What I think on LU19 so far...

[Guyver24]

<div>Ok, so I might be new to the whole test server thing, but I'm not new to the game in anyway shape or form.  I thought i'd give the test server a go for once to get a feel for the new content before it's put live onto the servers.</div><div> </div><div>I started on the revamped Island, at first I was somewhat sceptical to the changes, but after spending some time there the changes are pretty good, however not everyone is going to like these changes as they may feel that there was no need to have the original tutorial changed.</div><div> </div><div>The one thing I do disagree with at this point in time is the face that when LU19 goes live it looks as though everyone will be able to pick their profession from the start, while at first this may seem like a good idea, consider this.  Like in real life when you start a job you start at the bottom and work your way up, thus was the way as to how you chose your toon, for example I have a level 50 brigand on the Runnyeye server, and enjoyed levelling him up from the island to where he is now.  Ok admittedly the first 1-19 level's could be considered tedious and a pain to some people, but going through level's 1-9 wheren't too bad, then you had your progression quest which albeit where somewhat cheesy gave you an insight as to each subclass, i.e Bard, Rogue and Predator, the progression quest asked that you carry out certain tasks which where aspects of those advancements.  And I feel taking these out and allowing you to choose from the off set is taking away a players ability to choose which profession they want without first seeing what each one's main aspect is.</div><div> </div><div>My fear for this change is that this becomes as StarWars Galaxies did, after playing it for a long period of time, everyone was handed a Jedi toon on a silver plate rather than having to work at it putting the time and effort into obtaining that class, then sitting back and saying "I finally got it".</div><div> </div><div>Feel free to criticise but these are only my feelings and opinions.</div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div><p>I can see where you could be worried.  To lose the feel of each class by being that class from the beginning.  But I think maybe the solution could be is still start off on whatever you want to be but have them add a 10th level ranger quest.  And then have one every tenth level that adds new and cool stuff to your class.  Though I don't think the SWG comparison is very good, but thats just my opinion.  Jedi's really should have never been added to the game and if they were going to be added should have been a viable class right from the beginning.  That way they would have had everything for them done instead of half done by the time they realised everybody wanted to be one.</p><p>I think one example that was used that made some sense was this.  I go into the game wanting to be a shadowknight.  Going by the old system I knew I had to be evil so I picked an evil class.  Then when I got to the tenth level I picked crusader.  Well from that point on I don't have a choise between two classes just one.  So what really is the difference between picking a shadowknight right off and going through the hoops to get to it 20 levels later.  Just a thought.</p>

[mylin1]

<div></div>I think i could have lived with 1-9 as a split then pick the class at 10 but i gave up so many alts (I have far to many alts) between 10-19 just because it was too long and too dull to do it all over again when really by 10 at the latest you know what you want to play.So far I have a level 9 shadowknight and from a emersion point of view I think I got into the spirit of my character much better when I started the class at 1 than when I picked the final character at 20..Also the split at 20 would have been much better (imho) if all classes had a choice of class to play - If monk, paladin, shadowknight, bruiser all had 2 picks at 20 rather than really having your choice made at 10 based on what city you belonged too (betrayal aside)<span>Over all I have really enjoyed these changes - I'm hanging out for 19b to see what goodies (and surprises) they bring.</span><div></div>

[Magu]

Actually, starting as your class gives you a MUCH better picture of what your class is supposed to do.As a Coercer on test, I had a mez at level 1 - this let me immediately start learning about crowd control - mez one mob, kill the other one it's grouped with, then kill the mezzed one.You can't learn that from a silly class quest and 9 levels of generic mage levels.<div></div>

[steelbadger]

<div>I agree with Magus' here.  For some classes the progression was reasonable but for classes like the Coercers the progression was all over the shop.  First you are basically a wizard then an enchanter and then a coercer.  Same for the bards, and the crusaders.  They all had a line or two of progression what was not sensible, imo.</div><div> </div><div>I look forward to all the changes in LU 19 coming to live.</div>

[Thakar]

