Tradeskill subclasses?

[MrMartin]

<div>Now with the Adventure-class revamp I came to think about tradeskills.</div><div>Will there be a similar revamp there?I dont have to go Artisan - Craftsman - Carpenter?I can go directly to Carpenter?</div>

[G3IST]

They must being doing something to tradeskills now that depending on your class you can wear vlight to heavy armor at lvl1, would think that recipies would be added for t1 medium and heavy, and t2 heavy armor.

[Carryne]

I think that the tradeskill subclasses are fine as they are.  Having all of the recipies available means more opportunities for finding out which class you want to play and also offers more bonus xp for the first pristine item.<div></div>

[Nutari2176]

<div></div>What I think he is asking is will there no longer be sub-classes for tradeskills such as outfitter, craftsman, etc.....  I know that for me when I am first doing my running around in Qeynos or Freeport I hit up the guy in Qeynos Harbor if good of course and pick a choice but if I do not go tradeskill right away I may forget what it is and on my character all I see is level 5 artisan.  It would be much easier when you talk to that guy you get a choice like do you want to be a sage, privisioner, woodworker, carpenter, armorsmith, tailorer, weaponsmith etc.  I am not asking for new recipes myself but knowing what trade class I am without having to gain about 14 levels in it to get a final choice would be a big help.

[Magu]

They haven't said anything about redoing tradeskills, so odds are the subclass system will remain for them.<div></div>

[Rijacki]

The tradeskill guy on the Freeport newbie island (on Test) isn't talkin' yet nor is the tradeskill basement (storm-cellar like entrance behind the tower) opening up... There has been long said they're working on "revamping" tradeskills, too, so.. maybe this is when they're planning to bring them in?I agree, now that they're changing the armors characters can wear at a much lower level... the recipes will need to be added.As for "more pristine experience"... umm... trasdeskill stuff in T1 goes grey fast fast fast before you can even get a quarter of the potential pristine bonuses.  Recently I started an alt on Live and her 1-9 experience was solely doing the quests first on the island and then the continuation in town.  I even XP capped her before I finished (hadn't gone to get the clas yet).  T2 is fast fast, too and you have the cross crafting books in T2 so you can get everything except finished for all classes.<div></div>

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<div></div><p>Waves to Rijacki!</p><p>Greetings all upon the test server that are questioning the tradeskills... I found myself washed up on the shores and was disappointed that I wasnt able to start my time at the stove as being one who is huge in stature requires alot of good snacks and strong beverages.ooc- I hope that with the next part of this Massive update that is planned that we can enter the tradeskill instances and start crafting abit before we find our homes.</p><p>M.</p><p> </p>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:<div></div><p>Waves to Rijacki!</p><p>ooc- I hope that with the next part of this Massive update that is planned that we can enter the tradeskill instances and start crafting abit before we find our homes.</p><hr></blockquote>*waves back with grins**nods*(but... think about it... the devs have been saying a tradeskill revamp is coming.. what better time to "slip" it in?  The tradeskill-y guy will likely have all sorts of lovely tidbits on how it works and stuff.  I might be an optimist, but.. that's my suspicion.. since it would be kinda wasteful to put in an old system and change it a few weeks later.. hmm?)</span><div></div>

[Salmastryon]

A curious thing of note on tradeskills is that apparently skills/spells no longer take components,  you can make em with just the raw materials and extra fuel.  That is what the sage on test told me when she made me soem appIVs.  Tomorrow I'll log onmy weaponsmith and see if there are any changes to her.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div>O.o...  okay, I'm firing up the Test Patch.  It's been ages, this will take forever.</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>OKay, here's what I've got.  The first pic is from Live.  The second is from Test.  Looks like, at least of the spells I examined, Spells, Essences, and Runes are now taking raws.  (I also examind a weapon, it used the builds I'm used to seeing).</p><p>Live Pic:</p><p><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/calthine/live_t1_recipes.jpg"></p><p> </p><p>Test Pic:</p><p><img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/calthine/Test_T1_Recipes.jpg"></p>

[Rijacki]

*blink*Looks like the start of something new.  I'm sure it won't be just for spells.That might also explain why there have -seemed- to be delays on tradeskill fixes (stuff doesn't always get into the notes, either, for whatever reason).<div></div>

[Griffinclaw]

<div></div><p>This makes perfect sense....... The dev in charge of TS, Beghn, I think is his name, said awhile ago, they were looking into a revamp of TS's that would eliminate the need to make a lot of sub-components.  Looks like its here</p><p> </p>

[Sump]

It just looks like they are removing all subcombines.  Making all final combines toplevel with the same amount of raws needed.If you look at the "sage" example of lightning burst: ingredients needed:   raw malachite: base for the ink   2 roots:  wash for the ink,oils for the quill/paper   2 raw elm:  one for the quill, one for the paper   5 incense:  it took 5 combines with the old systemSo the cost of crafting won't go up or down, but the tedium will drop off like rock.Sorry you wasted all that plat for advanced apothecary volume 6.Sump<div></div>

[Sump]

Of all my tradeskill toons, this makes my provisioner the happiest.<div></div>

[Gilson-Bertox]

I believe I need to change my pants, I'm so happy.<div></div>

[Spectralmist]

<div>/pales</div><div> </div><div>/trembles</div><div> </div><div>/wipes tear away</div><div> </div><div>How sad.</div><div> </div><div>I LIKE the complexity of things...</div><div> </div><div>Granted, it'll make things go quicker, and that's not entirely a bad thing, but it takes some of the intricacy out of tradeskills.</div><div> </div><div>and talk about the flames from classes that don't make spells!</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Spectralmist wrote:<div>/pales</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>and talk about the flames from classes that don't make spells!</div><hr></blockquote>I liked the complexity too, but since their goal was 'more fun less tedious' this makes sense.  And the non-spell-making classes perhaps should wait until the official announcement, lol.  Or at least 19b!

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>I just popped on to Test, responding to questions here and elsewhere...  Bear in mind this toon is low level and has no rare recipes, please.</p><p>The Reagent (and loam), Dye, and Ink recipes are still there as of 1/14.   But if it were me, removing build recipes would be the last thing I'd do.</p>

[Sem]

<div></div><p>Wow I'd <u>love</u> this if it goes to all classes.  </p><p>The one thing that makes me procrastinate and put off a Tradeskilling day to make a set of furniture for someone is the 2 day set-up it takes me to make 6 tiers of WORTs and then all the refines & combines for padding, cloth, studs, struts, sheets, plates, dowels &  planed lumber.  </p><p>Eliminating the 2 days of "cleaning out the garage" type chores and getting me straight to the 1/2 day of making the final combines that I find fun and want to make gets major applause from me for the folks who came up with that.</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div>Oh, potions an poisons (at least as far as I can see) still use various fungi solutions.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<div></div><p>w00t! This is going to make being an Armorer so much quicker! Finally no need for the stressful process of making a component out of a rare then the final product! Half the hair loss <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm looking forward to this.</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div>If this goes through you can kiss the tradeskill economy good-bye and without any writs I'd probably just quit tradeskills altogether.

[Calthine]

<blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels. 

