Why such a huge nerf for summoners?

[Druzgotek]

<div>"- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them."</div><div> </div><div>Now those dots with graphics of pets will instantly die on most raid mobs and many heroic mobs with ae. I am guessing this will put summoners dps into tier 3 in some cases.</div>

[Yask]

<div></div><p>Yeah, agreed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p> </p>

[XBr]

<div></div><p>I am also pretty annoyed about this. After they nerfed Lich, Lockeye told us that Necro damage was about where they wanted it to be. This change will cost summoners 100-200 DPS on most boss mobs, depending on how often the AOE goes off.</p><p>Dumbfires are basically DoT's with a cute animation, I don't understand why they are singled out for nerfage like this.</p><p>The chnage to make them immune from AOE's was made around LU13 explicitly BECAUSE they were kind of useless on raids otherwise. Now that problem, which was considered unacceptable 3 months ago, is being brought right back.</p><p>I almost feel like this is a kneejerk reaction to the dumbfires now showing up in parsers, and Lockeye going "OMGz!!1! dumbfires do damage! Nerf them, we didn't realize they actually worked".</p><p>At any event, we really need some statement from Lockeye on why he made this change.</p>

[Ekuthh]

<div></div>Agreed.

[Magu]

It's not that big a drop in DPS...<div></div>

[Viohlen]

<div>Actually this doesn't need to reduce your damage much at all.  Just time the AOE's rather than spamming your abilities.  Most named AOE's go of once every 45 +/- 8 seconds.  So just needs some timing and communication/observation.</div>

[Emperad]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:<div>Actually this doesn't need to reduce your damage much at all.  Just time the AOE's rather than spamming your abilities.  Most named AOE's go of once every 45 +/- 8 seconds.  So just needs some timing and communication/observation.</div><hr></blockquote>WOW I think this poster hit it right on the head, They are actually making you learn how to play against a MOB not just click click click click you spells over and over and over.</span></div>

[Gargamel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Emperador wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Viohlence wrote:<div>Actually this doesn't need to reduce your damage much at all.  Just time the AOE's rather than spamming your abilities.  Most named AOE's go of once every 45 +/- 8 seconds.  So just needs some timing and communication/observation.</div><hr></blockquote>WOW I think this poster hit it right on the head, They are actually making you learn how to play against a MOB not just click click click click you spells over and over and over.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry, but I'd say closer to 30s ESPICALLY on the higher raid mobs.  It also takes 15s to cast AND has a 2min timer.Loosing 50%-75% of dumbfire DPS can easily be that much.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Vicio]

<div>Silly question, that doesn't also include friendly AoE's too does that? The true non encounter AoEs? Sorry but I just woke up<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Thakar]

<div></div>It's just rediculous that they're going to change dumbfire pets back like this.  As was posted above, we already had to deal with a large nerf to Lich (and Lich graphic, which used to be my favorite illusion, I now use /hide all the time so I don't have to see the new version of adept 3 Lich), now we're getting nerfed again?  This is crazy.EDIT: I'm already spending more time on World of Warcraft than on EverQuest 2 since hitting level 60, this big of an impact on my DPS in raids makes me less desirable to my raid leader, who may take a Wizard or Warlock over me now because I can't hurt a mob that AE's quite as well.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Thakar on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:58 PM</span></p>

[Druzgotek]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vicious wrote:<div>Silly question, that doesn't also include friendly AoE's too does that? The true non encounter AoEs? Sorry but I just woke up<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>I do not know, but friendly area based aes killed them before, so most likely will once again.

[Magu]

Friendly AEs don't hit group members or their pets, so no, they've never killed swarm pets, and they won't now.<div></div>

[Cuz]

<div>I think this is more of a "less then popular fix" rather than a nerf. I awlays thought that dumb fire pets not getting hit by AoEs as a bug.</div>

[Yindari]

<div>Wasn't a bug, when they made our dots into pets then took away pet midigation it was the fix to keep them from being useless. So now we are back to useless for our best "old" dots</div>

[Elik]

<div></div><p>Plain wrong, Its just a DOT with some graphics. Make all other DOT's break on AOE then, that would be fair. :smileysurprised:</p><p>So please SOE, make all offensive DOT's break on AOE, not just the summoner ones. :smileyindifferent:</p><p> </p><p>Kaieli 60 Necromancer Splitpaw</p>

[Despak]

<div></div>Have you folks actually tested this change, or are you just jumping on the soap boxes with zero actual experience or knowledge?

[Elik]

<div></div><p>Its just the idea really...</p><p>Dumbfires = DOT's, nothing else.</p><p>Why should Summoner DOT's break on AOE?</p>

[Boran]

We have no need to "test" this as this was how they originally worked....badly. As has been stated they are dots with graphics, nothing else so if they want to do anything they can remove the graphics but they better leave the dps alone. They currently get killed by barrage which is fine, no need for the aoe to one shot them. The necro dumbfires have a 45 second recast too so this makes it very difficult to "joust" with them and still maximise our dps.

[Fennir]

Sorry, these are not simply DoTs, and calling them such avoids a very important part of dumbfire pets: they add their damage agro to themselves, not the conjuror, and they don't transfer hate when they get blasted by an AOE.Hateless damage is much better than a DoT, and deserves a downside.  Learn to time an AOE like the above poster said.<div></div>

[Elik]

<div></div><div></div><p>Get your facts straight, they generate hate, they DO transfer acumulated hate to the Summoner on death.</p><p>Kaieli L60 necromancer Splitpaw.</p><p>Spellcheck :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by Elikai on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:48 AM</span></p>

[Fennir]

On countless raids I've never seen a raid mob turn on a conjuror after wiping its pet with an AOE.  Seems like hate is only transferred when a pet actually turns a mob to itself.<div></div>

[Elik]

<div></div>Might be true, havent really thought about that :smileyindifferent:. It also depends on how long the pet have been buiding up hate. If it gets hit just after being cast, not that much hate gets transferred, but if it gets killed after a full duration, thats alot of hate.

[Uanelven]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span>Bad, bad change and no they are <u>not </u>hate free.     People are quite righty expressing concern.   Unless its clarrified how they are supposed to survive then we lost a couple of big spells and therefore a large nerf.   And hey,  lo and behold we are back to the OP's question.On a Necro note, We took the nerf to Lich to  'supposedly' balance an upgrade to DOT damage.   That didn't really happen and this is a further negative change (when we were "where they wanted necro's to be&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  no matter how you look at it.   </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Uanelven on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:55 AM</span></p>

[Boran]

Agree With Uanelven, Sark etc. This is a pretty big change to the way summoners work and to our damage output on raids. All our spells generate hate to us, some more than others. To slash our dps like this when they have previously stated we are where they intended us to be is another knife in the back to join the ones from all the other classes here telling us to suck it up. We won't and we will continue to keep this topic live.

