crafting changes question...

[Xti]

<div></div>heyas, i dont play on test, but i keep a close eye on the changes that happen on testto see what things are coming to the live serversbut one thing has really bugged me about the crafting changes. im not a crafter. but crafting really impacts me as an adventureri saw that one of the crafting devs had posted a recipe for making armor and one for imbueing iti was somewhat confused by this, and im wondering if anyone here on test could help explain itthis recipe had said that now requires 5 or 6 of the harvested ore to make this one peice of armorand yet another 5 or 6 to imbue it for some reasondo you know how much it would cost to have a rare peice of armor made after this? if it required 5 or 6 rae ores just for one peice without imbueing?that has to be the most stupid and brain dead thing you guys have done. i really hope this isnt true<div></div><p>Message Edited by Xtife on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:24 AM</span></p>

[Kayteekai]

<div>The multiple resources needed in the new recipes are common harvested items. You would only need one rare component still for a single piece. There aren't any new armor recipes actually in yet but that is how the adept3 spell recipes are setup.</div>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

If we say that nomal items need 6 pieces of ore, a rare item would require 1 rare and 5 pieces of normal ore. All it's doing is breaking it down into the harvested components.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xtife wrote:<div></div>do you know how much it would cost to have a rare peice of armor made after this? if it required 5 or 6 rae ores just for one peice without imbueing?that has to be the most stupid and brain dead thing you guys have done. i really hope this isnt true<div></div><p>Message Edited by Xtife on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I ran some T1 recipes on Test and Live.  The sellback price (which is as good an estimate of 'cost' as any) is slightly less on Test (seems to be because no liquids are used).  so far they seem to have done a decent job of keeping the number and type of raws for a final the same as it is now...  if you sat down and coutned every little thing that goes into a final now.</p><p>We don't know the names of the rares and Beghn's been giving us T7 recipes as examples.  So far those seem to be commons.  So for the Imbued chest piece sample he gave the number of raws is about right.  A rare might take 1 Rare Whatever, 4 common hard metals, etc which would replace 1 rare raw and the chain links, struts, plates and other builds Armorers deal with now.</p><p>No doubt prices will shift a bit, change does that, but the basic out-of-pocket materials costs for fuel and such should be pretty darn close.</p><p> </p>

[your savior]

From what I've read so far; these changes only affect levels 1-20.  Are these changes going to affect all levels of crafting ultimatly?<div></div>

[idaieni]

<div></div><p>ultimately i beleive so.. i think with the release of KoS we will see the changes implemented to all levels of tradeskilling.</p><p> </p><p>Goldie, 57 alchemist , Exile</p><p>Kikomai, 43 Woodworker, Exalted</p><p>Falcor, 40 Provisioner, Exalted</p><p>Befallen Server</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>Yes, these cahnges are going through the whole TS system, starting with T1/2 Spells and the new T7 stuff.  Seems that they'll roll out the rest of the changes to Beta incrementally.</p><p>For complete TS Dev statements on these changes, see here:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-18-06 5:31 PM]</font></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif"></p>

[your savior]

These are very big changes; I can only hope they know what they are doing.<div></div>

[kenm]

<div></div><div></div>Of course they know what they're doing, they work for the same company that brought you the masterpieces known as EverQuest Online Adventures and Star Wars Galaxies!<p>Message Edited by kenman on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:10 PM</span></p>

[ValValline]