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels. <hr></blockquote>Your making the final product with the value of the subcomponents, without the subcomponents that value goes away regardless if its the same number of fuels. Yah can't say I'll miss that small 3% bonus much either but all the subcomponent values will be gone, the subs basically are raws and the raws are a much lesser value than the subs, unless they plain on changing something

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels. <hr></blockquote>Your making the final product with the value of the subcomponents, without the subcomponents that value goes away regardless if its the same number of fuels. Yah can't say I'll miss that small 3% bonus much either but all the subcomponent values will be gone, the subs basically are raws and the raws are a much lesser value than the subs, unless they plain on changing something<hr></blockquote>But the subcomponent value was just raw + fuel + the teeny per combine.  The raw and fuel are still there.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels. <hr></blockquote>Your making the final product with the value of the subcomponents, without the subcomponents that value goes away regardless if its the same number of fuels. Yah can't say I'll miss that small 3% bonus much either but all the subcomponent values will be gone, the subs basically are raws and the raws are a much lesser value than the subs, unless they plain on changing something<hr></blockquote>But the subcomponent value was just raw + fuel + the teeny per combine.  The raw and fuel are still there.<hr></blockquote>That is incorrect due to worts, even when pristined. But I guess I'll just have to wait and compare a T5 writ after this LU to our data from old writ way that we have now and prove it :smileywink: <p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<div></div><p>All it is is Tradeskills without the monotony. Prices will not drop below vendor prices. There will ALWAYS be people that sell things way too high. People will NOT settle for low profits just because it takes less time to create the final combine. Prices will only drop a little and eventually prices will inflate again.</p><p> </p><p>In conclusion, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote>But the subcomponent value was just raw + fuel + the teeny per combine.  The raw and fuel are still there.<hr></blockquote>That is incorrect due to worts, even when pristined. But I guess I'll just have to wait and compare a T5 writ after this LU to our data from old writ way that we have now and prove it :smileywink: <p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>And *that* is incorrect, because if you look the raw for the chams is still there.  as a matter of fact, it could work to your advantage, as it's using a WHOLE raw for the chem.  Meaning no pristine wort at 1/4 the value of a raw.</p><p> </p><p>Fine, I'll grab my toons on test and live and go do a T1 combine.  brb.</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Deadly Nightshadow wrote:<div></div><p>All it is is Tradeskills without the monotony. Prices will not drop below vendor prices. There will ALWAYS be people that sell things way too high. People will NOT settle for low profits just because it takes less time to create the final combine. Prices will only drop a little and eventually prices will inflate again.</p><p> </p><p>In conclusion, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><p>There's arguements ALL THE TIME about 'Hey you shouldn't charge this much, it only takes ## of time to make!' Then eventually someone starts charging less and the price gets adjusted.</p><p>I know when I get some spare time I'll be attacking the lower tiers, I mean why not? Takes a couple clicks on the broker then 'click combine' and I'm done, if I think like that, then trust me Many and many others will.</p><p>On a note I do think the lower tier economy should be cheaper, this will make it cheaper for sure, but the higher tier economy shouldn't suffer because of that...and oh you bet my plat it will.</p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote>But the subcomponent value was just raw + fuel + the teeny per combine.  The raw and fuel are still there.<hr></blockquote>That is incorrect due to worts, even when pristined. But I guess I'll just have to wait and compare a T5 writ after this LU to our data from old writ way that we have now and prove it :smileywink: <p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>And *that* is incorrect, because if you look the raw for the chams is still there.  as a matter of fact, it could work to your advantage, as it's using a WHOLE raw for the chem.  Meaning no pristine wort at 1/4 the value of a raw.</p><p> </p><p>Fine, I'll grab my toons on test and live and go do a T1 combine.  brb.</p><hr></blockquote>Tier 1? Lol... I don't wanna know anything about that tier, how can you even tell ? All coppers and cents lol<p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote>But the subcomponent value was just raw + fuel + the teeny per combine.  The raw and fuel are still there.<hr></blockquote>That is incorrect due to worts, even when pristined. But I guess I'll just have to wait and compare a T5 writ after this LU to our data from old writ way that we have now and prove it :smileywink: <p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p><strong> as a matter of fact, it could work to your advantage, as it's using a WHOLE raw for the chem.  Meaning no pristine wort at 1/4 the value of a raw</strong>.</p><hr></blockquote>Hmmm, true enough, but the final value will still be less. I guess there COULD be a balance, I'll just wait and see.

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>Tier 1? Lol... I don't wanna know anything about that tier, how can you even tell ? All coppers and cents lol, and hun its no biggie<hr></blockquote>T1 will show any difference..  and it's the only recipes I have in common between Live and Test

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote>Tier 1? Lol... I don't wanna know anything about that tier, how can you even tell ? All coppers and cents lol, and hun its no biggie<hr></blockquote>T1 will show any difference..  and it's the only recipes I have in common between Live and Test<hr></blockquote>T1's raw value is completely different from T5, remember raw value does not stack up x4 each tier so as T1 might look fine and dandy T5 will be totally different.

[Calthine]

<div></div>But there is still a value for raws, and the difference will show, if there is one.  Hush and let me do combines <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>But there is still a value for raws, and the difference will show, if there is one.  Hush and let me do combines <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Yes ma'am :smileysad:

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Well I just made 23 plat today, my rich list competitors aren't gonna like that, see what you did SOE! :smileytongue:</p><p>Safe to say all sub blockers for T6 writs, you can now officially vendor em</p><p>Wow that's one change I"m gonna like, Buy Stack Now broker button! Time to load up again, dang what a waste of time heh</p><p><span class="time_text">You called it 3 months ago Calthine lol, you said hope you sub stockers get screwed hehe, well we did..well I see it as a wasted investement is all, I got plenty of those (Ironwood anyone?) and really I can't say I'm screwed with 23 more plat in my pockets :smileyvery-happy:</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><span class="time_text">You called it 3 months ago Calthine lol, you said hope you sub stockers get screwed hehe, well we did..</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually, I just reserved the right to say I told you so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  kk, Live combine done, hopping to test. </p><p>haha - have to go harvest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:09 AM</span></p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><span class="time_text">You called it 3 months ago Calthine lol, you said hope you sub stockers get screwed hehe, well we did..</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually, I just reserved the right to say I told you so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  kk, Live combine done, hopping to test.<hr></blockquote>Yep yep hehe, which is fine, and on the contrary, I'm used to it and have been SOOO used to it - How about you all? :smileytongue:  (where's Motown when yah need him :smileymad: )

[Calthine]

<div></div>Lightning Burst, made with all Pristine on Live, sells back for 8c more than it does the new way on Test.

[Siare]

<div></div>My girlfriend made about 80 stacks of provisioner subcombines and stored them up waiting for T6 writs to get put in.  Did she just waste an assload of time or will she be able to use these when they get off their [Removed for Content] and put writs in?

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><p>Who knows?  Kinda have to wait until we see what pans out on Test.</p><p>edit:  if she's worried, she's got until this change goes live to make them into finals and market them *shrug*  or vendor dump.</p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p>

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Siareph wrote:<div></div>My girlfriend made about 80 stacks of provisioner subcombines and stored them up waiting for T6 writs to get put in.  Did she just waste an assload of time or will she be able to use these when they get off their [Removed for Content] and put writs in?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes she did and no she didn't</p><p>See with provisioners you can use all those subs for finals , even cruded/shaped its still good</p><p>Scholar stuff even Pristine is crap.</p><p>So I wasted money and time, she only wasted time, people by watery/bland, savory/chilled stuff all the time.</p><p>Bottom line though, like I said in the posts above - do not wait, vendor now, its kinda common sense at this point.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:51 AM</span></p>

[Lilj]

