Devs, Please leave the crafting alone

[GregJZ]

More problems are being caused from the changes then it is helping.  Leave the crafting alone.  Just add the spells dedicated for the specific classes and move on.People enjoyed the crafting system the way it was.  For those that didnt, then oh well they didnt have to craft.  Taking out subcomponents is making a mistake and making this game easier.  It was somewhat a timesink, but you still had to pay attention while doing new recipes and making the components for the new recipes. If anything, when a recipe turns grey then take out the subcomponents.  But green and above keep the subcomponents.  PLEASE!!!!<div></div>

[Fennir]

I was 2nd jeweler to 60 on my server, and I can say I 100% did not enjoy the crafting system and only levelled because my guild wanted me to.This is a change for the better of the game.  Crafting will be easier to understand and more accessible to more people.  This is not a bad thing.  There are barely enough crafters as it is.As it stands, I won't even log my guy on anymore because I have no interest in making subs or doing 5/6 combines to get 1 item.  The amount of money I could be making does not offset the amount of boredom I face.<div></div>

[Lunah]

<div></div>For everyone one of the hardcore crafters that is against this there are at least 5 casual crafters like me who are anxiously awaiting this change. All taking out subs does is make crafting less tedious, that is all. The crafting world is not coming to an end, just being made a bit easier on those with things like carpal tunnel.

[ZeyGnome]

<div></div><p>Goodbye subcombines!</p><p> </p><p>Huzzah!</p><p> </p><p>Sorry, but as a new person to the game, I find the system now interesting but way too cumbersome.  I look forward to this change.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Mon]

Later subcombines, I hardly knew ya.  And im glad for that.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote:More problems are being caused from the changes then it is helping. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I would say that more <em>speculation </em>is being caused at the moment.  We truely have no way to predict the consequences.  The best speculation is just that - speculation.  All we can say with certainty is that we will no longer be making sub combines and that poisons and potions are getting a revamp.</p><p>The last time they sped up the Tradeskill experience it was not the death of crafting (although I personally find it less enjoyable as it is a little less challenging), and these changes won't kill it either.</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lunah wrote:<div></div>For everyone one of the hardcore crafters that is against this there are at least 5 casual crafters like me who are anxiously awaiting this change.<hr></blockquote>Please don't sterotype (hardcore = against) and (casual = for)... it really doesn't break down that way at all.

[LordDragone]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hey I have a great idea.....since they are making crafting easy enough for everyone to do why don't we do somehting similar for the adventurers? Why don't we take out the sub-minions? That would make adventuring just as easy as crafting is becoming! No more pesky mobs getting in your way of the named boss (single mob no more group mobs) Just think of how much fun that will be! :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I mean after all it is SOOOO boring having to kill everything just to get to the end named mob.....this adventuring thing is too hard they need to make it easier</p><p>Message Edited by LordDragone on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:09 AM</span></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div>Actually they did take out the subcombines in the adventurer class.  There is going to be no longer a level 10 quest or level 20 quest you start off right from the beginning as what you want to be.  Just think of fight/crusader/paladin as a sub combine/sub combine/final product.<blockquote><hr>LordDragone wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Hey I have a great idea.....since they are making crafting easy enough for everyone to do why don't we do somehting similar for the adventurers? Why don't we take out the sub-minions? That would make adventuring just as easy as crafting is becoming! No more pesky mobs getting in your way of the named boss (single mob no more group mobs) Just think of how much fun that will be! :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I mean after all it is SOOOO boring having to kill everything just to get to the end named mob.....this adventuring thing is too hard they need to make it easier</p><p>Message Edited by LordDragone on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:09 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><div></div><p>I canceled. I want to thank the people here, because they made me understand that Eq2 was not a game for me.</p><p> </p><p>You know what is the saddest thing? It's that i'm on the game before the beta. You go 1 day, and you say "it's too hard", SOE change. Maybe you should look at the game before buy it.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Please don't sterotype (hardcore = against) and (casual = for)... it really doesn't break down that way at all.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I'm a casual player.I think people don't understand the difference between 'fun without doing anithing" and 'fun to make a challenge' ...</p><p> </p><p>/bye</p><p>Message Edited by Mattsupp on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:22 AM</span></p>

