Up mob's hp and Lower there dp's

[Giral]

<DIV>hear is My idea to get Tank's back in their rightful place   :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Soe Need's to UP mob's Hit Point's Reduce Mob's  Damge output so the Fight's LAst Longer what does this accomplish ?</P> <P>Mage's will go OOP tryin to Burn the MOb's down = Down time waiting for regain If they Succed in winning equal same as tank's now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Healer's will Go OOP trying to Heal Weak UNtank classes = Group's will wipe Without an MT on anything that should require MT's for Like Group's of ^^ Yellow's to Orange^^ , Herioc group's no arrow's orange mob's ETc...............</P> <P>and Rogue classe's would still have a chance to fill in for Mt's on these lesser encounter's example : White ^^^  and group's of Yellow No arrow's  it would still be very challenging BUT you'd need a real   MT against Orange ^^^ mob's Orange No arrow Mob's yellow ^^^ mob's </P> <P>The above example is a not perfect but if they just Lower mob's dp's and raise there Max HP it would make a HUGE diffrence in how game play's in live now and the Need for MT's to actually fill thier roll's               </P> <P>Mob's die way to fast , tank's Taunt's Suck their power consuption suck's thier power regain suck's and by the time you would have regained Agro the mob is dead 90 % of the time or dead in 2 seconds after you regain agro </P> <P>This also Would Add to group's Allowing the MT to perform thier Job instead of let tank tank for first 10 second's of fight and THEN all Go CRazy Dp's Agro all over DP's burn down mob ;  ( </P> <P> </P> <P>P.s. the Above Idea is a way for SOE to be able to not have to Nerf any class , </P> <P> </P> <P>Anybody care to disagree????? or have a Better suggestion ???????   as i'm sick of mob's dieng in 30 second's and losing agro every fight , if they just Do the above people would actually NEED the MT to MT   (thank you Good friend's for still letting me MT even tho i know you could be giong faster if you weren't carrying me in this time of the Gimped tank's )   </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Araxes]

Except ... as stated by SOE prior to the CU ... The entire reason for doing the CU changes was to get rid of that bloated HP issue. Nice catch 22 isn't it? <div></div>

[Alevyan]

Yeah, tanks were soloing con oranges and loosing fractions of their HP pool, not very challenging at all. I still do it as a Shadow Knight.. .. But I'm a Shadow Knight.. Shadow Knights don't die. <div></div>

[Giral]

<P>yeah it is a nice catch 22 but it's apparent that mob's Die 2 fast and that lead's to the Dp's classes flurishing and the healer's in second and tanks in last place    :smileyvery-happy:     </P> <P>i'm not talking Drastic change's but a minor Up in Mob's HP and a Minor lowering in the Mob's Dp's as Mage's shouldn't be able to with stand more than 1 to 2 hit's off a Orange con ^ ^ ^ mob and even if you lowered Orange Con Mob's Dp's by 5 %  and upped there Hp by 5 % it would still mean death to a mage in 1 to 2 hit's or should and i'm pretty sure they would be OOP befor they could Burn them down even in group's with a healer it would be more benifical to have a tank keep the mob focused the healer heal tank and the tank add some dps to offset the raised HP on mob's</P> <P>and to reply to ALe : increased Mob HP would mean also Harder for Tank's to Solo Even Shadowknight's becuase we also would Be OOP by end of a fight agains a Orange con mob : P </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 AM</span>

[NightGod473]

5% change isn't going to make that huge of a difference.Trying to solo orange cons is pretty crazy, anyway-WAY too many resists/misses.<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<P>Why reduce mob dps? Healing is already too easy. Only on those special nameds do you ever need 2 healers. Most of the time I am actually dps, sort of :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I am all for making fights last longer though</P>

[Magu]

Tanks can hold aggro just fine. The DPS classes just need to learn some aggro management. You can't go all out right away, but you don't need to sit there doing nothing for a long time either. Just pace yourself and things work fine. <div></div>

[Mabes]

<DIV>Yeah, from my experiences as a healer, some tanks I group with often almost always hold the aggro, while others not so much.  I don't know if it's because of higher level taunt spells, or what, but I haven't seen too much of a problem in it.</DIV>

[Magu]

It involves the level of the taunts, the skill of the tank, and the skill of the other players. The problem is that people seem to think that it should be absolutely impossible for a tank to lose aggro without even worrying about it. But if that was the case, where would the challenge be? <div></div>

[Giral]

