Give me my inks and components back!!!!

[ValdacilFelagund]

<div></div><div>Ok, I'm all for removing some of the monotony from tradeskilling, but this is gone WAY too far.  So instead of using ink, quill and paper for making spells, now you just roll up to the engraving desk, shove in a gem, 2 roots, 2 wood, and 5 fuel... do one combine and BOOM you have a spell.  [Removed for Content]!!!!!  "So what did you use to make a spell?"  "I don't know, some roots and wood."  This sounds a lot like another MMO I won't mention... the only difference is the SINGLE combine you'll do here.  Sony, did you even thinking about the ramifications of this?</div><div> </div><div>Let see, since there will be not subcomponents to finished product all time spent crafting will be making finished products.  Additionally, a large part of leveling up tradeskilling is spent making the components for things.  In fact, I believe I get more experience over the long run making inputs than I do finished product.  Since you will no longer be making inputs, you'll have to craft 5x the finished products in order to level up.  This means a flood of finished products being produced merely so that characters can level up.  This will inundate the market with product, bottoming out the prices on many non-rare products.  Ultimately, it will become more profitable to sell the products back to the vendor then to attempt to sell them on the market.</div><div> </div><div>Since there will be no subcombines, you will burn through your harvested resources much more quickly, but receive less experience.  This means that in order to gain that next level or that next tier you have to mine 5x as many resources.  Yes, less time will be spent in the crafting instance because there won't be as many combines, but MORE time will be spent harvesting.  Personally, I don't mind crafting so much, but I HATE harvesting.  And most servers are plagued with bot farmers as it is.  If crafting becomes a harvesters world, then you can expect that to increase.  Has anyone tried to harvest in the SS lately?  The competition for nodes is so ridiculously high it is a frustrating challenge to get any real harvesting done.  With more time spent harvesting that competition will increase making harvesting more despisable than it is now.</div><div> </div><div>Additionally, this new harvested loam required for fighter spells sucks.  That's just one extra item to be harvested and at the rate at which I was harvesting them the other day it means that many alchemists who specialize in fighter spells will be mining TONs of rocks in order to get enough loams to support their craft.  And what about rares... does this mean that there will be a new rare... the rare loam... that must be harvested.  That's just one more rare to confuse the mix.</div><div> </div><div>There are many things that could be done to remove some of the tedium instead of this poorly thought out, overly drastic change. </div><div> </div><div>1) Remove the immediate step of the crafting process.  I.E. one of the reasons for this change is because Sony felt crafting was too confusing and thus people gave up on it.  Well, remove the confusion, but don't treat us like idiots.  I can see why a chair might require some planed lumber, some padding, and a dowel to hold the lumber together.  That makes sense to me.  However, it's tedious to first craft the lumber, then the planed lumber... craft some more lumber, then the dowel... craft some yarn, then the padding.  Instead, you could make it so the chair still required planed lumber, dowel, and padding... but those would be the initial combines.  So you would craft the planed lumber, the dowel, and the padding directly from the raw materials, then put it together as the chair.  For spells this was the biggest tedium as you had to make liquids, reagent, then dye, then ink, then the spell (w/ paper and quill of course).  Well, instead of reducing it all the way down, have the gem resource make the ink directly, then make the paper and quill directly from the wood, then combine the 3 for the spell.  You are making things much simpler and easier for a newb to understand, but aren't dumbing down the process so much that it becomes artifical and makes no sense.  Currently, what sense does it make that a gem, 2 roots, and 2 wood make a spell?  You have no idea why you need those resources unless you already knew that some of the wood was for quills some for paper and the gem for ink (none of which you are actually making).</div><div> </div><div>2) Another thing that would help the monotony significantly, w/out resorting to such extreme measures would be to give us the batch combines Sony has been saying that we were supposed to get for a long time.  As I envision this process making inputs will allow you to set how many of that input you'd like to make.  For instance, if you wanted to make 6 paddings (we'll assume the above changes have also been made, thus paddings can be made directly from the raws) that would require 6 roots and 12 liquids.  The batch combine would still require the same amount of resources and fuel, however the process could be done in 1 combine... offering the same XP as the 6 combines would have.  There would of course be a limit to how many inputs you could make in one shot and batch combines would only apply to inputs, not to finished products.  However, this would remove a great deal of tedium without destroying the crafting system as we know it.</div><div> </div><div>On the whole I see this change of removing ALL inputs to spells as a very BAD idea.  Bad for the community, bad for crafting, bad for harvesting, and bad for the economy of the game.  What concerns me most is that if they proceed with this for spells, they will likely do the same for the other crafting classes.  I would not like to see that happen and if they continue to convert elements of this game over into elements of certain other MMO's then I will certainly be cancelling both of my accounts and moving onto Oblivion when it comes.  I had just made up my mind to stick w/ this game until I started discovering the direction tradeskills are headed.  I like tradeskilling and I would hate to see it destroyed like this.</div><p>Message Edited by Valdacil on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:35 PM</span></p>

[Gromiff]

<div>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! SOE please don't so this to us... PLEASE!!! I love crafting the way it is on the live servers as it is right now, please do not simplfiy crafting by taking away out Primary's and Sub-components. I beg you please don't do this to us. The reason I LOVE to craft is because of the way crafting is right now on the live servers. It is unique, not like any game I have ever played before and I like it this way. Why in the world would you change it??? There is not one thing wrong with the way crafting is going right now.</div><div> </div><div>I like the fact that not everyone likes to craft, less crafters and more adventurers means more business for us who do like to craft. SOE you are gona ruin the market for sure if you take away the crafting style as we know it today. I look at crafting today as an art form, you really have to know what you are doing to craft and I like it that way. Please do not turn crafting into a mindless part of the game. EQ1's style of crafting was the worst crafting system in the world, talk about BORING!!! At least with the EQ2 style of crafting you have to be on your toes to counter the reactions that pop up in order to get your pristines. OMG you are really gona turn me off if you change the crafting system SOE.... I am not gona cry that I am leaving the game thats just plain stupid, but I am gona be VERY VERY MAD if you change it.</div>

[Seyma]

<div></div><p>I have to concur with the OP.  I agree that the endless grinding of subcombines is rather tedious (level 40 sage), but this is NOT the right way to fix it.  It completely breaks immersion, it takes away the realistic feel and feeling of accomplishment when finishing.  "Ok, that done and that done...just gotta do this...shave a little off there...distill this a bit more...OK, ready!"  As opposed to, "OK, I'll just throw this gem, a few sticks and a root or two down on the table...hmm...put this there...done!"</p><p> </p><p>I agree with the OP's ideas as well - either allow batch crafting (even for less XP, just to speed the combines up when you don't feel like grinding), shorten the interim combines, or do something to that extent.  I feel this change does not bode well for crafting in EQ2...hate to be one of those doom-and-gloom I'll-cancel-my-account people, but the current crafting system's a large part of why I stay subscribed, and a change this fundamental would make it a different system.  Loss of immersion for the lose.</p>

[agentsix]

<div></div>is this only for spells or will this affect other crafted items like armor and boxes?

[RoadkillUSA]

<div></div><p>I have been useing this new method and I have to say I like it it alot. I don't need a three step process of making ink to feel a sense of accomplishment. If this makes it so more people want to tradeskill I'm all for it. Some people may not want more people tradeskilling because they are worried about losing profit from reduce sales. Besides they are not done working on the tradeskill instance yet. We are only using a small percent of what is planed in the change. As of now this new method only effects T1 & T2 spell crafting, the rest of the tiers are still the same.</p><p>So far I have only seen this change done to spell crafting and not any other form of crafting. It is a good change, a needed change and I hope they continue with this method for the other t1 & t2 crafting processes.</p>

[ValdacilFelagund]

<div></div>Roadkill - I'm not saying that things couldn't change.  I just think this went WAY too far.  Crafting would be more accessible and thus more people would engage in the endeavor if they did either or both of my suggestions.  However, if you read the entire post you will see why this is not a good change for the community and for crafting as a whole.

[Gromiff]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>RoadkillUSA wrote:<div></div><p>I have been useing this new method and I have to say I like it it alot. I don't need a three step process of making ink to feel a sense of accomplishment. If this makes it so more people want to tradeskill I'm all for it. Some people may not want more people tradeskilling because they are worried about losing profit from reduce sales. Besides they are not done working on the tradeskill instance yet. We are only using a small percent of what is planed in the change. As of now this new method only effects T1 & T2 spell crafting, the rest of the tiers are still the same.</p><p>So far I have only seen this change done to spell crafting and not any other form of crafting. It is a good change, a needed change and I hope they continue with this method for the other t1 & t2 crafting processes.</p><hr></blockquote>RoadkillUSA, I think you are missing the point here... there is no sense of accomplishment if all you have to do is craft like dummy crafting. I like the feeling of actually having to think about what I need to craft. It makes crafting feel more real, more life like, a sense of actually creating items, and having to think about what I need to craft makes it feel more of an accomplishment than just throwing a bunch of stuff in the hopper (like in EQ1) and crafting to finish. I like to actually have to work for the levels I have in crafting. Taking away this aspect of the game is now making it too easy for us to craft and it will get boring very fast and i mean VERY FAST! This is not the thing to do to crafting, it will ruin it all to pieces. Like one of the others in this thread, crafting is one of the biggest reasons why I am subscribed to the game, I fell in love with crafting on the very first day of EQ2.<p>Message Edited by Gromiff on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:55 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gromiff wrote:<div></div><div></div>RoadkillUSA, I think you are missing the point here... there is no sense of accomplishment if all you have to do is craft like dummy crafting. I like the feeling of actually having to think about what I need to craft. It makes crafting feel more real, more life like, a sense of actually creating items, and having to think about what I need to craft makes it feel more of an accomplishment than just throwing a bunch of stuff in the hopper (like in EQ1) and crafting to finish. I like to actually have to work for the levels I have in crafting. Taking away this aspect of the game is now making it too easy for us to craft and <font color="#ff0000">it will get boring very fast and i mean VERY FAST!</font> This is not the thing to do to crafting, it will ruin it all to pieces. Like one of the others in this thread, crafting is one of the biggest reasons why I am subscribed to the game, I fell in love with crafting on the very first day of EQ2.<p>Message Edited by Gromiff on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:55 PM</span></p><p></p><p></p><hr><p>Heh what I highlighted in red is how I feel about teh current crafting. I don't get a sense of accomplishment from crafting currently. I spend more time making subcombines than I do finished products. It's extremely boring my second hour at the chemistry table making me 50th batch of chloro-whatevers. The only upside to washes, resins, and oils is that they at least can be made up to 4 at a time.</p><p>I'm one who thinks the 'change' we're seeing in t1 & t2 spells and essenses is a bleed from internal testing and not how the final crafting changes are going to look. For one I doubt they're going to get rid of the main component crafts, just hte subcombines, the things that don't influence the final products quality. THose are the aspects that made TS too tedious for me to enjoy it or feel it was worth doing. I also don't think they'll get rid of the reactions so things aren't going to be the click and wait of WoW or EQ1, you'll still need to use your skills and pay attention to get the pristines you want.</p><p>Most subcombines are tedious and repetitive, doesn't take much but a macro to make 2-4 washes in a short time. ALl it does is get you a bit of experience and slow down the overall crafting proccess. It doesn't add more challenge to the process or require more skill, it just adds complexity and mostly tedium. I really don't believe they're going to make all final products be just the raws and fuel. If the next big patch has TS notes and we see more recipes converted to the same style as the t1 & t2 spells and essences then maybe you can start worrying.</p></blockquote>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>I'm one who thinks the 'change' we're seeing in t1 & t2 spells and essenses is a bleed from internal testing and not how the final crafting changes are going to look. For one I doubt they're going to get rid of the main component crafts, just hte subcombines, the things that don't influence the final products quality. THose are the aspects that made TS too tedious for me to enjoy it or feel it was worth doing. I also don't think they'll get rid of the reactions so things aren't going to be the click and wait of WoW or EQ1, you'll still need to use your skills and pay attention to get the pristines you want.</p><p> </p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Beghn has confirmed that we are going no-subs, over in General Tradeskills.  The new spells and KoS to start. 

[Sritt]

<div>But does subs mean all combines before the final product or the subcomponents for the recipe (everything but the fuel and whats int eh top spot).</div>

[matinisback]

<div>I'm glade there doing this Why? so when i need something from a guildy it wont take as long :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Gilson-Bertox]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div>But does subs mean all combines before the final product or the subcomponents for the recipe (everything but the fuel and whats int eh top spot).</div><hr></blockquote>It means 1-step combine.  No making an iron edge for a sword, or a carbonite plate for a piece of armor, or a planed maple wood for a shield, or anything like that.  Collect a bunch of raws and fuel, one combine, and you get the finished product.  Thank goodness.  Trying to keep up with my 7 tradeskill toons to outfit my adventuring toons was getting to be too much. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Raz]

<div>This will hurt alchemists who specalized in making poisons.  The loams, especially the rare ones, will be harder to come by.  What will happen to the stacks of loam that have been saved up from inking rare inks?  Will these now be useful to make the adept3 fighter adepts getting effectively say 2 ad 3 abilities (fighter -- loam post patch/ mage -- the ink pre patch) from one pearl (for example??).</div>

[Fuzzey]

<div></div><p>I don't know if anyone has noticed, but what's the current economy situation on your servers? I've not done any crafting in the new system as of yet, but I do see how this will eliminate one fairly important aspect of crafting: sub-components that can only be made by a specialist artisan (such as a non-rare ink that can only be made by an alchemist and doesn't appear in a cross-class book). On Befallen server, I've seen these 'specialist sub-components' range in price from 50g to several plat. If you need several stacks of these, prepare to pay out the @$$ for them. So what are the options after buying such a component? Sell the finished item back to the vendor for only a fraction of what you paid for the component, or mark it up rediculously high on the market. Another option: create a new character and adventure and craft them up to specialist level in order to make your specialist ink (if you REALLY want tedious). Greedy players and botters are killing the economy.</p><p>I noticed someone mentioned about losing the xp you get for subcombines. I have to agree that is how I manage to level a couple of levels in making a finished item (gain 2 levels in the sub-combines and another in the final). Has anyone looked into the fact that since you will be missing the xp for subcombines, the new combine system will compensate by giving you the same xp in the finished product as you would get had you sub-combined it to finish?</p><p>Also, someone else mentioned the feeling of accomplishment of having spent hour after hour making stacks of this and that to come out with a final achievement: OH WOW I CAN MAKE THIS!!! I used to feel this way too. Yes I can make rare steel weapons and etched leather. But why should I bother to spend hour after hour crafting when I can just go out and kill some mobs and collect me a set of armor thats BETTER that anything I can make? And guess what else? You can make this rare armor and that rare weapon along with everyone that can and sell their T3 armor on the market for 30s because of the flooding.</p><p>The way I see it, you're currently spending more time and money crafting than you can get back for it other than being able to pat yourself on the back and say "I have boldly gone where Joe Blow has been yesterday."</p><p>Smile everyone, it's a game....only a game....a fun game....as fun as you want to make it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ke'la]

<div></div><p>I agree mostly with the op with a couple minor sugjestions.</p><p>First, require a few builds of the subcombine(to profect the product) befor you can build it in Batches(in other words you have to make 1 pristine of a given Iteam befor you can batch it).</p><p>Second, you can only batch what the op cleverly refured to as Imputs, Not Final Combines.</p><p>Third(this is where I devate from the op), Batch combines should not grant full XP for the complete batch. IMO if you make 6 Iteams one at a time(until grey) you are learining more about your Craft then if you just turn them out like a factory. I think that you should get 50% of the xp you would have receaved if you would have made them one at a time.</p><p> </p>

[Maroger]

<div>Don't change it -- I like that thrill of getting a pristine. I don't want to see changes that just turn it into WOW combines. The current method requires skill and attention and I want to keep it that way.</div><div> </div><div>I think crafting is one of the best things in the game so please don't change it.</div>

[Calthine]

<div>The basic crafting methos isn't going to change, same interface requiring the same attention to get Pristine.  We just will be using raws instead of builds.</div>

[SorynD]

All i'll say is...The OP couldn't have said it better.<div></div>

[sdb98]

<div></div><p> </p><p>i dont know what you are talking about i am all for the changes go beghn</p><p> </p>

[Worrick]

<div></div><div>I like the idea of raws to ink, paper, and quills, then the next step to spell. Removes a lot fo the tedium and still makes the crafting make sense. Soemthign deffinately had to change, batches would have been enough for me</div><div> </div><div>But Raws->Intermediate->final to me sounds the best.</div><div>Better than Raw->final like on test,</div><div>or raws->chemicals1->chemicals2->chemicals3->intermeditate1->intermediate2->intermediate3->intermediate4->intermediate5->intermediate6->final that it is on live. For spells;chemicals it's oil1, resin2, wash3, intermediates are reagent1, dye2, ink3, paper4, lumber5, quill6. ( if I didn't write those out it looked like exageration even to me who wrote it)</div><p>Message Edited by Worrick on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:54 AM</span></p>

[Qandor]

<div></div><p>Crafting here never made much sense and so you might as well simplify it and have everyone make their own stuff. They never put much thought into the system. Never even attempted to realize the grandiose description of crafting they touted during development. Never supported the system with decent artwork. Used and reused graphics over and over.</p><p>The system was a failure and they still aren't interested in putting any real effort into the crafting side so they just might as well bring it down to its simplest form and be done with it. Serious crafters need to look elsewhere.</p>

[Gobbwin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Worrick wrote:<div></div><div>I like the idea of raws to ink, paper, and quills, then the next step to spell. Removes a lot fo the tedium and still makes the crafting make sense. Soemthign deffinately had to change, batches would have been enough for me</div><div> </div><div>But Raws->Intermediate->final to me sounds the best.</div><div>Better than Raw->final like on test,</div><div>or raws->chemicals1->chemicals2->chemicals3->intermeditate1->intermediate2->intermediate3->intermediate4->intermediate5->intermediate6->final that it is on live. For spells;chemicals it's oil1, resin2, wash3, intermediates are reagent1, dye2, ink3, paper4, lumber5, quill6. ( if I didn't write those out it looked like exageration even to me who wrote it)</div><p>Message Edited by Worrick on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Totally agree Worrick.  Removing ALL sub-combines is a bit extreme, as others said it removes any immersion and makes this very similar to an EQ style "drop everything in the crafting station, click execute, done, rinse/repeat".  Hell they even dummed that down so that you didn't even have to move it out of your bags.  However, the current system of having 3-6 + sub-combines for ONE finished product is way way too much.  It shouldn't take me 8+ hours of crafting to get a few stacks of inks so that I can turn around and make a few dozen final combines in less than an hour.  Keeping ONE sub-combine would keep some sort of immersion, but would also remove a lot of the tediousness. </p><p> </p><p>For example: To make a fighter spell, you use all the necessary raws and fuels to make the ink (1 combine VS 5) then you buy the suspension & fuel to make the essence.</p><p>To make a priest/mage spell, use the same scenario to make ink, but have quills and paper for sale cheap on the vender.  etc...</p><p> </p><p>It is still a two step process, but keeps crafting interesting.  Busting out final combines in a minute or two is far better than one every 10 IMO.</p>

[RoadkillUSA]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gromiff wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>RoadkillUSA wrote:<div></div><p>I have been useing this new method and I have to say I like it it alot. I don't need a three step process of making ink to feel a sense of accomplishment. If this makes it so more people want to tradeskill I'm all for it. Some people may not want more people tradeskilling because they are worried about losing profit from reduce sales. Besides they are not done working on the tradeskill instance yet. We are only using a small percent of what is planed in the change. As of now this new method only effects T1 & T2 spell crafting, the rest of the tiers are still the same.</p><p>So far I have only seen this change done to spell crafting and not any other form of crafting. It is a good change, a needed change and I hope they continue with this method for the other t1 & t2 crafting processes.</p><hr></blockquote>RoadkillUSA, I think you are missing the point here... there is no sense of accomplishment if all you have to do is craft like dummy crafting. I like the feeling of actually having to think about what I need to craft. It makes crafting feel more real, more life like, a sense of actually creating items, and having to think about what I need to craft makes it feel more of an accomplishment than just throwing a bunch of stuff in the hopper (like in EQ1) and crafting to finish. I like to actually have to work for the levels I have in crafting. Taking away this aspect of the game is now making it too easy for us to craft and it will get boring very fast and i mean VERY FAST! This is not the thing to do to crafting, it will ruin it all to pieces. Like one of the others in this thread, crafting is one of the biggest reasons why I am subscribed to the game, I fell in love with crafting on the very first day of EQ2.<p>Message Edited by Gromiff on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Actuly, I did not miss the point you made. I stated, "<em>I don't need a three step process of making ink to feel a sense of accomplishment."</em>  Yes, I understand this is not how you and some others feel and I respect that but to me and many others its very boring to have the added steps that in my opinion are not needed.</p><p>I'm the type of person who can spend hours making a special dinner or take 5 minutes and make a toast cheese sandwich and get the same feeling of accomplishment when I sit down to eat. The end result to me is the same, I enjoyed the food I made regardless how long it took to make.</p><p>I also think this will drive the prices down on the broker which will, in my opinion, be more beneficial to all players. I could be wrong but I'm willing to see the changes through to see if I am right.</p><p>Like I said I do respect the opinions of yours and the others who feel the same way as you do. I just disagree with those opinions, as you do with my opinions.</p><p> </p>

[Pashta]

<div></div>/agree.  Removing ALL sub-combines is too much.  Just make it simpler like the OP said, please.

