What's the rational for this?

[armus5]

<div>- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them.</div><div>As a necro, I'm concerned because both of our long-term dots are now in dumb-fire form (won't mention how rediculous the ghastly zombie is, not gonna do it, nope) Isn't it enough that the ghastly line has been reduced to a silly looking zombie, but now it's going to be killed on a regular basis? And the dogs are flat weak. Heck, you made them weaker even not too long ago. This (here it comes) nerf will make these spells vertually useless against named or better opponents that AOE. The most significant impact of course will be against raid mobs - which by the way, occasionally kill some dogs with their AOE despite the current settings.</div><div>The only thing I can figure is this is a response to either too much dps from dumbfires (yeah those aquious hunters are killers!) or you can't make the no-damage thing work so you're going back to the old system (very much like what you did with necro rezing). If this is due to not being able to fix it, I would hope at least you would make the dumbfires stronger. Of course they'd need to be about 2/3s as strong as the tank pets to survive one aoe from a raid mob. Our dumbfires have long recasts and dying each time to an aoe means they will see very little use (which is why you made this change in the first place).</div>

[Zasarix]

<div></div><div></div><div>/laugh</div><p> </p><p>I think the necro is having withdrawls.   Armus, you had to see this intervention coming, we're all here for your, we can get you clean again, just relax.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>EDIT:   Learn to time your Dumbfires and pay attention in raids! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Zasarix on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:59 AM</span></p>

[armus5]

<div>when an aoe comes every 30 seconds and dumbfires take 15 seconds to recycle and 2 seconds to cast, that's a problem. Even if you skip to the next aoe, you're losing half the spell's effectiveness - or dps. Timing will not solve the issue which is why the change was originally implimented.</div>

[GurgGuardianLord]

<div>Having 5 toons above 50 my necro is extremly over powered imho. So i'm not bothered by this.</div><div> </div><div>My necro can solo stuff at 52 that my 56 alt and 50 alt couldn't duo together if they had automatic weapons.</div>

[Scyros]

<div>Yes at 52 necro's are a bit overpowered.  But from 52 to 60 we get almost 0 increase in our damage.  So at 60 as a necro I can tell you we are about right.  I see Wardens solo heroics 2 lvls higher than them all the time.  If I tried that I would be dead.  This change doesn't really effect our solo ability or grp DPS however.  This is coming down hard almost totally on our raiding DPS.  On raids our caster and assassin pet get owned by AE's so they are almost useless.  Tank pet can take a few hits but he does very low DPS.  But I always knew I could rely on my dumbfire pets to put out some ok numbers.  Well not if this goes live.  Most T6 raid mobs drop AE's on a 30 sec timers +/- 5 sec.  Like OP said, that makes these pets useless.  I don't know how one could say we do too much DPS either.  Look at how much DPS monks do.  Are they not supposed to be in the lower tiers?  Then why are they posting 500+ DPS.  Same goes for Zerkers.  True, necro/conj does a bit more on average than that.  But not much and in some cases less.  Everyone will have there opinion about this change, but you can't deny the facts.  With raid mobs dumbfire pets will now be useless.  Don't we have enough useless spells on raids.  I mean, stuns, stifles, root, snares, charms, mez, all useless.  Why can't SoE spend some time thinking of other ways to make a raid challenging other than gimping the players vs epics, making epics do stupid amounts of dmg, and epics having unrealistic amounts of health.  Look at the kal'dal instance.  That guys is hard as hell and only because of the way the encounter was created.  It requires your raid force to be smart and work together to win.  The encounter is hard by virtue of the "MOB"s ability and not the players lack thereof as a result of some bogus spell restriction.  Why even have spells that don't work on epics or are made useless like dumbfire pets?  Just take those spell out of the game.  It's hard enough for some people to learn their ever changing class and how to play it.  Then when the get to 60 and want to raid, they have to relearn everything.  Only because SoE would rather limit player usefulness on epics rather than take the time and imagination to create truly challenging and exciting epic encounters. </div>

[Magu]

Why did you post this twice in the same forum?<div></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>Swarm pets are simply a virtual image for a dot.</p><p>They do not tank, and they only last on one mob in the encounter.</p><p>Why do we have to worry about a mobs AOE stripping our dots from them?</p><p>If you must, take away the graphics and call them a dot, but to have an AOE wipe swarm pets, there goes a large amount of DPS right out the window for a few classes, not just summoners.</p><p>Pathetic change. </p><p>If you think they do too much damage, then lower their damage, but to destroy them everytime a mob AOE's will make them fairly useless on raids.</p><p>Oh well, we lived through stupid changes and lack of attention in the past, we will survive this bonehead move too.</p>

[Cecil_Stri]

<div>You guys do more damage then most classes in game.. how can you complain about something that is just logical as this?</div>

[Gertack_v2]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div>Yes at 52 necro's are a bit overpowered.  But from 52 to 60 we get almost 0 increase in our damage.  So at 60 as a necro I can tell you we are about right.  I see Wardens solo heroics 2 lvls higher than them all the time.  If I tried that I would be dead.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm a level 60 Fury with all Adept3/Master1 spells and mostly fabled gear and I get owned by anything blue heroic.  If a Warden does it at all, they're relying on their root, moreso than any other class feature. I'd probably get owned by high green heroic too, but I haven't exactly tested my limit.Though I can tell you how Conjurors and Coercers solo Scornfeather Roost, given sufficient gear and spells.  (Our necro has never tried, to my knowledge.)Gertack60 Fury, 60 JewelerBefallen - Fallen</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gertack on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:43 PM</span></p>

[Al]

<div>necros have no problem doing 1000dps in the raid setting and are T1 dps, they are not meant to do this, god forbid you gotta joust your pets like a scout has to do every AE.</div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>You cannot control swarm pets so please if you have no clue, dont post.</p><p> </p>

[Al]

<div>Refering to the guy who stated scout pet are useless in raids. I can use all my HHs back to back and in a short fight that lasts about 30 seconds and a necro with a charmed pet will do more DPS than me, shouldnt I have more burst DPS than a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] necro?. Sorry but thats not right, gj on the nerf sony. Conjs can do 900dps on singles too and 1000s on AE.</div>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Cecil_Strife wrote:<div>You guys do more damage then most classes in game.. how can you complain about something that is just logical as this?</div><hr></blockquote><p>There is nothing logical about this. Pre LU 13 our dots were exactly that, dots. You cast them, they either stuck and did damage for their duration or were resisted. Exactly like any other spell.  Post LU 13 they were changed into a dumb fire pet. No problem with that at all. Nice bit of class flavour. The dumbfire pets were initially overpowered and were gaining the bonus damage from our pet buffs. They removed this. So then they were underpowered and had the damage from AOE's removed to compensate. Seemed fine to me. Parsing the dumbfire pets brought in figures comparable to what the old DOT spell used to do. Now we have a DOT that can be killed by AOE's again. If we have to think of them as true pets again, subject to normal AOE damage then give them the full benefits of pets and have them affected by out pet buffs. Our normal pets are, our charmed pets are. Even our charmed pets pets are. So if you are going to make our rats, dogs and zombie swarm/dumbfire pets act as true pets and get killed as such then follow what you consider so logical and make them benefit as well (pet buffs). At least they might do some decent damage before dying to a CA, AOE or similiar.</p><p>I play a pet class for a reason. I like pets. I dont want to go on a raid to cast a few medium powered dots, the occassional low powered nuke with 0 pets in action as they do not last long enough to be worth casting. Taking this change to its logical extension any pet, this includes such things as the Fury healing tree etc should be subject to death by AOE. Lets see how well that sits.</p><p>I would prefer that if they considered with good positioning our dumbfire/swarm pets lasted too long and did too much damage and were hence unbalancing, then give them a duration (30S duration, 45S recast). These pets already take a lot of effort to use effectively, positioning, timing (to avoid casting on a mob about to die which cancels the spell) and some dumb luck (pet pathing is always hit or miss). Lets not make them subject to AOE vagarities as well.</p><p>If anyone remembers the old days of EQ 1 where summoners were banned from using pets on raids due to control issues, lets not go one further with petsnot being used by choice due to being useless.</p><p>Sark. </p>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>Refering to the guy who stated scout pet are useless in raids. I can use all my HHs back to back and in a short fight that lasts about 30 seconds and a necro with a charmed pet will do more DPS than me, shouldnt I have more burst DPS than a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] necro?. Sorry but thats not right, gj on the nerf sony. Conjs can do 900dps on singles too and 1000s on AE.</div><hr></blockquote><div>I'm sorry but I have no clue what your getting at here. You are saying that you can use all your high damage CA's (I have no clue what HH stands for) in a short duration fight and a necro with a charmed pet can outdps you ? Charmed pet DPS is pretty low and comes with a fair degree of risk (charm breaking mid encounter). Most of our dps comes from our pets and spells, not uber charmed minions. I also play an Assassin (only level 35 at the moment) and I kill mobs solo far more quickly than an equal level summoner class. I pick my battles carefully and fight mobs suited to my level (and whether I am grouped or not). I do not wish to cast doubts on the abilities of someone who has earned level 60 in their respective class, so that leaves the well documented issues with your class as the probable cause for any DPS issues (postiioning problems, CA's knocking you out of stealth, bruiser classed mobs blocking your rear attacks). Please take your DPS concerns and raise them as an Assassin issue rather than saying that class does more damage than me so nerf them. It is never well recieved.</div><div>Sark.</div>

