Templars: Shut up, sit back and heal.

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>You know I am hearing alot more of this lately, well you are only a healer, you need to heal only.</DIV> <DIV>If this is the case then Templars need to be by far the best healers in the game then. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If other healing classes are going to be given the ability to solo at 2 and 3 times the speed of Templars and Templars have to give up any reasonable attempts to solo save gray/green then we need to be better healers by a factor of 2 or 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do not agree with that then you must be of the camp that infact Templars do need help in regards to buffs debuffs and Damage. Or you are not all that bright and think that things are balanced. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I guess the point is either we need are healing to be far superior of all healing classes (that wont happen SoE has stated it) or we need the other areas of our class improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had a Neon and a Ferrari here and was selling them for 50,000 each which would you choose? </DIV>

[Magu]

You do realize, of course, that posting the exact same thing over and over and over does nothing but break the forum rules and annoy devs/mods, right? Posting 2 dozen threads on the same issue will not make them change anything about your class. Keep it to one thread. <div></div>

[Cepheus80]

<DIV>I play an Inquisitor, i am a cleric also. Many templars, NOT ALL, seem to think they deserve to be on a pedestal. They think they should be the best because they choose what they thought would be the "best" healer. You guys associate templar with importance. "A templar should always be in the MT group because we have the most to offer." Its people who make these assumptions that make me question why you even started a templar in the first place. Do you play a templar because you like healing or do you play a templar because you enjoy the attention surrounding the whole holier than thou role? Do you seek importance? Do you expect to always be chosen before other healers when groups are formed? Maybe I'm overanalyzing the issue, but, from what i've experienced from templars who complain about their class, this is their thought pattern. Its people like this who, imo, play a healer for all the wrong reasons. You are not special. You play a healer, healing is your job. In EQ2 there are no "best" classes anymore. Guardians aren't the best tanks, they do well in general, yes...but in certain situations a paladin or monk could get the job done better. Warlocks can really crank out some dps...but only in certain situations. The same goes for any other dps class. Healing is not different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG> Cowdenicus </STRONG>wrote: if other healing classes are going to be given the ability to solo at 2 and 3 times the speed of Templars and Templars have to give up any reasonable attempts to solo save gray/green then we need to be better healers by a factor of 2 or 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do not agree with that then you must be of the camp that infact Templars do need help in regards to buffs debuffs and Damage. Or you are not all that bright and think that things are balanced.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Templars are in no way a [Removed for Content] healing class lol. You guys get some nice utility spells. They may not be in the form of debuffs or nukes, but your healing utility spells, for example, are VERY nice in group settings, especially on raids. Sanctuary is also a very powerful spell. Out of every other priest class, your lvl 55 ancient is the only one that does what its supposed to do, grats. This spell alone should be enough to secure yourself a position in almost any MT group. /clap</P> <P> </P>

[kenji]

do u feel something wrong as an inquistor can use their technique to deal out more HPS than a templar? and able to recover power faster than a templar?

[Cepheus80]

Do I feel something is "wrong"? No. Did I feel something was "wrong" before the combat change? No, I used my spells to the best of my abilites and did a decent job doing it from what others have said. I wasn't the one who came here and started complaining. You won't find one thread here or on any other board, by me, complaining about why my class is so terrible. I don't whine and complain, I make suggestions and deal with whatever issues I have to on my own to get the job done.

[kenji]

u dont care abt the class balance so what are u suggesting to us?

[Alevyan]

I do get annoyed when healers whine about the fact that they can't do damage. If you want to do damage, play a DPS.<div></div>

[Flor]

<DIV>Inquisitor here and like my class just fine.  Can heal fairly well and I enjoy the feeling of helping my group and keep people alive.  What better role is there?  I don't expect to dish out the DPS and that is fine with me.  Sometime's it frustrating but I've learned to deal with it.   Keeping my group alive through a tough encounter is really the end game for me.  I don't expect praise and people to grovel at my feet.  That is not why I play a healing class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certainly I have my frustrations.  I wish that my heals were a bit faster or that I could heal a bit more.  But I didn't play a healing class up to high levels before the CU#13 so I guess my expectations are a bit more realistic.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kenji]

if only dps class can dps, then erase all your inquisitor dmg proc / spell. and all non-dps class cant do dmg. so all happy? <DIV>i also feel annoyed that fury doing 3 times dps more than templar too. we are all priests.</DIV> <DIV>i am also annoyed a same skilled inquisitor can heal more than a same skilled templar, while inquisitor also doing more dmg / buffing more dps than a templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont whine a whiner (me), thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>01-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 PM</span>

[standupwookie]

You forget...at the release of the game, and well into the first year templars WERE the best healers in the game. The way armor was set up, along with parry, Templars had very good defense.  This aspect was completely taken away at the Combat Revamp.  In fact, Heavy armor does nothing for Templars.  They are probably better off in Leather. Reactive heals were the best heals, simply because Guardians WERE the best tanks, and they work best with reactive healing.  True, there was an aggro problem with reactives that gave the receiver the aggro, not the caster....which made Templars (and any reactive caster) even better. Templars were fine not being able to solo anything fast...that was seen as the trade off between being the absolute BEST healer.  Inquisitors were great healers too, along with their stifles. Then the combat changes, /con changes...and now Templars are the worst class in the game.  I started this game as a Templar because I knew at the time I would be the best healer.  Heavy armor meant I was going to get hit, but I could survive because I had some sort of parry. I deleted that character simply because it wasnt any fun to play a Templar.  SUW