While much of Live Update 19 looks good, there is one piece that I really dislike, which is the nerf to Summoner dumbfire pets.  A while back, they made them immune to AE (because they were a large part of Summoner DPS and some spells got changed from DoTs into dumbfire pets), but to balance they also decreased their HP...and now it looks like they're making them get hit by AE again, but leaving their HP low.  Dumbfire pets cannot withstand AEs and, as they are a large part of Summoner DPS, it is a fairly significant nerf.<div></div>

[Landiin]

<div></div><span>Mangus</span> nailed this one. I have played many <span>MMOGs</span> and not being able to play the class you want from the bat was <span>something</span> that hurt EQ2 IMHO. Before I pick a class I read what the game says that class is, then I pick the class I want to be. Having some NPC giving me small tasks would of no way helped me know what class I wanted to be. Starting you class at <span>lvl</span> one helps you learn you role in the game much quicker along with learning the game.<div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>I like the revamp. I was hesitant about making alts because I'd have to level them to 20 before getting to be the class I wanted to try out and figure out if I liked it or not. Now I can try out hte class and within a few hours play I know if its one I like to play or not. Also some of the classes have a very different feel from the generic classes you play to get to them. MOnk is an example. In the old (currently live) system I started off able to use just about any weapon, then at 10 I become a brawler and lose access to most of those weapons, and a drop in the level of armor I can use. This was a drastic change and you have to spend the next 10 levels relearning how to play your character. Then at 20 I specialize more and have to spend a few more levels adjusting to be a monk.</p><p>The subclass quests while giving you a brief discussion of the lore/mindset behind the classes doesn't give you a real feel for the class as you aren't having to spend a few levels playing with that classes abilities and limitations. THat's why Sony put in the policy of no rollbacks on characters even for possible bugs to the character selection. If they did people would level a few levels with a class or play it for a few hours and decide they didn't like it so ask for a rollback to pick something else. That concern is now gone, people can get a feel for the class right away and not invest hours (and depending on how much they play weeks) in a character before finding out the class they picked isn't one they like.</p><p>Also most people know what class they want to be when they roll their character and being forced by the system to hold off for 20 levels before they can become it is a turn-off to some people. Its a lot of time to invest in something that may not be what they were expecting. I suspect that was found out with SWG and Jedi's then they made the jedi a starting class, but this was a bad move since they had all these people who put in the effort of levelling another class to max that they didn't want just to get at the class they wanted. At least with the EQ2 class revamp its not as drastic and all those who are under 20 will get auto-converted to their final class (given a choice of classes if they could become more than one) and doesn't hurt anyone over level 20 who's already that class.</p>

[Rhianni]

<div>I agree with Magus.  A player's idea of what a class should be and SOEs are different.  By having it be 20 levels before you get an idea you are investing time that may be wasted.  Better to test and see if you like it as early as possible and keep a customer then to make them feel that their time was wasted.</div>

[Anlari]

<div></div>I dont personaly feel that the first 20 levels showed me much of anything about the different paths I could choose.  As a matter of fact, it always erked me that SK's were basicly goody-goody squires rather then evil, and necromancers in training summoned elements.  The feels of the different classes never really existed until about level 27 or so, and by then, if you didn't like it, you had invested a bit of time and effort into something you didn't end up enjoying.  I'm glad they finialy rid of us the tedium of the "training-wheels levels".

[standupwookie]