[Za]

OK, the biggest issue here... If you plan to have dumbfires die from AOEs, PLEASE code it so their agro doesn't drop on the caster when they die.This just compounds the problem.I'd rather lower their specific dps and keep them up, than keep their dps and loose the ability to at lease not get agro at any moment with no control at all.

[ag]

Given every Necro I've ever grouped with is outdamaged only by Rangers, I'd say they can survive this change without even noticing.1000 DPS for sending your pet in and casting four spells? /swoonThat's the stuff dreams are made of, boys and girls, and 55+ Necros can do it any day of the week. If you doubt it, turn on /log'ing and you too will see the light.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Given every Necro I've ever grouped with is outdamaged only by Rangers, I'd say they can survive this change without even noticing.1000 DPS for sending your pet in and casting four spells? /swoonThat's the stuff dreams are made of, boys and girls, and 55+ Necros can do it any day of the week. If you doubt it, turn on /log'ing and you too will see the light.<hr></blockquote>Please post a lg file... sigh... exageration starts more crap...No 1000 dps on an avg fight is complete BS.

[XBr]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Given every Necro I've ever grouped with is outdamaged only by Rangers, I'd say they can survive this change without even noticing.1000 DPS for sending your pet in and casting four spells? /swoonThat's the stuff dreams are made of, boys and girls, and 55+ Necros can do it any day of the week. If you doubt it, turn on /log'ing and you too will see the light.<hr></blockquote>Please post a lg file... sigh... exageration starts more crap...No 1000 dps on an avg fight is complete BS.<hr></blockquote>I likely would not have a problem if the dumbfires were nerfed a bit in dps. The problem with this chnage is that it specifically and significantly reduces summoner dps only on fights with big AOE's, where we already have problems keeping our regular pets up. Those are the fights I care most about, coz they're the headliner raid fights.

[Za]

True, the typical group fight won't be affected at all anyway... In big fights now I have to worry about keeping main pet alive, keeping dumfire pets alive, and through all of their deaths, avoiding the agro that will get piled on all at once when they die at the same time. hehe!

[KBern]

<div>Its OK, soloing and groups we are fine...it is raids where this will be felt and everyone will feel it.</div><div> </div><div>This is not reduced DPS, this is almost stopping swarm pets (ie DOTS) from being used in raids.</div><div> </div><div>Reduce the DPS if that is the reason behind this change, but to make them destroyable is just crazy.</div><div> </div><div>I just love all the summoner "experts" from other classes that post here lol, almost like a convention of The Future Fiction Writers of the World.</div>

[Sonic X]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>necros have no problem doing 1000dps in the raid setting and are T1 dps, they are not meant to do this, god forbid you gotta joust your pets like a scout has to do every AE.</div><hr></blockquote>I love people who don't know what they're talking about.Dumbfire pet's work like this:You target and then cast the spell.The pet's then spawn and run to the target.The pet's continually attack the target and despawns if it is killed or the spell duration wears off.Most people try to time it and on top of timing it try to make sure they are behind the mob to not draw aggro because MOBS can and DO target the pet's and are able to KILL OUR DAMAGE.That means the one spell besides our NORMAL PET that does damage can be easily killed on any raid.SECONDLY, WE CANNOT CONTROL THEM LIKE NORMAL PETS, WE CAN'T MAKE THEM JOUST.So now before they even do more then 100 damage they will be killed by a majority of raid mobs.On top of it there have been times when i pull my regular pet out of range when timing from raid mob AoE's and they die, my normal pet accounts for 50% of anything i am able to do. When are all the non-pet based classes going to realize are pet's are still not as good as the real thing and account for 50% of what i do, healers don't have to worry about keeping something else alive to be effective at what they do. Yes this is part of what are class is about. But i sure as hell ain't nuking mobs for 8K damage, and now the one spells that does do damage will be killed, and i have like no use on anything with an insane AoE.On top of this even if i still casted the dumbfire pet's when they die so easily i can imagine not using it because the mob will haul [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to me since all the aggro goes straight to me.Learn facts before you talk about what you don't know.All those people complaining about charmed undead, the only raid i've ever been on to have something i can charm is lockjaw. That's a very very limited utility spell... Yup soo overpowered *end sarcasm*</span></div><p>Message Edited by Sonic X on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:14 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sonic X on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:15 PM</span></p>

[Emperad]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>armus550 wrote:<div>- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them.</div><hr></blockquote>Am i missing something here, this is talking about making the pets vulnerable to AoEs that the MOB might use. This means to me that they will now take damage when the MOB unleashes it, NOT that they are invincible to MOB AoEs. You and the pets will both take the damage.What SOE should really have done is let the NEC take the damage their pets take as the pet is a conjuration of them and their life. HEHE stop your complaining and deal with the logical change they are adding in game. Your pets should not be immune to MOB AoE.</span></div>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Given every Necro I've ever grouped with is outdamaged only by Rangers, I'd say they can survive this change without even noticing.1000 DPS for sending your pet in and casting four spells? /swoonThat's the stuff dreams are made of, boys and girls, and 55+ Necros can do it any day of the week. If you doubt it, turn on /log'ing and you too will see the light.<hr></blockquote><p>No we will notice. We already have noticed. I consider myself quite a skilful player of my class and cannot regularly churn out 1000 dps on raid mobs/high level named. These are the main candidates to have an AOE and hence are the subject of this change. Scout and tank pets will miss often on level 63+ encounters due to the mobs being orange/red. This is standard of all melee. The warlock pet might not have the same penalties as melee re hitting but will still have a significant resist rate. So no huge dps there. Now which 4 spells are we lazily casting to get us up to 1000 dps. I presume you mean our Lich spell with its damage proc on disease based spells. Okay thats 1. My 2 highest dots do a combined 300dps, my largest nuke does 100dps, thats 400 if I dont get resists, so I assume my pet does 600dps. Against a raid mob, I don't think so.</p><p>Quoting necros in groups is irrelevant, the change affects AOE mobs so its raids we are talking about.</p><p>I'm sorry to get defensive but people throwing around unsubstantiated dps figures, and making claims about group dps having any relevance on this discussion as compared to raid dps gets annoying very fast. To me it sounds a lot like class envy/jealousy more than a serious desire to get classes balanced. I too can say things like "My group attacked a mob and the Assassin assassinated it and it was dead before I got my dots on it, so my dps sucked. Nerf Assassins please. Calling for class nerfs rather than correction of other class issues is insulting to those that have played their class since day 1 and lived through some pretty rough times. Especially when the claims to back them up sounds like something made up off the top of their heads.</p><p>If summoners are so overpowered people, roll one up and play through 50+ levels to get to where you are raid capable, then make the calls for DPS change.</p><p>Sark.</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Emperador wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>armus550 wrote:<div>- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them.</div><hr></blockquote>Am i missing something here, this is talking about making the pets vulnerable to AoEs that the MOB might use. This means to me that they will now take damage when the MOB unleashes it, NOT that they are invincible to MOB AoEs. You and the pets will both take the damage.What SOE should really have done is let the NEC take the damage their pets take as the pet is a conjuration of them and their life. HEHE stop your complaining and deal with the logical change they are adding in game. Your pets should not be immune to MOB AoE.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes actually you are.  You are missing alot here.</p><p> </p>

[PIexor]

<div></div>Go play an assassin and have all your dps go away due to the ae of any orange raid mob unless you somehow can get 6000+ resists.....

