No inks, does this mean no Glass loams?

[Sqee]

<div>I've seen allot of posts about the subclass changes, and have yet to see proof of T3 crafting changing like T1 and T2.. this being said i am planning on running the EQ2 test patch tonight when i get home.. and hopefully by tomorrow morning will be into the world.</div><div> </div><div>What i'd like to know (sorry this isnt feedback yet but it will be as soon as i can figure it out) is with the spells no longer needing ink.. in what stage does the glass loam come in?  Or is it going to be the same as the spells, ie... Require one rock, 2 roots, and like 6 coals and probably onther rock (to substitute the temper.)  I'm very interested in following this knowledge up the chain.. and i relize that what is on test may just stay on test and go obsilete..</div><div> </div><div>But i'd really like to know about my potions/poisons  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Or ofcourse the other option of a finished poison not requiring Glass? sooo all the loams i have saved up and was planning on using after the Expansion or LU for 70 is not scrap that i've waisted a great deal of time money and effort on?</div><div> </div><div>Which ever way it comes to be its alright, i'll adapt.. just want to know ?  any insight on this topic?</div>

[bcbroom]

<div></div><p>Currently on test, t1 and t2 skill upgrades do not use inks. I have not heard if this is intended to change for t3+ or not.</p><p>I haven't looked at poisons and potions, but i'll check them.</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>poisons and potions haven't changed yet.  However, there are now reports of a harvested loam.</p><p> </p>

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><p>poisons and potions haven't changed yet.  However, there are now reports of a harvested loam.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>what i read on the topic was fighter spells required the harvested loam.. could be misinformation.. but thats what i saw here

[Calthine]

<div></div>True, but like I said, they haven't changed anything but T1 and T2 Alchie and Sage type spells so far.  We have to wait and see.

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>True, but like I said, they haven't changed anything but T1 and T2 Alchie and Sage type spells so far.  We have to wait and see.<hr></blockquote>*blush* I'm not a patiant mouse... you have no idea how bad i wanna go home sick to get on test and start figuring this stuff out  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Calthine]

<div>Well, newly created toons have no tradeskill skills on test atm, and I dunno about anyone else, but my old test toon can't harvest.  So there's nothing to figure out yet, lol.  Seems to be a work in progress.</div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>bcbroom wrote:<div></div><p>Currently on test, t1 and t2 skill upgrades do not use inks. I have not heard if this is intended to change for t3+ or not.</p><p>I haven't looked at poisons and potions, but i'll check them.</p><hr></blockquote>soooooo...With no inks, how do we make AD3s?</span></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div>With raws.  <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075</a>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>With raws.  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075</a><hr></blockquote>I actually like this concept...  because i am lazy and hate making inks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>With raws.  <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075</a><hr></blockquote>I actually like this concept...  because i am lazy and hate making inks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest.. i'm not overly thrilled.  But then again.. not having experianced it for myself yet i really need to keep my uneducated comments to myself  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... more to come once i can craft on test.

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sqee wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>With raws.  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=41075</a><hr></blockquote>I actually like this concept...  because i am lazy and hate making inks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest.. i'm not overly thrilled.  But then again.. not having experianced it for myself yet i really need to keep my uneducated comments to myself  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... more to come once i can craft on test.<hr></blockquote>Well if it gets applied across the board and the 100 or so ink vials I have stashed become obsolete I wont be happy... but I wont be too stressed since I dont have a lot of cash tied up in them.. just the cost of the fuels/etc to make them...I can see this making it a LOT easier for people to craft up...  it was painful to try to explain some of the steps to some guildies getting started...  and the biggest drawback is if this change is not applied across the board to all tiers... what happens when someone reaches the tier where inks are needed and bam, nothing to tell them what is needed to be done at that point.. it slows everyone down, frustrates people at a change and stalls out their progression.But honestly, getting rid of the subcombines makes for a more aggressive economy as far as I am concerned, with the chance that prices will get driven down as competition increases and ease of creation gets improved.</span></div>

[cheerupbrian]

You can harvest loams from ore nodes, I've only harvested tier 1 and 2 so far. You get leaded loam tier 1 and salty loam tier 2.<div></div>