[DysonWakes]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alevyan wrote:<BR>I do get annoyed when healers whine about the fact that they can't do damage. If you want to do damage, play a DPS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So you get annoyed when a class you don't play wants a wee bit of balance? I get annoyed when people who haven't played this gimped class <DIV>post about how we shouldn't complain about it being gimped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI - If you want to give advice at least give good advice like "If you want to be a healer AND do damage play a Fury"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xecr]

<blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:Templars: Shut up, sit back and heal.<hr></blockquote>So uhhh, when are you going to shut up?!

[Dunkeltrae]

Looks like he wants a class that can do dmg and heal... but he choose a Templar... Beside that Healing and DPS can make you kinda uber and has nothing to to with balancing. How bout this: for every point of DPS we cut your healing for 2 Points. So you'll have an outweighted class that can do both and would make the templar something like another class. I bet you will whine again.Or we just make the best "balancing" ever. Only the classname is different and of course the names of the abilities but in the end they do the same. Would be balanced huh? XD<div></div>

[Ama]

Well i'm not a templar by trade most I have is a 14 cleric but from what I see and what I can say is you guys kind of got nocked off your high horse.  The devs kept preaching equality through classes in some form or another and thats what they did to you.  As to how they did it I don't know be it spells, mitigation, buffs, etc... . As a druid I was royally angry with the combat upgrade because alot had been taken away.  I was so angry infact that I did not help beta test except report bugs here and there never engaging in combat because we were so messed up.  We had been stripped down, messed with, tweaked, punch, bruised and beaten to our core.  All our usual spells had been stripped leaving a few things for us to tinker with.  However over time we got our ability back and reclaimed somewhat of what we once lost.  Before some much needed changes of the patchs after the CU my warden could heal for a max of 300 to 315 points of health with a small HoT of 20 to 30 points per tick.  However after the patchs and an upgrade to adept III he can heal for 544 with near 75 HoT.  Again i'm use to healing and curing anomalys at the same time but *shrug*.  What i'm getting at is templars are broken but you'll get fixed eventually be it healing potential, mitigation wise, or buff wise. 

[KBern]

<P>You know, it could be a matter of perspective on both sides but it seems the most complaints come from Templars and Guardians still.</P> <P>The two of the most overpowered classes pre-CU13.  </P> <P>So are they really that bad off or do the people playing them just feel that way since they were so freakin overpowered previously?</P> <P>Of course when you balance, the two poles will be affected the most....some brought down, and others brought up, and the two that were on the uber pole are the ones making the "we are useless" posts now.</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dunkeltraene wrote:<BR>Looks like he wants a class that can do dmg and heal... but he choose a Templar... Beside that Healing and DPS can make you kinda uber and has nothing to to with balancing. How bout this: for every point of DPS we cut your healing for 2 Points. So you'll have an outweighted class that can do both and would make the templar something like another class. I bet you will whine again.<BR><BR>Or we just make the best "balancing" ever. Only the classname is different and of course the names of the abilities but in the end they do the same. Would be balanced huh? XD<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is an example of a person who knows *nothing* about the subject being discussed but just wants to chime in anyway with demeaning remarks.</P> <P>This is a discussion of balance BETWEEN priest classes. It doesn't affect non-priests at all. As a Swashbuckler, I'm not sure how you have the experience to comment on it. But since you felt like chiming in, here are some facts for you.</P> <P>Pre-LU13, TEMPLARS healed far better than FURIES, and FURIES did far more DPS and had better utility than TEMPLARS. It was essentially balanced. We are talking balanced between priest classes, not between archetypes, ok?</P> <P>In LU13/15, SoE boosted the healing of non-Templars and nerfed the healing of Templars, resulting in the express purpose (posted by SoE devs themselves) of making TEMPLARS and FURIES (and all other priests) heal about equally to eachother. However, they did not equalize all the other aspects of priest play. This means today, FURIES still have 3X the DPS and far better utility than TEMPLARS, whilst being equal at healing.</P> <P>This leaves many Templars feeling weak and pointless compared to Furies (well, compared to both Druid classes in the main), and as a result, there is mass complaiing, quitting, re-rolling, etc, and a lot of unhappy players. The most badly hit are the casual playstyle players, as there is now zero reason any educated group would ever take a Templar if they could get a Fury. Which is why I felt FORCED to re-roll as a Fury. This is just plain wrong and needs fixing.</P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>You know, it could be a matter of perspective on both sides but it seems the most complaints come from Templars and Guardians still.</P> <P>The two of the <FONT color=#ff0000>most overpowered classes</FONT> pre-CU13. </P> <P>So are they really that bad off or do the people playing them just feel that way since they were <FONT color=#ff0000>so freakin overpowered</FONT> previously?</P> <P>Of course when you balance, the two poles will be affected the most....some brought down, and others brought up, and the two that were on the uber pole are the ones making the "we are useless" posts now.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And yet more of the same, from yet another non-Templar player who wants to chime in. We were not overpowered. We had horrendous weaknesses terrible DPS, lack of solo power, and no utility of value), balanced by being the BEST healers, and it was worth it. Taking away the healing advantage and LEAVING US JUST ACROSS THE BOARD WEAKER in edvery other area is creating a dead class for non-hardcore players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now please, play a Templar and a Fury yourself to tier 6 and find out the facts yourself, like I have, or leave those of us who actually have a clue what we are talking about to present the issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [54 Templar] ... sitting idle due to feeling like an XP leech now in groups</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [56 Fury] ... far more powerful than any Templar can be, and that is not balance.<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 PM</span>