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Emperador wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>armus550 wrote:<div>- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them.</div><hr></blockquote>Am i missing something here, this is talking about making the pets vulnerable to AoEs that the MOB might use. This means to me that they will now take damage when the MOB unleashes it, NOT that they are invincible to MOB AoEs. You and the pets will both take the damage.What SOE should really have done is let the NEC take the damage their pets take as the pet is a conjuration of them and their life. HEHE stop your complaining and deal with the logical change they are adding in game. Your pets should not be immune to MOB AoE.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>This is getting repetitive. The pets are basically a dot with a graphic. Why should our dots be subject to death from mob AOE's. No other class has to deal with their spells being killed. Lets see ice comet come as a big chunk of ice that takes a few seconds to get to as mob, with a chance to be killed enroute. That fury tree that heals, sorry mr tree, you got aoe'ed before you healed anyone. Never mind. Maybe next time. Lets keep perspective here folks. This isn't our pet, which we have control over to help avoid AOE's (/pet backoff). To those that say let us deal with jousting like other melee, sorry we arent melee, we are casters. And I do joust my pets now, the ones I can control that is. These are not called dumbfire pets for no reason. We can't change their position, joust them, heal them or any other pet functionality. But apparently we can let them die. Nice change.</p><p>Sark.</p>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>PIexor wrote:<div></div>Go play an assassin and have all your dps go away due to the ae of any orange raid mob unless you somehow can get 6000+ resists.....<hr></blockquote><p>I do actually play an Assassin but not yet to raid level. Again please stop using Assassin issues as justification for a change to the summoner classes. The 2 issues are not linked as as such your argument has no relevenace here. There is only so many times I can say I feel sorry for the issues your class has, but at the same time get tired of defending my own class from green eyed monsters. </p><p>Sark.</p><p>Message Edited by Sarkoris on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p>

[SniplenButterfigs]

<div></div><div></div><p>MAGUS wrote:</p><p>"Why did you post this twice in the same forum?"</p><p>Maybe it was a mistake, Officer.:smileywink:</p><p>Message Edited by SniplenButterfigs on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:44 PM</span></p>

[Fayline Fyrecat]

<div></div><div>As a conjuror, I've been thinking about this change... Yes, our dps will be reduced but I look at it a little differently.  Since some mobs now have the ability to cast swarm pets on players (spiders, for example); if my pet doesn't take them off me I kill them with AE and PBAoE.  Makes sense to me that mobs should be able to do the same.</div>

[Scyros]

<div></div><div>All of you non-summoners that seem to know all there is about EQ2 seem to have missed something.  summoners are not the only class that has dumbfire pets.  This change will be effecting a great deal of classes.  You all realize that dumbfire pets inclued: warden's healing tree and dogs, fury's ring of fire, mystic/defiler warding pet, SK temp pet, wizzard flame carpet, warlocks nightblood pet and so on.  I think you all get the point.  Any spell that has it's effect come from some summoned npc or targetable type of creature is classified as a "dumbfire" pet.  So enjoy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Dejah]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sarkoris wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Emperador wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>armus550 wrote:<div>- Dumbfire pets will now receive damage from AoEs that do not explicitly target them.</div><hr></blockquote>Am i missing something here, this is talking about making the pets vulnerable to AoEs that the MOB might use. This means to me that they will now take damage when the MOB unleashes it, NOT that they are invincible to MOB AoEs. You and the pets will both take the damage.What SOE should really have done is let the NEC take the damage their pets take as the pet is a conjuration of them and their life. HEHE stop your complaining and deal with the logical change they are adding in game. Your pets should not be immune to MOB AoE.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>This is getting repetitive. The pets are basically a dot with a graphic. Why should our dots be subject to death from mob AOE's. No other class has to deal with their spells being killed. Lets see ice comet come as a big chunk of ice that takes a few seconds to get to as mob, with a chance to be killed enroute. That fury tree that heals, sorry mr tree, you got aoe'ed before you healed anyone. Never mind. Maybe next time. Lets keep perspective here folks. This isn't our pet, which we have control over to help avoid AOE's (/pet backoff). To those that say let us deal with jousting like other melee, sorry we arent melee, we are casters. And I do joust my pets now, the ones I can control that is. These are not called dumbfire pets for no reason. We can't change their position, joust them, heal them or any other pet functionality. But apparently we can let them die. Nice change.</p><p>Sark.</p><hr></blockquote><div>Wizards also have a dumb fire pet dot, its called protoflame.  Warlocks have dumb fire pets too.  The protoflame has always been subject to death from AEs, I never knew that the summoner's dumbfire pets were an exception to this.  I'm not sure about the Fury tree, but I know the Warden tree can already be killed from an AE. </div><div> </div><div>The update note didn't make sense to me when I first read it, because from all my experiences it already worked that way.  But from what I've read from summoners today it sounds like summoner dumbfire pets used to be an exception to this. </div><div> </div><div>As a wizard I've already adjusted to the fact that AEs will kill my protoflame, so I am extra cautious when I cast it on a mob I know AEs frequently.</div>

[Scyros]

<div>No all dumbfire's have been immune to AE for some time.  But it isn't an exact 100% thing.  Some AE's dont really count as AE's.  Like barrage or any AE that is not 360 degrees would always kill them.  That is why possitioning them is always key.  Or at least it was.</div><div> </div><div>Then you also have cases on raids where someone picks up agro and flips mob.  Almost 100% of the time the mob will barrage when flipped and wipe all dumbfire pets, thus apearing like an AE.</div>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><div>That is what i thought - all pets could die to CA's (fair enough) and direct damage - but not AOE's. I will stand corrected if someone can prove me wrong though.</div><div> </div><div>Sark.</div><p>Message Edited by Sarkoris on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:07 AM</span></p>

[cfteagu]

<div></div><div>Ok, for everyone who thinks it is reasonable for a dumbfire pet to take damage when it is in an AE, (which admittedly is reasonable):  Here's why the summoners are mad.</div><div> </div><div>Back before LU13, we had several dots.  With LU 13, some of the dots were changed to be dumbfire pets instead.  This was effectively a nerf, because a DOT can't be killed, but the pet has about 5 HPs, so it dies if it steps on a rusty nail.</div><div> </div><div>Summoners complained, and instead of changing the spells back to DOTs, they made the pets immune to any AE which wasn't actually targetted at the pet.  So if the pet gets aggro, it's toast.   But otherwise, it will last ok.  So it was "sorta" back to being a DOT, and summoners were happy.</div><div> </div><div>Now, they are changing it.  My guess is it's really for player-vs-player for KoSky.  If summoner pets were not affected by player AE's unless you target the pet, then that can be exploited perhaps.  (of course, if our spells were just back to being real DOTs, then once they were cast, there wouldnt be much way to get rid of them)</div><div> </div><div>But the effect is to make our DOTs into killable pets.  It's like giving the AE mobs a little button that says "click here to take less damage from summoners".</div><div> </div><div>If the devs think we are doing too much damage, and WANT to nerf us, FINE.   But they should SAY SO.</div><div> </div><div>I'm just tired of getting accidently nerfed by DEVs who dont even know they are nerfing us.  (the devs though the LU13 change to make our dots into pets would be "more fun&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  So until I see WHY they are doing this, I'm gonna complain</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by cfteague2 on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:31 PM</span></p>

[Gargamel]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>cfteague2 wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div>Now, they are changing it.  My guess is it's really for player-vs-player for KoSky.  If summoner pets were not affected by player AE's unless you target the pet, then that can be exploited perhaps.  (of course, if our spells were just back to being real DOTs, then once they were cast, there wouldnt be much way to get rid of them)</div><div> </div><div>But the effect is to make our DOTs into killable pets.  It's like giving the AE mobs a little button that says "click here to take less damage from summoners".</div><div> </div><div>If the devs think we are doing too much damage, and WANT to nerf us, FINE.   But they should SAY SO.</div><div> </div><div>I'm just tired of getting accidently nerfed by DEVs who dont even know they are nerfing us.  (the devs though the LU13 change to make our dots into pets would be "more fun&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  So until I see WHY they are doing this, I'm gonna complain</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by cfteague2 on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:31 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Nope... SoE clearly stated that the PvP 'effects' of spells would be totally seperate than PvE 'effects'.  That is if you target a player, it might do more dmg, less dmg, apply a different resistance filter, even a while different effect.</p><p>Anyway, point is they said they designed it all along so that they could have to completely seperate rulesets running in parallel without one affecting the other.</p><p> </p><p>Probably something to do with a bug they can't fix and this is a workaround.Someone mentioned earlier about MOB's that had 'dumbfire' pets now in-game, or are going to soon.  I could see the 'immune' AoE effect set for summoned dumbfire pets, causing some kind of bug where if you targeted the MOB and not the pets, the pets would be immune in that case also.Because they could not seperate the two, they just figured remove it from both.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Gargamel on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:04 PM</span></p>