[schrammy]

<div>I'd like to thank the people like uanelven and boran to try and clarify how our spells work to all those other classes here who know it better than us and who are going to tell us to live with it and learn to play our classes and such, BUT its a hopeless battle.</div><div>I previously stated that i expected another nerf for summoners soon and here it is. ( i just hope it will stop with this, but i doubt it)</div><div> </div><div>Also i'd like to thank magus for more BULL**** about things he does not have a clue about.</div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:It's not that big a drop in DPS...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh really? Swarm pets are doing approx 15% of summoners dps. And now imagine. On every AE your MT will lose 15% of max HP. 1500HP+. On every AE your healers will lose 15% of healing. On every AE you will lose 15% of your power regen. Not much you say?</span><div></div>

[Felshades]

necros will still have places in raids.dark / sacrificial heart anyone?<div></div>

[Zave]

<div>omg omg another thing like this</div><div>okay if u do this then make them not have another DOT attributes.</div><div>for example!</div><div>if they are NOT DOT then why healers can CURE them???</div><div>and if they DOT why they must die to AE?</div><div>answer this?</div>

[schrammy]

<div></div><p>I'm not afraid that necro's will have no places on raids anymore.</p><p>We are just depressed that our dots have to be rendered useless on raids. As you might know at 60 we nuke for 100something <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so all we have are our dots</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>For the little nerf happy ignorant posters on here, at least learn how spells work before you type your nonsense about controlling our pets, and timing AOE's</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><p>I dont see the big issue with this change.  If they are pets in any form, they should be taking damage when they get hit by anything.  This is the same way your non dumbfire pet works.</p><p>Wizards and Warlocks get a dumbfire pet each as well.  Protoflame for Wiz, and Netheros for War.  Neither are controllable, have an HP ammount, and have a set duration.  It is the same as the summoner swarm pets. </p><p>This isnt going to affect your DPS total.</p>

[Romka]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><p>I dont see the big issue with this change.  If they are pets in any form, they should be taking damage when they get hit by anything.  This is the same way your non dumbfire pet works.</p><hr></blockquote></span>They are DOTs. Period.DOTs with graphics, that can be cured, dispelled. Same as all your DDs have particle effects - these DOTs have "object" effects.</span><div></div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><span><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><p>I dont see the big issue with this change.  If they are pets in any form, they should be taking damage when they get hit by anything.  This is the same way your non dumbfire pet works.</p><hr></blockquote></span>They are DOTs. Period.DOTs with graphics, that can be cured, dispelled. Same as all your DDs have particle effects - these DOTs have "object" effects.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And?  My Protoflame works the same way.  It is labelled as a DOT in my maintained spell window with a duration timer.  It is as well a DOT with a graphic but can be targetted and killed.   </p><p>If it is a physical manifestation, it should take damage and be affected by anything around it. </p><p>**Edit**</p><p>Just to make sure I had my facts straight, I went back and read some more on dumbfires and checked the necro/conjuror boards for info as well.  And I think the discrepency in the whole thing is a misunderstanding of what a DOT is.  DOT is Damage Over Time and there are two (2) different forms of DOTs. </p><p>1) The type that you stick on a mob that catches them on fire (Cremate, Immolation, etc) or Ice (Piercing Icicles, Freezing Wind, etc).  These are not a physical item.  It is as if you went ahead and poured napalm or greek fire on your enemy's head and waited for it to burn itself out.</p><p>2) The type that manifest themselves in front of a mob who has been targeted for attack (Protoflame, Netheros, Necro pack, Conjuror pack, etc).  These are physically THERE in front of the enemy.  We can see them standing there and beating on the mob.</p><p>You are doing Damage Over Time in both situations, and as such, both have a timer and a maintained spell icon.  Except that type 2 is standing in front of the enemy physically instead of poured on their heads.  It doesnt make sense to believe that a mob would turn around and not see a pack of skinless dogs or biting fish beating them to death.  I know that my Protoflame can go and kick around on a mob and when the mob turns around, they definitely see them.  This works on the same mechanics as the Necro/Conjuror spells in question, and that is why i'm not sure where the complaint is coming from.</p><p>Message Edited by SalBluee on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>I am curious Sal...do you consider your Protoflame as a major portion of your DPS?  As in, one of your top 3 damage spells at 60?</p><p>If the answer is no, you really do not have input in comparing the swarm pets of summoners to those of sorcerors.</p><p>Yours even adds damage when it is killed, ours do not.</p><p>There is a big difference of the importance of swarm pets to a summoners DPS as compared to a sorc.</p>

[Romka]

<div></div><span></span><div>***Please refrain from personal attacks***</div><p>Message Edited by StrollingWolf on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:23 AM</span></p>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>I am curious Sal...do you consider your Protoflame as a major portion of your DPS?  As in, one of your top 3 damage spells at 60?</p><p>If the answer is no, you really do not have input in comparing the swarm pets of summoners to those of sorcerors.</p><p>Yours even adds damage when it is killed, ours do not.</p><p>There is a big difference of the importance of swarm pets to a summoners DPS as compared to a sorc.</p><hr></blockquote>I went back and edited my last post.  I'm just curious to understand how the mechanic of a necro/conj swarm pet DOT differs from my protoflame pet DOT.  I dont see a difference, and hence, shouldnt they be bound under the same rules?

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><blockquote>No point to argue with someone who has no clue <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><hr></blockquote></blockquote>Actually, I do have  a clue, and if you read what I wrote you'd see that there is no difference in a sorceror dumbfire compared to a summoner dumbfire aside from damage ammount.  This is where the questioning comes in.  They are physically there, so why shouldnt they take damage?

[Banditman]

Any Conjuror who has cast Sacrifice on his pet can assure you that hate most certainly does transfer to the Conjuror on pet death.<div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>**Edit**</p><p>Just to make sure I had my facts straight, I went back and read some more on dumbfires and checked the necro/conjuror boards for info as well.  And I think the discrepency in the whole thing is a misunderstanding of what a DOT is.  DOT is Damage Over Time and there are two (2) different forms of DOTs. </p><p>1) The type that you stick on a mob that catches them on fire (Cremate, Immolation, etc) or Ice (Piercing Icicles, Freezing Wind, etc).  These are not a physical item.  It is as if you went ahead and poured napalm or greek fire on your enemy's head and waited for it to burn itself out.</p><p>2) The type that manifest themselves in front of a mob who has been targeted for attack (Protoflame, Netheros, Necro pack, Conjuror pack, etc).  These are physically THERE in front of the enemy.  We can see them standing there and beating on the mob.</p><p>You are doing Damage Over Time in both situations, and as such, both have a timer and a maintained spell icon.  Except that type 2 is standing in front of the enemy physically instead of poured on their heads.  It doesnt make sense to believe that a mob would turn around and not see a pack of skinless dogs or biting fish beating them to death.  I know that my Protoflame can go and kick around on a mob and when the mob turns around, they definitely see them.  This works on the same mechanics as the Necro/Conjuror spells in question, and that is why i'm not sure where the complaint is coming from.</p><p>Message Edited by SalBluee on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You know, just with pure melee damage (using my weapons) - it is also DAMAGE OVER TIME - I am doing X damage over Y time. Funny, isnt it? What you are describing is about PETS.And now - imagine that SOE will change your IC into "object" that when you cast it - it runs to target and will do 5000 damage after 20 seconds. And it can be killed, even by AE during these 20 seconds. Would you like it? No? And thats what SOE did with our main DOT with LU13.</span><div></div>