The way the game was set up was foolish, and anyone who has played these games before (and those in Beta said this) realized there was NO class diversity.  EQ2 has VERY little diversity, its a very bland game...shockingly bland when you compare it to EQ1.Now, it looks like they are trying to fix some of the problems.  If they had just ASKED any Beta tester, or any fan we could have told them that these are the things that make people really enjoy their characters.<b>Armor/Weapon Diversity</b>:  Noobs should look like noobs....period.  The Vanguard armor look should not even start appearing in the game until you are around level 40.  Keep the plate armor in, but just make it graphically inferior to level 40 and up equipment.  This goes for EVERY armor/weapon type.  Regular tradeskill stuff should look "just ok", rare tradeskill stuff should look much different, and Fabled items should (for the most part) always LOOK different than anything in the game.  You have this nice graphics engine, people have TONS of RAM, just use the freaking tools and make something artistic.<b>Class/Sub-Class specific Item</b>s:  There are some in, but you MUST make sure both sub-classes can use them.  If you want to make a Class Specific item (like a ranger sword) then it should obviously BE meant for a ranger in terms of stats and why its in the game (quest).  Whether or not it should look different is up to the devs....maybe a high level ranger sword would look different.<b>Epic Weapons like EQ1</b>....this is a tough one seeing as the game is meant for level 200 toons....so an epic sword at level 50 would be pretty useless a year from now.  Maybe have Epic quests for these weapons, that allow the item to grow into something more powerful as the next expansion comes along....like the Fiery Avenger to the Fiery Defender quest in EQ1.  This is a lot of work, but do it.  EQ2 is deigned by lazy people, just slap a goblin model on this mob and slap a graphic armor on this fabled sword and hope the game ships before WOW.  Yeah, we figured it out after the first month.<b>Bring back differetn ability choices for Classes</b>.  This was actually fun...sure, there were only a few worth taking and everyone took the same one...BUT, if you spend some time really thinking about the class you can come up with a TON of nifty choices.  Maybe a SK learns teachings of Thule or Innurok which grants them a different ability...who knows, its not game breaking, its class defining.  If you have a bunch of people all pretty much the same, then no one is happy.  Lets see some creativity instead of the usual lazy design job.The game shouldnt be balanced.  Trying to balance everything makes for a lousy game, and you nevery succeed.  Certain classes should be better at certain things that other classes.  This isnt rocket science here and there is nothing listed that other games have not done.  Just copy from EQ1.....There, 4 things that would make EQ2 a much better game.  I am sure other people can think of a number of other things as well...suw

[Thakar]

Now that 19b is out, I have to admit I'm rather disappointed.  There doesn't seem to be anything of any real interest to those who don't have a level 1-20.  And, yes, I'm still extremely irritated at the dumbfire pet nerf (which has yet to be talked about by a dev).<div></div>

[Bellina]

Cool, a thread about real RPG issues, not crafting. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>Standupwookie, your post is excellent. The devs need to spend much more time on issues like you presented instead of the best way to make a cup of tea.One item I wholeheartedly agree with is the epic weapon quests. Go one step further and make not just one epic quest for every class, but an epic quest for every class every 10 levels! The lowbie quests would obviously be less "epic" and time-consuming than the higher level ones, but make it so there is a fun, exciting adventure that culminates in a very nice item that the player can be proud to own, use and have lots of fun acquiring.The heritage quests in place now don't cut it. Of the 10 or so heritage quests I have completed, I got maybe ONE item that was worth using either because it was inferior to something more easily gained elsewhere in the game or just plain wasn't usable by my class. It really is disappointing to put  forth so much effort for something you just hang up on your inn room wall or sell off to an NPC merchant. Whoopee.The items don't have to be godly, just worth using and continuing to use for a few levels.<div></div>

[Wblast]

<div></div><div>I have enjoyed playing on test so far.  I think removing the archetypes and revamping the Isle was a great idea, it's very fun and refreshing.  However, what I do miss are the voice overs, hopefully some will be added before it goes Live. </div><p>Message Edited by Wblastyn on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:55 PM</span></p>

[valkyrja]

I agree with the last poster, though I think HQ items should be items that do something, as opposed to those that are weapons. I still use my Manastone and Hadden's Earring.  And probably will continue to for a long time, because they do something useful.  I can't think of a single class that can't use one of those 2 items on an on-going basis.<div></div>

[Thakar]

Necromancers don't need Manastone (and manastone 2.0 is a fairly easy quest for high level people with DoF) and Summoners get the ability to create Aqueous Stone (one charge insta cast stone that adds water breathing).<div></div>