[Tuppen]

<div>somewhere up there in all that some folks made comments about wardens soloing heroics two levels above them--and then someone else said that wardens use their roots.  They must be the most decked-out, skilled wardens I have ever seen. </div><div> </div><div>I can  assure you that, if such a super warden exists, they aren't keeping the mob rooted and sending in the wolf dumbfire pets  to do damage on the rooted mob.   Mobs will attack and kill the wolves if they are rooted out of melee range of the warden.  The wolves die very quickly--especially to a heroic of blue or greater con.</div><div> </div><div>The only way a warden can have the wolves active on a mob that is rooted and NOT have them be the target of the mob is if someone else with enough hate (and if solo, this means the warden him or herself) is getting beat on by the mob.</div><div> </div><div>It is a risky proposition for the warden to let himself get beat on by a yellow heroic mob just so his/her wolves can do some damage.</div>

[Za]

Nevermind... none of this really matters. I'd just like a response from someone with knowledge on why the change and what they think this will do.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:48 PM</span></p>

[Sarkoris]

<div></div><p>I agree Zald - a response from a dev on the test team with a quick - this was needed because - or we hope to achieve this type post would help a lot.</p><p> </p><p>Sark.</p>

[armus5]

<div>hense the title, why? It's not so much a dps issue, though it will significantly affect necro dps (and YES, dps of any class with dumbfire pets). It's about a spell that on raids is virtually useless. It takes a named or better mob to have a real AOE and truth is lesser mobs die too fast to worry about the dumbfires. But I'd find it hard to think of necro dumbfires as meant for anything but. 45 second duration, 15 second recast. Mobs just don't last that long. I can't speak for other classes, unlike all those flames that thought they could speak for summoners, but as so many others have stated, if you wanted to nerf the pets, nerf them. But don't make what was once our best dots, worthless.</div><div>And above all, we want an answer. I can count on probably both my hands the number of dev posts in the necro forum. If you can justify it, then do so. If you can offer compensation, that's the key.</div>

[Scyros]

<div></div><p>To answer the question on wardens.  And no I dont want them nerfed.  I think wardens are great.  But I have sat and watched a lvl 57 warden take out lvl 60 heroic grps.  It's pretty simple really.  cast tree, root 2 dogs up on one and nuke it while other is beating on you.  Tree might get agro here but didnt seem to slow him down.  After first mob is down re root 2 and take out the one beating on you.  Then root one send in the dogs on other.  And finaly take down last mob.  He did this several times at 57 and would finish the fight at 90% HP and no less than 50% pow.</p><p>Now I can't take those grps down.  But kudos to this very smart and patient warden that probably took a few deaths to figure this out.  And it's not without risk either.  Any of those root fail and things could go south real fast.</p><p>My point here is so many people point the finger and conj/necro for being so uberly overpowered.  Yeah we can take down green con heroics, maybe a blue is everything works just right.  But no way in hell I can take out mobs 2-3 lvls higher.  Yet conj/necro are the ones that are overpowered lol.  Maybe it's not a case of being overpowered.  Maybe it's a case of being a good/smart player.  I can take just about any class and kill heroics if i wanted to.  You just have to learn the class and what it's strengths and weaknesses are.  Yes necro's can take a single non caster heroic 2-3 lvl above them.  But it takes all day to do it.  Not very effective use of my time.  I'd rather go grp and get 20-30% xp an hour, or nice loot since xp is meaningless to me.</p><p>And yes I'd rather see a reply as too why this is being done.  PVP is doubtful since there are several ways to wipe dumbfire pets without even doing dmg to them.  I can't for the life of me understand why this is needed.  The only place this will effect us is on raids and with the amount of HP raid mobs have(600k) 120 DPS seem pretty inconsequential.  I hope we get some form of a reply on this.</p>

[selch]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:OK, the biggest issue here... If you plan to have dumbfires die from AOEs, PLEASE code it so their agro doesn't drop on the caster when they die.This just compounds the problem.I'd rather lower their specific dps and keep them up, than keep their dps and loose the ability to at lease not get agro at any moment with no control at all.<hr></blockquote>:smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>You guys are amazing!  "I want to solo all but not to die" , I mean AOE this is, effects anyone in range. What's the super privilage of pets? Or you Conj/Necros know people on high places of SOE?</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<div></div><p>To put it simply, our dumbfire pets, nor anyone else's for that matter, should not be killable via non-targeted AOE spells.</p><p>So long as the attack is not directed at them, they should not die, with exception to barrage and riposte (which is aleviated with cleaver possitioning)</p><p>This change will not last long, and im possitive it is an overcite.</p><p>This severly limits many classes in raiding situations.</p><p>Im just wondering why this complete flip-flop of ideas just came into the picture, swarm pets are not ment to be killed by aoe..thats like a unwritten law of the summoner class lol!</p><p>Its like the raid mob could remove your tanks Vitae, Regen, Wards, or remove all your rog/pred's poisons, or perhaps disable one of your weapons or 1/2 of your CA/nukes by simply using it's AOE, thats the equivilant of it removing our swarm pets.</p><p>I personally dont belive conj/necro deals too much damage on raids, it's the one portion of the game where our class's damage style really shines, duration fighting. We are in the 2nd dps tier on short fights, and should be on the top tier for durations fights (any fight that lasts 45 seconds or more, typically raids or named mobs)</p><p>If for some reason we are out damaging wiz/warlock on fights that are 25 seconds or less, then give the sorceror's a slight boost in upfront damage (or rather, a reduction in the horribly long casting times!!)</p>

[Elik]

<div></div><p>As I stated in another thread, the dogs and our other dumbfires are just plain DOT's with some qute graphics. So why not make ALL offensive DOT's break on AOE? Its not that a big drop in our DPS..</p><p>Plain stupid, try doing this to all other classes DOT's. :smileyindifferent:</p><p>Kaieli L60 Necromancer Splitpaw</p>

[Roland The Pu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div>I see Wardens solo heroics 2 lvls higher than them all the time. <hr></div></blockquote><p>Wow, which wardens - I want to learn from them as I just get owned by heroics lol</p><p> </p>

[Tuppen]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div></div><p>To answer the question on wardens.  And no I dont want them nerfed.  I think wardens are great.  But I have sat and watched a lvl 57 warden take out lvl 60 heroic grps.  It's pretty simple really.  cast tree, root 2 dogs up on one and nuke it while other is beating on you.  <strong>Tree</strong> might get agro here but didnt seem to slow him down.  After first mob is down re root 2 and take out the one beating on you.  Then root one send in the dogs on other.  And finaly take down last mob.  He did this several times at 57 and would finish the fight at 90% HP and no less than 50% pow.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I am a level 60 warden.  I want to know who this warden was because he or she needs to teach me how to do that.  I can solo grouped heroic or  single heroic mobs just fine....if they are green.  I use <strong>almost</strong> precisely the method you describe with the green heroics.  I can do this at great risk with blues if they are just about to turn green.  I cannot do this with even con or yellow mobs.  I am told that I am a very good warden.  But, apparently I am a  far cry from the warden you claim to have observed.  </p><p>The accurate method for soloing grouped heroic mobs is to keep them all rooted, nuke one until root breaks.  When root breaks on that one, cast the wolves on it while it beats on you.  Keep the other mobs rooted, then rinse and repeat. </p><p>By the way, you are pretty obvisiously mistaken.  We don't get the tree until level 58.  He didnt have it to help him if he was level 57.</p><p>Maybe you saw a level 60 warden take out a group of level 57 heroics.  That <strong>is</strong> possible. </p><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Tuppen on <span class="date_text">01-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:39 AM</span></p>