[Amytheyst]

Cat used a real good word up above here- <i>speculation. </i>OP, please tell me exactly what PROBLEMS are manifest at this point since none of these changes are even close to live yet?In another thread:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=42791#M42791The poster hit it about as close as its really going to get, <i>methinks</i>. (Insert yaada-yaada amount of game experience over many years here) We are all going to have to see what happens, and the very best thing you can do is test and give feedback on the changes themselves... OP, once the process has gone as far as it has the chances of them reverting like you ask are about as likely as them taking away monthly subscriptions to play.I'm all for the changes, and you cannot label me as a casual crafter, nor hardcore- I do adventure as well but 8 out of the remainder of my toons are all adventuring harvesters/crafters.<div></div>

[Igu]

<div></div>Isn't the lack of Subcomponents, and the pristine exp bumps from them, going to make leveling trade skills MUCH harder?

[tomdykins]

<div></div><blockquote><div></div><div></div><p> </p><p></p><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>I canceled. I want to thank the people here, because they made me understand that Eq2 was not a game for me.</p><p> </p><p>You know what is the saddest thing? It's that i'm on the game before the beta. You go 1 day, and you say "it's too hard", SOE change. Maybe you should look at the game before buy it.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Please don't sterotype (hardcore = against) and (casual = for)... it really doesn't break down that way at all.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I'm a casual player.I think people don't understand the difference between 'fun without doing anithing" and 'fun to make a challenge' ...</p><p> </p><p>/bye</p><p>Message Edited by Mattsupp on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>If you're gonna react like this before the update is even out, then you're probably right - EQ2 isn't the game for you.</p><p> </p><p> </p></blockquote>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><div>you know, i can wait. For what ?</div><div> </div><div>When they talked about removing shards from the game, most of people were against the change. They put it.</div><div>I react like that because i'm really tired ; it's always the same thing ($)</div><p>Message Edited by Mattsupp on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Igu wrote:<div></div>Isn't the lack of Subcomponents, and the pristine exp bumps from them, going to make leveling trade skills MUCH harder?<hr></blockquote><p>Beghn, the TS Dev, thinks it will ballance out because Final have inheirantly more XP.  However, he promised to test it hard.</p><p> </p><p>For those coming in late, this link least to filtered down Beghn Trackers where you can see all Dev comments on the changes without the 40 pages of player commentary.  <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-18-06 5:31 PM]</font></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif"></p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><div> most of people were against the change.<hr></div></blockquote>Actually, what you see is a lot of people who post on the forums were against the change.  forum posters are not *all* players.  Lots of players don't read the forums at all.

[GregJZ]

Ok,  subcomponents help people lvl.  Especially when first getting to a new Tier. I for instance am an alchemist, I make 100 reagents>100 Dyes>100 inks per tier when I first get to lvl 10,20,30,40 etc...  And yes it is very boring and grueling but it is worth it in the end because first I gain almost 3 lvls easily then all I have to make is the spells to lvl from there.<div></div>

[ZeyGnome]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote:Ok,  subcomponents help people lvl.  Especially when first getting to a new Tier. I for instance am an alchemist, I make 100 reagents>100 Dyes>100 inks per tier when I first get to lvl 10,20,30,40 etc...  And yes it is very boring and grueling but it is worth it in the end because first I gain almost 3 lvls easily then all I have to make is the spells to lvl from there.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Games are supposed to be fun, anything that is boring and grueling (even if it rewarding) should not be in a game.  That's what I go to work for (boring and grueling).</p><p>Now, is the change too much?  I can't say.  It would be nice if the main component was a subcombine (a single subcombine of raw materials, not the current subcombine, subcombine, subcombine to make a subcombine for the final) and the rest of the item was raw, but all raws will be good too, though I wonder what will determine the ability to make a Pristine item if the main component is a raw material?</p><p> </p><blockquote> </blockquote>

[Calthine]

<div></div>Well, since all raws are Pristine by nature, and your starting durablity is determined by the quality of the primary ingredient, looks like every combine will start with Pristine potential.