[Kilaelya]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span class="time_text"><p>Are you serious SOE?!</p><p>Why did I even bother to make my alchemist, really. When I first started TSing when EQ2 first came out I wanted to an alchemist because at the time everyone relied  on them, and I wanted to be something that would be useful. At least useful to guildies and friends if not everyday players. You know what my alchemist makes atm? Nothing. My guild alone has 5 alchemists (one person has a level 60 alch alt). Besides poison and potions the only thing we really make is the rare inks for spells. Now I'm going to be good for just poisons and potions? Awesome.</p><p>Alchemist are seriously the [Removed for Content] class of EQ2 tradeskilling. We've been hit by nerf bats way too many times.</p><p><img src="http://www.kilaelya.com/images/myalchemistcriesatnight.JPG"></p><p>And sorry for being bitter but, why don't you just get rid of the alchemist instead of torturing us? And why am I even trying? :smileysad:</p><blockquote><hr>Beghn wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">There have been some posts in the General Tradeskill forums with the effects on no sub-combines and the effect on Potions/Poisons crafting.  As by-products are going away with the change I thought I'd detail more what we are going to be doing for alchemists and their potions/poisons.<strong>1. There will no longer be Rare potions/poisons.</strong>2. Potions/Poisons will be changing to<strong> single charge</strong> items but they will be stackable.3. The names of potions/poisons will become more streamlined and understandable to the alchemist's customers.4. There will be a shorter list of effects that potions/poisons can do but they will all be <strong>useful to the right customer</strong>.</font></p><hr></blockquote></span><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Kilaelya on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:28 AM</span></p>

[RoadkillUSA]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Valdacil wrote:<div></div>Roadkill - I'm not saying that things couldn't change.  I just think this went WAY too far.  Crafting would be more accessible and thus more people would engage in the endeavor if they did either or both of my suggestions.  However, if you read the entire post you will see why this is not a good change for the community and for crafting as a whole.<hr></blockquote><p>I did read the entire post. I just disagree with what you are saying. To me, even the steps you suggested are just added steps that in my opinion are not needed. It does not take extra steps to give me the feeling of accomplishment.When I tradeskill I do it for one reason and that is to get a finished product. I understand and respect the fact that you do not share the same opinion as I but it does not mean I don't understand what you wrote or how you feel about tradeskilling.</p><p> I also believe the economy, as always, will take care of its self.</p><p>In conclusion, It is too soon for anyone to get worried about the changes on the test server, heck they are not done with them yet. There may be added stuff they may add that will make the changes we see now more understandable to people. I think some people are screaming Fire!! Fire!! when so far there is only a match lit.</p><p>Message Edited by RoadkillUSA on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:13 AM</span></p>

[Ari]

<div>I cannot wait for these changes to roll out to the live servers.  This change is the best thing to hit crafting yet (IMO).  Now I can level my sage by making spells instead of wash, resin, oil, regeant, dye, ink, wood, quills and paper. </div><div> </div><div>Couple other points...</div><div> </div><div>1. The OP asked if anyone tried harvesting in SS lately... I play on AB and was there last night harvesting.  Had no problems finding nodes to harvest from all through the evening. </div><div> </div><div>2. If, as many have predicted, this change to TSing results in a 'flood' of spells into the market from skilling, I don't see that as a bad thing at all.  For some spells, there are very few or no options for those wishing to upgrade.  If more AppIV spells roll out into the market with this change it will only be a good thing (IMO).   </div>

[Graypa]

<div></div>This is really gonna hurt armorers like myself should it be implemented in our tradeskill. We already struggle with levels with no recipes and levels with 1 or 2 recipes. Should the armorer end up with this change it will go from difficult to level to outrageously stupid. Can anyone really believe that by dumbing down the system it will bring loads of people into crafting? It will bring more sure, but it wont bring anyone that isnt a crafter at heart to it. Your either a crafter or your not.Darthiir Khaliss 60th lvl armorer on Antonia Bayle<div></div>

[HeathenPagan]

<div></div><div></div><p>OMG i just read Beghn's post on potions/poisons<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  you have just killed my Alchemist!  With the last changes to harvesting/master drops, I can't chance selling adept 3's so I relied on rare potions/poisons.  Now I'm gonna be screwed out of those!  Well, the only option now is to start charging thru the nose for my services!  I hope the rest of the high-lvl crafters follow suit.</p><p> Thanks SOE</p><p> </p><p>btw..i have several stacks of rare loams of all tiers and almost 20 stacks of t6 handcrafted inks ( were to be used for TS writs)  whats gonna happen to those?</p><p>Message Edited by HeathenPagan on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:18 AM</span></p>

[Silverpaws]

Ya'll do realize that most players dont craft because they think its too hard.  And their complaint is doing all the subs, right?Not that I agree completely with the "stick in a rock and out pops a breastplate" method.  But the subs are so daunting for some, they are missing a complete part of the game out of frustration.<div></div>

[Ezariel]

<div>I for one am not a masochist and love this change.  Subcombines are just a waste of my time.</div>

[Razorbak]

<div></div><p>Since they have an already developed system for crafting and seem determined to implement a drastically different system, perhaps they can actually keep both.  Every tradeskill zone has several of each craftign stations so make half that use the current system and half that use the new system.  This satisfies everyone. </p><p>Those who want to craft the subcomponets for the xp or cause they like to, can contiune to do so - and can also use their current subcomponets instead of suddenly having stacks of parts being useless and losing money selling them to the merchant.</p><p>The faster process can be for those who don't want to use subcomponets or for when a person just wants to make a few quick items without the hassel.  This can be especially useful for higher level crafters who need to make a few lower level pieces without spending half an hour just to craft a few chemicals and parts. And who don't want to have bags of subcomponets for the different tiers clogging up the bank.</p>

[Razorbak]

<div></div><p>Keep both systems.  The new and the old.  Have half the crafting stations on the new system and half on the old system.  That way you can use the old for grinding xp and if you have older subcomponets.  And the new system if you are not worried abotu xp or just want to craft faster and easier.</p><p>This would satisfy everyone, the old and new crafters.</p>

[Jadrial]

<div></div>I have to say that I agree with everything the OP said.I'll never forget that sense of accomplishment I got when I finally understood the crafting process and made that first crude elm bed on the isle of refuge. I had made it myself and yes, it WAS dificult. And that's part of why I was so proud of myself. I placed it in my room as soon as I made it to the city and I've been hooked on carpentry ever since.I agree that crafting is tedious right now. That's why I was really looking forward to batch combines. But if this change goes to all tradeskills then it will lose alot of it's interest for me. I LIKE my games to present some form of challenge. That's why I choose EQ2 over "certain other MMO's."Oh! and mmmmmm Oblivion. Yummy<div></div>

[Kizzmet]

<div></div><div></div><p>I think this was over simplified. I was hoping for a larger amount done at once for sub components, but not an actual removal of them. Like making 5 Feyiron bars at a time rather then just one.</p><p>This is also going to deeply hurt the market as some made their living off selling the sub components. And now items will be worth much less since its less of a job to make them. This factor is something we can all adapt to yes, but personally I dislike when challenges are removed completly, part of the lure of the game for me is not everything is a quick shot to accomplish.</p><p> </p><p>Edit: Just wanted to add that something else I enjoyed about the game which was the social aspect of working with other crafters for your subs, like my sage alt and a fellow guild mate-Alchemist leveling together from my purchase of inks from her. I feel that removing this aspect only isolates the crafters onto themselves rather than working together as they grow in levels.</p><p>Message Edited by Kizzmet on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 AM</span></p>

[LordDragone]

<div></div>I am seeing a trend here that scares me. It certainly looks like SOE is trying to do away with crafting all together. Before you fanboys flame me hear me out. There currently are NO T6 crafting Writs and no word on them being added. So if there are no T^ writs it is safe to assume there will be no T7 Writs as well. ALSO there are no T6 Advanced recipes for carpenters and using the above example it will be safe to assume there will be no T7 recipes as well. Another point....there are 30 new collections you can complete with the expansion and 30 new items to put in your home.....doesn't sounds like any carpenter recipes for T7 for very few. So carpenters are going to be going away. Now this change is going to KILL the alchemist....no more alchemists and no more carpenters.....wont be long before there is no need for crafted items at all

[elbo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div>Don't change it -- I like that thrill of getting a pristine. I don't want to see changes that just turn it into WOW combines. The current method requires skill and attention and I want to keep it that way.</div><div> </div><div>I think crafting is one of the best things in the game so please don't change it.</div><hr></blockquote>O please skills,attention..give me a break most people use 3rd party macro programs  to craft.....only crafting skill need it is to spam your keys 1,000 times over and over for hour at end....skillls what a joke you want skills long tedious crafting and a full team crafting experience go check the vanguard crafting boards

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><p>This change is for all the <strong>DUMB</strong> people out there that really think milk comes from a store.  Simplifying this game to function like aspects of WoW is just as dumb as the people they are doing it for.</p><p>Sorry to sound so bold about this, but crafting should be tedious, it should be hard, not everyone should not be a crafter and just because you got your whiny little character past level 12 to outfitter, shouldn't give you the right to even ask for changes.</p><p>Level 4 characters to 60 in crafting and I may, <strong>MAY,</strong> respect your opinion on this matter, but then if you did do that, i doubt seriously you had any major issues with crafting at all.  Otherwise you would have given it up long ago.</p><p>The point is, this change is purely to feed the masses more "soylent green", not really make crafting more interesting.</p><p><strong></strong> </p><p><strong>Crexus</strong> 58Guardian/60 Weaponsmith</p><p><strong>Cerissa</strong> 60Swashbuckler/60Alchemist</p><p><strong>Enolc</strong> 20Conjuror/60Sage</p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 PM</span></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>I like the trend that is occuring.  I never understood this whole tradeskill process they had chosen.  So I sit there and I wait for a symbol to show up and I hit the key that corisponds to that symbol.  Woopdeedoo.  When I do tradeskills I want to make something.  A final product.  Not a whole bunch of smaller products that sooner or later will make the final product.  The people this hurts economicly is chemists.  The people who make the washes and resins and other inbetween products.  The part I find funny is when I was working on tier one and two armor or weapons I would look at the broker for inbetween parts so I could make the final product and oh what should I find.  Nothing.  Well now if this goes through with all the tradeskills as an armorer I won't have to worry about the lack of items on the broker nor the people charging outrageous prices for eolith temper.</div>

[Jai1]

<div></div><p>Make it easier for new players? Probably not. There will be a lot of frustrations to be had by going straight to finished goods at a low level.  It takes until about level 30 to have the skills in your primary high enough to make pristine(AppIV). Thats with making a lot of components.  Not sure how thats going to work now. Probably will do harvesting-style skill ups so everyone will be having fun. Would have to, to make this work.  I guess I'm usually a fanboi and like most of the changes Sony makes.  This one seems silly and not sure why it is being persued. Is it only for Sages and only T1/2?  I agree a sage would be a boring profession but some of the value for the goods is the time the sage puts into making them. </p><p>Will they still charge the same price for the combine? Would think so.  Is that fair to jewelers and alchemists. Not really, make it across the board so I can get 2 levels in a hour with 100% vitality and a 52% potion from doing disc exp for about no prep time. It usually takes 3-4 hours to get (ink, spike, ornaments) in order to do this. </p><p>I would really like to know the rational behind this and why such a drastic change. Maybe I'm just opening my eyes to things that are a typical MO with Sony. It will be a shame to ruin the mechanics of a very cool(unique) system. Crafting isnt for everyone. Making it as easy and EQ1 and WoW won't change that. There's no work involved and crafting should be about work because it IS about making money. Typically, you have to work to make any. If they make the system a one-step process for finished goods, I don't think I would take as much pride in making anything. But it would be less time and more money for me. So whatever.  </p>

[Jai1]

<div></div>All profession are self supporting. If you are an armorer and you buy WORTs, then you are missing something. Maybe a good tutorial for professions defining the difference between progress and durability and how the 3 reactions for each, progress or durabilty, affect each other and the product.  Maybe some info on how apoc, timber, geo, binding are used to make things that others used to have to make for you.  After a year of tradeskilling, I truelly see the art in the way you do your skills. The system requires some proficiancy to be effective.  Pushing progress or durabiltiy for instance. Teach the people how to fish instead of sending them to the hatcheries for easy catches. No skill there, just the ability to hit repeat.

[Amytheyst]

<div></div>I'm all for the changes.I have 6 different crafters, and and old, since server creation guild. MOST of my time is spent hammering out sub-combinesfor everything from spells to armor. It sucketh. Most of my guildmates are past me in adventurer level and I'll venture to sayyou can probably guess why- its not because I spend all my time crafting and hate it, its because I made a series of crafters so I wouldnt have to try to pay the overpriced amounts that are being charged for items. This is an average player talking here, not a botter, not a TS only player- an AVERAGE player who thinks SOMETHING has to give and this change is IT.I ENJOY crafting. I DO find it a bit too tedious. No. ALOT.The OP just doesnt want to have to revamp his UI <cookbook> is all. (Poking fun V, just poking fun)I'd love to see 200 of each crafter selling their wares on the broker- the economy is WAY out of whack and most of you(myself included) serious crafters KNOW it, and WHY.A level 20 couldnt possibly hope to buy a single t2 or t3 rare *IF* they arent a pro player.Boiled bags for a GOLD+ ?Etched bags for 4+ GOLD?t2 5 hour drinks for a gold EACH?The list goes on and on.Supply and demand my [Removed for Content].More crafters=more broker items=LOWER COSTS.Good.Oh, and a puppy with a noose around its neck for the poster who called the people wanting these changes DUMB. I've leveleda series of crafters in many games, not just this one thank you. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Amytheyst on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:22 PM</span></p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><p>Yeah, make the changes, then we can have 200 plus crafters in each class all at level 60 still refusing to craft T2 and T3 stuff.</p><p>And the number of crafters has nothing, NOTHING to do with T2 bags selling for 1-3 gold.  Its Greed!  Do you really think thats going to change?  The server im on is fortunate to have a large number of crafters in each class, and you know what?  None of them craft for anyone outside of their guild.  Its the entrepreneurs and the greeders that fill the void, unfortunately its more of the latter than the former.</p><p>Yeah DUMB!</p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:25 PM</span></p>

[Amytheyst]

Yourself included Hammy?I'm never beyond doing any tier. Any SMART crafter would. An [Removed for Content] would sit on a level 60 pedestal and NOT work the lower tier market... I thought the serious crafter LOVED to craft just to craft? Hmmm? What difference is the tier? MONEY? Ahhh...Crawl back under your rock.<div></div>

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>I assume you are insinuating that I craft only for coin. </p><p>Not true, but then of course I can't prove that, <strong>OH wait I can!!</strong></p><p>ASK any of the many people on the CRUSHBONE SERVER who have received services from me for anything in the crafting classes I cover. I craft for anyone that comes to me with an order be it T2 or T6. I charge a nominal fee to cover the costs of fuel, pay for the crafting books and scrolls ive bought, and a small profit. Many times I give GIVE Adept 3s away, because its obvious to me that the level 24 conjuror can't afford the prices that the greed machine charge!</p><p>This change makes crafting for fun about as much fun as harvesting.  I do get joy in making things for others, but the satisfaction of actually making something was mine.</p>

[Dejah]

<div></div><p>I like the proposed changes.  I have been crafting since launch, but for the past 8 months now crafting hasn't been about making money for me; there are a lot of other better uses of my time that are A) more profitable, and B) more enjoyable.  For months now I've tried as much as possible to avoid making my own subs by purchasing them off the broker, however, rarely does the broker have quills or paper, and sometimes the broker doesn't even have all the WORTs for sale (three pages of resins and no wash or oils).  Crafting has become a PITA because everyone hates making subs so much that hardly anyone makes subs except for their own personal use.  I welcome the change with open arms.</p><p>Dehah, 60 Sage</p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><p>Crafting should be an Art, it should be hard, and if anything they should add more subcombines and intermediate steps, not less.  They tediousness comes from having to do 500 of the same thing.</p><p>Heres the funny thing. You always here a provisioner or an armorer complaining about making that 5 sub / one final combine item. But I only ever see them making those items, and not the one shot items. Why? </p><p>I think it is because it is more challenging to do those. Not because they are easy.</p><p>You want to make the Sage Class more interesting??  Add more steps, more variety to what is necessary to achieve the Adept spell. Instead of just grind out (fuel)(worts)+reagent,dye,ink+lumber,quill+paper=a dept.  How about you need to create a certain kind of ink for the mage class, not only needing just a rare, but several other ingredients.  Everyone has read the side of a shampoo bottle, look how many ingredients are in a simple bottle of soap!  And were talking complex crafting here, I mean come-on Ice Comet Adept 3, i know there is some ice in there from everfrost.</p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:51 PM</span></p>

[Amytheyst]

You said it yourself- people cannot afford our crafted items. Why? I know, and you should too.There. That out of the way, pray tell how would YOU incorporate adjustments to crafting to increase the average player's involvement into crafting? I'll bet alot of these changes ARE economy driven, and that my friend is our OWN (as crafters) fault.I'm not saying youre not kind hearted. I'm rebuking you for calling people who like these changes DUMB, or insinuating that people who enjoy LESS complexity DUMB. Our crafting system has been overkill for complexity since the start and alot of people do agree, and there are those who like it this way in its current form. I'm somewhere in between, but I realize that these changes are needed, especially from a beginner to intermediates viewpoint. The doom for the overjacked prices is merely icing on the cake. My persepective and opinions on this issue come from many games, many economies, and way too many hours banging away at the forge over many years- I dont expect everyone to embrace them nor make them thier own, but I do see LOGIC behind why these changes ARE being made.For the money driven= get your cash while you can.For the status driven= you'll have your status through good customer relations, despite ANY changes to the system.For the "fun" driven= understand everyone has thier own concept of what is, and not, fun. It has to cater to everyone.-And daaats all I have to saaay about Thaaat.<div></div>

[LordDragone]

<div></div><div></div>I whole heartedly agree with Hammarus!!! Here is another thing that SOE can do to level the playing field between crafting and adventuring....You log your character in, fight a mob of 4 or more creatures, kill ONE of them and the rest drop dead and you gain all the exp for the whole mob...wow that sure soundes like fun to me. WAIT here is a better one the would even things up.....you log your adventurer in ding to 60 get uber gerar and weapons and a message flashes Congratulations now have fun!<p>Message Edited by LordDragone on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:54 AM</span></p>

[Amytheyst]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div></div><p>Crafting should be an Art, it should be hard, and if anything they should add more subcombines and intermediate steps, not less.  They tediousness comes from having to do 500 of the same thing.</p><p>Heres the funny thing. You always here a provisioner or an armorer complaining about making that 5 sub / one final combine item. But I only ever see them making those items, and not the one shot items. Why? </p><p>I think it is because it is more challenging to do those. Not because they are easy.</p><hr></blockquote>Look at broker prices for those 5 combines. That will answer your questions. You do understand that with these changes we will see more diversity down the road for items to create, AND a very competitive modestly priced market dont you?</span></div>

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>Those prices are not coming just from the crafting, and i said it before there are greedy people.</p><p>For crying out loud,  do you know how much a fulganate longsword goes for?  5 to 10 gold total, materials, time and fuels.  An ebon longsword goes for 1 to 2 plat. Why?<strong>  Its the ebon cluster!!</strong></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>I think on the whole the peole complaining the most are alchemists.  The ones who make alot of the subcombines in the game.  What I think I hear is hey your killing my cash cow.  See what I like about being a carpenter was making the bed.  Not making the resins or the oils or all the inbetweens but making the bed itself and saying "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that looks cool"</div><div> </div><div>I think that if the argument is that it makes it too easy then I would also have to mention that it used to be a lot tougher to make things and sell them also.</div><div> </div><div>No house vaults.  God I remember that.  You had to figure a way to keep your character online all day just to sell stuff.  But people wanted it easier and so came house vaults.</div><div> </div><div>And suprise to me when I came back from a long stint away from the game when I found out I could buy the first book of the tier 1 crafters book for all the other crafting classes other than mine own so I could make all the washes and oils and resins without going to the broker to buy it.  Hey before that if you wanted the washes or resins or tempers you had to either log on your alt or go to the broker just to find it over priced.  So they made the easier.</div><div> </div><div>And on neither of these cases are people complaining after the fact.  But I bet people complained before they went into effect.</div>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div><div>_______________________</div><div>jasonqdavis wrote:</div><div> </div><div>I think on the whole the peole complaining the most are alchemists.  The ones who make alot of the subcombines in the game.  What I think I hear is hey your killing my cash cow.  See what I like about being a carpenter was making the bed.  Not making the resins or the oils or all the inbetweens but making the bed itself and saying "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that looks cool"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">As a 60Weaponsmith, 60Sage, 60Alchemist, In my experience, I have made more money off my Weaponsmith and Sage then my Alchemist.  Cash cow indeed!!, More like Money Pit.</font></div><div> </div><div>I think that if the argument is that it makes it too easy then I would also have to mention that it used to be a lot tougher to make things and sell them also.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">Which was due to mechanics, not the actual production of the items, yet in some-ways still has appeal to me because it was more realistic, yet I know it was unworkable, so in the end was a good change</font>.</div><div> </div><div>No house vaults.  God I remember that.  You had to figure a way to keep your character online all day just to sell stuff.  But people wanted it easier and so came house vaults.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">Yeah, made it easyer to sell stuff, nothing to do with actual crafting.  Good change though.</font></div><div> </div><div>And suprise to me when I came back from a long stint away from the game when I found out I could buy the first book of the tier 1 crafters book for all the other crafting classes other than mine own so I could make all the washes and oils and resins without going to the broker to buy it.  Hey before that if you wanted the washes or resins or tempers you had to either log on your alt or go to the broker just to find it over priced.  So they made the easier.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">Again, had to do with mechanics of the game more than making it easier.</font></div><div> </div><div>And on neither of these cases are people complaining after the fact.  But I bet people complained before they went into effect.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">No one ever complained about house vaults,EVER!  The creation of cross-crafting, well you got me there, but again, the other system was unworkable from a mechanics standpoint.</font> </div><div>___________________________</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>The point is; Why not just go to the vendor in the tradeskill and buy the Universal Item, (its a harvested ore, wort, and fuel all in one item).  Then just hit one button on your hot bar and "poof" instant whatever. </div><div> </div><div>No need for a crafting station at all.  May as well just place shipping crates into your inn room stamped <em>"made in Baldurs Gate.. aka. Taiwan"</em>, contained there-in, is whatever item you need. </div><div> </div><div>May as well clear all the beakers, and test tubes on the alchemy station away, they are not needed we have <em>"elfin magic!" <font color="#ff0000"><strong>Keebler would be [Removed for Content] if you suggested these changes to his workshop!</strong></font></em></div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:44 PM</span></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>Just my opinion but I thought about it a little and I think I know one group that will deffinetly be making alot more money.  The harvesters.  Those who go out harvest tons of stuff and then sell it in their vault.</div><div> </div><div>Oh also one group I really havn't heard from in here is what do those who craft foods and drinks think of this change?</div>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div></div><p>Easy to solve the harvesting problem, just take it out of the game. </p><p>SoE can sell the harvest items from the vendors.  Set prices for everything.  6 copper for a T6 succulent root, and 10 silver for a pearl.</p><p>Bah!!, Just sell the Adept 3s from the vendor and get it over with!</p><p>/sarcasm off.</p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:52 PM</span></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div><p>Nah make it even easier than that.  Just have our abilities at their full power from the beginning instead of having to buy the level ups</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Easy to solve the harvesting problem, just take it out of the game. </p><p>SoE can sell the harvest items from the vendors.  Set prices for everything.  6 copper for a T6 succulent root, and 10 silver for a pearl.</p><p>Bah!!, Just sell the Adept 3s from the vendor and get it over with!</p><p>/sarcasm off.</p><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[mylin1]

Although it will be nice not to have to grind out subs (I have an alch and a armorsmith) these changes do seem to scream "Harvest Bot Frenzy) at me (although this might be the lack of coffee)As for Alch being a cash crop - I can't sell anything T2- T3 atm - so when does the cash start rolling in.With adepts and master drops increased I dont bother making skills - the sub combines arent worth the 5sp I make - when this change goes live I can afford to make the skills and sell them for a price that will sell without having to waste 10 years of my life grinding subs.It's not the system I would have voted for (I was keen on the batching of subs) but I think it's a step up from the current dull grind.<div></div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>I think for me the rule of thumb is that if it makes it fun then its good.  Its a simple rule but then its subjective to each person.  But then again for me if it looks like work, feels like work then its work and not fun.</div>

[MaxOverload]

This isn't the stupidest idea ever, but it's the stupidest I've ever seen.I mean, now it'll take me an hour or two to gather materials, and what six minutes to burn through my whole supply? No reasonable priced harvests will last on the broker. If I can make a nickel on the SINGLE combine, then I will, but is it going to help the economy?If people could figure out SWG's crafting system, they should be able to figure this one out.Also, like mylin1 metioned. Botters are going to eat this up. They could flood the market when they can buy out all the Harvests in sight and go one-step into final products.Might as well install an "I Win" button in LU19b.