[Jas]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><blockquote>No point to argue with someone who has no clue <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote></span></blockquote>Actually, I do have  a clue, and if you read what I wrote you'd see that there is no difference in a sorceror dumbfire compared to a summoner dumbfire aside from damage ammount.  This is where the questioning comes in.  They are physically there, so why shouldnt they take damage?<hr></blockquote>This isn't about realism, this is about <i>game balance</i>.  Summoners rely on dumbfires for a lot of their DPS, changing it because "it makes more sense" is only looking at half the equation.  By your reasoning, wizards should take damage from all their spells where fire shoots out of their hands - I mean, if the mob is gonna be burned from the fire, shouldn't the wizard take damage from that fire around their hands?  Do you think Necros and Warlocks should be sick all the time since they cast disease based spells?  I'm sure you don't, because even if it made sense, it wouldn't be <i>balanced.</i> The quizzical part is why this change is happening, because it is a rather large change to summoner DPS in many situations, and there is no explanation as to why it is warranted, what aspect of the game is so badly unbalanced about summoners that they had to take away dumbfire damage?</span></div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span>You know, just with pure melee damage (using my weapons) - it is also DAMAGE OVER TIME - I am doing X damage over Y time. Funny, isnt it? What you are describing is about PETS.And now - imagine that SOE will change your IC into "object" that when you cast it - it runs to target and will do 5000 damage after 20 seconds. And it can be killed, even by AE during these 20 seconds. Would you like it? No? And thats what SOE did with our main DOT with LU13.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Right... yes i know... but you're also rushing to the enemy swinging your sword, correct?  You described it as technically we could all be considered DOT attackers if we go into melee mode.  But then, the mob would see you attacking it, and you would be targetable and killable to them.</p><p>If IC was changed, yeah... i'd be upset, but i'd also see it under the same reasoning I am asking about now, because it would be acting just like my Protoflame.  So I can understand why you are upset but can you really say that even though you dont like the change, a dumbfire pet should not be  targetable even though it is right there?</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><div>If you want to stick to that logic, that is understandable. </div><div> </div><div>However, you need to understand the impact this has on our raiding. </div><div> </div><div>Necros have our pet, one dot, and 2 swarm pets mainly as our DPS></div><div> </div><div>Lifetap and nukes are pethetic for DPS, so we rely on Pet, then dots.</div><div> </div><div>We consider our swarm pets dots wiht a cool graphic for a fun factor.</div><div> </div><div>That should be all it is for. </div><div> </div><div>If the devs feel the need to make these killable, then give us back our dot that was changed to be a swarm pet as some bonus to us.</div><div> </div><div>Now it is a serious nerf to at least necros who rely solely on pets and dots for DPS.</div><div> </div><div>Make it a friggen particle effect for all i care to cater to the "logic", however this is a serious affect on our DPS and I dont think you really understand how much this affects us overall Sal.</div><div> </div><div>But again, no matter what we all banter about, the devs will do what the heck they want.</div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

SalBluee,The swarm pets (DOTs) already take physical damage if they are targetted and attacked by a creature.  The issue is with swarm "pets" dying from Area of Attacks which do not target them.   This is a step backwards.  The reason it was removed before was because these "pets" die instantly from AoE spells due to little to no health.  Not to mention that even group member AoE spells were killing them.  I would be fine with the AoE spells hitting the dumbfire pets IF the dumbfire pets received a substantial increase in their health.  Or perhaps upon the dumbfire's death it inflicts a certain amount of damage as I believe is the case for sorceror dumbfires.Also, this is more of an issue for Summoners than it is for Sorcerors simply because our swarm pets are a main source of our dps. <div></div>

[Hennyo]

Sorcs tier 1, Summoners tier 2, it needed to be done and this is a change that actually MAKES SENSE. nough said.<div></div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:SalBluee,The swarm pets (DOTs) already take physical damage if they are targetted and attacked by a creature.  The issue is with swarm "pets" dying from Area of Attacks which do not target them.   This is a step backwards.  The reason it was removed before was because these "pets" die instantly from AoE spells due to little to no health.  Not to mention that even group member AoE spells were killing them.  I would be fine with the AoE spells hitting the dumbfire pets IF the dumbfire pets received a substantial increase in their health.  Or perhaps upon the dumbfire's death it inflicts a certain amount of damage as I believe is the case for sorceror dumbfires.Also, this is more of an issue for Summoners than it is for Sorcerors simply because our swarm pets are a main source of our dps. <div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Wow... group member AE was hitting your dumbfires?  Thats not right.</div><div> </div><div>Thank you for the clarification.  That explains alot and is basically what I was looking for.  I just couldnt bend the idea of a creature standing there beating on a mob being ignored by AE and attack.</div><div> </div><div>I didnt mean to make anyone angry, and if I did I aplogize.  I guess all I can say now is, lets hope that there is a bit more HP pumped into the swarms.</div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hennyo wrote:Sorcs tier 1, Summoners tier 2, it needed to be done and this is a change that actually MAKES SENSE. nough said.<div></div><hr></blockquote>No... that's not where my line of questioning was coming from.  I'm to the point where i could care less about the DPS tiers, because I think they were a bogus idea anyway.  I dont think anyone should take them seriously.

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Romka wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:It's not that big a drop in DPS...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh really? Swarm pets are doing approx 15% of summoners dps. And now imagine. On every AE your MT will lose 15% of max HP. 1500HP+. On every AE your healers will lose 15% of healing. On every AE you will lose 15% of your power regen. Not much you say?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll say this, your logic is flawed. There not removing the spell, so you wouldn't lose the entire 15%.

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hennyo wrote:Sorcs tier 1, Summoners tier 2, it needed to be done and this is a change that actually MAKES SENSE. nough said.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Update your hands.ini file, and you will be Tier1.</span><div></div>

[Viln]

<div></div><div>Hennyo.</div><div> </div><div>You have any numbers to back this statement up? Or is it just talk?</div><div> </div><div>Edit. forgot to specify who that was to.</div><p>Message Edited by Vilnus on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:44 AM</span></p>

[Ekuthh]

<div></div><p>I agree with SalBluee: </p><p>The issue here is class playability.</p><p>Necros/Conj depend on two things:  Our Pet (singular- because the dumfire pets ARE NOT pets, they're DOTs.) and DOTs.  It's all we have.</p><p>If the pet goes, we go or run like crazy.  We cant take a hit, we cant nuke the way other classes do.  We cant debuff-  we DOT.</p><p>In essence, what this change does is take away a large part of what little damage we can do.</p><p>I'll draw some parallels: </p><p>If you're a tank, this change is like saying:  Well, you can use a shield, but it will only have a mitigation of 5 and will become useless the first time it's struck by an AOE.  Got a stack of them handy?  Oh, btw... you'll have to equip it midfight.</p><p>Or a DPS:  Well, you can use dual wield, but your blade will break after it's hit twice.  You'll have to equip another!</p><p>Or a Healer:  Sure, you can ward, but your ward will break the first time it's hit!  Better spam your hotkeys!</p><p>Look guys, the issue at hand isnt who does the most damage, who is Tier this, who is Tier that.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but our goal is to kill the mob isnt it?  Why all the infighting?  Everyone has gotten so caught up in worry about parsing DPS and who needs to be at the top of the tier ranking that we're overlooking the larger issue:</p><p>Keeping our classes balanced and intact.</p><p>Yes, there are issues with each.  Yes, many classes need serious work.  But the way to fix things is to concentrate on the issues of each class and work them out... not nerf another class to balance things.  That's a slippery slope that leads nowhere.  For each nerf you make, there is an imbalance created somewhere that will have to be addressed by another nerf and so on and so on...</p><p>I've played scouts, tanks and summoners, so I've seen all sides of the equation.  </p><p>The summoner class (post LU13) is the best balanced class I've found yet.  Yes, we can kick butt played properly.  But we cant take a hit for crap and we dont do diddly in direct damage.  That's not our role.</p><p>Why fix what isnt broken?</p><p>Folks, lets stop tearing each other to shreds over bragging rights as to DPS and Tiers and all of us look to our own classes:  Petition, Bug, post, beg and plead to have *our* issues fixed instead of picking each other apart.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Magebane]