[ZadooEQ]

I don't see anything in sub-combines that makes the game "harder" or more "challenging." Tedious, yes. Boring, yes. Good riddance to the sub-combines. I think they're working on other, more interesting ways to make tradeskilling challenging. Bravo to the devs for thinking more creatively!<div></div>

[Galn]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>One thing that I'd like to see is a happy medium... Making components and then combining them into a final item is one of my favorite parts of the game, doing 4 combines to make ink was not one of my favorites though.</div><div> </div><div>Right now to make a sage skill you need to refine your WORTs, refine your wood, make the quill, make the paper, then you do a few combines to make the ink. THEN you combine them all into the skill scroll. This is easily close to 10 combines at the crafting station. Even a sword is refine the WORTs, refine 2 metal, refine a leather, make the blade crossguard and hilt, then combine them into a sword.</div><div> </div><div>A nice compromise would be- Make the ink, make the quill, make the paper - > combine into skill scroll.. or make the blade, make the crossguard, make the hilt --> combine into sword. 4 combines per item, not 10 or more. Detail is left in the system for those who want it, but crafting would still be a lot faster for those who dont want to spend an hour making one skill scroll.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff9900">To summarize it, remove WORT's and refining raws, but allow us to make the components directly by plugging in the required raws directly, then combining the components into the final item.</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900"></font> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edit - Sample recipe... Iron weapon</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edge - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalCrossguard - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalHilt - Avg Pelt, 2 Tuber plus 2 FilamentSword - Edge, Crossguard, Hilt plus 1 coal</font></span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:36 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Galn wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>One thing that I'd like to see is a happy medium... Making components and then combining them into a final item is one of my favorite parts of the game, doing 4 combines to make ink was not one of my favorites though.</div><div> </div><div>Right now to make a sage skill you need to refine your WORTs, refine your wood, make the quill, make the paper, then you do a few combines to make the ink. THEN you combine them all into the skill scroll. This is easily close to 10 combines at the crafting station. Even a sword is refine the WORTs, refine 2 metal, refine a leather, make the blade crossguard and hilt, then combine them into a sword.</div><div> </div><div>A nice compromise would be- Make the ink, make the quill, make the paper - > combine into skill scroll.. or make the blade, make the crossguard, make the hilt --> combine into sword. 4 combines per item, not 10 or more. Detail is left in the system for those who want it, but crafting would still be a lot faster for those who dont want to spend an hour making one skill scroll.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff9900">To summarize it, remove WORT's and refining raws, but allow us to make the components directly by plugging in the required raws directly, then combining the components into the final item.</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900"></font> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edit - Sample recipe... Iron weapon</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edge - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalCrossguard - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalHilt - Avg Pelt, 2 Tuber plus 2 FilamentSword - Edge, Crossguard, Hilt plus 1 coal</font></span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I like this system and when I first heard about the subcombines going away I thought it was going to be something like this. I never considered the first component needed for a final as a subcombine since it determined the potential quality of hte final. WORTs is indeed the most time consuming and tedious part of the live TS system. I do think this would be a decent medium. It leaves in some of the complexity without making things too tedious.

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Galn wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>One thing that I'd like to see is a happy medium... Making components and then combining them into a final item is one of my favorite parts of the game, doing 4 combines to make ink was not one of my favorites though.</div><div> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edit - Sample recipe... Iron weapon</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edge - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalCrossguard - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalHilt - Avg Pelt, 2 Tuber plus 2 FilamentSword - Edge, Crossguard, Hilt plus 1 coal</font></span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote> You are not the only person saying this.  I have said something similar and so have many others, all along the same lines.  Maybe one of the devs will notice this as well...