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>I want fun.  I don't like tedious things anymore than anyone else.  Thats why the batch combine for subs was a good idea. </p><p>But the notion that if i pick up a rock, spit on it and rub it real hard it will turn into a sword is crazy. </p><p> Immersion is what makes crafting fun for me.  By simplifing the crafting process in this way, you remove a good chunk of the reason to craft in the first place.  And I would be much more willing to just look for a vendor to buy the item i need from versus craft for anyone.</p><p>I take back what I said earlier about there being lots more crafters.  On further reflection, I think this will kill it, and there will be a lot less.  Those that actually liked the process of making things will just quit.  At first they will quit because there are so many more crafting, then it will be because there is no money to be made and its a money sink as well as a time sink, and then it will be because its just plain boring because each and every process will be the same, two chunks of rock, two fuel, two roots and some spit and presto! every single item in you recipie book.</p>

[AFKB]

<div></div><div>I have to register my complaint on this one.  I thought it was a joke; perhaps bait for an argument when I read this in the Traders channel.  I am stunned to read that this is a serious consideration.</div><div> </div><div>Developers, the interest in a well-designed roleplaying game comes from the challenge of achieving goals.  I cannot understand why you continue to make decisions based on the desire to make Everquest II an easier game to play.  If I, and many others, wanted an easy game to play then we would have chosen your prime competitor.  One of the legacies of the original Everquest is that it is a difficult and time-consuming experience that requires dedication and thought. </div><div> </div><div>When I made the switch from EQI to EQII, I was delighted to find how many of the tedious quirks had been removed.  As the updates rolled in, however, I couldn't believe that Sony was not only trying to remove the tedium, but make the game nothing less than "easy."  But as a tradeskiller first and an adventurer second, I really didn't pay much attention to the lessening challenge.  Tradeskilling had been, mostly, left alone.  I felt this was correct since tradeskilling in EQII was by far much more palatable than it was in EQI.</div><div> </div><div>Even as it is, I cannot understand why Sony would want to encourage more people to tradeskill.  The markets are already flooded, requiring many final combines to be sold at cost to merchants.  With this change, more people who do not have the patience for tradeskilling will find it much simpler to harvest a few components and take a shot at making the item they need.  Those of us who have spent countless hours perfecting our crafts and memorizing component lists will be left with even fewer clients.  Not to mention the bitterness of having mastered our arts the correct way only to be usurped by yet another attempt by Sony to reach out to the slackers of the roleplaying world.</div><div> </div><div>Which leads me to one final point.  Exactly to whom are you trying to appeal by making EQII an 'easy' game?  I realize that ultimately Sony sees this not as a roleplaying game but as a business, but you aren't going to attract more customers by softening the game until it is no longer any challenge to play. </div><div> </div><div>If you do decide to go live with this change, you may succeed in generating some interest in those who had no interest in tradeskilling, but you definitely will embitter many of us who already had a great interest in tradeskilling.  Which is more important?</div>

[Iisbliss]

<div></div><div></div>Some of the changes to Alchemy are good, those 200 different solvents and badly named potions were annoying and needed cleaning up.They still haven't done anything to fix "instruments" which are a worthless Woodworker combine, and there are alot of other minor tradeskill annoyances... but...They didn't listen to us in Beta, when we complained about the tradeskill system being too time consuming and unbalanced relative to consumable items...ie it takes the same amount of sub combines to make food, potions ect as it does to make a piece of armor.It took them six months to figure out we were right about interdependency.Now they go too far the wrong way, and yes it begins to look even easier than that other game.  Even in that other game you have to refine a little bit for permanent peices of gear, but consumables are very easy.We asked for batch processing for refines and sub-combines.    This alone would have been fine.  This "fix" is no fix, its a total wipe-out.I bet you that after they pull this silliness off, the market will become unbalanced, and tradeskill made items will end up getting a stat nerf, and nodes will get a rare nerf, so that ultimately, you will have to join a guild and raid to get decent gear.Then to make tradeskills viable again, they will add in quests that require more tradeskill items to complete them.Been there, seen it, didn't like it.So much for appealing to the solo player, and long live the bot harvesters.Clueless newbs = )30 Alchemist, Sage, Weaponsmith, Tailor, Provisioner and Woodworker.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Iisbliss on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:20 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Iisbliss on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:23 PM</span></p>

[ValdacilFelagund]

<div></div><p>Firstly, I'd like to commend <a target="top" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=34534"><span>AFKBRB</span></a> on their first post.  They obviously feel empassioned enough about this subject to forego over a year of silence on the boards (check the registered date... since the beginning) in order to voice dismay at this change.  It's a common theme amoung other dedicated crafters such as myself.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have yet to witness any change that begins to be implemented on Test, confirmed by Devs, complained about by players and DOESN'T make it into the game.  I'm afraid they already have their minds made up and our voices are falling on deaf ears.  Well, I'm already done crafting.  I refuse to level up my crafters any further with this system coming down the line.</p><p>A good point was mentioned.  Who are all these grand sweeping changes caetering to?  The slackers of the gaming community who want everything handed to them on a silver plater without putting any effort into it?  I LIKED that Everquest II didn't appeal to the entire gaming community.  I LIKE that many young kids were too immature to be drawn into the complexities of the game and prefered a fake, generic gameworld of other MMO's.  I LOVED that PvP was nearly non-existent therefore the griefers and PKers weren't around.  If you look at the demographics of this game I'm sure that you will find the average age of players is well over 20, if not over 25-30+.  I know many 40+ year old players (many in my guild) who want to game with other adults and this game doesn't attract the kiddies as much.</p><p>Unfortunately, those kiddies are a HUGE market share and thus HUGE profit potential.  So all of us mature adults who prefer a more indepth, viceral, and emmersive atmosphere are left out in the cold as Sony attempts to cow-tow to the slackers of the gaming world who want to just shove junk into a box and get a product out the other side.  Who cares what happens INSIDE the box, they say, I just want MY stuff.</p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Amytheyst wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div></div><p>Crafting should be an Art, it should be hard, and if anything they should add more subcombines and intermediate steps, not less.  They tediousness comes from having to do 500 of the same thing.</p><p>Heres the funny thing. You always here a provisioner or an armorer complaining about making that 5 sub / one final combine item. But I only ever see them making those items, and not the one shot items. Why? </p><p>I think it is because it is more challenging to do those. Not because they are easy.</p><hr></blockquote>Look at broker prices for those 5 combines. That will answer your questions. <font color="#ff0000" size="3">You do understand that with these changes we will see more diversity down the road for items to create, AND a very competitive modestly priced market dont you?</font></span></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>This is one hell of an assumption to make based on a VERY small bit of information. The fact remains, that most people skill up to high teirs, and stop making lower tiers, and while this may make it easier to make all items, most people don't want the clutter of all that junk in their bank. Sounds to me like it will still take a heck of a lot of roots, ore, etc to make every item, and most people don't want to deal with it. Personally i've got ready made subs and interims for T4 - T6, and it sucks up more than half my bank.</p><p>The problem is, that right now, only the greedy and the crafting enthusiast actually make stuff that isn't to order and put it up on broker. You think that this will change that? It takes a LOT more than a bunch of crafters to lower a price, heck, on my server there are about 5 carpenters in FP that actually put items up for sale, in Qey there are at least 20, and guess what? Prices in Qey even without Fence fee range from 2 to 4 times as much per furnature item. Crafters tend to pick a happy medium, and if someone sells for less, they buy it for cheap and put it up for regular price. Hell, even NON crafters do that, i've got lots of people I know that have had well over 20pp since last May at least, and they got their money by playing the broker market. This will NOT fix the problem with items being up on broker, people do not make the less expensive stuff to put up for sale, they make the expensive stuff. Sure, they might make you the cheap stuff on request, but they sure as heck won't bother making it to put it up for sale when it sucks up valuable selling space. I mean jeez, just look at what happened to the food market after the provisioners all got to 60, I couldn't find a single drink T5 for the most part, and when I did, it was 3 times more expensive than it was a month previous. Its flat out insane, and making it so that items are easier to make will not fix this, it will just put more people into the market that don't really care about crafting and just want your money.</p><p>But, whatever, at the rate this game is changing by this time next year it will probably have changed drasticly for the 4th or 5th time. All I want is a game with some form of consistancy for crying out loud. I'm tired of all this "omg omg omg, game X has 5 bajillion customers and we've only got 1/2 bajillion! Change it to mimmic that game!" Most games that keep my attention at least TRY to remain somewhat consistant. And don't come at me with the "But MMO's are a changing thing! They're never the same!" I know that. The point is, there is a VAST difference between "needed evolution/change" and rampant, massively game altering changes.</p><p>As I've said before in other posts, I picked this game because I liked this game best. They keep changing it and it is getting more and more like games i've played before and quit. If I wanted a "Game X, Y or Z" clone I would have picked one of those games in the first place and wouldn't have bothered paying SoE.</p><p>In the end, this only nullifies all the work I put into getting to 60 armorer. Whats the point? If indeed this does lower the price of items in game, then why am I going to bother when I can save my 10pp that I blew just to get from 50 to 60 and go out and buy that cobalt armor for 6pp for the whole set. Seems like a bargain to me. At least that way i've got 4pp left over and whatever amount of time it takes to get that next 10 levels or so.</p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>Oh yes us slackers.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] us people who would rather chop off our hands than make all those sub combines over and over and over again.  Us that remember that this is a game to get away from work.  You know work that thing you get paid for during the week or weekend that you have to do to pay the bill to play this GAME.</div>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>You people that like the crafting system the way it is are sadomasochist. You enjoy pain and torture huh? This system is THE worst crafting system to ever be devised in a GAME that's supposed to be FUN, not TORTURE and NOT a 2nd job. 100 steps to make an arrow. You people must be on some serious drugs, that's all there is to it.<p>A total revamp of the crafting system has been a LONG time coming. It's about time they make it like it should be. I have always wanted to strangle the person that came up with this torture.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:23 PM</span></p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>Successer wrote:</p><p>You people that like the crafting system the way it is are sadomasochist. You enjoy pain and torture huh? This system is THE worst crafting system to ever be devised in a GAME that's supposed to be FUN, not TORTURE and NOT a 2nd job. 100 steps to make an arrow. You people must be on some serious drugs, that's all there is to it.</p><p>A total revamp of the crafting system has been a LONG time coming. It's about time they make it like it should be. I have always wanted to strangle the person that came up with this torture.</p><p>___________________</p><p>LOL,  let me guess, you crafted all the way to nine only because the HQ you were working on required it.</p>

[Asif]

<div>All i am going to say is WOOT  about time the crafting in this game is like pulling teeth and i do have a lvl 55 crafter so dont tell me i dont know what i am talking about.</div><div> </div><div>I have played other online games with crafting and this one is by far the worst i have ever seen its just so long and boring but thats just my feelings on it.</div><div> </div><div>But i am happy for this change  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Bayne]

<div></div><div>I agree with the OP. Changes are needed, but this is too far. The detractors in this thread don't seem to realize that the OP is not saying that changing the system is bad. The OP is saying taking such a drastic approach is not healthy for the game. I agree. I think the changes are way too far. The whole idea of 1 combine to make something just takes away of why I like crafting in EQ2. Yes I'd like to get rid of the tedium (and bach combines would fix that). Those that say this is one of the worst crafting systems, I think it's one of the best i've seen in my 6 almost 7 years of MMOs. Each person has thier own opinions. My opinion dosen't invalidate yours and vise versa.</div><p>Message Edited by Bayne on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:07 PM</span></p>

[Azarphan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Worrick wrote:<div></div><div>I like the idea of raws to ink, paper, and quills, then the next step to spell. Removes a lot fo the tedium and still makes the crafting make sense. Soemthign deffinately had to change, batches would have been enough for me</div><div> </div><div>But Raws->Intermediate->final to me sounds the best.</div><div>Better than Raw->final like on test,</div><div>or raws->chemicals1->chemicals2->chemicals3->intermeditate1->intermediate2->intermediate3->intermediate4->intermediate5->intermediate6->final that it is on live. For spells;chemicals it's oil1, resin2, wash3, intermediates are reagent1, dye2, ink3, paper4, lumber5, quill6. ( if I didn't write those out it looked like exageration even to me who wrote it)</div><p>Message Edited by Worrick on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I would be inclined to agree to this as well.  Take out some of the tedium but please have it make sense this is a fantasy game after all and food replicators would just not fit the genre.  "BATCH CAPABILITIES" please.   As a provisioner I at best can barely keep 3 people including myself in food and water because of how many combines I have to do to make one stack of finish food.  The system is not the worst though I would have to say that Horizons(at least they had batch capabilities) followed closely by EQ 1 (ZZzzzzz)  were among the worst.  Best is definitely Ultima Online.  Honestly I think that the SOE execs issued an initiative to try to capture a chunk of the WOW crowd so I expect that this is not the last game system to be dummyfied.  the hope is that they don't get too carried away

[AFKB]

<div></div><div>Thanks Valdacil, I don't usually engage in forums but this piece of news solidified my growing concern that EQII is becoming less of a unique experience in order to try and draw players from other inferior rpgs.  Its sad that the game that was the model for all others to follow is now trying to dumb down to the competition.</div><div> </div><div>I would agree that changes are necessary to the tradeskill system.  I would agree that changes are necessary to most aspects of an online game.  But what Sony is consistently doing is altering the game system in order to make it easy.  I could understand if there were a risk / reward system built into these improvements, but almost all of the updates have been across-the-board simplifications to appease the drooling masses. </div><div> </div><div>The death system is a perfect example.  When the game began, no one outside of your group could ressurect your corpse (likewise with healing.)  If you revived, you had to find your corpse and absorb your shard.  Your party shared in the cost of your death, thus creating an incentive to keep your mates alive!  You had experience debt and loss in armor quality.  One by one, these penalties were removed until only the last two remain.  Now, in certain cases, it makes sense to die in a location in order to revive nearer to your destination (I've seen people do it.)  In essence, death in EQII is no longer something to avoid at all costs - in certain circumstances, death works in the player's favor!  Does this make sense at all?  Only from a business perspective.</div><div> </div><div>But back to tradeskilling.  EQII has a tradeskill system that allows players to craft the items that are most valuable to use.  By this fact, it *should* be somewhat difficult, even tedious, to create those items.  And the tradeskill system that exists now does become tedious.  But the solution is not to simply remove the difficulty from the matter as Sony has done with so many other aspects of the game.  Bulk combines are a viable solution, but any 'ease' in gameplay should come with an appropriate risk factor.  If its possible to make a stack of inks, then you should also lose a number of them by not making pristines - much like how resins, washes, tempers and oils work.  If Sony were to implement that system, I would welcome it with open arms and open a bottle of champagne.</div><div> </div><div>It does bother me that Sony continues to make such drastic changes to the game system.  It bothers me that Sony is so unhappy with their product that they have altered it so many times in the past 20 months.  Whereas most of the problems Sony seems to have with EQII could have been solved with tweaks, they have instead chosen time and again to overhaul the system. </div><div> </div><div>The greatest games are difficult and take time to master; Chess endures the test of time, CandyLand does not.  Which do you want Everquest to resemble?</div><div> </div><div>Tyrisius</div><div>50th Mystic </div><div>47th Armorer</div><div>Oasis</div>

[SirWolven2]

<div></div>I think the current system is tedious and godawful and no fun at all.  I believe these changes will make tradeskilling interesting, and I'm definitely looking forward to them.

[Ama]

<div></div>I do agree with you guys on this matter and do believe it is really really ill advised.  I think the developers thinking really is going towards opening up crafting to any and all.  This to me is truely a bad idea and should not be done whatso ever.  I say however that if it is done it should be done in the form of an advanced ability wherebye only lvl 40-50+ people get the chance to make it so they don't have to make sub components and components.   You advance to the lvl of xxxx crafting profession where you just need the raw materials and the fuel to make the item.  I think this should be only a reward to people that have earned it not given to everyone as a handout.  

[barganbaseme]

<div></div><p>For all those people out there that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about EQ2 and threaten to leave it for WoW....  don't bother, in a few more months this will be WoW2</p><p> </p><p>Botfarmer + 1combine/final = end of crafting community/economy</p>

[Sukkin]

<div>Usually I'm pretty layed back and roll with the punches when it comes to the changes that Sony has made in the past. I'm a long time player of 5+ years going back to EQ1. I have three level 60 tradeskillers in EQ2 and honestly, this might be the straw that breaks the camels back and does push me to Vanguard as soon as it's available. I had planned on staying with this game for years to come but, AGAIN, Sony has taken all sense of accomplishment out of the game for me. There truly is no risk / reward balance in this game anymore. Tradeskilling was the last bastion of THINKING in this game. It wasn't an easy skill to learn but once you did it wasn't bad at all. It took some perseverence (sp) and dedication but was worth it for your time. Now every Tom Richard and Harry will be pumping away finished products, deflating the market and I'm sorry but the Diversity of products will be DIMINISHED unlike what some other person posted before. Heck, one of the things stated and confirmed was rare poisons and potions would be REMOVED and that's just one product line. What about the other classes?</div><div> </div><div>Sorry Sony but I'm tired of trying to defend you to my friends and peers. They ARE right. This game is getting insanely easy and no fun anymore. I can't convey enough how passionate many of the current tradeskillers feel about this and I wish I could....as well as wish that these pleas would stop falling on deaf ears.</div><div> </div><div>P.S. - Whoever said Alchemists are cash cows is completely off base. Out of my three Tradeskillers and my wife's 2 other level 60 tradeskillers, my alchie is the LEAST profitable. Just funny how so many people have opinions on this yet only about 50% of the people actually craft.</div><div> </div>

[Amytheyst]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Valdacil wrote:<div></div><p>Firstly, I'd like to commend <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=34534" target="top"><span>AFKBRB</span></a> on their first post.  They obviously feel empassioned enough about this subject to forego over a year of silence on the boards (check the registered date... since the beginning) in order to voice dismay at this change.  It's a common theme amoung other dedicated crafters such as myself.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have yet to witness any change that begins to be implemented on Test, confirmed by Devs, complained about by players and DOESN'T make it into the game.  I'm afraid they already have their minds made up and our voices are falling on deaf ears.  Well, I'm already done crafting.  I refuse to level up my crafters any further with this system coming down the line.</p><p>A good point was mentioned.  Who are all these grand sweeping changes caetering to?  The slackers of the gaming community who want everything handed to them on a silver plater without putting any effort into it?  I LIKED that Everquest II didn't appeal to the entire gaming community.  I LIKE that many young kids were too immature to be drawn into the complexities of the game and prefered a fake, generic gameworld of other MMO's.  I LOVED that PvP was nearly non-existent therefore the griefers and PKers weren't around.  If you look at the demographics of this game I'm sure that you will find the average age of players is well over 20, if not over 25-30+.  I know many 40+ year old players (many in my guild) who want to game with other adults and this game doesn't attract the kiddies as much.</p><p>Unfortunately, those kiddies are a HUGE market share and thus HUGE profit potential.  So all of us mature adults who prefer a more indepth, viceral, and emmersive atmosphere are left out in the cold as Sony attempts to cow-tow to the slackers of the gaming world who want to just shove junk into a box and get a product out the other side.  Who cares what happens INSIDE the box, they say, I just want MY stuff.</p><hr></blockquote>Ive got a couple of registered at release accounts I could make my first post with too. <chuckles>Val, I'm 40 years old. I want and DO game with other adult players on my server. I'm also a veteran of many previous games. (Yeah, so what) - hear me out... If you are willing to dump because of these changes, so be it, but you are the one missing out.Ive seen these arguments over practically every crafting change going back to old UO days- Complexity does NOT hold market share, interest does. Unfortunately, some people can be entertained by a dog taking a crap, and others it takes them knowing what the dog ate before it becomes interesting. Guess what? the bleachers are chocked full of people just willing to watch the dog crap, and the rah-rah sectioners who want to see whats in the bowl are few and far between. Thusly, a healthy medium has to be found- Tearing the current crafting system down to a minimum is probably needed in order to bring it UP to a "healthy" medium. I have my own speculations on the outcome of this and most of the naysayers probably wont like it one bit, so I hold those in reserve.If the system is too easy, I'm sure it will be changed again. Dunno bout you but I'm a dedicated long hauler with any game I play.Lets see whos around a year from now.</span></div>

[Iisbliss]

I did eqI for six years.   That other game kept me busy for about a year, while playing eqII off and on too.  I came back to eqII more or less full time now, but I have been an SOE customer long enough to know that once the Vision died, the real game became about catering to the masses for the dollar.EQI has mudflation all over the place, now EQII is becoming not an alternative to that other game but a clone of it.Loyalty only goes so far, and it is a two way street.  Meanwhile, SOE's other great game is now selling for 19.95 and being advertised on TV...like it should have been all along.<div></div>

[HeathenPagan]

<div></div><p>I have been crafting since i rolled my toon back in early December '04.  It took almost the first 30 lvls to really figure out that I could make money buy make spells than selling WORTS, and then wasnt until lvl 35ish that i discovered Apothecary and that my friends, opened up a whole new world!  I had all these recipes not being used and couldnt make and all of a sudden, i'm making potions/poisons and rare spells!  My pocketbook began runeth over!  Many times I had almost given up completely, several times between 27-30 and again early-mid 30's but I decided I'll be damned if I let a game beat me! Those days were difficult and frustrating, but guess what?  I got past it, figured it out and made some good coin on my way to 60!  Tedious? yes!  rewarding?  yes!  worth the trouble? yes on all.  There's gotta be a better way than scrapping sub-combines, thats just the easy way out.</p><p> That being said, this revamp such as it is, in my opinion a very bad idea.  If SOE wants to continue with their new KISS policy, there is nothing any of us can do to stop it</p><p> </p>

[Floridasmb]

<div>Here is the opinion of a non-crafter....  I have been playing since the games inception and have dabbled in Tradeskills but it is far too much work for me to make something....  So I buy from players and pay higher prices, gladly, cause I know the amount of work they put into making one simple item.  With these changes, even someone like me that HATES crafting, can basically handle it now.  I know people that seriously just play the game for crafting and decorating their houses.  You can say  bye-bye to them.</div><div> </div><div>I feel for you guys. </div>

[Thicket Tundrabog]

I like the upcoming tradeskill changes. I'll even go farther than that. Tradeskilling has been improving since EQ2 launch, especially the elimination of interdependence. The numerous sub-combines are a chore. I'd much prefer single, final combines. It's just a whole lot more fun.Example -- a guildie gives me 8 rare Tier V pelts a couple of extracts and asks for a full set of armor, one other piece and two imbued items. I have all the raws, and many of the WORTS. It takes me 1.5 hours to finish the 8 pieces with my level 60 tailor going throughmany subcombines. I don't mind doing it, but it's quite a timesink. With the changes, it'll be much quicker.I dinged my fifth level 60 tradeskiller last night. I've got a level 54 and level 46 as well. I'm a hard-core tradeskiller and will succeed at tradeskilling regardless of the system. (I was a member of the EQ1 1750 club for those that know what this means).I also love change. I suspect that much of the negative reaction is a natural result of folks resisting change. If the current tradeskill system had single, final combines only, and SoE was changing it to a system with sub-combines, you'd get the same negative reaction if not more. It's human nature.<div></div>

[Xanoth]

<div></div><div></div><p>im sure its clear to msot of us now (take a look at star wars galaxies), that when sony notices a problem an after years of players spamming them with reports of the problem, they evetually act.  but why take a step in the right direction when they can shove a rocket up their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and over shoot the mark by a few thousand miles.</p><p> </p><p>one of the biggest issues thats guna be left here is harvesting, so i'd imagine to fix this we'll get 100 harvests per node, and they'll respawn 2 nodes for every one thats harvested, you jsut have to click a node to harvest... no more double clicking for you, and all harvests are instant...  /sigh</p><p> </p><p>i dont mind harvesting myself, but unly if its a relaxed "i'm off on a rare hunt" kinda harvest, the frustration of trying to get a certain amount of any particular resource is just too much to cope with, especially in over farmed or over populated zones.  and with only two t6 harvesting zones, compared with the 4 t5 harvest zones... it's hardly fun harvesting during peak play times.</p><p>as for crafting, im certainly bitter, i just spent hours this week getting my thaumaturgy, binding, geomancy and woodcraft up from 50-100 all the way to max at 300/300.  so to find out this might have been a big waste of time is hardly greadt news, but its not like i've been told spending two years to become a jedi was a waste of time and that all new players can be jedi if they want to be.</p><p>so i'm off to log onto the test server and /feedback my views on the matter, as thats the only way they get to know them.</p><p> </p><p>EDIT : the /feedback will be after i've tested it... just to clarify. i wana see how it works out before i go moan... not that irritable today <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:20 PM</span></p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>Not much really to test in this regard, pick a recipe item, insert the rares that were formally required to produce the recipe in total, worts and sub-combines, add fuel and craft item.  Done.</p><p>(btw, after this is implimented, whos going to care that it used to take 2roots, 2 wood, and 1gem to make a spell as a sage,  you will  have just made the requirements completely arbitrary, may as well have whatever ingredients you want for the recipes because no one will care.)</p><p> </p>

