We are talking past one another.  Not going to beat this dead horse."</i>No you just simply refuse to admit that you do in fact descriminate against people of higher levels.  Even though you kind of already admitted it.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have no problems with groups farming mobs in a dungeon.  You keep thinking that I am totally against farming.  I"m not."</i>Actually that is exaclty my point though.  You are only against high levels helping low levels do it while you have no problem with people around your own level doing it.  Even if they are farming a mob that you need for a quest.  You just leave them alone because they are, in your mind, the appropriate level for the zone.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>whatever you say, again, we disagree and are talking past one another"</i>I don't know why you keep skipping over the whole main point that I am arguing here.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>lol, but the high level person does get the loot from the lower level person to twink alts, sell on the market, etc."</i>That's right, it's a team thing.  The low levels have to be willing to share the loot that drops with their high level companion for them to get any.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>It's a team thing.  They are doing the tagging, you are doing the killing.""</i>No, they have to do most of the DPS or the mob will not drop any loot.  I just keep aggro for them and I don't require any heals.  They still have to be careful of AOEs however and many times they can get one-shotted from pulling the mob.  I'm telling you, it's not as easy as you think it is.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Don't tell me that you aren't putting a good portion of this crap on the maket.  Give me a break. "</i>If no one in the guild needs it then we roll on it and whoever wins it gets to put it on the broker for sale.  This is wrong?<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>You get something out of it just like the lower level person."</i>Only the satisfaction of helping my friends really.  Most of the loot that drops I have no use for and at my level it's not worth nearly enough money for me to get anything that I actually need.  T6 master spells and fabled gear sells for 5-20 pp a pice on the broker on my server.  It's especially hard for tanks too since we have to have all top notch gear and spell upgrades just to be able to do our jobs right.  Honestly, how else do you expect people to come up with that kind of money?  Especially when most of the fabled gear is no trade even.  And remember, I do not actually farm that much with them either, so it's not like we getting tons of loot anyway.  Most of the time we are just killing normal mobs for xp or getting quests done.  Like I said.</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:00 PM</span></p>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">The changes are coming, whether you like them or not.  Don't be mad at me.  I had nothing to do with it at all.</font></p></span><div></div></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote> Um, do you folks even play?  The changes have been in for 5 days now.

[infernus006]

