Why such dramatic changes?

[masterche]

Just a question to the devs and game designers. not realy to any common players. (but there will always be a couple non-dev players that will reply because of some high horse issue.)Why are you making such dramatic changes to classes?and even more important.Why are you making such dramatic changes to crafting.Crafting was perfect the way it is.If i could change change anything, i would change cross over counters to use the 10% power instead of 15%.Thats all.But you're changing everything. The entire way the game is played.I just want to know why?This game isnt in beta anymore. people are paying hard earned money. And you just mess with us and your minds?just..Why?<div></div>

[Steelpul]

<div></div>It's all part of a master plan to get rid of eq1 and make eq2 soe's new bread and butter.Also the fact that eq2 in it's live state, is the next thing closest to real life. I don't even feel like i'm logging on a game when I get on eq2, I feel all the responsiblitys and stresses of life, when I log on. EQ2 live is nothing to escape to, it's probably MORE stressful to play eq2 live than it is to go through life.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Steelpulse on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:49 AM</span></p>

[Anlari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Steelpulse wrote:<div></div>It's all part of a master plan to get rid of eq1 and make eq2 soe's new bread and butter.Also the fact that eq2 in it's live state, is the next thing closest to real life. I don't even feel like i'm logging on a game when I get on eq2, I feel all the responsiblitys and stresses of life, when I log on. EQ2 live is nothing to escape to, it's probably MORE stressful to play eq2 live than it is to go through life.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Steelpulse on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:49 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>*Chuckles*

[tebion]

<span><blockquote><hr>mastercheft wrote:Just a question to the devs and game designers. not realy to any common players. (but there will always be a couple non-dev players that will reply because of some high horse issue.)<div></div><hr></blockquote>well, then use PM's if you don't want "common players" to reply?that has nothing to do with high horses ... thats a public forum, thats all.</span><div></div>

[Igu]

<div>It seems that crafting is undergoing WoW-ification too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Steelpul]

<span><blockquote><hr>Igu wrote:<div>It seems that crafting is undergoing WoW-ification too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>What are you talking about? Why should people spend 7 hours on tradeskills for a few 20 skill ups or so? It's redicilous.Alot of people forget that this is a game.Also, by all means, don't get me wrong. I really don't like world of warcraft, simply because it's so user friendly and easy it's just not fun, but what they're doing with EQ2 on the test server is in no way what they've done with WoW. Everquest 2 will still be hard, and it will still appeal to it's more mature middle age baby boomer audiance.</span><div></div>

[YourTypicalEQIIPlay]

I really like the new changes (picking your adventuring class at level 1),  and I have yet to hear anything but praise to Sony about this change from anyone on the test server testing it out.Have you given the new changes a shot?  Experience it and send in some feedback; give it a shot, and you may find that you like it.<div></div>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

Mastercheft......this is a public forum. While I don't actually give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about post counts, I should remind you too that you are a Journeyman with only 35 posts. Surely that puts you with the *common* players? You're an intruder in your own thread in a way.Anyway, now that's over with, It isn't a problem if the game is changed. Your Terms and Conditions state that SOE has the right to change the game at any time without warning. Thing is, most people want these changes.<div></div>

[kenm]

<div></div><div>You don't need a dev response on this because it's simple for an average player to answer.</div><div> </div><div>It's because they're SOE.  They completely revamp perfectly working systems instead of fixing actual bugs, it's like their trademark.</div><div>When did EQ start going downhill?  When SOE took over.</div><div>When did Infantry go downhill?  When SOE bought it, took out the good zones, flooded it with Skirmish clones, and made it p2p.</div><div>I don't even think I have to go over SWG, everyone knows about that.</div><div> </div><div>If you want an actual logical response to this topic, you're not going to get one.  Why?  There's absolutely no logic behind it!</div><div>The fact that the game was named "EverQuest 2" already drove away the people that wanted a Fisher Price MMORPG, and now the main player base is the people that don't want that type of game. (If they did, they'd be playing WoW right now!)  Completely revamping things isn't going to bring in people from WoW, but it is going to make Vanguard look more appealing to a lot of current players.</div><div> </div><div>My advice when it comes to dealing with SOE - Enjoy the game while you can, since you won't be able to forever.</div>

[FLLonewu]

<div><blockquote><hr>mastercheft wrote:Just a question to the devs and game designers. not realy to any common players. (but there will always be a couple non-dev players that will reply because of some high horse issue.)Why are you making such dramatic changes to classes?and even more important.Why are you making such dramatic changes to crafting.Crafting was perfect the way it is.If i could change change anything, i would change cross over counters to use the 10% power instead of 15%.Thats all.But you're changing everything. The entire way the game is played.I just want to know why?This game isnt in beta anymore. people are paying hard earned money. And you just mess with us and your minds?just..Why?<div></div><hr></blockquote>IMHO its dumbing down the game to apeal to a broader audience (call it the WoW factor).  EQ2 is more geared to the hardcore or dedicated gamer, and the more casual gamer has been turned off by some of the more complex aspects of the game (ie character development, hetitage quests,  and crafting to name just a few).  To promote viablility of thier product longterm, they need a larger subscription base (yes it all comes down to money).  By dumbing down and simplifying many aspects of the game they are attempting to broaden that base into the casual player at the risk of ostracizing the more dedicated and hard-core player since there are numbers wise more of the former.</div>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

Although the hardcore players are a minority. IMO, I'd actually like it if there were less hardcore players. Thing is, they pretty much ruin the game. If you don't get much time to play, your one guarantee if that whatever you do, a herdcore player will already have done. I've seen people go from level 10 to level 50 in a matter of weeks while I struggle up to 40.<div></div>

[Steelpul]

<span><blockquote><hr>FLLonewulf wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><hr></blockquote>IMHO its dumbing down the game to apeal to a broader audience (call it the WoW factor).  EQ2 is more geared to the hardcore or dedicated gamer, and the more casual gamer has been turned off by some of the more complex aspects of the game (ie character development, hetitage quests,  and crafting to name just a few).  To promote viablility of thier product longterm, they need a larger subscription base (yes it all comes down to money).  By dumbing down and simplifying many aspects of the game they are attempting to broaden that base into the casual player at the risk of ostracizing the more dedicated and hard-core player since there are numbers wise more of the former.</div><hr></blockquote>You're very wrong sir. EQ 2 is directed towards people who have no lives at all. There's nothing fun about sitting and playing real life on a video game.</span><div></div>

[Steelpul]

<span><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div>You don't need a dev response on this because it's simple for an average player to answer.</div><div> </div><div>It's because they're SOE.  They completely revamp perfectly working systems instead of fixing actual bugs, it's like their trademark.</div><div>When did EQ start going downhill?  When SOE took over.</div><div>When did Infantry go downhill?  When SOE bought it, took out the good zones, flooded it with Skirmish clones, and made it p2p.</div><div>I don't even think I have to go over SWG, everyone knows about that.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>I agree with you on everything that I quoted.However, Sony is sobering up. They're realising that they can't do this anymore. Yes, it seems that they're just scrapping a good car to put new parts into it, but in all reality, they should have done this when they STARTED eq2 in the first place. The whole branching out idea was a mistake, it just made people bored of the same old 4 classes and they didn't really get a feel untill they had to level up all the way to 20 to realise that, Hey! I don't like my class, why did I waste my time leveling all the way to 20 for this garbage? and it just rinses and repeats.Sony is going to have to sober up, and I really think they are right now, because they're going to lose really easily to vanguard if they keep up what they've been doing for the last 7 years of their online gaming fiasco.</span><div></div>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<div></div>Ok. EQ2 isn't going to lose all it's players. It'd have to lose a few hundred thousand if not millions of players in order to go down. The people who post and say that they're quitting and migrating to Vanguard are in a minority. They often don't even go through with it.So, enough with the "Vanguard is going to sap EQ2 dry" BS because it's not happening.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Deadly Nightshadow on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:21 AM</span></p>

[Dalick]

<div></div><p>Click the Development hotlink at the top of the page. That is the Dev Tracker. Most of your questions have been answered by a Dev or 3 in there. Easy way to get what you want to know is already been posted on another thread.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Steelpul]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:<div></div>Ok. EQ2 isn't going to lose all it's players. It'd have to lose a few hundred thousand if not millions of players in order to go down. The people who post and say that they're quitting and migrating to Vanguard are in a minority. They often don't even go through with it.So, enough with the "Vanguard is going to sap EQ2 dry" BS because it's not happening.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Deadly Nightshadow on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:21 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>If you havn't noticed, WoW sapped Everquest AND Everquest 2 dry for a while, unfortunitly WoW got boring after the first week of play.BUT! If you have ever canceled your everquest or everquest 2 account, they put you through this long and boring process about why you quit. The majority of the questions were " would you come back to everquest 2 if there was pvp? " and the others were " Are you leaving everquest for World of Warcraft ? "<div></div>

[Amujen]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>FLLonewulf wrote:<div>IMHO its dumbing down the game to apeal to a broader audience (call it the WoW factor).  EQ2 is more geared to the hardcore or dedicated gamer, and the more casual gamer has been turned off by some of the more complex aspects of the game (ie character development, hetitage quests,  and crafting to name just a few).  To promote viablility of thier product longterm, they need a larger subscription base (yes it all comes down to money).  By dumbing down and simplifying many aspects of the game they are attempting to broaden that base into the casual player at the risk of ostracizing the more dedicated and hard-core player since there are numbers wise more of the former.</div><hr></blockquote>Seems many people confuse tedium with complexity.</span></div>

[Steelpul]

<span><blockquote><hr>Amujen wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><hr></blockquote>Seems many people confuse tedium with complexity.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Thanks Amujen, that pretty much sums it up.</span><div></div>

[EternallyConfuzzled]

<div></div><div>>there will always be a couple non-dev players that</div><div>>will reply because of some high horse issue</div><div>I'm afraid that comment makes you look like a stuck-up pompous [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Also, you realize that SOE has a policy of not replying to threads that openly ask for a developer response, right?</div><div> </div><div>>I just want to know why?</div><div>If you don't mind me offering my high horse opinion, I think that a game that doesn't evolve will quickly die. This is especially true with MMO's, and SOE is trying shake things up in a way that entices new players to come to the game and old players to relive the low end, giving them time to slowly expand the high end.</div><div> </div><div>I get the impression that you couldn't care less if the game is changed, and if you liked the changes, you wouldn't have bothered posting this thread. No, what you seem to care about is that you don't like the changes. How about instead of asking why a change was made, provide feedback about why you don't like it. There's a better chance of getting it reversed or modified to your liking that way. It's pretty obvious that subtlety is not the best policy when it comes to feedback. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[kenm]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Steelpulse wrote:<span>I agree with you on everything that I quoted.However, Sony is sobering up. They're realising that they can't do this anymore. Yes, it seems that they're just scrapping a good car to put new parts into it, but in all reality, they should have done this when they STARTED eq2 in the first place. The whole branching out idea was a mistake, it just made people bored of the same old 4 classes and they didn't really get a feel untill they had to level up all the way to 20 to realise that, Hey! I don't like my class, why did I waste my time leveling all the way to 20 for this garbage? and it just rinses and repeats.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I personally don't really have a problem with the archetype change.  The system was a nice way to feel actual progression, but incredibly annoying when making alts with the same archetype.  I'm more concerned with the upcoming major crafting revamp.  It's going to take the one thing unique about EQ2 and throw it into the trash.  They've already made death meaningless and soon crafting will become  incredibly basic, what else are they going to do to ruin the game?  I just have a feeling one day I'll log on and be at the cap with all the best equipment because "We felt that playing the game was tedious, everyone just wants the end product!"</p>

[Kizee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:Although the hardcore players are a minority. IMO, I'd actually like it if there were less hardcore players. Thing is, they pretty much ruin the game. If you don't get much time to play, your one guarantee if that whatever you do, a herdcore player will already have done. I've seen people go from level 10 to level 50 in a matter of weeks while I struggle up to 40.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>First of all... I don't know why casuals think that hardcore players are the minortity. :p Most of the people I have meet in MMORPG's normally play a good amount of time (at least 3-4 hours a every night and more on weekends)</p><p>I tend to join family type guilds that I would assume would have more casuals in them....thats not the case at all. I think I can count the casual people I have met on one hand in the 15 years I have been playing online games.</p><p> </p><p>Secondly...why do the casuals even play these games and expect to have the same stuff or level as fast as someone that puts in 10X the time?  I know people that only play once and a while but they play to have fun and don't worry about levels or the equipment they have.</p><p>If you are one of the people that want to level fast and have the best stuff for little time than maybe you should consider a console game or one of the many single player RPGs out there :p</p><p> </p><p>I know that I am getting more and more annoyed how this game is getting closer to how WoW is.  If I wanted to play an entry level MMORPG then I would be playing that game.</p>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