<div></div>Well I see one aruement is are dumbfire spells dot's or pets. Well if they are going to be attacked hit by aoe now. Then we should consider them temporary pets, and  they should also be effected by out pet buffs then. That would atleast be a tradeoff.

[Silver Com]

<div></div>Ok I don't know a huge amount about summoners, but I will comment on what i understand.1: Necromancers and Conjurors do share hate with pets and DOT Pets (I'm not going to argue about is it a DOT is it a pet)..i find it Hell to beat a necro or conj hate even with all adept1 or better taunts (one master 1).2: This is 19a and it occures to me that it is reasonably likely they'll do stuff in 19b. They are probably scared of making them to strong in 19a incase people then go "but we want our DOT Pets like they were!" They just admitted that tier 6 armour was to them, Far over powered and they screwed up. They are probably taking the cautious approach.3: I would like to hear for and against arguments that have actually seen how this works in test server. I don't give a hiney if it was awefull in LU13 that was a long time ago and there has been an awefull lot of changes since then.However 2 is just speculation<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silver Comet on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:33 AM</span></p>

[TRapp17]

<div></div>I agree with Silver Comet...  From just what I'm hearing said right now, I don't like this nerf.  However, I'm cautiously optimistic (naieve? LOL!) and will wait until 19b and until I hear how it's actually working on Test before I start to panic.

[Kirotaan]

Over the parsing I did the other day on heroic mobs (I was lvl 59 they were 60) 12% of my dps came purely from lich.  About 7% came from swarm pets total.  On a raid my 7% dps vs mobs that AOE is important when we have ti burn them down quickly to avoid "growing aoes" This change is ill constructed and will cause a drop in all summoner dps when grouped and raiding.   Please do raid testing before this change goes live.<div></div>

[Geothe]

<div></div><p>If sony wants swarm pets to be treated as regular Pets and no longer just animated DOTs.  then fine.</p><p>BUT.</p><p>IF they are doing that, then follow through all the way and let them be affected by all pet and group BUFFS as well.</p><p>Only seems logical.</p>

[Geldo]

<div></div>Can you not just Joust them like any other "melee" now? I am not being sarcastic I am really asking I only have a low level (30) necro so I have no raid experience with pet (in EQ2 anyway hehe).<p>Message Edited by Geldoff on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p>

[SalBlu]

<div>I should check tonight to see if my Protoflame is able to be targeted for buffs both single target and group.  My guess is that SOE is modelling the change off of all the other current dumbfire pets and associating it to necro/conj dumbfires as well.</div>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geldoff wrote:<div></div>Can you not just Joust them like any other "melee" now? I am not being sarcastic I am really asking I only have a low level (30) necro so I have no raid experience with pet (in EQ2 anyway hehe).<p>Message Edited by Geldoff on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No... you cant joust them.  Dumbfires are single mindedly on the mob you target initially when the spell is cast.  They are non controllable.

[Fortai]

<div>It is a huge part of my DPS.  If they can be attacked like other pets, then they should have more health, and allow buffs and heals like other pets.  It's only fair.</div>

[Vorlak]

<div>I wish they would just make up there mind how they are going to do things and not change focus 8x before they get it right.</div>

[Dr. Unk]

<div>So from what I've seen posted dumbfire pets make up 7-15% of your total dps, if this fix cuts dumbfire pets effectiveness by 50% then you are only looking at a 4-7% decrease in total dps.  You guys are still going to be the highest tier 2 dps and passing some tier 1.  Last live update I took a near 20% cut in my dps, sorry it's kinda hard for me to have sympathy for you guys.</div>

[cfteagu]

<div>SalBlue and others who are arguing that it is reasonable for pets in range to take aggro:</div><div> </div><div>Yes, it is reasonable.</div><div> </div><div>HOWEVER, why summoners are mad and think it should be changed back, is LU13 and following history.</div><div> </div><div>1) before LU 13 our best DPS dots were plain ordinary DOTs</div><div>2) with LU13 our best DPS dots were changed to dumbfire pets because the devs thought this would be more fun</div><div>3) Summoners felt this was a nerf</div><div>4) Devs "fixed" this by making the pets immune to AEs</div><div>5) Everyone was happy</div><div>6) Devs announce they are going "unfix" the fix</div><div>7) Summoners are mad again</div><div> </div><div>Either the pets have to be immune to AE (which seems silly), or the DOTs should be changed back to REAL DOTs, or the devs should post "HAHAHAHAH WE NERF U NECROS  LOLOL U GET POWNED!!"</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<div></div><p>Two options for the devs:</p><p>A) Make any dumbfire-type pet for any class immune to aoe damage not directed at them, but do not allow the pets to recive group buffs/heals ect...</p><p>- or -</p><p>B) Make any dumbfire-type pet for any class supseptible to aoe damage even if it isnt  directed at them, but allow any and ALL group beneficial abilities to also effect the pets.</p><p> </p><p>They are ether LINKED to our group, there fore able to be damaged and buffed or debuffed ext like our main pets are, or they are NOT LINKED to our group, and there fore not reciving any help from group or indirect damage for foes.</p><p>Plain and simple, they are either part of the group, or they are a 3rd party visual representation of "over time" abilities, not a mix of both.</p><p>Devs can simply not have them targetable by aoe damage and not reciving group buffs/heals/wards ext, that is simular to double jepordy, as your defining them as part of our group if they recive our encounter's aoe damage, but yet they arnt part of our encounter if they are not also reciving ALL of our group buffs.</p><p> </p><p>If they decide for option B, i suggest a group of 5 summoners becoming close friends with a dirge. If each summoner uses their scout pet and 4 minon pets, that is 25 pets, 6 summoners, and 1 dirge to all melee with the CoB song, and all reciving DPS boost and offensive skillls boost from Dirge's songs :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[salerene]

<div></div><p>not to be mean, because I have a 32 conjuror and most times if I just use my normal pet it would die. Thats if I didnt use my swarming sharks(can't remember name) against ^solo mobs my level and green group mobs, but does this really surprize any conjuror or Necro?</p><p> </p>

[Druzgotek]

<div></div>Soe explanation would be nice, and a free respec, since I picked master 2 for these, and lifetap will be a far better choice now.