Yeah, I already said the changes haven't done much if anything to stop any farming.  So now we are going to have people crying that the changes were not good enough and begging SOE to do more changes to try and stop farming.<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">The changes are coming, whether you like them or not.  Don't be mad at me.  I had nothing to do with it at all.</font></p></span><div></div></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote> Um, do you folks even play?  The changes have been in for 5 days now.<hr></blockquote><p>Um, yes I play.  Thanks for your constructive input.</p><p>Edit:  The only change I wasn't 100% sure about  is where the person killing the mob having to do the majority of the damage to have the best chance of the loot drop.  Sorry Pashta if I wasn't precise enough for you............:smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:43 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><p><i><font color="#ffffff">"</font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I'm not "telling" you to mentor.  Just mentioned it as an option to help your friends if that is really what you want to do.   You mentioned that you really like to help your buddies.  Well this is a good way of a higher level helping other than camping  mobs with the level 20/60 combo in lowbie dungeons."</i>And I've already explained to you why I dislike mentoring and why I refuse to do it.  Also you can't deny the fact that it's much better to have a level 60 person helping you out than someone that is exactly the same level as you.  Obviously two level 25 people are not going to be able to duo level 30 heroics very well.  <font color="#ff0000">Agreed, it is nice to have a high level person assisting you.   Much more efficient for camping named mobs.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I've found it pretty easy to set up groups with guildies or good folks you meet around Norrath."</i>Well my guildies are not quite so lucky.  They are constantly complaining that they can never find any decent people to group with that have any idea what they are doing and it makes them very frustrated with the game.  At least they have me to fall back on when they really need to get something done so they don't just up and quit the game.  <font color="#ff0000">Yes, I have been lucky.  I'm pretty good at setting up pickup groups and have met some really good friends through the /ooc and level appropriate channels.  Of course we've had some horrible people in our groups as well but I've managed to put together really good groups in 10-15 min.  Guess I've been lucky.  With server consolidations, there will be more people to choose from.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>A low level person doesn't always need to have a level 60 toon holding his/her hand.  I guess that you have a very different gaming style where you constantly help lower level toons."</i>I never said that I do it all the time.  In fact I specifically stated that I only do it once in a while, when I am asked to, when they really want the help.  It is certainly not something that I force on them.  <font color="#ff0000">Good to know that you are there to do that for your guidies.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I've never been in a guild that powelevels people so we really have two different styles of playing and very different philosophies. "</i>Yes obviously.  To each their own.  <font color="#ff0000">Agreed.</font><i>"</i></span></font><i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline">I'm not responsible for the changes.  SOE noted a problem and changed/is changing the game mechanics.  I've had nothing to do with it so stop pointing that finger at me. </span></font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i>But you are supporting the changes.  And the only reason they made the changes at all is because people like you were whining about farmers.  <font color="#ff0000">I haven't done much "whining" about farmers in the past.  In fact, I think the only posts I have made have been on the feedback threads where farming is discussed.  Voicing your opinion is not whining.  I hate it when people use that label.   I guess that you are "whining" too in support of farming</font>.  <font color="#ff0000">So we are both whiners by your definition.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have no expectation that my opinion will have any impact to SOE and their game design."</i>You may be right about that but I don't think it's a good idea to just assume that they never will.  I think we should all be very careful what we say on these boards and only say things if we really mean them.  <font color="#ff0000">Bah, the game designers are not idiots.  They play the game.  They observe what is going on in the world.  One of my favorite topics was the Harclave "nerf."  One person on these boards (who moved on) singlehandedly took  credit for the Harclave nerf.  I call BS.   When there are "nerfs" or changes, they are usually long in coming and not solely from what they read on the boards.  In the case of Harclave, the designers observed that people were flocking to Harclave to powerlevel their butts off and inbalancing the game economics/world etc.   They observed this in game, got much ingame as well as feedback on the boards.  Give the designers some credit.  They are pretty astute folks and know what is going on.   We can all come to discuss our feelings on these boards.  For everyone against something, there will someone for it too.  And everyone comes to these boards to voice their opinion.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have to remind you that you started this whole thing with your post about people being selfish and not respectful of higher levels.   That rubbed me the wrong way thus prompting my response to you in the first place."</i>And I still believe that that is true.  <font color="#ff0000">Well, we both feel strongly about things and can agree in civil fashion.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Did I say the word punished or eradicated?  Well I would like to have gold farmers (in case you nitpick, I am talking about the people who are doing it for real world profit such as gold farms) punished and eradicated.  But not all farmers."</i>Then answer my question about how to you make a change to the game that will only effect the certain kinds of farmers that you happen to dislike without effecting all the others as well as people like me who use unlocked encounters for other purposes besides farming?  <font color="#ff0000">I don't have the perfect answer on this one.  I like the idea of locking encounters on quest or named mobs, leave all the others unlocked.   Then, you could not have to implement the recent agro changes.  Just my opinion and I know it is not yours.  Then you couldn't help your guidies tackle their quest mobs.    There is much debate on how to implement something that is "fair" all around. </font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I would like to complete quests though and have a shot, during a hunting session, at a master chest drop without the level 60/20 duo competition camping the spot nonstop. "</i>Exactly so you would like to see a change to the game that prevents high level people from helping low level people if it will reduce the amount of farmers that you claim are disrupting your shot at master chests.  Which is ridiculous.  If you want the names you have to get there first.  That is the way of this game and nothing is every going to change that.  And once again you still haven't explained why the level 20/60 duo bother you more than a full group of level 20s that are doing the exact same thing.  <font color="#ff0000">Last time I will explain this.  Again, we are beating a dead horse here.  I see the 20/60 duo exploiting the game quite frankly.   I don't have problems with the level appropriate groups tackling the  named encounters for chest drops.  They have worked hard to get to the named mob and should have a chance of getting a chance at a level appropriate spell.  Heck, if an area is camped by that same group for hours, I really don't care.  Sure, I'm a bit disappointed that I couldn't get a shot at it but they were there first.   You don't have to explain to me first come, first served.  I understand that concept well.  If I see another group in the area, I leave.  Period.  But when I see the level 20/60 duo there (using my same old example of Stormhold), I shake my head.  This group will sit there for hours, killing everything around there.  Kill the named mob non stop.  They aren't doing a quest.  Nope, they are camping, camping, camping.  Sucking that mob dry of every last chest drop.  Do I get into it with the duo or be a "busybody"?  Nope, I move on but it irks me.  Now lets take a true farmer who wants to make some real money off this ability.  That would really pi$$ me off.  The level 20/60 duo would work quite well.   Fortunately, I haven't seen any of the true gold farmers in EQ2.  Sure they are there but I haven'te really been looking. </font></span></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Does it make me greedy to want a chance to kill a named when we have a hunting group (with level appropriate people)?</i>"When you support changes made to the game that prevents certain people from killing mobs that you would rather kill yourself instead then yes it does.  <font color="#ff0000">Sigh, again we disagree.  Whatever I say won't change your opinion of me.  So be it.  </font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Humm, what do you think our group members are thinking when we bust our butts to get to the named guy and some level 60/20 duo is sitting there all night long camping the spot?"</i>The same as I feel when I bust my butt to to help guildies get quests done and we get to a name that they need and it's already being camped.  There is no difference there and the levels of the people camping it makes no difference to me either.  <font color="#ff0000">The people camping that mob probably are thinking, "Oh no, here comes that level 60/level xyz."</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>You can be assured that I'm not the only one in the group thinking evil thoughts at the moment."</i>And that is exactly my whole point.  Whenever you see a high level person helping a low level it makes you mad and you think evil thoughts about them.  Just because of their level and nothing more.  ((<font color="#ff0000">nope, not at all.  I see high levels assisting low levels all the time.  You are making assumptions.</font> )And you just assume they are farming the name for loot when in fact one of the low levels might actually need the mob for a quest (<font color="#ff0000">does sitting there for 4-5 hours killing the same named over and over again helping the guildie with a quest or are you just farming?  Big difference.  Quest completion is one thing.  Farming is another.  What you are describing is farming.  I really don't have problems with quests</font>.)  Just because one of the people there is a high level, you have a problem with it.  Even if you don't actually need the mob for a quest.  That is wrong.  And that is exactly what I am talking about with this disrespect of high level people by low level people.  You see a high level person there and you feel they have no right to be there because of there level, regardless of what their motives are, even if they are just there to help someone that can't find a group. (<font color="#ff0000">How am I being disrespectful towards high levels?  Do I grief the high level in game?  Nope.  I let it go.  Don't make assumptions of my ingame behavior.  Don't expect me to grovel to you either in these forums because you are a level 60 character.  I won't</font>. )<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>We are talking past one another.  Not going to beat this dead horse."</i>No you just simply refuse to admit that you do in fact descriminate against people of higher levels.  Even though you kind of already admitted it.  <font color="#ff0000">God god, I am taking about pure and simple farming.  That is my chief complaint.  Not against level 60 characters in general.  You are getting defensive my friend.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I have no problems with groups farming mobs in a dungeon.  You keep thinking that I am totally against farming.  I"m not."</i>Actually that is exaclty my point though.  You are only against high levels helping low levels do it while you have no problem with people around your own level doing it.  Even if they are farming a mob that you need for a quest.  You just leave them alone because they are, in your mind, the appropriate level for the zone.  <font color="#ff0000">Yep, true statement.  Pretty much my feeling.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>whatever you say, again, we disagree and are talking past one another"</i>I don't know why you keep skipping over the whole main point that I am arguing here.  <font color="#ff0000">What point?  Give me the Cliff Notes version.  I think that I explained my distaste of the 60/20 duo camping versus the level appropriate people camping.  All a matter of opinion.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>lol, but the high level person does get the loot from the lower level person to twink alts, sell on the market, etc."</i>That's right, it's a team thing.  The low levels have to be willing to share the loot that drops with their high level companion for them to get any. <font color="#ff0000">yes</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>It's a team thing.  They are doing the tagging, you are doing the killing.""</i>No, they have to do most of the DPS or the mob will not drop any loot.  I just keep aggro for them and I don't require any heals.  They still have to be careful of AOEs however and many times they can get one-shotted from pulling the mob.  I'm telling you, it's not as easy as you think it is.  <font color="#ff0000">ok, wasn't sure about the majority of the damge change.  I saw it mentioned on test but wasn't sure if this was implemented.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Don't tell me that you aren't putting a good portion of this crap on the maket.  Give me a break. "</i>If no one in the guild needs it then we roll on it and whoever wins it gets to put it on the broker for sale.  This is wrong?  <font color="#ff0000">nope, but you come across and being utterly selfless and in this for no profit.  My point is that you, as the higher level person, benefit somewhat from the arrangement as well.</font><i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>You get something out of it just like the lower level person."</i>Only the satisfaction of helping my friends really.  Most of the loot that drops I have no use for and at my level it's not worth nearly enough money for me to get anything that I actually need.  T6 master spells and fabled gear sells for 5-20 pp a pice on the broker on my server.  It's especially hard for tanks too since we have to have all top notch gear and spell upgrades just to be able to do our jobs right.  Honestly, how else do you expect people to come up with that kind of money?  Especially when most of the fabled gear is no trade even.  And remember, I do not actually farm that much with them either, so it's not like we getting tons of loot anyway.  Most of the time we are just killing normal mobs for xp or getting quests done.  Like I said.  <font color="#ff0000">It is nice helping friends.  We agree on this point.</font></font></p></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:00 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[Pashta]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">The changes are coming, whether you like them or not.  Don't be mad at me.  I had nothing to do with it at all.</font></p></span><div></div></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote> Um, do you folks even play?  The changes have been in for 5 days now.<hr></blockquote><p>Um, yes I play.  Thanks for your constructive input.</p><p>Edit:  The only change I wasn't 100% sure about  is where the person killing the mob having to do the majority of the damage to have the best chance of the loot drop.  Sorry Pashta if I wasn't precise enough for you............:smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:43 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> My, aren't we a touchy one?  Maybe you're PMSing like I was the other day.  :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> Edit: Oh I get it now, you just don't like to be wrong.  :smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by Pashta on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:29 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><p><span class="headline"><font color="#ff0000">The changes are coming, whether you like them or not.  Don't be mad at me.  I had nothing to do with it at all.</font></p></span><div></div></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote> Um, do you folks even play?  The changes have been in for 5 days now.<hr></blockquote><p>Um, yes I play.  Thanks for your constructive input.</p><p>Edit:  The only change I wasn't 100% sure about  is where the person killing the mob having to do the majority of the damage to have the best chance of the loot drop.  Sorry Pashta if I wasn't precise enough for you............:smileymad:</p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:43 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> My, aren't we a touchy one?  Maybe you're PMSing like I was the other day.  :smileyvery-happy:</p><p> Edit: Oh I get it now, you just don't like to be wrong.  :smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by Pashta on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:29 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Nope not touchy at all and never had PMS thank goodness.   Hope you are feeling better.  Putting in a one line quip my dear in a snippy tone of voice gets you a response from me.  And I'm wrong all the time so not rising to that bait either (my kids and husband remind me of that all the time...:smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As I mentioned before, I'm wasn't aware that they implemented the change where the person attacking had to do the bulk of the damage.  I was aware of the agro changes but not that the damage change  had gone live. </p>