<blockquote><hr>BLACKGUARD wrote:I'm generally not terribly blunt, but please read all of Beghn's posts before jumping to conclusions and freaking out. We're attempting to remove the tedium from crafting, making it more desirable, improving the market for crafted items, and have no intentions of making it simple point-click-rich like you're indicating. Removing subcombines doesn't imply that's all that is going on; we're also adjusting the recipes to account for the removal of subcombines so it isn't trivial to craft.Subcombines are not the fun part of crafting; making cool stuff is. This is just going to let crafters create the cool stuff that they want without requiring you to have a spreadsheet in order to figure out how to get to that point (I am talking from experience as a Carpenter with an overly-complicated spreadsheet here). Let's grab one example, which may not be 100% accurate because I tried to translate my spreadsheet into a readable web format:Maple Strong Box* Planed Mapleo Refined Maple+ Raw Maple+ Stroma Resin# Raw Tuber or Maple# Liquid# Paraffin Wax Candle+ Abrasive Sandpapero Stroma Resin+ Raw Tuber or Maple+ Liquid+ Paraffin Wax Candleo Abrasive Sandpaper* Iron Studo Refined Iron+ Raw Iron+ Eolith Temper# Raw Iron, Electrum, or Turquoise# Liquid# Paraffin Wax Candle+ Brown Coalo Eolith Temper+ Raw Iron, Electrum, or Turquoise+ Liquid+ Paraffin Wax Candleo Brown Coal* Iron Sheeto Refined Iron+ Raw Iron+ Eolith Temper# Raw Iron, Electrum, or Turquoise# Liquid# Paraffin Wax Candle+ Brown Coalo Eolith Temper+ Raw Iron, Electrum, or Turquoise+ Liquid+ Paraffin Wax Candleo Brown Coal* Fuel: Abrasive SandpaperWhich part of that was fun for me? The part in which I got to make a Maple Strong Box. How long did that part take? 30 seconds to a minute to get myself a pristine one. How long did the rest take? 5+ minutes. There's something wrong there, and the removal of subcombines is designed to remedy that.<hr></blockquote>Looks like they know exactly what they are doing to me, and I look forward to the changes.

[your savior]

I have a level 40 provisioner, definitely one of, if not the, simplest crafting classes and I also have a sage.  After these changes I'll actually level the sage up too.  Making resins inks and quills were not something I signed up for when I chose sage.  I was putting off working on it due to the tiresome routine.  Each ink or dye is always long greened out before you reach the next tier so the reward/time balance is out.  I would have done it eventually but other aspects of the game are much more appealing.However, speaking as a provisioner; these changes aren't really suited to my class.  Turning candied apples into an apple pie was fun.  I used to craft my apples or feyberries and wait until later on that tier and use them to make longer lasting foods.  Effectively this has boosted my harvesting time in an extreme way.  One apple for the candied apple, a separate one for the pie; double the harvest time.  I hope this issue is not overlooked; harvesting isn't exactly fun and it's very time consuming. The philosophy is flawed in that is has a very general approach to crafting.  Sub-combines are boring; making cool stuff is fun.  There is nothing wrong with this line of thinking; in fact it should be a refreshing change to the crafting process.  However, all of what you make as a provisioner is useful right away.  Where I'd like to think that provisioner will be the exception that proves the rule; it aint happening. This company did bring out SWG, but they have yet to let me down in EQ2.  Looking at LU 19 so far they won't.<div></div>

[Darkcreat]

<div></div>You misunderstand how it is going to work. Subcombines will be gone completely. So if you want to make an apple pie you just make an apple pie... no candied apple necessary. You will however still be able to make candied apples as they are a finished product that can be eaten. It will however simply be a candied apple that you make, no refining honey, or any of that crap.

[your savior]

Yeah, I understand that.  I like that.But you use your candied apple in the apple pie later on.  With this method, you may have to have two different apples.  One makes candied apple and one makes apple pie.  With only making finished products provisioner will be hit, hard.  Products that a provisioner make are both finished products and subcombines.<div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>your savior wrote:Yeah, I understand that.  I like that.But you use your candied apple in the apple pie later on.  With this method, you may have to have two different apples.  One makes candied apple and one makes apple pie.  With only making finished products provisioner will be hit, hard.  Products that a provisioner make are both finished products and subcombines.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well since your candied apple is a finished product why not sell it when your done, you could at least recoup the creation cost and probably make some profit too. You'll only need to use up enough apples to make candied apples until you can make the apple pie. Then you'll just use the apple you would have used to make the candied apple into an apple pie instead. WHile overall you may end up needing more apples you won't need more per recipe, you'll just have more finished items that you can sell off.