[Galn]

<div>I sure hope they take notice, its a very logical way to handle the situation. I know others were saying the same thing, I just wanted to put in my 2c so the devs knew I was for it too.</div>

[retro_guy]

<div></div>   <span><blockquote><hr>Igu wrote:<div></div>Isn't the lack of Subcomponents, and the pristine exp bumps from them, going to make leveling trade skills MUCH harder?<hr></blockquote>Well it's certainly going to make levelling a n alchemist MUCH harder.I can count the number of potions I've bought from an alchemist on one hand, but then again I have had spells made and a few extracts.I have however had hundreds of stacks of washes, resins and tempers made, so what are out alchemists going to make now that there will be no subcombines in the game, since that is the majority of what their class made?? I personally financed a guildie through 3-4 levels with recent orders, now he won't be getting any more orders as my carpenter will no longer need any subs.Alchies will be left with spells, and some potions (most of which are to worthless to use) and that's it, gee that's an exciting class to play and going to make them money.These changes are way too short-sighted, it's like looking at Sinking Sands and saying, ok let's make every mob a crypt mummy, and remove all the diversity that makes the zone interesting.Can't you find a compromise somewhere in between which doesn't remove the richness that exists in crafting?What if SOE dicided that carpenters are no longer going to make anything but sconces and  candeliers, and that's it. Now carpenters, you can't make anything else, forget the tables, chairs etc as they are no longer needed in the game.I used to be proud of EQ2's crafting system (even with all it's bugs), after these changes it's nothing special at all.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 PM</span></p>

[btennison]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by btennison on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:15 PM</span></p>

[btennison]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Galn wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>One thing that I'd like to see is a happy medium... Making components and then combining them into a final item is one of my favorite parts of the game, doing 4 combines to make ink was not one of my favorites though.</div><div> </div><div>Right now to make a sage skill you need to refine your WORTs, refine your wood, make the quill, make the paper, then you do a few combines to make the ink. THEN you combine them all into the skill scroll. This is easily close to 10 combines at the crafting station. Even a sword is refine the WORTs, refine 2 metal, refine a leather, make the blade crossguard and hilt, then combine them into a sword.</div><div> </div><div>A nice compromise would be- Make the ink, make the quill, make the paper - > combine into skill scroll.. or make the blade, make the crossguard, make the hilt --> combine into sword. 4 combines per item, not 10 or more. Detail is left in the system for those who want it, but crafting would still be a lot faster for those who dont want to spend an hour making one skill scroll.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff9900">To summarize it, remove WORT's and refining raws, but allow us to make the components directly by plugging in the required raws directly, then combining the components into the final item.</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900"></font> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edit - Sample recipe... Iron weapon</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff3300">Edge - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalCrossguard - Iron, 2 Turq./Electrum plus 2 coalHilt - Avg Pelt, 2 Tuber plus 2 FilamentSword - Edge, Crossguard, Hilt plus 1 coal</font></span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>OK, finally a compromise I can live with. This makes sense to me, a little something for everyone.

[Catharz]

<div><span>At first, I thought yay (I hate sub-combines).  </span><span>At the moment trade-skills are laborious and tedious and they do need to do something about that.  I have my doubts whether this is the right solution (or even the right sort of direction).</span><span></span><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">Igu wrote:Isn't the lack of Subcomponents, and the pristine exp bumps from them, going to make leveling trade skills MUCH harder?<hr></blockquote><span>Yes, it will.  It will make it easler and quicker to craft (because of no sub-combines), but it will be significantly harder to level.  For each pristine finished product, there are at least 3 sub-combines that you get xp from (and often 4-5 sub-combines).  For something like Mental Core Breaches, there are 6 combines in total (including 4 'finished' combines) with none of those combines providing multiple products (like WORTS).  That's a LOT of xp to miss out on.Even with multiple results from WORTS, m</span><span>y jeweler </span><span>went from level 30 to level 37 by the time he has enough inks, spikes and ornaments to make 120 T4 spells.  Then while working on pristine app IV's he got up to level 42 before he got close to making spells his level (he still hasn't, but he has run out of vitality<span>:smileywink:</span>).  While xp was possibly a little too easy at that level, it was not easy enough to take all the sub-combines out.The other consideration with this is the flooding of the market of finished products and the increased demand on harvests.  Crafters will soon be able to make finshed products at ~4 times the rate (thinking averages here).  That means each crafted item will enter the market at 4x the rate and harvests will be used at 4x the rate.  Eventually, the market will even out (it always does), but this will have short term dramatic effects.For my 60 provisioner this will rock in some ways.  He's already level 60, and only tends to craft food for himself and occasionally sells some and gives some to guild mates.  Food and drink always took way too long to make considering the length of usefulness of something that is truly consumable (unlike armour and weapons where the adventures can eventually sell them).  I recently timed myself and it took over 3 hours to make 20 refreshing mental core breaches (that's 20 drinks, not 20 stacks of drinks).   In the same time, I will be able to make 5-6 times that quantity.  That will mean he has the time to make food and drinks for himself and maybe even enough to make some money on while still having time for adventuring.  While more food and drink entering the market is good (prices will eventually drop a little), it also means the demand on provisioner harvests will be soo much higher.  And as each drink uses 4-6g worth of harvests (current broker prices), I doubt I'll be able to afford them when this first goes live.I think what I suspect sony are trying to acheive will only occur if the rate of harvest supply goes up (especially for provisioners) and the amount of xp for each "combine" goes up.  Otherwise, the only people who will really win out of this are the bot harvesters and tradeskillers.Btw, all the above is really just guessing what sort of impact it would have (based on past experience with similar changes).  Luckily, SOE don't seem too scared to throw stuff out or totally re-work it when something doesn't pan out.  They also aren't scared to put stuff on test server and then totally wipe the idea (that's what the test server is for).  This is also a constantly changing game, so none of this is set in stone (ever).</span></div>