[Prub]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Personally I think it is a bad idea. this is my thinking.</div><div> </div><div>Assuming pristine on all which realy isnt that hard.</div><div> </div><div>to make an essence of (fighter apps) you need</div><div>1 ink</div><div>1 Resin</div><div>1 susspension</div><div>1 fuel.</div><div> </div><div>  for ink you need</div><div> 1 dye</div><div> 1 wash</div><div>  1 fuel</div><div> </div><div>     for dye you need</div><div>       1 regent</div><div>       1 wash</div><div>       1 fuel</div><div> </div><div>           for regent you need</div><div>             1 raw</div><div>              1 oil</div><div>              1 fuel</div><div>                (gives a loam as a side effect.)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> now for wash oil and resin for each you need</div><div>  1 raw</div><div>   1 water</div><div>   1 fuel</div><div>        But this gives you up to 4 each with each combine.</div><div> </div><div>So if you make 1 app you will use 7 fuels  4 raws and 3 waters and 1 susspension But if you look at say 4 apps.. you will use this</div><div>20 fuels 8 raws 4 waters and 4 susspensions</div><div> </div><div>now looking at the new system (if it goes live) to make 1 spells you would use this.5 fuels 5 raws (if leaded loam is a raw because they ask for it twice in recipe otherwise 4 raws if that is just a mistake)  Seems better than before but now look at 4 complete apps  you will use 20 fuels 16 to 20 raws  not better at all ..  now lets say leaded loam is something you buy like the suspensions so you would need for 1 app 5 fuels 3 raws and 1 or 2 loams  for 4 you would need 20 fuels 12 raws and 4 to 8 loams.</div><div> </div><div>Compare now if you will ..</div><div> </div><div>old way                                                 new way</div><div>7 to 20 fuels                                         5 to 20 fuels</div><div>4 to 8 raws                                           4/5 to 16 / 20 raws (depending on misprints of 2 loams needed for 1 app)</div><div>1 to 4 susspensions                                    0 susspenions</div><div>3 to 4 waters                                         0 waters.</div><div> </div><div>In this comparison you can see you have to do at least 2 times the harvesting (almost 3 times the harvesting) to make apps which would say to me that they should sell more to vendors than the old way but they do not.  I believe it was Kiana who did the test and found that on the test server they sell back for LESS than live.  not to mention that you loose the loam to make a vial/ glass with for poisons/potions.  Which means More harvesting/buying than you need to do.</div><div> </div><div>If you ask me they are adding MORE work and making it MORE tedious in one way but they are making you believe they are lessening the work and tedium.</div><div> </div><div>Just my opinion and I may be wrong on my numbers.</div><div> </div><div>Prub</div><div> </div><div>EDIT ok someone said loams are harvested. making changes based on that.</div><p>Message Edited by Prub on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:25 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Prub on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Prub on <span class="date_text">01-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:28 PM</span></p>

[Success]

<div></div><p>I hope they change potions/poisons. Hopefully for the better. The problem is, most people on our server have their t6 adept 3s, etc. and loams are getting in short supply and the cost of poisons and potions have skyrocketed.</p><p>Things like this that are much needed and widely used, should not depend on a byproduct, especially of something that fluctuates so bad. You should be able to make bottles from normal products, maybe even a new raw called sand or something or, since there is so much sand around, just assume the bottle is there and just make the potion/poison.</p>

[Prub]

<div></div><p>If they want to make it less tedious they should make it so you can craft stacks of subcombines at 1 time or 1 at a time so you have the choice of potentially getting a full stack of less than pristine or do it the old way for 1 at a time.</p><p> </p><p>That would make it less tedious and mind numbing if you ask me.  Just my thoughts on it.</p><p> </p><p>Prub.</p><p>(and yes I have a lot of crafters. so I know the crafting numbness very well LOL)</p>

[Calman]

Well lets face it crafters have had a bad time of it full stop. major updates to gameplay with hardly anything new happening on the crafting front. I remember at one point SOE had plans for crafting and one of the plans was making stacks of sub components. However seems crafting has faded from the devs minds. so much I think they wish they had never put crafting in the EQ2 at all.I am sure the competition has noted the lack of develoment in EQ2's crafting system though, so just a matter of time. before players that enjoycrafting can move on.<div></div>

[Success]

<div></div>It was just badly designed and implemented was all.