<div></div><p>I won't even try to predict how this will affect the economy and the community <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But one thing that worries me is the exp for crafting. Without all the subcombines it seems to me we can only get exp from the final products. So instead of making a high amount of  worts and subcombines, I have to make a very high number of final products? This will indeed flood the market, if every crafter that is levelling will put up 40 leather gloves, 40 hats etc etc.</p><p>Final combines have always given a good amount of exp, and I 'thought' that was due to the amount of subcombines it involved (not sure if this is infact correct). I wonder if the exp from the final combine will now fall or stay the same.</p><p> </p><p>Hmm..will be interesting to see what happens.</p><p> </p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div>*shrug*  don't flood the market then, sell them back to the NPC.  Or do writs and tasks, which on Live are still there through lvl 49.  (I didn't check on test)<p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:26 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div></div>Well this will also help those who complained that you levelled tradeskills too fast. If you lose the exp you gained from subcombines then you will level slower. I gained 3 levels in about an hour just doing the subcombines for the 'seeking a profession' quest line. Overall on that quest line I gained more exp off subcombines than I did on the final products.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sritthh wrote:<div></div>Well this will also help those who complained that you levelled tradeskills too fast. If you lose the exp you gained from subcombines then you will level slower. I gained 3 levels in about an hour just doing the subcombines for the 'seeking a profession' quest line. Overall on that quest line I gained more exp off subcombines than I did on the final products.<hr></blockquote><p>That's incorrect, Buying up raws (In stacks now w00t to that change!) going to your final station and click and go on all the finals you want > building up multiple subs from multiple stations and then going to the finals, especially for the classes with lots of pristine bonus exp choices.</p><p>Final combines per hour > refine + interim combines per hour</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Final combines per hour > refine + interim combines per hour</p><hr></blockquote>In T1 where everything's a Discovery on Pristine?  perhaps not, in those precise circumstances.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Final combines per hour > refine + interim combines per hour</p><hr></blockquote>In T1 where everything's a Discovery on Pristine?  perhaps not, in those precise circumstances.<hr></blockquote>True, but T1 is what 20 minutes? :smileyvery-happy:

[SirWolven2]

<div></div>What happens when you leave the Queen's Colony with no Tradeskill skills?

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SirWolven2 wrote:<div></div>What happens when you leave the Queen's Colony with no Tradeskill skills?<hr></blockquote>......

[Calthine]

<div>I can only guess.  'Before', if you left IoR never having gotten near craftng it was no big deal, you could hop right into it.  The only disadvantage was an introductory tutorial that was handy for learning about the interface. </div>

[Sritt]

<div></div>Currently nothing happens if you leave with no tradeskills. You can pick your level 10 subclass but still not do any crafting. I'm assuming when 19b comes out we'll have a TS instance/tutorial with the Tradeskill Trainer NPC and if our tradeskill is still at 'unskilled' when we talk to the citizenship registrar and choose to leave the island it will grant us tradeskill abilities like the old island did.

[Tau Nemes]

<div><hr size="2" width="100%">/pales</div><div> </div><div>/trembles</div><div> </div><div>/wipes tear away</div><div> </div><div>How sad.</div><div> </div><div>I LIKE the complexity of things...</div><div> </div><div>Granted, it'll make things go quicker, and that's not entirely a bad thing, but it takes some of the intricacy out of tradeskills.</div><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana">Err... complexity is exactly the opposite of doing over and over, mindlessly the same *simple* repetitive task. That kind of task is reserved to machines in real factories.And you want them in a a game? Remember, we play games to have <i>FUN</i>. (Amazingly there is way too many people in this game who likes to be bored to tears;  it is good to see that the developers are changing it, in this and other areas)Of course, a complex strategic challenge is fun (which BTW, is nowhere in tradeskills) -- while doing the simpler taks of robots over and over and over.... well, isn't.Try to relax and enjoy the game for being a game, not a chore. <span>:smileyhappy:</span>I hope they really take those subcombines out with the next LU. (As it is now is dreadful)</font> <div></div>

[dping28]

<div></div>So I guess all those rares I have turned into inks and saved up as inventory to pull from when i get orders for spells will be completely useless when this comes live huh?

[Tau Nemes]

<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">So I guess all those rares I have turned into inks and saved up as inventory to pull from when i get orders for spells will be completely useless when this comes live huh?<hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana">Nope, the only thing that changes is how you'll make the inks from now on. You'll still need the inks for spells and CA's as always.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tau Nemesis on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:52 PM</span></p>

[dping28]

<div></div>Oh ok, I must have misunderstood the change, though there was no need for inks anymore just throw all raws/rares in and it combines final..

[Tau Nemes]

<div></div><font color="#6666ff" size="3" face="Verdana">Well after looking to the samples in test again (take a look: http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/calthine/Test_T1_Recipes.jpg )As you see, is not using inks.So... if I were you, make spells now out of those inks. Or sell the inks. But it is very sure the you could use the ink instead of the rare (use one or the other) I guess they'll do that to not screw people in your situation.Besides that (if you have a sage as I do) we SAVE lots of time, going directly to make the spell and not all that other stuff. We only need the raw.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tau Nemesis on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:25 PM</span></p>

[afeather]

Everybody understands this is a change for Sages only right?They already told us that the other TS will get the ability to do 20 of an item at one go (not the final product) and this using raws was compensation to sages that didn't do those.So my question is has the ability to make 20 lumber or 20 Resin at once shown up on test yet?(I assume that all 20 would be come out the same quality...If you blow the Pristine ya blow it for the whole 20)<div></div>

[Carryne]

Looking at the screenshots above it seems that I had better change my clusters into spells as soon as possible since the new recipies appear to only use gems.  This effectively halves the rares available for the making of spells.<div></div>

[cheerupbrian]

Something I just noticed, The adventure class forums changed to just the 24 final classes, the trsdeskill forum only has the nine final classes could be getting rid of artisan, outfitter, craftsman and scholar. Have to wait and see next test update. Any idea when it will go to test?<div></div>

[Caethre]

<div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>I'm not sure if I like this change or not. On the plus side, it's great to lose a lot of tedium. But on the downside, the amount of XP I can make from a fixed quantity of raws is likely to drop hugely. This does not concern me at the level cap, but once a new expansion comes out ...</p><p>As a 60 Sage, My plan had been when KoS came out, like when DoF was released, to make all my own WORTs, paper, wood and quills, and buy in the ink (I despise making ink), and then make all my spells. I would start at 60 and make something like 10 or 15 stacks EACH of tier7 quills and paper from raws, and only once I had gained a couple of levels almost from them alone, would I start to make App4 spells. This worked a treat at Tier6. The XP from a single subcomponent combine might be lower than that of a final, but the sheer number of subcomponent combines for a Sage, although mind-numbingly tedious, meant that the XP one could gain per fixed quantity of raws was quite reasonable.</p><p>If I lose all that XP from subcomponents, and can only make finals, it would mean I had to make a lot more finals for the same XP, which means, I would need a LOT more raws for the same XP. Since I also harvest myself, this means spending a LOT more time harvesting (and the same for every other crafter, or at least, for harvesters spporting those crafters). This might lead to more profiteeting on common raw prices, something I disapprove of greatly.</p><p>So, jury is out for me, I will see how it pans out.</p><p> </p>

[Thicket Tundrabog]

I'm going to like this change. Leveling up will be a bit easier. Fewer discovery bonuses will be more than offset by the higher experience gained from final combines.What really makes things better is custom orders from people. Now I go through a myriad of subcombines. Just getting raws and doing a final combine will be sooooo much easier.<div></div>

[Bhee]

Looks like TS complexity is going to go down (I mean endless combines). This is a good thing. As a level 60 alchemist I have had my fair share of mindless (well, sort off) clicking umpteen number of keys. These changes will make life simpler.I like the changes.BheemaTemplar 60, Alchemist 60Antonia Bayle<div></div>

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div>O.o...  okay, I'm firing up the Test Patch.  It's been ages, this will take forever.</div><hr></blockquote>dido

[Sqee]

<div></div><p>Sorry for two in a row.. but..</p><p> </p><p>after reading more into this, i have a question on the topic as well...   Do we still get the loams from making the spells? or will my potion/poison business be affected by that as well?</p><p> </p><p>I hate to sound dramatic... but i'm a bit scared for the revamp... i have like, one of every crafter known to man, i've spent ALLOT of time on my chars and i dont wanna have to completely relearn ALL of them.. then again i really dodged a bullet with LU13 (being a bruiser) so maybe this is just fates way of getting even?</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>afeather wrote:Everybody understands this is a change for Sages only right?They already told us that the other TS will get the ability to do 20 of an item at one go (not the final product) and this using raws was compensation to sages that didn't do those.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Incorrect, if you look at my screenie you'll see it on an alchie spell too.  And As far as we know Batch refines have been tabled for now (a supposition taken from a Blackguard 'net radio interview about 2 months ago) while they work on making TSing 'more fun, less tedious'.