[Neave]

Crafting will still take time and commitment, which is appropriate, but this change will help take a lot of the tedium out of crafting.Adventuring is a wonderful, in depth, complex and fascinating process. The crafting system has no where near this level of immersion, and thus ought not take the same amount of time to make achievements in.I really enjoy crafting, and making things for my own characters, but I don't feel like I need to go through with the so called 'reality' of making several hundred sub-components to make items.There is technique to crafting, but it is only one technique you can universally apply to any crafter type and any crafting table.In the end all you are doing is pressing 1 of 4 reactive buttons, the interest of which is limited.I don't think making changes to crafting is related to making it dumbed down or 'easy', it's all about making a fun game.<div></div>

[Dalick]

<div></div><p>I see good and bad in this change. It will mostly be determained on how fast you can actualy level off one combine. My fear is not that it becomes easy to level. More that because its easier to chug out items how long before the market takes a dive. This will on the good side fill in the major gap in the low level area where crafted is hard to find. This is good for however long it takes 10 new crafters to get through those levels and either flood as they go OR level evenly and move on to the next tier.</p><p>If the can balance the EXP so that an even amount of items as compared to now ( bit more maybe ) are added to the market and players will level still quick enough that its not flooded. This is my only prob. I dont care how many combines I do, one way or the other it comes down to the market, and how much flooding will happen. Each person who crafts deserves a chance to make a profit on thier items and if the market has 3-4 pages of the same item ( Hello T6!! ) then the undercutters take over in a chance to get rid of thier items quick with at least a small profit and srew everyone else above them as more see them selling and doing the same thing.</p><p> </p><p>Just a thought.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Terron]

I like the idea of reducing the number of subcombines, but not with getting rid of them entirely.I think a system with just one level of subcombine before the finalRather than having just one recipe to make a scroll, I would like something likeMake inkMake paperWrite scroll.or for a weapon something likeMake metal bar(s)Make stretches of leatherMake weapon.For provisioning, given the rate foods are consumed, then going straight to the final for many/most things would be good.<div></div>

[Faymar]

If you want to make a profit, then make t2-4 goods or even t5.The top tier will always be overloaded as the capped crafters dust off their tools and rush for the next level along side the steady crafters making their way up. Meanwhile, try to buy T3 armour and you are staring at a blank page on most servers.This is partially because levelling up is so quick, tailors aren't making 15 pairs of arms to get to the next level of item, they are making a few for their friends and then moving on to the next piece. If the new system means people are making and selling more items per level then I can only see that as improving the current situation.If the price dips too low then people will sell them to an NPC, it's not an ever downward spiral. You may decide that making spare pieces for profit isn't worth it (although I dare say I bet you will still be able to find missing items/tiers and plug the gaps) but that just helps ensure that crafters levelling up have the chance to sell their goods.That's not to say I'm 100% behind the changes. Somewhere, somehow, crafting lost it's promise of depth. It looked to be on par with adventuring, in terms of time and skill and patience. Although I do think taking the monotony out is a good thing, I'm not thrilled with a trend of trivialising the entire process. Bulk refines, as discussed pre-PoF, seemed to be a much better means of taking some of the heart-ache out without turning it into a single-click EQ1 style process.But really, I'd love to see the people that originally planned the EQ2 tradeskills look back on what they had hoped to achieve, then, and using the knowledge they have now strive for that goal once again. At the moment it feels less as though tradeskills are being fixed and more as though they are being dismantled.-Fay<div></div>