/sigh.....I knew someone would give that response. I play for around 10 hours per weekend. It's the weekdays that slow me down. Hardcore players aren't 3-4 hours at weekends. That's you normal, average player. Also, I wasn't complaining about not being able to level as fast, I was just saying that that speed ruins alot of the content. And why don't I move to a game like WoW? I like a mature community that isn't brimming with 11 year olds, immature teenagers and trolls.<div></div>

[masterche]

<div></div>2 things to the people who arent devs and replied.1, i made it a public thread so EVERYONE can "see" and "read" the devs responce.2, You cant be a passanger when you're driving the car.So im not intruding my own thread.But the fact so many non-dev players replied. this thread is officially trashed.Thanks guys. once, just once i wish people would follow the guildlines i set to the thread i created, but some people lack the mental ability to follow such guildlines.To any mods/admins.Lock this thread now please.Edit: i just wanted direct info on a quick why. a dev coulda said "because we felt like it" and that woulda been good enough for me.<div></div><p>Message Edited by mastercheft on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:33 AM</span></p>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

Devs don't reply when you ask them to....In fact, it's in the rules that they aren't allowed to. They reply when they see fit to do so.<div></div>

[Kizee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:/sigh.....I knew someone would give that response. I play for around 10 hours per weekend. It's the weekdays that slow me down. Hardcore players aren't 3-4 hours at weekends. That's you normal, average player. Also, I wasn't complaining about not being able to level as fast, I was just saying that that speed ruins alot of the content. And why don't I move to a game like WoW? I like a mature community that isn't brimming with 11 year olds, immature teenagers and trolls.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>1.) I didn't say 3-4 hours on weekend. I said 3-4 hours every night and MORE ON  WEEKENDS.</p><p>2.) I didn't say go to WoW. I was just expressing my hatred of where this game was going.</p><p>I don't know how people leveling too fast is ruining the game for you unless you are jealous of what they have and want the same but just don't have the time. That is why I made the remark about maybe people like you should stick to the single player RPGs and not MMORPGs which are obviously HUGE timesinks.</p><p>Some people like to level fast to get to the endgame... I am not one of them. However, this game is stupidly easy to level in. IMO I think that they should slow the leveling down alot.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Kenazeer]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:<div></div>Ok. EQ2 isn't going to lose all it's players. It'd have to lose a few hundred thousand if not millions of players in order to go down. The people who post and say that they're quitting and migrating to Vanguard are in a minority. They often don't even go through with it.<strong>So, enough with the "Vanguard is going to sap EQ2 dry" BS because it's not happening.</strong><div></div><p>Message Edited by Deadly Nightshadow on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:21 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know about your server/guild, but I see discussions every day. Enough to "sap" the game? Probably not. Enough to cause a shake up? You betcha it is a possibility.</p><p>Note: A lot of the talk I see is not necessarily of the "I am leaving for Vanguard type" it is the "I'll give it a try and see if I like it." What kills me is that once people have tried it, and vested time in characters there, what will it take to draw them back?</p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>I think somebody in SOE is reading the WOW forums.  They are making things a little more friendly for the average player.  Complaints right now in WOW are that they have made it at the end level Hardcore/Raider friendly and casual/non-raider unfriendly.  I think they are positioning themselves to steal back people from the WOW crowd that they lost before.  Vanguard from what I've read is truly for those who miss the EQ I good old days.  It is everything everybody who wanted EQII to be when all they wanted was a clone of EQ I with better graphics.  Not to say the Vangaurd stopped there they have from what is posted a lot more added to it.  It will be interesting to see.  But in the end a lot of us have to ask ourselves, "Do I want to feel like I have a second job or do I want to feel like I'm enjoying myself.?"  For some of you you like the over complex system of the arch types and some like the over complex system of the current tradeskills.  Thats for you.  Not for me.  I think they will put these systems in test and see the reactions.  If they are favorable they will put them in.  If they are not, well I'm as skeptical as you, they will put them in.   Once they are live we will truly see what people think.  One of the fears I hear from current tradeskillers is that the market will be flooded with items.  Well wouldn't that show more people are interested in tradeskills?</div>

[Fo]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Igu wrote:<div>It seems that crafting is undergoing WoW-ification too. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Now, now, that's not true.  EQ2 crafted items are at least useable and practical still.</span><div></div>

[raan]

1st off left me start with I understand that MMOs will change and that said such change is a necessary part of it, for good or bad. With that said, here comes the rant and rave.   I played EQ1 for a few months and found it not to friendly for a  solo type. (dissagree all you want) The graphics were sup par and the crafting was rather dull. So I left for something more interesting. I eventually found my way to SWG and loved the crafting but the time and money needed to get resources was a killer. So off I went again. EQ2 comes out and I figure, ok why not try it, I had heard very good things about from a friend that was a major eq1 vet. I get in and and go "wow" this is wonderfull, Its eq1, but not. The crafting was enjoyable, yes a bit tedious at times, but still enjoyable. Getting what I needed was realatively easy, but not mind numbingly slow. The combat was ok for a solo type. and odd as it was, the class selection was interesting. So I hung around and enjoyed the game for a few months.   In comes the major change. Combat and spells get such a major change that I feel cheap in a "normal"  fight, and fights that I could do before I found myself running from like a whipped pup. Spell lines so totally changed that spell books started to get loaded with useless spells from low levels. I mean really why  lock down old spells. Take healing, I would like to drop just a smaller top of heal for for a mage that was slightly hurt from a stray shot with say my level 10 heal spell while waiting for my level 20 big heal to recharge so I could keep my tank from keeling over from multiple hits. Or in the case of a mage, I know 3 diffent DOTs, but now I am only able to use 1. If I know how to cast it, let me cast it. Sure 3 points every tick is nothing to a level 25 mob, but damage is damage, and thats 3 less points I have to worry about. So personally makeing spell lines share reuse timers rerally killed things for me. So I left EQ2 and went back to something that was way more playable, COV.   Now I am a crafter at heart and COV's crafting is somthing I have yet to even manage to get to, and from what I have seen of it, its bites. So I come back to EQ2 so I can at least enjoy that. Haveing been back for about a week I hear that they are doing major changes to it. Now I discover that crafting is going to become more like EQ1. Sure throw in a bunch of raw stuff and do the match and click thing and pop, finished product. All I can say is, "huh". Sure having to make sub comp after sub comp after sub comp was tedious and a bit mind numbing at times, but it felt real and over all enjoyable. I felt like I had acctually acomplished something when I was done makeing a nice suit of armor.  Its realistic, but not overly burndend with subcomps to make it annoying. Heck tell you what, try this, take a bunch of iron, some coal, some roots, and sit down infront of a forge. Now make me a suit of armor. never happen. or better yet look what REALLY has to be done for all the subcomps for a suit of armor. Or even making a nice meal, 2 or 3 sub comps Is not that bad to make stuff, it really is a fair trade off.   Class selection is a whole different ball of wax. Again I loved the idea of starting small and earning your way up. Its real without being to real life. The argurment that, Oh I wasted all this time and don't like my toon, so lets just make it pick your class in the begining is a joke. You say you don't know your toon till you hit level 20, well then fix the quests to acctually teach you, not just go over here read this, go over there kill that. Hmmm, lets see, ok I am born, grow up and after I go to school and learn the basic life stuff, grades 1-5ish, I say I am going to be a doctor. So after a few months of being a doctor while I am the age of a 6th grader, I should know more about how to be a doctor than some one who went through the early stages of being a nurse, and than an intern.   So all in all EQ2 is really starting to feel like EQ1 with way better graphics. This is just my 2 cents worth. You can argue with any or all the points made here in, and can even try to flame me if you want. I don't come back in here it argue or even see what people has said about my opinion. But there it is. Take it or leave it. Suffice to say I am gonna leave and really won't be comming back.<div></div>

[Giral]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>expansion comes out , the hardcore Come back  blow to 70 in a week or 2  wipe endgame content and then they will go back to beta testing games.</p><p>the intermediate will take 1 to 2 months to get there and then complete endgame in another month or so and  get bored</p><p>the casual well they will be playing D&D online it's a New MMO and a place for them to see how much they can get Nerfed They aren't in eq2 for the Long haul they hear cuase it's a newer MMO , D&D will be the New kid on the block , and they aren't Loyal Player's they go from game to game as fast as they can , so SOE has a week between KOs to D&D release to try to pull them away from a BRAND spankin New MMO , better Graphic's Better Group Dynamic's, More interactive combat engine this alone sound;s like fun and exciting : ) you actually combat IN combat : )</p><p> </p><p>Vangard  from what i have read has been in development for 4+ years , they have Branched quest's so you dont just get quest go kill mob go to location, get reward , you will actually have Choices to How you will complete quest's , EI : a boy is kidnapped you can a) pay the ransom, b) convince the parent's to pay ransom, c) try to kill the kidnapper's , d) try to find something worth trading for the kidnapped child , e) try to join the kidnapper's and get part of the risk or reward , etc. ... this implimentation alone show's that Vangard is a much more indepth game that player's could have many option's even in just the Questing Aspect alone</p><p>simple fact is How many Easy MMO's can 1 person play ? the Casual's already only say they Play for a couple hour's a week and maybe 3 to 4 on weekend's / So how would they play WOW , eq2, D&D, Vangard and other's >?  they wouldn't OR couldn't , Variety is the Spice of life ,  Eq1 (outdated use to be Hardcore is gone the soft route ), WOW(easy) Eq2(Was right in the middle now it's Easier than WoW), D&D(time will tell but Main Focus was in developing  the Combat ; ) , and Vangard(Eq3 a Hopefully Truely Next Gen MMO , Very many interesting creative idea's in Vangard , sure there will be some similarities(Corpse run's) but hey here is a MMO that Anyone can play BUT it will be up to you What you achieve with your Time NOT the developer's having to impliment Easy mode ( they Will NOT have a Main forum like Eq2 and WOW : ) they not stupid they see WOW and EQ2 forum's Are nothing but a Bashfest of Either side of the Coin Good/Bad , and they Dev's shouldn't Be listening THEY should be Creating thier OWn Unique MMO , i'd rather play Eq2 as it was at release they had Many good idea's that BUilt apon Previous idea's (nothing really Ground breakingly Next Gen BUT just enough of Fine tuning that the game Had Submersion, Risk vs Reward , no Terrible Timesink's, Access quest's(sense of accomplishment for new zones /area's ) they have removed all of that in the name of as the new term is =Tedium instead of timesink= yeah you can take a jet plane to get to a new place in 2 hour's but you dont see anything or experiance anything on the way thier , it's just another airplane flight , if however you took a horse it would take you say a Week to get there ,and in those travel's should be Risk, reward, Adventure, Fun, and some Fear, eq2 is now Win/Win on ALL front's there is Absolutly No negative's in the EQ2Please debt/armor Haha /sarcasm off ) ,</p><p>and Eq2 dev's Play WoW they said so themselves"iot would be stupid of us NOT to see what are competitor's are doing" , you PAy the Dev's , they Play WOW : ) , the Play WoW so much they say "Hey let's Take WoW a step even further let's just Remove ALL Tough Apsect's of ther game : ), survey Say's "X" , i still dont know Who these people are that wan't a Totally easy game to play , The arguement revolves around Tedium now and those that didnt like the aspect's that GOT removed asking for answer's of how Time wasted = Fun , i wouldn't care if the removed Shard's and sped up travel IF they would make some INdepth , Challenging , Submersive Game play , as it is lvl 20 thru 60 are the EXACT same GAME , there is NOTHING diffrent about game at level 30 to level 60 , the game plays the Same , no increased difficulty at Endgame, no Skill needed, no real Tactic's , no planning , NO THINKING , they game is Boring lol ; ( , the game at release had a good , steady way to advance and Feel like you Are your character, Mini Ding's, lvel 1 thru 15  felt easy, 15 thru 25 game started to from up you started to come into your toon, 25 to 40 you had all your class specific starter skills : ) , 40 to 50 you realy feeling like you accomplished alot : ) you worked hard , did a lot o content,etc.......level 50 thru 60 you Giong to Endgame : ) you made it it was all Worth it : ) you in the ButterZone Weeeeee,</p><p>Now 1 thru 60 = Same ol same, Win/Win , can get 60 in a couple month's of casual play , no real sense of accomplishment, no FEAR , no submersion , no real Fun , game handed to you on a Golden Plater , <- i'm sorry i just can't see anybody enjoying this type of game play ? do people really enjoy this Uber easy mode ? from what i read on forum's even some casual's don't like alot of the change's , the only ones that are totally in favor of Everything SOE does are A) it's SOe's game they can do whatever they wan't And b0 the self professed Ultra Casuals that Bash a game ,Blow thru the content, and Move onto the next NEw game, everyone else Want's a game to sink thier teath into Wether for 1 hour or 10 hour's IMO ,</p><p> i would rather have 1 hour of fun,challenging ,fear filled,exciting,stimulating, Mind Usefull game play, the 10 hour's of Blah win/win same game no matter What zone, What level, everything is Click you win, click you get quest, click you crafted a item , lol this sound's fun for about 15 minute's but week after week? Game after Game , Howmany easy MMo's can YOU play?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:34 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:37 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