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>cheerupbrian wrote:Something I just noticed, The adventure class forums changed to just the 24 final classes, the trsdeskill forum only has the nine final classes could be getting rid of artisan, outfitter, craftsman and scholar. Have to wait and see next test update. Any idea when it will go to test?<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's been like that over a month now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  They've been cleaning up less used areas of the forums.

[Viln]

<div></div><p><a target="top" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=60894"><span>Calthine</span></a> wrote:</p><p><em>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels.</em></p><p>Can you do a test of a higher tier? Or are those not in yet? Because you use more than 5 fuels to make them if you are a sage. I think it's more like 10. Will you use more fuels for the higher level spells? And how will the interdependancy work with that, if I bought my inks from an alchemist before? No need for it?</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vilnus wrote:<div></div><p><a target="top" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=60894"><span>Calthine</span></a> wrote:</p><p><em>Explain to me where the Writ profits went.  All we loose is a very teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit per combine.  Look at the spells above - same number of raws, same number of fuels.</em></p><p>Can you do a test of a higher tier? Or are those not in yet? Because you use more than 5 fuels to make them if you are a sage. I think it's more like 10. Will you use more fuels for the higher level spells? And how will the interdependancy work with that, if I bought my inks from an alchemist before? No need for it?</p><hr></blockquote><p>a) I'm not old enough, and b) elsewhere someone has reported these changes are only T1 and T2 so far. </p><p>However:  For common spells you only use about 5 fuels if you're not using alt-arts for your builds, regardless of level.  For rares it's closer to 10 (frankly, I never made a count.  My WW on live uses 10-20 fuels per rare final depending on the item).  If they are consistant with this, Adept 3 spells will take more fuel as they do currently.  (Anyone got a T1-T2 Sage or Alchy on Test with Adept 3 recipes?)</p><p>Also, <em>if</em> this change is consistant and stays in game, looks like you won't be using ink anymore.  In other words, interdependancy goes completely bye-bye. </p>

[Dawnrise]

<div>I noticed while mining ore in Oakmyst yesterday, that it is pretty much split between Tin and Leaded Loam.  There is now a rare ore and a rare loam - the usual Bronze Cluster and the new Solidified Loam (I think that was the name).</div><div> </div><div>Looks like tonight I'll be logging on my Sage and using my my stock of rare inks, or selling them off - I'm off on vacation tomorrow until the 28th - it'd suck big time if they implemented this while I was away and so end up with a bunch of useless rare inks when I get back! :smileysurprised:</div><div> </div><div>Deep</div>

[cheerupbrian]

Yes both adventure and tradesskill forums have been like thatfor awhile  and look what happen to the adventure classes, I'm guessing same will happen to tradeskils you choose your main class at start. We'll have to wait and see, my moneys' on main class at start.<div></div>

[QuestingCrafter]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>There's arguements ALL THE TIME about 'Hey you shouldn't charge this much, it only takes ## of time to make!' Then eventually someone starts charging less and the price gets adjusted.</p><hr></blockquote>Heh, when someone balks at 10g for T5 ebon armor production, I point out that in the time to do all the combines, I could farm 20g-30g easily in PoF solo. Hey, if they want to break it down to time, I'll happily bill the real value of my time.  *LOL*

[OperationsX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Priapm wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>There's arguements ALL THE TIME about 'Hey you shouldn't charge this much, it only takes ## of time to make!' Then eventually someone starts charging less and the price gets adjusted.</p><hr></blockquote>Heh, when someone balks at 10g for T5 ebon armor production, I point out that in the time to do all the combines, I could farm 20g-30g easily in PoF solo. Hey, if they want to break it down to time, I'll happily bill the real value of my time.  *LOL*<hr></blockquote>Heck yah especially Tier 7, will be about to make 20-30g in like a few minutes max soloing..

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>I'm not sure if I like this change or not. On the plus side, it's great to lose a lot of tedium. But on the downside, the amount of XP I can make from a fixed quantity of raws is likely to drop hugely. This does not concern me at the level cap, but once a new expansion comes out ...</p><p>As a 60 Sage, My plan had been when KoS came out, like when DoF was released, to make all my own WORTs, paper, wood and quills, and buy in the ink (I despise making ink), and then make all my spells. I would start at 60 and make something like 10 or 15 stacks EACH of tier7 quills and paper from raws, and only once I had gained a couple of levels almost from them alone, would I start to make App4 spells. This worked a treat at Tier6. The XP from a single subcomponent combine might be lower than that of a final, but the sheer number of subcomponent combines for a Sage, although mind-numbingly tedious, meant that the XP one could gain per fixed quantity of raws was quite reasonable.</p><p>If I lose all that XP from subcomponents, and can only make finals, it would mean I had to make a lot more finals for the same XP, which means, I would need a LOT more raws for the same XP. Since I also harvest myself, this means spending a LOT more time harvesting (and the same for every other crafter, or at least, for harvesters spporting those crafters). This might lead to more profiteeting on common raw prices, something I disapprove of greatly.</p><p>So, jury is out for me, I will see how it pans out.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I knew this change would bring you out, while I'm feeling my oats and being daring I've always wanted to ask you What the hell does OOC mean? and why do you use it on EVERY one of your posts?</p><p>Its not annoying, don't get me wrong (makes it easier to find you in a horde of n00bs) I just want to know, oh and good analogy as well in your post.</p><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:13 PM</span></p>

[Sqee]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Priapm wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>There's arguements ALL THE TIME about 'Hey you shouldn't charge this much, it only takes ## of time to make!' Then eventually someone starts charging less and the price gets adjusted.</p><hr></blockquote>Heh, when someone balks at 10g for T5 ebon armor production, I point out that in the time to do all the combines, I could farm 20g-30g easily in PoF solo. Hey, if they want to break it down to time, I'll happily bill the real value of my time.  *LOL*<hr></blockquote><p>I had a guy say that once.. (off topic of OP sorry) .. he wanted a spell.. i told him 10gp plus rare for T6.. he said its one spell.. how bout you just charge me 3gp for the combine..</p><p>*dialauge*</p><p>me: so you want me to charge you 3gp per combine?</p><p>him: ya.. i think your over charging me.. this seems more fair..</p><p>me: ok.. I have to make</p><ol><li>an oil</li><li>regeant</li><li>wash</li><li>dye</li><li>wash</li><li>ink</li><li>resin</li><li>spell...</li></ol><p>me still: that'll be 21gp.. plus the rare.</p><p>him: 10 sounds good.</p><p> </p><p>I dont mind telling people what i have to go through.. especially since my armorer just got to T6 and is not getting orders for gear.. Chain is a Pain!!</p>

[DRech]