[Ezariel]

<div>This can only be a good thing.  Right now on my server you can't find any gear at all on any broker before level 40, and even level 40 is hard to find.  Crafters won't even take jobs for items that are under tier 6 if you ask them.  And I don't blame them.  It takes a very long time to make a set of armor, or even a single weapon.  Why would you make a tier 2 for some newbie who found a rare and wants to do something with it, when you can make a tier6 weapon and make 10 times the profit in the same amount of time.</div><div> </div><div>I never could find armor on the market when I was leveling up my brigand.  I have an armorer now and would like to put up armor for all the tiers at a reasonable price so that others can find it easier.  But I won't its too much of a time commitment.  After these changes I might actually consider it.</div>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ezariel wrote:<div>This can only be a good thing.  Right now on my server you can't find any gear at all on any broker before level 40, and even level 40 is hard to find.  Crafters won't even take jobs for items that are under tier 6 if you ask them.  And I don't blame them.  It takes a very long time to make a set of armor, or even a single weapon.  Why would you make a tier 2 for some newbie who found a rare and wants to do something with it, when you can make a tier6 weapon and make 10 times the profit in the same amount of time.</div><div> </div><div>I never could find armor on the market when I was leveling up my brigand.  I have an armorer now and would like to put up armor for all the tiers at a reasonable price so that others can find it easier.  But I won't its too much of a time commitment.  After these changes I might actually consider it.</div><hr></blockquote> As I said and others have said many times already, they can make GREY items have no sub-combines, that will solve this very problem without ruining the whole tradeskill system.

[Calthine]

<div>I have asked this before - how would you impliment that?  Two sets of books? </div>

[Loki_d20]

<span><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote:People enjoyed the crafting system the way it was.<hr></blockquote>I'd say that this is far from true for the majority of crafters.  It was done mostly out of necessity rather than enjoyment.</span><span><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote: For those that didnt, then oh well they didnt have to craft. <hr></blockquote></span>Typically not the best business solution when you have less and less people crafting and more people just raid farming for better items.<div></div>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div>I have asked this before - how would you impliment that?  Two sets of books? </div><hr></blockquote> Just add a few books with all the recipes that don't use sub-combines at the level when those would turn grey.  It wouldn't be too tough, and it would be optional.  That would be what, 4 books, 5?

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote:People enjoyed the crafting system the way it was.  For those that didnt, then oh well they didnt have to craft. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Hmm, what about, thank you for the new crafting system.  People enjoy it, and for those that don't, they don't have to craft.</p><p>Presenting your viewpoint by trying to discount the other view is not the best means of persuasion.</p>

[GregJZ]

Like they were going to change it because of little ole me. lol I doubt it.I just didnt like the idea.  I tried it on test. and the whole having to seperate leaded loam into 2 stacks is lame but that is the only thing I find wrong with it.And that it will be harder for alchemists, and sages to lvl because creating an abundance of sub combines knocked out a few lvls in each tier. <div></div>

[Rattfa]

<span><blockquote><hr>GregJZ52 wrote:Like they were going to change it because of little ole me. lol I doubt it.I just didnt like the idea.  I tried it on test. and the whole having to seperate leaded loam into 2 stacks is lame but that is the only thing I find wrong with it. - <font color="#ffff00">I dont think that was intentional</font><span>:smileywink:</span>And that it will be harder for alchemists, and sages to lvl because creating an abundance of sub combines knocked out a few lvls in each tier. - <font color="#ffff00">Devs have stated that the exp gain will be adjusted so leveling is the same/similar speed</font><span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><div>you know, i can wait. For what ?</div><div> </div><div>When they talked about removing shards from the game, most of people were against the change. They put it.</div><div>I react like that because i'm really tired ; it's always the same thing ($)</div><p>Message Edited by Mattsupp on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You're surprised? That's all any company and 99.9% of the world population cares about. Money is all that matters to any company including charities and 99.9% of people on this planet.