<DIV>Magus wrote : It involves the level of the taunts, the skill of the tank, and the skill of the other players.<BR><BR>The problem is that people seem to think that it should be absolutely impossible for a tank to lose aggro without even worrying about it.<BR><BR>But if that was the case, where would the challenge be?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Played a Shadowknight since release SO please tell me How i don't know how to work my Agro, How i don't like Challenge in my Game play ? if that was the case i could have Rolled a Guard Post re-vamp .  I worked Very very hard at being a great MT post re-vamp and i succeded, It was Challenging BUT challenging NOT FUSTRATING  and i could succed in Holding and maintaining agro 90 % of the time ON all mob's off all classes If i Worked my Behind OFF i could do it No question but it took Ton's of work BUT that work Paid OFF , NOW i don't have a 80 to 90 % chance to Maintain AGro NO MATTER how hard i work , i can lose it Non-stop All Night Long <<<<<--------equals pathetic that 80 % of the classes in game(and some classes 12 levels BELOW ME Yes   "12 "  Levels BELOW me can Pull my agro is that at all Fiar in your eye's ? ) Can Out Agro a Tank Who's Main Function is AGRO Control , i should be holding agro 80 to 90 % of the time i should be able to regain agro atleast 75 % of the time = Hard work Pays off MOST of the time ,  HAving the game set up with Agro being strictlyu in the DP's Hand's is a FARCE and it OBVIOUSLY isn't Working as intended IF you havn't noticed the 15,001 post's about Agro Problem's </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i love challenge but where is the challenge in Not being needed in 70 % of group's and 100 % if your not MT ?? that's not challenge that's [Removed for Content] </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>be-for revamp other Classes HAD to control thier agro   or    90 % of the time they DIED , now they have a 10 % chance of death NO group Wipe(mob will be Burnt down 5 second's after the one party member dies&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No Debt , No Shard, NO Loss,  = your not actualy  needed  to Tank  but  your friends are being nice and helping you thru your gimped period </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not asking for a Godly tuant don't know how you came to that conclussion in this thread? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I'm not asking for Classes to be Nerfed , don't wan't any Classes Nerfeds , I  Wan't a Real Playable Roll as a Maint Tank that equal's to Me Working Just as Hard trying to COntrol Agro = a Warlock Giong Full out on DP's He's the Dp's Master , Shouldn't i Be the Agro MAster IT IS MY MAIN FUNCTION </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm asking for a slight Increase in Mob's HP so fight's last a Little longer, Tank are a More desired class to group with in a Traditional Group set up as in Befor re-vamp,  Dev's Could UP the Mob's Damage on Test by a 5 % increase , then go up another 1 % , and then Another 1 % , till it Pan's out that Grouped to Kill HARD mob's you would be MOST efficient with a TANK class as a TANK</DIV> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Magu]

Upping mob HP won't make tanks more desirable though. You're looking at unrelated items and thinking they'll matter. Even moreso, if you upped HP and lowered DPS, it would be even easier for a group to go without a tank. <div></div>

[Quazaris]

<DIV>I dont see how raising the HP and lowering the DPS is going to help a Tank.  I fiddle around with a couple Alt Combo's and the amount of Mob HP's are the problem with my Guardian/Defiler Combo.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Guardian can take a beating but it takes a week to bring the mob down. All my defiler does is throw a ward up every once in awhile and nukes the rest of the time. Looooooong slow fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they were to raise the HP's  and lower the DPS I would be able to Go make a cup of coffee during the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if its on Raid mobs you are talking about. The fights now are already all about the mobs HP's  and just controling you raids DPS output so they dont peal. at least thats the way it is for T5. T6 I do not know as I have only done LJ. But from what I hear about T6 is , that it is more about how well your clock watcher is for the Jousting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nibbl]

<DIV>Agree somewhat with OP, increase heroic mobs hp but leave dps alone.  Many heroic mobs are no challenge for groups and in many cases a scout can tank them.  Did Roost last night in 22 minutes, mobs conned yellow and orange to the group.  Mobs were dropping so fast I could hear the healer yawning.  Not sure how many mobs are in the Roost, but it seemed each encounter lasted less then 20 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, only talking about mobs designed for groups.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[ganng]

<P>/raises hand</P> <P>lv 57 Shadow Knight without any agro issues actually finding it 100% easier to hold agro than ever before.  Do I just group with smarter players?</P>

[infernus006]

"Warlock Giong Full out on DP's He's the Dp's Master , Shouldn't i Be the Agro MAster IT IS MY MAIN FUNCTION" i agree.  the workload of aggro management in groups is so grossly imbalance against the tank right now it's truely pathetic.  and we just barely have more hp than other classes now too.  imo all fighters but especially plate tanks are seriously gimped in their abilities compared to other types of classes and it really does need to get fixed because there's not much of a reason for anyone to even bother playing a tank class anymore.  it's too easy for us to lose aggro and when we do it's usually not that big of a deal anyway since all the dps classes (including casters) can either take or avoid damage almost as well as we can.  so then what real purpose do we have anymore? <div></div>