It seems to me that those in favor of this change are not crafters anyway; they only want it because it will be easier for them to "powerlevel." As a 60 armorer, I spent almost 50 levels under the old, "slow" way of leveling... and loved it! It is much less rewarding now with as quick as you can level. The only people in favor of it were those that wanted to get to the highest level possible (while flooding the market with crap that doesn't sell for profit) in the shortest amount of time. SOE seems to really like dumbing the game down in a possible attempt to compete with Blizzard. I do not play World of Warcraft for a reason, so please stop trying to make it more like that.I love EQ2, but SOE is doing a great job selling me on Vanguard <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>DRech21 wrote:It seems to me that those in favor of this change are not crafters anyway; they only want it because it will be easier for them to "powerlevel." As a 60 armorer, I spent almost 50 levels under the old, "slow" way of leveling... and loved it! It is much less rewarding now with as quick as you can level. The only people in favor of it were those that wanted to get to the highest level possible (while flooding the market with crap that doesn't sell for profit) in the shortest amount of time.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I did all 60 levels doing it the olde way...  dinged 60 a couple days before they changed TS XP.  And I'm neither for nor against these changes.  They are, however, inevitable, and we'd best not get too excited until there's more information.</p><p> </p><p>On the more information front, Beghn's been discussing this most of the evening over int he TS forums.  I've filtered out some trackers for folks who jsut want his statemtns and not 20 pages of discussion:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496</a></p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Hukklebuk]

Liljna said:<p>I won't even try to predict how this will affect the economy and the community <img height="16" width="16" border="0" src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></p><p>But one thing that worries me is the exp for crafting. Without all the subcombines it seems to me we can only get exp from the final products. So instead of making a high amount of  worts and subcombines, I have to make a very high number of final products? This will indeed flood the market, if every crafter that is levelling will put up 40 leather gloves, 40 hats etc etc.</p><p>Final combines have always given a good amount of exp, and I 'thought' that was due to the amount of subcombines it involved (not sure if this is infact correct). I wonder if the exp from the final combine will now fall or stay the same.</p><p> </p><p>Hmm..will be interesting to see what happens.</p><p>__________________________________________________ _________________</p><p></p><p>The XP worries me as well as the dumping.  As a tailor I welcome the removal of the tedium, however the XP from subs was really what I counted on, typically I'd make 400 washes, 200 each oil and resin and 400 tempers (from the cross-class books), that would usually take me to or beyond x5 in the 10 level spread, refining down pelts and roots to stretches and cloth/yarn would carry me at least another two levels.  By the time I started to make final combines, I'd be working on them from x1 of the level set recipes.  The bonus XP from doing that would carry me beyond x0 into the next level set.</p>Yes it may seem a bit masochistic, but I hate running back and forth.<p>I'm worried about the XP loss from subs, unless it will be figured into finals.  But we'll still be making 40 gloves, 40 boots, 400 bags, 40 robes etc...  The economy will change for crafters accross all levels.  I wonder if anybody knows if imbuing a final is considered a final on test, I have no crafters on test to test imbuing with.</p><p></p><p></p><div></div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div>I'm not saying they are going to do this but if one of the worries is the xp gained from sub combines then maybe they will up the xp for the final products.</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jasonqdavis wrote:<div>I'm not saying they are going to do this but if one of the worries is the xp gained from sub combines then maybe they will up the xp for the final products.</div><hr></blockquote>Yes, Beghn said he'd be sure to check that in Beta.

[Fa]

<p>I think removing subcombines would make crafting "faster" but will drastically reduce the amount of exp you'll get.  You'll no longer get bonus tradeskill exp for making your first resin, temper, wash, oil, stud, spike, thread, yarn, padding, etc.  This is a pretty big problem for all tradeskill classes, but a really big problem for classes like the armorer who have too few recipes as it is.</p><p>Now if they want to make tradeskilling faster they could increase the quantiy count given for subcombines.  essentually letting you create 2 studs at a time, 2 padding at a time, 2 pressed paper at a time.  This unto itself would really give scholars a boots in their ink making chain.</p><p>Really what SHOULD happen is that they adjust the experience given by each recipe AND book.  If you make one pristine of each recipe in a book the total experience from that book should almost give you enough experience to reach the next level of tradeskill book.  Again to make this fair, tradeskill classes like the armor should get more recipes AND their missing books filled.  All armors from a certain book might give the same stats but differnet graphics for visual veriety.  perhaps also include more non-combat roleplaying wear to help fill in their gaps.</p><p>Generally to make my own gear, potions, scrolls, and furniture is rewarding.  Until I have to make 15-150 of the same final item in order to get experience so that I can get to the next book.  It's a boring time sink AND it hurts the market.</p>

[QuaiCon]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Fayn wrote:<p>I think removing subcombines would make crafting "faster" but will drastically reduce the amount of exp you'll get.  You'll no longer get bonus tradeskill exp for making your first resin, temper, wash, oil, stud, spike, thread, yarn, padding, etc.  This is a pretty big problem for all tradeskill classes, but a really big problem for classes like the armorer who have too few recipes as it is.</p><p>Now if they want to make tradeskilling faster they could increase the quantiy count given for subcombines.  essentually letting you create 2 studs at a time, 2 padding at a time, 2 pressed paper at a time.  This unto itself would really give scholars a boots in their ink making chain.</p><p>Really what SHOULD happen is that they adjust the experience given by each recipe AND book.  If you make one pristine of each recipe in a book the total experience from that book should almost give you enough experience to reach the next level of tradeskill book.  Again to make this fair, tradeskill classes like the armor should get more recipes AND their missing books filled.  All armors from a certain book might give the same stats but differnet graphics for visual veriety.  perhaps also include more non-combat roleplaying wear to help fill in their gaps.</p><p>Generally to make my own gear, potions, scrolls, and furniture is rewarding.  Until I have to make 15-150 of the same final item in order to get experience so that I can get to the next book.  It's a boring time sink AND it hurts the market.</p><hr></blockquote>a good solution for the armorer problem would be to add a new  2nd set for each heavy and medium, rare and standard armor per tier. that would help that characters look more different and you could choose between  two sets of armors for stats. and armorer  would have 28 (4*7) recipes for standard armor and 28 recipes for rare armor which would be more in line with numbers of recipes other classes get. but this solution would be too perfect so i fear thats not going to happen anytime soon.</span></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by quaiky on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:21 PM</span></p>

[nobunaga_x]

<div></div><p>Way to dumb down the game.  this will also make it easier for anyone to make what I make.  I am sure I will be making a lot less money after this because there will be twice as much competition.  I think tradeskilling is good as is, you have to put in the time to male the money.  Now everyone is going to make everything because it's going to be easy.</p><p>Anyone here praising this will regret it as they see their profits fall.</p><p>Where can I officially lodge my preotest against this?</p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>nobunaga_x wrote:<div></div><p>Where can I officially lodge my preotest against this?</p><hr></blockquote>You just did.

[nobunaga_x]

<div></div>I like the complexity, it feels like we are going back to EQ1.  Might as well give us portable TS tables too, I'll sit at the TS docks and pump out adept's so I don't have to compete with 150 others on broker.

[Brannwyn]

<div></div>The new changes are VERY welcome from me. I have a sage over on live and I say that making Ink has to be the most unfun tedious POS that had ever been in a game. The bazillion subcombine system was a holdover from EQ1 and I for one am glad to see it gone.As for profits, I think you will see a ton of new crafters initially and your prices will go down. Over time you will see that only you dedicated crafters will be left as people get tired of their "new toy". I have seen this with WoW's crafting economy. There you only see a couple of dedicated crafters making stuff for the server in the highest tier. So this is a good thing. In the long run you will be loving the changes.oh and a grind isn't difficult it's just a bore. Now perhaps they can finally deliver on a crafting system that is exciting as adventuring.Brannwyn<div></div><p>Message Edited by Brannwyn on <span class="date_text">01-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:01 PM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div>I don't heavily craft for a reason. It takes me on average 2-3 times as long to gain a tradeskill level as an adventuring level. And getting that tradeskill level is a lot more boring since I spend most of that time making subcombines and end up with very little to show at  the end of it. My only enticement to craft is so I don't have to pay the often outrageous prices on final crafted goods that I see on the broker. It annoys me to no end to see crafted Adept3 spells for level 10-15 spells going for up to a plat. The only people at that low a level that can afford to spend that much on a spell or CA and want to are crafters raking it in on the brokers. If you adventure regularly you don't want to spend more money than you can earn in the time it takes to get to the level where you get an upgrade to that spell/CA. Yes hardcore crafters will probably take a small hit in their profits, but those of us who focus on adventuring and questing (not exp/loot grinding) will be thankful for the changes and may even start crafting more since it won't be as tedious.</div>

[Suraklin]

<div></div>Hopefully all the sub combines for provisioner is the next to go bye bye. I hate spending 2 hours making a stack of food or drink.