[Darkcreat]

<div></div><p>What I am saying is that you will not have to make a candied apple at all in order to make an apple pie. Your apple pie recipe will look something like:</p><p>2 honey, 1apple, 2 liquid, 5 kindling = apple pie</p><p>That won't be the exact recipe, but you should get the idea. (I haven't made an apple pie in a LONG time so I don't remember what ingredients go into it.)</p><p>No more candied apple unless you specifically want to make one. And you will no longer be able to make anything else with a candied apple, it will be a finished product. Example recipe for candied apple:</p><p>1 apple, 1 honey, 1 liquid, 2 kindling=candied apple</p><p>I hope this helps explain it better.</p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is that you will not have to make a candied apple at all in order to make an apple pie. Your apple pie recipe will look something like:</p><p>2 honey, 1apple, 2 liquid, 5 kindling = apple pie</p><p>That won't be the exact recipe, but you should get the idea. (I haven't made an apple pie in a LONG time so I don't remember what ingredients go into it.)</p><p>No more candied apple unless you specifically want to make one. And you will no longer be able to make anything else with a candied apple, it will be a finished product. Example recipe for candied apple:</p><p>1 apple, 1 honey, 1 liquid, 2 kindling=candied apple</p><p>I hope this helps explain it better.</p><hr></blockquote><p>What he was trying to say I believe is that as a provisioner he used to make candied apples (Which can be eaten by themselves, they are a finish item) and then save them to make the pies (Pies are also a finish item, but candied apples were used in making apple pies). With this method, he could level up the beginning of the teir with the candied apples, save them, and when he finally got the recipie for the pies, could immediately start making pies without having to harvest more apples to do so.</p><p>Now, with the new method of crafting, candied apples will be a seperate item unto themselves, and no longer used in apple pies as a sub component. So, at the low end of the teir he will have to still make candied apples to level, and once he finally gets to the level to make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples to make them, as candied apples will no longer be used in the pies, he will need a regular harvested apples.</p><p>So basicly, as the system is now, 100 apples might let him level to the point of being able to make pies lets say, and since he made candied apples to get to that point, he already has the sub component to make the pies. New system he will have to make those same 100 candied apples, but then when he can FINALLY make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples, because the ones he used in the candied apples are of no use to him for crafting. Basicly it doubles the number of apples he has to harvest or buy from broker to level.</p><p>I hope that makes sense.</p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cynto wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is that you will not have to make a candied apple at all in order to make an apple pie. Your apple pie recipe will look something like:</p><p>2 honey, 1apple, 2 liquid, 5 kindling = apple pie</p><p>That won't be the exact recipe, but you should get the idea. (I haven't made an apple pie in a LONG time so I don't remember what ingredients go into it.)</p><p>No more candied apple unless you specifically want to make one. And you will no longer be able to make anything else with a candied apple, it will be a finished product. Example recipe for candied apple:</p><p>1 apple, 1 honey, 1 liquid, 2 kindling=candied apple</p><p>I hope this helps explain it better.</p><hr></blockquote><p>What he was trying to say I believe is that as a provisioner he used to make candied apples (Which can be eaten by themselves, they are a finish item) and then save them to make the pies (Pies are also a finish item, but candied apples were used in making apple pies). With this method, he could level up the beginning of the teir with the candied apples, save them, and when he finally got the recipie for the pies, could immediately start making pies without having to harvest more apples to do so.</p><p>Now, with the new method of crafting, candied apples will be a seperate item unto themselves, and no longer used in apple pies as a sub component. So, at the low end of the teir he will have to still make candied apples to level, and once he finally gets to the level to make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples to make them, as candied apples will no longer be used in the pies, he will need a regular harvested apples.</p><p>So basicly, as the system is now, 100 apples might let him level to the point of being able to make pies lets say, and since he made candied apples to get to that point, he already has the sub component to make the pies. New system he will have to make those same 100 candied apples, but then when he can FINALLY make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples, because the ones he used in the candied apples are of no use to him for crafting. Basicly it doubles the number of apples he has to harvest or buy from broker to level.</p><p>I hope that makes sense.</p><hr></blockquote>It makes sense to me but that's why I pointed out that since candied apples are a finish item now instead of holding onto them he can sell them off to fund making apple pies later on. Since candied apples are a finish item they have sale value to more than just vendors.