[salerene]

<div></div><p>the only thing that got me is getting one shoted by a mob 1 level below me from the front for 85hp on the newbie island. specially when my character only has like 50hp. that in of itself might turn some off. It happened like 4 times on the same mobs. also this was a solo ^ mob just after the old goblin camp. can't remember the exact mob, but I think it was a scout class mob.</p><p>Other then that it was the same old easy stuff. do need more mobs to kill. it was nice just leveling, but got boring after about 30 mins</p><p>need something for the non-quester to spice things up.</p>

[swol]

<div><div><blockquote><hr>Guyver24 wrote:<div>My fear for this change is that this becomes as StarWars Galaxies did, after playing it for a long period of time, everyone was handed a Jedi toon on a silver plate rather than having to work at it putting the time and effort into obtaining that class, then sitting back and saying "I finally got it".</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Well playing star wars and not being a jedi ... is no fun.</div><div> </div><div>In EQ at last there is no such "uber" class.</div><div> </div></div>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>swolas wrote:<div><div><blockquote><hr>Guyver24 wrote:<div>My fear for this change is that this becomes as StarWars Galaxies did, after playing it for a long period of time, everyone was handed a Jedi toon on a silver plate rather than having to work at it putting the time and effort into obtaining that class, then sitting back and saying "I finally got it".</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Well playing star wars and not being a jedi ... is no fun.</div><div> </div><div>In EQ at last there is no such "uber" class.</div><div> </div></div><hr></blockquote>I actually enjoyed my TKM and Bounty Hunter more than Jedi. I liked being a little of everything too. The NGE was SOE's biggest mistake to do to an MMO. If they ever do anything that drastic to this game I'll quit this one too.

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>standupwookie wrote:The way the game was set up was foolish, and anyone who has played these games before (and those in Beta said this) realized there was NO class diversity.  EQ2 has VERY little diversity, its a very bland game...shockingly bland when you compare it to EQ1.Now, it looks like they are trying to fix some of the problems.  If they had just ASKED any Beta tester, or any fan we could have told them that these are the things that make people really enjoy their characters.<b>Armor/Weapon Diversity</b>:  Noobs should look like noobs....period.  The Vanguard armor look should not even start appearing in the game until you are around level 40.  Keep the plate armor in, but just make it graphically inferior to level 40 and up equipment.  This goes for EVERY armor/weapon type.  Regular tradeskill stuff should look "just ok", rare tradeskill stuff should look much different, and Fabled items should (for the most part) always LOOK different than anything in the game.  You have this nice graphics engine, people have TONS of RAM, just use the freaking tools and make something artistic.<b>Class/Sub-Class specific Item</b>s:  There are some in, but you MUST make sure both sub-classes can use them.  If you want to make a Class Specific item (like a ranger sword) then it should obviously BE meant for a ranger in terms of stats and why its in the game (quest).  Whether or not it should look different is up to the devs....maybe a high level ranger sword would look different.<b>Epic Weapons like EQ1</b>....this is a tough one seeing as the game is meant for level 200 toons....so an epic sword at level 50 would be pretty useless a year from now.  Maybe have Epic quests for these weapons, that allow the item to grow into something more powerful as the next expansion comes along....like the Fiery Avenger to the Fiery Defender quest in EQ1.  This is a lot of work, but do it.  EQ2 is deigned by lazy people, just slap a goblin model on this mob and slap a graphic armor on this fabled sword and hope the game ships before WOW.  Yeah, we figured it out after the first month.<b>Bring back differetn ability choices for Classes</b>.  This was actually fun...sure, there were only a few worth taking and everyone took the same one...BUT, if you spend some time really thinking about the class you can come up with a TON of nifty choices.  Maybe a SK learns teachings of Thule or Innurok which grants them a different ability...who knows, its not game breaking, its class defining.  If you have a bunch of people all pretty much the same, then no one is happy.  Lets see some creativity instead of the usual lazy design job.The game shouldnt be balanced.  Trying to balance everything makes for a lousy game, and you nevery succeed.  Certain classes should be better at certain things that other classes.  This isnt rocket science here and there is nothing listed that other games have not done.  Just copy from EQ1.....There, 4 things that would make EQ2 a much better game.  I am sure other people can think of a number of other things as well...suw<hr></blockquote><p>They are starting to put in armor/weapon diversity. For monks its gi's with colors for different levels. SUre its the same model with different coloring, but teh colors represent the ranks you go though in the monk/martial arts training. This is at least a good reason behind new textures on the same models. THey're adding 'profession hats' in the next expansion, these will be helms with distinct appearances for the different classes.</p><p>As for class specific (no more subclasses) they ahve some in already in DoF. I've seen drops for just shaman, just mystic, just monk, just ranger. They're just rare and hard to find (as they should be, we already get enough common/uncommon drops that are unusuable or not desirable for our particular class). They at least have the AQs for level 20-25 range and now they ahve class specific looks and stats to them.</p><p>Not sure about epic weapons, never really played EQ1 much. Heritage quests aren't about useful equipment, they're about lore and loot that was famous in EQ1, as well as a good way to get status points, the rewards for the quest was more than the item.</p><p>Your fourth piece is being covered in a way. Kingdom of Sky is adding an Achievement system where each class has 5 paths of abilities they can purchase to specialize, and they can't get all abilities, they can either fully max one path or spread themselves around between paths.</p>