[Jgok]

<div></div>Of course, this is all a moot point now, as folks can make money and get gear they can actually use farming Solusek's Eye <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i><font color="#ffffff">"</font></i><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Agreed, it is nice to have a high level person assisting you.   Much more efficient for camping named mobs."</i>It sure is, especially when you are trying to get a pesky quest done and can't find any pickup group that's willing to sit there and camp a mob with you just so you can get a quest update update from it.  Especially if the mob is hard to spawn.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Voicing your opinion is not whining."</i>Whining = complaining.  Same thing.  And when people complain about stuff that other people do that is really none of their business since it really doesn't effect them in any really negative way then I definitely call that whining.  Especially when they want changes made to the system that actually prevents people from doing what they want just so the whiners can get thier way.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>One of my favorite topics was the Harclave "nerf."</i>That's another thing that I disagreed with.  But at least it doesn't effect me at all now.  Changing the way aggro works in the game effects everyone no matter what level they are.</span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>"I like the idea of locking encounters on quest or named mobs, leave all the others unlocked.   Then, you could not have to implement the recent agro changes.  Just my opinion and I know it is not yours.  Then you couldn't help your guidies tackle their quest mobs."</i>That just goes to prove my point that you will accept any change made to this game that prevents high levels from helping low levels in any way at all.  As long as it prevents them from killing or helping to kill mobs that you want for yourself.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I don't have problems with the level appropriate groups tackling the named encounters for chest drops."</i>Even if they are farming them and "milking them dry" as you call it?  Even if you need the mob for a quest and they won't let you have it because they are too greedy for the loot?  Think about it this way...at least if there is a 20/60 duo camping the name you can easily group with the level 20 person to get your quest update and I seriously doubt they will care whereas a full group of people your level are more likely to tell you to bug off.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Heck, if an area is camped by that same group for hours, I really don't care.  Sure, I'm a bit disappointed that I couldn't get a shot at it but they were there first."</i>The same thing goes if a high level person is there first.  Like I said, it doesn't matter what level the person is that's there.  They are still a person who plays the game just like you and they have the same right to be there as you or anyone else in the game.  Your rights to camp mobs in any zone do not diminish with level.  And if the high level person is just there to help a lower level person then it makes even less of a difference.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>If I see another group in the area, I leave.  Period.  But when I see the level 20/60 duo there (using my same old example of Stormhold), I shake my head.  This group will sit there for hours, killing everything around there.  Kill the named mob non stop.  They aren't doing a quest.  Nope, they are camping, camping, camping."</i>I still don't see why this is any more "wrong" than a group of same levels doing the exact same thing.  IMO there is no difference there at all.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Sucking that mob dry of every last chest drop."</i>Once again it is not possible to suck any mob dry of any chest drops.  There is no such thing as a "last chest drop".  Let's get real.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Do I get into it with the duo or be a "busybody"?  Nope, I move on but it irks me."</i>This just goes to further my point that this whole topic really has nothing at all to do with farming.  You just don't like seeing high level and low level people together at all, regardless of what they are doing.  There is nothing more to it than that.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>The people camping that mob probably are thinking, "Oh no, here comes that level 60/level xyz."</i>Exactly.  And there is no reason I should be thought of that way because I am not there to hurt anyone.  That is not fair.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>nope, not at all.  I see high levels assisting low levels all the time.  You are making assumptions."</i>Not at all.  I am going by exactly what you have said on this thread.  You have basically outright admitted it yourself.  You said that you have no problem at all with a full group your level farming a named mob, you only have a problem with farming when it's done by people that are getting help from a higher level person.  You said it "irks" you.  Now you are contradicting yourself.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>does sitting there for 4-5 hours killing the same named over and over again helping the guildie with a quest or are you just farming?"</i>I don't understand...you actually just sit there for 4-5 hours watching these people while they farm the same mob?  That seems kind of odd to me.  In any case you have no arguement here.  You already admitted that you have no problem at all with farming.  You only have a problem with certain people who do it based on their level.  Which, by the way, is blatent discrimination.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Quest completion is one thing.  Farming is another.  What you are describing is farming.  I really don't have problems with quests."</i>Are you denying that whenever you see a high level person helping a low level person camp a named mob that you just automatcially assume that they are farmers?<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>How am I being disrespectful towards high levels?  Do I grief the high level in game?  Nope.  I let it go.  Don't make assumptions of my ingame behavior."</i>I never said you did that.  It's your attitude that is disrespectful though.  As you admitted yourself already, you can't stand seeing high level people and low level people helping each other and I have no doubt that you lable them as farmers anytime you see them anywhere near the area of any named mob.  Earlier you complained about them not responding to your tells.  I bet you sent a tell a high level person one time and they didn't reply back so now you never bother sending any tells to any high level people because you always just assume now that they are all farmers and that they won't bother replying to any tells you send them.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Don't expect me to grovel to you either in these forums because you are a level 60 character.  I won't."</i>Oh jeez...get a grip, like I ever asked you to do that.  I mean really, come on.  Now I guess anytime I have any kind of disagreement with a lower level person then I am "griefing" them and I have no right to argue with them about anything at all because it will make them cry.  Give me a break.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>God god, I am taking about pure and simple farming.  That is my chief complaint.  Not against level 60 characters in general."</i>Oh no, you have already admitted that you have no problem whatsoever with people your level farming names as long as they don't have any high level person with them.  Are you trying to go back on that now?<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>Yep, true statement.  Pretty much my feeling."</i>I really wish you would make up your mind here.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>I think that I explained my distaste of the 60/20 duo camping versus the level appropriate people camping."</i>Actually no becuase you keep contradicting yourself so bad.  In one sentence you say that you have no problem with high levels helping low levels get quests done and you only have a problem with them if they are farming for loot...but then on the next line you say that you have no problem with farming except when it's done by people that have a certain amount of level distance between them.  And then you outright admit that you don't like seeing any high levels helping any low levels with anything at all and that you would rather have them change all encounters back to being autolocked so it's not even possible for them to do at all.  Anyways, don't forget, the vast majority of the quests in this game require some kind of camping at some point.  And then you want to talk to me about judging people.  Whenver you see a high level person with a low level one you immediatly judge them and you judge them poorly.  Well that is your right and I really couldn't care less about your personal opinion of me.  Once again my only real concern here is actual changes being made to the game to prevent people from playing the game the way they want just because some people disagree with it even though it doesn't actually hurt them in any way at all.  Like I have said, they only want the chages to be made so they wil have less competition for named mobs.  That is all there is to it.  They use farming as an excuse and try to make it sound like it's a whole lot worse that it really is so that changes will be made to the game to prevent certain people from having any chance at the named mobs in certain zones.  Because the less chance other people have the more chance they will have.  Plain and simple.  It doesn't get any more selfish than that.<i>"</i></span></font><font color="#ffffff"><span class="headline"><i>My point is that you, as the higher level person, benefit somewhat from the arrangement as well."</i>So what?  It's not the main reason why I do it.  I already said, if my help was not appreciated then I would not bother offering it.</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:52 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div>Not going to debate this with you anymore Infernus.  We are on different wave lengths on this issue.  You are making generalizations about me that frankly are not true.   I could write 50 more replies and we will still be going back and forth.  It all comes down to opinion at the end.  Wasting more time on these boards when I could be playing.  </div><div> </div><div>Happy gaming. </div>