[LadyEternity]

<div></div><p>I love crafting. In most games I play, I go down the crafting road. I reallly realllllllly like it. The sense of accomplishment when you make something yourself is keen! And I realllllly like it when I can use the things I create when I adventure. That being said, I am also a casual gamer. I DO NOT have 3-4 hours a day to stand infront of the crafting bench, and STILL have the time to play. I have left this game three times now. Three. What was the main reason for leaving? Because I didn't like the fact that I had to be chained to a work bench for hours and hours on end just to make enough food and drink to actually PLAY the game, never mind any of the other crafts I would love to try. Keep in mind I have always played on Test. My live characters don't see much action. On test you have to be pretty self sufficient.</p><p>The crafting system in EQ2 from the beginning was a punishing, boring, stale, irritating piece of work. It is a shining example of how games that have to much *realism* kill the fun. It almost reminded me of a mod for Morrowind, that made your character have to go to the bathroom. It was neat and all right up until the tenth time your adventuring was interrupted, then  you switched the mod off because it was a pain. We play games to have fun, not be bored out of our skulls from having to do mundane silly things. Leave the mundane to real life, and the fun to the game, and do NOT mix them. One step combines for crafting is grand. They should have done it along time ago. *claps for SOE finally getting a clue*.</p><p> </p><p>Blacksabbath</p>

[Bleusong]

...this is worst idea yet...eql tsing was so much harder..i think most will realize..when you have to go on finished products..having to lvl on that will turn you off..p.s. i think crafting is TOO easy right now as is. by the time you hit 25, it's same recipies over and over and over just diferent tiers..actually by the time you hit 15.<div></div>

[Moriga]

<div></div><p>I agree that the system has been difficult, might have been better in the early days of interdependancy if they had just made all the items available on the broker at a higher price then what the item could be made and sold for by a crafter.  This would have capped the prices in effect on crafted items and still allowed crafters to craft and make a profit.  It would also have made all sub materials available so if no one made what you needed you could still craft.  Instead, we went to secondary skills.</p><p>At this point I have spent a ton of money and time learning geomancy, binding, alchemy and woodcrafting on my various toons.  All a complete waste of time and money.  I am sure I will not be reinbursed for the off skill books I bought and no longer need.</p><p>My other concerns are:  With one combine to make one spell, how exactly do we level?  The thousands of Adept 1's in game have long since ruined the market for any spell crafter or combat skill maker. </p><p> With no subcombines, no rare poisons and no rare ink, and no need for Apprentice 4 combat arts, what does an alchemist do now? </p><p>I also, sadly notice that T6 carpenter books do not appear in 19b. Does that mean that there is a 19c or is it simple confirmation that we are not going to get new stuff till the expansion?</p><p>I am reaching the point where it is almost painful to come here.  I hate to log my toon on to test after reading the update notes.  The concept of the pure crafter was the big attraction to EQ 2 for me.  Carpentry and my house being my favorite.  I didn't mind making wood, then planing it, then making that new bed.  While being able to batch process the lumber would have been awesome I am not sure I like it this simplified. </p><p>Will the xp for that single combine equal the xp from all the combines necessary to make the item? Will you get a level from making your first T7 item as it would represent discovery xp for all the subcombines and the final?  Will it take a root per wort now since we will no longer be getting 3 for 1 of them? </p><p>Would love to get some answers here from someone on test higher level in crafting then my baby toon.</p><p>thanks,</p><p>Morgaine</p>

[Tirga]

Here is an Idea, Instead of taking this path, why not just make "batch" subcomponant receipes?Batch Paper, Batch Inks, Batch WORT's, maybe 5-10 at a time.Take your 5 roots, 5 waters and 5 fuels, bang, Done 20 Gerum Washes.All you'd have to do is add 4 books per tier, batch Thaumaturgy, Batch Woodcraft etc.I'll add my plea here, don't make it into a 1 step combine.<div></div>

[Sorentio]

<div></div>You don't know that it's going to take more finals to gain a level.  You don't know that it's going to be quicker to craft a final now than before.  It could be that they'll up the xp on the final recipes, and triple the progress required for pristine, to make it the exact amount of xp and time required as before.

[Vulking]

<div>___________________</div><div>Sorentio wrote:</div><div> </div><div>You don't know that it's going to take more finals to gain a level.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">Your right they may up the exp gained for final combines.</font></div><div> </div><div> You don't know that it's going to be quicker to craft a final now than before.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66ff00">Umm, based on whats on test now, yeah it will be. (A lot quicker!)</font></div><div> </div><div> It could be that they'll up the xp on the final recipes, and triple the progress required for pristine, to make it the exact amount of xp and time required as before.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">Possibly. but not likely. It would make it even more tedious to craft than it is now. </font></div><div> </div><div>___________________</div><div> </div><div><font color="#66cc00">The fact is, these changes reduce the immersion quality (what little of it there is), to the crafting process.  Presently, you at least feel like you are making something because you have understand that a chair requires, legs, bracing, and padding.  With the change, a couple of twigs and a root or two and *poof* instant chair.</font></div>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Morigana wrote:<div></div><p> With no subcombines, no rare poisons and no rare ink, and no need for Apprentice 4 combat arts, what does an alchemist do now? </p><hr></blockquote> <font color="#6633cc" size="3"><em>The devs said that they will keep rare potions in now.</em></font>

[Dezertol]

As for myself.. I'm 29 in real life and due to a friend I started playing EQ2.. This being my first, and at present my only MMO i've ever plaied. For that matter the only other online games i've ever plaied are FPS (first person shooters)..  I found the crafting part of this game to be more fun then the adventure part, so much so I bought the station pass so that I could have 9 chars.. one for each artisan subclass most of them are lvl 30-40 now as it's been a year... and I only have one adventure. lvl 37 Ranger mostly used to harvist for my hungry artisans, I can see that removing the first steps.. on some items would be a good thing however.. so many of the items work with each other, in a way that makes it easy to keep going.. for example.. when I hit lvl 20 I make a couple hundred washes, resins, oils, and tempers.. then a couple hundered, refined bars or refined leathers this process usually sees me well in to lvl x4 and even x5 of that tier. then I just make the "finished" goods to level out of that Tier.  I'm am downloading the test stuff as I type this as I'm not one to just jump on board and start railing.. however I must admit that based on what others are saying.. I'm a little consirend that it will take away from the expirence.. (not XP) but the actualy expirence. I don't care so much about the levels or the money.. Trade skill is a game with in a game.. and It would be a shame to make it a drop a bunch of this and that into a box.. go get a hotdog, and poof instant stuff.  I also agree that it will flood the market with stuff that is cheaper to sell to venders or stuff I have to just distroy because it's of no real value and is just taking up space. I can see making stuff like drinks and chem stuff that is used and goes away, one time use stuff.. eaiser to craft but things like armor and items for you apt.. stuff that will last your whole tier or the life of the game needs to retain at least some of the complexity.  On my Armor I have 280 tempers and 120 paddings a bunch of chain I was planning on making 10 full suits of chain armer half for the guild and half to sell.  Unlike some of my guild members who camp named mobs for drops they can sell I prefer to craft for stuff I can sell, I've never been one for just random slottering.. and I never had to "grind" (i beleve the term is) just killing stuff that you don't have a quest for seems lame.  If the changes that is seems people are talking about go in place where it's no longer a process.... no longer an actuall.. class or a job.. then all you have left is the adventrue part of the game, which is pritty cool.. but it's not why I play EQ2Thanks for all the fun I have had tho and I'm hopefull that it's not as bad as they're saying.. still have 6 hours on the download so well soon find out.....Blackburrow Oric lvl 37 Ranger lvl 39 Weaponsmith<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div>for those coming in Late:</div><div> </div><div>For complete TS Dev statements on the upcoming changes, please see</div><div> </div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-18-06 5:31 PM]</font></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif"></div>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>EQ2 is hardly the model all others follow. In fact, it's the game that was modeled after all the others. 95% of the things in EQ2 were taken from other games. If anyone has ever followed, beta tested or played other games, you would see it. I have beta tested about 15 games in the last 9 years and when I beta tested EQ2, I saw a LOT of stuff from other games, even games that were already in beta and close to release.</p><p>Other games are totally 100% different from EQ2 and are more popular so don't try making EQ2 out to be more than it is.</p><p>EQ2 has it's following because of EQ1. I just wish they would have incorporated a lot more of the successful and popular things of EQ1.</p><p>I just wish they had taken the crafting system from another game to begin with and I am glad they are changing it.</p><p>I went well beyond 9 in crafting. I know the painfulness of the crafting system in this game. It was hardly fun.</p><p>I have crafted in every game I have ever played that had a good crafting system. I did in UO, I didn't in EQ because in the beginning, it wasn't worth it (until years afterward) and the one that was worth it, took a LOT of plat to build up. I did in SWG and WoW but didn't here because I didn't like being tortured and feel like I was working a 2nd job.</p><p>Obviously everyone has their own view on what is fun.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:41 PM</span></p>

[Bellina]

<div><span></span><span><blockquote><hr>jasonqdavis wrote:<div></div><p>Nah make it even easier than that.  Just have our abilities at their full power from the beginning instead of having to buy the level ups</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote></span>That's not a bad idea actually. 8 levels of the same spell is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Spell power should be gauged by character level/stats or something, not the freakin scroll. I can see the logic for different degrees of quality on physical items like armor, weapons, furniture, etc. but for a spell scroll? Either you can read it or you can't. The quality of the ink or the paper or the quill is irrelevant.Screw the economy. I hate the whole idea of an economy in a video game anyway. It's become too much of a distraction to what a video game is about. If I want to play at buying and selling, I'd be a stock broker or a day trader. It doesn't belong in a fantasy role-playing game, period. Crafting doesn't either really, but I have less of a problem with that than buying and selling. Hell, take away the buying and selling aspect and you just solved one of the biggest, if not the biggest problem in online game: farmers.</div>

[Raveller]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Valdacil wrote:<div></div><div>This will inundate the market with product, bottoming out the prices on many non-rare products. <hr></div></blockquote>Which server do you play on? On LD, we could really use a flood of affordable player-made goods.

[Solkarr]

<div></div><p>Something to consider about one step combines...</p><p>People have argued the monotony of making subs, and people have argued the monotony of making 60 copyies of the same final product to level... leveling will ALWAYS be monotonous at times, and when you are having a good day a level will sneak up on you and give you a nice surprise, just because you are crafting for friends/money/fun. </p><p>This change will not change the monotony of leveling.</p><p>This change WILL fix the amount of time it takes me to whip up a set of armor for a customer/guildie/alt.</p><p>This change WILL fix the lack of crafters willing to make low level gear/spells... just think.  Right now I have a level 60 armorer, and someone asks me if I can make them a suit of carbonite armor... a full suit, from scratch (since I have no T3 stuff still banked) is going to take me 2 to 3 hours.  They expect to pay me 10-15 gold total for the full suit of armor, maybe 20-25 if its imbued.  I can either buy raws off the market, and spend ALL of the money they want to pay me for the armor, and thus work for 3 hours for free, or I can go harvest for an hour, and then craft for 3 hours... at the end, I get handed 15 gold for MANY hours worth of effort...</p><p>Its no wonder most high level crafters refuse to make low level gear, and thus it is NEVER for sale unless someone is leveling a new crafter, and even then rarely, because they just sell back to the merchant to save space in their inventory.</p><p>In the new system someone asks me to make a suit of carbonite armor... it will take me exactly 7 combines... maybe 15 minutes tops if I have bad luck, but since its a grey recipe, it is more likely to take under 10 minutes.  Crafters WILL do this kind of thing when people ask.  I know I would.  Heck, I would stock some armor for the lower tiers for sale all the time(especially with bigger house vaults!!!!) just because it would be super easy to make.</p><p>This change removes none of the tedium of leveling, but ALL of the tedium of making something when you are asked to make a specific order.   The only two true downsides are a reduction in realism... (although it was already totally fake if you want to be nitpicky... making a full suit of plate armor doesn't take 3 hours, it takes 3 days to 3 years, depending if you want crude field plate, or ornate parade armor for a noble) and the requirement to harvest loam. </p><p>I would have left gems as the requirement for all spells instead of splitting it off into harvested loams, but thats a tiny part of the changes.  I would actually like to see MORE kinds of things to harvest, which would allow crafters other than jewelers to have stat options when crafting... either 2 kinds of rare metal for armor, or some extra (common) items which I have the option of throwing into the mix to change the final stats on my armor (and weapons, and jewelry, and charms).  Food has a  full selection of stats, and now jewelry has a selection of stats(t6 and above, but still...) bring this to the other professions too =)</p><p> </p><p>BUT over all, the current changes on test will bring in a few more crafters (lots of new people the first 2-3 weeks, but then a lot will stop.  Plus a lot of current serious crafters will make more crafter alts).  Which is a good thing.  It will also make it more likely to get low level combines done by high level crafters, which is VERY good... its practically impossible to get gear made below level 30, unless you are willing to pay huge (10-20g per item) crafter fees.</p><p> </p><p>Solkarr (57 guardian/9artisan)</p><p>Quintin (18 warrior/60 armorer)</p><p>Rraklos (52 warlock/9artisan)</p><p>(and yes, I would like to raise those level 9 artisans into something useful, once this change goes live!  It will be fun!)</p>

[SirWolven2]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Solkarr wrote:<div></div><p>Something to consider about one step combines...</p><p>People have argued the monotony of making subs, and people have argued the monotony of making 60 copyies of the same final product to level... leveling will ALWAYS be monotonous at times, and when you are having a good day a level will sneak up on you and give you a nice surprise, just because you are crafting for friends/money/fun. </p><p>This change will not change the monotony of leveling.</p><p>This change WILL fix the amount of time it takes me to whip up a set of armor for a customer/guildie/alt.</p><p>This change WILL fix the lack of crafters willing to make low level gear/spells... just think.  Right now I have a level 60 armorer, and someone asks me if I can make them a suit of carbonite armor... a full suit, from scratch (since I have no T3 stuff still banked) is going to take me 2 to 3 hours.  They expect to pay me 10-15 gold total for the full suit of armor, maybe 20-25 if its imbued.  I can either buy raws off the market, and spend ALL of the money they want to pay me for the armor, and thus work for 3 hours for free, or I can go harvest for an hour, and then craft for 3 hours... at the end, I get handed 15 gold for MANY hours worth of effort...</p><p>Its no wonder most high level crafters refuse to make low level gear, and thus it is NEVER for sale unless someone is leveling a new crafter, and even then rarely, because they just sell back to the merchant to save space in their inventory.</p><p>In the new system someone asks me to make a suit of carbonite armor... it will take me exactly 7 combines... maybe 15 minutes tops if I have bad luck, but since its a grey recipe, it is more likely to take under 10 minutes.  Crafters WILL do this kind of thing when people ask.  I know I would.  Heck, I would stock some armor for the lower tiers for sale all the time(especially with bigger house vaults!!!!) just because it would be super easy to make.</p><p>This change removes none of the tedium of leveling, but ALL of the tedium of making something when you are asked to make a specific order.   The only two true downsides are a reduction in realism... (although it was already totally fake if you want to be nitpicky... making a full suit of plate armor doesn't take 3 hours, it takes 3 days to 3 years, depending if you want crude field plate, or ornate parade armor for a noble) and the requirement to harvest loam. </p><p>I would have left gems as the requirement for all spells instead of splitting it off into harvested loams, but thats a tiny part of the changes.  I would actually like to see MORE kinds of things to harvest, which would allow crafters other than jewelers to have stat options when crafting... either 2 kinds of rare metal for armor, or some extra (common) items which I have the option of throwing into the mix to change the final stats on my armor (and weapons, and jewelry, and charms).  Food has a  full selection of stats, and now jewelry has a selection of stats(t6 and above, but still...) bring this to the other professions too =)</p><p> </p><p>BUT over all, the current changes on test will bring in a few more crafters (lots of new people the first 2-3 weeks, but then a lot will stop.  Plus a lot of current serious crafters will make more crafter alts).  Which is a good thing.  It will also make it more likely to get low level combines done by high level crafters, which is VERY good... its practically impossible to get gear made below level 30, unless you are willing to pay huge (10-20g per item) crafter fees.</p><p> </p><p>Solkarr (57 guardian/9artisan)</p><p>Quintin (18 warrior/60 armorer)</p><p>Rraklos (52 warlock/9artisan)</p><p>(and yes, I would like to raise those level 9 artisans into something useful, once this change goes live!  It will be fun!)</p><hr></blockquote>Well said.  I completely agree.

[Amytheyst]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Solkarr wrote:<div></div><p>Something to consider about one step combines...</p><p>People have argued the monotony of making subs, and people have argued the monotony of making 60 copyies of the same final product to level... leveling will ALWAYS be monotonous at times, and when you are having a good day a level will sneak up on you and give you a nice surprise, just because you are crafting for friends/money/fun. </p><p><font color="#cc0000">This change will not change the monotony of leveling.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0000">This change WILL fix the amount of time it takes me to whip up a set of armor for a customer/guildie/alt.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0000">This change WILL fix the lack of crafters willing to make low level gear/spells... just think.  Right now I have a level 60 armorer, and someone asks me if I can make them a suit of carbonite armor... a full suit, from scratch (since I have no T3 stuff still banked) is going to take me 2 to 3 hours.  They expect to pay me 10-15 gold total for the full suit of armor, maybe 20-25 if its imbued.  I can either buy raws off the market, and spend ALL of the money they want to pay me for the armor, and thus work for 3 hours for free, or I can go harvest for an hour, and then craft for 3 hours... at the end, I get handed 15 gold for MANY hours worth of effort...</font></p><p><font color="#cc0000">Its no wonder most high level crafters refuse to make low level gear, and thus it is NEVER for sale unless someone is leveling a new crafter, and even then rarely, because they just sell back to the merchant to save space in their inventory.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0000">In the new system someone asks me to make a suit of carbonite armor... it will take me exactly 7 combines... maybe 15 minutes tops if I have bad luck, but since its a grey recipe, it is more likely to take under 10 minutes.  Crafters WILL do this kind of thing when people ask.  I know I would.  Heck, I would stock some armor for the lower tiers for sale all the time(especially with bigger house vaults!!!!) just because it would be super easy to make.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0000">This change removes none of the tedium of leveling, but ALL of the tedium of making something when you are asked to make a specific order.   The only two true downsides are a reduction in realism... (although it was already totally fake if you want to be nitpicky... making a full suit of plate armor doesn't take 3 hours, it takes 3 days to 3 years, depending if you want crude field plate, or ornate parade armor for a noble) and the requirement to harvest loam. </font></p><p>I would have left gems as the requirement for all spells instead of splitting it off into harvested loams, but thats a tiny part of the changes.  I would actually like to see MORE kinds of things to harvest, which would allow crafters other than jewelers to have stat options when crafting... either 2 kinds of rare metal for armor, or some extra (common) items which I have the option of throwing into the mix to change the final stats on my armor (and weapons, and jewelry, and charms).  Food has a  full selection of stats, and now jewelry has a selection of stats(t6 and above, but still...) bring this to the other professions too =)</p><p> </p><p><font color="#cc0000">BUT over all, the current changes on test will bring in a few more crafters (lots of new people the first 2-3 weeks, but then a lot will stop.  Plus a lot of current serious crafters will make more crafter alts).  Which is a good thing.  It will also make it more likely to get low level combines done by high level crafters, which is VERY good... its practically impossible to get gear made below level 30, unless you are willing to pay huge (10-20g per item) crafter fees.</font></p><p> </p><p>Solkarr (57 guardian/9artisan)</p><p>Quintin (18 warrior/60 armorer)</p><p>Rraklos (52 warlock/9artisan)</p><p>(and yes, I would like to raise those level 9 artisans into something useful, once this change goes live!  It will be fun!)</p><hr></blockquote>None of the opponents want to admit this, nor would it seem they care. Alot of the reasons these changes are being made are summed up in those 2 paragraphs. Well said.I'm just riding through with the popcorn now, some of the screaming warrants some attention, if only to fire up the violin music.</span></div>

[MaldekTM]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>This change is for all the <strong>DUMB</strong> people out there that really think milk comes from a store.  Simplifying this game to function like aspects of WoW is just as dumb as the people they are doing it for.</p><p>Sorry to sound so bold about this, but crafting should be tedious, it should be hard, not everyone should not be a crafter and just because you got your whiny little character past level 12 to outfitter, shouldn't give you the right to even ask for changes.</p><p>Level 4 characters to 60 in crafting and I may, <strong>MAY,</strong> respect your opinion on this matter, but then if you did do that, i doubt seriously you had any major issues with crafting at all.  Otherwise you would have given it up long ago.</p><p>The point is, this change is purely to feed the masses more "soylent green", not really make crafting more interesting.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I must completely agree 100% with this post and take it one step further: what level is Beghn's live crafting toon?  From the sounds of his replies, he's hamfisting the system to his own haphazard wishes.  "Oh it's boring to make spells, I think I'll just remove all the doo-hickeys and have it come right out of the dirt"   Just harvest and voila, you've got yourself a magic spell.  Look what I found under this rock, why I think I could turn this piece of quartz into an Ice Comet with just the press of the Combine key, thanks to Beghn!</p><p> </p><p>This proposed change is really just unbelievable.  SOE is known for dumbing things down as time goes on.  Everything always starts out hard, the power-gamers bang their heads against the wall until they bleed uberness, then some time passes and the powers-that-be scale things down to normal-person difficulty.  That not withstanding, this change as proposed appears to present more problems than it solves.  Given the scarcity of harvesting nodes, especially T6+, everyone and their grandmother are going to be spending more time fighting over harvesting nodes instead of interacting peacefully in the tradeskill instances.  Plus there'll be the diminishment of craftable items; instead of a Tailor making cords, harnesses, straps, threads, yarns, etc, they'll just go out, harvest elbow-to-elbow with the rest of the server, throw a bunch of pelts and dirt into the loom, PRESTO a robe will come out.  Amazing, truely.  </p><p> </p><p>This change is uncalled for and is only going to create problems.  There won't be enough harvestables.  There will be too little variety of craftable items.  The repetitive nature of crafting will only INCREASE if subcomponents are removed.   If anything, the crafting community needs MORE variety, more items, more subcomponents, more things to make.  This change will effectively give the crafting community LESS to make.  </p><p> </p><p>What exactly IS the complaint about crafting?  I myself have almost no qualms with the system as is exactly at this moment in time.  I have some problems with some of the finished items themselves, but that stems mostly from the art department still not making a cambric robe graphic after 6 months.  But aside from that, who is complaining?  Beghn?  Is it too hard for him?  Was the system, designed by another developer, perhaps one with more depth and understanding of the finer nuances of keeping a crafting community satisfied, was he too confused to keep up with it ?  Why is this change neccessary?  There are more than enough crafters on any given server, the community-at-large is not hurting for more players.  Yet, almost a year and half after release, we're going to change the WHOLE THING and make it look alot more like another game currently available from Blizzard Entertainment...  so, this BEGS the question, which game is BEGHN logging into when he's not at work?</p><p> </p><p>This is a change for dumb people.  Please don't be one of them Beghn. </p>

[Bor]

This is such a ridiculous change to the crafting system, but I guess it's SOE so I shouldn't be surprised. They did the same thing to EQ1 tradeskills.To those people who are naive enough to believe this will drop prices. Wake up to yourselves. Crafters don't set the prices, harvesters do. In fact, it is more likely that prices will rise. Same amount of harvested rares coming into the game, but there will be more crafters buying the rares up so harvesters can charge extortionist prices. You can't seriously expect people to sell their crafted items for less than the rare sells for now can you.<div></div>

[actaeus]

<div></div><p>this is a joke, please dont change the crafting to this simplified version, i just got the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] station pass so i could have one of each crafter but if crafting is gonna change this much then it was pointless for me to get the station pass, because i refuse to play a game that they continue to make easier so the [Removed for Content] 8 year olds will leave WoW for eq2</p><p>bah!</p>