[schrammy]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:stuff<hr>:smileyvery-happy:</blockquote></div><div> </div><div>You guys are amazing!  "I want to solo all but not to die" , I mean AOE this is, effects anyone in range. What's the super privilage of pets? Or you Conj/Necros know people on high places of SOE?</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Great post selch, were you reading another thread and accidentaly replied to this one?</p><p>I have to congratulate you with such an insightfull post.</p><p>Yes those dumbfire's are completely controllable and invulnerable pets at this moment. You are right, as a matter of fact; they are still too strong.Make it so that they die as soon as they get in range with any mob or player.</p><p>All of the summoners in here are just whiners, and do not want anyone to find out on our pact with blackguard to be the best class ingame. if they nerf my pets i will not be able to solo naggy anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Dammit blackguard, this was not part of our deal. I guess he is jealous that he was unable to solo naggy on the AB server</p>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>necros have no problem doing 1000dps in the raid setting and are T1 dps, they are not meant to do this, god forbid you gotta joust your pets like a scout has to do every AE.</div><hr></blockquote>You are an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]-as-in? And you are not top DPS? OMG! /cry! Do you feel your p-e-n-i-s shrinking?</span><div></div>

[schrammy]

<div></div><p>Thats another great contribution.</p><p> </p><p>Where have you ever seen a necro doing 1000 dps in a raid? please enlighten us with your fantastic vision</p>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>PIexor wrote:<div></div>Go play an assassin and have all your dps go away due to the ae of any orange raid mob unless you somehow can get 6000+ resists.....<hr></blockquote>Honey, you are missing one point. Necros and Conjurors ARE NOT melee class. We DO NOT fight in AE, we DO NOT have to run in / run out. We are MAGES, with VLA armor. And our swarm pets are DOTs. Like it or not. Even our main DOT was changed to swarm pet in LU13. And now it will "die" to every AE. Basically SOE just REMOVED one our spell from raids. Simple.And about your crying that assasins cant do dps - i think the problem is with your <b>hands.ini</b> file. Our assasin is always in top dps group.</span><div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div></div><p>Thats another great contribution.</p><p> </p><p>Where have you ever seen a necro doing 1000 dps in a raid? please enlighten us with your fantastic vision</p><hr></blockquote>Well, in PP:Return necro can really do 1500+ DPS on those 20-mobs encounters. Warlock is doing 2500-3500 DPS on them. Conjuror - 2000-5000 DPS. And pooooor assasins doing just 800dps. IMA go and cry in corner. Poor assasins.</span><div></div>

[schrammy]

<div><div>I haven't been there yet, so i was unaware of that one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>But if i understand, it still puts us behind the warlock, who's the ae king. so we use our one ae spell (ad3 does just around 1k) all mobs are dead. I would hardly call that a dps parse  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>cfteague2 wrote:<div></div><div>Ok, for everyone who thinks it is reasonable for a dumbfire pet to take damage when it is in an AE, (which admittedly is reasonable):  Here's why the summoners are mad.</div><div> </div><div>Back before LU13, we had several dots.  With LU 13, some of the dots were changed to be dumbfire pets instead.  This was effectively a nerf, because a DOT can't be killed, but the pet has about 5 HPs, so it dies if it steps on a rusty nail.</div><div> </div><div>Summoners complained, and instead of changing the spells back to DOTs, they made the pets immune to any AE which wasn't actually targetted at the pet.  So if the pet gets aggro, it's toast.   But otherwise, it will last ok.  So it was "sorta" back to being a DOT, and summoners were happy.</div><div> </div><div>Now, they are changing it.  My guess is it's really for player-vs-player for KoSky.  If summoner pets were not affected by player AE's unless you target the pet, then that can be exploited perhaps.  (of course, if our spells were just back to being real DOTs, then once they were cast, there wouldnt be much way to get rid of them)</div><div> </div><div>But the effect is to make our DOTs into killable pets.  It's like giving the AE mobs a little button that says "click here to take less damage from summoners".</div><div> </div><div>If the devs think we are doing too much damage, and WANT to nerf us, FINE.   But they should SAY SO.</div><div> </div><div>I'm just tired of getting accidently nerfed by DEVs who dont even know they are nerfing us.  (the devs though the LU13 change to make our dots into pets would be "more fun&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  So until I see WHY they are doing this, I'm gonna complain</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by cfteague2 on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:31 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Dont forget that all these swarm pets can be CURED while in duel, not just killed. Ask anyone who has NOX cure to duel with necro, ask necro to cast swarm pets - and just cast NOX cure. Vouila - pets are gone.</span><div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div><div>I haven't been there yet, so i was unaware of that one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>But if i understand, it still puts us behind the warlock, who's the ae king. so we use our one ae spell (ad3 does just around 1k) all mobs are dead. I would hardly call that a dps parse  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</div></div><hr></blockquote>Aye, its just an EXTREMAL example of DPS parsing.</span><div></div>

[gita]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div>Wizards also have a dumb fire pet dot, its called protoflame.  Warlocks have dumb fire pets too.  The protoflame has always been subject to death from AEs, I never knew that the summoner's dumbfire pets were an exception to this.  I'm not sure about the Fury tree, but I know the Warden tree can already be killed from an AE. </div></blockquote></span><blockquote><hr>yep the warden tree is a "Group HEAL" and can be killed from an AE, and wardens got also the Wolf Pack who is a DOT and can be killed from an AE too.i agree there is no reason for have exceptions on summoners, if a HEAL is killable by AE, and every other swarm pet (wizard/warlock) is killable too by AEs.</blockquote><div></div>

[KBern]

<div>Come one Devs...</div><div> </div><div>Give us a logical explanation as to why our DOTS can be DISPELLED by another mobs AOE?</div>

[Scyros]

<div></div><p>Sorry that was a typo.  The warden I saw was 58.  Still doen't change the fact that he was soloing pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well.</p><p>And I'd like to point this out again because some of you just want to laugh and point at summoners like we are all some evil plague to the land of EQ2. So here goes.</p><p>THIS WILL EFFECT ALL DUMBFIRE PETS! NOT JUST SUMMONER PET.  Yes that mean your healing tree, ring of fire, warding shard, all ground based AE effects like ring of fire, warlock little nightblood, SK skelly, all of them will now be killed be AE.  Wake up and smell the nerf to everyone.  Not just those evil necro's or those stuck up overpowered conj.  We are just the ones who have had to deal with this in the past.  So we know how much it sucks and will render these spells useless.  And what kills me is how some of the poster here speak as if they hate summon's just bacause we do ok DPS.  Or because a few of us are really good at playing our class.  If you would spend a little less time worried about what we can to and a bit more time learning your class and learning to enjoy your class, you would be much happier.  Is it our fault you picked a class that for what ever reason you don't like?  Just stop with all this class evny "i hate class X because they do something better than me" crap.  It's not going to solve a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. </p>

[Xebars]

<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div></div><p>Thats another great contribution.</p><p> </p><p>Where have you ever seen a necro doing 1000 dps in a raid? please enlighten us with your fantastic vision</p><hr></blockquote>People that do not understand how to read CombatStats think necro's and Conj's are getting close to, or over 1000dps.They don't get that...the lil number in parentheses, next to the summoner's name...that's PET DAMAGE.  It's added INTO the summoners total dmg, then ALSO broken down BELOW the summoner's name so you can see JUST what the pet is doing,BUT, they don't get this so...they see oh 690dps or so next to the Summoner, plus 300ish next to the pet and think...to add the two. They're counting the pet's dps twice.  Most of the full-master Summoners in my guild parse out at about 700ish, excluding huge groups like the PP:R trash mobs.  Huge groups like that are not accurate reflections of DPS on a raid target.While 700 may STILL be a little high for T2 dps, a nerf like this will drop them WAAAY down the parser.  Someone said earlier to learn to time swarm pets....with their casting time, timing the release of Swarms to coincide with AoE's would HURT dps more than help it.  The fact is, they're going to be cast once at the beginning of a fight, and probably never cast again.  It won't be worth wasting the nuking time to get ready and pulse swarms.</span><div></div>