[katalmach]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dr. Unk wrote:<div>So from what I've seen posted dumbfire pets make up 7-15% of your total dps, if this fix cuts dumbfire pets effectiveness by 50% then you are only looking at a 4-7% decrease in total dps.  You guys are still going to be the highest tier 2 dps and passing some tier 1.  Last live update I took a near 20% cut in my dps, sorry it's kinda hard for me to have sympathy for you guys.</div><hr></blockquote><p>A cut in DPS is one thing, making our best spells near useless is another. Honestly, I'd rather be able to cast my dogs/snake/zombie dumbfire pets and have them do less damage (although I'd hate to see that happen - after all, nobody likes a decrease in DPS), than to cast them only to see them promptly die. This change is not lowering summoner DPS as much as it is making it pointless for summoners to even use some of their best spells - and that to me, is just depressing.</p>

[Vicio]

<div>Placing Wards, Reactives, what-have-you on dumbfire pets would be a waste. Therefore, dumbfire pet's need to be immune from AoE.</div>

[Jgok]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geldoff wrote:<div></div>Can you not just Joust them like any other "melee" now? I am not being sarcastic I am really asking I only have a low level (30) necro so I have no raid experience with pet (in EQ2 anyway hehe).<p>Message Edited by Geldoff on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No... you cant joust them.  Dumbfires are single mindedly on the mob you target initially when the spell is cast.  They are non controllable.<hr></blockquote><p>In addition to being non-controllable, dumbfire pets have large recast timers (45 secs in the case of the Conjuror's swarm fish)... The only way to 'joust' the AE is to recast the pets after each AE, but that's a TON of hate generated (initial hate for each cast, plus hate generated by the dumbfire damage), and since most AEs that I have seen are on a 30-second timer, we could only really cast every other AE.</p><p>Yes, the dumbfire pets are in fact 'pets' by the strictest definition, but they are non-controllable, single-target-only spells with both a high mana cost (300 or so for Aqueous Swarm, IIRC) and a very long recast timer. Swarm pets are obviously mechanically intended to be cast once per heroic mob at most. Currently on Live, dumbfires are affected by 'directional' AEs (like barrage, which only hits to the front) and ripostes, so they already have the limitation of needing to be positionally cast. Because of this, Summoners are the only Mages who truly need to be concerned about position. (Yes, I know Illusionists, Warlocks, and Wizards have pets/dumbfires, but the portion of dps generated is no comparison.)</p><p>Generally speaking, a Conjuror going into a single-target Heroic fight will position himself, /pet attack, Aqueous Swarm, Pyrotechnic, THEN use DD or damaging dots... Simply because the two dumbfire pets are among our best single-target damage, and they take the longest time to have full effect.</p><p>To those who say 'Have you tested the change?'... I don't need to. I've played a Conjuror since launch, and back when our swarm pets were not immune to AE spells (and the only dumbfire we had was the Aqueous line), I would rarely cast the spell, simply becuase the large mana expenditure was not worth it... The pets would go down with the first AE cast, even on a Heroic mob.</p><p>Conjurors (and I assume Necros too) have very little in the way of direct damage. At level 57, the best nuke I can throw out deals 500 damage to a single target. I still use the level 35 bloodlines dot, just to get in some extra damage. My AE nuke deals 400 damage per target if encounter-based, or 800 per target if I use my true AE. Swarm pets are a large enough portion of my damage that it would truly drop me to Tier 3 DPS if this change goes through without any other... modifications. Wizards who say 'but this affects my protoflame, too'... We don't have Ice Comet. Without any pets, we deal less damage than your average priest in some cases.</p><p>All that being said, I'm watching closely at the Test update notes, hoping to see other changes that would cause this nerf (and it is most definitely a nerf, folks) to make more sense in the larger scheme of things. I've got my fingers crossed, and I think most other Summoners out there do, as well.</p>

[steelbadger]

<div></div><div>My first character was a summoner.  I have since sampled all the other archetypes more than once.  The 'dumbfire pets' are pets.  Hence the 'pets' part.  I had always presumed that they <em>would</em> be damaged by AoE and was surprised and confused when they weren't.  The dumbfire pets are <em>considerably</em> more effective than any other spell line for summoners, why is this so if they are <em>just </em>DoT's?  Personally i have never gained hate from my dumbfire pets when they die, either by being directly attacked or after they expired.</div><div> </div><div>One of our main DoT's has been made less effective in a raid situation.  Think on this, however:  You, the player can stand well back, outside of the AoE range.  Spare a thought for assassins and their ilk.  Assassins rely upon up close and personal attacks for almost all of their attacks, they will most likely be killed by a single AoE from an epic mob.  Scout DPS classes have had to joust AoE's for all of their past, all of their effectiveness is borne from up close attacks.  15% of ours (at worst) will be lost.  Now this is only epic encounters mark you, anything else does no have the AoE power to kill the scouts or dumbfires.  So, by the reasoning that we are going to lose 15% of our DPS, against epic mobs.  Scouts, tier <em>one</em> DPS classes, lose 50% (or more, or less if they are competant at avoiding AoE) of their DPS.  Scouts have had to joust epic AoE since the beginning of time.  And they are tier one.  They had to joust it or they would <em>die</em>.  We, a tier two DPS class with a lot more utility, have never had to joust AoE, and more to the point; we will only lose some worthless pets if we are unsuccessfull with our timing on the AoE.  Not our lives.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Try to think of others.  Try to think of the overall picture.  Don't think of it as; 'here and now our DPS is worse than it was then and there'.  Think of it in terms of the game as a whole.</div><div> </div><div>I try to be reasonable :smileyhappy:</div>

[Gargamel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geldoff wrote:<div></div>Can you not just Joust them like any other "melee" now? I am not being sarcastic I am really asking I only have a low level (30) necro so I have no raid experience with pet (in EQ2 anyway hehe).<p>Message Edited by Geldoff on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>No, you can't.</p><p>Due to the timers (30-40s on some heroic/named/raid) mob's AoE timers... the cast timer fo 15s and the recast of 2min... you are guaranteed to loose 50% of your dumbfire DPS even if you joust perfectly, but more likely players will lose cloer to 70-75% of current dumbfire DPS agains raid mobs espoically (this is a nerf to Necro's main DoT specifically against end-game (lvl60) and raid type mobs)</p><p> </p>

[Gargamel]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dr. Unk wrote:<div>So from what I've seen posted dumbfire pets make up 7-15% of your total dps, if this fix cuts dumbfire pets effectiveness by 50% then you are only looking at a 4-7% decrease in total dps.  You guys are still going to be the highest tier 2 dps and passing some tier 1.  Last live update I took a near 20% cut in my dps, sorry it's kinda hard for me to have sympathy for you guys.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Wrong... my dumbfire pets (lvl 59 with m2 dogs) is closer to 15-18, and teh 50% reduction is if you PERFECTLY joust the pets (including predicting the MOB AoE cast by 15s so you can start casting to finish just after he casts, taking FULL advantage of the 30s window).</p><p>So MINIMUM 7-9% reduction in DPS, probably be more like 9-12% since I'll end up at 70% reduced dumbfire DPS.</p><p>Don't forget we just took a 15% reductio in DPS last patch on Lich as well.</p><p>Not to mention is SPECIFICALLY targetst raid mobs which were SUPPOSED to be Necro's "master of power" specialty.</p><p>I'm sick of people cherrypicking the IDEAL fight for a class... quoting its DPS or Tier ranking in that case, and making some CLOWN argument.</p><p>Stop it already!</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Viln]