[NightGod473]

"Warlock Giong Full out on DP's He's the Dp's Master , Shouldn't i Be the Agro MAster IT IS MY MAIN FUNCTION"Part of a Warlock (or any class) being a 'DPS Master' is them being intelligent enough to control their agro-you're nothing more than the master of being a smear on a rock if you over-agro. Agro control is supposed to be a two-way road, the burden of avoiding agro falls on the DPS classes as much as holding it falls on the tank.Makes me miss the EQLive days-agro control was an artform in the right groups-all I ever see these days in most groups is DPS classes going full out and tanks scrambling franticly to keep up and the mobs dying so quick it doesn't really matter in the end, anyway.<div></div>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>ganng wrote:<div></div> <p>/raises hand</p> <p>lv 57 Shadow Knight without any agro issues actually finding it 100% easier to hold agro than ever before.  Do I just group with smarter players?</p><hr></blockquote> Based on that, yes. Agro control is not just the responsibility of one member of the group/raid, it is the responsibility of -all- members.  The tank is there to focus the agro and to position the taget and to try to provide a way for the high damage people to increase their DPS potential (which means -actively- working to keep the agro if at all possible).  It is the rest of the group/raid's responsibility is to -not- take agro from the tank.  If that means holding back a little on damge or timing the kinds of damage spells (i.e. not casting a big nuke or heal or ward timed to hit just as the target is pulled), that's what it means.  Maximum damage is -not- always the optimal strategy.  Anyone who thinks it is.. well.. deserves to die from pulling agro where he shouldn't (and, even though I am not an enchanter, I think it stinks that enchanters are the ones more likely to die from someone "accidentally" attacking their mezzed targets, they pay the price of someone else's idiocy).</span><div></div>

[Carna]

<P>It's my personal opinion that a full 1/2 of what makes a good tank is their reactions time and the speed with which they act... aquire targets, change targets, grab loose aggro etc. I don't think it coincidence that those tanks that are immediately onto the next target and working hold aggro while those that just seem downright sluggish have aggro problems.</P> <P>The good tanks are good tanks because they're active and snappy.... I'm only just entering the mid levels as a Brigand, so I'm sure I'm oversimplifying subtler elements that crop up in the later game. It just seems to me it's obvious at my level why some tanks suck at tanking.</P>

[Quijonsith]

<DIV>I've been asking for an increase in mob HP for a while.  Healing is just way to easy on my templar.  The fights don't last long enough for half of my utility to do anything.  Pre-CU my utility heals did something.  They actually augmented my healing.  Now half of them are only useful in duoing where the fight is gonna last.  I always found it more fun to take on heroic mobs where each fight lasted a while and we actually had to use strategy and skill instead of blasting away.</DIV>

[Quijonsith]

And on a side note, I also play a 47 monk.  I've been able to hold aggro quite well, but it is also up to the dps classes to know how much is too much.  Any dps class will pull aggro off a tank if they unload off the bat when the tank hasn't had time to build up initial aggro.

[Giral]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:And on a side note, I also play a 47 monk.  I've been able to hold aggro quite well, but it is also up to the dps classes to know how much is too much.  Any dps class will pull aggro off a tank if they unload off the bat when the tank hasn't had time to build up initial aggro.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's all well and good for Upfront Tank's but what about Tuant over time tank's like Sk's? the Dp's can't Release until the last 20 to 25 % of the fight and even then they can still pull agro, and how many dp's want to go slow every single fight every single mob everysingle encounter for hour's ? Not many what;s the fun of a 30 second fight you can only attack in the last 8 second's of? 

[Cynto]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:And on a side note, I also play a 47 monk.  I've been able to hold aggro quite well, but it is also up to the dps classes to know how much is too much.  Any dps class will pull aggro off a tank if they unload off the bat when the tank hasn't had time to build up initial aggro.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That's all well and good for Upfront Tank's but what about Tuant over time tank's like Sk's? the Dp's can't Release until the last 20 to 25 % of the fight and even then they can still pull agro, and how many dp's want to go slow every single fight every single mob everysingle encounter for hour's ? Not many <strong>what;s the fun of a 30 second fight you can only attack in the last 8 second's of?</strong> <hr></blockquote><p>The fights are only lasting 30 seconds because most DPS classes spam their attacks. IF they used some form of moderation in their attack methods, the fights would last longer and they would still get to do their attacks. I can understand why you would want to increase mob hitpoints, however, i've already experienced the opposite of this spectrum of mob HPs in EQ1 where killing a trash mob took forever and a half. I would rather have it the way it is now than that way personally.</p><p>Also, it is the job of a Tank to hold aggro, but like others have said, that dosn't mean that all other classes are off the hook for trying to not get aggro, its a 2 way street, if one or the other screws off then someone is going to get beat on that shouldn't.</p>