[myount]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div></div><p>Sorry that was a typo.  The warden I saw was 58.  Still doen't change the fact that he was soloing pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well.</p><p>And I'd like to point this out again because some of you just want to laugh and point at summoners like we are all some evil plague to the land of EQ2. So here goes.</p><p>THIS WILL EFFECT ALL DUMBFIRE PETS! NOT JUST SUMMONER PET.  Yes that mean your healing tree, ring of fire, warding shard, all ground based AE effects like ring of fire, warlock little nightblood, SK skelly, all of them will now be killed be AE.  Wake up and smell the nerf to everyone.  Not just those evil necro's or those stuck up overpowered conj.  We are just the ones who have had to deal with this in the past.  So we know how much it sucks and will render these spells useless.  And what kills me is how some of the poster here speak as if they hate summon's just bacause we do ok DPS.  Or because a few of us are really good at playing our class.  If you would spend a little less time worried about what we can to and a bit more time learning your class and learning to enjoy your class, you would be much happier.  Is it our fault you picked a class that for what ever reason you don't like?  Just stop with all this class evny "i hate class X because they do something better than me" crap.  It's not going to solve a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. </p><hr></blockquote><p>My healing tree does die from one aoe, hell one light tap kills it.  I am pretty sure my dumb fire wolves die in one AoE as well.  I hope you guys get some compensation for this, sucks to have your #1 damage in Raids nerfed.</p><p> </p>

[Tuppen]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div></div><p>Sorry that was a typo.  The warden I saw was 58.  Still doen't change the fact that he was soloing pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Yes, it does change the facts of what you stated.  Obviously you were mistaken in what you thought you observed.  A warden cannot stand and be beat on by a yellow HEROIC mob to keep his pets from getting aggro while it is ROOTED and expect to live.  He can snare it, yes.  He can kite it while they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at its heels, yes--but he can't stand and take that sort of punishment.  Our physical mitigation is not that good.  Frankly, I don't believe you witnessed what you believe you witnessed.  You witnessed something, I am sure, but it isn't what you are stating.  </font></p><p>And I'd like to point this out again because some of you just want to laugh and point at summoners like we are all some evil plague to the land of EQ2. So here goes.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">For the record, I don't think any of the wardens who have posted in this thread have anything against summoner's ability to solo.  I know it doesn't matter to me at all.  I don't think you are an evil plague.</font></p><p>THIS WILL EFFECT ALL DUMBFIRE PETS! NOT JUST SUMMONER PET.  Yes that mean<strong> your healing tree</strong>,</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Also for the record, this ALREADY affects our tree.  Our tree has ALWAYS died from AOE damage.  ALWAYS.  This is nothing new regarding the warden's tree.  We are used to it.  We wanted it changed to be in line with other dumb pets, but it appears that they are doing the reverse.  Personally, I don't like the planned change.  I <strong><u>do</u></strong> think that our dumb pets should be <strong><u>immune</u></strong> to AOE damage. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">My point in posting here is to contradict your comments regarding the warden's ability to solo.  We cannot do what you are claiming.  Period.  If you have seen it done, then please introduce me to this superior warden because I definitely need lessons in how to do what he/she is doing.</font></p><p>ring of fire, warding shard, all ground based AE effects like ring of fire, warlock little nightblood, SK skelly, all of them will now be killed be AE.  Wake up and smell the nerf to everyone.  Not just those evil necro's or those stuck up overpowered conj.  We are just the ones who have had to deal with this in the past.  So we know how much it sucks and will render these spells useless.  And what kills me is how some of the poster here speak as if they hate summon's just bacause we do ok DPS.  Or because a few of us are really good at playing our class.  If you would spend a little less time worried about what we can to and a bit more time learning your class and learning to enjoy your class, you would be much happier.  Is it our fault you picked a class that for what ever reason you don't like?  Just stop with all this class evny "i hate class X because they do something better than me" crap.  It's not going to solve a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. </p><p><font color="#ffff00">You and I agree that nerfing the spells is a bad dea.  I am on your side.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">However, I don't like it when people try to portray warden's (or other classes) as being overpowered as you are attempting to do.  </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I never said your class was overpowered, however you keep insisting that warden's are doing the same thing your class is capable of doing.  I am saying that you are wrong.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Conceed that you are possibily mistaken in what you believe you saw regarding wardens, and then we will have nothing on which to disagree.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Scyros]

<div></div>Yes your dumbfires can be killed from AE "if" they are the target.  And I would guess that in the case of a warden the dogs grab agro pretty easy, as well as the tree.  My rotting hounds will if my main pet is not up.  But as it is right now ALL dumbfire pet are immune to AE.  There are some AE like spells that will kill them still.  Like frontal and tail lash type attacks.

[Tuppen]

<div>Trust me on this.  The warden tree doesn't have to get aggro to be killed by AoE damage.  Mine has died enough times in Scornfeathers Roost and Cazel's Mesa that I know this to be true.  It dies from AoE damage that my wolves do not die from.</div>

[Scyros]

<div>LOL thats funny Tuppen.  I never said to nerf wardens and in fact I don't think they are overpowered either.  What I did say was I felt this was a case of someone who played smart rather than a class balance issue. </div><div> </div><div>That said, for the sake of server down time fun lets say you are right.  And I got it all wrong.  You are still admitting that you can kill low blue and green heroics.  Guess what, so can I and alot of other classes if played well.  So by your own admission you can do what a necro can do.</div><div> </div><div>But I know what I saw and it was a warded soloing grps that I 2 lvls higher could never solo.  Do I care. No. Should wardens be nerfed, hell no.  I love wardens just the way they are.  I might even play one some day.</div><div> </div><div>As for the dumbfire pets.  Admittedly I don't play a warden but the patchnotes stated that "all" dumbfire pets were immune back when they made the change.  If you tree/dogs is/was not included in that then you guys got screwed.</div><div> </div><div>Some of my comments were not directed at you though Tuppen.  Just the general mood of some posters here.  Sorry if I made it seem otherwise <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Tuppen]

<div></div><font color="#ffff00"></font><blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<div> </div><div> </div><div>That said, for the sake of server down time fun lets say you are right.  And I got it all wrong.  You are still admitting that you can kill low blue and green heroics.  Guess what, so can I and alot of other classes if played well.  So by your own admission you can do what a necro can do.</div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Yep.  And that's my point.  I don't think we are overpowered, and we certainly cannot do what other classes cannot do.  We can do what several classes can do, but we are not superior to other classes in our abilities--and we aren't even on a par with some classes that can do amazing things.</font></div><div> </div><div>But I know what I saw and it was a warded soloing grps that I 2 lvls higher could never solo.  Do I care. No. Should wardens be nerfed, hell no.  I love wardens just the way they are.  I might even play one some day.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">If you say so.  Seriously though.  Find out his/her name and priivate message it to me.  I want to watch this person in action.  I can only imagine that they are in all fabled with all master spells and THEN they are also among the elite wardens.  It might teach me a thing or two.  I am better than most warden's I know (shoot...I am better than all the warden's I know--even those decked out in top of the line gear), and I can't do what you describe.</font></div><div> </div><div>As for the dumbfire pets.  Admittedly I don't play a warden but the patchnotes stated that "all" dumbfire pets were immune back when they made the change.  If you tree/dogs is/was not included in that then you guys got screwed.</div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Yes, the patch notes were wrong when it comes to our tree, and yes, we got the shaft.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Some of my comments were not directed at you though Tuppen.  Just the general mood of some posters here.  Sorry if I made it seem otherwise <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p><font color="#ffff00">I didn't take them personally, but I do take it personally when I believe that someone may be inadvertently misrepresenting what my class is capable of doing.    Misperception can cause a lot of grief for classes if it is alllowed to become a common misperception.  People start calling for the nerf bat.  Thus, I won't sit by idly and let people misrepresent the capabilities of wardens.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">If you actually saw what you believe you saw, then people need to understand that it is a very UNUSUAL and RARE occurrence.  99.99% of the wardens I know are not capable of doing what you have described.</font></p><p> </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>

[Viln]

<div></div>Not all heroics are created equal. If it's not a ^^^ mob it's fairly easy for anyone with roots to take out, no matter what class they are. You can cut the DPS of the mob in 1/2 or more depending on how many you can root.