<i>"Why are you making such dramatic changes to classes?"</i>What sort of changes are they making to classes?  I thought they were only changing how they leveled.  And how will these changes effect existing high-level characters?<div></div>

[actaeus]

<div></div><p>again boo, dont make the test server crafting changes go live, all it seems SoE is trying to do is make EQ2 like WoW, dont simplify crafting, ive worked my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to get my crafters to the lvl they are at, and with these changes everyone will be the same lvl as me in 1/3 of the time and it will take away the entire point of crafting. crafting should be hard work, not this easy crap on test.../shame</p>

[Moontayle]

<div></div><p>Being a level 60 Weaponsmith I feel I can safely offer my opinion on the tradeskill matter. But it comes in the form of a question...</p><p>What is the difference between making a Longsword that takes x amount of resources and 4 steps to complete and a Longsword that takes the same x resources and 1 step to complete?</p><p>The answer is time. That is the only difference between the two. The end result is the same. Now, would <em>you</em> rather spend five minutes getting ready to do that final combine? I always thought that the process was overly tedious and the fact that almost every tradeskill class had some sort of community spreadsheet so they could keep track of what builds each final combine needed was rediculous to say the least. Blackguard is right. The <em>fun</em> of tradeskills is making the product itself, not the steps leading up to it.</p><p>So why is it a problem that they're boiling it down to the actual fun part of the process?</p>

[kenm]

<div></div><div>Because boiling it down to the "fun" part takes out any sense of accomplishment?</div><div> </div><div>I can use his incredibly flawed logic to design a revamp for the entire leveling system.</div><div> </div><div><hr>Getting levels 2-60</div><div> </div><div>Which part of that was fun for me? The part in which I dinged level 60.  How long did that part take?  One encounter at 99% exp.  How long did the rest take? 1+ month.  There's something wrong here, and the removal of the levels 2-59 is designed to remedy that.</div><div><hr></div><div> </div><div>Or how about a redesign of raids?</div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div>Getting a guild together.</div><div>Doing an access quest if necessary.</div><div>Planning a strategy.</div><div>Buffing up.</div><div>Having a long battle with the raid mob.</div><div>Getting ph4t l3wt.</div><div> </div><div>Which part of that was fun for me? The part in which I got the loot. How long did that part take? Seconds. How long did the rest take? Some-odd time longer than that. There's something wrong here, and the addition of venders selling fabled equipment for 1cp is designed to remedy that.</div><div><hr></div><div> </div><div>Or maybe a redesign of the battle system.</div><div> </div><div><hr></div><div>Pulling the mob.</div><div>Auto-attacking and using abilities to lower mobs health.</div><div>Defeating said mob.</div><div> </div><div>Which part of that was fun for me? The part in which I defeated the mob. How long did that part take? The same time it took to do the final blow. How long did the rest take? The time it took to do every hit before the final blow. There's something wrong here, and the change of setting all the mobs health to 1 so you can one hit them easily is designed to remedy that.</div><div><hr></div><p>No, even all of those wouldn't be good enough... We need a redesign of the entire game!</p><p></p><hr>Creating a character.Playing the game doing quests, earning money, crafting, running to other zones, and sometimes interacting with other people and grinding.Hitting the cap and getting all fabled armor.<p>Which part of that was fun for me? The part in which I became the highest level and had the best armor in the game. How long did that part take? Less that a second for each instance. How long did the rest take? More than a month.  There's something wrong here, and starting everyone out at level 60 with all fabled gear and spells to instantly teleport to any zone in the game is designed to remedy that.</p><hr><p>I'm pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure every single person would agree that every thing I've mentioned in this post would be incredibly [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], so I ask you this: Why is dumbing down crafting not? The entire game is a timesink, making something barely take any time to accomplish makes the game get boring incredibly fast. </p><p>How many people actually like playing RO on a private server with 1000000x rates? You run out of Prontera, kill a Poring, run back to the job changer, run out and kill another Poring, get your next job, kill another one, get reborn as a Novice High, kill another one, get your next job, kill another one, get your final job, run over to the npc handing out free equipment and doppelganger cards, and what else is there?  You just run around on trivial content with nothing but incredibly broken PvP.  And to think, all the conviences on the server were to remove "tedium".  Removing tedium on a MMORPG (Read: Game that lives off of the time it takes to progress, not skill.) removes the entire point of playing.</p>

[ChrisRay]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Amujen wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>FLLonewulf wrote:<div>IMHO its dumbing down the game to apeal to a broader audience (call it the WoW factor).  EQ2 is more geared to the hardcore or dedicated gamer, and the more casual gamer has been turned off by some of the more complex aspects of the game (ie character development, hetitage quests,  and crafting to name just a few).  To promote viablility of thier product longterm, they need a larger subscription base (yes it all comes down to money).  By dumbing down and simplifying many aspects of the game they are attempting to broaden that base into the casual player at the risk of ostracizing the more dedicated and hard-core player since there are numbers wise more of the former.</div><hr></blockquote>Seems many people confuse tedium with complexity.</span></div><hr></blockquote>A-men to that . Tradeskills can still be complex without being tedious. You sum up my thoughts exactly. I love the complexity and involvement  EQ2s tradeskill system. I hate the tedium of it. I am actually liking what I have seen of this change so far. It'll be a nice change of pace and make tradeskilling less of a boring tedious thing to do. I literally watch DVDS and digital cable while tradeskilling because its so damned tedious.  </span></div>

[Moontayle]

<div></div><p>kenman, do you actually believe anything you've just written or are you talking for the hell of it? What you're talking about is like comparing a mouse to an elephant. The only thing about crafting, the only really fun thing about crafting, is making products and selling them to players. That's it. That's all it boils down to. The leveling process is tedious and mind-numbingly boring and all you have to do is listen to the majority of players who've said, in this very thread, that they spend more time watching movies and the television than actually paying attention to the game while they're crafting.</p><p>They're removing the tedium involved in getting to the only fun part available in crafting... making the final product and selling it to the players</p><p>All those things you talk about in your pretty little speech... all those things have intermedium fun involved in them. You can't pinpoint a single fun aspect about each one because I know plenty of people who get their jollies off in the organization of a good raid, or people who enjoyed a dungeon enough to turn off their combat exp so they could spend some more time there. But crafting... there isn't any intermedium fun in crafting outside of the actual leveling up part.</p><p>But hey, if you want to spend an hour making builds so you can do a writ, that's fine by me.</p>

[kenm]

<div></div><p>Fighting monsters is just as boring as crafting.  In fact, the crafting system is just a hacked up battle system.  You stand in front of something and spam skills, that's real hard.  The current system limits how fast final products can be churned out, makes sense, and actually has a feeling of accomplishment when working on a multi-step recipe.  I honestly don't see how throwing a bunch of assorted junk into a replicator and spamming skills to make final items in just a fraction of the time as it does now makes crafting more fun, much less has any ounce of logic behind it.  Instead of feeling like you've actually earned something by crafting it piece by piece, you'll feel like you were just given to it for no effort other than running outside and clicking on some rocks.  Well, I know I will at least.</p><p>Are you the kind of person that would rather a vender sell you the best equipment in the game for cheap instead of requiring effort to get it?  It's purposely tedious to obtain the good items because there's no difficulty, and making it where it can be done in a matter of seconds just makes it trivial.  In the world of a MMORPG something has to be either tedious or difficult, and there's nothing remotely difficult about the vast majority of MMORPGs on the market.  They live off of showing people progression from their effort put into it, if you remove the effort portion it has absolutely no content other than walking to a nearby Santa Claus that just gives you free items, levels, and plat so you can run around one-hitting everything.</p><p>Of course this means SOE could redo the system in order to make it take skill instead of tedium, but they're just going to settle for a WoW clone.  Free stuff with no effort, wee fun.</p>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><p>kenman, do you actually believe anything you've just written or are you talking for the hell of it? What you're talking about is like comparing a mouse to an elephant. The only thing about crafting, the only really fun thing about crafting, is making products and selling them to players. That's it. That's all it boils down to. The leveling process is tedious and mind-numbingly boring and all you have to do is listen to the majority of players who've said, in this very thread, that they spend more time watching movies and the television than actually paying attention to the game while they're crafting.</p><p>They're removing the tedium involved in getting to the only fun part available in crafting... making the final product and selling it to the players</p><p>All those things you talk about in your pretty little speech... all those things have intermedium fun involved in them. You can't pinpoint a single fun aspect about each one because I know plenty of people who get their jollies off in the organization of a good raid, or people who enjoyed a dungeon enough to turn off their combat exp so they could spend some more time there. But crafting... there isn't any intermedium fun in crafting outside of the actual leveling up part.</p><hr></blockquote>That's your viewpoint and you seem to be blind to that of people who craft primarily. They do exist you know. I find instances dead boring after my first run through one, where's the fun in killing the same mobs over and over and generally seeing the same crap drop? I also find grinding exceptionally boring but there aren't enough quests to level up off, so you're forced to do it at some point if you want to level. Where's the fun in camping the same spot, killing the same mobs, for hours on end. I find these things mindnumbing, you know people who find it enjoyable. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that there are people who enjoy crafting?<span><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<div></div><p>But hey, if you want to spend an hour making builds so you can do a writ, that's fine by me.</p><hr></blockquote>Apparently it's not fine by you, because you're advocating a system that blatantly trivialises crafting and diminishes any sense of satisfaction a crafter may get from it.</span></span></div>

[ChrisRay]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I dont think he said people cant enjoy crafting. However he is saying. It will make crafting more enjoyable and make it more accessible to those who were turned off by the sub combines in the past. Personally I think opening up crafting and making it more accessible is a good thing. Will this cause the current crafters more competition? Probably. But I love good competition. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I dont see how its gonna make the results of crafting any less satisfactory. Unless Sony really screws up and makes the world/game drops much better and more available. Something I dont see happening.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ChrisRay on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 AM</span></p>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChrisRay wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>I dont think he said people cant enjoy crafting. However he is saying. It will make crafting more enjoyable and make it more accessible to those who were turned off by the sub combines in the past. Personally I think opening up crafting and making it more accessible is a good thing. Will this cause the current crafters more competition? Probably. But I love good competition. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I dont see how its gonna make the results of crafting any less satisfactory. Unless Sony really screws up and makes the world/game drops much better and more available. Something I dont see happening.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ChrisRay on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My point is, tedium to one person may be enjoyment to another. Ruining other people's enjoyment to attempt to cater to others who obviously have little inclination to craft is wrong. Maybe they should remove the tedium of killing mobs for quests and just let me collect my reward from the questgiver after a token amount of time. I find it boring that I need to kill x amount of mobs that I have killed hundreds of before to attain an item. Same principle. I find it boring, others may find it fun. Doesn't mean it should be trivialised so that I can attain something others are willing to work harder for.In the end, people who craft do so because they have the desire to further their character or to create items that they or others can use. People who don't craft, don't because they obviously do not have the same drive. You can blame subcombines all you want, but if you really wanted to craft, they wouldn't stop you.The trivialisation of the system even goes 1 step further than what they did in EQ1. Even when they brought in that interface to reduce clicks, you still had to do intermediate combines for the more difficult recipes. This is just wham, bam, thank you maam.Btw, I wouldn't be so sure about that last bit. In EQ1, some crafted items were actually usable for a while compared to items you would get from xp'ing. After a while, dropped items just blew crafted right out of the water. The way things are going, we're pretty much being fast-tracked to the same situation.</span></div>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mastercheft wrote:Just a question to the devs and game designers. not realy to any common players. (but there will always be a couple non-dev players that will reply because of some high horse issue.)Why are you making such dramatic changes to classes?and even more important.Why are you making such dramatic changes to crafting.Crafting was perfect the way it is.If i could change change anything, i would change cross over counters to use the 10% power instead of 15%.Thats all.But you're changing everything. The entire way the game is played.I just want to know why?<font color="#cc0066">This game isnt in beta anymore.</font> people are paying hard earned money. And you just mess with us and your minds?just..Why?<div></div><hr></blockquote>MMO's are in a never ending beta. It's just after a certain time people have to start paying to play the beta(aka subscription). No updates or new content would ever be added if the the game was out of beta.