[Lavenderboi]

<div></div><div></div><div> <p>I once knew a Dwarf.  He was a likeable fellow, with bright red hair and a beard to match.  His lifelong dream was to one day become a high level Fury!  He was young and idealistic back then!  He trained hard as a priest and one proud day, achieved the rank of Druid!  He continued his training without fail, and eventually achieved his dream.<span>  </span>The Grand title of Fury, was bestowed upon him!  He vowed on this day, to become a powerful and well respected Fury of high rank! </p><p>One morning, he took a break from his training and went window shopping.<span>  </span>He was anxious to see all the future items he would one day be able to use, as his level increased.  He was stunned at the prices of those rare and wonderful Adept 3 spells.  How would he ever afford them?  Then he discovered that the Legendary armor was also terribly expensive.  He began to worry.  He needed these items, if he was to see his dream to completion.  He decided that he would become a Sage so that he could make his own Adept 3's!  Maybe, he could even make a little side money, to supplement his finances until he was able to afford the best armor also. </p><p>He jumped into crafting whole heartedly!  He began by harvesting.  He harvested and harvested and harvested.  It was actually quite fun and the occasional rare made it even more worthwhile.  He made stacks and stacks of oils.  Then he made stacks and stacks of resins.  Then he made stacks and stacks of washes.  He combined and combined and combined.<span>  </span>He made stacks of inks, parchment and quills.  He drank countless cups of coffee, ordered dozens and dozens of pizzas.  He spent hours, days, weeks, even months making these spells.  He put his hard earned App 4’s on the market, but only the Adept 3's brought any real money into his coin purse.  He managed to make himself a few Adept 3's but was usually too busy crafting, to actually use them.  Friends would call, "Let's go adventure!"  "I cannot" he would sigh, “I must make more resins.”<span>  </span>Gradually, he began to despise crafting, casting the same few spells over and over, with little coin to show for his effort.  He began to craft less and less.  He began to adventure less and less.  It seemed as though he was losing his will to do much of anything.  </p><p>One day, he decided to craft, because he had purchased chocolate covered coffee beans in an effort to stay awake during the boredom, and wanted to see how they worked.<span>  </span>He suddenly realized that he had run out of a component.<span>  </span>He went upstairs to the wholesaler and there he was.<span>  </span>A newbie Barbarian.<span>  </span>The dwarf had taught him how to do a HO a month or so ago.<span>  </span>“How are you!”<span>  </span>smiled the dwarf.<span>  </span>“I’m great!”<span>  </span>replied the Barbarian.<span>  </span>“Thank you again for helping me with Heroic Opportunities!”<span>  </span>“My pleasure, have they gotten easier for you?”<span>  </span>The Barbarian did not answer, he just looked at the Dwarf.<span>  </span>It was then, that the Dwarf realized that this newbie, was 22 levels his senior.<span>  </span>The Dwarf was shocked and a bit annoyed.<span>  </span>“Uhm, so what are you buying anyway?”<span>  </span>This was the wrong question to ask, as it turned out the Barbarian was buying six rares to have some Adept 3’s made.<span>  </span>SIX of them!<span>  </span>He made his purchase, then when he asked the Dwarf if he’d make the spells, the Dwarf lied, and said he was too busy.<span>  </span>The Barbarian said goodbye and departed.<span>  </span>The dwarf immediately checked the market and was shocked to learn how much plat this “newbie” had just spent.<span>  </span>Shocked because he himself did not possess that kind of money.<span>   </span></p><p><span></span>The next day, depressed and irritated, he decided that he needed a change of scenery.  He said "To hell with crafting today, I desire adventure!"  He strapped on his armor (he read that he should craft naked), and set out.  He found a group and he did something he had not done for ages.  He healed his party, he buffed, he debuffed, he ran, he zoned to new lands, he won treasure!  He LIVED!  That night, he made a solemn vow, he would never craft again and, selling stacks of partially finished items, he never did. </p><p>Since then, the Dwarf has leveled to a very high and respectable level.  His bank account went from 1 or 2 platinum to over 15 platinum, simply from selling the loot drops, Master Spells and Fabled items he could not use!  He continued to harvest, which he enjoyed and could make a nice sum of gold from selling stacks of harvested items to crafters, not to mention selling the rares he could not use.<span>  </span>He now pays Artisans to make his Adept 3's and his Legendary Armor.  He admits feeling guilty paying some poor soul to spend their time, sitting in the same room, casting the same spells for mediocre coin.  The Dwarf now lives life to the fullest!  His only regret, was the months he wasted crafting.  There are times, when he is alone, that he wonders what life would have been like, if only the Gods had made the art of crafting a bit easier.<span></span></p><p><span>Edited to break up into paragraphs.  Sorry for not doing that before, but I was distracted by my delicious Swiss cheese sandwich.....swiss cheese, now where did I hear that before?  =)</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Lavenderboi on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p>

[Pashta]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Lavenderboi wrote:<div></div><div> <p> His only regret, was the months he wasted crafting.  There are times, when he is alone, that he wonders what life would have been like, if only the Gods had made the art of crafting a bit easier.<span></span></p><p><span></span> </p></div><hr></blockquote><p> Very nice little anecdote.  It would be a whole lot easier to read with some paragraphs put in there, though!  LOL.  This is why the tradeskill system needs revamped.  It doesn't need to go from making 20+ items for 1 item to making only the 1 item.  It needs to go to maybe making 4 items to make 1 item.</p><p> </p><p>edit: grammar correction</p><p>Message Edited by Pashta on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:28 AM</span></p>

[Vulking]

<div></div><div>_______________________</div><div> </div><div>Pashta wrote:</div><div> </div><div>Very nice little anecdote.  It would be a whole lot easier to read with some paragraphs put in there, though!  LOL.  This is why the tradeskill system needs revamped.  It doesn't need to go from making 20+ items for 1 item to making only the 1 item.  It needs to go to maybe making 4 items to make 1 item.<p>_______________________</p><p>I wouldn't go as simplistic as you, but you have the right idea. </p><p>Had SoE chosen to go the route of moderation versus wild swings in either direction based on who knows what information, it might have been acceptable to the crafters who like the immersion aspect of the current crafting. </p><p>Other things like stacks of 100 instead of 20, and batch processing for subs, would have gone a long way to finding a middle ground  between the casual crafter and the long term ones.</p></div><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p>

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote:<div> </div><div><p>I wouldn't go as simplistic as you, but you have the right idea.  AND, had SoE chosen to go the route of moderation versus wild swings in either direction based on who know what information, it might have been palateable to the crafters who like the immersion aspect of the current crafting.  Other things like stacks of 100 instead of 20 and batch processing for subs, would have gone a long way to finding a middle ground and a common ground between the casual crafter and the long term ones.</p></div><hr></blockquote> Stacks of 100 are in testing right now, aren't they?

[Vulking]

<div>let me check.</div>

[Bor]

I'm intrigued. Why does the crafting system <b>have</b> to be revamped? Thousands of crafters have used the current system and the one before it (dependancies et al). Why does it <b>have</b> to be changed to encourage non-crafters to take it up? Not everyone quests, does that need revamping? Not everyone does instances, does that? Not everyone harvests, do we need changes? So why is crafting singled out to become "idiot proofed" to use a term I saw in another thread. Especially when crafting classes were originally meant to be an alternative path to adventuring classes.As for that anecdote, there's so many holes in that story, it looks like swiss cheese.<div></div>

[Tirga]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Pashta wrote:<p> Very nice little anecdote.  It would be a whole lot easier to read with some paragraphs put in there, though!  LOL.  This is why the tradeskill system needs revamped.  It doesn't need to go from making 20+ items for 1 item to making only the 1 item.  It needs to go to maybe making 4 items to make 1 item.</p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>I agree entirely, at the very least perhaps just use roots and raw gems to make gems, or wood and roots etc to make each of the 1 sub-combines. Then one final?<div></div>

[Vulking]

<div>I can only stack fuel, no raws, or subs.</div>

[Pashta]

<div>Well, they're halfway there.  They will NEED to make them stack in larger stacks for sure if what they plan goes through.  We will need many more raws and I already run out of space in my inventory harvesting as it is.</div>

[Vulking]

<div></div><p>Lets not go overboard and say were halfway anywhere.:smileytongue:</p><p>I still reject these changes wholesale. Stacking components like fuel is a boobie prize.</p>

[MaldekTM]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Borte wrote:I'm intrigued. Why does the crafting system <b>have</b> to be revamped? Thousands of crafters have used the current system and the one before it (dependancies et al). Why does it <b>have</b> to be changed to encourage non-crafters to take it up? Not everyone quests, does that need revamping? Not everyone does instances, does that? Not everyone harvests, do we need changes? So why is crafting singled out to become "idiot proofed" to use a term I saw in another thread. Especially when crafting classes were originally meant to be an alternative path to adventuring classes.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Quoted for truth.  WHY is crafting being changed?  WHAT is the reason for such a drastic modification of the current system?

[Gargamel]

<div></div><p>LOL... SOE... so f'ing stuipid.</p><p>Remember back in the day when a Sage had to get an Alchemist to make a proper tier ink, and a woodworker to make a proper tier paper and quill, just to make a single spell combine and get xp?</p><p>Talk about one side of the spectrem to the other... talk about OVERreaction.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Graypa]

For all those that say these changes will make crafting more interresting, more fun and less tedius, have you ever played a game with the cheat codes enabled? Started off fun didnt it? Grew tiresome really quick though didnt it? Well, your about to recieve the cheat code to crafting, sit back and enjoy it. For a few days anyways. How long will it take to become tedius again? These changes arent neccessary as those that like to craft (call us what you will)) will likely still craft and those that dont will do so for a few days and quit AGAIN. Now the botters and so on will be in hog heaven, absolutely loving these changes. But remember, its extremely hard to catch them so this will be an unfortunate side effect.As an armorer I really dread these changes as I stated once before. Alot of recipes and I mean alot will need to be added after all the subs are gone. Subs helped a ton more then the final recipes to leveling as an armorer.Darthiir Khaliss 60th lvl armorer of AB<div></div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div>Well we can all speculate on what is going to happen can't we.  Also why not do something to bring others who don't like crafting not because they don't like crafting but because the current system is terrible to them?   I'm going to hold my final judgement to when they finally put the new crafting system in to the test server and see if, say your right and its too much or that I like it and would be more willing to craft with the new system.  If anything from what I've seen the test center if anything else has gotten alot of people who don't normally post to speak up for what they believe.

[Petrogly]

<div></div>So I guess if they make all the recipes 1 step with no subcombines that armorcrafters will just have 14 recipes per tier eh.  7 Common items and 7 Legendary ones.  And I thought being an armorer was already boring lol.  I guess I dont really know what boring is.

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Petroglyph wrote:<div></div>So I guess if they make all the recipes 1 step with no subcombines that armorcrafters will just have 14 recipes per tier eh.  7 Common items and 7 Legendary ones.  And I thought being an armorer was already boring lol.  I guess I dont really know what boring is.<hr></blockquote><p>28 recipes - 7 chain 7 plate each common and Legendary <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Not to split hairs or nuthin.</p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:21 PM</span></p>

[Maroger]

<div></div>I wonder what will happen to the rare inks we have sitting in the bank -- will they now be useless along with the rare loams??

[Darwanda]

<div>*SOB*</div><div> </div><div>And I mean that in both respects.  I am a stay at home mom.  I never even thought of online gaming and went several years wondering why the heck my husband was up till 3am before I ventured into this different world and found just that, a different world.  Now I have a whole new outlet before me.  At night my husband and I adventure together and this is our Quality Time.  And it is much better than it ever was before gaming together.</div><div> </div><div>During the day however, I craft.  And it is fabulous because when someone is crawling over my chair or spitting up on my shoulder, nobody is going to die because I had to get up and walk away from the computer.  And I know there are ALOT of people like me.  The crafting chat channel is full of happy people like me who pass their time in a manner they enjoy.</div><div> </div><div>Happy people who don't like to craft pay me to do it for them.  I try to charge a fair price and often make things for only fuel cost to true "newbies" who can't afford the little things that make like easier (bags, bags, bags.) I'm fine with this. </div><div> </div><div>I really know nothing about who the Developers are or if this game is becoming WoW2 or any of that.  I just know this - You don't kill an ant hill with nuclear bomb.</div><div> </div><div>You want to fix crafting?</div><div> </div><div>1.  Batch Combines.... I don't care what I have to quest or how much, if any, exp I get for batch combines.  Even if I have to wait until a recipe is green or gray to me, batch combines will make a BIG BIG difference.</div><div> </div><div>2. For gods sakes get rid of the Bot Farmers.  I spent 2 hours in Feerrott with 2 guildies foraging and we found less than 6 root nodes among us.  They pick it clean with their 3rd party programs and then charge 60s a piece on the market hawking out "cheap cheap" during their relentless auction in every channel imaginable.</div><div> </div><div>3.  Shut down the rare thieves.  There are no less than 4 crafters on AB who are wrecking the system by stealing rares and gold out of trusting people.  Sure any jerk can lie and make a report against someone for something that didn't happen.  But seriously don't you think it's odd that "Foolnumber50" just gave 6 rare pelts/gems/metals and 25 gold to "Reported50timesRareThief" out of the pure generosity of their heart?  Come on and smell the rotten flesh, no more excuses.  People have been banned for less.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Anyway I can cry and scream for hours and I doubt it will fall on anything but deaf ears.  As far as I know, no major game change has ever been cancelled due to unpopularity and it will be a miracle if this one is.  They've spent too much time on it by now to admit they're making a mistake.  Fact of the matter is adventurers are considered the core of the game and they want cheaper stuff or the ability to make it themselves with the least amount of effort possible.   So still I cry and wish and pray.</div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div>Though I am for the change I will admit this is a trend.  The last person posted that they are paying more attention to the adventurers and that it is their core concern.  Some may say their only concern.  The reason I bring this up is that is the same feelings those who are traders in SWG feel like.  Most if not all of their new content and changes are focused on the adventurers and slowly killing the idea of what the traders are for.  Though I'm hoping this is not what they are doing here.  My hope is that by simplifying the way things are made they can put more effort into making for recipies in for all the different tradeskills.  Thats my hope I guess.

[Pashta]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Darwanda wrote:<div>*SOB*</div><div> </div><div>And I mean that in both respects.  I am a stay at home mom.  I never even thought of online gaming and went several years wondering why the heck my husband was up till 3am before I ventured into this different world and found just that, a different world.  Now I have a whole new outlet before me.  At night my husband and I adventure together and this is our Quality Time.  And it is much better than it ever was before gaming together.</div><div> </div><div>During the day however, I craft.  And it is fabulous because when someone is crawling over my chair or spitting up on my shoulder, nobody is going to die because I had to get up and walk away from the computer.  And I know there are ALOT of people like me.  The crafting chat channel is full of happy people like me who pass their time in a manner they enjoy.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote> Wow, nice to meet you!  It's nice to see another lady just like me online.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I agree with everything you have said and have said the same things myself many times.  Also just like you, I don't think they'll listen.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mattsu]

<div><blockquote><hr>actaeus wrote:<div></div><p>this is a joke, please dont change the crafting to this simplified version, i just got the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] station pass so i could have one of each crafter but if crafting is gonna change this much then it was pointless for me to get the station pass, because i refuse to play a game that they continue to make easier so the [Removed for Content] 8 year olds will leave WoW for eq2</p><p>bah!</p><hr></blockquote>+1</div><div> </div><div>OMG, i'm really sad. I cancelled.  :smileysad:</div><div> </div><div>I will go on a game where crafting is = to adventure (a bit like EQ2 2days ago ! in fact, you started to do it easier when you made people gain more xp)</div><div>i trusted you dev ! :smileymad:</div>

[Dezertol]

<div></div>deaf ears indeed.. It's to bad we can't get every crafter to go on strike or something..  the people that don't craft are the only ones that are going to enjoy this.. they get to sit back and watch all the crafters die off.. because it will be to expensive to buy harvist items.. and to dangerous to take there lvl 5 scout into Feerrott.  I've plaied on the test server and did some crafting.. and I have to admit it's sure is much eaiser to make an app 4 spell.. but come on... This will kill EVERY non adventuring crafter.. totally and completly. You will no longer be able to afford to just craft.  I bought the station pass also to get 9 alts one for each craft. most of them are lvl 30-40 in there respective crafts. As it is.. I can't sell a full suit of plate feyiron armor for more then 1g a peice that's only  7g for the full suit. I've tried playing with the price and anymore then that and it just sits for months at a time..  so either you can get better armer questing (which Im sure has some truth) again making the life of the crafter just lame...  problem is at the moment.... one suit of chain armer takes 14 paddings 1 rings 1 pattern 2 harness and 14 coal..  that brakes down to about 6 roots for 2 paddings, 1 padding = 1 yarn 1 thread 2 wash 1 oil so you need to make wash and oil 1 root each bringing this to about.... 39 roots give or take some 2 extra oils... but on Blackburrow I was paying... between 20s and 45s for ONE tussah Root.. ONE... in effect it cost me on advarage... 30s per root.. 30s x 39 = 1170s That boy's and girls is 11g 70s and I can only sell my armer for about 7g for the full suit.... .... .. I LOST 5g JUST ON ROOTS.... you winers and your "I CAN'T AFFORD GOOD ARMOR".. and you talking about fireing up the violins.. GO PLAY WOWI just checked the market again on BlackBurrow the cheapist Tussah Root is going for 74s and that's not with the 20% broker fee.. so tack 20% on to that.. and your lookin at about 1g each... FOR A ROOT A.. as IN SINGLE AS IN ONE. if I wanted to make a full suit right now.. it would cost me 39G in ROOTS. And that doesn't even touch the other required stuff..  making it all one combine WILL not change this.. only make it harder to get roots.. and more expensive.. and your armer will sell for less then 1g. It will be more cost effective to sell your armor back to the NPC's for 28s each.... and it will cost you 50g to make, while all your guild members camp named for armor drops... which are better then you can make with out the legendary raw's..This change will stop every crafter out there, the second they run the numbers.. I for one Play for the crafting side of it.. I only have one char that is high enough to harvist out side of OakMyst.. cuz they all die in Antonica..PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY RE-CONSIDER THIS CHANGE..<div></div><p>Message Edited by Dezertol on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p>

[Pashta]

<div></div>Dezertol, don't go overboard here... They said that it won't be more raws than you are using right now, just all at once instead of eked out over many items.

[ZeyGnome]

<div>I am looking forward to this change. </div><div> </div><div>As a new player to EQ2, I find the whole crafting thing intriguing, but seriously daunting.  This is the first MMO where I gave up on my crafting.  I just couldn't stand the sheer timesink it was.</div><div> </div><div>Look at it this way, a less cumbersome system = more players.  More players=more subd for SOE.  More subs for SOE means more development.  Otherwise EQ2 could become AC2.</div><div> </div><div>I came from WoW this time.  This system as proposed is still way more immersive than theirs.  The whole Mille Bornes type Hazard/Safety part of crafting and choosing which is more important (Durability, Progress, Sucess) requires thought and quick reactions.</div><div> </div><div>Lots of people are looking at this game from WoW (the more mature players there who cannot stand the b-net mentality there), this would be a huge boon to EQ2.</div><div> </div><div>Testing the Adventure changes, I think it is going in the right direction.  This crafting change proposition also looks to be going in the right direction to appeal to a wider audience.</div><div> </div><div>Do you honestly think SOE would ever try for a niche game?  At the system right is now, that's the best they could hope for.</div><div> </div><div>This game overall (based on the new changes in crafting and adventuring) is still more complex than the other games out there (except for AO.  Talk about a learning curve!) , it just won't be a turn off.</div><div> </div><div>My opinion as a new player who is going to stay based on what I have been seeing.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Dezertol]

My point is not that it takes... 39 roots.. my point is if this change goes in.. aquiring 39 roots will be harder.. and more expensive unless you go get them yourself.... effectivly eleminating every non adventuring class crafter<div></div>

[Pashta]

<div></div>Explain to me why you think the raw prices will change when we won't be using more of them?  It's the same amount or less.  There is no logical reason to think the prices will increase.

[Dezertol]

ok.. take the advarge joe.. lvl 45 .. they make the changes to crafting that make it easier for the umm... "complexity challanged" to craft... there by making it so that more or less anyone can craft what ever they want in like 2 minutes, they might as well add crafting stations all over the map or.. better yet give each player a box that just works like a craftin staion so they can make stuff anywhere..  the players that don't adventure.. will not be able to go harvist there own stuff.. with out dieing a couple hundred time.. and lvl 45 joe is either   A. not sell his harvisted items cuz he can use them   B. Will sell them knowing that more people will buy them which raises the price..Add on top of that.. the number of people that will now be harvisting stuff that didn't before.. means that the raw materials will be harder to come by.. I don't care about the crafting time and I think that some of the sub's (could/need) to go away... but I think that making crafting just a one step "slop in a box" will remove it from being a part of the game.. and I think it will effect the players that only craft to the point where they can no longer afford to craft.. it's bad enough as it is.. with trying to get the right materials without going to get them your self.This will raise the price of raw materials.. that are in high demand.. like Apples or Raw Honey, Tussah Roots.. because people that have money that adventure and get items that will sell  to an NPC for 5g on drop from a regular mob. will be able to take loss to have a good 5 hour drink.. there not curretnly willing to fork out 2-3g for one.. but unless you go get the raw's yourself it costs more then that to make one. If crafting is Idiot proofed then you'll have more crafters which isn't a bad thing mind you.. but if there lvl 60 Guardians and can go and harvest anywhere and hand off to a provisionar alt that just makes stuff for his chars.. the market will take a hit.. and the crafters that don't adventure will fill that impact more then anyone else.. I'm not saying it's perfict as it is.. but I think this is a step or maybe two or three in the wrong direction.. it would be better to add a couple "safe" zones where a lvl 12 scout can harvist lvl 40+ stuff and live to tell about it.. like that area in the enchanted lands where there is very little agro.. if I could get my artisans up high enough in the harvisting skills to go there that would be cool.. but as it is they can't harvist in Antonica or TS without dieing over and over.. or waiting hours and hours for nods to pop in places that are reachable.. by my lower level chars..Because the market is so dynamic.. there is no way to know for sure how it will effect the price of this or that.. but my gut is telling me that my crafters are done crafting because they will no longer be be able to afford the cost of raw's, and they will not be able to turn a profit on selling crafted items. Basically I'll be stuck camping named mobs with the rest of my guild for good gear drops.. even tho I have a lvl 39 armor, a lvl 39 weaponsmith, lvl 40 provisionar, lvl 40 Tailor.. etc...... most of which are less then lvl 15 in the adventrue class.  If the crafting zones turn into ghost towns which is a possibility, then I can see that some of them will be able to make a come back.. but making it easy for everyone who wouldn't normally craft to craft.. is not going to have a positive impact on the market for the people that only craft.<div></div>

[Galn]

<div>Like I said in a different thread... drop the refining of raws and making of WORTs and have only component combines and final combines, skills are suddenly 4 combines not 10 and other items are a lot less tedious but still has some detail and still feels like you are making something when you combine a hilt, crossguard and edge into a sword...</div>

[Dezertol]

I feel like I'm back in high school and the funding for band just got cut because football is more popular.sure you can still learn/make music on your own for your self.. but no one cares.<div></div>