<div></div><div><div>s<a target="top" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=227556"><span>teelbadger</span></a>  wrote:<em></em></div><div><em>One of our main DoT's has been made less effective in a raid situation.  Think on this, however:  You, the player can stand well back, outside of the AoE range.  Spare a thought for assassins and their ilk.  Assassins rely upon up close and personal attacks for almost all of their attacks, they will most likely be killed by a single AoE from an epic mob.  Scout DPS classes have had to joust AoE's for all of their past, all of their effectiveness is borne from up close attacks.  15% of ours (at worst) will be lost.  Now this is only epic encounters mark you, anything else does no have the AoE power to kill the scouts or dumbfires.  So, by the reasoning that we are going to lose 15% of our DPS, against epic mobs.  Scouts, tier one DPS classes, lose 50% (or more, or less if they are competant at avoiding AoE) of their DPS.  Scouts have had to joust epic AoE since the beginning of time.  And they are tier one.  They had to joust it or they would die.  We, a tier two DPS class with a lot more utility, have never had to joust AoE, and more to the point; we will only lose some worthless pets if we are unsuccessfull with our timing on the AoE.  Not our lives.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>Of course we can stand outside of AE range: we're NOT scouts. Plain and simple. We're mages, and no other mage class stands to lose a substantial amount of DPS because of this change. Scouts can wear chain, can still do sizeable damage when oop, have better avoidance then us. So don't bother with the comparisons. And we can't joust with them either.  Are you even high enough of a level to use the rats yet? You should know they only target one mob, and disappear as soon as it dies. No moving them around.</div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>Try to think of others.  Try to think of the overall picture.  Don't think of it as; 'here and now our DPS is worse than it was then and there'.  Think of it in terms of the game as a whole.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>I try to be reasonable <img height="16" border="0" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>The problem is that we were fine before, there was no need to adjust it. A DoT is a DoT, no matter what the graphics look like. Sorcerors DoT's don't get knocked off because of a mobs AoE, so why should ours? After this, we'll have the Deathly Coil line, and that will be the only DoT we have, that won't get eliminated when a mob decides to cast an AoE.</div></div>

[dom4]

I know it seems like a huge nerf for summoners, but it does make sense.  I mean, if a giant ball of ice falls out of the sky and crushes everyone around a mob, it should crush EVERYONE around the mob.  I don't see why our dumbfire pets are exempt.  They are pets after all.  And there's quite a few AoE attacks that only hit in front of a mob and can be avoided completely by summoning behind the mob.  I think we'll be just fine.  Although to make it fair, it would be nice if we could heal them since they're being placed in more danger now.<div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>dom420 wrote:I know it seems like a huge nerf for summoners, but it does make <font color="#66ffcc">sense</font>.  I mean, if a giant ball of ice falls out of the sky and crushes everyone around a mob, it should crush EVERYONE around the mob.  I don't see why our dumbfire pets are exempt.  They are pets after all.  And there's quite a few AoE attacks that only hit in front of a mob and can be avoided completely by summoning behind the mob.  I think we'll be just fine.  Although to make it fair, it would be nice if we could heal them since they're being placed in more danger now.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Ha...haha.....hahahahahahahahahahahaha.......</p><p>oh excuse me, need another ha just to top it off...</p><p>Sense is not a thing to think about when considering changes to class abilities.</p><p>It would make "sence" for a master of death to beable to kill anything in the game with a mear whim.</p><p>It would make "sence" for a Mystic to beable to call forth a army of their ancesters to attack a foe endlessly, since he can call them back from the "Grey Field" instantly.</p><p>It would make "sence" for a Conjuror to beable to summon your group members from any area on Norrath, i mean they can summon beings from other Planes but not a few meters away in another regon?</p><p> </p><p>Plain and simple, they cant be targetable for AOE damage ment for the group/raid w/out being able to recive the group/raid's assistance from buffs/heals ect.</p><p>They are, to put it frankly, they can not be ' with us for the punishment, but not the boon ' and the devs are going to have to choose one or the other.</p><p>Making them immune to aoe damage would actually lower the potiential dps the pets could deal, because if they make them targetable for aoe damage then they are able to recive buffs, more specifically Dirge offensive buffs, which could give them a extremely amazing dps rating. CoB, DPS increase, normal Proc spell, among other buffs.</p>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<p>Making them immune to aoe damage would actually lower the potiential dps the pets could deal, because if they make them targetable for aoe damage then they are able to recive buffs, more specifically Dirge offensive buffs, which could give them a extremely amazing dps rating. CoB, DPS increase, normal Proc spell, among other buffs.</p><hr></blockquote>Imagine, Consumption casted on 7 (regular, charmed, zombie, snake, 3 dogs) pets... =)</span><div></div>

[steelbadger]

<div></div><em></em><blockquote><hr>Vilnus wrote:<div></div><div><div>s<a target="top" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=227556"><span>teelbadger</span></a>  wrote:<em></em></div><div><em>One of our main DoT's has been made less effective in a raid situation.  Think on this, however:  You, the player can stand well back, outside of the AoE range.  Spare a thought for assassins and their ilk.  Assassins rely upon up close and personal attacks for almost all of their attacks, they will most likely be killed by a single AoE from an epic mob.  Scout DPS classes have had to joust AoE's for all of their past, all of their effectiveness is borne from up close attacks.  15% of ours (at worst) will be lost.  Now this is only epic encounters mark you, anything else does no have the AoE power to kill the scouts or dumbfires.  So, by the reasoning that we are going to lose 15% of our DPS, against epic mobs.  Scouts, tier one DPS classes, lose 50% (or more, or less if they are competant at avoiding AoE) of their DPS.  Scouts have had to joust epic AoE since the beginning of time.  And they are tier one.  They had to joust it or they would die.  We, a tier two DPS class with a lot more utility, have never had to joust AoE, and more to the point; we will only lose some worthless pets if we are unsuccessfull with our timing on the AoE.  Not our lives.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>Of course we can stand outside of AE range: we're NOT scouts. Plain and simple. We're mages, and no other mage class stands to lose a substantial amount of DPS because of this change. Scouts can wear chain, can still do sizeable damage when oop, have better avoidance then us. So don't bother with the comparisons. And we can't joust with them either.  Are you even high enough of a level to use the rats yet? You should know they only target one mob, and disappear as soon as it dies. No moving them around.</div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>Try to think of others.  Try to think of the overall picture.  Don't think of it as; 'here and now our DPS is worse than it was then and there'.  Think of it in terms of the game as a whole.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>I try to be reasonable <img height="16" border="0" width="16" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif"></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>The problem is that we were fine before, there was no need to adjust it. A DoT is a DoT, no matter what the graphics look like. Sorcerors DoT's don't get knocked off because of a mobs AoE, so why should ours? After this, we'll have the Deathly Coil line, and that will be the only DoT we have, that won't get eliminated when a mob decides to cast an AoE.</div></div><hr></blockquote><p>What i mean.  We now have to joust AoEs that is, apparently, a huge nerf.  However once again you are thinking of now and then.  Not of overall balance.  I for one will be happy when this change is implemented in the main servers.  It will finally bring some cranial activity to the role of my conjuror (who, yes, does have the aqeous guys).</p><p>So if we stand to lose so much from one of our spell lines being susceptable to breaking on AoE, why is it that melee classes that <em>do not </em>have the armour and hitpoints have to joust AoE (it is pretty much do or die) to get off all their main attacks.  Maybe assassins should be made immune to AoE as well because we all know how devestating it is for them when they get hit by an epic AoE.  They lose <em>all</em> their dps.  not just half of 15%.</p><p>You ask me to stop with class comparisons but game balance requires that you think of the abilities of one class in comparison to other classes.  Not that you think of how much damage you can do now vs how much damage you could do then.</p><p>We summoners have always had an impressive mix of utility, damage dealing potential and soloing ability.  We are supposed to be tier 2 dps yet quite often we can out damage the teir 1 dps classes.  Simply because we are near immune to mob attacks in almost all situations.  We are simply unattackable by mobs.  I'm not happy to see a 'nerf' but i think that this nerf is a reasonable nerf.  Had it been something along the lines of 'summoners are too good, we have removed their pets' then that would be unreasonable but as it is we are simply losing maybe 8-10% DPS.  even less if you time the mob AoEs and start your cast before the AoE has gone off to get a full 30 seconds of little nippers biting at the mobs heels.</p>