[sarsippi]

<div></div><p>I admit, I'm a farmer.</p><p>is this the club for farmers anonymous?</p><p>So, everytime a lvl 60 goes to poets, they are farmers. Everytime some one gathers from a node, which they dont need, they are farmers. Everytime some one kills a named mob, which was most likely out of the way, they are farmers.</p><p>Can anyone actually say they arent a farmer?</p><p>Some people run around SS all day gathering nodes, hoping for a rare. Some people run around RoV-RE-CT-SE etc., hoping for a rare. Some people do a couple instances a day, when ever their lock out timer runs out, hoping for a rare. Do they actually need the rare? Maybe, maybe not, do they need more coin? Sure. There will always be something to buy. Maybe a rare piece of furniture, maybe a master spell or adept 3 you dont have, maybe an armor upgrade. Theres no way to get that stuff with out having some coin, unless you go out and farm it all yourself. But hey wait.. you're still farming. I'm referring to a rare as not just a TS rare, but legendary armor or fabled items.</p><p>I farm, I know it. I take the route of running around zones and killing named... and throwing in a few instances here and there. Only like 3 times have  I done anything but solo to do it. Once was with a couple friends, in RE, only for an hour. I wanted to show them some good spots that they could duo if they needed some coin, cause everyone needs coin. Another was with a friend, he was bored and wanted to duo some, we were the same lvl. Another was with a lower lvl RL friend and I mentored down to him, the whole time. I didnt grey out any mobs cause I was in the group, this was actually after the change that stopped that from working. I just mentored down and we killed anything in our way while heading to named mobs. I let him loot everything, and he got a couple lvls out of it. I'm lvl 60, with masters and adept 3's. I've upgraded the main ones I want so im set for gear/ spell upgrades, unless I see a good fabled item on a broker, which wont happen for my lvl heh. Does that mean I should stop farming? Plat is worthless to me now? I have a lvl 40 carpenter im working on, and I make all my own furniture, one of each while lvling up, including rare pieces.. but I dont need plat for that. The expansion is right around the corner, a whole new tier of Armor/ weapons / spells and upgrades.. I dont need plat for that either, right? I'm figuring if I buy armor/ weapons, rare pieces as soon as it comes out, it'll cost me about 4 plat for each item. Theres 19 pieces I need to upgrade. Ok, I dont need to, I dont need all rare crafted armor, or fabled later on.. but who doesnt want that? So 19 pieces .. thats 76 plat im figuring on spending for T7 rare crafted armor/ weapons/ jewlery. Thats not even counting spells and such. How else do people earn that with out farming? TS's? Sure, could do that, I do that also, a bit. I have some loyal customers for my lvl 60 sage who mail me the orders. Thats pretty much the only way I do TS orders. I dont like standing around in game, sitting there with LFW up. I could run around some where and have LFW tag up, but then I might as well just be standing there and LFW... cause then I'll get interupted, have to go to town, get the rare, make the item, bring it to the person and then go back to what I was doing. During that time I could've made twice that while farming.  So, what exactly is wrong with trying to better your char through upgrades, purchased from plat?</p><p>Now personally, I dont like seeing a lvl 23 parked in Sols eye in Lord Cranas room, next to a lvl 60 conjuror. ( I just seen this the other day). I mean, its obvious what hes doing there. Group with the lvl 60, which will average the group down to 41.5, which means any mob in the zone he can kill for a reward. Or, same example, two lvl 60's in CT with a lower lvl parked at zone in, which then all they have to do is group him when they want to kill a named, then disband him and roam around the zone agro free. They dont even have to disband him anymore with the new ways that agro from mobs work while grouped with lower lvls.</p><p>Nor do I like seeing a group of lvl 60's at the top of that rock, in PoF, where the higher lvl sandcrawlers are, constantly killing the groups of lvl 56-58 sandcrawler goblins. I've only been up there 3 nights, for a quest and each night they were there the whole time.. actually it was like 2 nights and one day. Also just noticed last night this group of people are on the most killed npcs for my server. Hmm, can you say bots?  </p><p>So really, the argument of this thread should be... you cant better your class through upgrades.. When you ding lvl 10-20-30 and so on, you will get armor assigned to you, and thats what you get.</p>