[Xev]

<span><blockquote><hr><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>They are starting to put in armor/weapon diversity. For monks its gi's with colors for different levels. SUre its the same model with different coloring, but teh colors represent the ranks you go though in the monk/martial arts training. This is at least a good reason behind new textures on the same models. THey're adding 'profession hats' in the next expansion, these will be helms with distinct appearances for the different classes.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">While this is a start, with the game having already been out for over a year now, the lack of diversity and variety in weapon and armor shouldn't even be an issue anymore.  Personally, the lack of such diversity and lack of creativity in the weapons and armor are my biggest complaints about the game.  I think that a level 60 character should look infinitely more powerful than a level 20 character.  In its current state, all the armor looks pretty generic.  Perhaps they were wanting to go very realistic in their designs, but even if that is the case, a lot of them still look bad.  I'm hoping that in KoS, this issue will be addressed a little bit more, or if not in KoS, then shortly after that and PvP launch as they should have the ability to devote more of their energy to other things.</font></p><p>As for class specific (no more subclasses) they ahve some in already in DoF. I've seen drops for just shaman, just mystic, just monk, just ranger. They're just rare and hard to find (as they should be, we already get enough common/uncommon drops that are unusuable or not desirable for our particular class). They at least have the AQs for level 20-25 range and now they ahve class specific looks and stats to them.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">I think it would be a great idea if they created two end game quality sets of armor per class with each new expansion, or raise of the level cap.  One would be dropped or quested for and have a unique appearance and stats and the other could be crafted with a unique appearance and have slightly lesser or different stats.  For example, for a fighter class, maybe the dropped one would have 2% or 3% more to each stat on it or raise specific useful stats, like str  to a higher number than what would be on the crafted one.  Doing it in such a way would still give some incentive to go for the dropped, but leave the crafted ones still being comparable.  Anyway, that is one idea that I know will never be implemented, but is something i would like to see.</font></p><p>Not sure about epic weapons, never really played EQ1 much. Heritage quests aren't about useful equipment, they're about lore and loot that was famous in EQ1, as well as a good way to get status points, the rewards for the quest was more than the item.</p><p>Your fourth piece is being covered in a way. Kingdom of Sky is adding an Achievement system where each class has 5 paths of abilities they can purchase to specialize, and they can't get all abilities, they can either fully max one path or spread themselves around between paths.</p><font color="#ffff33">I'm excited about this, although i'm unsure exactly how it will work out.  If they do it well though, it could do a lot to help people be able to make themselves a little bit more unique.For the love of God though!  Please give us more creative and diverse armor and weapons</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>