[Viln]

<div></div><p>steelbadger wrote:</p><p><em>What i mean.  We now have to joust AoEs that is, apparently, a huge nerf.  However once again you are thinking of now and then.  Not of overall balance.  I for one will be happy when this change is implemented in the main servers.  It will finally bring some cranial activity to the role of my conjuror (who, yes, does have the aqeous guys).</em></p><p>Cranial activity? No. Dumb luck? Yes. Choosing when to push a button is hardly what I would call an mentally stimulating experience. And what the heck are you supposed to compare it to? Give us a reason NOT to compare it to how it was, rather than making fool statements. (BTW, JOUSTING means running in, attacking, and running back out. The pets don't do that. So you don't joust with them. Should be easy enough to understand.)</p><p><em>So if we stand to lose so much from one of our spell lines being susceptable to breaking on AoE, why is it that melee classes that do not have the armour and hitpoints have to joust AoE (it is pretty much do or die) to get off all their main attacks.  Maybe assassins should be made immune to AoE as well because we all know how devestating it is for them when they get hit by an epic AoE.  They lose all their dps.  not just half of 15%.</em></p><p>Um, I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. Scout classes can wear <em>medium</em> armor, which is two levels above ours. Hardly what I would call no armor. My swashbuckler can sustain quite the beating, MUCH more so than my necro. It's not even debatable. And you are missing the point. A scout CAN move out of range. Our DoT's with pet graphics CANNOT. It's not even comparable.</p><p><em>You ask me to stop with class comparisons but game balance requires that you think of the abilities of one class in comparison to other classes.  Not that you think of how much damage you can do now vs how much damage you could do then.</em></p><p>When the devs said we were where they wanted us to be, then yes, complaints are in order when they try to move us down. Especially because of other classes who don't really know what they're talking about complain. When other classes complain that we do too much damage, aren't they doing the SAME thing you're telling us not to do? Try to be more logical.</p><p><em>We summoners have always had an impressive mix of utility, damage dealing potential and soloing ability.  We are supposed to be tier 2 dps yet quite often we can out damage the teir 1 dps classes.  Simply because we are near immune to mob attacks in almost all situations.  We are simply unattackable by mobs.  I'm not happy to see a 'nerf' but i think that this nerf is a reasonable nerf.  </em>Yeah, show me where a necro outdamages a warlock. It only happens on long fights, when they go oop. My 24warlock had a bigger nuke than my 49 necro. How is that for even? We make up for it by sustained damage. Take away a large portion of the sustained, and what do you have? Nothing. And what do you mean by <em>unattackable</em>? Because other mage classes are <em>unattackable </em>as well, if they stand out of the AoE range, so that makes no sense.</p><p><em>Had it been something along the lines of 'summoners are too good, we have removed their pets' then that would be unreasonable but as it is we are simply losing maybe 8-10% DPS.  even less if you time the mob AoEs and start your cast before the AoE has gone off to get a full 30 seconds of little nippers biting at the mobs heels.</em></p><p>Don't make analogies. They don't work. Saying that it better to lose our DoT effectiveness rather than our pets is inane.</p>

[Anlari]

<div></div><p>Well, I'm not sure how I feel about this change yet.  I knew they were going to nerf our damage because we do a tad more then they had wanted us to do in long drawn out fights (raids).  I had posted in another thread that I was unsure how they would fix this problem without killing our small group and solo ability, and well I guess this is how.  This change will mostly affectour DPS in raids and have a small impact on our solo and small groups.  I'm not happy about being nerfed for sure, but I guess I am glad they decided on this route for the nerf rather then hitting us across the board and killing the class in all areas.</p><p>To the poster that made the post about pets either being in the group or not, I think that is a fine way to look at it.  Right now, our dumbfires are in this weird catagory that gives them all the downsides of being in our group, but none of the benefits.  Either they should be their own group and have to be targeted seperatly or in our group and get our buffs.  Not that this will get rid of the AOE problem.  I'm guessing most of the raid bosses have non-encounter AOEs that could still hit the extra group(s).</p>

[Romka]

Sad that no Dev found 4 minutes to reply here. Probably too busy replying on posts what kind of pie they like.<div></div>