[infernus006]

All these people who whine about farming are just not very smart if you ask me because they just don't seem to realize that<b> <font color="#ff0000">this whole game is built on farming</font><font color="#ff0000">.</font></b>  It's not like it's that hard to see either.  There is no way around it.  You can't get anything worthwhile done unless you do some kind of farming.  That's just the way it was made, like it or not.  <font color="#ff0000"><b>Questing, harvesting, crafting, and looting...they are all just different forms of farming.</b></font>  Take, for example, a quest that requires you to kill a certain type of mob for random updates...lets say you need like 25 random updates and they only come from a certain type of mob that only spawns in a certain section of a certain zone.  You may have to kill upwards to 100 of those same mobs to get all the updates you need to complete the quest.  That literally forces you to farm those mobs for those quest updates.  You kill the ones that are up and wait for them to respawn and then kill them again as soon as they repop and you keep doing it over and over again for an extended period of time until you get what you want.  Guess what...that is farming. <font color="#ff0000"><b>It doesn't make any difference that you are farming for quest updates instead of loot.  None at all.  It is still farming just the same.</b></font>  It's not like you won't be getting some loot in the meantime either.  You will.  Maybe just vendor loot but still, when you save up enough vendor loot you can make some decent money from it.  And even if the mobs are gray you will still get body loot and there is some body loot in the game now that's actually worth quite a bit of cash, and that adds up top.  You may also get some decent items and ad1 spell scrolls that are worth something on the broker.  Not to mention XP (unless you're at the level cap).  In any case there are many people who will stay in one area like that for extended periods of time and kill the same mobs over and over just because they drop decent loot.  Maybe stuff they actually need or maybe stuff they just want to sell for cash.  Or maybe they are only doing it to help a friend get something they need.  Either way, <font color="#ff0000"><b>there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.</b></font>  Plus, the devs even made it so that a named mob will pop in such areas so then common mobs that are needed for quests are actually PH's for a named in many cases.  So that way while you are farming the mobs for quest updates you have a chance to pop a named that might drop some really nice loot at the same time.  That creates a situation where there can literally be <font color="#ff0000"><b>farming on top of farming</b></font>...and<b> <font color="#ff0000">it was made that way on purpose.</font></b>  And then there's the people who run around looking for one specific type of node to harvest because they need a certain type of common material or rare and they don't want to waste a bunch of extra time harvesting from the other nodes that they don't give them anything they need at that time.  There's also lots of people who run around hogging up all the stones and ore just because the rares from them are generally worth more than the other types of rares on the market and they only want to sell them on the broker for plat.  All farming.  All the same.  That really bothers some people but only because that leaves less of the nodes available for them to get for the same purpose.  But you know what?  That is just too bad.  <b><font color="#ff0000">Everything in this game is on a first-come-first-serve basis</font>.</b>  There are no "camping rights" outside of player-made rules of conduct.  Even when someone blatently steals a name from you that you spent hours getting to spawn, there is nothing that SOE can or will do about it.  Once someone has gained access to a valuable resource they are going to farm it for all it's worth, for as long as they can, to get the most out of it.  That is just common sense.  And if that's the way someone chooses to spend their time there is not a thing you or SOE can do about it.  Let's face it, people who are smart will figure out the best ways to get what they want as quickly and easily as possible and they will stick to using those methods regardless of what others think about it.  And other people will get jealous of their success, no doubt.  But oh well.  Who really cares?  It is just a game after all.  And it's really quite sad IMO because the real problem is that they are just not willing to put forth the necessary time and energy or use the right tactics to get what they want and then<b> <font color="#ff0000">they whine to have the game nerfed just so everyone else will be forced to suck just as much as them.</font>  </b>They really want to be able to go into any dungeon and have all the names just be up and not have to camp them at all or have them being camped by any other people.  You know something else, I find it funny when the people who complain about farming claim that they have no intention or desire for doing any real farming themselves...that is a blatent lie.  Because if that was the case then they would have no interest in any of the mobs that other people farm to begin with.  They would only do instanced dungeons where most of the names are either just there or autospawned somehow.  If they are really against farming then they would have no interest in going into places with names that you are required to farm PH's for in order to make spawn.  <b><font color="#ff0000">It's all just a ploy to cull the population of farmers so they will have more access to the nice farming spots for themselves.</font>  </b>I say to hell with these farmer haters, don't listen to their whining.  <b><font color="#ff0000">They only want to ruin the game for everyone.</font></b><div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sarsippius wrote:<div></div><p>I admit, I'm a farmer.</p><p>is this the club for farmers anonymous?</p><p>So, everytime a lvl 60 goes to poets, they are farmers. Everytime some one gathers from a node, which they dont need, they are farmers. Everytime some one kills a named mob, which was most likely out of the way, they are farmers.</p><p>Can anyone actually say they arent a farmer?</p><p>Some people run around SS all day gathering nodes, hoping for a rare. Some people run around RoV-RE-CT-SE etc., hoping for a rare. Some people do a couple instances a day, when ever their lock out timer runs out, hoping for a rare. Do they actually need the rare? Maybe, maybe not, do they need more coin? Sure. There will always be something to buy. Maybe a rare piece of furniture, maybe a master spell or adept 3 you dont have, maybe an armor upgrade. Theres no way to get that stuff with out having some coin, unless you go out and farm it all yourself. But hey wait.. you're still farming. I'm referring to a rare as not just a TS rare, but legendary armor or fabled items.</p><p>I farm, I know it. I take the route of running around zones and killing named... and throwing in a few instances here and there. Only like 3 times have  I done anything but solo to do it. Once was with a couple friends, in RE, only for an hour. I wanted to show them some good spots that they could duo if they needed some coin, cause everyone needs coin. Another was with a friend, he was bored and wanted to duo some, we were the same lvl. Another was with a lower lvl RL friend and I mentored down to him, the whole time. I didnt grey out any mobs cause I was in the group, this was actually after the change that stopped that from working. I just mentored down and we killed anything in our way while heading to named mobs. I let him loot everything, and he got a couple lvls out of it. I'm lvl 60, with masters and adept 3's. I've upgraded the main ones I want so im set for gear/ spell upgrades, unless I see a good fabled item on a broker, which wont happen for my lvl heh. Does that mean I should stop farming? Plat is worthless to me now? I have a lvl 40 carpenter im working on, and I make all my own furniture, one of each while lvling up, including rare pieces.. but I dont need plat for that. The expansion is right around the corner, a whole new tier of Armor/ weapons / spells and upgrades.. I dont need plat for that either, right? I'm figuring if I buy armor/ weapons, rare pieces as soon as it comes out, it'll cost me about 4 plat for each item. Theres 19 pieces I need to upgrade. Ok, I dont need to, I dont need all rare crafted armor, or fabled later on.. but who doesnt want that? So 19 pieces .. thats 76 plat im figuring on spending for T7 rare crafted armor/ weapons/ jewlery. Thats not even counting spells and such. How else do people earn that with out farming? TS's? Sure, could do that, I do that also, a bit. I have some loyal customers for my lvl 60 sage who mail me the orders. Thats pretty much the only way I do TS orders. I dont like standing around in game, sitting there with LFW up. I could run around some where and have LFW tag up, but then I might as well just be standing there and LFW... cause then I'll get interupted, have to go to town, get the rare, make the item, bring it to the person and then go back to what I was doing. During that time I could've made twice that while farming.  So, what exactly is wrong with trying to better your char through upgrades, purchased from plat?</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><u>Now personally, I dont like seeing a lvl 23 parked in Sols eye in Lord Cranas room, next to a lvl 60 conjuror. ( I just seen this the other day). I mean, its obvious what hes doing there. Group with the lvl 60, which will average the group down to 41.5, which means any mob in the zone he can kill for a reward. Or, same example, two lvl 60's in CT with a lower lvl parked at zone in, which then all they have to do is group him when they want to kill a named, then disband him and roam around the zone agro free. They dont even have to disband him anymore with the new ways that agro from mobs work while grouped with lower lvls.</u></font></p><p>Nor do I like seeing a group of lvl 60's at the top of that rock, in PoF, where the higher lvl sandcrawlers are, constantly killing the groups of lvl 56-58 sandcrawler goblins. I've only been up there 3 nights, for a quest and each night they were there the whole time.. actually it was like 2 nights and one day. Also just noticed last night this group of people are on the most killed npcs for my server. Hmm, can you say bots?  </p><p>So really, the argument of this thread should be... you cant better your class through upgrades.. When you ding lvl 10-20-30 and so on, you will get armor assigned to you, and thats what you get.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I agree with you totally here.  I've been labeled on this thread as being against farming which I am not.  We all farm in one fashion or another.  What I don't like is exactly what you wrote and I highlighted in red and underlined.  Or the low level tagging and the high level doing the majority of the killing (pre agro changes of course).  Nonstop, in one spot.  But others on this thread will call you selfish and greedy for having that opinion.</p><p> </p>