[rollando]

<DIV> The fact is, the players are balancing the situation by themselves. Just try  /who all priest 20 50 and /who all fury 20 50 on your servers... </DIV> <DIV> In my family guild, all templars have more or less given up and rerolled another toon - often a fury, sometimes a DPS oriented class. No ex-templar considers replaying his / her old toon.</DIV> <DIV><BR> Templars were well suited to the everyday EQ2 gameplay when the game launched, because large groups were the rule. The game has changed alot though, with the addition of much solo / small group content. This evolution is certainly a good thing, but has made templars obsolete in most situations. ( Maybe high-end raiding guilds still need one templar in their MT tank, but that's all ) <BR><BR> The reason why templars are extremely frustrated is that they are locked out of some of the recent content ( several DoF quest lines require TIMED SOLO ONLY instances ), and, even when they can complete such content, it takes such a long boring time that they don't do it anyways.</DIV> <DIV><BR> Small group content is affected in the same way. The terrorgore quest ( in the Court of Truth quest line ) requires several times to kill 20-40 easy mobs ( 30 solo orcs in Clefts for example ) over a shortish period of time. These quest steps are very easy for most duos .... as long as they do not have a templar. So, why lock a specific class out most of the quest content ? Honestly, I do not think this is intended - even if very few templars do believe it's fine :smileysad:. So, this needs to be fixed, and many templars ( or ex-templars ! ) will keep asking for that fix.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Forgive my spelling / grammar mistakes, since English isn't my native language...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by rollando on <SPAN class=date_text>01-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by rollando on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alevyan wrote:<BR>I do get annoyed when healers whine about the fact that they can't do damage. If you want to do damage, play a DPS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think some folks are confused as to why Templars ask for rmore DPS. From what I have read (and I have read alot), Most are not referring to groups or raids.. They want the additional DPS for soloing as some Temps solo alot. I do agree A healing class's main role is to heal (Obviously) but most folks dont raid/group all the time. Soloing is a big part of some people's play style.<BR>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dunkeltraene wrote:<BR>Looks like he wants a class that can do dmg and heal... but he choose a Templar... Beside that Healing and DPS can make you kinda uber and has nothing to to with balancing. How bout this: for every point of DPS we cut your healing for 2 Points. So you'll have an outweighted class that can do both and would make the templar something like another class. I bet you will whine again.<BR><BR>Or we just make the best "balancing" ever. Only the classname is different and of course the names of the abilities but in the end they do the same. Would be balanced huh? XD<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is an example of a person who knows *nothing* about the subject being discussed but just wants to chime in anyway with demeaning remarks.</P> <P>This is a discussion of balance BETWEEN priest classes. It doesn't affect non-priests at all. As a Swashbuckler, I'm not sure how you have the experience to comment on it. But since you felt like chiming in, here are some facts for you.</P> <P>Pre-LU13, TEMPLARS healed far better than FURIES, and FURIES did far more DPS and had better utility than TEMPLARS. It was essentially balanced. We are talking balanced between priest classes, not between archetypes, ok?</P> <P>In LU13/15, SoE boosted the healing of non-Templars and nerfed the healing of Templars, resulting in the express purpose (posted by SoE devs themselves) of making TEMPLARS and FURIES (and all other priests) heal about equally to eachother. However, they did not equalize all the other aspects of priest play. This means today, FURIES still have 3X the DPS and far better utility than TEMPLARS, whilst being equal at healing.</P> <P>This leaves many Templars feeling weak and pointless compared to Furies (well, compared to both Druid classes in the main), and as a result, there is mass complaiing, quitting, re-rolling, etc, and a lot of unhappy players. The most badly hit are the casual playstyle players, as there is now zero reason any educated group would ever take a Templar if they could get a Fury. Which is why I felt FORCED to re-roll as a Fury. This is just plain wrong and needs fixing.</P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>You know, it could be a matter of perspective on both sides but it seems the most complaints come from Templars and Guardians still.</P> <P>The two of the <FONT color=#ff0000>most overpowered classes</FONT> pre-CU13. </P> <P>So are they really that bad off or do the people playing them just feel that way since they were <FONT color=#ff0000>so freakin overpowered</FONT> previously?</P> <P>Of course when you balance, the two poles will be affected the most....some brought down, and others brought up, and the two that were on the uber pole are the ones making the "we are useless" posts now.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And yet more of the same, from yet another non-Templar player who wants to chime in. We were not overpowered. We had horrendous weaknesses terrible DPS, lack of solo power, and no utility of value), balanced by being the BEST healers, and it was worth it. Taking away the healing advantage and LEAVING US JUST ACROSS THE BOARD WEAKER in edvery other area is creating a dead class for non-hardcore players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now please, play a Templar and a Fury yourself to tier 6 and find out the facts yourself, like I have, or leave those of us who actually have a clue what we are talking about to present the issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [54 Templar] ... sitting idle due to feeling like an XP leech now in groups</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [56 Fury] ... far more powerful than any Templar can be, and that is not balance.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>01-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes I am sorry...I have no clue of what I speak of...my bad....tamplars and guardians were not overpowere pre-lu13...they were doing just fine.</P> <P>That is one reason why many dont take your type of complaints seriously when you cant even admit well known facts about the game previously.  </P> <P>Guardians were THE tank....templars were THE healer....and that was one of the reasons why the CU was made, to balance classes.</P> <P>Could the changes be overboard...maybe...but were you overpowered previously....definately.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Flor]