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>This is a live economy, and adventurers still need the finished products. If the prices of raws gets too high for you to be able to sell your final product without a loss raise your prices. THe adventurers will either pay the higher price or offer you raws to help make the product for them. I've stopped buying crafted on the brokers. I ask a crafter how much for an item and will always provide the rares needed. I got an imbued scaled pelt tunic for 10g plus the lambent extract and the scaled pelt. I harvested the pelt and got the extract from the guild vault, exchanged for a lambent stone so our guild crafter who makes the extract could replace the one I took. 10g to the crafter was to cover the cost of the fuels and the rest of the rares. If I tried to buy that same tunic off broker with the 20% fee it would have cost me 4 plats.</p><p>On Faydark there's always level 60 crafters advertising looking for work in /ooc and the heritage channel. On Faydark also most guilds have their own crafters so guild members go to those crafters first. I assume many other servers its the same way where the bulk of adventurers who buy a finished off the broker are those who are unguilded or in a guild whithout a crafter who can make what they need.</p><p>I've only seen high prices on Faydark for plants, rares, and during Frostfell the cost of gold and carbonite went up to over 5g per piece. Most other raws on Faydark when I've checked are under 1s with it being the lower level raws that are higher priced because less are harvesting them. T6 common raws are almost always 1c a piece, even the common root.</p>

[Dezertol]

<div></div>I wish I could buy any raw materials for 1c on BlackBurrow.. it's not a possiblity there.. I don't know if it's to many crafters and not enough gathers.. or what.. but I've checked the last couple days.. and tussah roots T4  are never below 25s and I've seen the lowest priced ones going for 80s at times.. Apples and Raw honey.. expect to pay 1g for each one.  It's crazy.. My guild is not supper active, and there is only a handfull of us, so I try to help out with new gear and food and drinks as often as and they try to help with harvested stuff.. but it's not there focuse.. I don't ask them for anything in return and sometimes they just give me coin just because.. which is nice.. for me I really like the idea that other people are having an eaiser/funner time because of something I made or crafted that they where able to use.  It's not even about the money so long as I have enough to keep going.. It's currenly every expensive to craft from raw's bought on the boards on Blackburrow. I have no idea why but I would love to be able to buy tussah roots for 1c each.. that would rock.. I wouldn't even mind selling the gear for 1g or less. the problem is that if I set it over that (rase my price) as it where they jsut sit on my board for litterly months.. I have stuff from the last tier on there still  trying to sell for 50s and there it sits.. I've sold a large number of items back to the NPC's already for space.. for the newer items hoping that they will sell.. but no.. there they sit..  and I've resorted to leveling up my SK so he can survive in TS long enough to get my harvist skills high enough to get to Feerrot for Tier 5 raw's.. as trying to buy them is a joke, and I think it will get worse after the patch.<div></div>Course I could always win the Lotto that would solve my problems.. current pot on Black burrow is 881 Plat<p>Message Edited by Dezertol on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:48 PM</span></p>

[Tau Nemes]

<div></div><div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">ok.. take the advarge joe.. lvl 45 .. they make the changes to crafting that make it easier for the umm... "complexity challanged" to craft... [..........]if crafting is Idiot proofed then you'll have more crafters which isn't a bad thing mind you..<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana">So, we can imagine a crafting session for the "complexity UNchallenged""..oh I think I am about to make it.....  OH YES! YES!!! I MADE IT! OMG!!! Pristine Stroma Wash!!! ALL BY MYSELF!!  ... (oh I am shaking!)Folks in the guild aren't gonna believe it! (WHAT? not an answer....? again!? What an envious bunch of idiots.... is no wonder they want these recipes removed! I know, WAY too challenging for them!Hey... the complexity and elusiveness of Stroma Wash is too above them! what they would accomplish with their miniature brains anyway?Oh well, let's forget those insignificant people and get back to work.What I need to do now? hmm.... oh Stroma Oil. Oh my, I would never guess it! This system keeps surprising me at every turn! (I hope I can contain the emotion and stop shaking, I need to do my best on this)<i>Ah Stroma Oil, do not think of thyself too elusive for my Art, 'cause I will make thee as pristine as the rays of the sun!!</i>......And so I continue with this wondrous task!--------------------------------------------------------------------.... Sorry I couldn't avoid it! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>(Please take a satire for what it is, and think again about how "complex" is this system; mechanical work is left in real factories to machines....)</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tau Nemesis on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:58 PM</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tau Nemesis on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:09 PM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div>The fact is that, if the sample recipes we've seen are accurate, it will take no more raws to produce a final than it did before.  They're just all in one recipe instead of spread between WORTS and builds.

[Dezertol]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana"><span></span>(Please take a satire for what it is, and think again about how "complex" is this system; mechanical work is left in real factories to machines....)</font><hr></blockquote>lol guess I struck a cord with that one for you to get that worked up about it....... and in case you didn't notice.. there are not to many "factories" or "machines" in Qeynos..</span></div><p>Message Edited by Dezertol on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:27 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dezertol wrote:<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana"><span></span>(Please take a satire for what it is, and think again about how "complex" is this system; mechanical work is left in real factories to machines....)</font><hr></blockquote>lol guess I struck a cord with that one for you to get that worked up about it....... and in case you didn't notice.. there are not to many "factories" or "machines" in Qeynos..</span></div><p>Message Edited by Dezertol on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sure there are, ever notice how few muchkins you see running around. Its becuase us kerrans have them all working in basements in Nettleville making small kerran dolls filled with catnip.</div>

[Ventisly]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>The fact is that, if the sample recipes we've seen are accurate, it will take no more raws to produce a final than it did before.  They're just all in one recipe instead of spread between WORTS and builds.<hr></blockquote><p>What you should be thinking about is the amount of XP you get per raw or the XP you get per minute.  With the current system you can take a 3 or 4 raws and get 8 or 9 combines out of them for a certain amount of XP.  If these new recipies only award the same amount of XP as current last final combine does then the amount of XP per raw will go dramatically down (no XP for the subs) and require you to go through a LOT more raws to level your crafter.  If the XP for the new recipies goes up to make up for using too many raws then you could be getting the same XP per raw as we currently do but then you will be levelling so insanely fast that it will take no time at all to reach lvl 70 (XP per minute will go dramatically up).  If SOE doesn't want crafters levelling that fast or using up raws too quickly then they will need to increase the time that it takes to do the new one-step final combine (thus reducing XP per minute).  If the new one-step final combine takes a similar amount of time as it currently takes for 7 or 8 subs plus one final, then that's gonna be one heck of a combine and I'd have to ask, why change the system at all.</p><p>To sum it up you have 3 possible effects from the no-sub crafting system:</p><ol><li>Crafters will use significantly more raws as they level.  This will drive up the price of raws making crafting too expensive for most people cause they won't be able to afford the price of raws (and the merchant won't pay them for the raws when they sell back their crafted goods).  Result: Harvesters get major rich and finding a harvest node will be next to impossible for all the harvesters.</li><li>Crafters will be getting significantly more XP per combine and levelling from 3 to 70 in one week or less.  Result: Might as well just remove the leveling part of crafting and give everyone a level 70 crafter.</li><li>Single-step combines take as long as it currently takes to do 7 subs and 1 final combine.  Result: Crafting becomes even more tedious since there's no variety and you can't break up the process into smaller steps.</li></ol><p>Now, chanches are it will be some combination of the above effects, raws are gonna be used at a faster pace by levelling crafters, crafters are gonna level faster and the final combine is gonna take longer since you are doing so much more.  None of those effects sound like a benefit to the crafting community.</p><p>Gaktar - Everfrost</p>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ZeyGnome wrote:<div>I am looking forward to this change. </div><div> </div><div>As a new player to EQ2, I find the whole crafting thing intriguing, but seriously daunting.  This is the first MMO where I gave up on my crafting.  I just couldn't stand the sheer timesink it was.</div><div> </div><div>Look at it this way, a less cumbersome system = more players.  More players=more subd for SOE.  More subs for SOE means more development.  Otherwise EQ2 could become AC2.</div><div> </div><div>I came from WoW this time.  This system as proposed is still way more immersive than theirs.  The whole Mille Bornes type Hazard/Safety part of crafting and choosing which is more important (Durability, Progress, Sucess) requires thought and quick reactions.</div><div> </div><div>Lots of people are looking at this game from WoW (the more mature players there who cannot stand the b-net mentality there), this would be a huge boon to EQ2.</div><div> </div><div>Testing the Adventure changes, I think it is going in the right direction.  This crafting change proposition also looks to be going in the right direction to appeal to a wider audience.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>GRATZZ SOE !</p><p>and i thought you couldn't take WoW's players.. Continue like this, make this game easier and easier, you may have 2 000 000 players ^^</p><p>I just want to remember what they did to OUR game for you :</p><p>-no more interdependance in craft</p><p>-gain xp faster</p><p>-move faster</p><p>-no more minimum lvl to go in some zones</p><p>-betrayal a any lvl (for the next LU)</p><p>-crafting is easier</p><p>...</p><p>I hope you will enjoy :smileywink:</p>

[ZeyGnome]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ZeyGnome wrote:<div>I am looking forward to this change. </div><div> </div><div>As a new player to EQ2, I find the whole crafting thing intriguing, but seriously daunting.  This is the first MMO where I gave up on my crafting.  I just couldn't stand the sheer timesink it was.</div><div> </div><div>Look at it this way, a less cumbersome system = more players.  More players=more subd for SOE.  More subs for SOE means more development.  Otherwise EQ2 could become AC2.</div><div> </div><div>I came from WoW this time.  This system as proposed is still way more immersive than theirs.  The whole Mille Bornes type Hazard/Safety part of crafting and choosing which is more important (Durability, Progress, Sucess) requires thought and quick reactions.</div><div> </div><div>Lots of people are looking at this game from WoW (the more mature players there who cannot stand the b-net mentality there), this would be a huge boon to EQ2.</div><div> </div><div>Testing the Adventure changes, I think it is going in the right direction.  This crafting change proposition also looks to be going in the right direction to appeal to a wider audience.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>GRATZZ SOE !</p><p>and i thought you couldn't take WoW's players.. Continue like this, make this game easier and easier, you may have 2 000 000 players ^^</p><p>I just want to remember what they did to OUR game for you :</p><p>-no more interdependance in craft</p><p>-gain xp faster</p><p>-move faster</p><p>-no more minimum lvl to go in some zones</p><p>-betrayal a any lvl (for the next LU)</p><p>-crafting is easier</p><p>...</p><p>I hope you will enjoy :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote><p>I can forgive your English, I can't forgive your attitude.  It is the same attitude that I left in WoW.</p><p>Don't make fun of the players of WoW who are coming here if you are no different than the ones they left there.</p><p>Bottom line is, this game needs a wider audience.  These changes will make the game more accessable to that wider audience.</p><p>Crafting will still be more itricate than other MMOs. </p><p>Oh, and it's not YOUR game, it's SOE's game.  They created it as a business, and they are changing it.  When all is said and done, you won't be out of a job or taking a loss of both money and prestige if the game fails.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[kenm]

<div></div><div>I doubt there's a single person who worked on the original project that's working on these stupid updates.  So no, they didn't create it. </div><div>And the game doesn't need a wider audience.  I love the attitude Sigil is putting into Vanguard.  They're making the game they think will be enjoyable and they're not going to change it for the whiners who want it easy.  Seems like the same idea that went into EQ2, but then the people running it decided to get money hungry and wanted to make it as bad at the horrible MMORPG known as WoW for a shot at money and decided to make everything easy.</div><div>Madden games suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and yet so many people buy those games year after year.  Would you honestly defend a company if they dumbed their game down and rehashed it year after year to compete with EA?</div><div> </div><div>The vast majority of people in the world are complete idiots, making a game for them just pisses the rest of the people off... yet the company gets rewarded for it. ;_;</div>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div>I doubt there's a single person who worked on the original project that's working on these stupid updates.  So no, they didn't create it. </div><div>And the game doesn't need a wider audience.  I love the attitude Sigil is putting into Vanguard.  They're making the game they think will be enjoyable and they're not going to change it for the whiners who want it easy.  Seems like the same idea that went into EQ2, but then the people running it decided to get money hungry and wanted to make it as bad at the horrible MMORPG known as WoW for a shot at money and decided to make everything easy.</div><div>Madden games suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and yet so many people buy those games year after year.  Would you honestly defend a company if they dumbed their game down and rehashed it year after year to compete with EA?</div><div> </div><div>The vast majority of people in the world are complete idiots, making a game for them just pisses the rest of the people off... yet the company gets rewarded for it. ;_;</div><p></p><hr><p>nothing to add, thanks</p></blockquote></div>

[Flor]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div>I doubt there's a single person who worked on the original project that's working on these stupid updates.  So no, they didn't create it. </div><div>And the game doesn't need a wider audience.  I love the attitude Sigil is putting into Vanguard.  They're making the game they think will be enjoyable and they're not going to change it for the whiners who want it easy.  Seems like the same idea that went into EQ2, but then the people running it decided to get money hungry and wanted to make it as bad at the horrible MMORPG known as WoW for a shot at money and decided to make everything easy.</div><div>Madden games suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and yet so many people buy those games year after year.  Would you honestly defend a company if they dumbed their game down and rehashed it year after year to compete with EA?</div><div> </div><div>The vast majority of people in the world are complete idiots, making a game for them just pisses the rest of the people off... yet the company gets rewarded for it. ;_;</div><hr></blockquote><p>Hope you are happy playing Vanguard my friend.  But remember, Sigil is into making money as well.  My gut feeling is that the game will evolve, just like EQ2 did, to appeal to a wider audience.</p><p>And secondly about your blanket statememt about the vast majority of people being idiots----I'm just shaking my head.  Nice attitude.</p><p>I just don't get it.  Tedium and time sinks in a game don't make you an intellectual giant.  Leveling up a character to "uberness" and investing countless hours in doing so just means that you have a lot of time on your hands. </p><p>Edit:  Oops, in responding to you I forgot to say something about the original post.  I agree with the OP totally.  I like the crafting system pretty much the way it is.  I would love the option to do some bulk combines but not a total revamp of the crafting system.  I like the complexity and knowing that not everyone is into crafting or has the patience.  The problem I found with WoW is when you make something so darned easy, everyone and their brother crafts.  It was just so darned easy that I wasn't challenged. One reason why I love EQ2 is the crafting systems and pretty much craft/adventure in equal amounts.   I think SOE could tweak portions of the system if they must but leave the rest of it alone.</p><p>Message Edited by Floria on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:28 AM</span></p>

[RoadkillUSA]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div>I doubt there's a single person who worked on the original project that's working on these stupid updates.  So no, they didn't create it. </div><div>And the game doesn't need a wider audience.  I love the attitude Sigil is putting into Vanguard.  <font color="#ffff00">They're making the game they think will be enjoyable and they're not going to change it for the whiners who want it easy.</font>  Seems like the same idea that went into EQ2, but then the people running it decided to get money hungry and wanted to make it as bad at the horrible MMORPG known as WoW for a shot at money and decided to make everything easy.</div><div>Madden games suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and yet so many people buy those games year after year.  Would you honestly defend a company if they dumbed their game down and rehashed it year after year to compete with EA?</div><div> </div><div>The vast majority of people in the world are complete idiots, making a game for them just pisses the rest of the people off... yet the company gets rewarded for it. ;_;</div><hr></blockquote>You actualy think that a company ,who is being backed by Micro$oft, is not going to cater to the player base that draws them the most money your in for a rude awakening. Micro$oft is into this for the money and they will make any changes to a game that they feel will accommodate the highest amount cash flow.

[kenm]

<div></div><div>The idiot player base is already secured by Blizzard, any good company can see there's not a way humanly possible to make a game worse than WoW but still be better than Big Rigs.  SOE on the other hand, doesn't realize this.  They will keep butchering their games to death for all eternity without realizing that there's no game on the market suited to the more "hardcore" players.  I have a feeling Sigil managed to get Microsoft to realize that if they secure that player base the money would be much more than a horribly failed game that starts good and ends up turning into crap.  (You know, one that has a higher population from the start and then decreases into practically nothing.)</div><div> </div><div>Either way, I think Microsoft has been doing enough to be called Microsoft instead of Micro$oft.  Sure they run an incredibly overpriced lobby server known as Xbox Live, but they're losing so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] money on each Xbox 360 they sell.  I'm not trying to defend the Xbox 360 as I despise consoles, but willingly losing so much money on each...</div><div>SOE on the other hand, thought it'd be a good idea to raise the subscription price on EQOA.  The game was already practically dead, and you RAISE THE PRICE?  YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO GET MORE CUSTOMERS!</div><div> </div><div>Microsoft > $OE, lolz.</div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>What I like is when a game is in Beta and all you see is praise to the developers and everybody is so nice and very little flames occur though they do occur and its all sunshine and rainbows.  Then the game comes out and after a month if not sooner is when people start [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and complaining about the direction or some decision or some bug.  Then the gap occurs of fanboi to whiner.  Every game has this happen so if you think Vanguard or any other game coming out is going to be different you are sure going to be suprised.  Oh and Microsoft is just as much in it for the money as sony is.  Again I will repeat what somebody else had mentioned.  Microsoft will do to vanguard what they feel will make them the most money.  The are not your parents and don't think about you when they make a decision.  When will people get it through their heads that the developers have their vision of what they want the game to be and that is the way it will go.</div>

[Mattsu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jasonqdavis wrote:<div>What I like is when a game is in Beta and all you see is praise to the developers and everybody is so nice and very little flames occur though they do occur and its all sunshine and rainbows.  Then the game comes out and after a month if not sooner is when people start [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and complaining about the direction or some decision or some bug.  Then the gap occurs of fanboi to whiner.  Every game has this happen so if you think Vanguard or any other game coming out is going to be different you are sure going to be suprised.  Oh and Microsoft is just as much in it for the money as sony is.  Again I will repeat what somebody else had mentioned.  Microsoft will do to vanguard what they feel will make them the most money.  The are not your parents and don't think about you when they make a decision.  When will people get it through their heads that the developers have their vision of what they want the game to be and that is the way it will go.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Maybe you're right, but i don't think so. just look around, it's sony's game that are in beta ( swg=NGE , Matrix= combat rewamp, EQ2=combat rewamp + casual direction..) . CoH, LII, WoW, GW have keep the same direction.</p><p>I'm just wondering how the most hated company in the mmorpg ($O£) can continue like that :smileysurprised:</p><p>Well, i hope you're wrong and that microsoft won't do that :smileywink:</p>

[kenm]

<div></div><blockquote><div><hr></div><div>jasonqdavis wrote:</div><div>What I like is when a game is in Beta and all you see is praise to the developers and everybody is so nice and very little flames occur though they do occur and its all sunshine and rainbows.  Then the game comes out and after a month if not sooner is when people start [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and complaining about the direction or some decision or some bug.  Then the gap occurs of fanboi to whiner.  Every game has this happen so if you think Vanguard or any other game coming out is going to be different you are sure going to be suprised.  Oh and Microsoft is just as much in it for the money as sony is.  Again I will repeat what somebody else had mentioned.  Microsoft will do to vanguard what they feel will make them the most money.  The are not your parents and don't think about you when they make a decision.  When will people get it through their heads that the developers have their vision of what they want the game to be and that is the way it will go.</div><hr></blockquote><p>There's a small difference here.  Microsoft actually knows how to make money, SOE fails horribly in that aspect.  They ruin anything they touch, want examples?</p><p>EQ, SWG, Infantry, EQ2.  I haven't personally experienced PlanetSide or TMO, but from what I can gather SOE managed to screw those up too.Hell, they even managed to screw up EQOA by going on a nerf-spree for a few months and then having ABSOLUTELY NO UPDATES for... a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] long time.It's like SOE thinks they're the best because of the games they run, but in all reality they aren't the ones that coded the masterpieces, they're just the ones that drove them into the ground.</p><p>And I can tell you one thing right now: the actual DEVELOPERS of the game, not the idiots running it now, surely didn't want this to happen to the game.  Why in the hell would you even code spirit shards if you expected them to get removed?  How about the run speed, they couldn't have expected that to get raised out of the blue after basing the entire scale of the game around it.  Or the entire tradeskill system, who in the hell would spend all that time making the recipes with subcombines if you had a vision of the system being incredibly stupid instead?</p><p>From Sigils giant FAQ and they way they actually talk with the community they've won my trust.  And hell, even if the game doesn't turn out a millionth as good as it sounds, it will still be a hell of a lot better than the other games on the market.</p>

[Flor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenman wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#ff3300">The idiot player base is already secured by Blizzard, any good company can see there's not a way humanly possible to make a game worse than WoW but still be better than Big Rigs</font>.  SOE on the other hand, doesn't realize this.  They will keep butchering their games to death for all eternity without realizing that there's no game on the market suited to the more "hardcore" players.  I have a feeling Sigil managed to get Microsoft to realize that if they secure that player base the money would be much more than a horribly failed game that starts good and ends up turning into crap.  (You know, one that has a higher population from the start and then decreases into practically nothing.)</div><div> </div><div>Either way, I think Microsoft has been doing enough to be called Microsoft instead of Micro$oft.  Sure they run an incredibly overpriced lobby server known as Xbox Live, but they're losing so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] money on each Xbox 360 they sell.  I'm not trying to defend the Xbox 360 as I despise consoles, but willingly losing so much money on each...</div><div>SOE on the other hand, thought it'd be a good idea to raise the subscription price on EQOA.  The game was already practically dead, and you RAISE THE PRICE?  YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO GET MORE CUSTOMERS!</div><div> </div><div>Microsoft > $OE, lolz.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Good God man, have you actually played WoW?  Lots of good people playing WoW (as well as the immature player base).  Flaming a game that you probably have never played makes you look a bit like what you are calling the rest of the world.  Lots of ex-WoW players on these boards so your comment is meant to inflame most likely.</p><p>Microsoft, as other players have stated, is there to make money.  Plain and simple.  I think the player base in these games tends to be more casual versus the hardcore anyway.  I think that you are setting yourself for disappointment down the road.  Too much bitterness towards a gaming company just ain't worth it, don't you think?   </p><p> </p>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>LOL, SOE will never have 2,000,000 players. That would require a LOT of change that simply isn't going to happen. It would require a change from the top down and with the way SOE itself does things. Won't happen. The only thing that will cause such a change would be the total failure of EQ2, etc. unfortunately. At the rate they are going though, may not be that long.</p><p>There are just as many immature people playing this game (percentage wise) than they are WoW or any other game.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>Well with WOW I think we have seen a shift in the market of who MMO's were made for.  On the most part before WOW most games were made for the Hardcore.  Those with the time on their hands to play hours on end to make progress.  After WOW a new market emerged and now all the rest of the games are playing catchup on trying to get this new market.  Vanguard is probably the only one who is still catering to the old school of players.  But I think depending on the numbers they recieve, after the first year, we shall see if they change their tune.  If they keep a large player base they probably will keep with the current plan they show in their FAQ.  But if they don't I think they will, just like everybody else, start to cater to the casual gamer.</div>

[Atrix Wolfe]

<div></div><div>I only have a couple problems with the changes. </div><div> </div><div>Why do all the recipes only use gems and completely ignore the precious metals  (I could use either to make spells before)?    And why the difference between numbers of fuel between teir one and teir two?  If it's five for teir one I expect to use five fuels for teir two as well.  The price of the fuel already goes up. </div><div> </div><div>Why even use five fuel at all?  Just make fuel 5 times as expensive and let us use one for normal spells and two for rare spells. </div><div> </div><div>Overall it's kinda neat, more like Earth and Beyond's style of crafting.  But if you're gonna go from raw materials into finished product let us break down finished product and get back the raw materials too.  There are tons of 'junk armor / weapon' items that have no other purpose than to be sold to the vendor.  Why don't we have the ability to take them to the forge and scrap them for components.  Or even the ability to take them apart find out how they're made and remake them even better. </div><div> </div><div>Previously I hated making inks like almost every alchemist, but this solution seems a bit under done.  Would be better to take less time making inks.  as in not 4 or 5 pristine combines, but one combine of any quality for every sub component.  The goal is I want to be able to whip these out fast and spend time working on final combines.  I don't want most of my time spent here.   </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[ZadooEQ]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>ZeyGnome wrote:<div></div><p>I can forgive your English, I can't forgive your attitude.  It is the same attitude that I left in WoW.</p><p>Don't make fun of the players of WoW who are coming here if you are no different than the ones they left there.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy: That was exactly my reaction when I read that post.As someone who played EQ live for years, but left EQ2 a few months after it went live primarily because of the hell that tradeskilling was, I'm glad to see the changes, particularly if they manage to make experience work without subcombines. I've paid my mindless clicking dues years ago in the old tradeskilling system of EQ Live and have the carpal tunnel syndrome to show for it. There is nothing wrong with having a life outside gaming or wanting gaming to be interesting. Pity it makes those of us who do "idiots". <span>:smileytongue:</span></span></span></div>