[Xebars]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tuppen wrote:<div>Trust me on this.  The warden tree doesn't have to get aggro to be killed by AoE damage.  Mine has died enough times in Scornfeathers Roost and Cazel's Mesa that I know this to be true.  It dies from AoE damage that my wolves do not die from.</div><hr>Precisely!The Pets can be killed by Barrage, which is a frontal AoE.  They are NOT, however, killed by Chilling Mist, or Flame of the Sun, or Venomous Cloud...or any of the TRUE AoE's that Epic mobs have.  Barrage is an AoE Combat Art, so it affects dumbfires.  The others are not combat arts per se.</blockquote></span><div></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>selch wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:OK, the biggest issue here... If you plan to have dumbfires die from AOEs, PLEASE code it so their agro doesn't drop on the caster when they die.This just compounds the problem.I'd rather lower their specific dps and keep them up, than keep their dps and loose the ability to at lease not get agro at any moment with no control at all.<hr></blockquote>:smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>You guys are amazing!  "I want to solo all but not to die" , I mean AOE this is, effects anyone in range. What's the super privilage of pets? Or you Conj/Necros know people on high places of SOE?</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>See its idiots like this that cause sooo much strife. If you knew ANYTHING about what you were talking about you might be able to add something to the thread. But you don't. All you do is troll the boards.FYI, If my char is in AoE range then I'll take damage. But Necros are casters and lack the HPts and mitigation to do that.The way dumbfire pets work, If they all get AoE nuked and die at the same time, thats ALOT of agro that the caster has to absorb at virtually no notice. True, other classes have dumbfires, but they don't rely on the damage from dumbfire pets, and also also don't worry as much about the agro they'll get from them dying off all at once.Necros don't solo any better in general than any of the dps based classes. Please if you have something that makes sence, say it, but make statements of facts, don't just babble about crap you have no clue about.

[Jai1]

<div>Well this is a logical thing.  It makes sense to me that all my pets would die to an AE. What doesnt make sense is that Im a necro with 1 dot. Im not counting bats or rot either. Before we had 2 dots which seems in line for the class.  After 13 we got a quick dot which was our DD and a dumbfire for our ghastly stench line.  That didnt bother me because it does about the same amount of dam.  Any dumbfire is useless in group situations because the mobs go down too fast. They are for raids where they can realize their full damage.  I would like to have another DoT added to the arsenal if the old one can be killed by AoE.  Not counting bats or rot, we would then have 2 DoTs and 2 dumbfires.  I would rather have more dots than dumbfires anyway.</div>

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xebarsis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div></div><p>Thats another great contribution.</p><p> </p><p>Where have you ever seen a necro doing 1000 dps in a raid? please enlighten us with your fantastic vision</p><hr></blockquote>People that do not understand how to read CombatStats think necro's and Conj's are getting close to, or over 1000dps.They don't get that...the lil number in parentheses, next to the summoner's name...that's PET DAMAGE.  It's added INTO the summoners total dmg, then ALSO broken down BELOW the summoner's name so you can see JUST what the pet is doing,BUT, they don't get this so...they see oh 690dps or so next to the Summoner, plus 300ish next to the pet and think...to add the two. They're counting the pet's dps twice.  Most of the full-master Summoners in my guild parse out at about 700ish, excluding huge groups like the PP:R trash mobs.  Huge groups like that are not accurate reflections of DPS on a raid target.While 700 may STILL be a little high for T2 dps, a nerf like this will drop them WAAAY down the parser.  Someone said earlier to learn to time swarm pets....with their casting time, timing the release of Swarms to coincide with AoE's would HURT dps more than help it.  The fact is, they're going to be cast once at the beginning of a fight, and probably never cast again.  It won't be worth wasting the nuking time to get ready and pulse swarms.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I know how to read CombatStats, and I've seen necro's and Conj's parse over 1000dps on raids.  These were non-named fights of x4 mobs in Silent City, the single mob encounters like the golems up top, the repulsers, and the lions.  How did they parse over 1000dps?  Well, we had an amazing aggro control setup for the MT group, and we had the proper classes to buff them and their pets well.  I'm a wizard and in the same fights I could get up to roughly 900dps, if I pushed it to the 1000dps mark I'd pull aggro and die, so it's not just the summoners that are capable of 1000dps.  (note: all these fights lasted over a minute)</p><p>My point is that it is meaningless when people throw out parse numbers for comparing DPS of different classes on raids.  Why?  Because the DPS is not all from themselves.  They'll have buffs from other classes that increase their DPS.  And finally, if one class hits the hate wall and another doesn't, they may be capable of the same DPS but it won't show up that way on parses.</p>

[Za]

Very True Dejah! Good point.Most important thing to pull from that is that the necro was NOT doing 1000 dps. The people buffing them should get credit for some of that.

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:The way dumbfire pets work, If they all get AoE nuked and die at the same time, thats ALOT of agro that the caster has to absorb at virtually no notice. True, other classes have dumbfires, but they don't rely on the damage from dumbfire pets, and also also don't worry as much about the agro they'll get from them dying off all at once.Necros don't solo any better in general than any of the dps based classes. Please if you have something that makes sence, say it, but make statements of facts, don't just babble about crap you have no clue about.<hr></blockquote><p>Zald,</p><p>I'm a wizard and not a summoner so forgive me since I don't understand.  Does having notice of when your dumbfire pet expires make a difference?  Would you do any thing different?</p><p>For example, say your dumbfire pet X does 3000 (completely random number) over the duration of the spell if it doesn't get killed.  While the dumbfire pet is alive, the pet gets all the hate from the damage it does, but as soon as the pet dies or expires, you inherit all of the dumbfire pet's hate.  So if the pet does die early, say at the 50% duration mark, then you end up with 1500 hate, as opposed to the 3000 hate you would have gotten at the end of spells duration.  I don't see how getting unexpectedly dumped (with less hate than if it went the full duration) is a problem.  Is there something you do--prior to your dumbfire pet's expiration--to prepare for the incoming hate dump?</p><p>- Dehah</p>

[SalBlu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xebarsis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tuppen wrote:<div>Trust me on this.  The warden tree doesn't have to get aggro to be killed by AoE damage.  Mine has died enough times in Scornfeathers Roost and Cazel's Mesa that I know this to be true.  It dies from AoE damage that my wolves do not die from.</div><hr>Precisely!The Pets can be killed by Barrage, which is a frontal AoE.  They are NOT, however, killed by Chilling Mist, or Flame of the Sun, or Venomous Cloud...or any of the TRUE AoE's that Epic mobs have.  Barrage is an AoE Combat Art, so it affects dumbfires.  The others are not combat arts per se.</blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Why should that make a difference though.  That's like saying a Mage spell AOE is not supposed to hit yet a Fighter/Scout melee AOE is fine to hit.  It should not matter what type of AOE it is as long as it is dealing damage.  It should hit as long as it is a damage dealing spell.

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:Very True Dejah! Good point.Most important thing to pull from that is that the necro was NOT doing 1000 dps. The people buffing them should get credit for some of that.<hr></blockquote><p>Exactly, unfortunately parsers don't work that way (simply not enough information in the log files), and people just don't understand.</p><p>My favorite example is the wizard spell Frost Shield (I'm a wizard of course this is my favorite example :smileytongue: ).  For the 1 second cast time and 0.5 second recovery time, I can cast this damage shield, cross-raid, onto the MT.  If the damage shield procs 2/3 times before it expires, its good DPS you just added to the fight.  If the damage shield procs 3/3 times then its awesome dps (over 2k damage added to the fight for 1.5 seconds of the wizard's time).  Of course the MT is the one actually doing the damage (and also getting the hate from it), and it shows up that way in logs, and thus the parsers credit it to him. </p>

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xebarsis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tuppen wrote:<div>Trust me on this.  The warden tree doesn't have to get aggro to be killed by AoE damage.  Mine has died enough times in Scornfeathers Roost and Cazel's Mesa that I know this to be true.  It dies from AoE damage that my wolves do not die from.</div><hr>Precisely!The Pets can be killed by Barrage, which is a frontal AoE.  They are NOT, however, killed by Chilling Mist, or Flame of the Sun, or Venomous Cloud...or any of the TRUE AoE's that Epic mobs have.  Barrage is an AoE Combat Art, so it affects dumbfires.  The others are not combat arts per se.</blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Why should that make a difference though.  That's like saying a Mage spell AOE is not supposed to hit yet a Fighter/Scout melee AOE is fine to hit.  It should not matter what type of AOE it is as long as it is dealing damage.  It should hit as long as it is a damage dealing spell.<hr></blockquote>I agree with SalBluee.  For the consistency of the game I think all AEs should hit dumbfire pets.  It doesn't make sense that only some would.  If the result really hits dumbfire pet dependant classes hard then they should be adjusted in some way, for example maybe changing some pets back into dots.