<DIV>I have one more comment/question on this topic.  I'm a bit curious about how inquisitor's fit into this debate?  I assume that our class would have some of the same concerns as the templar class?  I think that I have seen a total of 1-2 inquisitors so I assume that our class falls into the same category of being a bit broken as well?  Just not a very popular class so I assume that the class has similar problems although I'm having a blast playing her.  At least I'm the only inquisitor in my guild so I get all the spell books.  Plus I have been picking up master spells on my server for very reasonable prices (20-30g price range)....:smileywink:  It is kinda nice being unique.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can really symphatize with templars/guardians/etc since the CU#13.  My regular grouping buddies both played guardian and templars as their mains.  They were so disillusioned after CU#13 that they canceled their accounts and moved over to WoW.  </DIV>

[Cuz]

What's the casting time and recast time on the single target mez, group mez, and Sanctuary?

[Zunnoab]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>In LU13/15, SoE boosted the healing of non-Templars and nerfed the healing of Templars, resulting in the express purpose (posted by SoE devs themselves) of making TEMPLARS and FURIES (and all other priests) heal about equally to eachother. However, they did not equalize all the other aspects of priest play. This means today, FURIES still have 3X the DPS and far better utility than TEMPLARS, whilst being equal at healing.</P> <P>This leaves many Templars feeling weak and pointless compared to Furies (well, compared to both Druid classes in the main), and as a result, there is mass complaiing, quitting, re-rolling, etc, and a lot of unhappy players.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is it exactly.  I do not want to see furies nerfed, but why they have the same heal power and 3x the dps? That doesn't make sense.  Wouldn't dps classes be complaining if say a Brigand had 3x the dps of the Swashbuckler but nothing else to compensate?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I say if the furies are allowed to have that kind of burst dps while retaining heal power, Templars (and Mystics even though I don't know where they stand on the issue) are entitled to it too.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why should our healing be nerfed and their healing be raised while leaving the imbalance in dps in place?  Again I don't want to see furies nuked but I'm sorry seeing someone that can heal as well as me chop down mobs in no time flat compared to me I can't help but think..... why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the utility argument goes... it just doesn't hold a candle to the now high dps nature of the game.  If furies have far less utility (which I really don't know anything about) that would be a problem.  3x the dps though?  That has nothing at all to do with utility.  The archetypes are supposed to act differently but equally... currently there is an obvious dps gap.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zunnoab on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Floria wrote:  <div>I can really symphatize with templars/guardians/etc since the CU#13.  My regular grouping buddies both played guardian and templars as their mains.  They were so disillusioned after CU#13 that they canceled their accounts and moved over to WoW.  </div><hr></blockquote>Yes. Not being uber anymore must really hurt. /yawn</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Yes I am sorry...I have no clue of what I speak of...my bad....tamplars and guardians were not overpowere pre-lu13...they were doing just fine.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Correct. You clearly do not.</FONT></P> <P>That is one reason why many dont take your type of complaints seriously when you cant even admit well known facts about the game previously. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Sure, we, the experienced and long term players of the classes concerned, do not have the facts, whereas the players of other archetypes who know nothing about our class are suddenly preaching the "facts". Oh the irony. How about I "announce" to you that Swashbucklers have always been overpowered, and need nerfing now, and if you disagree, you are wrong? ((To everyone else, no, I do not mean that, I am making a point as to how in the clouds this poster is being)).</FONT></P> <P>Guardians were THE tank....templars were THE healer....and that was one of the reasons why the CU was made, to balance classes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I won't comment on tanks, as I do not play one. For priests, yes of course Templars were the BEST healer, DUH! I mean, why do you think we also had the worst DPS and utility to balance it? Oh yes, you don't play one, so you ... don't know what its like to play one from level 1 into tier 6, do you? We do actually need to do things you know, like other players, including solo quests and the like. We are not happy being pathetic weaklings out of groups compared to Druidic priests when all we are in them is average same-as-all-other-priests healers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for that being the reason for the LU, well no, the reasons for the LU in the first place were more wide-reaching than trying to "nerf" a couple of classes. I won't go into the details (and infact, noone knows the fine details as SoE didn't publish them), but it has been proven since that this concept of "all healers must heal for the same" was il-conceived if not also accompanied by "all healers must be balanced with eachother in areas other than healing" at the same time.</FONT></P> <P>Could the changes be overboard...maybe...but were you overpowered previously....definately.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No, again, you are misinformed, we were not, and thats the view from someone who knows, and the common knowledge of the overwhelming majority of casual playstyle Templars.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The changes only did HALF of a balanced change. If Healing is to be made equal (something I never saw the need for, but that is an aside), then DPS/Utility must also be made essentially equal too. If you cannot grasp that very simple argument as being basically fair and logical, there is no point taking any notice of you.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It <U>will</U> be corrected eventually, with enough feedback from enough unhappy customers, because it must be, as it hurts the game as a whole to have such marked imbalance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zunnoab wrote: <div>This is it exactly.  I do not want to see furies nerfed, but why they have the same heal power and 3x the dps? That doesn't make sense.  Wouldn't dps classes be complaining if say a Brigand had 3x the dps of the Swashbuckler but nothing else to compensate?</div><hr></blockquote>What you are doing is comparing 2 subclasses. </span><span>You can compare it to summoners and sorcerers (or assassins), where summoners can do a lot more dps while having all the utility the pets provide. I could make 1000's of whine posts about how unfair that is and how useless i am, like certain templars do, if i was jsut as obsessed about how other classes are as them. </span><div></div>