[MaldekTM]

<div></div>I would just like to agree with the OP and say that the crafting system should be left alone.

[Coastwatcher]

<div></div>I'm keeping an open mind and see what we get when it goes live. It's the least I can do so as not to give myself ulcers or stress worrying about something that's just speculation right now.

[Rhianni]

<div>How about the changes go in and for those that dont enjoy the new system dont have to craft <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[selch]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>themixmonkey wrote:<span><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>GregJZ52 wrote:Like they were going to change it because of little ole me. lol I doubt it.I just didnt like the idea.  I tried it on test. and the whole having to seperate leaded loam into 2 stacks is lame but that is the only thing I find wrong with it. - <font color="#ffff00">I dont think that was intentional</font><span>:smileywink:</span>And that it will be harder for alchemists, and sages to lvl because creating an abundance of sub combines knocked out a few lvls in each tier. - <font color="#ffff00">Devs have stated that the exp gain will be adjusted so leveling is the same/similar speed</font><span>:smileyhappy:</span></p><p><span><font color="#ff3300">True, sages and alchemists will level just like other crafters rather than jetspeed, however they will still have tons of schematics every level compared to others. (for example at L47, as a tailor, I get 2 schems from normal, 2 schems from advanced and 4 just does not make 10% of level)</font></span></p><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><span><blockquote><p><span><font color="#ff3300">True, sages and alchemists will level just like other crafters rather than jetspeed, however they will still have tons of schematics every level compared to others. (for example at L47, as a tailor, I get 2 schems from normal, 2 schems from advanced and 4 just does not make 10% of level)</font></span></p><div></div><p></span></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote> I think you're missing the fact that ALL tradeskills will be just final combines.  It's only spells and abilites right now, but that's because they haven't finished the rest yet...

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><span><blockquote><p><span><font color="#ff3300">True, sages and alchemists will level just like other crafters rather than jetspeed, however they will still have tons of schematics every level compared to others. (for example at L47, as a tailor, I get 2 schems from normal, 2 schems from advanced and 4 just does not make 10% of level)</font></span></p><div></div><p></span></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote> I think you're missing the fact that ALL tradeskills will be just final combines.  It's only spells and abilites right now, but that's because they haven't finished the rest yet...<hr></blockquote><p>I know, my XP will get reduced too, but think about it, which would get more XP from pristines final combine (which will be one), someone with 10 different receipes per level, or someone will 2 receipe per level.</p><p>I mean Alchemists whine for nothing of XP without comparing to other crafters how fast they get and will get xp even at future state.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Rattfa]

How will your XP go down???? <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>themixmonkey wrote:How will your XP go down???? <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>meaning "not getting xp we used to get from crafting subs" which is also said it will be adjusted accordingly.</div><div> </div>

[Rattfa]

then your XP wont go down because 'subcombines + final' on the old system will = final in the new systemi dont see where you loss comes from<div></div>

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>themixmonkey wrote:then your XP wont go down because 'subcombines + final' on the old system will = final in the new systemi dont see where you loss comes from<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>nevermind, it was a belief of "Pashta" anyway.</p><p>Alchemists, please don't get me wrong, I don't care how fast you get xp from subs and such or how many pristines you craft, I just want to point out, whining about XP is REALLY absurd once you look at other crafting classes, you get 15+ receipes per level to make pristines.</p><p> </p>

[Pashta]

<div></div>Pardon, but you are mistaken, 'selch'.  I have no belief about xp at all, was just saying that all classes will have no sub-combines.  It was another poster that was talking about xp.