[Antheli]

<div></div><p>I wonder how many people are opposed to the streamling of the Crafting system simply because it threatens their niche' within the game?</p><p>If crafting becomes a simpler process, more people will be inclined to craft.  More crafters equals less monopoly.  Less monopoly equals less gold in crafter's pockets.  For me more crafters equals greater access to player-made items at more reasonable prices.</p>

[ChrisRay]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChrisRay wrote:I dont think he said people cant enjoy crafting. However he is saying. It will make crafting more enjoyable and make it more accessible to those who were turned off by the sub combines in the past. Personally I think opening up crafting and making it more accessible is a good thing. Will this cause the current crafters more competition? Probably. But I love good competition. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I dont see how its gonna make the results of crafting any less satisfactory. Unless Sony really screws up and makes the world/game drops much better and more available. Something I dont see happening.<p>Message Edited by ChrisRay on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My point is, tedium to one person may be enjoyment to another. Ruining other people's enjoyment to attempt to cater to others who obviously have little inclination to craft is wrong. Maybe they should remove the tedium of killing mobs for quests and just let me collect my reward from the questgiver after a token amount of time. I find it boring that I need to kill x amount of mobs that I have killed hundreds of before to attain an item. Same principle. I find it boring, others may find it fun. Doesn't mean it should be trivialised so that I can attain something others are willing to work harder for.<font color="#6666cc"><b>Who are you to say people have little inclination to craft? Under the current system? Maybe. Under a different system that they'd find more enjoyable. Its perfectly possible that there are other implementations which could improve their enjoyment. People I knew said they'd "never" play EQ 1 because the game was boring to them. But are now playing EQ 2. Is that because they had little inclination to play MMORPG? Or simply they didnt like the gameplay mechanics that EQ 1 offered but do enjoy EQ 2's game mechanics? Its the exact same concept here. People here may want to craft. But simply wont under the current system. This also has the potential to open up gameplay aspects to players who didnt like the old system. I have a hard time believing that current crafters will stop crafting because of this.</b></font>In the end, people who craft do so because they have the desire to further their character or to create items that they or others can use. People who don't craft, don't because they obviously do not have the same drive. You can blame subcombines all you want, but if you really wanted to craft, they wouldn't stop you.<font color="#6666cc"><b>Your right. If I really wanted to craft. And really desired to I would do it. Under the same token. If I really wanted too shoot a nail through my hand. I'm sure I would find the means too. Under the current system. I have had no desire to tradeskill on any of my alts other than my main because the system is tedious and unfun to me. </b></font>The trivialisation of the system even goes 1 step further than what they did in EQ1. Even when they brought in that interface to reduce clicks, you still had to do intermediate combines for the more difficult recipes. This is just wham, bam, thank you maam.Btw, I wouldn't be so sure about that last bit. In EQ1, some crafted items were actually usable for a while compared to items you would get from xp'ing. After a while, dropped items just blew crafted right out of the water. The way things are going, we're pretty much being fast-tracked to the same situation.<font color="#663399"></font><font color="#6666cc"></font><font color="#6666cc"><b>Maybe a few. But its nothing compared to EQ 2's crafting.  EQ 2's crafting system is very much intertwined with the rest of the game. If you arent harvesting or bringing in rares and communicating with others. You at a serious disadvantage in this game. Is crafting required? No. But having crafting friends the ability to harvest and do tradeskills give you some serious advantages over those who prefer not too. EQ 1's never was comparable to this. And WoW certainly isnt either. </b></font></span></div><hr></blockquote></span><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>I wonder how many people are opposed to the streamling of the Crafting system simply because it threatens their niche' within the game?</p><p>If crafting becomes a simpler process, more people will be inclined to craft.  More crafters equals less monopoly.  Less monopoly equals less gold in crafter's pockets.  For me more crafters equals greater access to player-made items at more reasonable prices.</p><font color="#6666cc"><b>I have a strong hunch this is a huge part of why some people are against this change. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b></font><p></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p></p><span></span></div><p>Message Edited by ChrisRay on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:42 AM</span></p>

[-Aonein-]

<div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:Although the hardcore players are a minority. IMO, I'd actually like it if there were less hardcore players. Thing is, they pretty much ruin the game. If you don't get much time to play, your one guarantee if that whatever you do, a herdcore player will already have done. I've seen people go from level 10 to level 50 in a matter of weeks while I struggle up to 40.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Had to laugh at this one.</p><p>On a side note you will find that majority of the poeple are complaining about this issue because its going to make crafting even easier so you dont see the same people controling the market on each server. Problem here is they all band up together and have a little syndicate and if you dont join them and try to under cut them, they will goto all the trouble of under cutting you to the point that everyone loses money just to force you out of the game, i mean crafting and selling on the broker game.</p><p>Now, i dont believe that we need less hard core players, i dont think the game has enough to be honest let alone casual players, but lets look at it this way, crafters dont complain when the majority of their customers is the minority ( hard cores ) do they? Could this be the real reason people are getting their knickers in a knot because i dont find anything challeneging about todays crafting system, i would rather kill the same mob over and over again 1 million times before you find me couped up in the same room making the same items over and over again 1 million times, whats the difference you ask? WHen i get sick of one zone i can goto another, or kill different mobs, or go on a raid, or do instances.</p><p>How many craft zones are raidable? How many different craft zones can you goto if you get sick of the sight of the one your in now? How many different things can you make before you have made the same stuff 20+ times? Can you mentor down to get experience from craftable items you havent made yet and wish to get xp from them?</p><p>Answer to all these is no, so no sorry i dont find anything challenging about todays crafting system and i find it to be more or less tedious then anything.</p></div>

[Attrael]

<span><blockquote><hr>mastercheft wrote:Just a question to the devs and game designers. not realy to any common players. (but there will always be a couple non-dev players that will reply because of some high horse issue.)Why are you making such dramatic changes to classes?and even more important.Why are you making such dramatic changes to crafting.Crafting was perfect the way it is.If i could change change anything, i would change cross over counters to use the 10% power instead of 15%.Thats all.But you're changing everything. The entire way the game is played.I just want to know why?This game isnt in beta anymore. people are paying hard earned money. And you just mess with us and your minds?just..Why?<div></div><hr></blockquote>They are doing this because SOE execs secretly have some ownership in Sigil and are trying drive their playerbase away entirely over to Vanguard so their Sigil investment pays off. RIP EverQuest II, 2004-2006</span><div></div>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChrisRay wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><div><span><font color="#6666cc"><b>Who are you to say people have little inclination to craft? Under the current system? Maybe. Under a different system that they'd find more enjoyable. Its perfectly possible that there are other implementations which could improve their enjoyment. People I knew said they'd "never" play EQ 1 because the game was boring to them. But are now playing EQ 2. Is that because they had little inclination to play MMORPG? Or simply they didnt like the gameplay mechanics that EQ 1 offered but do enjoy EQ 2's game mechanics? Its the exact same concept here. People here may want to craft. But simply wont under the current system. This also has the potential to open up gameplay aspects to players who didnt like the old system. I have a hard time believing that current crafters will stop crafting because of this.<font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc3300"><font color="#cc0000">I can say they have little inclination to craft because they choose not to. Regardless of their reasoning in not crafting, they obviously don't care for crafting at all. Yes it is possible there are other implementations that could allow them to enjoy crafting more, but this one is extreme and affects current crafter oriented players greatly. You would be surprised about current crafters stopping. A lot of crafters now fail to see the point in continuing now that every man and his monkey can easily go and make their own stuff. A select few may quit but I'd say you underestimate the amount that will just leave crafting as is.</font></font></b></font><font color="#6666cc"><b>Your right. If I really wanted to craft. And really desired to I would do it. Under the same token. If I really wanted too shoot a nail through my hand. I'm sure I would find the means too. Under the current system. I have had no desire to tradeskill on any of my alts other than my main because the system is tedious and unfun to me.<font color="#cc0000">Your nail analogy would apply if you found it enjoyable. People find crafting enjoyable, others think it's boring and don't bother with it. Why cater to those who don't bother and take away from people who invest their time on it.</font></b></font><font color="#663399"></font><font color="#6666cc"></font><font color="#6666cc"><b>Maybe a few. But its nothing compared to EQ 2's crafting.  EQ 2's crafting system is very much intertwined with the rest of the game. If you arent harvesting or bringing in rares and communicating with others. You at a serious disadvantage in this game. Is crafting required? No. But having crafting friends the ability to harvest and do tradeskills give you some serious advantages over those who prefer not too. EQ 1's never was comparable to this. And WoW certainly isnt either.<font color="#cc0000">It is slowly but steadily going the way of the dodo. The way they made Fabled drop all over the place in DoF is just the beginning. Any casual player can attain these items. They have already told us that crafted legendary items in KoS will not improve greatly on their DoF counterparts while Fabled will still enjoy the same advantages. I won't be surprised if Fabled is even more commonplace in KoS than DoF.</font></b></font></span></div><hr></blockquote></span><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>I wonder how many people are opposed to the streamling of the Crafting system simply because it threatens their niche' within the game?</p><p>If crafting becomes a simpler process, more people will be inclined to craft.  More crafters equals less monopoly.  Less monopoly equals less gold in crafter's pockets.  For me more crafters equals greater access to player-made items at more reasonable prices.</p><font color="#6666cc"><b>I have a strong hunch this is a huge part of why some people are against this change. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#cc0000">I'm opposed to the streamlining because it's a complete trivialisation of the crafting system, which is something that I personally enjoy in this game. Yes, I make some money out of crafting. Maybe I make 5-10g from a T6 combine. I have plenty of competition around that keeps our prices as low as any of us can go without losing money.You may think you'll be getting better prices on crafted gear but think about it for a minute and maybe you'll realise that crafters do not set the market prices, it is the harvesters that do. Nothing in this change affects harvesters, only crafters. Harvesters know this and they'll be rubbing their hands at the potential for jacking up their prices to take advantage of the extra crafters.</font></b></font><hr size="2" width="100%"></div><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[Bor]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:Although the hardcore players are a minority. IMO, I'd actually like it if there were less hardcore players. Thing is, they pretty much ruin the game. If you don't get much time to play, your one guarantee if that whatever you do, a herdcore player will already have done. I've seen people go from level 10 to level 50 in a matter of weeks while I struggle up to 40.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Had to laugh at this one.</p><p>On a side note you will find that majority of the poeple are complaining about this issue because its going to make crafting even easier so you dont see the same people controling the market on each server. Problem here is they all band up together and have a little syndicate and if you dont join them and try to under cut them, they will goto all the trouble of under cutting you to the point that everyone loses money just to force you out of the game, i mean crafting and selling on the broker game.</p><p>Now, i dont believe that we need less hard core players, i dont think the game has enough to be honest let alone casual players, but lets look at it this way, crafters dont complain when the majority of their customers is the minority ( hard cores ) do they? Could this be the real reason people are getting their knickers in a knot because i dont find anything challeneging about todays crafting system, i would rather kill the same mob over and over again 1 million times before you find me couped up in the same room making the same items over and over again 1 million times, whats the difference you ask? WHen i get sick of one zone i can goto another, or kill different mobs, or go on a raid, or do instances.</p><p>How many craft zones are raidable? How many different craft zones can you goto if you get sick of the sight of the one your in now? How many different things can you make before you have made the same stuff 20+ times? Can you mentor down to get experience from craftable items you havent made yet and wish to get xp from them?</p><p>Answer to all these is no, so no sorry i dont find anything challenging about todays crafting system and i find it to be more or less tedious then anything.</p></div><hr></blockquote>I had a bit of a chuckle at your post too. You kill the same mob over and over again, yet complain about making the same item over and over. Your reasoning is that you can go to a different zone and kill different mobs. You could've always made a different item if you were crafting. In the end, you find it fun to endlessly kill the same mobs and use the same spells/arts over and over and over and over and over again. Crafters do exactly the same thing, except they create items instead of killing things. Personally I think it's tedious to grind mobs like you seem to enjoy, but I don't judge your play preference or want changes that would suit me. I'm the opposite, I enjoy my crafting that you find tedious, yet people like you are the ones screaming for it to be changed.</span><div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Attrael wrote:<span></span></p><p><span>They are doing this because SOE execs secretly have some ownership in Sigil and are trying drive their playerbase away entirely over to Vanguard so their Sigil investment pays off. RIP EverQuest II, 2004-2006</p></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Love the sarcasm, it was sarcasm wasn't it?</p><p>I heard the same 'Combat changes are gonna kill EQ2'. Hmm combat changes are why I and many others came back to the game. The crafting changes are just going to make more crafters. Sure a few loot farming crafters are going to get upset that they can't get away with charging a plat for a level 20 Adept3 anymore but oh well. A minority will be upset, the majority will be releived that the price gouging may, just may, ease up a bit. I don't want to have to loot farm DoF just so I can equip my alts with usefull equipment and spells, nevermind my main. I'm level 57 and am lucky to have 2 plats to my name at any time because I'm pouring every penny I get into buying a single upgrade on equipment. I don't think I have a single spell above Adept 1 other than those my level gets me to master 2. The loot I get from adventuring never sells for more than 25 gold if I get one of the rarer collectibles, makes it hard to pay 6 plats for an Adept 3 or 12 plats for a monk master 1 spell. If crafting wasn't so mind-numbingly tedious I'd craft, and so would many others. Its funny the crafters tend to charge a ton but to make a ton you have to be a crafter, or farm harvests to sell raws to crafters. Crafters complain about the costs of raws, well its a vicious cycle because the non-crafters have to have a way to pay for the crafted goods.</p>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><p>Love the sarcasm, it was sarcasm wasn't it?</p><p>I heard the same 'Combat changes are gonna kill EQ2'. Hmm combat changes are why I and many others came back to the game. The crafting changes are just going to make more crafters. Sure a few loot farming crafters are going to get upset that they can't get away with charging a plat for a level 20 Adept3 anymore but oh well. A minority will be upset, the majority will be releived that the price gouging may, just may, ease up a bit. I don't want to have to loot farm DoF just so I can equip my alts with usefull equipment and spells, nevermind my main. I'm level 57 and am lucky to have 2 plats to my name at any time because I'm pouring every penny I get into buying a single upgrade on equipment. I don't think I have a single spell above Adept 1 other than those my level gets me to master 2. The loot I get from adventuring never sells for more than 25 gold if I get one of the rarer collectibles, makes it hard to pay 6 plats for an Adept 3 or 12 plats for a monk master 1 spell. If crafting wasn't so mind-numbingly tedious I'd craft, and so would many others. Its funny the crafters tend to charge a ton but to make a ton you have to be a crafter, or farm harvests to sell raws to crafters. Crafters complain about the costs of raws, well its a vicious cycle because the non-crafters have to have a way to pay for the crafted goods.</p><hr></blockquote>Wow, 6 plat for a T6 adept iii? I feel for you. They go for 1-1.5 on my server. Your server sucks bigtime.As for us crafters complaining about cost of raws, the cycle is all under the control of the harvesters, crafters are just along for the ride. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. If rare prices drop, crafters (assuming there's any sort of competition) can and will drop their prices accordingly by undercutting each other. We're not in the business of making ourselves broke so don't expect us to drop prices when harvesters are charging ridiculous amounts.Maybe my server is just special but there is competition for virtually every trade in tier6 and when the rare prices go down, the crafted ones drop as well. Same happens when they go up.</span></div>