[Mabes]

<P>Our utility abilities aren't nearly enough compensation for huge dps that furies have.  I still play my templar, but it's horribly painful to solo.  And to answer what our stun and mezz cast times are (this is off the top of my head, so it might not be totally correct):</P> <P>Stun: 3 sec cast, 45 sec recast</P> <P>Pacify: 2 sec cast, 20 sec recast</P> <P>Group Pacify: 1 sec cast, 15 minute recast</P>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC. <blockquote><div></div><font color="#ffffff">I won't comment on tanks, as I do not play one. For priests, yes of course Templars were the BEST healer, DUH! I mean, why do you think we also had the worst DPS and utility to balance it? Oh yes, you don't play one, so you ... don't know what its like to play one from level 1 into tier 6, do you? We do actually need to do things you know, like other players, including solo quests and the like. We are not happy being pathetic weaklings out of groups compared to Druidic priests when all we are in them is average same-as-all-other-priests healers.<font color="#ffff66">They where not meant to be the best healers. Every priest should've been able to heal a group equally, which obviously wasn't the case. </font></font><font color="#ffff66"><span>This wasn't the case because of errors made by soe, not because druids could dps more.</span></font> <p><font color="#ffffff">As for that being the reason for the LU, well no, the reasons for the LU in the first place were more wide-reaching than trying to "nerf" a couple of classes. I won't go into the details (and infact, noone knows the fine details as SoE didn't publish them), but it has been proven since that <font color="#ffffcc">this concept of "all healers must heal for the same" </font>was il-conceived if not also accompanied by "all healers must be balanced with eachother in areas other than healing" at the same time.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ffff66">That concept wasn't "new" though, in beta soe said that all priests should be able to heal equally.</font></font></p><p><i>Could the changes be overboard...maybe...but were you overpowered previously....definately.</i></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">No, again, you are misinformed, we were not, and thats the view from someone who knows, and the common knowledge of the overwhelming majority of casual playstyle Templars.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff66">Easy to say when you play that overpowered class. This is like guardians saying they wheren't overpowered.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">The changes only did HALF of a balanced change. If Healing is to be made equal (something I never saw the need for, but that is an aside), <font color="#ffffcc">then DPS/Utility must also be made essentially equal too</font>. If you cannot grasp that very simple argument as being basically fair and logical, there is no point taking any notice of you.</font></p><p></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ffff66">If one class (druids) has something extra compared to the other class (clerics) should have something to counter that. You can still do your primary job in groups easily, would hardly call that broken. Small imbalances like this are in all archetypes.</font></font></p><hr> </blockquote> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Oll]