[Giral]

<div></div><div>i'm talking about Minor increment's of upping the mob's Hp to a viable point that Group's take long enough that we all have time to perform our job's, If DP's can burn a Mob down in 30'second's then That's FAster exp, faster leveling,faster questing, right? But that doesn't equal a Group working as a team !</div><div> </div><div>So if they tweaked Hp up in minor increment's to a point that say 1 fight take enough time for A) tank to establish Agro , B) Ward's and Reactive heal's to actually be usefull,C) Dp's to start out slow work into their Nuke's</div><div> </div><div>ok so let's take Sk's as an example since we Taunt over time , If there is NO time involved how can our tuant's work : )</div><div> </div><div>Dev's usually will tweak something to Far one way or another so if they tweak Hp's up 30 % off the bat then yeah fight's would last Way to long and the whole group would be OOP on every single mob.</div><div> </div><div>If they increase mobs HP by 5% then 1 % then 1 % etc.... till it Pan's out that a Mob takes Just long enough to be Challenging,Fun, Rewarding, and a GROUP effort , than i think that would be a Possitive change increasing mob's hp by 8 % wouldn't be a Hugemongous change it would make a fight take what an extra 30 to 40 second's Would that be Game breaking ? i Don't think so ,</div><div> </div><div>Tank's are Gion OOP almost every pull, tank's are Working 5 times harder in group's then any other class(i prefer that but Only if it Pay's off), and even after all that Tanks can still lose agro way to easily and most times not get it back befor the end of the Way to Fast fight,</div><div> </div>

[Triyton]

<div></div><p><font size="3">DoF also nerfed mob toughness, including if not limited to HP.  If The Roost was located off or Rivervale instead of the Sinking Sands they would be several levels tougher than an equivalent DoF mob, and all those groups of oranges would not be juiced in 30 seconds.</font></p><p><font size="3">I don't complain when the tank can hold perfect aggro in The Roost.  Pacing myself then means using my AOE nuke before my heavier AOE DoT.  But if I wait too long the first mob might be dead before I can get them both in, and I will get a dead-target message before it goes off.  If his aggro isn't perfect, well not every player can afford Adept3's and Master's all around can they?  So yes it is up to me to pace myself.  And each mage and priest has some sort of emergency hate reducer, but with a long recast time.</font></p><p><font size="3">But ho-hum isn't as much fun as a challenge, a little longer fight would be fine.  Just don't put the fights out of reach of casual players and casual guilds.  The combat revamp created a big spread between levels of spell/art upgrades, maybe too big.     Balance things to make it hard for a group of mostly well outfitted players and you risk making it too challenging for others.</font></p><p><font size="3"></font> </p>

[dreadfa]

<div></div><p>Hmm...if the mobs had more hitpoints...that would mean my warlock might get a spell off before the [Removed for Content] mob dies. Hell we might actually assist the tank and get an AE off!</p><p>Yup, raise the mobs' hitpoints or lower sorceror cast times, either way is fine with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Giral]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>dreadfang wrote:<div></div><p>Hmm...if the mobs had more hitpoints...that would mean my warlock might get a spell off before the [Removed for Content] mob dies. Hell we might actually assist the tank and get an AE off!</p><p>Yup, raise the mobs' hitpoints or lower sorceror cast times, either way is fine with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>LoL Yeah And healer's could actually use all their skill's and so could scout's , and Hey so could Tank's, and hey fight might last long enough to have a reason to Let the Tank Tank becuase if Dp's don't control thier agro healer will be gion OOP faster becuase of longer fight's so Every body has to keep an eye on power bar's again : ) = Work as a team becuase you" have to" not becuase the fight's are so fast there is no reason to work as a team except to be nice to the MT(who you can do without)

[Kaknya]

<<<font size="3">If his aggro isn't perfect, well not every player can afford Adept3's and Master's all around can they?  So yes it is up to me to pace myself.  And each mage and priest has some sort of emergency hate reducer, but with a long recast time.>>you can actually buy adept 3's and masters? I live on the test server, and unless you make all your own alts to do tradeskilling and make all your spells armor, etc. It's very hard to get much of anything. only masters i have are the master 2's, most of what i have is adept 1 with a couple of app2's in there that i haven't been able to find. The armor that i have is the beetle armor from the npc in ss, and am currently a lvl 47 paladin. Atleast i have my Ebbc, but i know in almost every group ive been in on test my level, I end up spamming taunts like crazy and going oom. And still loose agro.</font><div></div>