[Vulking]

<div>_____________________</div><div>Moontayle wrote:</div><div><p>Being a level 60 Weaponsmith I feel I can safely offer my opinion on the tradeskill matter. But it comes in the form of a question...</p><p>What is the difference between making a Longsword that takes x amount of resources and 4 steps to complete and a Longsword that takes the same x resources and 1 step to complete?</p><p>The answer is time. That is the only difference between the two. <strong><font color="#ff0000">WRONG, another difference is the amount of immersive content.</font></strong>The end result is the same. <font color="#ff0000"><strong>NO</strong> <strong>the end product is the same not the result</strong></font>.  Now, would <em>you</em> rather spend five minutes getting ready to do that final combine? I always thought that the process was overly tedious and the fact that almost every tradeskill class had some sort of community spreadsheet so they could keep track of what builds each final combine needed was rediculous to say the least. Blackguard is right. The <em>fun</em> of tradeskills is making the product itself, not the steps leading up to it. <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Good GOD! Have you never heard the expression " its not the destination that counts but the journey to get there"?</strong></font></p><p>So why is it a problem that they're boiling it down to the actual fun part of the process? <strong><font color="#ff0000">Because the end result replaces what you consider tedium with boredom.</font></strong></p><p>_____________________</p><p> </p><p><font color="#66cc00"><strong>Should they replace some of the tedious parts of crafting?  Absolutely!  We are not totally different in this belief.  But, you would have them take the immersive qualities of crafting, the roleplay aspect, whatever, completely out of the game and replace it with a vending machine approach to crafting.</strong></font></p></div>

[ChrisRay]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>ChrisRay wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><div><span><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc3300"><font color="#cc0000">I can say they have little inclination to craft because they choose not to. Regardless of their reasoning in not crafting, they obviously don't care for crafting at all. Yes it is possible there are other implementations that could allow them to enjoy crafting more, but this one is extreme and affects current crafter oriented players greatly. You would be surprised about current crafters stopping. A lot of crafters now fail to see the point in continuing now that every man and his monkey can easily go and make their own stuff. A select few may quit but I'd say you underestimate the amount that will just leave crafting as is.<font color="#6666cc">Thats a bit presumptious. They probably do not wish to craft because they dislike the current crafting system. Not because they have no desire too. Let me give you another analogy. Alot of people would love to lose weight. But cant handle the tedium of a steady diet. That doesnt mean they dont desire to do it. You are comparing the will to act with the desire to do something. Which are two completely different things. </font><font color="#6666cc">I dont think I am underestimating anything to be perfectly honest. I feel these opinions being expressed here are melodramatic and over reactionary to something thats really not going to make a big difference to the outcome of items. As long as item influx is still controlled. Then rares will still be rares. And commons will still be commons. Its up to EQ 2 devs to control inflation and the rate which items leave the game. Does this mean there will be more competition? Absolutely. And I assuredly feel competition is a good thing. The only people it doesnt benefit are those who like to gouge the community.</font></font></font></b></font><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000">Your nail analogy would apply if you found it enjoyable. People find crafting enjoyable, others think it's boring and don't bother with it. Why cater to those who don't bother and take away from people who invest their time on it.<font color="#6666cc">My nail analogy is perfect. Some people "might" find driving a nail through there hand enjoyable. Some people might find crafting enjoyable. But not everyone does. If the new system makes crafting more enjoyable for the majority rather than the minority. I am all for it.</font></font></b></font><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000">It is slowly but steadily going the way of the dodo. The way they made Fabled drop all over the place in DoF is just the beginning. Any casual player can attain these items. They have already told us that crafted legendary items in KoS will not improve greatly on their DoF counterparts while Fabled will still enjoy the same advantages. I won't be surprised if Fabled is even more commonplace in KoS than DoF.<font color="#6666cc">This is exactly what I mean by over reactionary and melodramatic posts. Crafting is "Fine". Its an important part of the game and is very strongly relied upon. Especially from the more casual gamers who want their piece of the pie. I have spent 15pp alone this past 2 weeks getting Adept III's made and 35% of that fund was towards crafting fees. And all that money and time was required by crafting. </font></font></b></font></span></div><hr></blockquote></span><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000">I'm opposed to the streamlining because it's a complete trivialisation of the crafting system, which is something that I personally enjoy in this game. Yes, I make some money out of crafting. Maybe I make 5-10g from a T6 combine. I have plenty of competition around that keeps our prices as low as any of us can go without losing money.You may think you'll be getting better prices on crafted gear but think about it for a minute and maybe you'll realise that crafters do not set the market prices, it is the harvesters that do. Nothing in this change affects harvesters, only crafters. Harvesters know this and they'll be rubbing their hands at the potential for jacking up their prices to take advantage of the extra crafters.<font color="#6666cc">I dont neccasarily think I'll be getting a better price. I think there will be competition amongst crafters though for the best deals. Some will continue to keep their prices high and hope they sell. Some will drop their prices. Of course theres always going to be the issue of making more than you spend. This is a constant issue thats going to be there regardless of how the crafting system is implemented. And is really a non issue to this anyway.Besides. Nothing is preventing crafters from harvesting themselves. Or from people who complain about crafters from crafting themselves. Thats the entire idea of competition and economy. Some players will give better deals than others. And people will take advantage of that.  Giving players more accessible ways of doing the crafting system will open it up to more players. Some who want to rely on themselves for their items and skills. And others who want to try their hand at making money</font></font></b></font><hr size="2" width="100%"></div><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote></span></div><p>Message Edited by ChrisRay on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:29 AM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>I've seen cheaper Adept3 spells and combat arts, just not for monks. At least on my server (Faydark) monk gear and abilities are rare and highly priced. When I finally hit 57 not too long ago I was only the 23rd monk to hit that level on Faydark. The rares needed to make Adept3 spells sell for a lot on my server, I've not had ANY luck with T6 rares (I've gotten some lambents, one sclaed pelt which I had turned into a tunic for me then sold before attuning as I got a fabled from a raid run by my guild, and 1 cobalt in about 2 months of going after every ore, stone, and den I can get at). The few monk apells up on the brokers (usually there's none for anything over 50 other than a few Adept1s) they go for a lot because the few monks on the server high enough to use them all want them. I was looking for weapon and armor upgrades and leather(scaled pelt) armor was going for more than cobalt imbued half the time. The dual-wield weapons were also going for more than most cobalt weapons. Demand for monk gear is lower on Faydark than many other classes so what is there sells for a lot more.</p><p>This may not be true on all servers or for all classes, this is just what I've seen on teh server I play on and with my main. I've started alts and have seen outrageous pricing on crafted spell books for lower levels, obviously geared just to sell to alts of wealthy mains. The lowest price I could find on a Bloom Adept 1 for my fury was 15gold. My character didn't even have that much by the time he got the replacement to Bloom.</p><p>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.</p>

[Bor]