<DIV>Don't just generalise druids ... wardens are cut out too of the fury boost of LU13.</DIV> <DIV>True, now wardens can do much better, but templar and furies can still deal better with burst damage. If a group was looking at warden, fury or templar, they would NOT choose the warden. Furies can do all that a warden does and more! (dps). The whole offensive/defensive healer thing is a load of crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In regard to the templar issue, it is true that to solo they do need more dps. But they should NOT be complaining about their utility, their debuffs or their healing. As I say, templars are preferred to wardens, they can heal better, especially in raids - fact. Warden and even fury utility is overrated .. templars get pacify lines, proc healing, sanctuary, odyssey (cancels out evac and group invis argument <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), and debuffs, well, wardens I know do not get any direct debuffs (bar the priest one) - templars get mark of line and another mitigation debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the next line will get me flamed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - furies are overpowered. Don't know if that is right word, call it unbalanced, whatever. At least in regards to dps. They can heal better than my warden and as well as my templar, as well as doing a lot of dps. My main is warden, and fury trumps us in both offensive and defensive .... I want equality there. Fury - templar ... well, as is said fury is a lot better at soloing, although templars are probably better in utility/debuffs. I still do not see how templar feel like the world is ending?? They have a lot going for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, I'm tired, the server is down, and that little rant probably had little relevance <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and hell I'm probably wrong in some places, feel free to correct me lol ... but I will repeat, templars only need a small dps boost and they have absolutely nothing to be worried about!</DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV>Pure classes should always have an edge over the mixed classes. That is how it has been in every game I have played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a jack of all trades and master of none then play a fury.</DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a pure healing/buffing class with minimal dps then play a templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of right now... furies are the jack of all trades and masters of everything. Thats not right. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not a fan of giving templars more dps. I would hope that they would leave the dps as is and give us another really nice buff or 2 that is unique to the templars since our ancient spells are garbage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one am making my statement with my wallet since my account is cancled and will be closed on the 16th of this month. I hope SOE wises up before they make another mess like SWG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Alevyan wrote:I do get annoyed when healers whine about the fact that they can't do damage. If you want to do damage, play a DPS.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Does this mean you want to nerf furies? Or what exactly are you whining about?</span><div></div>

[Dunkeltrae]

Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about rrrrrrrrrrright. Do you? No you don't.You compare two subclasses:Cleric (Templar) and Druid (Fury). Look up the definitions of a Cleric and a Druid please. Maybe the origin of both is priest but that won't matter cause IF it would you would need to pick up the Mystic too (another Priest Class). You speak of the templars feeling weak against Furies boohoohoo. What about Mystics?If you want them balance them in DPS and healing (and after that in armor/parry too I guess) SoE could just throw over the class-system like they did in SWG and you only have 4 classes left. One that heals, one that tanks, one that debuffs and one that does DMG. How bout it? Sounds boring imho.Another note: Yes, I'm a Swashie. And? I was nerfed a while ago too cause of some uberness. Thinking it your way I would now have to throw me, a Troubadour and an Assasin into one pot. Hell yeah, I could complain alot. Want an example? Brigands have (if rightly played) nearly the same dmg output as a Swashie (not bursting the dmg out though). They have one more stun (or even 2) and MUCH higher debuffs and are not affected by AEs (if not directed at them). These are just examples not complaints. Still I play(ed) a Swashie (I quit the game some days ago) and not a Brigand and was proud of it.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:<span>What you are doing is comparing 2 subclasses. </span><span>You can compare it to summoners and sorcerers (or assassins), where summoners can do a lot more dps while having all the utility the pets provide. I could make 1000's of whine posts about how unfair that is and how useless i am, like certain templars do, if i was jsut as obsessed about how other classes are as them. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That is BS. What we are doing is comparing wizard to a warlock. You forgot, all priests are in the same tier in healing. So, the example requires comparing two classes that should do equal DPS. We should be equal healing and since that means all priests will heal the same, there is no balance in letting some priests to be in different DPS tier than others. In fact, all priest classes should have the same DPS since everything else is practically the same. Consider class balance between priests to be same like class balance with warlocks. Some warlocks would get 2x the DPS as others just because of random chance bug (Yes, all priests really are close to the same when it comes to healing so there could be just one priest class and no one would notice it in healing). </span><div></div>

[Asp728]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Alevyan wrote:<BR>I do get annoyed when healers whine about the fact that they can't do damage. If you want to do damage, play a DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Does this mean you want to nerf furies? Or what exactly are you whining about?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This post was started by a Templar whining about DPS.  Not a Fury.  There aren't furies whining about doing more DPS.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dunkeltraene wrote:Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about rrrrrrrrrrright. Do you? No you don't.You compare two subclasses:Cleric (Templar) and Druid (Fury). Look up the definitions of a Cleric and a Druid please. Maybe the origin of both is priest but that won't matter cause IF it would you would need to pick up the Mystic too (another Priest Class). You speak of the templars feeling weak against Furies boohoohoo. What about Mystics? <hr></blockquote>Since those definitions are incorrect, there is no reason to look at them. Templars are not the defensive healers mentioned there. We have no defensive utility that would make us better healers than offensive healers are. But offensive furies have offense that really makes them far better class than defensive classes.</span><div></div>

[ke'la]

<DIV>Templars have to give up any reasonable attempts to solo save gray/green then we need to be better healers by a factor of 2 or 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Fact that those grey/greens your talking about are HEROICS I have no problem with it(the 5 or 6 Templares in my guild(many near or at 60)) say they have no problem soloing low green Heroics. If you can't solo upto white/yellow solos maybe you need to check your Tactics/spells/gear. Now if your talking about your ablity to solo fast... I am sorry you choose the most Group Centric Class of a Group Centric Architype as such your ablity to solo Fast suffers compaired to others in your Architype(the same thing goes for Chanters, Bards, and Guardians). </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>ke'la wrote:<div>Templars have to give up any reasonable attempts to solo save gray/green then we need to be better healers by a factor of 2 or 3.</div> <div> </div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div>The Fact that those grey/greens your talking about are HEROICS I have no problem with it(the 5 or 6 Templares in my guild(many near or at 60)) say they have no problem soloing low green Heroics. If you can't solo upto white/yellow solos maybe you need to check your Tactics/spells/gear. Now if your talking about your ablity to solo fast... I am sorry you choose the most Group Centric Class of a Group Centric Architype as such your ablity to solo Fast suffers compaired to others in your Architype(the same thing goes for Chanters, Bards, and Guardians). </div><hr></blockquote>Most group centric? No, almost all other priests give more to a group than templars. But templars are most dependant on group since they need a group to do quests, not all priests do. Also groups dont need templars since any priest will do.</span><div></div>