[StormCinder]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Edit:  In response to StormCinder,  I'm not "asking" SOE to do anything.  I'm but a small fish in the ocean.  I'm coming to the boards to express my opinion---Floria's---about farming.  SOE is already making these changes so it's in the works.  Nothing that Floria "asked" them to do.  Sigh, I'm outnumbered on this farming issue but it is fun to debate on these boards isn't it......:smileywink<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />eace.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>My mistake.  I thought people posted their opinions on the forum in order to attract attention to issues that they are concerned with in the hopes that other people might agree or enjoin a debate and possibly have a postitive (in their minds) impact on the game.  Didn't realize that some people only post on here for the narcisstic gratification.  I apologize.</p><p>SC</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>StormCinder wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:<div></div><div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Edit:  In response to StormCinder,  I'm not "asking" SOE to do anything.  I'm but a small fish in the ocean.  I'm coming to the boards to express my opinion---Floria's---about farming.  SOE is already making these changes so it's in the works.  Nothing that Floria "asked" them to do.  Sigh, I'm outnumbered on this farming issue but it is fun to debate on these boards isn't it......:smileywink<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />eace.</div></div><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>My mistake.  I thought people posted their opinions on the forum in order to attract attention to issues that they are concerned with in the hopes that other people might agree or enjoin a debate and possibly have a postitive (in their minds) impact on the game.  Didn't realize that some people only post on here for the narcisstic gratification.  I apologize.</p><p>SC</p><hr></blockquote><p>I come to these boards to see what others think about the game, ask for advice, get tips on my class, discuss issues.  The developers certainly read these boards to see what the general consensus is in the community, solicit feedback, etc.  The point that I was trying to make (before you called me a narcissis) was that I'm not asking SOE to do anything.  I am not "demanding" anything.  I was simply weighing in on the topic being discussed.  I've never complained about farming nor have brought it to SOE's attention as a serious problem.  I've never been a lobbyist for stopping farming.  </p><p>I'm just one little voice on these threads.  We all have opinions on farming.  I am not trying to get you to agree with me nor make you conform to my style of game play. I'm just expressing what I personally feel about farming (and have received much flaming in the process).   Sorry if you misinterpreted what I wrote.</p><p> </p>

[infernus006]

<i>"What I don't like is exactly what you wrote and I highlighted in red and underlined.  Or the low level tagging and the high level doing the majority of the killing (pre agro changes of course).  Nonstop, in one spot.  But others on this thread will call you selfish and greedy for having that opinion."</i>It's not that people have an opinion about it that worries me, it's when they want changes made to the game to actually prevent it.<i>"I'm not asking SOE to do anything.  I am not "demanding" anything.  I was simply weighing in on the topic being discussed.  I've never complained about farming nor have brought it to SOE's attention as a serious problem.  I've never been a lobbyist for stopping farming."</i>Right...you are sharing your opinion and your opinion is that high level people helping low level people or vice versa to farm named mobs for loot is wrong and should be stopped.  And people who have a different opinion than you are sharing their opinion and explaining why they think your opinion is either wrong or not feasible without totally screwing up the game for everyone.  And then you get all upset about it and try to act like you don't have any real stance on the issue when you have already made it quite obvious that you do and then you act as though you are being attacked but in reality no one has actually attacked you at all here, at least not personally.  We are all just sharing our opinions.I do find it rather strange though that you keep insisting that you never supported the idea of having any kind of changes made to the game in order to prevent any kind of farming yet you still get so defensive whenever someone attacks the people who did do that, as if they are attacking you personally.  Why is that?<div></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>I thought we laid it to rest Infernus? But I will comment once more</p><p>I will say it again.  I never did any lobbying for this change.  I'm commenting as we all are on the agro changes.  I don't get really upset with different opinions.  We all have them and that is what makes the world so interesting.  But when we start resorting to name calling on these boards labeling anyone who supports the agro changes as idiots and simpleminded, well I take exception to that.   Yes, I do take it personally because your comment was meanspirited and pretty generalizing too.</p><p> Am I asking for changes to the game from SOE?  Do you hear me on these boards "demanding" SOE does this or that?  Nope, it was a done deal and that is what these feedback forums are for.  You have your opinion and I have mine.  </p><p>I don't think that I've changed my stance much as all.  I don't like two types of farming (true for profit gold farmers and the high level/low level trivializing content).  I am not totally happy with the agro changes and I hope that SOE continues to tweak this in the future.  I like the idea that someone proposed about if you are the "legit" level range of a group, perhaps not have the new agro changes apply.  This would allow normal groups to do their thing as they have done in the past.  I don't know the answer to this.  One thing is clear, SOE has infuriated a lot of people and that is not good for the game.  If it means going back to the old system and keeping people happy, I'm all for that too.  Keeping the game healthy in the long term is what I would like to see and not making sweeping changes all the time.  I've been pretty consistent on that stance as well.</p><p>Again, I'm a pretty easy going player regardless of what you think.  I'm not sitting here gloating this has happened.  It is a pain to adventure with any  groups now.  Yes, this has probably impacted the type of farming I don't like but it also hurts many groups.  I am confident that this will be worked out and SOE will find a solution.  Fingers crossed.</p>