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<div></div><p>We do not want our dumbfire pets downgraded back into dots, i love the visual sensation of having 5 pets out at a given time (3 swarm, 1 single, and main pet).</p><p>It makes summoners actually feel like sommoners, not just a nuke/dot class.</p><p>I stand by my saying that any and ALL dumbfire pets should not be subjegated to mob's AOE attacks unless directed at them.</p><p>It it utterly moronic to make a spell that, at one time, had a good role for a long duration encounter (raids/named heroics) to become more or less obsolete.</p><p>Here is another funny thing about Dumbfire pets vs dots or nuke... you CAN NOT improve their damage via intellegence.</p><p>In this respect, a level 60 conjuror in full fabled with 550+ intell would do the exact same damage using their fish and fireball pets as a level 60 conj in handcrafted with 150 intell...</p><p>So, how exactly is this overpowering? If they are going to make the dumbfire pets subjective to mob's AOE attacks on the group and raid, then they MUST let the group buffs effect the pets.</p><p>Would this be a fair pay off? possibly.... imagine a group of 5 summoners all using Scout-pets and summoned attack pets (total of 5 pets per summoner) and grouping with a dirge.... dirge's offensive buffs would all stack on the group's attack pets, and cacophony of blades on.....lets see.... 25 summoned minons? Interesting trade off indeed lol!</p><p> </p><p>So basically we have two options for all Dumbfire/swarm pets:</p><p>A) Allow them to be seperit from the group, therefore not being damage from AOE based attacks, but still able to be killed by ripose and barrage.</p><p>- or -</p><p>B) Allow them to be connected with the group, therefore being a viable target for AOE based attacks, but also gainning group's beneficial abilities.</p><p> </p><p>Either of these will work fine for me, but i for one know which will not be as unbalancing. Choice A.</p><p>Which ever the devs choose, they can not have a mix of the two.</p><p>Either the pets are part of the group, and thus reciving group wards, heals, buffs and other beneficial abilities as well as being targeted by AOE attacks, or they are not linked to the group, and therefore not subjegated to aoe damage targeted at the group.</p>

[armus5]

<div></div><p>Three days and still no respose from the devs. This is not meant to be a necro post, as some of you have figured out. This is a post for all classes. The most affected classes are necro and warden, though necro more than anyone. If you wish to talk dps, yes a necro beats a warlock on killing solo mobs. Thats because warlocks are AOE kings by deffinition. I've been in grps where a 60 necro's two highest AOEs hit and he did 1400 dps (on lvl 59s). I have done 1000 dps on a solo mab, it was a grey 45^^^ but there ya go.</p><p>I can do 1700 dps (this will get some posts) but anyone can, master strike a lvl16 orc and kill it in 1 hit. 1700 damage / one second = 1700 dps. DPS is a skrewed up scale folks. Parsers were never meant to indicate who's better than another. As I recall it was all about making sure someone wasn't slacking. There are too many veriables and killing mobs is not a competition between players.</p><p>This is not about necro dps and I ask you to not turn it into a argument for nerfs. All classes have dumbfires, though I don't think I've ever seen the warlocks use theres, and conjurer's fish rarely come out. But they will all be affected and this system-wide nerf needs to never happen.</p><p> </p>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<div></div>*shudder* parser faschists in raids

[Thakar]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xebarsis wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote:<div></div><p>Thats another great contribution.</p><p> </p><p>Where have you ever seen a necro doing 1000 dps in a raid? please enlighten us with your fantastic vision</p><hr></blockquote>People that do not understand how to read CombatStats think necro's and Conj's are getting close to, or over 1000dps.They don't get that...the lil number in parentheses, next to the summoner's name...that's PET DAMAGE.  It's added INTO the summoners total dmg, then ALSO broken down BELOW the summoner's name so you can see JUST what the pet is doing,BUT, they don't get this so...they see oh 690dps or so next to the Summoner, plus 300ish next to the pet and think...to add the two. They're counting the pet's dps twice.  Most of the full-master Summoners in my guild parse out at about 700ish, excluding huge groups like the PP:R trash mobs.  Huge groups like that are not accurate reflections of DPS on a raid target.While 700 may STILL be a little high for T2 dps, a nerf like this will drop them WAAAY down the parser.  Someone said earlier to learn to time swarm pets....with their casting time, timing the release of Swarms to coincide with AoE's would HURT dps more than help it.  The fact is, they're going to be cast once at the beginning of a fight, and probably never cast again.  It won't be worth wasting the nuking time to get ready and pulse swarms.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I know how to read CombatStats, and I've seen necro's and Conj's parse over 1000dps on raids.  These were non-named fights of x4 mobs in Silent City, the single mob encounters like the golems up top, the repulsers, and the lions.  How did they parse over 1000dps?  Well, we had an amazing aggro control setup for the MT group, and we had the proper classes to buff them and their pets well.  I'm a wizard and in the same fights I could get up to roughly 900dps, if I pushed it to the 1000dps mark I'd pull aggro and die, so it's not just the summoners that are capable of 1000dps.  (note: all these fights lasted over a minute)</p><p>My point is that it is meaningless when people throw out parse numbers for comparing DPS of different classes on raids.  Why?  Because the DPS is not all from themselves.  They'll have buffs from other classes that increase their DPS.  And finally, if one class hits the hate wall and another doesn't, they may be capable of the same DPS but it won't show up that way on parses.</p><hr></blockquote>I just thought I'd draw attention to the fact that these fights lasted over a minute...Sorcerers are the king of BURST DPS, NOT sustained DPS.  That's Necromancer/Conjuror territory.  When it comes to short fights, as a Necro, I can't beat Sorcerers...I usually can't even get close.  Of course a Summoner should be out DPSing a Sorcerer in long term fights, that's our big advantage...we can dish out a lot of damage over a long period of time instead of all at once.EDIT: Also...am I the only one who's a little confused as to why people want to nerf Summoners?  This isn't a PvP game, we aren't in direct competition here...</span></div><p>Message Edited by Thakar on <span class="date_text">01-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:53 PM</span></p>

[Za]

All I really want is some dev comment. Just a word on why this was "fixed" last year, and now its being "fixed" again now... It seems that there's some confusion on how things are supposed to work, and I'd just like to know what the "final" word os on the topic.

[Sir Alex]

<div></div>I agree with Thaka why are so many concerned with Necro/Conj and say they are overpowered and always calling for a nerf, i had said before dose it really matter who dose more damage on a raid or in group why do wizards and assassins get so upset if they get out dpsed by another class( and that dosent go for all wizards and assassins either) this is a game and i thought the idea of a game was to have fun not have class envy if you happen to get out damaged by another class anyways thats just my 2 cents

[Za]

Sorry Alex, your point isn't completely valid, but I understand what you mean.No, this isn't PvP, but it is a game where everyone that pays for it wants to see some symblance of equality or synergy across all classes. I agree 100% with that expectation as long as you don't micro-analyze it to death... Which is exactly what some people are doing here.If Necros could do things NO other class could do or even come close, That'd be a problem. If Necros died less often than any other class, or the risk/reward balance was majorly shifted opposite other classe, That'd be a problem.But as it stands, necros are a little ahead of the average class curve, and no better than the top classes. I don't see necros being any better as far as wizards, ranger, or warlocks go. The idea of tiered damage has turned some peoples brains to mush. Regardless, it's obvious that the perception about how powerful necros are is ALOT grander than the reality. Yes, Necros are fun to play, but not because they're all powerful, but becasue they have more flexibility than other classes... to me that should be the overall goal... to give all classes enough variance to keep them juicy... but no, necros-bots aren't soloing group x 4 encounters while afk.

[Gargamel]

<div>STILL waiting for a response...</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Za]

Maybe no one at SoE knows we care.

[kayahaze]

Well the way i see it Dumfire pets are DoTs and they should not die from AoEs. They are only good in Raids mostly and Necros start to truly shine also in Raids why? because thats what we are good at Damage Over Time.I spent many levels in many grps being mediocre or dying why? because i knew that truly necro class realy starts in lvl 50s and now im here i have a nerf that will hurt the class to look forward to.<span>:smileysad:</span>Also sorry but it saddens me to see other classes joining in a negative way, not sure why this happens on forums.Glad to say all class in my Guild agree that this is not a good nerf for full time raiding.Can we take the devs silence to mean an admission of this?<div></div>