[Sritt]

<div></div><p>Also keep in mind this is an alpha patch, and the tradeskill changes aren't finished (as can be seen by the fact that new characters can't craft, the only recipe changes are on tier 1 and tier 2, the new tier 1 loam apparently doesn't appear on the newbie island rocks).</p><p>I honestly suspect the recipe changes we're seeing is a side-effect of the changes and not how the recipes will be in the end. If you're revamping the system for balance the easiest way to see the requirements for a recipe is to boil it down to the raw ingredients for each of its subcombines to get a 'raw cost' for the recipe. This doesn't mean that when its done things will be using the raws, after all if they did that every time you crafted an item you'd have the chance for a pristine. I suspect varios subcombines may go away (washes, oils) but the main component subcombine will stay (ink, faceted gem, etc) since that subcombine affects the quality of the end item.</p><p>I really think what we're seeing in teh t1 and t2 recipes is just a transitory state as they work on the changes and that 19b will give us a better idea of the new system.</p>

[Rijacki]

And... nothing says that the newbie progression is making it to Live with the rest of 19.  They might be keeping that on Test a bit longer, the same way they did with combat changes.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:And... nothing says that the newbie progression is making it to Live with the rest of 19.  They might be keeping that on Test a bit longer, the same way they did with combat changes.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's what I'm thinking.  They've requested so much specific feedback, and they're staying on it.  No reason they shouldn't take another month to work that out. 

[bcbroom]

<div></div><p>currently t1/t2 poisons and potions still use regular glass. (dont know if this will change)</p><p>there is a new harvested loam off of ore rocks (for t1/t2...havent seen any in t3+) that is used for fighter adepts. The harvested loam is the primary component (and the fighter adept3's use a new rare loam off the same rocks).  Currently, the loam recepies do not work, but these are the correct components (they do use the harvested loam and not the crafted byproduct of reagents).</p><p>Also, currently, the preist/mage/scout adept3's for t1/t2 use lapis or coral only. I am assuming this is a mistake, and they should take (t1 metal?) or silver as well, but I really have no idea.</p>

[bcbroom]

<div></div>also, remember this is only 19a...i have heard there may be 4 parts to this one.

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:And... nothing says that the newbie progression is making it to Live with the rest of 19.  They might be keeping that on Test a bit longer, the same way they did with combat changes.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats kindof what i was thinking too... if they where implementing this fully, i think it would be on more than T1 and T2.. and crafters would prolly be able to come over and get right into it... 

[Prub]

<div></div><p>but this is also the feedback area if I am correct so we should be able to give our feedback on the idea.  To have someone say well it is test and they may not keep it that way is no reason to not post our thoughts on it.  If we didnt they might not change anything due to possibly thinking hey they like the change and nothing is wrong with it.</p><p> </p><p>But hey that is just my opinion. </p><p> </p><p>Prub</p>

[Sqee]

<div></div><p>Well.. this type in insight is the exact reason i posted the origanol thread... unfortunatly i wount be able to post my insight on the true nature of the beast until lowbies can once again craft on test...</p><p> </p><p>Then again, what if *like some one hinted* the reason they put everything down to this specification is to just be looking at the combine rates.  Getting down to brass tacks so in the programming phase they can look at the reciepes and see what it is.. maybe thats why it wasnt changed accross the board?</p><p> </p><p>Although I should really wait on official response from a red name before I make to much speculations.  Being test server any reason of ghosts is the reason we will see.</p>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Prub wrote:<div></div><p>but this is also the feedback area if I am correct so we should be able to give our feedback on the idea.  To have someone say well it is test and they may not keep it that way is no reason to not post our thoughts on it.  If we didnt they might not change anything due to possibly thinking hey they like the change and nothing is wrong with it.</p><hr></blockquote>All I was saying is don't be alarmed if it does (or doesn't) go Live next week or even that their haven't been patch notes on it (Tradeskill changes often don't get in the notes.. for whatever reason).The sky isn't falling..... yet.And, since I am sitting on a couple stacks of rare loams, most of which I bought on the broker, I have a lot at stake, too, if potions and poisons no longer use glass or vials or if they got completely and utterly frelled because the devs forgot they're made with a by product of ink making.I wouldn't even be surprised if the tradeskill changes are brought about slowly with T1 and T2 spells getting the changes first and then trickling up and out.  Frankly, I am of 2 minds on all the tradeskill -possible- changes.  No builds, rather helpful across the board and I'd rather that then batch refines/interims since one class would be left completely out of that benefit (sages).  But... no builds means tradeskilling becomes trivial and barely above the click-click-clone I despise.. but.. the whole reactive system would still be in place and how much, other than one component, really mattered in that anyway?  Some tradeskills were more penalised than others and others had clearly more benefits.. i.e. spells and CAs requiring the most pristines but armoring (I think) requiring the most subs and provisioners having character usable products from the refine stage.The original crafting system (including the tradeskill societies) was an interesting concept and -could- have built community.. IF most players were interested in working together and the cut-throat gouging was the minority.  But... sadly.. society as we know it today, even the gaming society, is not mature enough to handle a real communal environment and work to the betterment of others as well as self.</span><div></div>