[rc3]

<div></div><p>Ok i am a farmer to. But i farm for thangs that i can use like master pets. I solo farm . I dont have any help from high lvl toons. If some one is already camping the mobs that i need or if thay are whating for that mob to pop i go on. I dont camp quest mobs unless i need them for that quest. So not everyone is a s.o.b that farm mobs. The only  way farming is going to stop is to take master drops out of the game.</p><p> </p>

[Jazzmaster]

<div></div><div>/agree w/ HappyFunBall</div><div> </div><div>Farming is being totally confused w/ botting in this thread.  If I take my 60 coercer to Clefts of Rujark and kill all the nameds by Invising to them, and soloing them, am I farming?  If I take my 60 bruiser and slaughter Sandscrawler Goblins in Pillars of Flame, am I farming.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right I am.</div><div> </div><div>Farming is just not wrong at all folks.  Anyone who says farming is cheap/illegal/stupid, w/e, is very niave.  The entire point of EQ1 or 2 imo, was to make your character the best.  Obviously you want to make that happen as fast as possible.  Cash is any eash way to do that, and to say that anyone who is attempting to make cash quickly is wrong is absurd.  IMHO, some people just understand the game mechanics and ecomomy better, and consequenly they know how to make money faster than others.  They should not be attacked for playing the game they want to play.</div><div> </div><div>When I farm, I don't steal peoples mobs.  I don't attack their encounters (although lovesthesnowpian on nektulos sure f'n deserves it, or eduxa for that matter).  I also don't attack a mob (named or w/e) when it's obvious that someone is gonna pull it.  It's pretty easy to observe when a group, or a person is trying to clear to a named or mob.  However, if they are mid combat and got a group to go before a named, your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right i'm pulling it.  Mobs are CONTESTED for a reason.  When terrorantula pops, does one raid guild go to the other, " Oh, we killled it last week, so now it's your turn! ".  No. </div><div> </div><div>Whether solo or grouped, farming is fine w/ good manners.  However, the problem that imho exists is the obvious bot squads everywhere.  When you see a guy move, who is /anon and not guilded, and 4 other /anon non-guilded people are AF on him, something is up.  Then you see this same crew pulling every mob in sight in PoF, you can't talk w/ them to reason w/ them.  Then you get a mob before they do finally.  Then they try to train you.  Then you FD, and they have to zone.  Then they follow you around for 2 hours trying to train you somemore.  All the while your thinking, how the f am I going to out pull a guy w/ 5 classes buffs on.</div><div> </div><div>I'm more than willing to share known farming locations.  I have on numerous occasions, and will continue to do so.  I WILL not share my shot at spawns w/ some guy who either refuses to respond to you or doesn't speak English, or is continually flamed in 50-59 for being a bastage. </div><div> </div><div>Finally, I would just like to say something to the people that think my farming is ruining your fun:  You are in fact ruining my fun by making me take the time to explain this, when I could in fact be working on making myself more uber, which I in fact find fun.</div><div> </div><div>Love, peace, chicken grease</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Jazzmaster67 on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:39 AM</span></p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><i>"I thought we laid it to rest Infernus?"</i>Not sure what you're talking about.  No one is forcing you to continue posting on this thead.  So if you don't want to talk about the issue anymore then do yourself a favor and stop posting already.  But just because you are tried of talking about it doesn't mean that everyone else is and I'm not going to shut up about it just because you want me to.<i>"I am not totally happy with the agro changes and I hope that SOE continues to tweak this in the future.  I like the idea that someone proposed about if you are the "legit" level range of a group, perhaps not have the new agro changes apply.  This would allow normal groups to do their thing as they have done in the past.  I don't know the answer to this."</i>Right, so just as I have been saying all along (and you keep denying this) the real problem you have is not with farming at all but simply just high level people being able to help low level people do anything, no matter what it is.  Even if it's not for farming at all but just helping them do simple quests or whatever.  You said it "irks" you when you see a high level and a low level teamed together.  You don't care if they are farming or not.  You are just against it no matter what they are doing and would in fact like to see changes made to the game (notice I did not say that you're demanding them) that prevents that from being possible.  Your issue has nothing at all to do with farming.  And as much as you may try to deny it you have already proven that you would be happy to see SOE make changes that would impose your morals on other people in the game who don't agree with them and force everyone to play the game exactly the way you think they should.  Once again you may not be demanding them or even asking for them outright but your main purpose on this thread is to support them nonetheless.<i>"I don't think that I've changed my stance much as all.  I don't like two types of farming (true for profit gold farmers and the high level/low level trivializing content)."</i>Oh but you have.  Because first you said you didn't have any problem with high levels helping low levels with quests and such as long as they were not farming for names.  Now you claim that any high level/low level duo or team is "trivializing content" and therefore you must believe that measures should be taken to prevent that just as much as any kind of farming.  Even if you are not "demanding" them per se I have no dobut that you would still support any kind of change made to this game for the purpose of preventing that which you admit now you are truly against.  See...you just can't seem to make up your mind what you really believe in.<i>"Farming is being totally confused w/ botting in this thread."</i><div></div><p>I totally agree.  But it's not just on this thread either, it seems like almost everyone is making that mistake.  I think the reason is because when people who don't know any better (which seems like a lot of people) see a high level helping a low level camp for a name they just automatically assume that they are bots.  They just can't seem to fathom the idea that there are actually real people playing those chars and actually having some fun playing the game that way.  Either that or they just don't care and just want to cull the population of farmers any way possible, like I said, to reduce the amount of competion for names they might want to farm themselves.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:52 PM</span></p>

[Flor]

<div></div><p>I give up trying to explain my position to you Infernus.   It is a losing proposition.  Such generalizing and not really what I feel at all.  And not the type of player I am at all.  But if you want me to be the target of your rage against SOE, go for it. </p><p>Sigh, going back to playing since our server problems were finally fixed.  We've been offline for over a day.</p>

[matinisback]

<div></div><div></div><p>I am a farmer and what is so wrong with it ? the only time i do farm is becasue some 1 [Removed for Content] me off  like when i was in rov  i got a tell from some 1 saying "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] YOU LVL 60 GET OUT OF MY ZONE me being hot headed would not alow that so i farmed to my little hearts content</p><p>Message Edited by coltsfancolts on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:21 PM</span></p>