[selch]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div>Pardon, but you are mistaken, 'selch'.  I have no belief about xp at all, was just saying that all classes will have no sub-combines.  It was another poster that was talking about xp.<hr></blockquote><p>Don't take it personally <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[domestic godde]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div> As I said and others have said many times already, they can make GREY items have no sub-combines, that will solve this very problem without ruining the whole tradeskill system.<hr></div><div> </div><div>The way I can see this working is make the lvl of the trade societites have some worth again. Or even better, have the workshop tasks provide status or your lvl in the society enable you to buy NO TRADE subs from the fuel seller. Or once you are out of a tier be able to buy NO TRADE subs of the previous tier. NO TRADE so that those with the status or lvl to buy said subs can not buy them and just sell on broker, which happened previously when you could buy refines from fuel sellers from higher crafting societites.</div><div> </div><div>I don't see removing of subs a way to make crafting more fun and less tedious. Takes out any sense of realism from crafting that it has now. I'm in the camp that would prefer maybe taking out refines and get right to making the sub. Going straight to finals now is boring to me and also happening at a time when vaults are also going to increase with size of housing. Flooded market anyone? Especially since all you will crank out to lvl is finals...</div><div> </div><div>Crafting could have been made simpler many moons ago by just redefining recipes. When you go to make a tin sub, it calls for refined tin, which is a tin bar. Recipe components could have been listed as calling for that tin bar instead of not making sense and looking over and over for refined tin. (tin just being an example) That's what frustrated many and those that stick with it think they need a spreadsheet to craft. You learn those things over time, but the many that didn't just got frustrated and quit.</div><div> </div><div>Make the proposed changes work for provisioners and for inks. Or batch inks and prov items by how many raws you have. Taking subs completely out is a total degradation of the crafting system, to me anyway...</div></blockquote></blockquote>

[G3M]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><div>you know, i can wait. For what ?</div><div> </div><div>When they talked about removing shards from the game, most of people were against the change. They put it.</div><div>I react like that because i'm really tired ; it's always the same thing ($) <font color="#ff0000">What did you expect? Of course it's about $. I'd say that MMOGs aren't for you if you're tired for that reason. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div><p>Message Edited by Mattsupp on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>As for the crafting changes, no one really knows what sort of effect the changes will have, until they go live. Personally, I like the sound of these changes and hope it all works out for the best. I'm keeping an open mind here.</span></div><p>Message Edited by G3MM4 on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:25 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>WHile you're levelling off of subs the thing is those subs are worth less xp per craft than a final. You'll get more xp/time with no subs to craft just less xp/final+subs to make it.</p><p>How much xp is a WORT worth really when you can easily make 4 per craft session that's about the same length as 1 final that uses just 1-3 of those WORTs. Levelling off the subs isn't where you level fastest, just where you get the bulk of your xp off the current system because of the number of subs you HAVE to make to be able to make the higher-xp finals.</p><p>I just went through on test and was watching. I got about 1/4th the xp for making 4 chloro oils (one craft) as I did for making a single t1 spell under the new system. Each was 1 craft session and took the same length of time. That means I got 4x as much xp with the new system than the old system. Those 4 oils also got spread across 4 finals so that's 1/16th of the total xp of the final lost but also 1/4th of the final crafting time removed, meaning more xp/time.</p>

[Vixey]

<div></div><p>No one can say if the changes will be good or bad or if the market will get flooded. I am a hardcore crafter and am looking forward to the change I happen to have a 60 alchy and will be grateful to be able to spend time on potions which will soon stack and are getting revamped to be more useful and spells instead of worts seeing as i have 5 crafters including my alchy of my own that need them and my husbands 4 crafters. I will enjoy putting out more food with my provisioner. I hate seeing so many newbies and even guildies alts looking for items to use because most crafters won't make them. <font color="#ffff00">Someone brings me and my husband the subcombines we will gladly make the item.</font> With the new changes i will be able to supply more items in a shorter time and not just one tier. I will gladly cover all tiers. If xp goes up or down who cares, but nothing has been set in stone yet. People who enjoy crafting will continue to craft they did and I did after the dependancy went away. I know from experience being a test server EQ1 player for a few years what you see on test is not always the finished product you get on live.</p><p>Steamfont Server</p><p>Kirakesh 60 Provisioner</p><p>Kitari 60 Alchemist</p><p>Fironavie 60 Jeweler</p><p>Talania 60 Carpenter</p><p>Kylania 58 Woodworker</p>