<div>Geez it's getting messy quoting all this <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><span><blockquote><div><span><blockquote><hr><div><span><blockquote><hr>ChrisRay wrote:<div><span><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc3300"><font color="#cc0000"><font color="#6666cc">Thats a bit presumptious. They probably do not wish to craft because they dislike the current crafting system. Not because they have no desire too. Let me give you another analogy. Alot of people would love to lose weight. But cant handle the tedium of a steady diet. That doesnt mean they dont desire to do it. You are comparing the will to act with the desire to do something.<font color="#cc0000">I don't think we're ever going to agree on this point. With that losing weight analogy, my opinion is that if they are not committed enough to even try to lose weight, then they have resigned themselves to their current state by default. Your opinion is that it should be easier for them so that the tedium/difficulty is lowered to below the threshold of their desire.</font> </font><font color="#6666cc">I dont think I am underestimating anything to be perfectly honest. I feel these opinions being expressed her are melodramatic and over reactionary to something thats really not going to make a big difference to the outcome of items. As long as item influx is still controlled. Then rares will still be rares. And commons will still be commons. Its up to EQ 2 devs to control inflation and the rate which items leave the game. Does this mean there will be more competition? Absolutely. And I assuredly feel competition is a good thing. The only people it doesnt benefit are those who like to gouge the community.<font color="#cc0000">Drastic changes are bound to incur reactions such as what is happening. It is only natural since people are trying to defend something that they feel strongly about. Otherwise we might as well resign ourselves to everything that happens to this game. It's true that we have no control over anything in this game but it doesn't mean we can't try.</font></font></font></font></b></font><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000"><font color="#6666cc">My nail analogy is perfect. Some people "might" find driving a nail through there hand enjoyable. Some people might find crafting enjoyable. But not everyone does. If the new system makes crafting more enjoyable for the majority rather than the minority. I am all for it.</font></font></b></font><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000"><font color="#cc0000">You assume that just by removing subs, you make it more enjoyable for people. Reducing tedium =/= increasing enjoyment. People who found it tedious will most likely still find it so, the way of performing combines stays the same but the number changes. However, people who found the current crafting system to their liking will be resigned to the 1 hit style that is being introduced.</font><font color="#6666cc">This is exactly what I mean by over reactionary and melodramatic posts. Crafting is "Fine". Its an important part of the game and is very strongly relied upon. Especially from the more casual gamers who want their piece of the pie. I have spent 15pp alone this past 2 weeks getting Adept III's made and 35% of that fund was towards crafting fees. And all that money and time was required by crafting.<font color="#cc0000">Ok, if crafting is fine. Why does it need an overhaul? I've addressed your crafting fees concern at the end.</font></font></font></b></font></span></div><div><span></span><font color="#6666cc"><b><font color="#cc0000"><font color="#6666cc">I dont neccasarily think I'll be getting a better price. I think there will be competition amongst crafters though for the best deals. Some will continue to keep their prices high and hope they sell. Some will drop their prices. Of course theres always going to be the issue of making more than you spend. This is a constant issue thats going to be there regardless of how the crafting system is implemented. And is really a non issue to this anyway.Besides. Nothing is preventing crafters from harvesting themselves. Or from people who complain about crafters from crafting themselves. Thats the entire idea of competition and economy. Some players will give better deals than others. And people will take advantage of that.  Giving players more accessible ways of doing the crafting system will open it up to more players. Some who want to rely on themselves for their items and skills. And others who want to try their hand at making money</font></font><font color="#cc0000">Ahh, here is another topic entirely. I hate harvesting, I find it boring and pointless. The only reason I ever do it is because harvesters charge extortionist prices for common harvests. Why isn't it being changed to be more enjoyable? Why can't I click on a node once and it harvests it all automatically? Why do I have to get strings of Nothing Found when a node is apparently trivial to me?The other thing you mention is opening up crafting to people who don't currently. I fail to see why it should be made easier. I do understand you want it more enjoyable but surely there is another way than "dumbing it down" to achieve this goal. In the end, if everyone crafts and makes their own items, what is the point of crafting existing in the first place. You might as well just have armor quests at every tier. I am really still wondering why crafting has been the only aspect of this game that has been nailed and reduced to a pathetic mess. I guess it's only a matter of time before the rest follow suit.</font></b></font><hr size="2" width="100%"></div><hr></blockquote>Something I just thought I'd add. It seems like a lot of servers have problems that others don't and it's obviously not a flaw with the crafting system but of the server communities themselves. I can only speak from personal experience and from what I know from my server is that there is no overinflated pricing going on vs the cost of rares. It seems that other servers have serious issues though. 35% of your money to crafting fees is ridiculous, I've never had to pay more than 20% and that was when DoF was just released and there was only a couple of lvl 60 Tradeskillers.</span></div></blockquote></span></div></blockquote></span></div>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.<hr></blockquote>Yes I'm a crafter and I don't blame harvesters for anything. They charge what they charge, but my prices change accordingly so before you all go jumping up and down screaming at your local crafter, think about why his prices are as they are. Obviously some crafters want more pure profit from their items than others. There will always be some that are greedier than others. It's just how things are.</span></div>

[Vulking]

<div>__________________</div><div>Borte wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Something I just thought I'd add. It seems like a lot of servers have problems that others don't and it's obviously not a flaw with the crafting system but of the server communities themselves. I can only speak from personal experience and from what I know from my server is that there is no overinflated pricing going on vs the cost of rares. It seems that other servers have serious issues though. 35% of your money to crafting fees is ridiculous, I've never had to pay more than 20% and that was when DoF was just released and there was only a couple of lvl 60 Tradeskillers.</div><div>_________________</div><div> </div><div><strong><font color="#66cc00">BINGO!!</font></strong></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.<hr></blockquote>Yes I'm a crafter and I don't blame harvesters for anything. They charge what they charge, but my prices change accordingly so before you all go jumping up and down screaming at your local crafter, think about why his prices are as they are. Obviously some crafters want more pure profit from their items than others. There will always be some that are greedier than others. It's just how things are.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Its nice to see you are reasonable. Luckily so are my guildmates who craft, I got my scaled pristine imbued tunic for 10g from a guildmate (well 10g and the pelt that I'd harvested since pelts were going for around 3plats at the time). I'm just saying the blanket excuse that crafters charge what they do because of harvesters charging too much doesn't ring true on Faydark. THere the raws with the exception of rares are almost always selling for under 1g a piece, often under 1s and for ores and most t6's for under 25c. The finsihed products from those raws though are selling for 50gold +. There's no way that 1copper for an indium cluster justifies 50gold for a pristine shoulderplate (not even imbued or requiring any rares).

[Anlari]

<div></div><p>It boils down to the fact that crafters are a vast minority in the game.  SOE wants to attract a large number of people to keep sinking their time, and thus their subscription fee, into the game.  So, they open up crafting to where they feel it will be enjoyable to more of the playerbase then it currently is.  If you lose 10 people to gain 15, then good investment.  SOE is in the buisness of making money, which means appealing to the majority most of the time.  If you don't like killing monsters over and over, I would venture you chose the wrong genre of game to subscribe to. </p><p>Currently, I don't craft in EQ2 because I detest the system.  I will likely try it after the changes.  I wouldn't quit playing with crafting either way, but I deffinatly have enver been bored enough to persue the crafting as it is now.</p>

[NappyOne]

<div></div><div><font color="#ccffff"></font></div><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">Anyone here ever kitted a sweater? <span> </span>I have.<span>  </span>With practice, you can actually knit while watching TV. <span> </span>Anyway, well, never mind.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">I can level grind while watching TV too, and easier than when crafting. <span> </span>Just find a field of low greens, target, turn on auto attack, wait a while, rinse, repeat. Sure it takes a while to move that exp bar, but I won’t have to pay attention while doing it. <span> </span>And I can even change zones if I get tired of the graphics on the giant rats I have been grinding away on.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">SOE changes things drastically all the time.<span>  </span>Giving a nod to the crafting side by keeping player made items desirable relative to dropped items through quality and rarity presents a confining limit to coming expansions and updates. <span> </span>By trivializing crafting in this way, what makes anyone think SOE will have the discipline to hold the lid on dropped items any longer? <span> </span>When those player made items hit the market and everyone has the best player made items on all their characters and alts, a clamor will arise over lack of variety. <span> </span>It will be then that crafting itself can be trivialized.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">The first two expansions have upped the level cap and been designed only for high level characters. <span> </span>The next expansion will cater to mid or low to mid level characters. <span> </span>Unless player made items can be trivialized, SOE cannot attract play to the new zones in order to justify the new expansion. <span> </span>They do, after all, have much more experience at balancing lower level encounters than they have at creating new high level encounters. <span> </span>Besides, they can’t go on upping the level cap forever.<span>  </span>Creating new crafting content in balance with the new drops is just not good corporate economy.<span>  </span>After all, they tried a new crafting system and, given the low interest in it and the coming changes, it must have been a major financial disappointment to SOE.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">The current crafting population is small with respect to the entire population.<span>  </span>SOE invests disproportionate resources to maintain crafting.<span>  </span>Once crafting is trivial, they can redirect those resources elsewhere.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">Do not be deceived.<span>  </span>SOE does have a vision. <span> </span>They just don’t dare directly tell us what it is. <span> </span>That would be bad PR.</font></p><p><font color="#ccffff" size="3" face="Times New Roman">Cacophonix</font></p>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><p>it's funny, because i love the game.</p><p>I think that, if you play this game it's you love it. But, SOE is always trying to make more money. Is it bad? yes. Because it's not the game we bought. Stop saying that a mmo is always in beta, and just look at WoW (as SOE do). I remember the time when there were 3 Antonica, 3 Steppes.. The people who left won't come back with that. They left as it was too easy ! They left for WoW, yes, and you know why? Because the don't want to play in a beta.</p><p>you can say i'm a whiner. I just remember what was EQII on the paper, that's all. And, I really don't know if i must cry or laugh.</p><p>And, 'people who aren't happy are a minority' , 'people who will leave for Vanguard are a minority', 'people who were satisfied with the craft are a minority' ... As you say, SOE wants $$, and when they'll be just a 'minority' of fan boys on the server, they will stop.</p><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div><p>It boils down to the fact that crafters are a vast minority in the game.  SOE wants to attract a large number of people to keep sinking their time, and thus their subscription fee, into the game.  So, they open up crafting to where they feel it will be enjoyable to more of the playerbase then it currently is.  If you lose 10 people to gain 15, then good investment.  SOE is in the buisness of making money, which means appealing to the majority most of the time.  If you don't like killing monsters over and over, I would venture you chose the wrong genre of game to subscribe to. </p><hr></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>SOE, it's too late. Casual are, and will go on WoW, and hardcore will go on Vanguard. So try to keep us, try to listen to us.</p><p> </p><p>For people who think i'm a whiner, i can understand, but please keep in mind that I love this game, and that's why i'm surprised.</p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>That's funny I'm a casual player (at least I think so, I hop on do some stuff while doing other stuff, hardly ever raid outside of for quests, still havent' gotten a character to 60, don't xp grind, etc). I detest WoW and won't play it again. I got to 40 there and just felt the game was too shallow and cartoony. The Warcraft feel is great for Warcraft but not for an MMO in my opinion. DOn't think I'll try Vanguard. Was thinking of trying DDO but after the experiences I've already had with their support just over my beta invite I won't touch the game. At least Sony replies to my emails and /petitions!</p><p>True its not the same exact game as it was at launch, but no MMO is after a year. EQ1 looked and felt different after the expansions came out, AC and AC2 changed as time went on. WoW is even different from launch and will change more with their expansion coming out. MMO's aren't always in beta, but any MMO that doesn't die off evolves and changes. They add features, remove or change stuff that people don't like (especially if its stuff that is listed as reasons why a player cancelled their subscription when they take the survey) or is broken/unbalanced, and add new content (quests, zones, loot, etc.).</p><p>The changes in EQ2 are what brought me back to the game, and are what are keeping me playing the game. I may even finally get a crafting class over 20 with the crafting changes (I don't think the change is perfect and maybe being simplified a bit too much but I don't think its being ruined and instead will feel more rewarding to me at least, the current system isn't, in the same way as grinding out three DoF instances every day to level isn't rewarding and why I don't do it).</p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div>I disagree with you casuals will not go to WOW because just by reading their forums you can see that as soon as a casual hits 60 or soon to be 70 in WOW its raid central and nothing for casuals.  Hell they are accusing the devs in WOW for copying EQ I.  So here you are complaining that SOE is copying WOW.  Guess what I agree all you hardcore people may leave for Vanguard and it may be the game for you.  I hope your happy either here or there.  Thats really all that matter isn't it.  But I bet from what I've read in Vanguard some may come back because it may just be too hardcore for ya.<blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><p>it's funny, because i love the game.</p><p>I think that, if you play this game it's you love it. But, SOE is always trying to make more money. Is it bad? yes. Because it's not the game we bought. Stop saying that a mmo is always in beta, and just look at WoW (as SOE do). I remember the time when there were 3 Antonica, 3 Steppes.. The people who left won't come back with that. They left as it was too easy ! They left for WoW, yes, and you know why? Because the don't want to play in a beta.</p><p>you can say i'm a whiner. I just remember what was EQII on the paper, that's all. And, I really don't know if i must cry or laugh.</p><p>And, 'people who aren't happy are a minority' , 'people who will leave for Vanguard are a minority', 'people who were satisfied with the craft are a minority' ... As you say, SOE wants $$, and when they'll be just a 'minority' of fan boys on the server, they will stop.</p><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<div></div><p>It boils down to the fact that crafters are a vast minority in the game.  SOE wants to attract a large number of people to keep sinking their time, and thus their subscription fee, into the game.  So, they open up crafting to where they feel it will be enjoyable to more of the playerbase then it currently is.  If you lose 10 people to gain 15, then good investment.  SOE is in the buisness of making money, which means appealing to the majority most of the time.  If you don't like killing monsters over and over, I would venture you chose the wrong genre of game to subscribe to. </p><hr></blockquote><p>ROFL</p><p>SOE, it's too late. Casual are, and will go on WoW, and hardcore will go on Vanguard. So try to keep us, try to listen to us.</p><p> </p><p>For people who think i'm a whiner, i can understand, but please keep in mind that I love this game, and that's why i'm surprised.</p><hr></blockquote>