[VolgaDark]

<div></div><div><div align="center"><span><hr size="2" width="100%"></span></div><p><span><font color="#ff3333">Beghn wrote:</font></span></p><p><span>I didn't forget about that aspect of provisioners I have a plan for their recipes as well.</span><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#000000"></font></span> </p><div align="center"><span><font color="#000000"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"></span></div><span>This is what Ben wrote in Tradeskilling forum. So unless he finds a moment to elaborate what his plan exactly is we have no real idea how it will effect provisioners since about 90% of our products are already finished items. I sure wish he would tell us….. </span></div>

[your savior]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>It makes sense to me but that's why I pointed out that since candied apples are a finish item now instead of holding onto them he can sell them off to fund making apple pies later on. Since candied apples are a finish item they have sale value to more than just vendors.<hr></blockquote>Not about the money; it's about the grind.</span></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>your savior wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>It makes sense to me but that's why I pointed out that since candied apples are a finish item now instead of holding onto them he can sell them off to fund making apple pies later on. Since candied apples are a finish item they have sale value to more than just vendors.<hr></blockquote>Not about the money; it's about the grind.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Then why was the complaint about using more apples rather than having to make more pies? If it was about making more pies then well they make more pies and that could be grind. But when the argument is that it takes more raws then its an issue about money, and for a provisioner they get to sell the low end stuff they made that they didn't before since it'd be needed for the higher end items in a tier. And there's not really going to be a grind that wasn't there before. A provisioner will still make candied apples for a while then apple pies, just like in live. Other classes though will be grinding on final products rather than on WORTs. The grind isn't becoming less or more, just what you grind on is. And for those like me its more fulfilling to grind on a final product than subcombines. It also means if I'm not in a rush to level I can make fianl products I need or that others need and feel accomplishment. Rather than taking all that time to make one final product I can now make 3-4 final products, feeling much more productive. Actually when I do have to craft that's about how I do it now, by buying most of my subcombines rather than make them myself.

[Dessellion4]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cynto wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darkcreator wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is that you will not have to make a candied apple at all in order to make an apple pie. Your apple pie recipe will look something like:</p><p>2 honey, 1apple, 2 liquid, 5 kindling = apple pie</p><p>That won't be the exact recipe, but you should get the idea. (I haven't made an apple pie in a LONG time so I don't remember what ingredients go into it.)</p><p>No more candied apple unless you specifically want to make one. And you will no longer be able to make anything else with a candied apple, it will be a finished product. Example recipe for candied apple:</p><p>1 apple, 1 honey, 1 liquid, 2 kindling=candied apple</p><p>I hope this helps explain it better.</p><hr></blockquote><p>What he was trying to say I believe is that as a provisioner he used to make candied apples (Which can be eaten by themselves, they are a finish item) and then save them to make the pies (Pies are also a finish item, but candied apples were used in making apple pies). With this method, he could level up the beginning of the teir with the candied apples, save them, and when he finally got the recipie for the pies, could immediately start making pies without having to harvest more apples to do so.</p><p>Now, with the new method of crafting, candied apples will be a seperate item unto themselves, and no longer used in apple pies as a sub component. So, at the low end of the teir he will have to still make candied apples to level, and once he finally gets to the level to make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples to make them, as candied apples will no longer be used in the pies, he will need a regular harvested apples.</p><p>So basicly, as the system is now, 100 apples might let him level to the point of being able to make pies lets say, and since he made candied apples to get to that point, he already has the sub component to make the pies. New system he will have to make those same 100 candied apples, but then when he can FINALLY make the pies, he will have to go out and harvest more apples, because the ones he used in the candied apples are of no use to him for crafting. Basicly it doubles the number of apples he has to harvest or buy from broker to level.</p><p>I hope that makes sense.</p><hr></blockquote><strong>It makes sense to me but that's why I pointed out that since candied apples are a finish item now instead of holding onto them he can sell them off to fund making apple pies later on. Since candied apples are a finish item they have sale value to more than just vendors.</strong><hr></blockquote>Seems reasonable doesn't it.  Let me give you a dose of reality as it is now.  I got a commission for food and drink yesterday.  Money for the buyer being no object I looked to buy the necessary raws on the broker.  There were none available, no Marjoram, no Rye and certainly no Fayberries to be had for cash, at any price.  End result being that I had to go harvesting.  Not a bad thing in itself but remember that in T3 there are (I think) nine possibles from every shrub.  Depending on luck (and often it is against you) it can take many hours to gather enough ingredients for one stack of finished recipes.  So imagine if raws are even more in demand for people to be able to level their Provisioners.  More and more people camping shrubs, fewer and fewer ingredients on the broker.  What does this hold for the future?  No one except people twinking alts is going to be able to afford anything provisioners are able to craft.  And certainly provisioners are quickly going to get really sick to death of harvesting. 