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<span>All I was saying is don't be alarmed if it does (or doesn't) go Live next week or even that their haven't been patch notes on it (Tradeskill changes often don't get in the notes.. for whatever reason).The sky isn't falling..... yet.And, since I am sitting on a couple stacks of rare loams, most of which I bought on the broker, I have a lot at stake, too, if potions and poisons no longer use glass or vials or if they got completely and utterly frelled because the devs forgot they're made with a by product of ink making.I wouldn't even be surprised if the tradeskill changes are brought about slowly with T1 and T2 spells getting the changes first and then trickling up and out.  Frankly, I am of 2 minds on all the tradeskill -possible- changes.  No builds, rather helpful across the board and I'd rather that then batch refines/interims since one class would be left completely out of that benefit (sages).  But... no builds means tradeskilling becomes trivial and barely above the click-click-clone I despise.. but.. the whole reactive system would still be in place and how much, other than one component, really mattered in that anyway?  Some tradeskills were more penalised than others and others had clearly more benefits.. i.e. spells and CAs requiring the most pristines but armoring (I think) requiring the most subs and provisioners having character usable products from the refine stage.<font color="#ff0000">The original crafting system (including the tradeskill societies) was an interesting concept and -could- have built community.. IF most players were interested in working together and the cut-throat gouging was the minority.  But... sadly.. society as we know it today, even the gaming society, is not mature enough to handle a real communal environment and work to the betterment of others as well as self.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Personaly.. id like to see it come back... it would give me an excuse to make things, and would leade me in a purpose of crafting rather than xp.</p><p> </p><p>*so and so needs 400 paddings so he can make his armor.. guess i'll get started*</p><p> </p><p>Ofcourse being that i have as many crafters as i do, i'd kindof own the market.. but hey.  I'm one of the cheapest alchemists on my server... and if the changes that are in place go live accross the board i'll not be able to keep my prices as low as they are because i'll be at the mercy of the harvesters.. roots are already to expensive, imagine if i had to use twice as many  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Sad Panda</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>BUT, like i said in another post, or in this one (to many posts) I need to wait to see a rednamed official post before i start going ape over the changes.. not to mention i need to experiance them.. and its killing me that even if i log into the test island tonight, i'll not beable to start a crafter  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>I challenge thee red name.. Tell whats up.</p>

[thepriz]

I would like the original system back, but I guess that is not going to happen. I would say that what I saw was not very impressive in my opinion. They keep dumming down the tradeskills and making it more and more like click and presto like it was in EQ1. I really liked the interdependancies of all the tradeskills, and I still play my artisens that way. It seems that they are just going to make it even more dummy down if they really decide to go through with the changes.... And if I can't use the rare inks that I have saved up and made for adept III, I defenitly will be very upset with the artisan changes. I guess I will wait and test them when they are made available on test....<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<span><blockquote><hr>thepriz wrote:They keep dumming down the tradeskills and making it more and more like click and presto like it was in EQ1.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That was more like "click and HAHA SUCKERS! There goes 2 weeks of work!"</span><div></div>

[Rijacki]

I doubt that the reactive interface for tradeskills is going away even if subs did.  I doubt the tradeskill XP (vs a 100% random skill-up) is going away even if crafting was all from raws.<div></div>

[Skylher]

<div></div>and dont forget that dyes are needed for carpenters to make paintings. knowing the devs, no potions or paintings will be able to be made due to them overlooking this minor yet major detail