[-Aonein-]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.<hr></blockquote>Yes I'm a crafter and I don't blame harvesters for anything. They charge what they charge, but my prices change accordingly so before you all go jumping up and down screaming at your local crafter, think about why his prices are as they are. Obviously some crafters want more pure profit from their items than others. There will always be some that are greedier than others. It's just how things are.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh i get it now, a Artisan cant go and harvest his own raws can he, he is forced to buy them of the broker.........makes alot of sense :smileyindifferent:.</p><p>As for crafting the same stuff over and over again as compaired to adventurering and killing stuff over and over again, the difference is which i think you misunderstood my post is simple:</p><ol><li>How many quests do adventurers get compaired to artisans, including writs?</li><li>How many different zones can adventurers explore compaired to artisans?</li><li>How many raid zones can artisans get together and raid?</li><li>How much benefit does a artisan get from mentoring another artisan?</li><li>How many Tier 6 artisan writs are there to do?</li><li>How many recipes have been left out of the game that still havent been put in?</li></ol><p>I could go on and on, but i think you see my point that the current system of crafting is a very more then tedious idea. If you think that the current system is challenging, then more power to you, but like has already been pointed out, crafters fill the minority of the game and some take advantage of this and charge outrageous prices on the broker and monoplize the market, some servers like Everfrost for example when it comes to jewelery, there is a select few people that basically own the market, if you can make them cheaper but still make a profit and undercut them, they will send you a in game mail asking you to join them to help control that part of the market and yes you are offered a cut of the money, if you dont answer them ( like my wife didnt ) they will under cut not only you but themselves so NO ONE is making money just to force you out, its not going to worry them because im 100% sure the same people control other aspects of the market as well ie: Alchemy, Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing and Food / Drink basically all the essentials that a player needs in his / her day to day gaming life, so if they do have to undercut people to force them out of the game, game as in broker battles, then they still make thier money from the other sections of the market they control.</p><p>Just go have a look on your brokers and look up stuff that people use alot of, Food / Drink, Posions / Potions etc etc, and see how many pages of the same persons name you will see selling stuff and im 100% sure that if your the type of artisan who can put in enough time to make hundreds of the one item and splash the market with the items, you will get so much hate mail its not funny.</p><p>Now i agree that this change will get alot of people into crafting, and no i dont craft because of the way the current system is set up which has nothing to do with sub combines, i like that aspect of the game but they could some how make it more enticing instead of clicking the same 3 buttons over and over again in the same room over and over again for not only weeks but months, its not tedious, its depressing.</p><p>All i know is the current artisan population is what mainly effects the ecomony on each server, those with light artisan poplulations you will notice high prices on those servers, those with high populations will notice lower prices but the price war is alot more cut throat, it has nothing at all to do with how much people charge for raws on the market, because the people who are hard core artisans harvest their own stuff to minimize on cost and maximize profit, seeing that the minority of hard core players give artisans a burst of cash flow each time a expasion is released, over time casual players eventually make them more money, until the next expasion is released.</p><p>Anyway im getting way of track now, and im glad this change is coming out, i will miss the sub combine feature though but im sure Provisioners wont be missing it :smileytongue:.</p><p> </p>

[Bor]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.<hr></blockquote>Yes I'm a crafter and I don't blame harvesters for anything. They charge what they charge, but my prices change accordingly so before you all go jumping up and down screaming at your local crafter, think about why his prices are as they are. Obviously some crafters want more pure profit from their items than others. There will always be some that are greedier than others. It's just how things are.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh i get it now, a Artisan cant go and harvest his own raws can he, he is forced to buy them of the broker.........makes alot of sense :smileyindifferent:.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">No, we can't. Speaking from personal experience, even if I spent every minute of every day that I don't spend crafting on harvesting, Istill will never have enough rares to keep up with the rate I sell items. Hence, people like myself are forced to resort to the broker. Sure you can go and try to harvest all your rares and improve your profit margins, personally I find harvesting mind numbingly boring. Funny that some actually enjoy doing it.</font></p><p>As for crafting the same stuff over and over again as compaired to adventurering and killing stuff over and over again, the difference is which i think you misunderstood my post is simple:</p><ol><li>How many quests do adventurers get compaired to artisans, including writs?</li><li>How many different zones can adventurers explore compaired to artisans?</li><li>How many raid zones can artisans get together and raid?</li><li>How much benefit does a artisan get from mentoring another artisan?</li><li>How many Tier 6 artisan writs are there to do?</li><li>How many recipes have been left out of the game that still havent been put in?</li></ol><font color="#cc0000">There is no difference in adventuring. You kill different mobs in the same way. It's just a new model, but the same battle over and over again. Points 5 and 6 are a perfect example of SOE neglecting the crafting community. They just don't care at all, they'd rather shove the entire community in a corner and not have to deal with them ever again. Tier 6 writs have been missing for months, carpenter rare recipes never implemented. There is no reason for this. They could use the excuse that they have been spending time on this revamp. If that's true then why would every other artisan class start with t6 rare recipes when DoF was released and carpenters got zilch? Because they don't care. Which is the precise reason that a crafting community backlash will ultimately result in 0 response or change.</font><p>I could go on and on, but i think you see my point that the current system of crafting is a very more then tedious idea. If you think that the current system is challenging, then more power to you, but like has already been pointed out, crafters fill the minority of the game and some take advantage of this and charge outrageous prices on the broker and monoplize the market, some servers like Everfrost for example when it comes to jewelery, there is a select few people that basically own the market, if you can make them cheaper but still make a profit and undercut them, they will send you a in game mail asking you to join them to help control that part of the market and yes you are offered a cut of the money, if you dont answer them ( like my wife didnt ) they will under cut not only you but themselves so NO ONE is making money just to force you out, its not going to worry them because im 100% sure the same people control other aspects of the market as well ie: Alchemy, Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing and Food / Drink basically all the essentials that a player needs in his / her day to day gaming life, so if they do have to undercut people to force them out of the game, game as in broker battles, then they still make thier money from the other sections of the market they control.</p><p>Just go have a look on your brokers and look up stuff that people use alot of, Food / Drink, Posions / Potions etc etc, and see how many pages of the same persons name you will see selling stuff and im 100% sure that if your the type of artisan who can put in enough time to make hundreds of the one item and splash the market with the items, you will get so much hate mail its not funny.</p><font color="#cc0000">Funny cos I've never gotten a single piece of hatemail and I have dumped massive amounts of invis totems on the market since DoF changed them to actually be useful. I've undercut people who are selling items from virtually all tradeskills and haven't seen any sort of retaliation. Maybe they're trying to irk me with the silent treatment. OH NOES. Maybe you've got the Mafia running the Everfrost server.</font><p>Now i agree that this change will get alot of people into crafting, and no i dont craft because of the way the current system is set up which has nothing to do with sub combines, i like that aspect of the game but they could some how make it more enticing instead of clicking the same 3 buttons over and over again in the same room over and over again for not only weeks but months, its not tedious, its depressing.</p><p>All i know is the current artisan population is what mainly effects the ecomony on each server, those with light artisan poplulations you will notice high prices on those servers, those with high populations will notice lower prices but the price war is alot more cut throat, it has nothing at all to do with how much people charge for raws on the market, because the people who are hard core artisans harvest their own stuff to minimize on cost and maximize profit, seeing that the minority of hard core players give artisans a burst of cash flow each time a expasion is released, over time casual players eventually make them more money, until the next expasion is released.</p><p>Anyway im getting way of track now, and im glad this change is coming out, i will miss the sub combine feature though but im sure Provisioners wont be missing it :smileytongue:.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[-Aonein-]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>I see your a crafter so of course it sthe harvesters fault. WHats funny is despite the prices of crafted stuff on Faydark all the harvests except for rares usually sell for under 1s a piece, even t6 stuff. A few 'commons' do sell for more but seems mostly limited to the 'latest and greatest' recipe that everyone wants and spell components. I trash my common t6 harvests because I don't feel like filling my house vault with stacks of 20 that will sell for 1c a piece.<hr></blockquote>Yes I'm a crafter and I don't blame harvesters for anything. They charge what they charge, but my prices change accordingly so before you all go jumping up and down screaming at your local crafter, think about why his prices are as they are. Obviously some crafters want more pure profit from their items than others. There will always be some that are greedier than others. It's just how things are.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh i get it now, a Artisan cant go and harvest his own raws can he, he is forced to buy them of the broker.........makes alot of sense :smileyindifferent:.</p><p><font color="#cc0000">No, we can't. Speaking from personal experience, even if I spent every minute of every day that I don't spend crafting on harvesting, Istill will never have enough rares to keep up with the rate I sell items. Hence, people like myself are forced to resort to the broker. Sure you can go and try to harvest all your rares and improve your profit margins, personally I find harvesting mind numbingly boring. Funny that some actually enjoy doing it.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh right so now i understand, you can only make a profit from selling rare crafted items, not common crafted items, yeah i can see how this makes sense too............and as for buying them off the broker to make a profit, yeah that makes even more sense too...........:smileyindifferent:</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><p>As for crafting the same stuff over and over again as compaired to adventurering and killing stuff over and over again, the difference is which i think you misunderstood my post is simple:</p><ol><li>How many quests do adventurers get compaired to artisans, including writs?</li><li>How many different zones can adventurers explore compaired to artisans?</li><li>How many raid zones can artisans get together and raid?</li><li>How much benefit does a artisan get from mentoring another artisan?</li><li>How many Tier 6 artisan writs are there to do?</li><li>How many recipes have been left out of the game that still havent been put in?</li></ol><font color="#cc0000">There is no difference in adventuring. You kill different mobs in the same way. It's just a new model, but the same battle over and over again. Points 5 and 6 are a perfect example of SOE neglecting the crafting community. They just don't care at all, they'd rather shove the entire community in a corner and not have to deal with them ever again. Tier 6 writs have been missing for months, carpenter rare recipes never implemented. There is no reason for this. They could use the excuse that they have been spending time on this revamp. If that's true then why would every other artisan class start with t6 rare recipes when DoF was released and carpenters got zilch? Because they don't care. Which is the precise reason that a crafting community backlash will ultimately result in 0 response or change.</font><p></p><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>No difference from adventuring? Ae you serious? There is so many more quests to do then artisans could ever dream of having for artisans, killing mobs isnt the only way too adventure, you do realise this dont you? But there is only one way to craft, push 3 buttons............</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><p>I could go on and on, but i think you see my point that the current system of crafting is a very more then tedious idea. If you think that the current system is challenging, then more power to you, but like has already been pointed out, crafters fill the minority of the game and some take advantage of this and charge outrageous prices on the broker and monoplize the market, some servers like Everfrost for example when it comes to jewelery, there is a select few people that basically own the market, if you can make them cheaper but still make a profit and undercut them, they will send you a in game mail asking you to join them to help control that part of the market and yes you are offered a cut of the money, if you dont answer them ( like my wife didnt ) they will under cut not only you but themselves so NO ONE is making money just to force you out, its not going to worry them because im 100% sure the same people control other aspects of the market as well ie: Alchemy, Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing and Food / Drink basically all the essentials that a player needs in his / her day to day gaming life, so if they do have to undercut people to force them out of the game, game as in broker battles, then they still make thier money from the other sections of the market they control.</p><p>Just go have a look on your brokers and look up stuff that people use alot of, Food / Drink, Posions / Potions etc etc, and see how many pages of the same persons name you will see selling stuff and im 100% sure that if your the type of artisan who can put in enough time to make hundreds of the one item and splash the market with the items, you will get so much hate mail its not funny.</p><font color="#cc0000">Funny cos I've never gotten a single piece of hatemail and I have dumped massive amounts of invis totems on the market since DoF changed them to actually be useful. I've undercut people who are selling items from virtually all tradeskills and haven't seen any sort of retaliation. Maybe they're trying to irk me with the silent treatment. OH NOES. Maybe you've got the Mafia running the Everfrost server.</font><p></p><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>As funny or stupid as you may think what i said, did you notice i left carpentry out of the list? Thats because no one really needs those totems, there isnt as big a demand for those compaired to other items ie: Food / Drink, Potions / Posions.</p><p>Yes acually now that you say it, it does sort of resemble a mafia, i mean can you see any sense in under cutting people to the point where your selling them on the broker cheaper then what you would get selling items back to NPC vendors? No, i didnt think so.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div><p>Now i agree that this change will get alot of people into crafting, and no i dont craft because of the way the current system is set up which has nothing to do with sub combines, i like that aspect of the game but they could some how make it more enticing instead of clicking the same 3 buttons over and over again in the same room over and over again for not only weeks but months, its not tedious, its depressing.</p><p>All i know is the current artisan population is what mainly effects the ecomony on each server, those with light artisan poplulations you will notice high prices on those servers, those with high populations will notice lower prices but the price war is alot more cut throat, it has nothing at all to do with how much people charge for raws on the market, because the people who are hard core artisans harvest their own stuff to minimize on cost and maximize profit, seeing that the minority of hard core players give artisans a burst of cash flow each time a expasion is released, over time casual players eventually make them more money, until the next expasion is released.</p><p>Anyway im getting way of track now, and im glad this change is coming out, i will miss the sub combine feature though but im sure Provisioners wont be missing it :smileytongue:.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote></span></div><hr></blockquote><p>No comment here?</p>