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dessellion wrote:<div></div>Seems reasonable doesn't it.  Let me give you a dose of reality as it is now.  I got a commission for food and drink yesterday.  Money for the buyer being no object I looked to buy the necessary raws on the broker.  There were none available, no Marjoram, no Rye and certainly no Fayberries to be had for cash, at any price.  End result being that I had to go harvesting.  Not a bad thing in itself but remember that in T3 there are (I think) nine possibles from every shrub.  Depending on luck (and often it is against you) it can take many hours to gather enough ingredients for one stack of finished recipes.  So imagine if raws are even more in demand for people to be able to level their Provisioners.  More and more people camping shrubs, fewer and fewer ingredients on the broker.  What does this hold for the future?  No one except people twinking alts is going to be able to afford anything provisioners are able to craft.  And certainly provisioners are quickly going to get really sick to death of harvesting. <hr></blockquote>And this is why I won't play a provisioner at all. What you're pointing out is a flaw that's already there that will likely become even more evident when the changes go live. I know the pain of getting what you want from a shrub or fungus with harvesting without playing a provisioner. That's why if I get a workshop task to get something from them I wait on teh timer and ask for something else. The problem isn't in the raws being needed to crafting its that there's too many raws to pick from from only two types of nodes, and the fact that only provisioners or people with a workshop task generally harvests them. Since none of the harvests from them are used in making armor or weapons most just ignore them. I specifically harvest them on my main because our guild leader is a provisioner and needs the harvests. I've also noticed that the market generally only has t1, t2, t5, and t6 harvests on it, at least on Faydark. It seems that t3 and t4 aren't harvested much, and when they are only by people needing them. It sounds like the best solution for provisioners is to have more nodes or less types of food, but then you have to deal with each type of node for crafting coming up less often or less recipes since you have less raw materials to work with.

[your savior]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:Then why was the complaint about using more apples rather than having to make more pies? If it was about making more pies then well they make more pies and that could be grind. <font color="#ffffff">But when the argument is that it takes more raws then its an issue about money</font>, <font color="#ff3300">no, it really isn't </font>and for a provisioner they get to sell the low end stuff they made that they didn't before since it'd be needed for the higher end items in a tier. And there's not really going to be a grind that wasn't there before. A provisioner will still make candied apples for a while then apple pies, just like in live. Other classes though will be grinding on final products rather than on WORTs. The grind isn't becoming less or more, just what you grind on is. And for those like me its more fulfilling to grind on a final product than subcombines. It also means if I'm not in a rush to level I can make fianl products I need or that others need and feel accomplishment. Rather than taking all that time to make one final product I can now make 3-4 final products, feeling much more productive. Actually when I do have to craft that's about how I do it now, by buying most of my subcombines rather than make them myself.  <font color="#ff3300">Changes work nice for my sage but my provisioner loses out though.  Provisioners are already in the position other tradeskills are directed towards and this move will only be a setback for them; that is my concern.</font><hr></blockquote>If the changes work the way they are intended to do for other classes then before you have;1 apple to make a candied apple.1 candied apple to make and apple pie.1 apple total.After;1 apple to make a candied apple.1 apple to make an apple pie.2 apples total.The problem is you need twice as many apples to craft through the tier.  This isn't limited to just using apples, but I'm using it to demonstrate my point.  Candied apples and apple pies will also use honey for example. You can't make the pies until you are in the later levels in the tier.  So grinding the apples at the begining helps you gain levels; I can't avoid using the apples in the begining so I have no way around it.</span><span>There is always an item when levelling through a tier you can never have too much of; in this case honey is that item.  Now; using twice as much as had to before when I still didn't have enough is a step backwards.As seen above something is planed for the Provisioner class which may be the answer to the problem I've shown.  I'm not complaining about the changes; this is a real problem and I'm just stating it.</span></div>