[Tau Nemes]

<hr size="2" width="100%">lol guess I struck a cord with that one for you to get that worked up about it....... and in case you didn't notice.. there are not to many "factories" or "machines" in Qeynos..<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana">Nope, we were making jokes the day before I saw your post.. imagining people who really thought that is some sort of accomplishment (for example, you seem to regard it as an intellectual accomplishment) to make things like wash, oil, resin etc.. over and over... and you really think seriously no one can grasp that... "complexity"?Don't make people laugh. Perhaps you like to work like an ant, and waste your time doing other crafts instead of yours (in my case, with my sage - I spend 99% of the time doing others crafts, wasting my time making quills, and a lot of other idiocies, and only 1% scribing, result? the other skills are maxed, but impossible to max scribing, I barely ever scribe as it is.We are supposed to work in the trade we selected, not in all other machines but barely ever see the one we wanted to work on.You ask for the machines in Qeynos... so if there aren't machines in Qeynos you are ok doing the work of machines? (So, akin to the real world, but worse, since there aren't machines to handle the menial tasks)Wasn't Norrath a magical world? (BTW crafting in EQ1, wasn't a tribute to masochism as it is here)I hope they change all the tiers fast. It is due from the beginning.</font><div></div>

[Vismo]

I find this thread very amusing since other than one mention of it when I first started out on the Isle, I had totally forgotten there even *was* crafting in this game. Having never gotten to a high level, I guess I never needed it or its products. It sounds way too involved and bound to be ignored by 95% of the players. Crafting in WoW is simple,  but almost everyone does it to some degree or another and it plays a vital role in the economy and even the unlocking of events (the current war effort in WoW). I imagine that's what SOE is shooting for here, because as it stands now, it sounds like something very esoteric and not really having any great use to the majority of players. And that's what all these changes are about, making things fun and usefull to players.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Atrix Wolfe wrote:<div></div><div>I only have a couple problems with the changes. </div><div> </div><div>Why do all the recipes only use gems and completely ignore the precious metals  (I could use either to make spells before)?    And why the difference between numbers of fuel between teir one and teir two?  If it's five for teir one I expect to use five fuels for teir two as well.  The price of the fuel already goes up. </div><div> </div><div>Why even use five fuel at all?  Just make fuel 5 times as expensive and let us use one for normal spells and two for rare spells. </div><div> </div><div>Overall it's kinda neat, more like Earth and Beyond's style of crafting.  But if you're gonna go from raw materials into finished product let us break down finished product and get back the raw materials too.  There are tons of 'junk armor / weapon' items that have no other purpose than to be sold to the vendor.  Why don't we have the ability to take them to the forge and scrap them for components.  Or even the ability to take them apart find out how they're made and remake them even better. </div><div> </div><div>Previously I hated making inks like almost every alchemist, but this solution seems a bit under done.  Would be better to take less time making inks.  as in not 4 or 5 pristine combines, but one combine of any quality for every sub component.  The goal is I want to be able to whip these out fast and spend time working on final combines.  I don't want most of my time spent here.   </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Should read the Dev info before you post, all the answers are there.</p><p>The 3 types of crafted spell will use 3 different kinds of raws (a new one is being added)/</p><p>You use 5 fuel because recipes always used lost of fuel, it was jsut part of the subcombines before.  All the new recipes take into account the number of raws and fuels used itn he old recipes.</p><p>You won't have to worry about whipping  out inks at all, is that fast enough?  :smileytongue:</p>

[Success]

<div></div>What I never understood was, how do you get ink from a gem? Is that like getting blood from a turnip, or gold from lead?

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>LOL</p><p>Actually if you read up on it, gems have been used to make paints for a while, since way before you bought paint in a tube, so why not ink?  I was just reading where Da Vinci, I think, supposedly used crushed rubies for his brilliant reds.</p><p>sorry, I'm a font of trivia.</p>

[KniteShayd]

<div></div><p>This post will be soooo far back i doubt anyone will read it.  also, i havent read the whole post so if i repeat sumn, 4giv me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think they are going in the right direction with these changes.  I for one, as a jeweler, hated to make 1000's of WORTs, then craft bars, cut gems, go through stages of inks, run around and back n forth from forge to jewelry table, the refine my gems n shape my bars, run to vendor for a buttload more regents.  then finally craft 1 single item.  to make a coupla rings = 1/2 hour+.  when game time to me is precious and adventuring is fun, crafting gets back burnered.  thats why my craft level is roughly half my adv lvl.</p><p>Now popping a buttload of raw material into a forge or table and out pops a pristine is a lil overboard, but then isn't redundant sub making and endless button mashing to hurry your progress a lil overboard too?  i mean come on. and then to have reactions that don't work?(push progress react, then progress goes down even though you are maxed at that craft skill)  especially when you get freak failures and no matter what you do your destined to not get that prisitine.( i don'tcare who you are, it HAS happened to you)  all them hours of grinding subs, for nothing.</p><p>I feel, that subs can be implemented for most parts of crafting. it's the inks that had the most complaint.  As a sage i wouldn't mind making quills if it was a one shot thing.  you don't need resin in real life to refine a peice of wood.  so 1 sandpaper 1 wood= 1 quill wood work.  same goes for paper, 1 root/wood 1 water 1 sandpaper = 4+ batch of paper.  then the ink, 1 rock/metal 1 oil 1 candle = a batch of inks and loams.  this, imo, would be easy yet still retain some work.</p><p>I do see some balance with the new system though as you will still havta work to get your pristine.  I doubt this transition will be smooth, but i am always optimistic.</p>

[KniteShayd]

<div></div>Not only were stones and metals used for inks, but for dyes and pigmenting things as well.  in ancient egypt, they used lapis for blue eyeshadow and even alot of make up now uses glass and Micah, a common mineral. thats why some make up shimmers.

[masterwho]

<div></div>I think it is very funny... I mean, they(SOE) wanted to get rid of the idea that you are not gonna learn about your final class cux of a few spells that don't really fit in with your class, but they wanna also throw in a few recipies that don't really fit on being a <insert tradeskill class>! I mean, instead of learning to make ink and paper(and quills) for the rest of your life as a scribe, ya just play with some roots, maybe some stones or loam(LOAM?) and wood.... until ya ding t3, which means ya have to start learning your new class... uh... just like we used to do as adventurers..... anyone else noticed this??

[Sritt]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Master_Who wrote:<div></div>I think it is very funny... I mean, they(SOE) wanted to get rid of the idea that you are not gonna learn about your final class cux of a few spells that don't really fit in with your class, but they wanna also throw in a few recipies that don't really fit on being a ! I mean, instead of learning to make ink and paper(and quills) for the rest of your life as a scribe, ya just play with some roots, maybe some stones or loam(LOAM?) and wood.... until ya ding t3, which means ya have to start learning your new class... uh... just like we used to do as adventurers..... anyone else noticed this??<hr></blockquote>That's because up to this point on test only the new recipes (t1 and t2 spells/combat arts and t7 stuff for KoS) have been put in the new format. The existing recipes are going to be converted over in batches and tested before going live. It takes time. Also why hold up putting out hte new t1-t2 recipes until they're all done, especially as those recipes are needed to make app3-4 and adept3 abilities for characters. We may see more converted before 19 goes live or we may have to wait for KoS for more. The existing recipes will change though, it just takes time to convert things over.

[masterwho]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>That's because up to this point on test only the new recipes (t1 and t2 spells/combat arts and t7 stuff for KoS) have been put in the new format. The existing recipes are going to be converted over in batches and tested before going live. It takes time. Also why hold up putting out hte new t1-t2 recipes until they're all done, especially as those recipes are needed to make app3-4 and adept3 abilities for characters. We may see more converted before 19 goes live or we may have to wait for KoS for more. The existing recipes will change though, it just takes time to convert things over.</p><hr><p> </p><p>I have not tested the T7 stuff (don't think I will, wanna be 'surprised' for that on my play account) but if they plan on doing this for T1-T7 then I am ok with that, as I do like some of the newer(sp?) recipies and such =)</p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Success]

<div></div>Well, we are not cavemen in this game and those gnomes have tinkered better things than using rocks to write on walls with so I think we can do without using rocks to make inks and stuff.

[Descolin]

While I really haven't enjoyed the monotony of crafting, I do agree with the original poster, this is make crafting overly simple and taking away much of its depth. The main problem I have with the current system, other than the monotony which really can't be remedied (EQ2 has less monotonous crafting than any other game, in my opinion, so I guess I should not complain), is that it is somewhat confusing; what components you need for each item to finally make a final product and all, if you are making something you often end up having to remember several different recipes and things you need. Confusing at times. Create a flow chart system or something that will allow you to easily see what is needed to make something and what components you need to complete the entire thing from scratch. Much better, in my opinion.<div></div>

[Malaka]

Im am starting to get to a level of frustration with this game that will have me quit as soon as somthing else comes along.  I cannot understand why you would change one of the fundamental ideas of crafting this late in the game....I have spent the last 4 weeks building up sotck piles of sub combines so that I can level up quickly after the expansion comes out are you now telling me that I ahve wasted my time... where is my compensation... when is my profit.. .where is the advantage that I have been working on having over other crafters..DONT change the game preciples this late in the process.If you are NOW deciding that the whole sub combine idea was not good the you are basically saying that your original game design team sux.<div></div>

[Rattfa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Malakath wrote:Im am starting to get to a level of frustration with this game that will have me quit as soon as somthing else comes along.  I cannot understand why you would change one of the fundamental ideas of crafting this late in the game....I have spent the last 4 weeks building up sotck piles of sub combines so that I can level up quickly after the expansion comes out are you now telling me that I ahve wasted my time... where is my compensation... when is my profit.. .where is the advantage that I have been working on having over other crafters..DONT change the game preciples this late in the process.If you are NOW deciding that the whole sub combine idea was not good the you are basically saying that your original game design team sux.<div></div><hr></blockquote>sucks to be you!! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[Astery]

i like the way crafting is today, i dont see much point in simplifying it.as an idea, it would be much better to remove the "trivial" receipt's secondary comp needs. that i would easier accept...balancing usually means change something that the mass complains about, and many times theoriginal concept/idea (why it was put there) is overlooked, forgotten.to me it seems balancing degrades to simplification, in that sense, you should leave only the bosses in dungeons,its too boring to kill all pointless mobs for that little xp and loot. same as crafter world... its not fair.*** why fix the not broken things? ***instead focus on removing botters, fixing collision problems in dungeons, add more variety to items.also would be nice to see more options on the character development. imbue is nice, but why only ability imbue?why cant other imbue types be done? like boost on poison resistance, add more HP... etcat tier6 things even got more simplier. vanadium stuff goes for tanks, pearl for the others...the only reason i acceted so far the slow zoning, simplified character development, weak assistance on stopping botters, is crafting.crafting is the best among all the other MMOG out there, and you are about to simplify it...i need to change my playstyle AGAIN, so i need to gather more? those places are already full of ppl, i just hate gathering sometimes.also make gathering nodes locakable, and let us gather 4-6 pieces/node.send location information to client as binary picture image, so they cant read them from logfile to sync their bot so easily.also put a limiter on /loc command so it updates once per minute, or after zoning.

[Success]

<div></div><p>Yep, some of you definately love S&M, torture and playing the game to be a 2nd job. It makes no sense to have someone spend hours to make 1 item. The original idea with subcombines did suck. Just WAY too many steps in making something and then each step take such a long time. The crafting system is the worst in any game around. It's time it was changed. They are trying to get rid of the tedious, boring, 2nd job feeling. It made the crafting system unique alright but, not in a good way.</p><p> </p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><p>Yep, some of you definately love S&M, torture and playing the game to be a 2nd job. It makes no sense to have someone spend hours to make 1 item. The original idea with subcombines did suck. Just WAY too many steps in making something and then each step take such a long time. The crafting system is the worst in any game around. It's time it was changed. They are trying to get rid of the tedious, boring, 2nd job feeling. It made the crafting system unique alright but, not in a good way.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Yep, some of you definately love S&M, torture and playing the game to be a 2nd job. It makes no sense to have someone spend hours to make 1 level. The origional idea with killing many mobs per level did suck. Just WAY too many mobs to have to kill to get a level and then each mob take such a long time to kill. The leveling system is the worst in any game around. It's time it was changed. They are trying to get rid of the tedious, boring 2nd job feeling. It made the leveling system unique alright but, not in a good way.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">As you can see from my re-writing your post with small alterations, it is much more obvious how quite a few people feel about adventure leveling by being forced to grind a lot of mobs and do quests that give about as much exp as a discovery gives in crafting. The point that it seems most "adventurers" that hate crafting seem to miss, is that it takes JUST as long grinding/questing to get an adventure level as it does to grind/quest out a crafting level. You just happen to enjoy the adventuring and not the crafting. Its my opinion, that if they are going to dumb down the game, they might as well dumb down all of it, so that those crafters that hated adventuring, and will now end up hating crafting after the changes, might now enjoy adventuring since it will be less "tedious".</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">*edited for spelling/grammar errors*</font></p><p>Message Edited by Cynto on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:24 PM</span></p>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Leveling is part of the game though, crafting is just something they add in to kill more time with. Leveling and killing mobs and all is what the game is about. Crafting is just an extra they added to please those people that like crafting. It's an extra thrown in for the heck of it. Preferably, I would rather they just take crafting out all together.<p>This is Everquest, as in adventuring, etc., not Evercraft, which is what it turned into with their crappy system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><div></div><p>Actually Successor, although it didn't make it into the "real" game. Crafting was supposed to be an entire OTHER leveling system. As in, you could be a crafter, OR an adventurer, not both. They decided to LET us be able to have 2 classes essentially, when we origionally weren't supposed to be able to. As for your "leveling is part of the game" comment, yes, it is. And it SHOULD apply to a degree to crafting. Crafting did NOT take any longer to level up than adventuring did, if you knew how to maximize your exp gains. Just because YOU thought it was tedious and annoying and only put in to "kill time" does NOT mean that EVERYONE felt that way, or that we all like torture. Did I LOVE crafting to 60? No, but I also don't think that it should be just given to people any more than adventure levels are. (I am both a 60 Berserker and a 60 armorer). I mean hell, if crafting is "just to kill time" then why not just make everyone able to just pick a craft and put em at max level? Because thats flawed logic.</p><p>This is not to say that I don't think that the crafting system needed a change, it did. However, using a sledge hammer to kill an annoying fly is a bit overkill, don't you think? My annoyance is that SoE seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, instead of maybe tuning it a bit, and tuning it a bit more till they get it right. They ALWAYS seem to take wild swings one way or another when people don't like something, and that is the fastest way to kill off a loyal community, because they no longer have ANY form of stability. I've always loved EverQuest, played EQ1 pretty much all the way to getting this game, but it is rapidly becoming appearant that I may need to find a game with a slightly more stable foundation.</p><p>It is one thing to make the statement that "MMOs are an every changing environment, nothing stays the same and frequently they get easier as time goes on" and its an entirely different thing to take something that took me as long to level up as my adventure level, and then suddenly say "Whelp, we know you put all this work into it, but F U, some other people over here don't like it, and didn't want to put in the effort to do it, so we're going to change it so drasticly that it dosn't hardly resemble the same system. Oh yeah, and those 80+ hours you spent leveling up your crafter? F ya! Too bad noob! You should have waited to craft!" And honestly thats kind of how I feel i'm being treated, simply because i'm a "minority".</p><p> </p><p>*edit*</p><p>Also, I gotta say, that if "Crafting is just an extra they added to please those people that like crafting. It's an extra thrown in for the heck of it. Preferably, I would rather they just take crafting out all together." Then [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] do you care about it? Just don't craft! Buy stuff from crafters and pretend it was looted from a super epic mob. Just because you think the crafting system was stupid dosn't mean they should change it, ESPECIALLY if you were never going to use it even in its changed condition. How does your opinion matter if you're not going to craft and could live without it exactly?</p><p>Message Edited by Cynto on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:39 PM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Leveling is part of the game though, crafting is just something they add in to kill more time with. Leveling and killing mobs and all is what the game is about. Crafting is just an extra they added to please those people that like crafting. It's an extra thrown in for the heck of it. Preferably, I would rather they just take crafting out all together.<p>This is Everquest, as in adventuring, etc., not Evercraft, which is what it turned into with their crappy system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'd ask you to speak for yourself.  Lots of us came to EQ2 bacuse Crafting was plugged as a viable form of game play, and for us killing mobs is *not* what it is all about.  Meanwhile, remind me not to sell you anything crafted, since you dno't need it.

[selch]

<div></div><p>Okay, take all your subcomponetns and inks back...</p><p>I'm sure you won't be happy if you can have ability to do same thing with subcomponents and other people can do without subcomponents as they wish and as an option. I'll be happy to craft 8 times faster than you and same quality. You don't like the idea? </p><p>Being able to have nerves for tedious things or seeing same 4 green blue bar 10 times does not make you good crafter.</p>

[Cynto]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div></div><p>Okay, take all your subcomponetns and inks back...</p><p>I'm sure you won't be happy if you can have ability to do same thing with subcomponents and other people can do without subcomponents as they wish and as an option. I'll be happy to craft 8 times faster than you and same quality. You don't like the idea? </p><p>Being able to have nerves for tedious things or seeing same 4 green blue bar 10 times does not make you good crafter.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Never have I said that I wanted to keep all the subs etc, so I don't know where you're getting that. I'm just upset that they are smashing the system beyond all recognition instead of adding in batch combines or getting rid of SOME of the subs like WORTs etc. And ya know what? Sure, if they wanted to add in a system that used both I would GLADLY accept it. Ya know why? Because I would grind up to top leveling doing subcombines and finals, and then once i wasn't leveling on the items anymore, or they had turned grey I would start using the insta craft system. So basicly, yeah, if you want to throw both systems in game I will happily make use of BOTH. I'm just [Removed for Content] off that i'm being treated kind of like an unwanted stepchild simply because I worked my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off on a system that is getting COMLPETELY changed, not just adjusted.</p><p>Oh, and if you think taking yourself and a group of 24 friends and throwing yourself at a mob takes "Skill" you might be surprised. I can sit there as a tank and spam taunt and attacks to hold aggro, or be a healer and just click every heal as they pop up while doing a raid mob. Its not really all that much more challenging, save for maybe the fact that some mobs wipe aggro occasionally during a fight, but once you learn the timing on it, it rapidly becomes spam taunt, have everyone turn off attack every minute, and have the healers spam heal the MT, SOOOO HARD! But hey, if you really want to think its that much harder than crafting, be my guest.</p>

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Leveling is part of the game though, crafting is just something they add in to kill more time with. Leveling and killing mobs and all is what the game is about. Crafting is just an extra they added to please those people that like crafting. It's an extra thrown in for the heck of it. Preferably, I would rather they just take crafting out all together.<p>This is Everquest, as in adventuring, etc., not Evercraft, which is what it turned into with their crappy system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'd ask you to speak for yourself.  Lots of us came to EQ2 bacuse Crafting was plugged as a viable form of game play, and for us killing mobs is *not* what it is all about.  Meanwhile, remind me not to sell you anything crafted, since you dno't need it.<hr></blockquote><p>I'd ask you to point out to me where I claimed to speak for anyone other than myself. Since you can't, I'd ask you not to assume anything and make post based on fact. Meanwhile, remind me to never buy anything from you or recommend you to anyone. Lots of us came to EQ to adventure because that was plugged as a viable form of play and for us to give our hard earned cash to crafters is not what it's about.</p><p><span class="time_text">Like i said, this is not Evercraft, which is what they made it into because you spend hours making just one item due to all the [Removed for Content] subcombines. You will STILL have your crafting. They aren't taking crafting away. They are just making it so that it isn't a 2nd job and takes all your gameplay to create a few items.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p>

[StrollingWolf]

<div></div>Please keep this thread civil. Thank you.

[Cynto]

<div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Leveling is part of the game though, crafting is just something they add in to kill more time with. Leveling and killing mobs and all is what the game is about. Crafting is just an extra they added to please those people that like crafting. It's an extra thrown in for the heck of it. Preferably, I would rather they just take crafting out all together.<p>This is Everquest, as in adventuring, etc., not Evercraft, which is what it turned into with their crappy system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:26 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'd ask you to speak for yourself.  Lots of us came to EQ2 bacuse Crafting was plugged as a viable form of game play, and for us killing mobs is *not* what it is all about.  Meanwhile, remind me not to sell you anything crafted, since you dno't need it.<hr></blockquote><p>I'd ask you to point out to me where I claimed to speak for anyone other than myself. Since you can't, I'd ask you not to assume anything and make post based on fact. Meanwhile, remind me to never buy anything from you or recommend you to anyone. <font color="#33cc00">Lots of us came to EQ to adventure because that was plugged as a viable form of play and for us to give our hard earned cash to crafters is not what it's about.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Lets look at the highlighted text here. You make it sound as if we crafters are out to price gouge you and cheat you out of your "hard earned cash". Let me ask you, do you REALLY think that if there was no crafted armor/weapons that you would be getting a better deal? I'll admit that some crafters on certain servers seem to have a strangle hold on the market, but on the server I play on, that is not the case, at least for armorers. Just take a look at the rare harvest prices, do you think thats a crafter pricing that Vanadium/Pearl/Cobalt/Ironwood/etc at 4pp just for the rare harvest? Likely its not, because they would have turned it into a piece of armor and sold it for less. (Admittedly this isn't always the case, but crafters on average tend to be more generous than adventurers, at least from what i've seen). If this game consisted totally of monster dropped items you wouldn't be able to take a rare harvest and give it with an imbuing item to a crafter and get a T6 BP or Leggings for only 8g. (Thats about what most armorers charge on top of crafting cost on my server.) Likely you would be paying 4pp+ for that uber BP since I garontee you that the dropped BP would be far more rare than any rare harvest is.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Also, I would like to add that Adventuring IS a viable form of play, frequently much more so than crafting is, and you don't even have to rely on crafters anyway as you can find Fabled stuff that is better without too much trouble. So lets not make a statement that makes it sound like you're totally reliant on crafters for everything, because that is FAR from the case my friend.</font></p><p><span class="time_text">Like i said, this is not Evercraft, which is what they made it into because you spend hours making just one item due to all the [Removed for Content] subcombines. You will STILL have your crafting. They aren't taking crafting away. They are just making it so that it isn't a 2nd job and takes all your gameplay to create a few items.</span></p><p><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff0000">Again, just because you don't like to craft dosn't mean others don't. And, as you have been thus far, you're assuming that everyone hates crafting like you do, which is not the case. Yes, we're a minority, yes a lot of us wanted SOME of the components taken away, but a lot of us actually liked the system pretty much the way it was. Sure it was annoying to have to spend so much time making components to make armor, but this new system does not take away tedium by any means, save if you're already at level cap. In that case, you're right, it will be easier. I just think it could have been done a different, more intelegent way. Clicking create with very little thought and just spamming buttons to make a piece of armor is NOT more fun than trying to figure out what items to create for that BP or Spaulders to be made, it just shortens the time span in making it.</font></span></p><p><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff0000">Also, I would just like to add, that SOME of us LIKE to craft and did not view it as horriffic, just annoying. They could have very easily removed a few of the subs or added in batch crafting like the community asked, both of those solutions would have fixed the problem nicely without breaking the system in they way this change has the possiblity to.</font></span></p><p><span class="time_text"><font color="#ff0000">Oh, and lastly, if you REALLY think this will cut down on costs of items, I think you're in for a surprise. Sure, prices might drop for a bit if a lot of people get up to cap, but that will change rapidly as new crafters stop putting things up for sale or as older crafters get forced out, and the prices will rise again. That is just the nature of supply and demand.</font></span></p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Cynto]

<div></div>Just wanted to add that, as a crafter all armoring has ever done for me is act like a massive black hole for my money. I've made far more money adventuring than I ever have crafting. Heck, at one point I used to make 1pp a day just doing repeatable quests and farming certian areas for vendor drops. I don't think i've ever made an entire plat in a day of crafting, and i'm a lvl 60 Armorer. Most of my guildies do high level instance runs in DoF and make well over that in one night of play, just thought I would point that out to ya.