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>This crafting revamp will be going thru no matter what, so the real question is how bug free it will be once it hits Live servers...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As a level 60 armorer that used the old tradeskill exp sysytem to level, I really dont care if they completely change the crafting process by removing the subs and such.  Removing the subs is less steps but unless i missed something we are still countering events with the same 3 lines of counters.  For the people who are complaining they are going to lose profits because of this, if you are truely a commited crafter at your profession, you have already built up a list of friends and customers in the game and if you are <strong><u>reasonably priced on your goods you have nothing to worry about.</u></strong>  However, if you are a price gouger or try to put your customers over the barrel, then you will be affected by this. </div><div> </div><div>Be more worried that they can get all of the recipes working properly, introduce new lower level heavy/chain recipes for the level 1-20 adventure crowd for the class changes, and what will they do for people that have a stock of extracts on them when the crafting change hits.  For example if i have a stack of tier 2-6 extracts can i use them on imbueing just like the raws will be used when this change comes into effect.  I believe that till this hits live, we cannot say this is worthless, but we should remind the devs that they need to make sure that all aspects of the crafting experience work correctly and we are not left in the same boat as the tier 6 raiders were when DOF hit the servers...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>One thing many have not thought about is no matter how 'simple' they make the crafting process, there will be many out there that have no or little interest to do it.  Be it the hardcore raider, the quester, the casual player that wants solo mobs or quick groups and many other players, they are more inlined to buy from broker or commision from crafters than to craft themselves.  Another point also is that many guilds have their own internal crafters that supply the guild with their needs, and i imagine that will still be the same after this update.</div><div> </div><div>So please guys dont overreact till you know for sure it is messed up and dont rely on hearsay and petty bickerings of some of the players.</div>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div>If this goes through you can kiss the tradeskill economy good-bye and without any writs I'd probably just quit tradeskills altogether.<hr></blockquote>I don't understand why you would quit... You must not be a provisioner <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Other TSers do'nt realize that we have it really rough. Even if someone orders a whole armor set, that's still like only ordering 6 Mental Cores. Who orders only 6 drinks? No one, everyone wants 5 stacks (which I can't take orders for). This will make the economy better. You still have to level up to make anything valuable, we don't know how XP will work yet, will we get more per final since there aren't as many pre combs? If more raws are needed, the harvesting market will go up. Real players can keep up with botters more closely at least. I know my guildies will gladly keep buying stacks from me (finally).

[Dentarg_PL]

I've just read about those TS changes, and I'm so confused.I like crafting very much, even there are so many subcomponets. I can easly calm down when crafting, it's not boring for me. I just like it, and it looks for me like real crafting (u can't do watch out of 1 piece of metal, and fuel, u got to do some parts to make it). For provisioner, those changes are great, but for other TS classes they will probably suck. I got my all game money doing TS (as jeweler), I got quite high prices  but NEVER use a bot, or clicking program, I just know value of my time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I can see lot of people using clicking bots to craft sub-components. With such changes they CAN craft final products with bots. This is bad for me, cause it will destroy market quickly. And also making crafting such easy it will cause more people to craft. Yes some prices are insane, but anyone who likes to craft t6 rare just for 5g is insane for me ...I see this changes will make much more crafters, and cheaters using bots to craft. I won't be able get XP so quick as they do, and TS won't do any profits to me. So it will cause me to quit TS. Without TS I think I will quit EQ2 at all. This game is going to be too easy, I don't want to give names, but it seems to be such easy as some other titles on a market. We can see much more 12yo players starts playing EQ2 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I know, SOE just need profits not happines of players, but lots of my friends are talking about switching to Vanguard ...I hope I'm wrong about the situation, but if I'm right those changes are bad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div>There are extrememly smart bot programs out there.  They can make finals, counter events, wait for power.  No change shy of SoE rewriting thier privacy policy to allow them to add spyware to the game will eliminate bots.

[Nimington]

<div></div><p>Well I for one can say I really like this, I'm really not concerned with how long it will take me to get my toons to 70 they will get there eventually.  What I'm happy about is the fact that right now when a level 30 mage asks my 59 Tailor for a set of armor or a 20 Guardian asks my 60 alchy for a set of app IV's I won't have to shudder before replying.  I know people complain about the markets being flooded with App IV's but on my server I constantly hear about the lack for lower level guildies.  I would love to be able to spend under an hour in the TS instance to set that Guard or Mage up for alot easier time instead of either asking them to wait, spending a whole day on the project or buying the precombines.  I don't do a large amount of work outside the guild, generally make rare potions and do some rare combines with my Tailor so I'm probably not as worried about the flooding as some people because I don't see common combines as a source of income.  Anyways just my lil thoughts on the matter.</p><p> </p><p>P.S. Assuming they come up w/ a good way to restructure the world for the provs this will hopefully help our guild provs (including my 57) keep up with every one's orders.  Even with 5 45+ provs we fall behind in a 30ish person guild.</p>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div>This crafting revamp will be going thru no matter what, so the real question is how bug free it will be once it hits Live servers...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As a level 60 armorer that used the old tradeskill exp sysytem to level, I really dont care if they completely change the crafting process by removing the subs and such.  Removing the subs is less steps but unless i missed something we are still countering events with the same 3 lines of counters.  For the people who are complaining they are going to lose profits because of this, if you are truely a commited crafter at your profession, you have already built up a list of friends and customers in the game and if you are <strong><u>reasonably priced on your goods you have nothing to worry about.</u></strong>  However, if you are a price gouger or try to put your customers over the barrel, then you will be affected by this. </div><hr></blockquote>Your list of loyal customers is now lost.  Why would they come to you when there are 80-100 items for each slot on the broker at around cost price?  To go from lvl 48 to 49 I just made a pristine each of the new recipes and a few bags (plus all the combines for these) and some paper to get my wood skill back up to max.  With the new changes I'll be getting no xp from the combines, so I would instead go from 48-49 by making 15-20 of EACH new recipe.  Do you realise how flooded the market will then get?!  At certain levels you only get 1-2 new recipes - that means 30-40 of each item!  And don't count on legendary either.  Rather than sell any rare pelts we find we will be turning them into armor as we will be desperate for xp!I'll be cancelling my subscription if they carry this through.  They are dumbing down this game to pre-school levells.  SOE have NO interest in present customers, loyal players who have grafted since the begging.  They are only interested in attracting younger players from WoW.  The game is now full of 'adventurers' who just grind xp without questing.  The same is now happinging to crafting.</span><div></div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mentla wrote:<span>Your list of loyal customers is now lost.  Why would they come to you when there are 80-100 items for each slot on the broker at around cost price?  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Betcha that doesn't happen.  The Market is not the only place for surplus to go.  they predicted that with the TS XP increase after DoF, too.<p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:32 AM</span></p>

[Sritt]

<div>Has there been word one way or the other on teh xp per final? Is it staying the same or is it being raised to compensate for the subcombines going away. Also you'd think the long time crafters would be happy about the slower xp since they're the ones who complained the loudest when the tradeskill XP was raised and how it'd flood the market with more high-level crafters (which to all us adventurers and non-crafters just sounded like "its my monoply, keep away!&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div>Beghn stated that since Finals have inheirantly more XP than builds he thought it would ballance out (since we're going to be making way more finals).  However, he also promised to test it hard and adjust it if needed to make sure there's not a major slowdown.