[Cheopis]

<div></div><p>Therodge, you need not farm, raid, or be a heavily established character to have the money to buy expensive items.  I have a lvl 9 Troubador, lvl 30 Provisioner who has generated about 50 gold during his existence, and his income increases every time he gets into a new teir of food creation - currently, with his food priced at half of what others are asking for the same exact items, he has about 30 gold worth of food and drink in his vault.  I am going to log in soon and let the coins shower on me like Scrooge McDuck <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> He has never left Qeynos.  He buys from the broker, makes food, and sells through his vault.  Certainly this is not the path that most, or even many would choose, but it is a path you can take.  I do have a combat character who is a lvl 25 Paladin who normally solos, and occasionally dabbles in outfitting, eventually to become a weaponsmith.</p><p>While hunting in the field, if you simply decide that you will harvest from one single type of resource, say, timber, you can create a significant income simply by collecting between bouts of hunting.  When I do decide to sell raws that I have gathered with my combat alt, I sell T2 wood and metal for 50c per unit, and they sell reasonably fast.  He will soon be finishing back quests (He's an Ogre Paladin, had completed all pre-15 in-Freeport quests, and now must catch up with questing on the Qeynos/Antonica side)  Since He is a low 20's outfitter, he has made himself a full set of 8 slot bags, plus the newbie 12 slot bag, giving him plenty of room for collecting three or four types of materials, with room to spare for food/drink and different weapons.  Normally he will collect any ore or timber that he sees between fights.  Between my Provisioner and my Ogre Paladin, I have the Ogre Paladin using three master level spells (two bought, one perk), and all but three other spells and abilities that he uses are adept I or higher.</p>

[infernus006]

<div></div><i>"you need not farm, raid, or be a heavily established character to have the money to buy expensive items.  I have a lvl 9 Troubador, lvl 30 Provisioner who has generated about 50 gold during his existence, and his income increases every time he gets into a new teir of food creation"</i>Not everyone can stomach crafting though.  I for one cannot.  I have tried it but it only winds up frustrating me more than anything else and i can't really get anything worthwhile done by it.  I hate having to spend hours and hours harvesting for tons of raws and making a bajillion different subcomponents just to get one pristine item out of a green recipe.  Maybe when they take all the subcomponents out of every recipe in the game like they said they're going to in the expansion then I will start doing it more...but then crafting is going to be a lot easier for everyone to do and a lot more people will start doing it so then all crafted items are going to become a lot cheaper and they aren't going to generate nearly as much income for people as they did in the past.  I personally am happy about the change though and I am looking forward to it because I really would like to be able to craft some of my own items without having to pay someone else a lot of money to do it.Anyways...my point is that farming is and always will be the main source of income for some people in this game and nothing is ever going to change that.  And when there is a faster and easier way to get something done you can't blame people for taking advantage of it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:41 PM</span></p>

[Daisy Lou]

<span><blockquote><hr>discord37 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div></div><hr>Wow.... he doesn't know you can shut off the XP bar and stop leveling? Farmers = suck. It is so easy to make enough for a horse in a few days in this game it's silly. I have to admit I can't wait to have time to go "farm" in RE when my alts are big enough, but I still would never flood the market. Mostly I want to get masters for myself and friend's up and coming alts. If I had extras to sell, I wouldn't put up more than 1 of the same one at a time.. being a 60 provisioner I'm disgusted with people who farm and TS bot for the sake of flooding the markets. (sorry but if you have 10 stacks of mental core breeches up you are going to have a hard time convincing me you are a real player or one who does not bot).</blockquote><hr></blockquote>ROFL!  OR Just maybe that toon is trying to level off an item that sells for 12g a pop on the broker and that everyone wants to buy.  You know at lower tiers you can make a few stacks and level, but in T6 and T7 is takes significantly more raws to level (ie significantly more stacks produced) especially with T7 giving you 2 each combine.  I don't see how anyone leveling up in T7 wouldn't have a ton of stacks of something for sale.  Maybe you just give yours away, but I like to sell mine =)</span><div></div>

[Persi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div></div><p>DONT make all fable and lege loot N0-TRADE, NO-TRADE is the worst possible solution (ALL t6 fable gear (not masters) are no-trade. (I can write lots on T6 no-trade items and why it is terrible)</p><p>Things should try to remain free-market, if I get a master I can't use I will try to sell it so I can BUY a master that I can use, MAKING me quest for every master I need would make me start looking for another game, on our server prices are insane.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Why is the worst solution ? because it actually will make people to be in their current lvl zones to get what they need ? because it would make tradeskill much worth than going inside a dungeon of low lvls and farm it ?</p><p>Free market ? if a tradeskiller make an adept 3 shouldnt be able to sell it too ? but do you know something? with all those masters in the market undercutting the prices, being cheaper than rares of that tier to make adept 3... do you really believe that the current system is fair ?</p><p> </p><p>You didnt say any point for why fabled item should remain tradeable, just because you want to be able to sell them...</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Why would you make fabled items NO-TRADE? </p><p> </p><p>Orontes</p><p>Assassin on Unrest</p><p></p>

[thepriz]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Godwrath wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sir Blight wrote:<div></div><p>DONT make all fable and lege loot N0-TRADE, NO-TRADE is the worst possible solution (ALL t6 fable gear (not masters) are no-trade. (I can write lots on T6 no-trade items and why it is terrible)</p><p>Things should try to remain free-market, if I get a master I can't use I will try to sell it so I can BUY a master that I can use, MAKING me quest for every master I need would make me start looking for another game, on our server prices are insane.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Why is the worst solution ? because it actually will make people to be in their current lvl zones to get what they need ? because it would make tradeskill much worth than going inside a dungeon of low lvls and farm it ?</p><p>Free market ? if a tradeskiller make an adept 3 shouldnt be able to sell it too ? but do you know something? with all those masters in the market undercutting the prices, being cheaper than rares of that tier to make adept 3... do you really believe that the current system is fair ?</p><p> </p><p>You didnt say any point for why fabled item should remain tradeable, just because you want to be able to sell them...</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>It is the worst idea to make things no-trade. The attunement feature of items works very well. As for Adept III not selling, well in my opinion it is because they are way overpriced. I have not found one adept III on the market priced in a range that I could buy it at the level I was at. I could harvest the rares and make an adept III before I could earn enough money to buy the Adept III I was looking for. If I tried to earn the money, I would out level the Spell before I could afford the adept III version of it. Yes, I beleive the current system is fair. It is called supply and demand. The supply is there for Master 1 (which are priced even more rediculous than adept III) are increased and the demand for adept III are down (a Fair system in my book).</span></div>