[Carna]

<blockquote><hr>Currently, I don't craft in EQ2 because I detest the system. I will likely try it after the changes. I wouldn't quit playing with crafting either way, but I deffinatly have enver been bored enough to persue the crafting as it is now.<hr></blockquote><p>I can only echo these words as my own. I've tried to like the current crafting system, really tried hard and just can't. If I were just a minority view then it'd be no biggy. If one checks the levels of players however one quickly finds that those who persist with the current crafting system are by far the minority.... hence SOE is changing it.</p>

[Froed20]

Next live update, SOE's throwing out the combat system and replacing it with card battles.The world.... is doomed.<div></div>

[Trista]

<div>I am surprised about how most of you talk about WoW, and most of you without knowing what WoW exactly is.</div><div> </div><div>I have left WoW after 1 year playing it (hardcore) and i have just entered EQ2 looking for a deeper game. In WoW, i got Lvl 60 in less than 2 months, and later, all instances finished, epic gear and pvp rank 11, in a guild with most of the rank 14 players of my server (korgall).</div><div>After one year, WoW gets so boring that you would play even Mario Bros for fun. It's always the same instances, quests. There is no dificult in finishing any instance, just if you can do them in less and less time each time you enter.</div><div> </div><div>Crafting is useless, since best gear is got from drops in high-end instances (Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Onyxia and AhnQuiraj). You can get 300 (maximum value) in any crafting profession in a matter of hours just buying components in the auction house.</div><div> </div><div>Comminity is... ehrmm... well... inmature? most players just whine about nerfing others so their class is better. Ninjalooting is common, corpse-camping lowbie players is a sport, bugs all around...</div><div> </div><div>PvP is senseless. Blizzard lied to players when they said pvp would be players fighting for contested territory, and now we just fight in absurd battlegrounds with neverending queues (my guild-raid is usually queued for 30-45 minutes to enter a pvp battleground and we win the battleground in less than 10 minutes). PvP rewards are stupid, since you just get gear, so once you have got the rank you needed (and you have to be grinding honor for hours, it's not a skill matter), then pvp is useless, and you don't ever enter battlgrounds anymore.</div><div> </div><div>WoW has no deep. Realize about it. Smooth movement, yes. Funny graphics, yes. Nice sound and music efects. But.. it's just a pretty gift without sense. I like DAoC much more, where pvp has a reason, or EQ, where PvE has much more content.</div><div> </div><div>And, do you want to know more? Blizzard sucks in maintenance aspects. Since the beginning of this year, lot of players  from Poland, Rusia, Portugal, Spain, Island, and Italy have got latency problems with lag spikes over 20,000 ms and usual disconections. Blizzard has not even posted ANYTHING about the problem, and there are masive account cancelations (like my 2 accounts).</div><div> </div><div>Do you think SOE changes are bad? Maybe you should go and take a look when Blizzard "touches" any class in WoW. First was the hunter, really unbalanced, but now it's one of the best 1vs1 player. Then the warlock, warrior, paladin and the next one will be the priest. Blizzard doesn't know how to fix the balancing problems. Instead of reducing/nerfing some aspects of overpowered classes, they boost the class they are talking about, so there is HIGH-OVERPOWERED class.</div><div> </div><div>If you whine about SOE, you are probably right and SOE of couse will make mistakes, but don't say WoW is better. Maybe for newcomer players who have never played any other MMORPG before, but... WoW is not that good. I say it after playing these games for years.</div><div> </div><div>Just be glad about what you got, and don't envy what you don't have if you dont want to risk what you have.</div>

[Xev]

<span><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><p>Fighting monsters is just as boring as crafting.  In fact, the crafting system is just a hacked up battle system.  You stand in front of something and spam skills, that's real hard.  The current system limits how fast final products can be churned out, makes sense, and actually has a feeling of accomplishment when working on a multi-step recipe.  I honestly don't see how throwing a bunch of assorted junk into a replicator and spamming skills to make final items in just a fraction of the time as it does now makes crafting more fun, much less has any ounce of logic behind it.  Instead of feeling like you've actually earned something by crafting it piece by piece, you'll feel like you were just given to it for no effort other than running outside and clicking on some rocks.  Well, I know I will at least.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">As for fighting monsters vs. crafting, you are of course entitled to your opinion.  Personally, I enjoy hunting monsters and exploring new areas and locales and seeing new types of monsters to kill as well as working through some of the quests and storyline.  Those are a few aspects that can add a variety to fighting that crafting really can't touch. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">The problem with crafting currently is that for <b>the majority</b> of players, it just isn't enjoyable.  It is a lot more work than it is worth and turns a lot of people away that would otherwise like to be crafters.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">While your disapproval of the changes is certainly valid and you are obviously not alone in your viewpoint on this issue, it seems that it is a viewpoint that is held by the minority and being so, SOE will make changes to make crafting more accessible and more entertaining to the majority of players that will not use it in its current form.</font></p><p>Are you the kind of person that would rather a vender sell you the best equipment in the game for cheap instead of requiring effort to get it? <b><u> It's purposely tedious </u></b>to obtain the good items because there's no difficulty, and making it where it can be done in a matter of seconds just makes it trivial. <u><b>In the world of a MMORPG something has to be either tedious or difficult, and there's nothing remotely difficult about the vast majority of MMORPGs on the market.</b></u>  They live off of showing people progression from their effort put into it, if you remove the effort portion it has absolutely no content other than walking to a nearby Santa Claus that just gives you free items, levels, and plat so you can run around one-hitting everything.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">I found the points you made, which I underlined, to be interesting and they made me think.  While I agree that there should be difficulty involved in the game, it does need to be accessible to a large number of people rather than catering to a much smaller "hardcore" percentage.  One of the problems though, is that Difficulty and Tedium are often interchanged.  The same with words like "complexity". </font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">Now, if the developers are purposely making the game tedious, that would suggest to me that there is some fundamental design flaw with the MMORPG genre as a whole.  No game needs to be tedious, nor should it be.  I play games for fun. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">Now, i've also noticed a lot of people talking about how "dumbing down" the crafting system by removing the most tedious aspects of it will either reduce their immersion and/or sense of accomplishment.  I can understand that for some people that is the honest truth and for those of you that genuinly feel this way, it sucks.  But, the simple fact is, SOE is going to lean more towards the casual crowd, as most new MMORPG's will be doing since the genre has exploded over the last decade. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff33">My personal view on the crafting changes are that they are positive and will make it a lot more accessible to people with limited play times who want to get the most enjoyment out what time they have, rather than being bored with what they are doing.  I hated the original crafting setup, not so much because of how the act of actual crafting is done, with using the skills and such, but because of the largely unnecessary amount of ingredients and such needed to make items for your craft, many of such necessary items seeming to have no logical reason for being needed to make other items at all.  With the changes, they are getting rid of that tedious aspect that myself, and evidently a fairly large sized of the player base, didn't like in the first place.  I will most likely give crafting another shot now as I'm sure many others will, and that is a good thing.</font></p><p>Of course this means SOE could redo the system in order to make it take skill instead of tedium, but they're just going to settle for a WoW clone.  Free stuff with no effort, wee fun.</p><font color="#ffff33">The problem with making it a skill based game is that MMORPG's, in their current state at least, dont' really lend themselves so well to such a setup.  While there are aspects of them that do take skill, at least initially in learning to deal with different situations and challenges that arise, for the most part, it isn't a twitch type style of gameplay.For the most part, MMORPG's have taken time more than anything to advance.  What has been happening with WoW, EQ2 and more of the newer generation of MMORPG's is that they are learning that for a lot of people, time-sinks just aren't fun.  Tedium isn't fun.  Because of this, they are streamlining the games, trying to make them more enjoyable for a broader audience of people.  This does mean that things will be "dumbed down" to a degree, but as long as they don't go overboard with it, it doesn't really have to be a bad thing.Now, regarding EQ2 being a WoW clone, it's far from it really.  I'll give a little background on my experience with both games, since i'm sure that will come into question.  When EQ2 came out, I played it for a couple months, but at the time wasn't happy with a lot of the content and lack of content for soloers and duos (I mainly duo with a long term partner I have had for several games).  I went to WoW after that and stayed there for close to a year, maybe a month or two less, then I came back to EQ2 after a lot of the big changes had been made.  I'm also an MMORPG veteran, so to speak.  I've played a little bit of the original EQ, I've played Ultimat Online, Asheron's call 2, SWG, Shadowbane, City of Villains, Guild wars and also played DAOC for 3 years and was even a Team Lead and got to work with the devs a lot on that game.Now, regarding WoW, from levels 1-59, it is very easy, but also very enjoyable.  There are lots of great environments in that game and I did honestly have a lot of fun at first.  Aside from those levels and the actual environments themselves though, that game really is not very good.  The endgame is catering almost exclusively to the hardcore raider crowd, which is turning off the playerbase that blizzard initially was trying to get to play the game.The crafting in WoW is also horrible and a terrible time sink in some cases, such as enchanting.  Also, the crafting in WoW, outside of enchanting and maybe alchemy, really are next to useless.  My main character was a 300 tailor/300 enchanter, and while they were just basically get the mats, click a button, it is still much simpler than what EQ2's system will be even after the changes.  Also, the crafting in EQ2 really has a purpose as the crafted items are actually useable and comparable to drops.  That alone gives this system much more depth and purpose than WoW's.  At least you can get a sense of accomplishment from this game, knowing that the items you make will be useful to others and to yourself.As for actual leveling, even with the changes made to it and how much simpler it has become compared to what it was originally and compared to EQ1, it is still much more difficult and much more of a challenge than WoW's leveling system.  Also, there are tons of heroic mobs in this game, scattered all over the place and they really can be difficult to defeat in many situations.  WoW has epic mobs, but they are either just huge raid mobs or mobs that can be easily taken by a duo or even solo once you know your class, which is also very easy to do in WoW as almost every class can rely on using 2-3 main abilities for their entire career.  I wouldn't mind a slightly larger death penalty being added, but overall, I think the current system is pretty good.  It has stuff to do for any type of gamer, whether they want to solo, duo or group and end game it doesn't force you to raid if you don't want to, unlike WoW.I look at it this way, SOE is taking some of the good things from WoW, the things that work well and removed some of the tedium from the genre, and they are incorporating them into their game to make it better and more accessible, but still not changing the entire game at its core.  EQ2 still is a very different game than WoW, a much more mature game, and even with the changes still has a lot more depth to it in the long run. </font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>