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><p>The gripe here by crafters is really just them being [Removed for Content] because they spent 100s of hours getting their crafting up and now there will be a LOT more competition since it won't take near as long to crafting levels up. So yea, it's greed because they don't want other people getting into crafting now since it will now become a MUCH better system that is in line with other games.</p><p>It's no different than when we had to spend 100s of hours in leveling when the game first came out, as compared to now, where new players spend half the time getting the same levels.</p><p>Things change, they learn from mistakes (sometimes),  deal with it. The original crafting system was a mistake.</p><p>Please don't assume anything. You have no clue whatsoever as to what I like or don't like. You have no clue at all if I like crafting or not. I have no idea where you pulled that out of (well, maybe i do). For your information, I DO like crafting. I craft in just about every game, except this one because I thought it was stupid. I just didn't like this crafting SYSTEM. Now that they are fixing it to be a better system, I may just try it now. Yep, more competition for you crafters, which is the REAL problem you have with the new system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:27 PM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The gripe here by crafters is really just them being [Removed for Content] because they spent 100s of hours getting their crafting up and now there will be a LOT more competition since it won't take near as long to crafting levels up. So yea, it's greed because they don't want other people getting into crafting now since it will now become a MUCH better system that is in line with other games.</p><p><snip></p><p>Please don't assume anything. You have no clue whatsoever as to what I like or don't like.</p><hr></blockquote>Back at atcha <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  please don't assume that all crafters are [Removed for Content] and are worried about competition.  Lots aren't.

[Sritt]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The gripe here by crafters is really just them being [Removed for Content] because they spent 100s of hours getting their crafting up and now there will be a LOT more competition since it won't take near as long to crafting levels up. So yea, it's greed because they don't want other people getting into crafting now since it will now become a MUCH better system that is in line with other games.</p><p></p><p>Please don't assume anything. You have no clue whatsoever as to what I like or don't like.</p><hr></blockquote>Back at atcha <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  please don't assume that all crafters are [Removed for Content] and are worried about competition.  Lots aren't.<hr></blockquote>True, but you're one of the few crafters I've seen posting who has been reasonable and not resorted to whining, flaming, stereotyping, and attacking non-crafters and reluctant crafters. Its sometimes hard to remember that not all crafters are greedy, price gouging, elitist, trolls when there's so many threads and posts that make those of us who like the changes to various degrees (and don't craft currently because of the existing sytem) feel like we're under attack and apparently stupid. I say to various degrees because if they do resort to just raws for all recipes than I think it is going a bit too far, but I'm all for removing the bulk of the useless, cross skill combines that don't add realism. As pointed out most armorers don't mix their own chemicals, most scribes don't make their own quills, inks, and paper. WHile its realistic to have those things makable/made, its not realistic to make a crafter cross-specialize and make things not in their field of sepcialty just because those things are used in their craft. A tank doesn't wiggle his fingers to cast spells, they don't pray to the gods for healing favors, they don't go itno stealth to sneak up on an enemy, not unless they BUY something to mimic those abilities that are the forte of a different adventuring class. Why should crafters have to learn how to be an alchemist if they're a carpenter?</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><div>Its sometimes hard to remember that not all crafters are greedy, price gouging, elitist, trolls when there's so many threads and posts that make those of us who like the changes to various degrees (and don't craft currently because of the existing sytem) feel like we're under attack and apparently stupid.<hr></div></blockquote><p>Well, that's true.  But remember that forum junkies are barely a representative sample of EQ2 players. </p><p>I'm pleased to see that over in the TS forums the threads involving these changes actually have a lot of 'well, I dunno, but I'll wait and see' responses rather than the kinda freaking out speculation that we see a lot.  I'll continue to maintain that the post LU 13 XP changes were not the death of crafting as was predicted my many, and this change won't be either.  I'm sure the Producers batted around many ideas before they decided on this seemingly radical change, and I will remain optimistic that it's going to make room for cool stuff in the future.</p><p>BTW, thanks for the compliment <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Success]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div><blockquote><div></div><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The gripe here by crafters is really just them being [Removed for Content] because they spent 100s of hours getting their crafting up and now there will be a LOT more competition since it won't take near as long to crafting levels up. So yea, it's greed because they don't want other people getting into crafting now since it will now become a MUCH better system that is in line with other games.</p><p></p><p>Please don't assume anything. You have no clue whatsoever as to what I like or don't like.</p><hr></blockquote>Back at atcha <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  please don't assume that all crafters are [Removed for Content] and are worried about competition.  Lots aren't.<hr></blockquote></div></blockquote><p>I never once said all crafters.</p>

[Kasar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Razal wrote:<div>This will hurt alchemists who specalized in making poisons.  The loams, especially the rare ones, will be harder to come by.  What will happen to the stacks of loam that have been saved up from inking rare inks?  Will these now be useful to make the adept3 fighter adepts getting effectively say 2 ad 3 abilities (fighter -- loam post patch/ mage -- the ink pre patch) from one pearl (for example??).</div><hr></blockquote>This is already taken care of, no more legendary poisons.  That's a whole different thread, but definitely changes things for alchys.</span><div></div>

[Kasar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Successer wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The gripe here by crafters is really just them being [Removed for Content] because they spent 100s of hours getting their crafting up and now there will be a LOT more competition since it won't take near as long to crafting levels up. So yea, it's greed because they don't want other people getting into crafting now since it will now become a MUCH better system that is in line with other games.</p><p>Yep, more competition for you crafters, which is the REAL problem you have with the new system.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Being in line with WoW, or even EQ1 isn't a real accomplishment.  I'm not sure it'll make levelling any faster really, I like the batch idea better for that.  For most tiers, I just did chems and subcombines for 3 or 4 levels, then actually made things for the rest of the tier.  Now those early levels will mean a lot more production and the recipe books will have to be revamped to give actual products earlier.Competition's not a problem either, I don't stock my vault from crafting.  I've never refused an order either, regardless of the price.My biggest problem lately's just been finding other crafters that're willing to craft.  Under this system, I won't need anyone else, I do have 14 toons.</span><div></div>

[Kasar]

<div></div>This seems so un-SOE, taking away an enormous time-sink.  Next thing you know, HQ mobs will be up more often or even be triggered, then EverCamp will cease to be.<p>Message Edited by Kasar on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:44 AM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kasar wrote:<span>This is already taken care of, no more legendary poisons.  That's a whole different thread, but definitely changes things for alchys.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Your data is almost 2 weeks out of date, and quite incorrect.  Please read the Dev posts before posting.  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496" target="_blank"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-24-06 9:50 AM]</font></a><img src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif" border="0" alt="">

[Success]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kasar wrote:<div></div>This seems so un-SOE, taking away an enormous time-sink.  Next thing you know, HQ mobs will be up more often or even be triggered, then EverCamp will cease to be.<p>Message Edited by Kasar on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>That's the way it should be. Time sinks suck and just shows a company lacks what it takes to come up with good ideas so, they just use time sinks. There are better and more interesting ways to do things than waste someone's game time.</p><p>There are a LOT more games out there than just WoW and EQ1.</p><p>Message Edited by Successer on <span class="date_text">01-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:14 PM</span></p>

[Mathe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div><div>As pointed out most armorers don't mix their own chemicals, most scribes don't make their own quills, inks, and paper. WHile its realistic to have those things makable/made, its not realistic to make a crafter cross-specialize and make things not in their field of sepcialty just because those things are used in their craft.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Actually if you want to be "realistic." Tailors don't need chemicals to make clothing. Dyes need to be made, but for that level of technology, dies are very simple to make, so a tailor would save money by making their own. Armorers don't use chemicals either, if you have the metal smelted (which most Blacksmiths are able to do for themselves) it is a matter of shaping it. A quill can be made by picking up a feather and making a small cut. Inks of this period are also very simple to make. Tanners usually make their own chemicals.</p><p>In fact, for this level of technology, the prevailing trend of crafters was to make everything they needed for their craft for themselves because it is cheaper and easier then haggling for products.</p>

[Sritt]

<div></div>OKay well then they should change the quill recipe. There's no feather used in them on live. Instead you have to work down wood, mix in oils (all the WORTs are chemicals, just made from natural ingredients rather than all synthetic), and essentialy make a pencil with a single use. At least you can buy raws, after all even today most don't harvest their own raws other than the holistic medicine people who grow their own gardens (and they usually have always done that for anything they needed that could be tended, much easier than roaming the wilds hoping to find what they need). My point is that the current system isn't 'realistic' any more than the new system is, both have elements of realism and elements of game play and balance. Also people's perceptions of what a crafter's 'real' job is varies between people. We're also dealing with a fantasy world where every adventurer has the potential to be a powerful mage, a noble crusader, a wicked knight, and at the same time be an expert chef, master carpenter, or spell-creating scribe. I mean if you roleplay (which is the valid use for wanting realism) how likely is your high powered sword-swining barbarian beserker likely to know 15-20 languages, mix chemicals using alchemy, and write out mystical scrolls that increase the knowledge of mages. If they really wanted realism the tradeskill classes would be restricted to certain adventurer classes and races and we'd not get to learn a ton of extra languages, especially with an intelligence score of 10 (which my monk at 57 isn't much above that since int does nothing for him).

[jasonqdavis]

I would also like to add to this that if SOE wanted the tradeskill profession to be something in of itself then there would have been another class you could have picked at the beginning that would have been your tradeskill.  So you would have had at character creation all the different character classes and then they would have had all the tradeskill classes and you would pick that.  So instead of being a wizard alchemist you would have been just an alchemist.  And yes they did say they wanted to make it so you can just be a tradeskill person but again if they really really ment that then they would have made it so you could have picked a tradeskill class instead of an adventuring class.<blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>OKay well then they should change the quill recipe. There's no feather used in them on live. Instead you have to work down wood, mix in oils (all the WORTs are chemicals, just made from natural ingredients rather than all synthetic), and essentialy make a pencil with a single use. At least you can buy raws, after all even today most don't harvest their own raws other than the holistic medicine people who grow their own gardens (and they usually have always done that for anything they needed that could be tended, much easier than roaming the wilds hoping to find what they need). My point is that the current system isn't 'realistic' any more than the new system is, both have elements of realism and elements of game play and balance. Also people's perceptions of what a crafter's 'real' job is varies between people. We're also dealing with a fantasy world where every adventurer has the potential to be a powerful mage, a noble crusader, a wicked knight, and at the same time be an expert chef, master carpenter, or spell-creating scribe. I mean if you roleplay (which is the valid use for wanting realism) how likely is your high powered sword-swining barbarian beserker likely to know 15-20 languages, mix chemicals using alchemy, and write out mystical scrolls that increase the knowledge of mages. If they really wanted realism the tradeskill classes would be restricted to certain adventurer classes and races and we'd not get to learn a ton of extra languages, especially with an intelligence score of 10 (which my monk at 57 isn't much above that since int does nothing for him).<hr></blockquote>

[Galn]

<div></div><div><p>I actually agree that something has to be done with crafting to make it less tedious, but what SOE is doing will have many side effects if it goes into effect. </p><p>1- Right now you do a combine that uses up a root and a metal plus one npc bought item, 30 seconds later you repeat that process to make component 2, etc etc until you have enough components for one item, then you make said item by addsin an npc bought fuel. Thi means you just spent 5 minutes making this simple item and using (just picked a number for sake of arguement here) 8 raw resources. Now with the new system you place your 8 raws in a pot, add npc purchased fuel, 30 seconds later you have an item. The difference here is it now will take you 1/10th the time to use up the 8 raws, so in an hour you'll go through 960 raw resources and in the current system you'll go through 96 raws. This menas you'll have to make more trips out to harvest that multitude of resources you'll need to spend your hour crafting, and the stockpiles of raws will be depleted very fast.</p><p>2- Now that each crafter is going though 10 times as many raws, lets also note that there will probably be a huge influx of new crafters since suddenly anyone can do it.... so I"ll pick a nice generous number and figure the number of crafters only doubles on a server (probably going to be more than that becuase I'll actually be leveling 10 myself instead of the 2 I currently have if I can find the raws). Ok, back to the equation... now that we have twice as many crafters grinding levels using many times more raws as they used to by the sheer speed they can use them up, the node for harvesting are going to start being camped. Plus who wants to spend 10g for a tuber strand..</p><p>Another side effect, those who have stockpiles of raws will be able to level very fast, and those having to fight the campers will be stuck holding the bag so to speak.</p><p>There has to be a way to make it less tedious, more fun, but still can be challenging to those of us who know how to play well.</p><p><heading to test to see how fast I can level in the new system></p></div><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:25 AM</span></p>

[Lizardking1989]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this.  I left WOW to come to EQ2 cause it seemed like a great game and wanted more of a challenge.  I really love the crafting system the way it is.  Sure it could use some improvement but to totally dumb it down is a slap in the face to crafters.If I wanted to spend all my time farming for materials and have a 1 step crafting system I would just play wow.  Crafting is not for everyone and is an artform.  The crafting system in live now is just fine....SOE IF IT ANIT BROKE DON"T FIX IT.  I don't know what is is with SOE that they have to tinker and mess up stuff in their games that the majority of their subscribers like.  Please don't mess this game up like you did with Galaxies and leave the crafting alone.<div></div>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<div></div>So what you are saying is you love the tedious pointless button pushing for hours on end. I see. Can't say my carpal tunnel will be upset to have less combines to make one food (60 Provis). I had to quit TSing, just couldn't do it, timewise and it causes me a lot of pain. I have slowly started making a few things for guildies now, I am all for a simpler system. I'm curious how this will affect XP per recipe. Also what is going to happen to my pre combs I have sitting around before the update? Can I use them???? Will they become final products the end??? What about refined tea leaves & coffee, etc?

[Mattsu]

<div></div><div>@Lizard :<blockquote><hr></blockquote><blockquote><p><em>Yes, and it's integral to the game. Many players have wanted to craft exclusively, yet still interact with the world, and we believe we have developed a system that meets that goal.</em></p><p><em>Crafting will be a lot more involved, interactive, and exciting than traditional MMOG harvesting work. We feel strongly that crafting should be a lot more than click-click-click, or setting a harvesting device to extract materials while you go off to actually do something fun. It should involve skills and decisions on the part of the player that ultimately affect the final result achived.</em></p><hr><p>V:SoH FAQ :smileywink:</p></blockquote></div>

[Success]

<div></div><p>A slap in the face of crafters? ROFLMAO</p><p>Crafters have absolutely no reason to whine about this change.</p><p>There is challenge and then there is EQ2 crafting system which is the most boring, tediuos, stupid crafting system ever designed. I think people need to learn the definition of challenging.</p><p>I think they need to take it even further. Buy the feathers from merchants, the wood for shafts and the metal for arrow heads from the broker (or harvest) and place the 3 items in and hit combine, like they did in EQ1. Player made arrows are WAY too expensive.</p>

[selch]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Mattsupp wrote:<div></div><div>@Lizard :<blockquote><hr></blockquote><blockquote><p><em>Yes, and it's integral to the game. Many players have wanted to craft exclusively, yet still interact with the world, and we believe we have developed a system that meets that goal.</em></p><p><em>Crafting will be a lot more involved, interactive, and exciting than traditional MMOG harvesting work. We feel strongly that crafting should be a lot more than click-click-click, or setting a harvesting device to extract materials while you go off to actually do something fun. It should involve skills and decisions on the part of the player that ultimately affect the final result achived.</em></p><hr><p>V:SoH FAQ :smileywink:</p></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>It was for SWG and they did it. Ended up all playable areas filled with permanent harvesters, it also made only top level (eg. L60) one can actually sell their crafting. Imagine you can only craft crude till L20, pristine only at L60. Crafting was more fun in SWG tho, because you did not have make subcomponents first 90% of the time (of when you had to make subcomponents? You make a schematic then factory was making it till 1000 times (imagine yourself making a 1000 potion with a single craft), not you waiting for hours to press buttons)</div><div> </div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by selch on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:51 PM</span></p>

[BaezUnleashed]

<div>I am sorry if this has already been asked, but..  does anyone know what happens to the stacks of existing inks, paper and quills we may have already made when these changes roll in?</div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<div></div>yeah, i've been wondering that as well, i haven't looked around too much yet, but a friend of mine told me that my extracts could still be used, i'm hoping all the resins, washes and oils that i have stockpiled as well as quills etc will be used as substitues in the recipies...

[Trebor_]

 One thing this will GREATLY help on, is lower level combines.  As a 60 Sage I get asked a lot to do stuff for peoples twinks, and digging up mats for lvl 13 items can be a pain <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Hey just think positive! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496" target="_blank"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-24-06 9:50 AM]</font></a><img src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif" border="0" alt=""></p><p>Here's eveything the TS Dev has said on the topic so far.  At the time he wrote those, he did not have definate plans on what would happen to existing builds, but he definately does not want us completely screwed over.</p>

[Brigh]

currently a 56 armorer. I have had a good day of 4 orders totaling over 1p in sales.The problem is when they removed the restrictions of cross-class dependencies, they made a TON of work for armorers because no one stocks or wants to make WORTS, paddings, patterns, studs, etc.We have to do all this work using every station except stove, JC bench, and scribing table.

[Moussie]

<div></div>Dont bother wasting time trying to have SoE go back on what they do in test, it wont work, like so many times in the past. Its on the test server so it will go live, no matters what people are saying here.

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Brigh wrote:currently a 56 armorer. I have had a good day of 4 orders totaling over 1p in sales.The problem is when they removed the restrictions of cross-class dependencies, they made a TON of work for armorers because no one stocks or wants to make WORTS, paddings, patterns, studs, etc.We have to do all this work using every station except stove, JC bench, and scribing table.<hr></blockquote><p>it made more work, but it made for less frustration in getting what you need to make stuff, and you don't have to roll an alt just to make the interrims anymore <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hopefully it will be much nicer to the armorers of the world once the new TS stuff comes out...</p><p>i hate chainmail...chainmail sux [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to make <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>not having any new regular recipies from the 6th to the 9th level of every tier sux too heheh</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div>OMG, I'll never have to make patterns to bribe someone to maky my Chain again....

[Xi]

I like the change.  Subcombines are a waste of time.  The pristine combining will still be in place so you should still get a rush outta doing that right.  In reality the subcombines were terribly annoying.  You ever tried to create a lower tier of armor from start to finish?  I needed to make a set of T2 armor, without any previously made components.  I currently work in T5.  It took me a bit over an hour to make a set.  Thats a little excessive.  I'll be happy to have the inventory space back on all the subcomponents I've got made and didnt use (excess WORTs)....This is a positive change.  Now if only they'd add more useful recipes for people who dont make skills and food (the most commonly purchased items)  I'd be in heaven..<div></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>OMG, I'll never have to make patterns to bribe someone to maky my Chain again....<hr></blockquote>OMG i wish you were one of my customers HAHAHAHAHA

[Calthine]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>g0thiCiCecReaM wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>OMG, I'll never have to make patterns to bribe someone to maky my Chain again....<hr></blockquote>OMG i wish you were one of my customers HAHAHAHAHA<hr></blockquote>Well, geez, when you want 7 pieces of chain made, and you're a woodworker, why not?</div>

[Rast]

<div></div><p>I'm kinda mixed on this change...</p><p>I have to say, I was moderately disappointed to find they had removed dependency (I just came back a little over a month ago), but this change is really the result of having done that...  They removed the need to have the sub combines in the hierarchy.</p><p>I understand the issues with Dependency, and in some cases, it may have gone far.  But as an armorer, I shouldn't be making padding, or chemicals or any of that stuff, my 'job' is to pound the dickens out of metal.  That is what I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I think this change will make it more likely to be able to produce lower tier goods, I know I am more likely to keep stuff in lower tiers if I know it won't have to spend hours to make all the sub combines and everything to make a set of armor x tiers below me (which wouldn't be many, I'm only lvl 30 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</p><p>And I hate making chainmail...  I'll be able to do that more with these changes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[geldonyetich]

<div>I can't see much difference myself, in terms of immersion.  This is because I'm able to imagine that I'm going through the process of refining the items into their respective elements (wood into paper, roots into ink, ect) while I'm making the spell.  It's not quite the same as actually having to tote around refined wood and all that, but it's a lot less tedious.</div><div> </div><div>There is one potential issue I see here, and that is that skipping the intermediate steps means less experience points gained from doing trade skills unless you roll all the skipped intermediate step experience points into the remaining step.  I don't think they'll do that because it's less work to do than before.</div>

[Yuglooc]

<div></div><p>As a Sage, my main problem with the current system is that only a small part of my time is spent on my primary ability (Scribing).  As others have mentioned, I need to go through many subcombines using other skills (Thaumaturgy and Woodcraft) to make that spell.  For instance, to complete a Workshop task <em>(which is how I spend most of my crafting time)</em>, I must do the following (for simplicity, Iassume no failures):</p><p>a)  Make 20 each oil, resin, and wash (15 subcombines)</p><p>b)  Make 10 reagents, then 10 dye, then 10 ink (30 subcombines)</p><p>c)  Make 10 paper, then 10 lumber, then 10 quills (30 subcombines)</p><p>d)  Make 10 spell scrolls</p><p>That's 85 total combines to make one batch of spell scrolls for the Workshop task - less than 12% of which use Scribing.  No wonder my Scribing skill is significantly behind the other two.</p><p>I like the idea proposed by the original poster that the tedium be reduced by making each of the items in the final product a one-step subcombine (meaning that for the Sage, I'd make the ink, paper, and quill without going through the steps for the chemicals, dye, and lumber).  Making all final products a one step combine is going way too far though.  That would make EQ2 even simpler than its main competition (which I won't elaborate on here, as this is an official SOE board).</p>

[Tappen]

<div></div>I agree with you, Yuglooc.  My own suggestion (<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=45779" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=45779</a>) was to keep 2 sub-component combines on non-consumable items but 3 is also fine.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Tappen on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:18 AM</span></p>

[Success]

<div>Youglooc,</div><div> </div><div>Setting up crafting so that you just put in the mats for 10 inks and hit combine, then mats for 10 quills and hit combine, then put in the 10 ink and 10 quills ot make 10 spell scrolls would be fine. That's like 3 combines. MUCH better than 85.</div><div> </div><div>You could put in the mats for 1 ink if you are trying to skill or, you could put in mats for 10 inks if oyu are just trying ot get it done and wouldn't gain skill anymore anyway.</div><div> </div><div>The part I hate and disagree with is exactly what you pointed out. 85 subcombines to make 10 spell scrolls.</div>

[Yuglooc]

<div></div><p>Successer:  You're talking about batch processing, which I did not consider in my original response.</p><p>I do agree that batch processing would make things a lot less tedious (since I could make all the ink at once, for instance).  I can accept getting less experience for doing it that way.</p><p>I wonder how this can be incorporated into the current crafting system - how does one determine when failures occur, and to what extent?  For instance, I can try to make 10 pristine carmine inks at a time.  What control do I have in maximizing the chance that all 10 will be pristine (as opposed to lower quality)?</p>

[Success]

<div></div><p>Yea, I meant if they would set it up that way. Wish they would add batch processing like I mentioned.</p><p> </p>

[JediAveng]

<div></div><p>Subcomponents were a pain in the butt. I'm glad they are going away. Now we dont have to have 5 billion bags of crap to make a batch of items.</p><p> </p><p>It was a huge time sink.</p>