[ke'la]

<P>Then why is it that one every Instance run with the same players other then swaping a Temp for a Furry. The Instance runs go FAR better with the Templar?</P> <P>BTW they also have stated that ALL Mages should be on the same Tier DPS wise(so saying your compairing Conjoreers to Wizzies is apporperate). BTW guess what proporly played a Conjoreer propbly could out DPS a Wizzy in certain Siduations(cold resists anyone). I have an Illusionist and (in a group) I can provide almost equivalant DPS at the other mages(though my Utility suffers as I can only cast one spell at a time), BTW same is true of all classes, if your healing you can not dps, and therefor if your in a hot and heavy group the Furries DPS is usless as guess what THEY BETTER NOT BE CASTING IT!!!</P> <P>Oh and I am sorry when Pre-LU13 groups did an OOC and I qoute "XP group LF Templare" or when they say looking for Healer they Ment Templar, or when groups did not know that Shammy, Druid, and evil clerics where even healers I would say that Templar(IN A GROUP SIDUATION) was over powered.(BTW yes I agree Temps and Guards both do need a small DPS boost).</P> <P>Lastly, In a Raid I shure as heck want a Templar in the MT group(hell my guild Looter(AKA Raid leader is a Templar).</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>ke'la wrote:<p>Then why is it that one every Instance run with the same players other then swaping a Temp for a Furry. The Instance runs go FAR better with the Templar? </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">My experiences are almost the opposite. Why is that?</font> </p> <p>BTW they also have stated that ALL Mages should be on the same Tier DPS wise(so saying your compairing Conjoreers to Wizzies is apporperate). BTW guess what proporly played a Conjoreer propbly could out DPS a Wizzy in certain Siduations(cold resists anyone). I have an Illusionist and (in a group) I can provide almost equivalant DPS at the other mages(though my Utility suffers as I can only cast one spell at a time), BTW same is true of all classes, if your healing you can not dps, and therefor if your in a hot and heavy group the Furries DPS is usless as guess what THEY BETTER NOT BE CASTING IT!!! </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Why not? Since they DO have the time. Templars are waiting for recasts very often and so are other priests, are you demanding people not to use their full potential?</font> </p> <p>Oh and I am sorry when Pre-LU13 groups did an OOC and I qoute "XP group LF Templare" or when they say looking for Healer they Ment Templar, or when groups did not know that Shammy, Druid, and evil clerics where even healers I would say that Templar(IN A GROUP SIDUATION) was over powered.(BTW yes I agree Temps and Guards both do need a small DPS boost). </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Small is not the word I would use. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Now look at brawlers and guardians. The DPS difference is comparable to fury vs. cleric. But also brawlers really aren't as good tanks as guardians are even though brawlers can tank through most content. But then again, crusaders and zerkers are close enough and do a lot more DPS. So guards should be buffed to do roughly crusader DPS. But with fury vs. cleric, there is no such difference in the ability to keep the MT alive, so there is no justification for the DPS difference either. In fact, the difference in group healing should mean that in order to get balance, clerics should do MORE DPS than furies. This is after the fact that templars will not get more healing (and druid healing wont be nerfed) due to encounter balance. </font></p> <p>Lastly, In a Raid I shure as heck want a Templar in the MT group(hell my guild Looter(AKA Raid leader is a Templar).</p> <div></div><font color="#ffff00">Of course, every raid wants one cleris for MT. But every raid needs a druid to take care of AE damage for each group.</font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mabes wrote:<BR> <P>Our utility abilities aren't nearly enough compensation for huge dps that furies have.  I still play my templar, but it's horribly painful to solo.  And to answer what our stun and mezz cast times are (this is off the top of my head, so it might not be totally correct):</P> <P>Stun: 3 sec cast, 45 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P>Pacify: 2 sec cast, 20 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I know I'm getting demanding, but do you know the duration of these two?</FONT></P> <P>Group Pacify: 1 sec cast, 15 minute recast</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The recast could easily be cut by 1/3. And then again by half.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Mabes]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mabes wrote:<BR> <P>Our utility abilities aren't nearly enough compensation for huge dps that furies have.  I still play my templar, but it's horribly painful to solo.  And to answer what our stun and mezz cast times are (this is off the top of my head, so it might not be totally correct):</P> <P>Stun: 3 sec cast, 45 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P>Pacify: 2 sec cast, 20 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I know I'm getting demanding, but do you know the duration of these two?</FONT></P> <P>Group Pacify: 1 sec cast, 15 minute recast</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The recast could easily be cut by 1/3. And then again by half.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Stun has a duration of 8 secs, pacify 16 secs, again, those are off the top of my head, so I may be off by a second.  As far as usefulness of those spells, the stun is quite nice, and pacify's good for pulling when solo'ing, and is good to hold off an add as long as the group members are aware to not attack it.  Although the group pacify has such a long recast timer, I only use it for when I get aggro and the tank can't get it back.<BR>