[steelbadger]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Vilnus wrote:<div></div><p>steelbadger wrote:</p><p><em>What i mean.  We now have to joust AoEs that is, apparently, a huge nerf.  However once again you are thinking of now and then.  Not of overall balance.  I for one will be happy when this change is implemented in the main servers.  It will finally bring some cranial activity to the role of my conjuror (who, yes, does have the aqeous guys).</em></p><p>Cranial activity? No. Dumb luck? Yes. Choosing when to push a button is hardly what I would call an mentally stimulating experience. And what the heck are you supposed to compare it to? Give us a reason NOT to compare it to how it was, rather than making fool statements. (BTW, JOUSTING means running in, attacking, and running back out. The pets don't do that. So you don't joust with them. Should be easy enough to understand.)</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Unfortunately, the time between AoEs is not that hard to judge.  If you are at the stage of relying on dumb luck to get your spells off then i think that you will benefit from the learning experience that will come with this new update.  Scouts have learned to time the AoEs run in after one and run out before the next.  We can time them and cast our pets just after the AoE goes off.  We can even <em>start</em> to cast our pets before the AoE goes off.</font></p><p><em>So if we stand to lose so much from one of our spell lines being susceptable to breaking on AoE, why is it that melee classes that do not have the armour and hitpoints have to joust AoE (it is pretty much do or die) to get off all their main attacks.  Maybe assassins should be made immune to AoE as well because we all know how devestating it is for them when they get hit by an epic AoE.  They lose all their dps.  not just half of 15%.</em></p><p>Um, I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. Scout classes can wear <em>medium</em> armor, which is two levels above ours. Hardly what I would call no armor. My swashbuckler can sustain quite the beating, MUCH more so than my necro. It's not even debatable. And you are missing the point. A scout CAN move out of range. Our DoT's with pet graphics CANNOT. It's not even comparable.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">My point is that scouts lose quite a bit of effectivness when fighting Epics.  They lose more effectivness than you do.  No matter their armour i know that my assassin has trouble taking a hit from an AoE from someone like Varsoon the Undying.  So i need to be will back for the AoE's.  In that time i lose almost all of my damage.  My conjuror only loses the effects of one spell.</font></p><p><em>You ask me to stop with class comparisons but game balance requires that you think of the abilities of one class in comparison to other classes.  Not that you think of how much damage you can do now vs how much damage you could do then.</em></p><p>When the devs said we were where they wanted us to be, then yes, complaints are in order when they try to move us down. Especially because of other classes who don't really know what they're talking about complain. When other classes complain that we do too much damage, aren't they doing the SAME thing you're telling us not to do? Try to be more logical.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I am being logical.  I ask the other people who make here and now-then and there complaints to try and think of the game as a whole as well.  People without experience of both classes in the comparison should ensure that their facts are correct.  It is not acceptable from anyone, i am not giving summoners any special treatment.</font></p><p><em>We summoners have always had an impressive mix of utility, damage dealing potential and soloing ability.  We are supposed to be tier 2 dps yet quite often we can out damage the teir 1 dps classes.  Simply because we are near immune to mob attacks in almost all situations.  We are simply unattackable by mobs.  I'm not happy to see a 'nerf' but i think that this nerf is a reasonable nerf.  </em>Yeah, show me where a necro outdamages a warlock. It only happens on long fights, when they go oop. My 24warlock had a bigger nuke than my 49 necro. How is that for even? We make up for it by sustained damage. Take away a large portion of the sustained, and what do you have? Nothing. And what do you mean by <em>unattackable</em>? Because other mage classes are <em>unattackable </em>as well, if they stand out of the AoE range, so that makes no sense.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I know.  I was always dissapointed with the direct damage of my Conjuror.  It is barely over 100.  Many of my other characters could out do that before they hit lvl 20.  However.  Conjurors are intended to be teir 2 dps, with our mage pet.  Saying that it does less DD damage than a Warlock, a teir 1 class, is stating it as it should be.  I always felt a lot less effective as my conjuror than i actually was.  We are like a dps class but we, the player, only has control over half their character.</font></p><p><em>Had it been something along the lines of 'summoners are too good, we have removed their pets' then that would be unreasonable but as it is we are simply losing maybe 8-10% DPS.  even less if you time the mob AoEs and start your cast before the AoE has gone off to get a full 30 seconds of little nippers biting at the mobs heels.</em></p><p>Don't make analogies. They don't work. Saying that it better to lose our DoT effectiveness rather than our pets is inane.</p><font color="#ff0000">I was only pointing out that a removal of pets altogether would have been a huge nerf.  This is merely a rebalance.  Something that you have to get used to when playing an online game.</font><hr></blockquote>

[Squall Leonhea]

<div></div><div></div>1. Point: I think you are partly underestimating the damage of swarm pets. In my damage logs they are around 30% of my damage, even up to 40%. And there are enemies with 2x 30 s AoEs, even if timed perfectly it would cost more than 50% of our swarm pets dps.2. Point: We are already effected by AoEs because of our main pet. The mage pet can cast from outside, but after some casts it always tries to go near the enemy.So this is a big nerf.If it really comes (I hope not) SOE should at least lower the recast. AoEs often have around 30 s recast, maybe the swarm pets should have this too than.--------------Jiraiya lvl 60 ConjurerValor<div></div><p>Message Edited by Squall Leonheart on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:39 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Squall Leonheart on <span class="date_text">01-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:39 AM</span></p>

[Viln]

<div><font color="#ff0000">Unfortunately, the time between AoEs is not that hard to judge.  If you are at the stage of relying on dumb luck to get your spells off then i think that you will benefit from the learning experience that will come with this new update.  Scouts have learned to time the AoEs run in after one and run out before the next.  We can time them and cast our pets just after the AoE goes off.  We can even <em>start</em> to cast our pets before the AoE goes off.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>Sounds like needless hassle, with no explanation as to why.</div><div><p><font color="#ff0000">My point is that scouts lose quite a bit of effectivness when fighting Epics.  They lose more effectivness than you do.  No matter their armour i know that my assassin has trouble taking a hit from an AoE from someone like Varsoon the Undying.  So i need to be will back for the AoE's.  In that time i lose almost all of my damage.  My conjuror only loses the effects of one spell.</font></p><p>Varsoon is heroic, not epic. I never had any problem with an AoE with my 35 swashbuckler. And you back away, and let your backstabs refresh, losing a few autoattacks, nothing hard.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I am being logical.  I ask the other people who make here and now-then and there complaints to try and think of the game as a whole as well.  People without experience of both classes in the comparison should ensure that their facts are correct.  It is not acceptable from anyone, i am not giving summoners any special treatment.</font></p><p>That's not logical: everything in here has to be compared to something else. It's how it works. I didn't see a reason to change it, and I have experience with both classes you are talking about. Changes with no reason, or explanation are not needed.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I know.  I was always dissapointed with the direct damage of my Conjuror.  It is barely over 100.  Many of my other characters could out do that before they hit lvl 20.  However.  Conjurors are intended to be teir 2 dps, with our mage pet.  Saying that it does less DD damage than a Warlock, a teir 1 class, is stating it as it should be.  I always felt a lot less effective as my conjuror than i actually was.  We are like a dps class but we, the player, only has control over half their character.</font></p><p>So why even bring a summoner along? For their duration. No other reason. Sorcerors, rogues and ranger/assassins all do more damage, no point in bringing us along. If our DPS drops by large %age's, then why not bring a warlock instead? And the warlock was 20+ levels behind, in case you missed that. A rebalance is one thing, but it wasn't unbalanced to begin with.</p></div>

[Xebars]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>steelbadger wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><span> </span><p><font color="#ff0000">My point is that scouts lose quite a bit of effectivness when fighting Epics.  They lose more effectivness than you do.  No matter their armour i know that my assassin has trouble taking a hit from an AoE from someone like Varsoon the Undying.  So i need to be will back for the AoE's.  In that time i lose almost all of my damage.  My conjuror only loses the effects of one spell.</font></p> <font color="#ff0000"></font><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Any scout that cannot live through at LEAST one, if not two, if not just plain resist an Epic's AoE is not properly equipped.  Junk armor on the broker, or some basic quests, can get ANY resist to ANY attack over 4000 unbuffed, with a reasonable time/money investment.  If an assassin is having his DPS seriously limited by pulsing AoE, it's not game mechanics, it's that they have not taken the time to prepare for that fight.  You'll notice most raid guilds load up their groups with SCOUTS...it's not because their DPS is so "limited".So...can I buy resist gear for my Rotting Packhounds and Diseased Servant now?</span><div></div>