[OperationsX]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div>Beghn stated that since Finals have inheirantly more XP than builds he thought it would ballance out (since we're going to be making way more finals).  <strong>However, he also promised to test it hard and adjust it if needed to make sure there's not a major slowdown.</strong><hr></blockquote>Exactly, I don't know what people are smoking these days (must be teh really uber l33t stuff!) but Finals give approximately 3-5x more experience than interims and builds, I don't care how much bonus recipes you've got with subs, making finals with one shot combines will be FASTER experience. Btw I didn't see him say this last part in bold as 1) Devs hardly ever ever say promise and 2) he realizes that it wont be a slowdown of exp and people are just being lame but as you like to do feel free to prove me wrong :smileyhappy:<p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:44 PM</span></p>

[Calthine]

<div></div><p>Reading is fundamental.  I *do* wish people would actually read this stuff.</p><p>from <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496"><font color="#dda600">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-18-06 5:31 PM]</font></a><img alt="" border="0" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/subject_has_url.gif"></p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=8682&query.id=0#M8682">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=8682&query.id=0#M8682</a></p><blockquote><hr>Beghn wrote:<div></div><font color="#ffff00"><p><span>Finished products inherently give a greater amount of experience than refine and interim recipes.  As potions/poisons will take less materials now and be faster to craft as well as being classified as a finished component should make up for this.  I'll run some tests during beta and if it's taking longer than we'd like to make a level because of the removal of sub-combines and there first creation bonus we can adjust numbers based upon that.</span></p></font><hr></blockquote>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Mentla wrote:<span>Your list of loyal customers is now lost.  Why would they come to you when there are 80-100 items for each slot on the broker at around cost price?  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Betcha that doesn't happen.  The Market is not the only place for surplus to go.  they predicted that with the TS XP increase after DoF, too.<p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:32 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Opposire effect surely?  More incentive to make combines when they were giving good xp.  Now people will ONLY make finishes. Was so un-incentivised last night when I got home that I dumped all my ingredients in the bank and went to do some lowbie quests.</span><div></div>

[Kibiki]

<div></div><div>Are all the higher tier writs going in? are there going to be t6 & t7 rare furniture finally?  The fuels costs for the combines are going to be lower based on what the pictures Calthine showed.. esp on skills/spells because i saw the fuel as 5 coals etc, but in the live system atm, each step of the combine (9 steps for sage, alchemist is hard to compare with because one of the components is not combined, it's purchased from shops) doesn't just take up 1 fuel per combine.. making rare inks will cost a lot more fuels than before.. i don't make enough of the lower tiered items (too much to do at t6 as is), but a t6 sage crafted spell will take a total of 13 masala incenses(1 fuel for oils, 1 fuel for washes, 2 fuel for reageants, 2 fuels for dyes, 2 fuels for inks, 2 fuels for quills, 1 fuel for resins (for the quill), 1 fuel for paper, then finally 1 fuel for final spell combine) for a sage.. has anyone per chance see what the changes are going to be for a sage so it's easier to compare with?</div><div> </div><div>Iryna of Najena</div>

[Calthine]

<div></div><div></div><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496" target="_blank"><span class="navbar_text"><strong><font size="2" color="#d3cec4">Just the Facts, Ma'am - or- Beghn speaks on upcoming TS changes [Updated 01-18-06 5:31 PM]</font></strong></span><font color="#c8c1b5"> </font></a></p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=80496" target="_blank"><font color="#c8c1b5"></font></a> </p><p>Please read these posts.  They're all sorted out so you don't have to read through 40 pages of comentary.  All the answers you want are there.</p><p>edit:  also, if you read the very first page of this thread there are screenies of the T1/T2 spell recipes on Test.</p><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:32 AM</span></p>

[Fa]

<div></div>Any chance they will introduce a method for marring the quaility of products?  I know for me, and especially for writs, I'd like to be able to take a pristine whatever and turn it into a shaped.  Such a change would make overage/extra combines on the market attractive, since you would be able to turn your purchases into status.  Just a thought.

[Kibiki]

<div></div><div>Finally went to down load the test EQ2.  My alchemist and carpenter are the only ones i have there.. Don't have time to check carpenter atm.. but it looks like that the recipe book tells you what is required (all the subs) but it's still working as the old way.. I guess they didn't put it all the way in yet?  Because when you click on the table, it's still showing washers/ resins / etc for me.  And none of my existing loams, glasses/vials, inks, extracts changed in name or reverted back to the raw form...</div><div> </div><div>Iryna (60 alch on live, 50 alch on test)</div>

[jasonqdavis]

<div></div>From my understanding they have only done levels 1-20.<blockquote><hr>Kibiki wrote:<div></div><div>Finally went to down load the test EQ2.  My alchemist and carpenter are the only ones i have there.. Don't have time to check carpenter atm.. but it looks like that the recipe book tells you what is required (all the subs) but it's still working as the old way.. I guess they didn't put it all the way in yet?  Because when you click on the table, it's still showing washers/ resins / etc for me.  And none of my existing loams, glasses/vials, inks, extracts changed in name or reverted back to the raw form...</div><div> </div><div>Iryna (60 alch on live, 50 alch on test)</div><hr></blockquote>

[Sritt]

<div>So far the only recipes that have changes are spells, runes, and essenses for t1 and t2. These are new recipes due to the class revamp. Existing recipes will be converted in batches once the new ones (for LU19 and KoS) are complete.</div>

[Dreadwo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Why does everything have to be dumbed down and made easier ?</p><p>Welcome to entropy people!!!</p><p>Good post operations X</p>

[Raveller]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Dreadwolf wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<div></div><p>This is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], all it will do is flood the economy with final products even more so than now, with not having to make subs everyone will be 70 even faster, charge prices (even tho the fuel stays the same) will go down just cuz its so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy to make something now and what just became of tradeskill writs? Non-existant, not that that was any surprise but now you just totally took the profits right out of tradeskills unless you plan on jacking up the raw value.</p><p> </p><p>Stupidest idea ever.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Why does everything have to be dumbed down and made easier ?</p><p>Welcome to entropy people!!!</p><p>Good post operations X</p><hr></blockquote>If the new crafting system is "dumbing down" the game, then I say dumb it down. Then dumb it down some more.Yesterday I checked the broker listed prices for glowing extracts on Lucan. These are <font color="#ccffcc"><b>GLOWING EXTRACTS</b></font>. A T2 item that any scholar can make and the raw material is practially a common item. The current crafting process is only two steps and takes less than a minute to complete. The prices started at <font color="#ffcc00">10 GOLD PIECES</font>. That's just one example of what is wrong with the current crafting system.Whine all you want. The price-gouging so-called crafting community caused this change to happen in the first place! You have no one to blame except yourselves!I've been playing on TEST. The changes to both adventure classes and crafting professions are exactly what this game needs.Don't like it? Go play WoW.</span></div>