[Dragonz]

<P>I also quit playing my templar, I teamed in same 6 group from 20- 50 we  did al the hq's, ventured far and wide and generally had a hoot.</P> <P>If I wanted to solo ,yes it was slow but possible , with the buffs,debuffs and smites, undead were a naural target and could be solo's at a reasonable speed.</P> <P>Now we are supposed to be holy healers, so why have the debuffs, buffs  been changed to physical, thats I think my main issue.</P> <P>My templar lvl 52  in full cobalt with ironwood club and shield is still outdamaged by my 44 fury, so I have some knowledge of both</P> <P>I made a conjurer after being fed up with playing templar and he raced to lvl 60, infact he's the reason I can get such good gear on my  other toons.</P> <P>MY paladin Is a holy  warrior  and still does  devine buffs/debuffs/procs  so I can't understand reasoning behind templar changes.</P> <P>No  this is not a whine that  I been nerfed  or been knocked oof my pedesal( if I'd tried to do that my guildies would have pulled it from underneathe me and battered me with it)</P> <P>As some one mentioned in dof there are timed solo encounters that need doing to further quest updates so we should have a reasonable chance to do them.</P> <P>As for being uber healers  over other priests can't agree, one of my team mates played a mystic and we complimented each other , at no time did  I feel superior healer to her, we each played our role in keeping grooup on its it feet and succeeded most of the time</P> <P>I do think templars did    get a rough deal, but I still play  her to the best of my abiltity and in groups stil have fun and find myself useful.</P> <P>As for only use is in Mt group in raids not even sure if thats valid anymore, with glory of combat, we tried me in  melee dps group, tbh never had to heal group even when they got aggro as  proc on ranger and zeker was going off like a firework display, leaving me  free to heal mt from outside group</P> <P>To sum it up all I really want is to know the reasoning behind changes </P> <P> </P>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mabes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mabes wrote:<BR> <P>Our utility abilities aren't nearly enough compensation for huge dps that furies have.  I still play my templar, but it's horribly painful to solo.  And to answer what our stun and mezz cast times are (this is off the top of my head, so it might not be totally correct):</P> <P>Stun: 3 sec cast, 45 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P>Pacify: 2 sec cast, 20 sec recast <FONT color=#ff0000><-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I know I'm getting demanding, but do you know the duration of these two?</FONT></P> <P>Group Pacify: 1 sec cast, 15 minute recast</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The recast could easily be cut by 1/3. And then again by half.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Stun has a duration of 8 secs, pacify 16 secs, again, those are off the top of my head, so I may be off by a second.  As far as usefulness of those spells, the stun is quite nice, and pacify's good for pulling when solo'ing, and is good to hold off an add as long as the group members are aware to not attack it.  Although the group pacify has such a long recast timer, I only use it for when I get aggro and the tank can't get it back.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thanks for the quick answers. If you time your stun and the mezz right, you can almost keep the mob completely out of the picture. Of course this is useless in raids (just ask the chanters), and won't help you solo faster (just safer). I still find it an interesting ability though.</DIV>

[Beerserker]

<P>Well the more SoE nerf us the more ppl will get bored and quit. Whats the point of starting a new toon if you know sooner or later SoE might just nerf say like 50% to your CA's and DPS. Well it happened to "some" scout class and it can happen to your class too. I have two toons which are nerfed lol. 60 Templar and 60 Swash lol, yea the two big nerfed toons lol. I dont see a point on leveling another toon, all i see is nerf this and that then make us happy again with a little upgrade. If the new xpac "Kingdom of sky" (leaked because SoE most likely wanted us to stay and play) and new PvP server dont satisfy my taste for a good MMO then what good are you to me SoE lol.</P> <P>To you SoE: there is a saying from EQ fans: "there will always be eq fans" but i say there will always be fans but it grows thin.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ke'la wrote:<BR> <DIV>Templars have to give up any reasonable attempts to solo save gray/green then we need to be better healers by a factor of 2 or 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Fact that those grey/greens your talking about are HEROICS I have no problem with it(the 5 or 6 Templares in my guild(many near or at 60)) say they have no problem soloing low green Heroics. If you can't solo upto white/yellow solos maybe you need to check your Tactics/spells/gear. Now if your talking about your ablity to solo fast... I am sorry you choose the most Group Centric Class of a Group Centric Architype as such your ablity to solo Fast suffers compaired to others in your Architype(the same thing goes for Chanters, Bards, and Guardians). </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>YOu are correct, my gear is crap, Toon name is Xlrate everfrost server look it up.

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Shutting thread down, it's only purpose was to incite the community.</DIV>