[domestic godde]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raveller wrote:<div><span> </div></blockquote><blockquote><div>If the new crafting system is "dumbing down" the game, then I say dumb it down. Then dumb it down some more.Yesterday I checked the broker listed prices for glowing extracts on Lucan. These are <font color="#ccffcc"><b>GLOWING EXTRACTS</b></font>. A T2 item that any scholar can make and the raw material is practially a common item. The current crafting process is only two steps and takes less than a minute to complete. The prices started at <font color="#ffcc00">10 GOLD PIECES</font>. That's just one example of what is wrong with the current crafting system.Whine all you want. The price-gouging so-called crafting community caused this change to happen in the first place! You have no one to blame except yourselves!I've been playing on TEST. The changes to both adventure classes and crafting professions are exactly what this game needs.Don't like it? Go play WoW.</div></span><hr></blockquote><p><strong>The current crafting process is only two steps and takes less than a minute to complete.</strong></p><p>And I repeat your words again. Probably actually takes about 2 min tops, but yeah, that's a reason to throw  the whole current system down the drain. Because something is on the broker and you expect one stop shopping, you will likely pay more for convenience. (Ever bought soda or beer at the gas station instead of going all the way to the grocery store? Storm the gas station after and demand they lower prices and their whole system should change??) )Sure, that's high, but I also have no idea what your server's econmy is like; often times is related to how much raws cost also which can be a viscious circle. That or just some toad(s) is/are out to make substantional profit, either buy it and deal with it or get the raws and contact your own scholar/alch and pay a much more modest fee than that. Just because something is listed on the broker for X amount does not mean it sells for that much either. Things sell for what someone is willing to pay...</p><p>Changing the current crafting system is not going to stop people from listing the highest price they think they can possibly get on the broker. That will never stop. Although, yeah- you may get things a lot cheaper when the market is flooded, although maybe not, according to raw prices. Time will tell, but the current proposed revamp is overkill to kneejerk reactionary thoughts such as above. And a less than one min combine, as above poster states- well, just not seeing the tedium there... </p>

[Fa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raveller wrote:<div><span>The current crafting process is only two steps and takes less than a minute to complete.</span><hr></div></blockquote><p>Truely spoke like someone who hasn't even gotten into their 30's ONCE.  For those of us who have done it, and done it five or six times, I was taken aback by that comment.  If you are really a jeweler I'm DYING to know how it is you make a single rune in two steps taking less than a minute (or two).  Or is the two step process 1) buy all the subcombines 2) craft the final product?  And how many runes did it take you to be able to get to the next book?  Ever try an Armorer where there are no "next books" for several levels?</p><p>Granted I got to where I am "the old way", so I have no idea how many combines it takes today to get a new tradeskill level in those teirs.  But before the experience change I had to craft A LOT.  I had to craft mindlessly for HOURS if I wanted to try to keep up with the casters in my guild.  That's hours out of my life that I wasn't learning anything or having any fun.  If I was only doing it for myself, the process as a whole would not be very rewarding, but the gift of giving kept me going.  That's hours of making ink AND it's various subcomponents AND the OTHER subcomponents for the final products.</p><p>There isn't very much money in tradeskilling either.  I may get the occassional windfall for a good sell, but generally I put my extra spells and gear on my broker for little more than what I paid to craft it.  When checking the market to see how to price an item sometimes I find 1-2 Adept I's for LESS than what it cost me to craft my Apprentice IV's.  That's not counting the other 4 Adept I's within 5 sp of the price people could get by just selling it to the vendor.  Adepts that people got as random drops while they were adventuring (and having fun).  Adepts that they couldn't use and that I must now compete with for pricing the bulk of my goods.Rares are where the money is at.  Sell them raw or craft a legendary.  Harvesting nodes is a better gambling device than giving the goblins your money.  I harvest my own rares.  When I'm lazy and I NEED a rare, I pay gas station prices.</p><p>I'm all for a change in the crafting system.  Anything that let's me spend less time in the tradeskill instance and spend more time focusing on adventure.  I do enjoy the complexity of subcombines, just not the time it takes to progress because of them.</p><blockquote><hr>Fayn wrote:<span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><p>Now if they want to make tradeskilling faster they could increase the quantiy count given for subcombines.  essentually letting you create 2 studs at a time, 2 padding at a time, 2 pressed paper at a time.  This unto itself would really give scholars a boots in their ink making chain.</p><p>Really what SHOULD happen is that they adjust the experience given by each recipe AND book.  </span></p><hr></blockquote>

[Mentla]

Also, extracts come from a rare dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Changing the crafting process wont make rares drop any more frequently.<div></div>

[domestic godde]

<blockquote><hr>Fayn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raveller wrote:<div><span>The current crafting process is only two steps and takes less than a minute to complete.</span><hr></div></blockquote><p>Truely spoke like someone who hasn't even gotten into their 30's ONCE.  For those of us who have done it, and done it five or six times, I was taken aback by that comment.  If you are really a jeweler I'm DYING to know how it is you make a single rune in two steps taking less than a minute (or two).  Or is the two step process 1) buy all the subcombines 2) craft the final product?  And how many runes did it take you to be able to get to the next book?  Ever try an Armorer where there are no "next books" for several levels?</p><p> </p><p>Believe the op was referring to the current extract process, which is 2 steps. Meaning there is no way that for a 2 step process a t2 extract should be 10 gold.  How I read it anyway *shrug* While I do tend to agree with that, many variables play into that as well, so you just never know. But the example given doesn't mean throw the baby out with the bathwater, the current system and the proposed revamp are apples and oranges compared to what gets listed on the broker for how much. Demand the broker system be changed!! (sarcasm there)</p><p>Anyway, I like the current system. Making subs never bothered me. I think the change should be for provs and inks. At least changing different subs around to make would keep me from making the same thing over and over. Will never be any different now, nor will I barely have to even think about it as long as i have piles of raws in my bags...</p></blockquote>

[Rocwen]

<div></div>The thing that some people are missing is with trade skills being faster an easier is everyone will do it. No matter how fair your prices was why should people pay you to make it when they can level up a alt to make it themselves for the cost of fuels. Yes sony is going to do this no matter what we want or say because they think it will make people happy but what they are forgetting is that they are killing a aspect that they said would be part of the game. you could be a adventurer or a trade skiller depending on your play style. Now with this new system the trade skill aspect is dead no one will make a living from it if that is what you found fun in the game.

[Fa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>domestic goddess wrote:<blockquote><p>Believe the op was referring to the current extract process, which is 2 steps. Meaning there is no way that for a 2 step process a t2 extract should be 10 gold.</p></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Doh, I see that connection now.  Sorry I got a little hot headed there.</p><p>Night before the big change I logged on my own tier 4 Jeweler to make some runes.  Well actually, I logged on another level 30 class who needed tradeskill experience and proceeded to make 40 pristine ink.  It was a bear, and after about the first hour I was thinking the removal of subcombines might not be so bad.</p><p>After making the ink I logged on to my jeweler to craft App IV runes for a few people in my guild.  It was an all night process, but between my two characters I netted 6 tradeskill levels.  Reflecting on the effort I put into the process 6 levels seemed a good return for a nights work in teir 4.  If subcombines eventually go away for all teirs will experience be adjusted accordingly?  I earned 4 levels making 120 tempers, 40 resins, 40 ornaments, 40 spikes, 80 wash, 40 oils, 40 reagents, 40 pristine dye, 40 pristine ink, and 40 pristine App IV runes.</p><p>I just want some reassurance that I won't have to make 200 of the same runes to get the amount of experience I did that night.  If expereince is adjusted would that mean I would get 4 levels for teir 4 in 40 combines (approx 40 min)?</p><p>I do like the intricacy of the subcombines, but not the tedium.  I wasn't about to delete any of my current characters, so I upgraded to all-access to try the new tradeskilling paths.  Only dealing with the level 2 book I was given for free, I seemed to get a level on almost every combine.  Although that seemed like a bit much, it DOES look like a simpler introduction to tradeskilling for anyone taking the first step towards becoming an artisan.</p><p>Today I tried some of the other teir 1 books and was surpised to see recipes require Washes, Oils, etc.  I thought the plan was to change all of teirs 1 and 2 to the new subcombine-less system.  Did they change their minds?</p>